European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Lovely. Thank you.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 12:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a fabulous photo! I'm still trying to get a presentation done. It's one of those where I write one sentence and let my mind wander for an hour before I can work out what the next sentence should be.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 12:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your photoblogging diary inspired me!

Gah, I know how you feel about the presentation. Sometimes I need to just get up and go have a glass of wine or something, then come back to it.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:06:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A glass of wine? What a good idea.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:11:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Done, and with a toast to you both.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Reading the last book in Chalmers Johnson's Blowback trilogy.It's called "Nemesis". Certainly the most frightening and most important book of the year for me- perhaps for my life.
A treasure- and a nightmare.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 12:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not the sort of thing I say lightly.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 12:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why did it catch you so hard, what's there?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That´s beautiful, stormy!

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Beautiful picture, Stormy!

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Saramago's Blindness (4.00 / 3)

hey there.

i finally just finished Blindness by Saramago.

i'm not sure if it was my brother's cryptic "Just read it" or your praise for Saramago or the fact that he won the Nobel. but i've got to say, i was not as enthusiastic about it as i had hoped i would be.

maybe it was a case of expectations being set too high. or maybe he is just so different, i was not able to understand what he was trying to say.

i also hope the original Portugese is much better than the English, not necessarily due to the translator's fault, but simply because Saramago's style is so unique.

having said this, i was intrigued (maybe disturbed is the better word) enough that right after finishing it i rushed online to see what others have said about it, for further illumination.

i discovered, as you've pointed out here before, that he followed up with a companion book titled Seeing. also, Blindness is being made into a movie. Julianne Moore will play the doctor's wife, which seems like pretty good casting, though i would have preferred someone slightly less conventionally, femininely pretty (not that the doctor's wife struck me as particular "masculine" in any way, but Saramago clearly emphasizes her other traits much more than her looks -- and it is not an trifling point in his novel.)

i also learned about The Gospel According to Jesus Christ. can't believe i had never heard of that book before.

will need to read Seeing next, and then Blindness again. maybe i will understand it better the second time.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 03:35:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm, perhaps I should have been less enthusiastic so as not to raise your expectations too high. I'm sorry you found it underwhelming. I probably should have mentioned that not everyone I know shares my enthusiasm for the book. Opinion among my friends is pretty evenly divided, with about half being wildly enthusiastic and half being sort of indifferent. Most of those who haven't liked it say they found it depressing or too dark. (For me, "depressing" and "dark" are often what I look for in a novel, but I also didn't find Blindness to be particularly depressing. In fact, I found it sort of uplifting, but that probably says more about me than it does about the book.)

Saramago's style is unique, and it usually takes me a couple of pages to adjust to it. And sometimes I have to go back and read through a passage more than once to be sure of who's saying what. I quite like his style, and I think it adds to the... I don't really know how to say what I'm thinking here, but I guess it adds to the consciousness of the novels. He's writing about Big Things, and the style seems to me to be at once organic (unencumbered by quotation marks, much punctuation, or all that he-said she-said stuff) and also consciously artificial, in that he's forcing the act of reading to become part of the process of understanding. I'm not sure if I'm being very clear.

Most of the other Saramago books I have read have had a different translator (Margaret Jull Costa), with whom (from what I've read) the author has a very good relationship. But Blindness and The Stone Raft are both translated by a different person (Giovanni Pontiero) and I don't know anything about him, so I wonder whether that would have made a difference. I get the feeling that Saramago is quite involved in the translation process, and the style is consistent in English regardless of the translator, so perhaps not. I speak very little Portuguese, so I haven't attempted to read anything in the original language, but that remains on my list of things to do before I die....

I had no idea that Blindness was being made into a movie. The idea actually fills me with dread. I like Julianne Moore a lot, but I can't imagine that Hollywood would be able to render this book into film with anything like the thoughtfulness that it would require. Do you know who the director is?

