The Small Questions

by ceebs
Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 10:22:54 AM EST

A couple of weeks ago I suggested a diary that asks the small questions. We spend much time discussing the large questions and often start off with a quite technical discussion on a subject. As an example take Migeru's current diary about M3 money supply. As a result of this we get quite a few lurkers or people who do not feel confident in joining the discussion as they feel they have nothing to add. I have been waiting for a Sunday when there was a diary since that appeared technical enough to start this regular series off (thanks Migeru) ;-)

So please ask any questions that you want for the community to answer. No question to insignificant, or simple. There will be no answers of Look it up on google.


The whole point of this diary is to bring people up to speed so that more of our reading community will feel that they can join in in the contributing community.
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ok first question, what is the importance of the different money supply figures?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 10:24:35 AM EST
One of the major economic theories of this century says that inflation is purely a monetary phenomenon, and thus that it takes place only when more money is created (printend or otherwise) than real value has been created in the economy.

So if you manage to keep money supply growth in line with economic growth, you should have no inflation. Thus the importance to be able to follow money growth.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:43:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
so I take it that the different money numbers describe different ways in which people think that the money supply exists?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:47:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that one economist comes and says "look here: output should be proportional to the money supply". And people go "ooh, aah".

But after they give the guy the Nobel Prize in economics they all have had a few minutes to think, and then someone says "okay, but what do you mean by 'money'?" and the people go "Well, cash, of course". And then someone else says "but clearly bank deposits that people use to pay electronically are as good as cash!". And then someone says "but if current accounts are 'money', why not savings accounts?". "And timed deposits?" "And ISAs, and money market accounts?". "Does 'money' have to be FDIC insured?" "And how about 'Eurodollars'?" "And repo's?"

So the people at the Fed tell their statisticians "ok, guys, here is this concept of the 'money supply'. Figure out ways to measure it". And they tally all the different kinds of money I mentioned in the previous paragraph and make a table and call cash "M0" and cash and current accounts "M1", and FDIC insured savings and time deposits "M2", and exotic shit "M3".

So now you know what all these numbers are, but you still have no idea what the original economist meant by "output should be proportional to money supply". But at least now you have a dozen time series, updated monthly, and you can try to see if they have any econometric significance.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thankyou, between You and Jerome you have managed to explain in more simple words than all the explainations I've ever heard.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean "last century", of course.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now here's a trick question (that I don't know the answer to).

Supposedly people can make (and have been making) financial derivatives out of just about anything imaginable [the textbook example of this are "weather derivatives", it must be some kind of inside joke]. Anyway, considering that the M3 money supply has been growing above 10% per year for about 50 years, why don't people introduce an "M3 contracts" in futures exchanges, just like there are S&P500 futures? What would be the consequence of having a liquid market in "money supply derivatives"? Would the logical ramifications short-circuit the financial markets?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I take it that's a simple question....

insofar as it probably has a yes or no answer. (but even that I'm not certain about)

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:31:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What are derivates?
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A derivative is a financial instrument whose value depends (is derived) from the value of another underlying asset.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Such as?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Commodity futures, index futures, stock options.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:49:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, some of these days I just have to look up those terms - or maybe find a book that explains these words.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You could try Wikipedia: Derivative (finance)
Derivatives are financial instruments whose value is derived from the value of something else. They generally take the form of contracts under which the parties agree to payments between them based upon the value of an underlying asset or other data at a particular point in time. The main types of derivatives are futures, forwards, options and swaps.


We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Could you recommend an easy introductory for a lay person? Not only easy but also simple! :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a very interesting topic.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:09:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The one sentence answer is that derivatives are a bet on the future value of something. (That's simplifying a little, but it will do.)

If you think oil is going to cost $100/barrel a year from now, you can buy a tanker full of oil and wait to cash in. Obviously if it costs $200/barrel you win big, and if it's $2/barrel (because aliens have arrived with a miraculous new power source) you're left with a tanker that no one wants and a stupid look on your face.

