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Containing Them

by Jerome a Paris Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:13:12 PM EST

The European Council on Foreign Relations has sober assessment the reckless and aggressive foreign policy of our biggest partner:


"Today, it is the White House that sets the agenda for EU-US relations, and it does so in a manner that increasingly defies the rules of the game," says Joschka Fischer, former German foreign minister and ECFR's co-chair. "The reason for that is the disunity of the EU. This must change."

The EU's failure to agree on a common US policy has allowed the White House to increase its leverage over the EU, through signing bilateral military deals, playing the Kosovo card, asserting itself in the common neighbourhood, and dragging its feet on preventing nuclear proliferation.

And the ECFR follows on with bold proposals on how to deal with this threat:



  • Push for the implementation of all international agreements and standards the US has committed itself to, in order to further promote the rule of law;
  • Make the US's participation in G8 summits conditional on its commitment to the spirit and the letter of common agreements, with the threat of organizing more low-level meetings within the G7 format should the US be uncooperative;
  • Introduce the policy of 'principled bilateralism' where EU governments are expected to use bilateral links to serve common EU goals and introduce an early warning system to inform of impending military deals or bilateral disputes;

Ah, finally, someone dares say what we've all been thinking. We need to contain an out-of-control administration...

Sadly, of course, this is not about the US, but about Russia. We need to have our enemies straight. On the one side, we have the good guys who can do no wrong, even as they invade and occupy countries, make torture official policy, and dismiss international law and treaties, and on the other, the evil Russians who dare behave as it it were not our gas under their toundra.

:: ::

I'll just pick and choose a few sentences from the full version of the report (which can be downloaded - pdf - via this link)...


It is setting itself up as an ideological alternative to the EU, with a different approach to sovereignty, power and world order. Where the European project is founded on the rule of law, Moscow believes that laws are mere expressions of power - and that when the balance of power changes, laws should be changed to reflect it. Russia today is trying to revise the terms of commercial deals with western oil companies, military agreements such as the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty, and diplomatic codes of conduct like the Vienna Convention. And it is trying to establish a relationship of `asymmetric interdependence' with the EU. While EU leaders believe that peace and stability are built through interdependence, Russia's leaders are working to create a situation where the EU needs Russia more than Russia needs the EU, particularly in the energy sector.

(...)

On energy, it is picking off individual EU member states and signing long-term deals which undermine the core principles of the EU's common strategy.

As I did above the fold, and as the suggested links inserted in this paragraph attest, most of that text applies eerily well to all the excesses and horrors we're seeing from Washington. In fact, if you  replace "energy" by "military", the whole things fully applies with respect to the US - including the fact that the EU does not have a common strategy - not for energy, and not for military policy.

I wish that all these people that moan about the EU being unable to stick to an energy policy (as to a foreign policy) would tell me what that policy is - and no, deregulation and unbundling is not a strategy. Specifically, viz. Russia, what would be the proposed energy policy?

On thr ground, there is only interdependence between Russia and the EU - the pipelines that link the two entities cannot be used for any other purpose and have no substitutes; in fact, Russia depends on its European markets a lot more (100% of its hard currency exports than the EU depends on Russian gas (20% of its gas). So, if anybody is "creating a situation where the EU needs Russia more than Russia needs the EU", it is the boys-who-cried-wolf of the political world, blindly followed by the punditry and the "serious" people, who have manufactured a crisis where there was none in order to have a scapegoat for the very real shortfalls of domestic energy policies.

Nobody's complaining in these crowds about the lack of a substantive response from the EU to the very real and unavoidable US decisions to drop the Geneva Conventions, to make torture State policy and to destroy Iraq.

And the main recommendation of the report, makes a lot of sense viz. the USA as well:


While the long-term goal should be to have a liberal democratic Russia as a neighbour, a more realistic mid-term goal would be to encourage Russia to respect the rule of law, which would allow it to become a reliable partner.

So, taking the implementation of this grand idea in more detail, we have the following:


Conditional Engagement with Russia.

Proponents of `soft containment' and `creeping integration' debate whether Russia should be excluded from the G8, and whether to block the negotiation of a new Partnership and Cooperation Agreement.

Yep. would work with the US.


Principled Bilateralism.

 Under the `rule of law' paradigm, the EU should aim for `principled bilateralism.' The goal would be to ensure that bilateral contacts between Russia and individual EU member states reinforce rather than undermine common EU objectives. Equally, most member states would value an early warning system which would allow both upcoming crises and upcoming deals to be discussed internally in the Union.

Oh boy, wouldn't that be useful with the US too. Except that this would target London - or maybe, in these Sarkozy-blessed days, Paris - and threatening poodlehood-desire would not do. Wanting to be part of the good guys is always a good thing, even if it's done on a bilateral basis...


Integrate the Neighbourhood.

Under the approach we advocate, the EU would focus on encouraging these countries to adopt European norms and regulations and thus integrate them into the European project. The Union could also invest in electricity interconnections with some neighbouring countries, give them access to the Nabucco pipeline, extend the European Energy Community and seek the full application the energy acquis in Turkey, Ukraine and Moldova. This could lead to the unbundling of energy companies in these states, greater transparency in their energy sectors and, consequently, greater energy security for Europe and fewer possibilities for Russia to use energy as an instrument of foreign
policy.

OK, this has less relevance for relations with the US. But it's worth commenting on its own, just to highlight the hilarious ignorance by this report's authors of the realities of the gas business in Europe.

  • the Nabucco pipeline is not happening because the only entity that could credibly provide the gas needed to fill it (a prerequisite to finance it) is ... Russia. So, promoting Nabucco as an alternative to Russia gas is beyond stupid;
  • the Ukrainian and Moldovan gas companies are essentially transport companies, ie they are already unbundled, for all intents and purposes... and the fact that they are transit companies for Russian exports is what allows them not to pay for gas delivered by Russia. Gazprom would love nothing more than transparency in the gas transit business, as it would allow it to actually get paid for all the gas sent to Ukraine, and to stop subsidizing these countries to the tune of billions of dollars (now, some Gazprom managers and Ukrainian oligarchs might have a different idea, but such nuance is altogether lost to most commentators);
  • there is no "energy weapon" - or there is only in very special, assymetric cases (Russia's relationship with Armenia might qualify, but that case is somehow never mentioned). When there is a balanced relationship, like between Russia and any EU country, the "energy weapon" is just like nuclear dissuasion - it cannot be used. And yes, even with the Balts, the relationship is balanced as long as they pay market prices for gas

But hey, let's perpetuate the image of the evil Russian Empire bent on total domination of the European energy markets.


