Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.

Random site redesign thoughts

by Colman Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:21:15 AM EST

This started as a comment but I began to ramble ...

As part of an interface redesign during the site move - coming soon to a server rather nearer you - I'd like to make the thing more consistent.

I'd like a consistent right-hand bar through-out the site (for ease of use), a front-page on a dKos type layout except with something more useful than ads in the second column (I'm thinking headlines from other related sites, user configurable to some extent) and a move of that bloody logo to somewhere it doesn't just complicate the bloody design. (sigh)

The logic here is that it would be nice to display the headlines from related sites - Oil Drum Europe, the putative ThatBritBlog, other language blogs related to ET

a) in a box that always shows the top ten headlines from the "network".

b) in boxes that show the top ten headlines from each blog in the "network". Users could configure which of these showed up.

I feel that this is one way of increasing ET's reach and influence: alliances with like-minded people rather than trying to build a single huge blog "like dKos" which I don't think is even possible in the European situation.

The consistent right-hand column is just for ease of use - the various boxes seem to hop all around the place depending on what page you're on.


Display:
I'm not proposing to change the graphic design look of the site unless there are some obvious shortcomings.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:32:53 AM EST
If there's a hole somewhere where you'd like to see the logo fit, I'm sure there's the design talent lying around ET to make it happen.

No more "waiting for crispads" is such a brilliant thing I can't begin to praise it enough.

I like your syndication ideas. And personally I liked the idea of separating "user menus" from the "content menus." Speaking of which I have a block called "Menu" which seems to duplicate the "Home" button at the top. Likewise the block "Metatone" ($Username) repeats the menu "Metatone's Page." This suggests we could do some moving around of stuff to reduce duplication, freeing up space for other stuff.

Personally I think the "drop down" of Booman Tribune doesn't quite work, so maybe it needs rethinking? Specifically, since it only shows up when I roll over it, I never see it. And once I've conceived the intention to look, it's as easy to go to BT and look, because sometimes the titles are a bit cryptic.

For myself, I'd say syndication needs to sit in an always visible box. But maybe other people use the dropdown a lot?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the networking part of Scoop, or can it take a generic RSS feed and Scoopify it?

If it's the latter and anyone can play it could be interesting to have a long list of affilate blogs at the left, and show their current headlines in mouse-over drop-downs. That would allow quicker access to other sites, more of an overview of what's happening out there, and also more of a networky sense of wider involvement.

If you try to show titles and headlines without drop-downs, if the available space only allows two or three headline lists and the network grows, you're going to get an increasingly small slice of what's happening out there.

Although I suppose it could be a combination of both, with your favourite two or three sites shows in full and drop downs for the rest.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:53:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can we also please have better RSS feeds of ET's content?

The current one does only "stories" and misses any promoted diaries to the Front Page. There would have to be a proper "frontpage" feed, as well as a (10 most) "recent diaries" feed and a (10 most) "recommended diaries" feeds.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:56:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Believe me, a proper RSS feed is high on the list of things I want to see.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:00:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a Scoop "include an RSS feed" feature.

Embedding headlines for lots of pages would make the page very big very quickly unless you're doing something AJAX like.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would recommend a paypal, or that sort of thing, that we could pay to. And then I would like to see a space somewhere (maybe lower down the scroll), where community members could pay for ads that talk about our projects. (For example, i would like to be able to raise money for my "action research" that directly helps kids...so some sort of ad would be worth my while...and how much would that cost??)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:38:17 AM EST
I'm happy to go with majority opinion, so I'll just say my tuppenceworth then shurrup.

I'd like to keep requests for money away from the front page.  When I'm surfing, I wanna read or see or listen or mixes of all of 'em...  It's only if I'm drawn into a site that I then get a sense of moving...inside...

But I know things have to be paid for.  So, I'd suggest going back over Migeru's well-thought-out plan of action re: the ET LLP, and your project can be number one in the list of things ET can finance.

I really, really like Colman's idea:

I feel that this is one way of increasing ET's reach and influence: alliances with like-minded people rather than trying to build a single huge blog "like dKos"

Maybe it's because I grew up on TV without adverts--I just don't like people asking for money...in the middle of something else.  I prefer a licence-fee system, but due to the open nature of the site there will be some who pay for others to appreciate, sorta like here in the UK, where we pay for the BBC, but the whole world can watch...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:01:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No problem...I'm not attached to the idea...just an thought...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Start by making the top row of pull-down menus span the entire width of the page and not the just the central column, so that you have room for two or three more buttons/menus.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:40:37 AM EST
For instance, for this purpose
The logic here is that it would be nice to display the headlines from related sites - Oil Drum Europe, the putative ThatBritBlog, other language blogs related to ET
a) in a box that always shows the top ten headlines from the "network".
b) in boxes that show the top ten headlines from each blog in the "network". Users could configure which of these showed up.