This is - often incovenient. So it's simpler to bet on the future value of something without having to buy any of it. You make an agreement with someone else who - say - thinks it's going to cost $50/barrel a year from now. When the time is up you work out who owes what to whom, based on what the oil would have been worth if you'd bothered to buy it, and off you both go.

Occasionally there may even be some relationship to real oil involved in this process - e.g. if you run a plastics plant and need to buy the oil at a good price.   Some derivatives are based on real stuff moving around.

But if you can find someone willing to bet against you, you can just as well ignore the oil and bet only on its price.  

Bizarre? For sure. But you can trade in the price of anything - include abstract things like the FT and Dow indices. And the weather.

The advantage is that you need much less money up front to win big, because you don't need to buy a tanker full of oil/soft toys/gold/dollar notes to profit from a change in prices. All you need is someone willing to bet against you.

'Anything' means literally anything you can persuade someone to take a bet on. The derivatives markets include standard bets on future stock prices, individually or in groups, and commodities like gold and oil, currencies, and so on.

Also, the bets don't have to assume that prices will rise. You can also bet that prices will fall. (Obviously, if everyone agreed on which direction prices would move in, there would be no excitement risk and therefore no profit.)

You can also bet on the future value of loans. (And - so far as I know - on the future value of certain bets.) E.g. with mortgages, there's a risk that some people will default. But as long as that number is low enough, lending money for mortgages is still profitable.

You can bet on how true that is by betting on the future value of the stocks of the companies that have made those loans. You can also buy parts of the loans - which is like buying oil. And also bet against future value without buying the loan, by betting on the value of packaged deals of loan-related financial thingummies which come in a plain brown wrapper with instructions that you're not supposed to read.

Now, some unscrupulous people have been suggesting that with these financial bets and loans, the risks have been disguised so that people don't really know what they're betting on. They think they're betting on a sure thing, but in fact they're betting on a horse with three legs and a missing ear.

So it goes. People may not always be honest with you, even when they have a legal obligation to be. And since you're probably not in the loop unless you know all the players personally, you need nerves of steel and plenty of spare cash - or inside information - to play with derivatives profitably.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 04:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
The one sentence answer is that derivatives are a bet on the future value of something.

Now that is an easy to understand definition and makes understanding the other explanations easier too. Thanks!

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 01:19:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can also think of many of them as insurance policies against major price fluctuations.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 03:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Take a bond.  The borrower has to make a quarterly interest payment and then final payment when the borrower has to return the principal.  It is possible to separate and sell the rights to these two actions:

  1.  For a certain amount of money the series of payments is all yours

  2.  For a certain amount of money the final payment is all yours.

1 and 2 are paid in money (duh.)  The value, e.g., purchasing power, of that money changes over time for a whole bunch of reasons, like inflation.  So it is possible to derive two more financial instruments (as they are called):

  1.  A financial instrument to protect against losing  money of 1 while you own it

  2.  A financial instrument to protect against losing money of 2 while you own it

In both cases the claim is if you buy 3 or 4 you will be assured of getting the money you counted on when you bought 1 or 2.  Which is important for pension plans, insurance companies, & so on.

Is this clear, so far?

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, thank you, so far I can follow.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I did with the bond can be done with any underlying asset such as stocks, options, futures, what have you.  And instead of using money I can use the changing relationship of the underlying asset (or 1 or 2 or 3 or 4) and the value of the money.  For example, how much the Return of Principal (final pay-off) of the bond is worth changes, for a number of reasons.  

To make sure the Return of Principal isn't worth less than you need, want, expect you can buy protection - a derivative.    

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:24:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I get it. Thanks.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:57:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks again, I get it now.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to understand.

Say that average temperature in July is 20°C, with a symetrical probabilistic distribution around it. Say that you sell beer, and know that your turnover will increase by x for each additional °C (and, conversely, be reduced by x for each degree less).