Enforce the Law.

A `rule of law' approach would promote mutual agreements and investments, but be much tougher on their implementation. For example, the European Commission should be given political support to apply competition policy in the energy sector, and to investigate some of the more dubious deals between Russian and EU companies.

Here, the parallel with rendition flights is striking. These were without any doubt illegal in Europe, and yet were done with the assent and complicity of various European governments. Yes, it would definitely be a good idea for the EU to uphold the rule of law and hold those responsible for these egregious breaches of our values and laws accountable.

Of course, in this case, a deal is "dubious" when it's signed by a big French, German or Italian company, especially those that were State-owned at some point in the past, rather than by a trader of an investment fund.


Rebalance the Relationship.

The EU needs to adopt an internal code of conduct on energy deals and guidelines on long-term contracts and forthcoming mergers. In order to avoid further monopolisation and partitioning of the EU energy market, the European Commission could be granted the right to pre-approve big energy deals on long-term contracts and pipelines concluded between EU and foreign energy companies. The practical goals should be open competition, the rule of law and an integrated and flexible gas market.

This is where the lack of an actual European energy policy brings again the focus on tools and instruments, and those are the ones preferred by the deregulation ayatollahs favored by the British government and the City traders and banks they represent: prevent the secure, reasonably cheap procurement of gas by the big players under long term contracts so that the small ones can join the fun too and take their cut along the way. Remember that ExxonMobil is favorable to long term contracts and has sold all the gas it has the right to in Qatar under such contracts - becuase that's the only way to finance the huge investments required. The EU is the only place in the world that wants to ban the only kind of contract that can support the construction of gas infrastructure...

If it sounds oddly like the Rumsfeldian divide between Old Europe (the nasty French who are not interested in delivering gas to the UK even when prices are high, and the evil Germans who want to have a pipeline which is not hostage to the capricious Poles), and New Europe, it's probably on purpose. In fact, the report encourages the comparison:


Russia has emerged as the most divisive issue in the European Union since Donald Rumsfeld split the European club into `new' and `old' member states.

Sigh...

And on to the conclusion:


The EU has a basic choice to make: either member states continue to pursue bilateral agendas, but ultimately all lose out. Or it can unite - which will require individual member states to make possibly painful concessions - and exercise real influence over the nature of the relationship with Russia.

Any guess which members (the new Old Europe - wimps, hypocrites and losers) are asked to make concessions, and which (the new new Europe - righteous, brave and selfless) are required to influence the relationship - and put Europe on a path of head-on confrontation with Russia to teach it its right place - submissive?

And guess when the same formula will be applied to our relationship with the out-of-control Bush administration?

Display:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/11/11/162541/32
Thanks for your support.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 04:29:36 PM EST
This makes a perfect LTE right back to the ECFR, Jerome.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 05:21:22 PM EST
I second metavision's proposal to write a letter to ECFR.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 05:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
on their site, on the page that introduces their document:
http://www.ecfr.eu/content/entry/commentary_pr_russia_power_audit/
Feel free...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 06:01:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've posted this:


I have posted a critique of this report on the European Tribune website:
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2007/11/11/162456/18

I'd really be interested to understand what the authors of this report mean when they talk about a European energy strategy, because I am absolutely unable to understand what it is, apart from saying "what is our gas doing under their toundra"?



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:42:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Atlanticism is strategically blind and morally bankrupt.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 06:31:43 PM EST
Not as long as European security institutions are useless or nonexistant or both.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 11:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European security institutions actually do exist but are beyond checks and balance. A major problem is that the US pursues its objectives through European committees without any sort of debate in the EP. A prime result of the European Constitution would be to empower the EP to oversee and debate policies that are now decided in the proverbial back rooms of bureaucracy.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 02:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd like to call attention to the informative articles by Valsamis Mitsilegas on European police cooperation, biometrics, Comitology, US-EU cooperation and accords at this site liberty and security.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One more thing for my Brussels trip.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:44:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:12:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since Atlanticism is useless to damaging, I don't understand why you think so.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:15:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's on rysskräck.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:30:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see Atlanticism more as a NATO thing with heavy-handed offshot conditioning of all the rest. I agree that it is "morally bankrupt" for what that's worth but as far as long term strategy goes it is not so blind, which does make it more ominous.

NATO started shifting its focus to its southeast flank in the 70's long before the Cold War finished. Everything was already in position for the new crusade.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NATO is not blind, but European Atlanticists seem to be.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:09:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How do you define Atlanticism?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The belief that Europe's foreign and security policy has to happen under the NATO umbrella.

I.e., that European nations should abdicate to the US their individual and collective responsibility to formulate a foreign and security policy.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:42:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I still don't understand why the US pursues a strategy of having everything done under the NATO umbrella when Americans would likely be more than happy to leave Europe to handle its own foreign and security policy.

But then you'd have to find some way of dealing with the fact that some EU members bail on the Union the moment the American government snaps its fingers.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 10:45:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the Empire doesn't cede power voluntarily.

But then you'd have to find some way of dealing with the fact that some EU members bail on the Union the moment the American government snaps its fingers.

Tell us about it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 10:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let 'em bail.

We know already pretty much who they are. Maybe they'd like to leave the union.

<snark> A few of them, I'm sure, would very much like to be back in Moscow's orbit. </snark>

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[...] when Americans would likely be more than happy to leave Europe to handle its own foreign and security policy.

You are of course pulling our collective leg, neh?

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You might be surprised. Then again I'm not sure what the response will be as American prestige / power declines further.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I detect some confusion between what Americans want and what the United States wants in this sub-thread. Many Americans might be very happy to let Europe pursue it's own policy. The US is not, and has not been.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:21:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More specifically, separating the American public from the lame attempts at realpolitik in the American government.

I suspect, as it gets no coverage here (and as these policies are set up behind closed doors), most Americans haven't got a clue about any of it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. Many Americans don't seem to be aware that anything has happened in Europe since 1946.