"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:48:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"someone" mentioned putting the rec list/recent diary list on every page. Personally I like that idea, as I mostly seem to see them when they show up when I'm posting a comment. Like right now.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:48:40 AM EST
It makes page lay-out sort of awkward as it is ... though a proper clean-up of the page souce might fix that.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was meant to be in reply to your comment about the logo, above.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 06:50:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I had that feeling too, so maybe it makes your life easier if you can define what size/shape/format the logo should be in?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:09:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why don't we just revoke (actually, reverse) Colman's first comment that this is not about the graphic design? There's a lot of untapped talent here.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:13:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like the graphic design the colour scheme. It's simple, does the job, and it's free of clutter.

I hate most recent web site design with a passion, because it's so blatant and intrusive. I think the best design you can have is design you don't notice at all, and ET wins big on that score.

It's better than dKos and the Oil Drum, because the fixed width of dKos is annoying, and the Oil Drum looks too big and gawky in comparison.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:39:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See? That's just what I meant.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:44:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Keep it simple.

Doing a quick scan of the Front Page there are 3 blocks of information:

  1.  Front Page Diaries
  2.  User Diaries - Recommended, Debate, Recent
  3.  Banner - Navagation Aids

You can add two more blocks before the site will start to create information overload for the new or casual user.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 01:58:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A short wish list of things I can think of right now:
  1. A confirmation popup when a rating other than '4' is given. To eliminate accidental down ratings, and give people a second chance to think about what they are doing.
  2. User definable macros. As I mentioned here:

This is something that could work better in so many ways. Let me throw out some thoughts on the subject.

User created macros. Scoop should allow users to create macros to promote the development of better text entry. We already have stuff like *some text* for bolding some text. I.e. one could define a macro to transform L{link, link text} to <a href="link"> link</a>, and many much more complicated things. One should probably disallow recursion. My first though is that a LaTeX like syntax might be convenient. Users would define macros in their settings view and they would be public. Add to this the possibility of keeping track of the number of users who have a macro implemented and we get a list of popular ones that people have found useful to be easily chosen from by those who don't want to create their own. Each time a macro is copied the original creator gets some mojo, thereby integrating it in the mojoconomy. Maybe with some depreciation over time to not create macro fat cats who got in at the beginning of the game and thought up all the easy ones.

by someone on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 12:17:30 AM MET


Could be very exciting as a kind of collaborative, collective evolutionary process on how posted text looks, and how we interact with the software environment.

I would love the opportunity to play with the guts of Scoop at some point. I can code alright, my talents might serve the community better here than on writing stories/comment, which I don't do all that much of.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:36:40 AM EST
How about non-numeric ratings?
  • Excellent
  • Agree
  • Disagree
  • Warning
  • Troll
  • Mega-troll
With majority voting instead of mean numerical score, and majority of (Mega-)Troll with at least one mega-troll for hiding.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 07:43:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Multi-dimensional ratings! One dim. for agreement, one for quality?
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh.

We could see "I agree but you're being a troll" ratings and "I hate what you're saying but I'd die to defend your right to say it" ratings.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:03:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both things I have thought at times.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:05:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And we could show a ratings scatterplot beside each comment.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:05:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I love it!
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In general, decoupling agreement and quality would be a good thing. There should be an explicit way for people to recognise good writing they disagree with, and the converse.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:09:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also for diaries?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:13:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The explicit way seems to me to be... a comment?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 09:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, in particular if you want to elaborate on some point. With a view to longer comment threads it seems that the efficiency of a rating to say 'agree' should not be discounted. I would also be interested to see if a multi-dimensional system would encourage people to think in these terms more. One would also be able to collect data this way, which a response comment doesn't allow.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 09:30:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but we don't need 10 comments saying the same thing. I avoid writing quite a few comments because people have already said what I would have said.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 01:41:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't like "me too", "agreed", or "hear, hear" comments.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 06:22:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hear, hear! me too!
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 04:36:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, no! I've created a monster!

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:07:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I don't know we need to be constrained by two-dimensions. We could add some others - humour quality for instance and use Chernoff faces to display the results.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:13:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And if we colour-coded the Chernoff faces ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:14:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Be careful, you'd get accusations of racism.

Something less anthropomorphic than faces...

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:15:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Racism? From Chernoff faces color-coded in primary colors?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, those are all old (bald) white men!

