Does Capitalism Require Warfare?

by rdf
Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 09:44:55 AM EST

Ever since the rise of the capitalist model there have been continual wars. These are of two types: wars of acquisition (colonial wars) and wars between capitalist powers.

The colonial wars are easy to explain. A growing economy needs access to cheap raw materials and markets for its finished goods. But the wars between states are harder to explain. Just look at late 19th and 20th Century European history. Germany and France fought a war about every 30 years. I don't think there was ever an expectation of permanent conquest and the economic importance of the fringe areas that changed hands can't have been all that central to their economies. So what were they fighting about?

[cross-posted at dailyKos]

From the diaries -- whataboutbob


I'm going to postulate (with no direct evidence) that they were fighting about nothing. My premise is that capitalist economies produce more "stuff" than is needed. That is they are too efficient. So they seek overseas markets. This leads to the colonial wars. India was a perfect example. Cotton was exported to England under unfair conditions, converted to finished goods and sold back to India. We understand this dynamic, but what about Germany and France (or Spain, the Netherlands, Great Britain, etc.)?

After all the wars between France and Germany, the borders ended up pretty much where they started, the economic strength of their respective economies was proportionally the same, and nothing permanent had been achieved. What had happened is that a vast quantity of economic output had been generated in the process of the wars. Not only were there bursts of production to build weapons and similar war making materiel, but the destruction caused by the fighting generated later economic activity in rebuilding. The removal of large numbers of able bodied workers from the productive to the destructive sectors also changed the pressures on capitalism. A permanent standing army also has a lesser, but similar, effect.

The US has had a history of colonial wars, most notably in the Philippines, Hawaii, and the Banana Republics. But, since the end of WWII has shifted to the pattern previously seen in Europe. Wars about nothing. The three biggest have been Korea, Vietnam and Iraq. In every case we had no real colonial interest in the area, their internal affairs were of no concern to us, and their influence on their neighbors was limited. The oil issue in Iraq might seem to contradict this, but in actuality Iraq's oil was readily available on the world market, one just needed to pay for it, and as a percentage of world supply it wasn't enough to control prices.

My thesis is that hyper-capitalist societies develop internal pressures from over-production and this causes a "need" to expend this energy to keep the economy humming. The avenue that most frequently presents itself is warfare. I don't even think this is an overt social policy, I think that the type of mindset that develops in such an environment leads to those with aggressive tendencies, or feelings of unpunished international injustices, rising to positions of leadership. There is a well-known correlation between the amount of armaments a country possess and the frequency that it engages in conflict. Owning weapons causes wars.

Madeleine Albright was heard to have said once: "What's the use of having all these weapons if we're not going to use them?"

The next phase of economically-created warfare seems to lie in space. The US has been building up its space offensive and defensive weapons systems since at least Reagan. The Chinese have just demonstrated a satellite killer missile and we know that other regions are launching spy satellites which are useful for command and control functions during terrestrial actions. Bush has recently released a policy statement threatening any state that even develops capabilities that will threaten our existing, or future, space weapons capabilities. There is also some question as to whether the recently announced Moon base and trip to Mars programs are intended for research or military purposes.

As the pressures on existing supplies of raw materials become greater, the incidence of colonial wars can be expect to increase as well. The question is will the wars about nothing also continue as well? Each new cycle proves more deadly and destructive as weapons systems become more technologically advanced. In addition prior ethical questions about the morality of using certain weapons have faded. Things like cluster bombs, bunker busters and small nukes are be treated as acceptable. Recruiting children as soldiers, raping women as a tactic and ethic cleansing are now used routinely. Rather than warfare becoming less of an issue, it is both growing in frequency and becoming more barbaric.

Even the terminology is evolving so that people are desensitized to death and destruction. In stead of "wanton killing" we have "collateral damage". We commonly accept the notion that it is only a bad thing when civilians die, thus implicitly treating soldiers as non-human. Most soldiers are civilians who have been handed a gun. Their deaths are just as much a tragedy as anyone else's. We are being trained to become numb to warfare. Is it any wonder why the next war gets launched so easily?

I've written many times about the need to transition to a steady-state or sustainable economic model. To the obvious fact that the resources needed to continue consuming at the present rate won't last forever can now be added the issue of wars induced by capitalist economic necessities.

Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
It seems to me that the phenomenon of war is a human behaviour which predates modern capitalism.

Presumably the origin of war lies in the human habit of thinking of groups of humans they do not belong to as the other.

When humans gave up hunter gathering and began to acquire more property than they could carry and see land as an asset to be owned, then they had to fear the other coming and taking away what they had as well as to covet what the other had.

When there was a sufficient surplus of production there was room for a glorified protection racket, with a strongman offering to train professional soldiers to defend against the other. Getting retaliation in first is also an old human habit. So things build to our present state.

Wars can only be fought when there is a surplus of resources to support those doing the fighting. I am not sure however that the particular economic system which produces that surplus is the critical factor.

by Gary J on Sun Jan 28th, 2007 at 02:52:12 PM EST
Here is my simplification: There are two ways to earn a living on this planet. One way is hard work. Other way is robbery. War is nothing but kind of robbery - reaping the benefits of hard work of others. "War of acquisition" is robbery by definition, is it not?!

It is indeed difficult to talk about functionality of war within capitalism when the phenomenon of war is so much older. Empirically speaking, capitalism(s) do not know all own working options well as yet. The modern war does seem to function for certain industrial-political elites in the US in somewhat familiar ways - but that does not necessarily mean that war is playing a role for the capitalism. Rather contrarily, the system that Republican elites is striving for looks more like unbounded feudalism (for the few able reap everythig around).  Their basic instinct is preservation of their wealth and status through generations, and they do it in the most straightforward "tried" way - by limiting de facto possibilities for those still behind, and allowing themselves absolute "freedom". Here warfare indeed works in familiar ways for them. (In fact, freedom of warfare might be considered as one of their traditional freedoms, ha ha.) Somehow they (almost) manage to achieve feudal standings within the modern frames of democracy and even (yes!) capitalism.

by das monde on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 07:13:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
War is not acquisitive, it is destructive. Nobody has ever done a final accounts balance before waging a war. The few people who have done such balances are historians who've come to the conclusion that wars aren't cost-effective. The nation which starts a war usually loses it, and even the victor of a war loses more from its costs than they gain from its benefits.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 01:54:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you conceive of war as an industrial activity distinct from massacres, then what you say is true.

But you seem to conflate massacres with warfare and that makes what you say false.

In particular, you assume that hunter-gatherers did not engage in massacres, which is false.

You also assume that demonization of others is a cause of bloodletting rather than an integral aspect which is in need of explanation.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 01:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are being trained to become numb to warfare. Is it any wonder why the next war gets launched so easily?

In the case of France and Germany, the opposite is true. Both just had an overdose of blood and worked towards becoming the best friends in the world. And this they became. And still capitalist.

by balbuz on Sun Jan 28th, 2007 at 04:19:30 PM EST
Well, France hardly worked towards becoming "best friends" with the Germans immediately after the Second World War. No other occupying power in Germany worked so hard to impose a punitive peace on the Germans.

They became close partners as the Cold War materialised, as I see it, as a counterweight to the Soviet Union but  also to a lesser degree to the US and UK.

So, if one believes Clausewitz's "Der Krieg ist eine bloße Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln" (War is the very continuation of politics by other means), it is difficult not to see the Franco-German relationship as very much a geopolitical marriage of convenience. (Albeit a very happy one, I hasten to add.)

by Trond Ove on Tue Jan 30th, 2007 at 01:59:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Every time I tour Europe I see castles everywhere dating from times long before the industrial age = birth of capitalism.

History in Hawaii pre western contact is full of factional warfare.  I think man just has a big streak of greed/control freak in his nature.  Capitalism may just provide further motivation.

by HiD on Sun Jan 28th, 2007 at 04:29:37 PM EST
i think you're basically correct, and i'd like to add another point:

the pressure to survive unites people in ways that happen rarely in peacetime, and takes the pressure off of trying to design your life - the war becomes the all-deciding reality, and yes i believe there are many who would sooner fight than think, especially young males.

it also covers up the shame of not having designed a life that really actualises the liver of it.

case in point: my grandfather won the MC twice yet was a total flop 'in civvies'.

from respect as hero, to shame...

very unmanning...

aggro covers many a weakness.