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 05:34:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm, I just looked it up. The director is Fernando Meirelles, who also did The Constant Gardener and City of God. I am less filled with dread now. But still wary.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 05:38:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saramago's Blindness (none / 1)

yeah, i suspected you might be leery of a movie version of the book. but like you, i was somewhat relieved by who was going to be directing it.

Saramago's style is unique, and it usually takes me a couple of pages to adjust to it. And sometimes I have to go back and read through a passage more than once to be sure of who's saying what. I quite like his style, and I think it adds to the... I don't really know how to say what I'm thinking here, but I guess it adds to the consciousness of the novels. He's writing about Big Things, and the style seems to me to be at once organic (unencumbered by quotation marks, much punctuation, or all that he-said she-said stuff) and also consciously artificial, in that he's forcing the act of reading to become part of the process of understanding. I'm not sure if I'm being very clear.

actually, it makes a lot of sense. and one of the things that impressed me about this novel was how his (can i say) "opaque" writing style gives us a certain "blindness" or "disorientation" about events and identity in the story, and in a sense making the reader "blind" on a certain level. in a way, reading text is a form of blindness, since information -- though coming to us through the visual medium of printed language -- is a singularly non-sensorial phenomenon. well, that is not totally true. for hearing people at least, or for me at least, language has a strong auditory dimension. and of course language can recall non-auditory memories and sensations. but first and foremost it is auditory, not visual, and so, along with the aid of Saramago's literary style and the subject of his story, i started to identify with the blind characters. in fact, paradoxical as it may sound, on a few occasions, after putting the book down i continued to have the illusion that i was blind, or at least, disabled somehow in my ability to perceive the world. it's hard to explain: i had the impression that i was deprived of a fundamental mode of accessing the world, and thus cut off from it. i literally had to consciously "wake up" and say, "Hey, stupid, you're not blind, what the hell are you thinking?"

at first i assumed it was just his usual writing style, but then i thought, maybe it he was doing it intentionally for that purpose. does he write that way in most of his books?

i've been trying to figure out why the book did not hit me so hard though. i think perhaps it was because although i had that weird phenomenological identification with the characters' -- and the entire world's -- total blindness, i could not identify to any of the characters individually. well, that's not true: i loved the dog of tears. it was amazing how well Saramago described him. in a way, he was the most vivid, flesh and blood character in the story for me. maybe because dogs are non-language creatures, whose "essence" does not rely so much on having a name, which is basically a language thing. on the other hand, i wonder if something as superficial as the characters' not having names was a significant block for me not to be able to relate to them, fellow creatures of names and words as i am. (but on reflection, i think that is not the case: i believe there was one book, maybe it was short story, in which none of the characters had names, and yet i related to them very strongly. was it a Steinbeck? no, both The Red Pony and The Pearl had named characters. damn, i can't remember anymore.)

oddly enough, the dialogues between the women, especially the girl with the sunglasses and the doctor's wife were the most moving for me. the depictions of the men the least convincing. the doctor and the old man with the eyepatch were somewhat sympathetic and realistic, but i cared far less about them than the women, even perhaps the wife of the first blind man. and certainly less than the dog of tears. (and maybe i am being a little too cynical here, but i got the feeling that Saramago was fantasizing himself as the man with the eye patch.)

you know what, i just thought of this, but in a way, this book reminds me of Camus's L'Etranger, but maybe for unflattering reasons: the unromanticized, almost cold, almost cynical depiction of impersonal characters representing social archetypes; the depiction of people as creatures of habit, superficiality, and social falsities; the discomfiting, and almost forced, removal of the narrator from the heart of the story, the clinical, almost patronizing tone. i think Saramago, at least in this book, is ultimately hopeful about people and their potential for "goodness", but i find it hard it hard to reconcile that with his style and approach.

okay, i am really rambling too much, but was good to try to hash out some half-articulated thoughts and impressions from reading the book...

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 07:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What a fascinating response to the book. I too was drawn to the female characters, and have been in several of his other books too.

i continued to have the illusion that i was blind, or at least, disabled somehow in my ability to perceive the world.