I suspect most Europeans couldn't put together the history of US interventions in Europe since WWII. My picture of it is fragmentary, for that matter. But it's not all that pretty.

Someone - DoDo springs to mind for some reason - should write a diary...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking more de gondi, what with the CIA's interference in the Italian election system. (Which is something I know happened, but no nowhere near enough to write a diary before you ask ;-) )

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:44:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Deterring Democracy: Chapter 11 [1/7]
Large-scale CIA interference in Italian politics has been public knowledge since the congressional Pike Report was leaked in 1976, citing a figure of over $65 million to approved political parties and affiliates from 1948 through the early 1970s. In 1976, the Aldo Moro government fell in Italy after revelations that the CIA had spent $6 million to support anti-Communist candidates. At the time, the European Communist parties were moving towards independence of action with pluralistic and democratic tendencies (Eurocommunism), a development that pleased neither Washington nor Moscow, Raymond Garthoff observes, neither of which may "have wanted to see an independent pan-Europe based on local nationalism arise between them." For such reasons, both superpowers opposed the legalization of the Communist Party of Spain and the rising influence of the Communist Party in Italy, and both preferred center-right governments in France. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger described the "major problem" in the Western alliance as "the domestic evolution in many European countries," which might make Western communist parties more attractive to the public, nurturing moves towards independence and threatening the NATO alliance. "The United States gave a higher priority to the defensive purpose of protecting the Western alliance and American influence in it than to offensive interests in weakening Soviet influence in the East" in those years, Garthoff concludes in his comprehensive study of the period; the phrase "defensive purpose of protecting the Western alliance" refers to the defense of existing privilege from an internal challenge. This was the context for renewed CIA interference with Italian elections, and possibly a good deal more

In July 1990, President Cossiga of Italy called for an investigation of charges aired over state television that the CIA had paid Licio Gelli to foment terrorist activities in Italy in the late 1960s and 1970s. Gelli was grandmaster of the secret Propaganda Due (P2) Masonic lodge and had long been suspected of a leading role in terrorism and other criminal activities. In those years, according to a 1984 report of the Italian Parliament, P2 and other neofascist groups, working closely with elements of the Italian military and secret services, were preparing a virtual coup to impose an ultra-right regime and to block the rising forces of the left. One aspect of these plans was a "strategy of tension" involving major terrorist actions in Europe. The new charges were made by Richard Brenneke, who claims to have served as a CIA contract officer, and who alleged that the CIA-P2 connections extended over more than 20 years and involved a $10 million payoff. Close links between Washington and the Italian ultra-right can be traced to the strong support for Mussolini's fascist takeover in 1922



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The CIA did throw a lot of money to the Democrat Christians for campaigning but I wonder just how much was actually used or simply lined pockets. The Eastern bloc financed the Italian communists, of course, until the early 80's if I recall. Neither block wanted to rock the boat beyond the statuatory rhetoric. Italy was Western with the largest, most interesting Communist party outside the Soviet block.

Far worse was the meddling by non-governmental elements (WACL, OAS), sects (P2, masons, mafia), recycled fascists (Valerio Borghese, Salvatore Giuliano, De Lorenzo), or plain terrorist organizations (BR, NAR). It will take several decades until the dust settles to draw any historical conclusions on the extant of CIA involvement in Italian affairs. They may have had a stabilizing effect by discouraging or blocking the adventurism of their natural allies (all of the above).

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:34:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's unfortunately getting worse, too.  And that's not to say that I'm some great example of a person with an endless knowledge of post-war European history.  Far from it.  But ask the kids today who Mussolini was, and you'll find they haven't got a clue if they attend public schools.  And even private schools have been so thoroughly dumbed down that the kids likely won't know.

I wouldn't know what little history I do except for reading and being tutored by my father.

The WWII generation knows its stuff.  And the Boomers are pretty sharp.  But, from Gen-X on, knowledge of history -- European, America, any kind -- seems to plummet, in my experience.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:09:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whole-heartedly agree about the generations.

I can't say I know my history well, but I was raised to be aware of the world outside the borders of my country, or town for that matter.  My mother lived in Italy for a bit, and that had an impact on my upbringing.  I was also really lucky to have this amazing 6th grade teacher -in a small town of 2,000- who made us learn all of the countries, their capitals, and would go on these diatribes about how there is the whole world out there who think Americans are idiots and we should stop acting like idiots and proving them right.  People hated him.  His wife was ... Polish, I think, and they'd lived in Germany or something.  He made me take German lessons after class, for some reason.  

Oh, perhaps this is the reason:

Foreign languages are rarely required in American schools, and if they are, it is usually long after the ideal time to acquire a second language.  Then, I just happened to have an English teacher in High School whose parents were Lithuanian immigrants, and she taught a small group of us Russian.  I think it's extremely rare to have Russian taught in American High Schools.  And sadly, just about all of my peers studying Russian in college had studied it in high school.  Creates a really small pool of people in America who can even make a half-assed attempt at speaking Russian.  And given that you can't really understand another culture until you can unsderstand the language, it's really detrimental that most 3rd generation Americans don't bother knowing a second language.  Pretty basic stuff...

The WWII generation were rather forced to travel the world, or forced to understand their loved ones' world travels.  It was a World War.  Boomers?  Why did they care?  British invasion?  Cold War?  Simultaneous student movements here and abroad?  All the cool kids were going to Europe to smoke hash or something?  Don't know.

My generation has no need to leave the country, not much opportunity to do so, no motivation to learn a sexy foreign language, no World War or Cold War to force us to see ourselves in some larger context.  Well, in the Middle East, but not Europe.  It's lack of education, yes, but also lack of impetus to educate ourselves.  Why would we need to care about Europe?  How would not caring about Europe affect our lives?  I think the prevailing sentiment is that Europe is that place our grandparents are from, and where they still produce quality things we love like wine and cheese.  Caring about politics there is like caring about politics in a neighboring town.  I like going apple-picking there, but don't care who their mayor is.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:36:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we tend to attach a certain level of prestige to Europe, thinking about cheese and wine reference.  Calling something European -- or "Yurpian," as we seem determined to say it -- is, as we all know, a means of attaching a sense of sophistication to products.

We all know the French for cheese, wine and the Eiffel Tower; the Germans for their cars and engineering in general; the Italians for what we think is their food; the Dutch for their legalized dope; the Brits -- who are all, of course, from London -- for Big Ben; and the Irish for alcohol and alcohol-related issues.  I think that sums up my generation's basic understanding of Europe.