If'Madness is the absence of work'(Foucault), then Sanity is the presence of play..

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jan 28th, 2007 at 11:22:20 PM EST
I suppose one could claim that capitalism required war were it not for the small issue that none of the wars we've fought, or are fighting, are necessary to sustain capitalism.  What, exactly, did capitalism gain from Vietnam, or Afghanistan, or Iraq?  One could just as easily, if not more so, argue that war is an enemy of capitalism, as it necessarily drains resources.  Money that could've been spent on iPods is now being blown on Humvees.

That's not to say that wars have not been fought for reasons that are relevant to capitalism, but the claim of requirement is absurd.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 03:51:28 AM EST
Haw about war is as good a keynesian policy as digging money into the ground and back up?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 03:53:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly Iraq has stimulated industries in certain parts of America, but the recovery was already on the way in March of 2003.  And what industries were damaged by the flow of money into the defense industry?

As a basic principle, you're right.  But the principle is not "War is Good".  It's "Reinflating the Economy is Good".  WWII simply served as a great excuse to spend a hell of a lot more money.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 04:02:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany's economy had fully recovered, and then some, by the time it attacked Poland.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 02:00:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anyone know of any War that didn't happen because the combatants ran out of Money?

If our monetary and capital systems can mobilise the human resources necessary for total war, then how come they are unable to handle the absence of it?

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 05:46:42 AM EST
And, more importantly, why do we allow other more desirable things not to happen because of lack of money?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 05:48:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, and for as long as we have a system based upon deficit, this will continue.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 05:55:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you in any way related to these people?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 05:58:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know them well, but am certainly not "related"..

While their analysis of the problems arising from deficit-based money is accurate up to a point, their solution - which is essentially along the lines of CH Douglas's "Social Credit" - doesn't stack up.

IMHO you can't solve the deficit-based money problem without also addressing the issue of Productive Capital, and particularly of Property rights in "Commons" such as Land and Knowledge.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 08:36:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While their analysis of the problems arising from deficit-based money is accurate up to a point, their solution - which is essentially along the lines of CH Douglas's "Social Credit" - doesn't stack up.
Maybe you could do a diary about that?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 08:42:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wars that didn't happen tend not to get much page space in the history books.

But war has always been expensive, and often paid for with borrowed money. Monarchs have regularly been all-but bankrupted by war, and wars have often ended when one or both sides ran out of cash and promises.

Modern banking was more or less invented to help finance military campaigns.

What we have today doesn't require war, although it does seem oddly fond of it. And business often seems to be a sublimation of war, right down to the use of military metaphors, and of war texts as management guides.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 07:04:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
with Scotland because the expense was too heavy.  The Scots did not mind (they were losing) and things settled down to hostilities through diplomacy (and bribing).  

(Bribing was much, much cheaper than war.)  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:11:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A consequence of war is usually to make labor (and workers) more valuable - because it/they have become scarcer, and thus that would appear to not be so favorable to capitalists.

So maybe wars happen when the capitalist system has gone too far in the exploitation of labor and trips over (either because the exploited revolt, or because demagogues, using the lethal combination of economic popumlism and nationalism, bring about destructive regimes - or becuase the elites use war to distract from their economic plunder)?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 08:05:16 AM EST
The thing about the feudal aristocracy, in the Middle Ages in Europe, was that it was a military elite. Power grew from the edge of a sword.

A feudal aristocracy which pays others to fight for it while the nobles stay at home, is just a bunch of parasites. Sooner or later the soldiers will work out that there are easier pickings turning on the aristocrats and stealing their stuff than fighting their enemies.

by Gary J on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 09:25:16 AM EST
Which is how WWI ended.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 02:02:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please forgive me for double-posting this comment: It has been recognized by knowledgeable people (of all political persuasions) that what got the United States out of the Great Depression was NOT Roosevelt's New Deal but the Second World War.