While I didn't have that sort of quasi-physiological response, I do think that's part of what Saramago intended -- to question our ways of perceiving, strip away some of the trappings of identity. Who am I to you? The girl with the dark glasses, the man with the eye patch, the doctor, the doctor's wife -- everyone is identified in relation to something or someone else, and superficially. We are not these things, our possessions and objects that define us can be lost, but how much does that change who we are at our cores? Knowing she's "the doctor's wife" tells you nothing about who she is, but would her name being Nadia tell us more? We know who she is without knowing that.

The dog of tears is an extraordinary character. He returns in Seeing, and there is another wonderful dog-character named Found in The Cave.

And yes, Saramago's writing style is the same in all his books. Characters in other books get names, and in some of them the names are quite central, in a way. I'm thinking mainly of All The Names but also The Double, both of which deal with the inadequacies of these data for classifying a life - name, date of birth, place of birth, date of marriage, date of death, home address, even one's face. They are the things we use to identify ourselves and others, but they do not add up to an identity.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 08:09:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7442992

Knowing she's "the doctor's wife" tells you nothing about who she is, but would her name being Nadia tell us more? We know who she is without knowing that.

that's the crazy thing. i don't think it's ever occurred to me before, but i think somehow a person having a name makes them easier for me to relate to/sympathize with/become attached to. it's not rational, i know, but there it is. although, i admit, i did grow attached to the doctor's wife and the girl with the dark glasses, and to i guess to a certain degree to the man with the eye patch as well. i just wonder if i wouldn't have done more so if they had names.

will be interesting to see how they pull this off in the movie, doing the dialogue between the characters without using any names at all.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 18th, 2007 at 08:40:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Drive-by commenting (4.00 / 12)

Apologies to DoDo if he has already posted about this in the Salon or something...

Spain yesterday tested the new high-speed, international gauge, line from Madrid to Valladolid, which has been planned for 18 (!) years. Even though the catenary is in place, a diesel engine (which had in the past set the world record for speed by diesel engines, according to a local newspaper here in Valladolid) was used. The line will be tested for 6 weeks, soon with the high-speed electric trainsets, and will come into service on December 23. This line is part of the Madrid-Irún line which will allow high-speed trains to run between Madrid and Paris in under 10 hours (maybe DoDo knows the planned travel time for this future route).

The new high-speed line will connect Madrid with Segovia in 35 minutes for €20 and Madrid and Valladolid in 55 minutes for €30 (€50 return). Valladolid is the capital of the Castilla-León Autonomous Community and an important economic and logistic centre in North-West Spain. IMHO it is easy to underestimate the importance of this new transport link. I think the economic effect will be major, as it has been for the links between Madrid, Toledo, Ciudad Real and Sevilla.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:06:25 PM EST

Re: Drive-by commenting (4.00 / 5)

Even though the catenary is in place, a diesel engine (which had in the past set the world record for speed by diesel engines, according to a local newspaper here in Valladolid) was used.

That 'diesel engine' is actually a diesel multiple unit (DMU), the Talgo XXI, which is fitted out and used as a specialised test train, and normal practice when commissioning high-speed lines is to go up with test run top speed in steps of 30 km/h steps, so its use shouldn't be surprising.

The Talgo XXI, aka "Virgen del Rocío", aka BT001, aka AVE/RENFE 355 001, was built as a gauge-changing train prototype in 2002. It achieved a world record of 256.38 km/h for DMUs, snatching it from Britain's HST (while the diesel engine world record is actually higher, 275 km/h by a Russian loco).

A picture of the train after conversion to test train for GIF and re-painting in the scheme of Zapatero-era GIF successor ADIF:

This line is part of the Madrid-Irún line which will allow high-speed trains to run between Madrid and Paris in under 10 hours (maybe DoDo knows the planned travel time for this future route).