Forget the other countries.  If you say Spain, we think Mexico.  the Swiss make knives, and they have bank accounts.  ("Something about bank accounts....")  And Belgium has waffles and chocolate.

Most of my family that I'm aware of came to the states centuries ago, so we don't have any deep emotional ties to Europe aside from being a family of people with some interest in history and politics.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Europe is either sophisticated, or Eurotrash. Or people who need to be saved from the Germans or Russians every few decades.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know.  We don't seem to follow the whole "Eurotrash" thing, in my experience.  But yes to the bit on rescue from the Germans and Russians.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And, plus, if we didn't "rescue" you damned Europeans every now and then, how would Washington keep us up on our geography?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:27:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He has a good point there...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a bit of an expensive way to learn geography though isn't it? seeing as at school it is just a fancy name for colouring in (teachers in joke from friends of mine)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ceebs, you don't understand.  This is America.  We have credit cards and home equity loans and the Chinese to take care of that.  You can't ask us to put down our PlayStations to go and learn bullshit at school.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good job you learnt to write before you got your playstation ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We didn't have PlayStations when I was a kid.  Had to walk fifteen miles to play Nintendos.  In the snow.  With no shoes on.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And when we grew up, the world was all in black and white, it was only the US where the world was in colour.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because color = good.  Look at the North Koreans.  Always in black and white.  It's because they're evildoers.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so colour is good unless it's red

I could almost be an American

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, red is good.  Dear Leader's states are Red.  I saw it on the liberal media.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so what's the difference between dear leaders red, and the godless comunist hordes red?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:07:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it's that hordes don't have states (officially.)

(You made me--yes!--imagine an evil tribe growing out of america, enslaving everyone in some terrible violent misery of endless them, and their flag would  be red, a different shade to the russians of course, a bit more lipstick red in there, hidden away, so...okay...none of that dark purple--oh and, shit, the chinese have a red flag too--the battle of the reds!)

Cough cough!  Very very very enjoyable, thanks ceebs and Drew!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
payback in entertainment form for all of the music you supply. ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Friggin' Brits, you haven't produced any top artists since Oasis' second record, and you are the ones, after all, who export all of these ridiculous pop-star television shows to us.  Bad Britain.  Sophisticated American consumer judges you!

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You've got no taste, we Brits havent produced any good music since way before Oasis ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aw, come on.  What's the Story was a great record.  But, okay, how about Zeppelin IV?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, but since then I'd probably throw in London Calling by the Clash, Unknown pleasures by Joy Division, One Step Beyond by Madness, New Boots and Panties by Ian Dury and the Blockheads, The Fat of the Land by the prodigy, specials,by the specials, and OK computer (although I have been prefering the dub reimagining rather than the radiohead version)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:24:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of the ones on there I've heard, good picks.  I quite agree.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:34:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've never been that convinced by oasis

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've certainly not heard anything from them in a solid decade that was worth the time.  But, again, What's the Story was a big favorite of mine when I was younger.  And it made for a good time when trying to figure out songs my buddy and I both knew how to play when I was in Britain.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oasis Lyrics!

Today is gonna be the day
That they're gonna throw it back to you
By now you should've somehow
Realized what you gotta do
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do about you now

Backbeat the word was on the street
That the fire in your heart is out
I'm sure you've heard it all before
But you never really had a doubt
I don't believe that anybody feels
The way I do about you now

And all the roads we have to walk along are winding
And all the lights that lead us there are blinding
There are many things that I would
Like to say to you
I don't know how

Because maybe
You're gonna be the one who saves me ?
And after all
You're my wonderwall

Today was gonna be the day?
But they'll never throw it back to you
By now you should've somehow
Realized what you're not to do
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do
About you now

And all the roads that lead to you were winding
And all the lights that light the way are blinding
There are many things that I would like to say to you
I don't know how

I said maybe
You're gonna be the one who saves me ?
And after all
You're my wonderwall

I said maybe
You're gonna be the one who saves me ?
And after an
You're my wonderwall

Said maybe
You're gonna be the one that saves me
You're gonna be the one that saves me
You're gonna be the one that saves me

Okay...okay.

You have to watch the intro to this and then the song is at -3:35

%+:;;'7})

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you hate America, or just freedom in general?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm European, of course I hate freedom in general, it's part of my being a goddless communist. (that and knowing that baseball is really a girls game)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, now, as a Southerner, the Baseball as Girls Game stab is fine by me.  It's a sport for those fairies up in the Union.

In fact, why don't you Godless commies play it like your Yankee cousins?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 07:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well most of your sports it's like health and safety gone mad. All that padding and helmets and having to stop every few seconds for a rest to play a game that's even vaguely like rugby. Although I suppose that your youth are now learning to play proper football and finaly joining in proper world competitions.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, but our people are twice the size of your people.  What's a typical rugby player weigh -- maybe 180?  We've got field goal kickers larger than your rugby players.

And of course we need breaks.  Do you know how difficult it is to run after eating half a dozen Big Macs every day for twenty years?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:39:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And it's obviously a sport that teaches the ethics of an intensely class ridden society, after all every player has to know his place.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Class and race with a lot of Rome sprinkled in.  Could be worse:  the rural types watch cars drive in circles for five hours.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
all that and chariot racing too. Truly you are the new Rome

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, Rome's got nothin' on us.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 09:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well when one of your presidents torches rome, sleeps with his sister and gets a horse sworn into congress I'll admit that.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 09:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rome? I meant Washington.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 09:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure we could swing it, but probably not this go-round.  We're a bit short on Southerners for 2008.


Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 10:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus, remember, our tax cuts pay for themselves, but you Godless commits across the Pond apparently didn't get the memo.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah it's that no taxation without representation gig isn't it. so as you get tax cuts, you get less represented by your government?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's right.  No taxation without representation.

You know, I think we may be the only country in history to have ever launched a revolution after having our taxes cut.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well it was just that you hadn't invented bathtubs yet, so didn't  know what to do with governments?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not true.  Everybody knows it's the French who couldn't get it together on bathtubs.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so not just capable of writing but a dangerous knowledge of geography and history, I'm surprised that you havnt been locked up as a dangerous interlectual ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And stereotypes, thank you very much.  It's my saving grace.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still, if the Americans didn't rescue us, who would?