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:20:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry.. but fuc* all those fuc** bastards who say that face expretion is in the fuck*g face...is the freaking gene of the time. that we all have predetermined. To the hell with all of them.

I have neve never NEVER understood what the freaking faces mean... other than a smile code which I do understand given the universality around me about a smile being nice... I have never never been able to understand thos fr--fuc*ing faces!!!!!

Enough is enough!!! NO faces dimesnionality in the comment rating.

I have said.. and rest my case. Your honour.

Sincerly yours

Mr/Mrs Boldface.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 12:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Chernoff faces per se were intended to encode many additional dimensions into a 2D scatterplot, exploiting human face-image brainware to let people easily see groupings and outliers in those additional dimensions. The proposed application seems different enough that directly expressive, non-Chernoff faces might be better.

That said, I'd prefer to see an emphasis on the cooler, cognitive dimensions of response, and faces seem to me to pull in the opposite direction. In other words, I hate the idea and it makes me angry! Besides, it would devalue html abuse and buffoonery.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 02:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know what half these faces mean.  

None of them look very happy.  I mean, I don't think anyone here will be mistaking me for Pollyanna, but . . .

I think I have just about mastered  
:)
;)  
:D  
:/  
:(
and
:O
But
;(  
and
;O
stil give me trouble.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Animated as well!
(I did start doing some work a POV-Ray generated animation scheme for displaying community mojo flows in some 3-d colour graph type thing. But then I got side tracked while rendering stuff, and could not make up my mind about representation of the data. Maybe some day I'll finish this movie.)
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, by the way, we can then use the ratings and bayesian analysis to show people what other users they are more likely to agree/disagree with, as well as "if you enjoyed this diary, you might also enjoy this other ones". or "if you found this comment hilarious, wait until you see these".

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And don't forget the rest of Technopolitical's wishlist.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:20:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw that one of them, internal username-based email, is implemented at TPM Cafe. It's also a feature of an unmentionable site that has been a centre of political activity for many years now.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 02:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did I remember to mention expandable/collapsible comments (affecting their appended threads, of course). Giving commenters the ability to post default-closed comments (default-open to their recipients) would add a useful dimension of expressiveness, enabling one to say something that is a distraction from the main thread, but appropriate in a more local sense.

A further refinement would be to provide a rating dimension that can change default-open to default-closed for subsequent readers. This would be far short of calling "Troll!", but would gently say, "This doesn't really fit here", and move the comment out of the way.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 02:52:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you tried the "dinamic threaded" or "dynamic minimal" comment display options currently available on ET? You can test them by using the pul-down menu between any diary and its comments.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 06:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've taken a look; they  don't do what I suggest, of course, but they do decrease the cost of the problem that my suggestion is intended to address.

The mode I picture would, in its default behavior, act like the current default "nested" mode. It would increase expressiveness chiefly by by enabling commenters to choose an unobtrusive way to post. With this option available, I imagine that there would be moderate community pressure on commenters to select the full-display mode only for comments intended to advance the general discussion (vs., say, making a minor correction to another commenter, a semi-private joke, etc.).

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 02:45:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[candidate default-collapsed comment:]

Did you know that Google thinks that you are the only person in the universe responsible for the mysterious character string, "It's the statue, man, The Statue."?

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 03:10:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That actually conforms to Stigler's Law of Eponimy, namely, that nothing is attributed to the person that originated it.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 11:18:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"nothing is attributed to the person that originated it"?

Who said that?

And "It's the statue...."?

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 12:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stigler did say that no scientific discovery is named after its discovery, and my sig is thatbritguy's.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 01:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And therefore needs no explanation.

?

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 02:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What needs no explanation? My signature?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 03:58:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Transparent.
Illuminating.
Gleaming.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 02:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So we could say...

If you liked this...

You might enjoy this...



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:50:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
lol, ET marries amazon!

i foresee software that would analyse your comment for various attributes, then feed you back a sophisticated composite graphic rendition of your socio-political tendencies...

it might be interesting to track mojo and make graphs of how it's chains and accumulations interlink the posters.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 05:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now all we need is a 3-D style phase-space animated gif series, which reads off the mix of responses...maybe one response, no pic.  A couple of responses, you see a simple design (have a few in there to stop it all becoming--irritating--) and as the ratings mounted up the design would become more complex...

The trick is...you can't easily find out the ratings--unless you posted the comment.  All the others can see are simple or more complex shapes, developing over time.  But if one has access to one's own ratings, and can see one's own shapes, one will learn what the shapes mean...but they will never have a binary meaning..once they start up, they're endlessly flexible (two "4" ratings, for example, would give a relatively simple diagram in, say, five variations...so once you've seen all five you get the idea...but a comment with fifteen ratings on two (or three!  No!) different scales...and raters could choose how many scales to rate on...oh my word...