With no definite route set on half the missing sections, it is a bit early to predict travel time. Would it all be fully built out for 360 km/h with no gaps, it could be around four hours non-stop. But realistically, we can be happy with six hours in 2016, with seven more likely (2h10 Paris-Bordeaux, maybe 2h30m Madrid-Irún, what's critical is in-between in France).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drive-by commenting (none / 1)

The Talgo XXI, aka "Virgen del Rocío", aka BT001, aka AVE/RENFE 355 001

Nitpicking myself: there are actually two of them, but see the picture. (ADIF also owns the single Talgo 350 prototype for similar purposes but higher speeds & electric traction.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 05:35:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drive-by commenting (none / 1)

This line is part of the Madrid-Irún line which will allow high-speed trains to run between Madrid and Paris in under 10 hours (maybe DoDo knows the planned travel time for this future route).
With no definite route set on half the missing sections, it is a bit early to predict travel time. Would it all be fully built out for 360 km/h with no gaps, it could be around four hours non-stop. But realistically, we can be happy with six hours in 2016, with seven more likely (2h10 Paris-Bordeaux, maybe 2h30m Madrid-Irún, what's critical is in-between in France).

Well, I knew Paris-Irún takes 5 hours with the TGV, so I was allowing 5 hours also for Madrid-Irún. Intermediate stops are likely to be at Segovia, Valladolid, Palencia, Burgos, Vitoria and San Sebastián. For faster service, I suppose one could do Valladolid, Burgos, Vitoria and San Sebastián, but I can't imagine Madrid-Irún being done in less than 3h30. I really doubt the high-speed train will stop at Irún if it already stops at Vitoria and/or San Sebastián.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 06:16:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drive-by commenting (4.00 / 2)

Paris-Irún takes 5½ hours today, but French infrastructure authority RFF is preparing the Sud Europe Atlantique line (high-speed to Bordeaux) and some upgrades to Dax.

Today Madrid-Irún is at best similarly 5½h. But how did you get at nothing under 3h30 with high-speed?

Madrid-Valladolid (179.6 km) is slated at an initial 0h55 (later 0h50), while Vitoria-San Sebastián on the in-construction Y Vasca (c. 110 km) at 0h34m. Nothing is definite for Valladolid-Burgos-Vitoria (c. 220 km), but Aznar-time general plans put Madrid-Vitoria at 1h35, Madrid-San Sebastián at 2h15 (and Valladolid at 0h50).

Direct Madrid-Paris, or even Madrid-Vitoria and Madrid-San Sebastián trains don't need to stop at intermediate stops (just as there are say direct Paris-Marseilles trains). Note that San Sebastián is not on the direct line to France (for that matter, Irún may be bypassed too), check on the Y Vasca map (and with bypass in this press release [pdf!]).

What might limit schedule plans in the medium term is problems with the signalling system ERTMS Lev 2. Madrid-Barcelona runs with 300 km/h only since a few months, and it seems plans to run the Siemens and Talgo trains at higher speeds (350 resp. 330 km/h) have been put on ice. But this should be solved by the time all of the Valladolid-Vitoria gap is built...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 11:23:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drive-by commenting (4.00 / 6)

Meanwhile, the Netherlands just decided to kill the high speed line from Schiphol to Groningen, preferring to spend the money on road construction (well, only part of the money, but still...)

And the Dutch train drivers are preparing a strike on international trains starting monday.

Sigh...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 07:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drive-by commenting (4.00 / 4)

The state board that is planning California's 700-mile high-speed rail system is facing a politically sensitive route decision that could make or break the $40 billion project. The nine-member board of the California High-Speed Rail Authority is scheduled to decide next month how to get the bullet trains through the coastal mountains between the San Joaquin Valley and the San Francisco Bay area, and the debate over the options has become fierce.
The authority is proposing a rail system that would carry passengers between California's largest cities on trains that run at top speeds of more than 200 mph. Supporters see it as an important third option to freeway and air travel as the state's population heads toward 60 million by 2050.

by asdf on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 11:57:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drive-by commenting (4.00 / 4)

Its when the transport tasks and the politics get tangled up that we get to the cross your fingers and hope stage.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 12:44:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i'm hoping for the altamont route (4.00 / 3)

as it would bring it closer to sacramento, and thus within a hop, skip and a jump from where i am. ther southern route will leave the capital region out of the loop awaiting a "to be built later" spur line.

by wu ming on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 04:00:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I don't live in Sacramento ... (none / 1)

... and I agree ... both for how the layout works regionally and for how the layout works for inter-regional connections.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Nov 18th, 2007 at 11:28:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Two recent items from the FP Passport blog...