A tangential but important issue might help to answer your question.  Capitalist production must be understood as a process, as Marx said "as motion, not as a thing at rest." In other words, it can endure only so long as the process continues.  The process is driven by the capitalist's desire for money and the necessity of expending the money to earn more money. Thus, as soon as the products or commodities produced are sold, the money is plowed back into production.  I would argue that the primary characterization of capitalism for Marx is the determination of production by exchange, and what others have characterized as the the concomitant emergence of value only in circulation - the interconnection of production and exchange or demand as the economics profession likes to say.

What happened during the depression?  Demand fell, so there were no means for the capitalists to realize their profits.  Roosevelt's New Deal was intended to revive that demand in order to get industry (and capitalists profits) up and running again.  One of the commenters at Daily Kos had a great link that drives this point home:

The normal profits of a business concern in the United States are six, eight, ten, and sometimes twelve percent. But war-time profits - ah! that is another matter - twenty, sixty, one hundred, three hundred, and even eighteen hundred per cent - the sky is the limit. All that traffic will bear. Uncle Sam has the money.

Herein lies a significant destructive tendency of capitalism which is sometimes overlooked.  Demand for goods and services ("exchange" in Marx's words) is central to capitalism.  In addition to the attraction of wars (wars are desireable not only because they create demand for the arms industries, but once concluded, they give way to reconstruction and - therefore - profits), it explains planned obsolescence (why goods are made to wear out after a certain period of time). If capitalists made goods to last, they would be shooting themselves in the foot.  This in turn unnecessarily accelerates the use of our earth's limited resources.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 11:10:43 AM EST
Very few people commented on my thesis that the post-colonial wars were fundamentally about nothing. I don't know if people don't agree or that they are so used to discussing wars over land or resources.

It is true that only a society which has excess capacity can stage a war and thus one could argue that there have been wars about nothing at other periods of time. Even if this is true it only proves that more than one social structure may have a need for recurring warfare. This doesn't disprove that capitalism has this need.

No one chose to notice my comments on the developing space war capability either. Out of sight, out of mind, perhaps.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 12:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heraclitus exclaimed that "war is the father of all things" which seems to resonate with your thesis. What he implied is that the tension between thesis and antithesis is a creative force; some commenters translated it to point at the (indeed amazing) push for technical innovation that war creates.

In the end, it is hard to accept your premise that the three recent wars were about nothing. Think of the Syracuse expedition by Athenians or the consecutive invasions of Persians in Greece to pick of just two pre modern capitalist examples. If you were contemporary to these events you could also say that indeed they were about nothing. Both societies were faring pretty well in their space and their trade routes and livelihood did not NEED the war to happen. NO, I have to agree with previous comments that war is a quest for domination (my penis/ego/car is bigger than yours raised to the nth) and not an inherently capitalist creation. Capitalism simply harnesses the creative destruction power of war more efficiently (and its profit making potential).

As for the space race, I do not see how it changes your point. It is an extension of the existing war domain made critical due to advances in technology.

Btw. thank you for the diary as it generates discussion.

Orthodoxy is not a religion.

by BalkanIdentity (balkanid _ at _ google.com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 01:53:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your observation that they were over nothing is entirely correct. I didn't comment on it because I judged it obvious. From others' comments, evidently it isn't obvious to everyone.
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 02:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I happen to agree with you that market expansion has been the most convenient explanation for war offered by western capitalists to political leaders to pass on to their constituents.  This was the bald form of US propaganda before the world wars. Off hand, I'd say the industrialists of Old Europe, who integrated the New World "barons" of the Guilded Age, invented it.

The tandem rationale to market expansion is "exemplary" war. It is an older but no less useful, self-serving cultural expression of political domination by a minority group. Being in the minority, economically, is a tenuous position actually. Periodic demonstrations of superior intelligence, resources, agreement, and opportunity are needed to consolidate and sustain magical power over others or annihilate evidence of the fundamental weaknesses of the minority. Domestically, starving the majority is a tried and true test. Internationally, to rebuke one's peers in the realm, genocide is the standard tactic. Sartre made this point in 1967, which is one that I'd hope to emphasize by the end of this comment.

Here, I'll affirm what you don't quite scream, that the public acceptance of war is always required for its prosecution; that is a simple, practical matter for governors of states who profess a semblence of democracy. And when national identity is so completely bound to capitalism's morality and acquisition economic goods, as in the US, it stands to reason that the "perfect" efficiency and unlimited potential of productive society should not be bound. Growth of the nation, one and all, slips easily into the conscious identity of the patriot and the unconscious desire to belong, to be needed and recognized by one's peers. One is the micro-cosmic "example" for being that is projected by secular propaganda on war's justification.