If you can propose the following trade to someone else:

  • if the temperature is below 16, that person pays you a fixed sum (say 4x)
  • if the temperature is above 24, you pay that person the same fixed sum.

That trade is neutral to your counterparty (statistically, each of the two events has the same probability of happening), while it smoothes out your income quite helpfully.

Statistical data on weather is reasonably easy to get by (ignoring for a minute the consequences of climate change), and statistically neutral tools that help some weather sensitive businesses ensure minimum levels of revenues are easy to design.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:18:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... money as an almost force of nature outside the economy, when in reality most money is created inside the economy.

Given the ability of commercial banks to create purchasing power, what central banks can do effectively is to regulate the fundamental price of the reserves that they use to create money.

So where the primitive monetarist theory assumes:

Change in Money Supply to Change in Money GDP to Change in Inflation rate ...

... the observation that money is created in our economy in reaction to changes in things that drive Money GDP leads to a different core view of cause and effect ...

Change in cash rate to Change in Money GDP to Changes in Inflation and Changes in Money Supply.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 04:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
second question, why when I'm writing a diary do I get Two hidden comment boxes on the right hand side?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 10:25:18 AM EST
To bewilder and confuse you? Remember, scope is written in Perl, the significance of which is most clearly explained in the following xkcd strip:

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh that's easily done, Bewildered and confused is my natural state ;-)

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:20:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the
submit_template
block used to contain two copies of
|BOX,admin_tools|


We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:37:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thought it would be a small copying error or something similar. I take it it is a problem of the past?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe it is. Can you check?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yep gone. (just to make sure, it's not defined differently for different browsers is it)?

no, checked and you don't get the problem in ie either

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we should also offer fabulous prizes to any and all lurkers who pop their lurking heads up in this thread and say hi. Because I don't know if I really believe in lurkers. So rarely seen, by definition, their existence can only be inferred from site stats, the accuracy of which I have never seen demonstrated.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:23:27 AM EST
I was a lurker for quite some time as nch78 (less than the 900th ETer).  Then I forgot my password and renamed myself and began to post.

Lurkers are real! But I agree with Someone, please say hi!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:26:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a couple popped their heads up last week, for a single comment. Mainly to say that they felt intimidated by the enormous brains we all had. I'm investigating my Prizes pile ass we speak.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:30:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ass? Was that some kind of freudian slip? ie we all talk bullshit really!!?

What are the likely prizes then?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:39:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly we do quite a bit of talking out our asses. The emoticon for which is:

3~

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:44:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's super.  I'm going to see if I can work it into a meeting paper somehow.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:52:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It looks like a book prize

the first lurker popping up out of the woodwork will have a choice from my pile of duplicate books

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I lurk a lot and comment a little.  ET has the feel of a graduate level seminar in  current affairs.  Pretty often I feel like the only one in class who hasn't done my homework.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.
by budr on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't worry we're mostly allergic to homework. Turn up ask questions. it keeps the rest of us on our toes, and makes sure were not just bluffing.

If you really want homework though you only have to ask. ;-)

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru is that +4 an offer to provide homework? ;-)

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I retired from teaching nearly 3 years ago.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't worry, we're mostly making it up as we go along.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 05:02:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think everybody does.  The difference is whether people are willing to admit it or not.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 06:21:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyone who isn't has a theory as to how the world works, and almost without exception those people are Dangerous.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 09:52:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Different degrees of regulation ie such as Jerome's diary discusses.  What does it boil down to in a nutshell?

I keep trying to get my head around economics and markets, demand and supply and so on and it will not stay.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:23:52 AM EST
was for the small questions...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:41:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
lol!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even understand the question.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 11:53:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, something that is sold can be regulated or it can be left to free market mechanisms to decide the price, or there can be some level of state intervention that sort of regulates although not fully.