When recycling goes a bit too far... and bridge ladies get political.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:14:15 PM EST

New Statesman - Nightmare at Camp Bondsteel

Good on 'em, the bridge ladies!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:19:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 5)

I searched the ET archive and didn't find anything, so here goes. It's a most amazing U.S. base in Kosovo. Info on it claims that there are, for instance, 45 or so Blackhawk helicopters stationed there. No wonder the Russians don't want Kosovo to separate from Serbia.

It was constructed in the last two years of Clinton's presidency, which may say quite a lot about Hillary's political tendencies wrt neo-imperialism - if anything needs to be said.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:16:17 PM EST

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 3)

It was floated as a likely location for the CIA secret prisons in Eastern Europe when the story broke 2 years ago.

Apparently it's a huge, huge base, isn't it?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 8)

Sit yerselves down, folks, and listen up. It's my right as an amurkan to put my hi-tech warfare footprint down on any land and any people as my masters see fit. i don't care if the liberies and skools sind undergefundet, they ain't gonna git me know oil. From kosabo we kin fly anywhere, and ain't no one lookin. Them's the apples, stuff 'em afor ya get waterboardet.

Seriously, the base was originally called BondPeel, but Emma objected, as later did the CDO (Compulsively Derived Orifice-enhancer) meisters. It is stocked not only with special hardware designed to piss off the Putins of the world, but has a state of the art video studio, where Condi and her preznit get to make their underground domina smashes.

Smirk Off, i'm heading back to rehab.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 3)

Must be a strong wine you're drinking...

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:57:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 3)

Don't know what the cheese eating surrender monkeys put into this bottle of pedestrian boardux, but it's working. perhaps it was alcohol?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (none / 1)

Just drink it, but don't do a Paris-waiter-job on the bottle....

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 2)

huh ?
Paris-waiter-job on the bottle

Just curious....

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 2)

me too, meta. did i miss something obvious at the meetup?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:02:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (none / 1)

Good thing I am not the only one wondering.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OK, ok (none / 1)

Maybe dvx remembers? It was late evening at the corner restaurant from DL´s, we were outside sipping wine and the waiter, in a hurry to close up, hit the bottle against CH´s glass. Wine and glass flew everywhere.

And I thought I had black memory holes. (;

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, ok (none / 1)

Oh that. Since he refilled the new glass immediately, i didn't think anyone noticed.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 6)

a state of the art video studio, where Condi and her preznit get to make their underground domina smashes.

Damn you, Crazy Horse! You know I have a vivid imagination -- you shouldn't say things like this in front of me! I feel so sullied...

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 3)

sorry, izzy, thought you'd seen them already. Condi's boots are to die for, as millions have. but the preznit getting his knees red while she gives him the taste of the Inquisition...

absolute power 'n all.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 5)

OK, izzy, you can relax. just showered, and i feel clean, organic, and bursting with idealism like a good hippy. knowing that Euro MPs read this site, i'll apologize to the leaders for sullying the inevitable extra-high quality political and economic discussion here. won't happen again.

anyone want to see the videos from sarko's night with laura and the guy with the little dog, just after the love handles were digitally removed?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 2)

Wow, what kind of invigorating shower gel did you use? :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 2)

It wasn't invigorating gel, it was calming. Lavera Orange Buckthorn, whatever that is, and it did calm me, until i drank it. I probably shouldn't have washed with that Bordeaux. But i smell good. and i'm as calm as anyone whose girlfriend is away writing. a report.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 2)

It wasn't invigorating gel, it was calming, calming like knowing Fran's roundup will be there in the morning. Lavera Orange Buckthorn, whatever that is, and it did calm me, until i drank it. I probably shouldn't have washed with that Bordeaux. But i smell good. and i'm as calm as anyone whose girlfriend is away writing. a report.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two Different Comments? (none / 1)

See how calm i am?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (none / 1)

Talk us through it, CH, talk us through...