In a theocratic nation-state, religious devotion is a great substitute for personal gain.

In totalitarian states throughout modern history, public acceptance is not required; participation is compulsory on pain of death, and even then, even if one has performed one's duty perfectly, one is still subject to arbitrary demonstrations of state domination. Solzhenitsyn makes this point in his memoir of "sanitary" troop deployments and "patriotic" civilians' internment during the campaign of 1941.

As for the postmodern, postcolonial era of warfare: there are, I think, quite a few layers of the idea of "nothing" having to do with historical memory, as opposed to state leadership, that wants unpacking -- or the truth waiting to be "unveiled".

First, "nothing" is a whole philosopical exercise :) Nothing, like death, cannot be known for it cannot be tested, personally. Nothing, like opportunity cost, cannot be realized. These concepts are forever postulated and so exquisitely acceptable and vulnerable to industrial production values and imagination of a consumer class. In the US, immortality is imaginable and has been depicted countless, entertaining ways since the invention of television. The convergence of immortality and the means and needs of The Right Capitalists to preserve their minority power are denoted by this period of modernist enlightenment -- Nixon, Viet Nam conflict. This is not to understate at all dominating justification and narrative arcs of war: capitalist expansion, genocide which is exactly war.

At the Second  Session of the Bertrand Russell International War Crimes Tribunal on Viet Nam, 1967, Sartre asserted:

All genocide is a product of history and it always carries the signs of the society from which it springs. The case which we have to judge concerns the largest contemporary capitalist power. It is as such that we must attempt to consider it; in other words, inasmuch as it expresses the economic structure, the political aims and the contradictions of that power.
...
This is because:  [paraphrasing, cf. citation]
  • Competition between the industrialized nations fighting over new markets engenders a permanent hostility which is expressed, both in theory and in practice, by what is called `bourgeois nationalism'.
  • The development of industry enables the production of more and more massively lethal arms.
  • The factories, even if they are not working for the armies, do comprise the economic potential of a country. Therefore, the destruction of this potential becomes the aim of the war and the means by which it may be won.
  • Everybody is mobilized. The worker tends to become a fighter because, in the end, it is the strongest economic power that has the greatest chance of winning.
  • The democratic evolution of the bourgeois countries interests the masses in politics. The masses do not control the decisions of the state, but gradually gain a self-awareness. In this way war becomes total.
  • Technologically advanced societies do not cease to enlarge upon the field of competition in multiplying the means of communication. The well-known `One World' of the Americans already existed at the end of the nineteenth century. War is total  because its risk embraces the whole world.

and space.
no?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 10:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Recruiting children as soldiers, raping women as a tactic and ethic cleansing are now used routinely. Rather than warfare becoming less of an issue, it is both growing in frequency and becoming more barbaric.

Well, this is spectacularly false.

Recruiting children as soldiers, raping women as a tactic, and ethnic cleansing have always been used routinely. Grow up.

If anything, we live in an unparalleled age of peace. When's the last time a significant war between two standing armies happened? The American-Iraqi wars, the Iran-Iraq war. And two of those wars were extremely asymmetric.

We are living in an age when classic warfare has pretty much disappeared and we're left only with massacres. But massacres have always occured throughout human history so they are nothing special. Their exposure doesn't represent an evolution of warfare, it represents a disappearance of warfare.

Furthermore,

There is a well-known correlation between the amount of armaments a country possess and the frequency that it engages in conflict. Owning weapons causes wars.

is just wrong. Hitler started WW2 when Germany was at its weakest, militarily. And the strongest economically.

There is some justification for your economic thesis because the outbreaks of war coincide with economic peaks. Nations in the middle of economic depressions do not start wars.

However, the real explanation for this phenomenon is very simple and it is not economic but psychological. It is the homeostasis of suffering. People like having a steady, predictable, amount of suffering in their lives, whether it's depressions or wars. When people aren't suffering, they become anxious as they worry about when suffering will start again.