And my question I suppose is what impact does all this have eg with regulated electricity vs deregulated.  The implications are that if it isn't regulated at all, then people who can't afford it, won't buy it when the prices rise and ethically, is that right? For pensioners or young children from families in poverty to not be able to cook, wash or keep warm because they can't afford electricity?

Even minimum state regulation prevents an absolutely free market, which distorts things and makes the 'free market' less effective. So why bother deregulating, or only semi-regulating?  

If we ignore all ethics what is the outcome of a true free market and if we regulate ethically, what is the outcome?  Is my question. Uhh. Yeah.
?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's pretty much it.

The only extra point is that fans of deregulation tout it as it a way of lowering prices. Governments are supposed to be inefficient, by definition, and free markets are efficient by definition.

'Efficient' means they'll always find the lowest price for consumers.

This is crap for any number of reasons. And the point of Jerome's diary is that Cato, who are world-famous cheerleaders for deregulation, have now admitted a few of those reasons.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... there is splashing out money on stuff you want.

There is at least the beginning of an ethical argument for focusing regulation on ensuring the former, and letting the latter be done through the market ... since a fundamental limitation of regulation is that if it is not institutionalized, it will stop being provided by some future government, while if it is institutionalized, there is only so much that regulatory institution can prioritize.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 04:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would say that the "free market" is an ideological construct without foundation in reality. All markets are constructed by surrounding regulations, legal or otherwise.
by A swedish kind of death on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 05:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The interesting thing is that I don't know anything about economics (no, really) but when I put up a technical diary, instead of calling bullshit people just lurk B~

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:11:24 PM EST
it's just you appear to know more nothing than I do ;-)

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 12:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can "someone" help? I added the extension for Firefox but lost the links for the comments which explain its advantages and how to use it.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:28:12 PM EST
I'm not "someone," but I am someone...

Of version numbering and convenience

Falling into a black hole

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm glad this question was asked, I've been meaning to go back and find that because I knew there were some other useful features beyond finding unread comments and stopping me from leaving comments unrated.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:48:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And could 'someone' or someone please tell me why my +4 button does not work anymore...?  It worked perfectly, then 3 days ago it just gave up...
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:54:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mine still works.  What browser are you using?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The extension only works with Firefox, so one must assume that's the browser in question.

I've had the +4 button disappear from time to time, but never for very long, and it always comes back.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it is Firefox.  
I diligently followed your download instructions, and use Firefox all the time now...

And I miss the +4 button!

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:07:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Under your 'tools' menu, find 'Error Console', open it. In the 'Error Console', click the red button labeled 'Errors'. Are there any errors?  
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:05:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...has three messages
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
line 71, 94 and 422?

I get those and don't lose my +4 button as far as i know

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two of the messages mention line 151 (they look identical)

It says RateClick in front of the number.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:16:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What are they? You should be able to select and copy them.

Is it the case that you have no +4 buttons, or you have them but clicking them doesn't work?
(I think I remember you telling me about the latter before)

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:17:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Error: uncaught exception: [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE) [nsIDOMHTMLSelectElement.selectedIndex]"  nsresult: "0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE)"  location: "JS frame :: chrome://tribext/content/copyMenu.js :: RateClick :: line 151"  data: no]

This is the message.

Yes, I have the button, it just stopped working 3 days ago

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:21:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can try to tell you how to find out what is wrong, and then fix it. However, this is not completely straight forward. It requires that you download yet another extension.  (Extension developer's extension)
After that you have to do some more things...
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You think I can manage?  If I fail, I could ask my IT expert son to fix it by remote control (he's in Norway - I'm in Scotland).  
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:53:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From my side it's not to bad. Go ahead and download the extension from the site I linked, and I'll write up some instructions for how to proceed.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:56:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah...I just tried to download the extension you gave a link to, but Firefox prevented me from downloading.  
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does it give you a thing on the top of your page with a button labeled 'Edit options'? Click it, then click 'Allow'.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:07:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Before trying anything else, before even downloading something, try clicking a '+4' button, then scroll the rating pulldown out of view and back into view. Is there a 4 rating registered now?
(This just happened to me, dont know why)
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:17:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How strange!  That seemed to cure the problem!
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:32:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank You, Thank You!
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It does mean, that something is not quite right. Don't know what, though. When I quit and restart Firefox it went away.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I quit and restarted just now.  +4 still works.
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:57:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.eurotrib.com/special/tribext

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:54:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

quote articles and previous comments with automatic HTML formatting

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 01:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you highlight some text, then right click, you should have an extra option "Copy HTML, URL, Title" (This action can also be invoked by "Ctrl-Shift-C").