(Are we slaves to the image or can we stomach words?)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:26:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 2)

we are eye-candy slaves, so, for 14,99€, i can send you everything you need for this evening. but i will not demean this site with the coolest absolute-power-corrupts videos this side of Nero.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:00:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 9)

Found it:

Camp Bondsteel

The United States agreed to provide a force of approximately 7,000 US personnel as part of the NATO KFOR to help maintain a capable military force in Kosovo and to ensure the safe return of Kosovar refugees. The US supports KFOR by providing the headquarters and troops for one of the four NATO sectors. The US also provides personnel, units and equipment to other components of the KFOR organization.
Camp Bondsteel [CBS] is quite large: 955 acres or 360,000 square meters. If you were to run the outer perimeter, it is about 7 miles. Bondsteel is located on rolling hills and farmland near the city of Ferizaj/Urosevac. There are two dining facilities at Camp Bondsteel: one in North town and one in South town. The food is very well prepared and there are always a variety of main and side dishes to choose from. There are also salad bars, potato bars and multiple dessert offerings. Due to General Order #1, only alcohol-free beer is served, but it is better than nothing! There are set hours for meals, but each dining facility also has a 24-hour section for sandwiches, coffee, fruit, and continental breakfast items.

The site doesn't give specifics of forces stationed, but they make no bones about the fact that it's huge.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:47:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 3)

Due to General Order #1, only alcohol-free beer is served,

What other evidence of torture do you need?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:16:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 8)

Camp Bondsteel

Camp Bondsteel

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anybody here heard of Bondsteel? (4.00 / 9)

Here it is seen from the satellite image on Google Maps, including scale:

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

from a quick look around (4.00 / 3)

Djakova, Kosovo, 14 December. US helicopters appear in the sky; troops raid the school; aid workers are seized. Mark Almond reveals an episode of terror
President Bush's war on terrorism may not frighten Osama Bin Laden, but it certainly puts the fear of God into innocent suspects who get caught in the mill. On 14 December, three Muslim aid workers in Kosovo found themselves swept up by the global reach of the US counter-terrorist campaign and were held in solitary confinement for more than five weeks and interrogated.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:57:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And a collection of links (4.00 / 4)

Al-Muhajabah's Islamic Blogs: US ran Guantanamo-style prison in Kosovo - Council of Europe envoy

From an article¹: The US military ran a Guantanamo Bay-type detention centre in Kosovo, a top Council of Europe official said.

The Council of Europe's Human rights commissioner Alvaro Gil-Robles said he had been 'shocked' by conditions at the barbed wire-rimmed centre inside a US military base, which he witnessed in 2002.

The camp resembled 'a smaller version of Guantanamo', he told France's Le Monde newspaper, referring to the US centre at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where hundreds of terrorism suspects remain detained without trial. (link)

Via this Daily Kos diary and its comments, we find that Camp Bondsteel was a concern to European human rights groups as early as January 2002 because of existing beyond the law (which initially led it to be compared to Guantanamo) and because of allegations of torture there in December 2001. And the German newspaper Der Spiegel earlier this month speculated (in light of the Washington Post story) that Camp Bondsteel was a likely site for one of the CIA black sites (how could they resist a place that was already under control of the U.S. military, set up with a prison, and beyond the law?)

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:21:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And a collection of links (4.00 / 3)

Heh - they're quoting a diary of mine on dKos.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 05:00:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And a collection of links (4.00 / 2)

Al-Muhajabah is also known as lauramp, who has posted here occasionally, but not in a while.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 05:05:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And a collection of links (none / 1)

I was looking for quotes and just found the blog of unknown providence to me, and saw that although it had a pile of links inside, it had a wonderfully self referential nature in that one link that was quoted on there had probably been on here too.