And happily for us, this theory of suffering also explains why we've ceased liking war. Because of enormous psychological improvements in the Western world. Improvements which will only spread and further reduce the scope of war.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 01:44:08 PM EST
Every so often a new person joins the site who is so certain of their position on everything that they have to let everyone else know about it and insult them while they are at it.

Insulting people is rude, counterproductive and shows the that the person doing it has weak arguments which they try to disguise by use of ad hominem remarks.

I noticed this trend in your recent remarks to Jerome and now you seem to be applying them to me as well. If you wish to have anyone consider your opinions seriously you need to examine your tone.

As to the point that other societies may have waged wars over nothing even though they weren't capitalistic that is probably true, but somewhat besides the point.

We currently live in a world where the biggest powers are capitalistic and if they do indeed fight wars because of the inherent dynamics of their system then this is worth investigating. That this may not be unique is irrelevant.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 02:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, I was going to explain how your historical exceptionalism and experiential bias are annoying when you're trying to pass off falsehoods as historical fact.

But that's nothing compared to your assumption of intellectual relativism.

As if facts and truth were matters of "opinion". As if I should care whether people like me because it will change how authentic are my facts and how powerful are my arguments.

Intellectual relativism is the defense of the brain damaged, literally. It is the worldview of people who cannot comprehend the world in a systematic manner and are reduced to having multiple contradictory "opinions" about it.

I already knew your facts were wrong and your arguments were weak. Now I know enough to dismiss you entirely.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 09:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are a waste of bandwidth.

Go Away.

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:57:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about this. One could easily ask whether there is something about any socioeconomic system that requires war - socialism, feudalism, mercantalism, etc. All have fought wars. If you look at Europe's history I don't see any marked uptick in the frequency of wars over the past century and a half. Nor do I see anything particularly capitalist about colonial acquisition - in fact I'd say that the pre-capitalist colonial conquests from the sixteenth through the eighteenth centuries were more driven by a desire for wealth and resources than the ones that took place in the half century preceding WWI. The latter, like the wars within Europe, were driven by a desire for power and prestige, underwritten by ideology. If you look at, say, the writings of the German Colonial League, the potential gain in resources from new colonies is almost an add on justification for empire. The real reason is the greater glory of the Nation.

To the extent that resources are a factor, it's as a by product of the drive for dominance - to be able to potentially deny them to great power rivals in the event of open conflict, or to prevent those rivals from doing the same to you. But in the absence of open warfare the capitalist system does a pretty good job of assuring access to resources from weak states all on its own. Take oil - it's an internationally traded commodity. Choosing to sell to one country or another doesn't matter - the distribution patterns may shift, but that's it. An Iran could genuinely hurt the US by taking its oil off the market altogether, but given that under the capitalist system its 2.5 mb/d of exports are far more important to it than to the world oil market, and because such a move would hurt allies as well as friends, it would hurt Iran more than it would the US. In open conflict between, say, China and the US, things would be different. But again, all that matters is access, and control over trading routes works just as well as direct control over the source of a material. The British cut off Germany from overseas resources primarily by the use of their navy, not due to their empire. The US could do the same with China.

As for the capitalist logic of the arms industry - I'm not convinced.  Non-capitalist nations invested even more in their defense sector than the capitalist ones during the Cold War. Military spending has declined as a proportion of government spending as capitalism has grown.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 03:42:33 PM EST
So what were Vietnam and Korea about? Even for the French the economic importance of Vietnam wasn't that great that it was worth the effort put into the war. And if you wish to argue that for France it was what I've called a colonial war, then what was in it for the US?

Perhaps "power and prestige" are the manifestations of the zeitgeist that I'm guessing is created by a capitalist society. The US has been claiming that oil was not the motivation for Iraq, but security and bringing "democracy" to the region were. Even if these arguments are window dressing they wouldn't be offered if they didn't resonant with the general public in the US.

I usually try to tie everything back to economics, so many religious wars I think could be shown to be based upon the desire to acquire land or riches, while the religious part was the window dressing of the day. But I really can't believe that the Franco-Prussian war, or WWI and WWII were about France or Germany trying to gain lasting economic advantage over the other. That's why I said they were about "nothing". You are free to call this "power and prestige" if you like.