It's not like we can/want to do it ourselves.

Remember how well we handled the Balkan conflicts until the Americans bailed us out?

European countries just don't seem to care about security (except France and the occasional sidekick venturing into Africa).

Well, and the Brits who do what the Americans tell them too.

And all the frontline states and former communist occupied states who desperately try to make the Americans happy so they'll be protected from Russia.

Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital?

Is it a case of: who is happy to play me for a schmuck, take what I'm schmuck enough to give them, and just not care if I get upset?

As I've understood things so far, our dangers are from within (e.g. growing alienated "under" classes; e.g. rich elites taking too much and leaving too many without necessities--they certainly), and also from without: we are "rich"; and as America implodes or draws back, sorts out its problems, Europe will be more comfortable, maybe--I don't know, but while we fund the "big power" battles, however we fund them, we'll get targeted as "supporters of big power battles"....

So....do we have to support one them?  Should it be called "Europe", knowing what we do about the lack of basic morals involved at the high end of finance (I think the exceptions, being so exceptional...do they prove the rule?)...heh...

I would like to see a common european defence policy, but look at our "leaders"--I have to suffer Gordon Brown!  I'm watching America get its act together on renewables, and in five years there will be those countries at the forefront of the green revolution, and a brit politician will announce that, "The government has come to an agreement with Al-Knussen-Pen-Hi-Prom.  They will set up factories here.  Of course, we've said they won't have to pay any taxes."

The enemy!  Who or what is it or are they?  Ho heh.....<cough>....

Er....

hmmmmm....

(I'm listening to that piece below)

Jean Sibelius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like many of his contemporaries, Sibelius was initially enamored with the music of Wagner. A performance of Parsifal at the Bayreuth Festival had a strong effect on him, inspiring him to write to his wife shortly thereafter, "Nothing in the world has made such an impression on me, it moves the very strings of my heart." He studied the scores of Wagner's operas Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, and Die Walküre intently. With this music in mind, Sibelius began work on an opera of his own, entitled Veneen luominen (The Building of the Boat).

However, his appreciation for Wagner waned and Sibelius ultimately rejected Wagner's Leitmotif compositional technique, considering it to be too deliberate and calculated. Departing from opera, he later used the musical material from the incomplete Veneen luominen in his Lemminkäinen Suite (1893).

More lasting influences included Ferruccio Busoni, Anton Bruckner and Tchaikovsky. Hints of Tchaikovsky's music are particularly evident in works such as Sibelius' First Symphony (1899) and his Violin Concerto (1905). Similarities to Bruckner are most strongly felt in the 'unmixed' timbral palette and sombre brass chorales of Sibelius' orchestration, as well as in the latter composer's fondness for pedal points and in the underlying slow pace of his music.

Sibelius progressively stripped away formal markers of sonata form in his work and, instead of contrasting multiple themes, he focused on the idea of continuously evolving cells and fragments culminating in a grand statement. His later works are remarkable for their sense of unbroken development, progressing by means of thematic permutations and derivations. The completeness and organic feel of this synthesis has prompted some to suggest that Sibelius began his works with their finished statement and worked backwards, although analyses showing these predominantly three- and four-note cells and melodic fragments as they are developed and expanded into the larger "themes" effectively prove the opposite.[1]

Hope you enjoy!



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I can lean out the winda and get a whiff of 'is triplets, cos 'e only lived just up the road. Nice fella. Smoked a lot.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 05:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rescue us from whom? The problem is precisely that the European security apparatus is entirely predicated around depending on the US and is subordinate to US interests, not European ones.

The trans-atlantic link is responsible for that and the US has actively campaigned to keep it that way.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 04:02:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We do have the EU Battlegroup (kampfgruppe!) stuff going on, but that is the sole light in the valley of the shadow of death which is EU security policy.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 08:34:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And still, that is an expeditionary thing, not something which has to do with security of Europe except indirectly.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 08:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And what does NATO have to do with the security of Europe directly?

It boggles the mind that the EU Member states think an EU Common Foreign and Security Policy worth its name, and a proper European Defence Agency, are a threat to their sovereignty, but that NATO where they do what the US says is not.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 08:45:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no problem at all, really, with an EU Common Foreign and Security Policy worth its name and a proper European Defence Agency, even though I can't see much use in the second as we already have NATO.

NATO exists. NATO works. Why change something that works and replace it with something that might not?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 08:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NATO works? For what value of "works"?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 09:15:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By providing a definite security guarantee and a common command & control structure?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 09:27:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember how well we handled the Balkan conflicts until the Americans bailed us out?
Migeru:

As for Bosnia, Europe's failure there is responsible for the decision to create a European Common Foreign and Security Policy, which did not exist before. So, again, you can't fault Europe for not using a tool that did not exist before 1995.

Regarding Kosovo, UpstateNY has provided interesting insights into the less-than-helpful diplomacy conducted by the US. I shall dig up the links.

When you say
Well, and the Brits who do what the Americans tell them too.

And all the frontline states and former communist occupied states who desperately try to make the Americans happy so they'll be protected from Russia.

Anyone starting to see the problem with European security policy and institutions, and why the transtalantic link is vital?

I think the problem is the transatlantic link. When France, Belgium and Germany wanted to get some European Defence structure in place the UK insisted it not be left out, and subsequently torpedoes it because it was redundant with NATO. As for the new EU member states, they seem to want to stick it in the eye to Russia out of spite and coddling up to the US allows them to do that.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 09:05:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and Norway has that ride at Epcot.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:32:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As a further diary assignment, can someone (no not someone) explain to me how the world looks from the point of view of a normal American? Or a normal European, for that matter.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:37:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought I already had....

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs
by redstar on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are the normal ones; it's everyone else who is crazy. :)

I would suggest that America is too diverse to say how the world looks from the point of view of a normal American.  A normal African-American?  A normal Texan?  A normal Manhattan-ite?  A normal 30-something? A normal retiree?  A normal suburbanite?  I will say this: I am constantly shocked, appalled and impressed by Americans I know.  If I learned anything from my little foray into politics, it is that you simply cannot assume anything about anyone - they will prove you wrong.  And I get out, you know, am engaged with the world around me.  There is just a very diverse set of experiences in the big country.  So, if you are looking for some illumination, good luck.  Half of us here are looking for it too...