I did it with your comment and when I post we get:

Solveig:

quote articles and previous comments with automatic HTML formatting
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:43:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh, that should be "when I paste and then hit post"
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 02:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Metatone:
If you highlight some text, then right click, you should have an extra option "Copy HTML, URL, Title"

Oooh! That's just fab. I didn't have chance to absorb everything when it was first discussed. I'm even more impressed now.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes it is, and it definitely has made it easier for me to set up the Salon. :-) I am a real fan of someone's extension.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Metatone:
I did it with your comment and when I post we get:

Is this how, I wonder...

I just ran spellcheck, and there it was..!  My first block quote!

Magic!

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 03:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anyone know of a solid book on the semiotics (use and abuse of symbols) of film?  I'm particularly interested in a statement of principles.  If it went on to discuss the use of those principles and the [jargon alert!] Reader Reaction so much the better.  A work in the Pierce School would be ideal but not mandatory.  

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 04:08:35 PM EST
theoretical? or by example?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 04:30:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there's always This

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 04:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ideally, the work would contain both theory and practice.  But I would like both to be grounded in some experimental proofs.  

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 05:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you throw an email at my email address, I'll get a colleague to send you a list tomorrow.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 05:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, will do.


Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 05:58:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And copy it here so that the rest of us (at least 1, me !), also interested in the answer to the question, might see it ?

Pretty please !

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 08:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Semiotics of cinema by Iurii Mikhailovich Lotman Trans.

The Theory of Semiotics by Umberto Eco


Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 05:57:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the difference between a "liberal interventionist" and a "neocon"?

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 06:50:43 PM EST
Well one would hope that the difference is international agreement and a level of consent among the international community.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 07:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well one would hope that the difference is international agreement and a level of consent among the international community.

Good point.  Neocons typically do not care at all about international opinion/agreement.  Having said that, just how "international" does liberal intervention have to be?  Does international include Russia and China, for example?

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 08:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well that's hard to say, but "The coalition of the Willing" isn't the answer. I think you'd need a broad spectrum of International opinion, not just those in it for ther money.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Oct 7th, 2007 at 09:06:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You could always to to wiki, but Ezra Klein has the real answer.

Money quote:

Roger Cohen may feel like he is a liberal hawk, and thus distinct. But what Roger Cohen feels does not matter, because Roger Cohen does not control any branch of the American military. Who he empowers, and which actors in American politics find their ideas legitimized by his columns, is all that matters. And in that, he is worse than a neoconservative. He's a liberal hawk who knows better, but whose interest in writing about his own virtue overwhelms his judgments concerning the actual actions of those who wield power. He is not a neoconservative. He is a narcissist.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 04:59:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anyone know what the status of the Great Server Migration is?

And is there any way we could have a wider comment box in the meantime? I'd guess most people are running wider than 640 x 480 now, and - for me anyway- typing in a tiny box can be slightly distracting.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 10:55:38 AM EST

.........1.........2.........3.........4.........5.........6.........7.........8..
1234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012
I'm typing in a pretty standard 82x25 character box, and with the fonts I have set in this laptop it spans about 60% of the width of the screen and over 80% of the width of the middle column in the layout.

This is because in my user preferences -> settings -> interface preferences I have set the Text box width to 80 and the Text box height to 24.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 11:15:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Doh. :)
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Oct 8th, 2007 at 12:23:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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