I'm scaring myself.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:16:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wrote "responses" but I meant ratings, not replies.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:17:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
4i
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or 4+4i?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:20:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Enough!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 09:24:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But Uncle afew, we was just getting started!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 09:30:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, all right, but you'd better clear up afterwards, or else.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 10:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ooh, lissajous figures!

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:21:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For you, sir.



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But yes...lines...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
rg, I think you are a visionary!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 09:45:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For you Bob...

Ach!  Don't ask me why Bob...I've spent an hour or two searching for a...song for you, or a video...

So: a short sitar lesson.

Carl Jung on individuality.

And, er, er....(hours of ers....) er...

Yeah!  The Killers!  "When You Were Young."

Always enjoyable to read your words, Bob!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 11:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps "confusing" v. "very well said" would be a useful dimension? Or "novel" v. "redundant"?

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 02:30:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is much to be said for independent dimensions, and a simple set of them. I like your suggestion of "agreement" and "quality" as a pair.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 02:39:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i wish the rec button was at the bottom of the diary, so i don't have to scroll up.

when i give a 4, my space bar doesn't work till i click low on the screen, highlight some text, then it will work again.

anyone else getting this?

the other wish would be that the rec could be coded so it rated all the comments in one click.

say you'd given 5 '4's, and wanted to recommend as well.

the rec button would take care of the ratings too!

i also wish people used 2's and 3's more, it would be more textured and less codependent, imo.

since we got them!

or toss 'em out and just have an option to rec the comment or not.

seems cleaner somehow.

the text highlight bug is v. annoying, the others are minor.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 04:34:08 PM EST
to put it in the recommended list.  

Rating expresses an opinion.  

While I often do both, frequently I only do one or the other.  

I gave up 3s after I saw how they can function as damning with faint praise.  And since they can also be given by accident, If I MEAN to damn with faint praise, better I should write a comment that DOES that.  

And 2s mean something is wrong with the comment.  But usually it is better I should say what, or just give a 1 and be done with it.  

And of course 0s are for action, just like the RECOMMEND.  

The point being most things I don't rate at all.  Reading a blog is not like being a schoolteacher!  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:50:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i've decided that 3's are a good way to say i don't agree with you, but i think your point advances the discussion.

2 is a warning, just like it says...for when someone is getting too stroppy.

(short for 'obstreperous', i think!)

ratings are a good way to communicate when not feeling chatty, but if it worked as dkos does, it would be less hassle and i think more peeps would use them.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 05:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the interest of continuity and free-flowing conversations, I'd like to see individual links to comments that are replies to my own comments. This is implemented on another scoop site that I use. They show up underneath the user box in the right hand column and disappear after I click on them or when I view the thread that the reply is in. I spend too much time essentially memorizing the appearance of my comments page trying to figure out if people have replied to my comments. Any replies to my comments over two days old are almost certainly missed. I think it would be particularly useful for a site like this where long, dense conversations often occur.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Jan 12th, 2007 at 08:53:01 PM EST
(You found me!--heh heh...I sorta know what you mean and agree.  There's the relationship between the user and the site, how does the user negotiate their own input, their comments etc...--a good example--maybe slightly sideways, but Trond Ove put up a diary yesterday with two hour+plus videos.  I want to watch them and then comment, but that'll take a few days, by which time the diary will be gone from the lists...so if Trond Ove had the easiest possible way of knowing that his diary had received a new comment...and ditto for comments...which is why I snuck this one in here--er, something something!)

;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Jan 13th, 2007 at 05:35:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jan 15th, 2007 at 01:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"...I spend too much time essentially memorizing the appearance of my comments page trying to figure out if people have replied to my comments...."

Yes! At the very least, there should be a display that lists replies to ones comments in reverse time-order, rather than listing the comments themselves. I'd prefer that this be the default mode for viewing my comments.

This would have the emergent virtue of allowing older diaries to support ongoing discussions. If one were to reply to a comment, the author would see it, no matter how old the thread. With the "recent comments" feature, the renewed discussion could perhaps draw the attention of the broader community.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 02:55:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about a PDA version?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 14th, 2007 at 04:56:22 AM EST
in Scoop, is the deeper collaboration capabilities.

By this I mean the possibility of also focusing on action: LTEs, Reports (the simplest froms) etc. ie 'Community to the Outside World' communications. This kind of activity tends to involve subgroups within ET = visible to all, but contributions mainly from 'experts'.