And, as I said elsewhere, even if this behavior is not unique to capitalist societies, capitalist societies are the dominant ones these days and are the one starting new wars, so it is worthwhile discussing why.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 04:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I usually try to tie everything back to economics, so many religious wars I think could be shown to be based upon the desire to acquire land or riches, while the religious part was the window dressing of the day. But I really can't believe that the Franco-Prussian war, or WWI and WWII were about France or Germany trying to gain lasting economic advantage over the other. That's why I said they were about "nothing". You are free to call this "power and prestige" if you like.

I've never been a big fan of economic determinism. I don't see why we should privilege the desire for wealth as somehow more real, more fundamental, than other motivations. It's a legacy of Marx, I guess, to think of non-economic factors as a superstructure, as something that in the end is only an outgrowth or mask for materialist factors. I don't see it. Religion, nationalism, power - personal or collective - all seem to me to be quite powerful forces. When it comes to understanding behaviour, real is whatever people believe to be so. Then again all such motivations overlap with one another.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 05:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a legacy of Marx.  Ummm ...  I'm afraid we (regular capitalist) economists deserve more of the blame than Marx since our classical theory rests largely on the assumption that firms will act so as to maximize profits.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 05:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
capitalist societies are the dominant ones these days and are the one starting new wars, so it is worthwhile discussing why

But don't we have to find out first whether capitalist societies wage war more or less often than other societies? If we can't find variation across time, then why should we look for any causal link between the two?

I guess the hardest is to make a distinction between waging war often and causing massive destruction. Capitalist societies have indeed caused mass destruction in the past two centuries but modernization seems more responsible for the increase in scale than capitalism per se, as Mazower would argue. But do they wage war more often than before? And even if they do, couldn't it be argued that the cold war world order has silenced lots of conflicts in the name of a bigger one, only to let them explode later? (I take 1948 as the beginning of the capitalist era you want to examine, but maybe you disagree with that)

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 06:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To answer the diarist's question, I doubt that capitalism at this stage requires warfare.  
That doesn't negate, however, that warfare generates nice (even extraordinary) profits for capitalists.  This may in turn lead people who benefit from that industry to exert undue self-serving influence in world affairs.  That, I believe, is what Eisenhower warned us about when he spoke of the growing influence of the Military Industrial Complex in his farewell speech:

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.  In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

Of course, your statement that Non-capitalist nations invested even more in their defense sector than the capitalist ones during the Cold War could easily be countered with the charge that it was an arms race which the socialist world had to assume in self defense.  Whether that is ultimately true or not is anyone's guess.  It is possible too that what started out as an arms race eventually evolved into something more ominous on both sides.  It is interesting to note that the aeronautics and arms industries in particular in the former Soviet Union seemed to operate more according to capitalist than socialist precepts.

Interesting food for thought!

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Mon Jan 29th, 2007 at 05:28:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It may be that Capitalism does not need warfare so much as prepare the ground for it. Since capitalism overtly glorifies greed, the system slopes toward personal acquisition by the the most effective means. This unfortunately is often bullying to get what one wants. Nothing pays like crime.

Also, after a few decades without war, a capitalistic society tends to become more prosperous, and social pressure increase. The constant elevation of material wealth as the goal of all worthy citizens increases competition. Inevitably, the bully mentality is the most successful common-denominator tactic in a competitive environment. So, over time, a purely capitalistic system produces a population of greedy bullies in leadership roles.

The whole idea of war gradually becomes more attractive and supported by a competitive society. Then, wars commence.

In other words, in a capitalistic system, there are at least two elements that favor war: the primacy and insatiability of greed, and the tendency of humans to quickly forget pain.

by Royce on Tue Jan 30th, 2007 at 08:31:20 AM EST
I like your summary, but have a small quibble with this:
the tendency of humans to quickly forget pain.

I don't think people forget pain, as a matter of fact I think that anyone who experiences a war or other catastrophe directly never fully recovers.

What happens is that a new generation arises that has never been involved in wanton destruction and so is easily manipulated to support or participate in the next cycle. Notice that those who started the current wars have no members who actually were involved in the previous ones.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Jan 30th, 2007 at 09:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]