But Drew is right: there is little coverage of Europe here unless you have a bombing or school shooting or something...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
unless you have a bombing or school shooting or something...

Or the Brits setting London on fire again.  But they were about due for another one....


Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:02:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It wasn't the Brits in 1666.

Samuel Pepys, 5th September 1666, while the Fire was raging:

discourses now begun that there is a plot in it and that the French had done it

Who else?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL!  I love it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That'd be difficult to diary, because, as in Europe, Americans vary so much by region.  Or even by zip code.

Poemless or Izzy might be the good bet, but I may give it a shot.

I think the typical American likely kinda-sorta keeps up with what goes on in the world, but will also have a tendency to say, "Jesus, the world's going to hell.  I can't keep up with this."  And I sympathize with that view to a large degree, because it's difficult to balance all of the issues (the war, the economy and health care, situations like Darfur, climate change, terrorism, the alarming disappearance among middle-class white women), but it doesn't make the view any less dangerous.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:59:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
since knowledge of and sentiments towards the outside world are distributed very unevenly, and don't average all that well.
by wu ming on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 12:14:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To me "Americans" = the US public, and "United States" and "US foreign policy" refers to the government. "America" is a toss up.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And thank god for that.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why pulling your leg?  I suspect you'd find the typical American really knows little about, and really couldn't care less about, European foreign and security policy, unless it offers an opportunity to harass the French -- and even that has all but died off with the arrival of Sarkozy, whom we apparently like (per the fantasies of the press) for some reason.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the matter's been hashed out in the thread.

Your sentence implies that US strategy under the NATO umbrella (or foreign policy in general) is in some way related (consequental? subordinate?) to the will of the American people. I can't help but find the idea hilarious.

My impression has always been that the average John Doe could care less about foreign policy. And is amazingly uninformed. Clapping seals for the most part.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:06:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your impression was my point.  My point was that the government's actions with regard to European foreign and security policy weren't connected with the view of the American public.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:15:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is why I felt you were indulging in irony.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, okay.  Gotta bear with me.  I'm a bit slow.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the best text you have written in quite some time. Excellent!

Some comments:

Where the European project is founded on the rule of law, Moscow believes that laws are mere expressions of power - and that when the balance of power changes, laws should be changed to reflect it.

And the people who wrote this paper are retired EU foreign officials. It's not only in America the Realists have been sidelined. Sad...

By the way, it's totally surreal that they can get unbundling into any discussion, no matter what the subject is!

This is where the lack of an actual European energy policy brings again the focus on tools and instruments, and those are the ones preferred by the deregulation ayatollahs favored by the British government and the City traders and banks they represent: prevent the secure, reasonably cheap procurement of gas by the big players under long term contracts so that the small ones can join the fun too and take their cut along the way.

Yes, yes, yes!

The EU is the only place in the world that wants to ban the only kind of contract that can support the construction of gas infrastructure...

Gaah!

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Nov 11th, 2007 at 11:53:33 PM EST
Remember that ExxonMobil is favorable to long term contracts and has sold all the gas it has the right to in Qatar under such contracts - because that's the only way to finance the huge investments required.

Both sellers and buyers in this emertging gas market  are constrained by the infrastructure costs.

As you have pointed out, Russia is probably more constrained by their EU gas monopsony than the EU is by its Russian supplier constraints.

What has been lacking has been a viable enterprise model for the necessary infastructure utility.

That's where the partnership-based enterprise model I advocate is genuinely new.

Furthermore, while it has historically been the case that the only solution for funding these projects has been "defit-based" but "asset-backed" loans secured against future production, there is now an "asset-based" alternative using new forms of legal vehicle as a framework for ownership and operation of infrastructure.

It is perfectly straightforward to create asset-based alternative finance based upon a pool of future production and potentially giving rise to a globally fungible energy-based (as opposed to the impractical and unworkable emissions-based) "Carbon Dollar".

Moreover, such a "Pool" could be achieved immediately simply by refinancing existing infastructure.

Deficit financing is the problem, not the solution.  

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:19:35 AM EST

What has been lacking has been a viable enterprise model for the necessary infastructure utility.

That's where the partnership-based enterprise model I advocate is genuinely new.

It's called project finance, and it's what I have been doing for the past 10 years and the industry for even longer.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 08:47:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The bank you work for - unless I am entirely mistaken -is exactly like other credit intermediaries in that it creates credit on the basis of an amount of Capital set by BIS.

It then secures that credit against assets and future income from projects "owned" by governments or companies, who tend to invest as  small an amount of capital as they can in conventional "Equity".

Such a "deficit-based" but "asset-backed" solution is not what I am proposing, as I am sure you are aware.

I am proposing the "unitisation" of future energy production using as a framework simple new legal vehicles other than the existing "Corporation" so that productive assets may be "Co-owned" and production and/or revenues shared between the user of the finance and those who provide finance and development expertise either through:

(a) the use of "proportional" Equity shares/ "partnership interests";

(b) interest-free "energy loans" -  whereby energy units are simply sold forward; or

(c) both.

The partnership-based model which makes this possible is already emerging in the commercial sector in the UK and I set out in a couple of recent articles in "Energy Risk" an alternative structure for the UK wholesale electricity market.

The business of credit creation which you are in is part of the problem, not part of the solution IMHO.

Your Bank's role should in fact be as a service provider bringing investors together with investment,on the one hand, and managing the creation of bilateral "trade credit" on the other.

There is simply no need for your Bank to put Capital at risk by creating credit based upon it, so why continue to do it?

The world has moved on, and the first banks to realise this will IMHO wipe the floor with their competition.

Just because you've been working within one model for years doesn't mean that you couldn't apply your skills and experience to an alternative.

Or is that entirely unthinkable?

Standing on a one line assertion like that is not really what I would have expected. You forget I have 20 years' experience in the market, too albeit from a different perspective.

If I am wrong, tell me in what respect?  

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 09:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to "create" money in that you need to spend a lot of money upfront that will only be paid back over a long period.

And no, the constructors do NOT want to take project risk - they just want to be paid right away to build what they are supposed to build. They are not investors, not banks, and they won't take energy IOUs or whatever else, just cash right away.