Afew has recounted his experiences of trying to collate comments, edits, multiple version of documents etc. I believe it was quite stressful - especially where there was a deadline. Add in graphics, videos, sound and other tools of communication, and the problem starts to grow exponentially. Apparently, such ET projects tend to go offine, because the project tools are not available.

I don't want to start the Scoop v new software debate again, but I have had some experience over the last year looking at online collaborative software. We've been checking the latest videoconferencing stuff, freely configurable workgroup forums, all sorts. I am thinking about the future, not today.

The most effective demonstrations have been of software that allow the formation of different work groups beneath a front end of what might be called a macro workgroup, very much like ET. ie a public community blog of self-styled experts/seekers. These workgroups have multiple levels of access, with only those tools that an individual's acccess level allows the use of, visible. These tools include the manipulation of master documents (meaning any data files not just text). In most cases that we saw, it was also possible to drag and drop almost and kind of file into a workgroup. There are usually instant messaging systems incorporated - like html real time chats, IM etc.

We've now identified the best solution for our SOS purposes. And we'll probably be partnering this company (Finnish) because our aims are very similar. But off the shelf, it is a big and (relatively to Scoop) expensive program, and you need a lot of server space because of file sizes. So it is not for ET yet. But in a few months we hope to have it up and running, so you'll be able to see how it feels and works.

I like the non-design of ET. It is simple and clean. But it is still largely text based. That means it offers only one method of communication. That suits many people, but not everyone. With a long career in films, and now other audio-visual media, I work in pictures and sounds. In the process of communication with an audience, hardly any text is used in the way we use it here - except at the beginning and end of a movie. Of course there is a lot of text used in the creation/production of a movie, but it reaches the screen in a translated form.

And that is really my point. The macrocosm of diaries and comments here cannot be copypasted into the outside world. It needs to be translated in order for it to work in a particular communication channel with a particular audience. But without the collaborative tools to easily acccomplish that, it is not going to happen - except where the communication channels most closely resemble ET, such as LTEs and Reports to bureaucrats. snark

BTW What I'd really like personally is a direct link to wikipedia ;-)
Never in my life have I spent so much time looking stuff up, as here on ET! In fact what I would really like is the ability to click on, or roll over,  any word or phrase in any comment or diary and instantly get a small pop-up with the first 5 lines of the wiki entry in it. The writer does not need to concern themselves with these links, of course - a widget would go out and look for them undercover.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jan 15th, 2007 at 12:34:31 PM EST
DO you use Firefox? I believe there is a plugin that does the wikipedia lookup that way.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jan 15th, 2007 at 02:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mostly use Safari, but Firefox sometimes. Of course the work-around is just to have another window open - which is fine when I'm on my big machine with acres of screen space.

But imagine a pop-up!

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jan 15th, 2007 at 03:00:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"By this I mean the possibility of also focusing on action..."

Dreamer.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 03:03:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll take that as a 'yes' ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 07:23:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW What I'd really like personally is a direct link to wikipedia ;-)

er, isn't that migeru's gig?

nice ideas...

on a mac you can highlight a word, hold down the control key and it will offer a choice of a dictionary, google and spotlight to search.

you prolly knew that.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 05:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why have a person do it when you can have a computer? I'm going to have to re-train before Sven makes me redundant.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 04:01:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's an interesting anomaly that I experience with Safari 1.3.2 - my little menu (the 3 boxes under the main menu) jumps from side to side. Sometimes it is under the ET logo, sometimes where it should be over on the richt (viz). Strange...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jan 15th, 2007 at 05:34:37 PM EST
Another thing I'd like is a permanent list of recommended artefacts from the media: books, music, movies, DVDs, sources of all kinds, as well as blog links. Some broad categories would need to be defined. When any category is full, it becomes just a category to click on to expand it.

I would not use the obvious categories, by seperating into media. My categories would be more like: standard stuff (that any educated open-minded person should be aware of), new stuff (keeping us all up to date with what is happening), political stuff, mechanical stuff (how to do it), curious stuff, personal stuff (recommendation is related to that individual), and I am sure you would have your own suggestions.

Each of the categories could contain links to any kind of media.

AND ANOTHER IDEA

Why can't we post visual art on the left under the banner? Max width would be say 50 pxls (whatever the column width is). Click on it to open a window and see it larger. The art would be self contained (unless linked to YouTube eg). It would not have to be attached to any diary.

I think it would be intriguing for passers-by, as well as fun for ETers.

Think of them as ads for culture.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 07:43:58 AM EST


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