So someone needs to cough up that money at the beginning.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 10:47:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is in fact a difference between "Money" and "Credit", albeit the conventional creation of "Money as Debt" clouds that point.

Money doesn't build you anything: "Money's Worth" does.

There are manufacturers prepared to build on credit terms on the basis that they, or related companies have long term supply contracts at an agreed market pricing formula.

Equally, there are other manufacturers, who maybe build to better standards, who insist on money now. I don't see why any supplier should not be expected to operate on the basis that they cover costs - on an "open book" basis - and receive what would otherwise be their "Profit margin" as a piece of the future production flow - particularly if they are operating the asset, too.

Thereby aligning the interests of the manufacturer with the customer.

In that case, yes, a "rump" of development credits are necessary to cover costs, possibly from investors, ideally from a pool of development credits (eg from a carbon tax) in public ownership, and built up over time.

"Commercial" Partnership Equity requires a return on investment commensurate with risk, like any other equity. The difference being that Partnership Equity is less risky than conventional Equity because it will be alongside a management partner, as opposed to after the manager or developer's cut as an intermediary.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 12:18:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There are manufacturers prepared to build on credit terms on the basis that they, or related companies have long term supply contracts at an agreed market pricing formula.

This is quite simply false. Manufacturers are, very occasionally involved as sponsors of projects, but they try to sell as soon as the contract with them, as contractor, is in place. They want cash, now.

If you have manufacturers willing to be paid in cubic meter of gas or kWh, you should start a business, because you'd make a lot of money. This simply does not happen.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My understanding is that the Chinese will build pretty much anything on low or no interest trade credit provided they get their hands on the output. No doubt that's wrong.

As for being paid in gas or KwHr I'm talking about entitlement to units in a pool of future production. Once a project is complete, that is an asset which will have a market price.

If a manufacturer wishes to sell his rights to those units that's fine, as if he had conventional Equity in a PFI or similar.

Quibbling about the source of development credits is rather beside the point. The world is awash in credits, why does it needs a bank to create them?

My principal point is that there is no reason at all why units in pools of energy production in completed projects should not be a completely new asset class capable of forming an "asset-based" "carbon dollar" currency.

In particular, no reason why existing projects should not be refinanced in this way to create such an asset class.

I can see the value Banks can provide as service providers, but:

(a) what value do Banks add as intermediaries other than an implicit guarantee of the borrower's credit? and

(b) what has a Central Bank's interest rate got to do with the cost of that guarantee to the Bank?


"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 01:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the Chinese will build pretty much anything on low or no interest trade credit provided they get their hands on the output. No doubt that's wrong.

It's not the same Chinese that build and that buy the output.


As for being paid in gas or KwHr I'm talking about entitlement to units in a pool of future production. Once a project is complete, that is an asset which will have a market price.

But that's the problem. The builder does not want to be paid only if the project is complete, or if it performs, or if the market price is high enough. It wants to be paid the agreed price, full stop. Why do you insist on making it takes risks it does not want to take??


 what value do Banks add as intermediaries other than an implicit guarantee of the borrower's credit?

Please go check what "project finance" is. Please.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 04:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Per Wikipedia

Project Finance

is the financing of long-term infrastructure and industrial projects based upon a complex financial structure where project debt and equity are used to finance the project, and debt is repaid using the cashflow generated by operation of the project, rather than the general assets or creditworthiness of the project sponsors.

Do banks create the "project debt" = credit that finances the project or not? Or am I imagining that?

It's not the same Chinese that build and that buy the output

What difference does it make? They are all arms of the State to a greater or lesser degree.

But that's the problem. The builder does not want to be paid only if the project is complete, or if it performs, or if the market price is high enough. It wants to be paid the agreed price, full stop. Why do you insist on making it takes risks it does not want to take??

I already said up-thread that if a builder needs his costs paying because he cannot afford to invest then that's fine: development credit will be necessary.

But an agreed profit margin, with an "open book" approach and consensual partnership negotiation, can and should be "invested" so the contractor has "skin in the game" and a stake in the outcome.

When the project is complete he gets a proportional share in the flow of property rentals, energy, or other production, and he is free to sell this proportional "Equity Share" off on the open market in the same way he could sell off equity in a PFI -except that forward production should be considerably "cleaner" and easier to value and more attractive than  shares in the net profits or a PFI company.

That's why Income and Royalty trusts are so popular in Canada.

Anyway, I'm tired of going over the same ground. I should know better: I shouldn't expect you to agree with what is in effect an existential criticism.  

As you will know, I believe that the deficit basis of "Money as Debt" is simply unsustainable and that the global economy  is in the process of breaking down terminally in the face of the conflict between finite resources and infinite monetary claims upon them.

I believe that I have identified an "emerging"  alternative enterprise model to the current "broken" ande conflicted mixtures of debt and equity.

I aim to demonstrate this by working with like-minded people to develop and implement pilot schemes and build upon them.

So I'll just leave it at that.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 05:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do banks create the "project debt" = credit that finances the project or not? Or am I imagining that?

Hmmm...a click too fast. I am imagining that. The SPV issues both debt and equity.

OK, point taken: that means the form of banking you practise is not as a credit intermediary.

Which is fine: I have no difficulty with banking as a profession. It's credit intermediation which is the problem.

But you could still use a simpler SPV.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, tell me if I've got this all wrong.

development credit will be necessary

So one entity will have to put their skin in the game.

But an agreed profit margin, with an "open book" approach and consensual partnership negotiation, can and should be "invested" so the contractor has "skin in the game" and a stake in the outcome.

Now we have another entity with skin in the game.

The first: the financiers; the second: the builders.

Jerome suggests that the investors (the financiers) want a different thing to the contractors.  The contractor wants "cash on delivery"--hence the investment.  The investors want "the product", which they guess (they gamble, maybe a very educated guess) that the product will be worth more than the contractor charged to build the means of production.

He says: if you don't pay the contractor upon completion, you won't get any contractors.

Contractors refuse to put their skin in the game.  They don't gamble.  They build a thing and get paid just as soon as part a) of the thing is built; and then part b).  Or maybe they agree to build the whole thing before getting paid, so that's their risk--and, he's saying (if I'm reading this right--) that they don't want to go any further.

Okay, you say, so we need "development credit" to pay off this contractor.  That's what the financiers offer.

Where does that credit come from?  A person, people, organisation or organisations with money (no matter where the money came from originally--let's pretend their mobsters looking to launder some drug cash--the nephew of a capo is big on "the green thing" and another capo was talking about how his garden's gone crazy and this global warming shit, we should take notice--so they decide to launder launder, and when the money's clean they invest it in a wind farm.

So there's your money.  The contractor builds and gets paid off.  The product appears and the dirty money is now making clean money and renewable energy.

You think it is advantageous for both parties to take the same risk.  Or have I got that all wrong?

You think it is better for the financiers to become partners rather than owners.  You think it is better for the contractor to become an owner rather than an "odd jobber".

?

%:8)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:19:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please go check what "project finance" is. Please.

Reading the Wikipedia entry, it sounds fantastically exciting!

I have to check up with the university what you are supposed to study to get into this field. :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Beginners (in France anyway) will typically have a technical (engineering, science, etc) major with possibly a finance minor.

We tend to recruit people with good formal education (graduates, post-graduates, etc - and mostly from the grandes Ecoles for French people).

Work is mostly based in London, with a few big teams in Paris, and a few others in places like Frankfurt, Munich, Dublin.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 05:41:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks so much for this! I have said on other forums that European leaders have different standard for the US and a different standard for nations, like Russia. These same leaders condemn poverty and human rights violations in other nations and other parts of the world - except when and by the USA.

I recall a while back, with regard to the PNR data agreement between the US and the EU, a MEP said, "would we have this same agreement with Russia as we have with US?"

I think not!

The problem could be a kind psychological bondage to the US fear of the "anti-American" label. At the same time, to be outraged by CIA abductions is shouted down as "anti-American."  The effect is that the US is excused for its conduct, and let us not forget that some Europeans went along with the "renditions."  How many Europeans would fear the "anti-Russian" or "anti-Chinese" labels as much as the "anti-American" label?

AND - unless and until Europeans start choosing leaders that actually do care more about an independent Europe than pampering the Americans - I'm afraid that this excusing of American bad conduct will continue and the US will continue to have free reign both Europe and in the larger world.

by euamerican on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 03:14:09 PM EST
Funny. It's exactly the opposite in Sweden.

Russia or China are almost never critiziced, and if they are it's for far greater transgression than the Americans commit.

Everything the Americans do is intensely scrutinised and held to far higher levels of conduct than other countries are. Anti-americanism is trendy in the media.

The slightest worry about Russia results in accusations of "paranoia" and "rysskräck".

Paradoxically, the reason why America is held to such high standards is that Swedes are incredibly pro-American (they just hate Bush), and the reason that all Russian transgressions are ignored is because everyone knows that Russians are, well, Russians.

The people who wrecked our empire, invaded Finland, occupied half of Europe for half a century, vaporized Groznyj and burnt our entire Baltic coast 200 years ago. That's just what they do and you can't expect better from them, right? Rysskräck does permeate society, but everytime you mention any risks you are hollered at. But the media has no problem wipping up rysskräck even when it's unwarranted (for example the Baltic gas pipeline which is a big foreign policy issue here) while at the same time condemning the wipping up of rysskräck.

A fascinating paradox, or several really.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 at 06:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And guess when the same formula will be applied....

When? Perhaps sooner than one might think -- according to Dante, parts of Hell have already frozen over.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Tue Nov 13th, 2007 at 09:24:29 PM EST
I'm a day late and many dollars short in this thread.

My first impression is that Fischer has blown this same trumpet a month or so ago. The wild overgeneralizations of these statements sound actually more like a sheep bleating in a pasture than a trumpet, and instead of trying to figure out what the sheep is saying, I tend to think of the exigence of the message. The sheep has made the same bleating sound twice in a span of two months.

Well, Germany is not happy, obviously. And when the big boss of the EU says to his minions, why can't we get it together?, he's really saying, you're not following my best interests when I'm doling out the cash. In fact, with the addition of the new EU partners, the old beneficiaries of Germany's largesse (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain, Ireland) are less beholden now to the center of the EU than ever before. Essentially, I read this as a lament for Germany's lost influence.

As an American with an EU passport who wants to see the continent do well, I can't help but think there's a rot at the core of Fischer's approach. It reeks of a history of power plays in which decisions are, as the Russians rightly imagine them, derived from projections of power into a game of competing interests. Laws can't carry the weight of history. In the US, in our stupidity and our naivete, we actually believed in this fantasy of laws for awhile, but it took some cagey nihilists to expose for us the vast void in our very constitution. It should have been obvious all along that our chief executive controlled all the strings, that the many pages of laws creating checks and balances could be completely undercut, and easily.

It's hardly worthwhile to discuss the will of citizens on either continent when what is really at stake here are the interests of corporate elites. American imperialism is another word for corporate war by proxy, a game that Europe also knows well.

This is the way the US operates:

http://hannah.smith-family.com/archive/000959.html

Read this and realize that this behemoth was planned long before 1999.

Does Europe not operate in a similar fashion? What of France's interests in Iraq before the US moved in? What of the premature recognition of Balkan states in 1991, primarily by Germany? We are only 50 years removed from African colonies. Libya was a friend was an enemy was a friend.

I find it very difficult these days to talk of countries and peoples and electorates at all when it seems as though all decisions are made by corporate elites.

I can take the point-of-view of Cyprus here a bit, bought and paid for by Russian money coursing through the island's economic system. Of course they do Russia's bidding. I flip it a little and also see that were it not for Russia's votes in the UN Security Council, the UN resolutions deeming the 1974 Turkish invasion illegal may have been overturned. There is actually more convergence between Russia and a few EU member states than between those EU member states and Brussels! And, in fact, I would go so far as to say there is more convergence between Brussels and certain non-EU member states such as Turkey than between Brussels and certain other EU member states!

How can a common EU policy be developed when each EU nation borders another with possibly competing interests.

What's often missed in the critique of a transatlantic alliance is the term transatlantic. There's an ocean between us. This allows for fewer material contingencies in US-Euro relationships. Think of it as a puzzle with the ocean a giant piece. Easy to find and fix in place. Now try snugly fitting Kosovo in between Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, and Serbia. You can't.

by Upstate NY on Wed Nov 14th, 2007 at 11:04:04 AM EST


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