So I was thinking about the validity of refernces that ran back to the same source.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 05:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

EU treaty: No would win in a popular vote? (4.00 / 5)

Torrygraph alert

According to Sarkozy: "France was just ahead of all the other countries in voting no. It would happen in all member states if they have a referendum. There is a cleavage between people and governments"

"A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no Treaty if we had a referendum in France, which would again be followed by a referendum in the UK."

Why is most everyone so coy about this?

by Fete des fous on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:16:34 PM EST

Coy about what? (4.00 / 6)

I'd love to see a EU referendum in the UK. In or out.
Polls in France run at 60-30 for the new treaty, right now, fwiw.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Coy about what? (4.00 / 3)

I don't know if Sarko is right but many polls gave the "yes" winning by similar large margins until a couple of month before the vote in May when "no" won with 54%

It disturbs me a lot to see so many progressives keep quiet about the lack of a popular vote to sanction what is essentially the same treaty that was defeated by the people in France. Especially since much of the no vote was then motivated by a willingness to prevent the enshrining of neo-liberal ideology and the ongoing economic dogma. Issues that seem to be even more critical in France today.

by Fete des fous on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again (4.00 / 3)

Almost half (25 out of 55) the non vote was the "normal" sovereignist non of the right. A lot of the non was just France being fedup with a hopeless president.

And, again, voting non did more to enshrine neo-liberal ideology and the ongoing economic dogma as it killed progress at the political and symbolic level and provided an easy triumph for the English euroskeptics' interpretations of Europe. As long as Europe is a lower political legitimacy technocratic machine, it will crank out the easy technocratic stuff. Free trade is easier to achieve than policy coordination.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 05:07:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again (4.00 / 4)

Not having a referendum certainly destroys whatever political legitimacy the EU could have hoped to achieve with an approval of the treaty. Which is probably part of the reason not to have referenda all over Europe.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 05:54:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

At this stage (4.00 / 2)

the euroskeptics win either way: they can either claim that the EU is still not democratic (no referendum), or that it is not supported (if there were a referendum in each country and, as likely, any individual one lost).

That was the logic of the Constitution: make it a symbolic step in order to make it possible to gain the support of the population on something momentous and decisive - it would have been a serious change of political dimension for the EU. And it was not significantly linked to the content of the Treaty (the proof that the content is irrelevant is that the new treaty has the same content, but is understood by all to be a non-event, a tidying up exercise).

Now you have a minor tweaking of institutional rules that have little importance beyond those that live in that world.

It's ironic that it's the French that killed the possibility of a political, democratic Europe - the very thing they wanted. Ironic and so depressing.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 03:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again (4.00 / 2)

To me it sounds like self-fulfilling prophecy. If we don't mobilize progressives voters on a clear alternative to the neo-liberal model, we probably won't gain control of institutions through voting and we'll only be left with institutional dynamics to improve policy.

The french left didn't have to be divided on the constitutional vote and during the presidentials. The dynamics in France and Europe could have been very different.

by Fete des fous on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 03:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Coy about what? (none / 1)

Yes, I´d love to see a referendum on membership What you cannot have is a referendum on a reform treaty which will be deliberately misconstrued by interested parties (apparently including yourself here) as a referendum on membership.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 06:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Membership (none / 1)

It was a referendum on membership of a political EU, explicitly. If the UK voted against it, it would have triggered a movement for a political EU without them, something which is easily conceivable (and if they voted yes, it would have legitimized the EU as political). With France voting against, it just kills EU as a political unit, because that cannot happen without France.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 03:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 10)

I'm very happy to have returned to France today after three weeks in the U.S.- transit strike and all. In fact, I had to come to Paris because of the strike; I'll stay here for a day or two until my wife has time to fetch me. So I'll say it myself; "welcome home LEP."

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:42:36 PM EST

Welcome home! Hope you had a good trip, and manage to enjoy your couple of days in Paris too...

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Welcome back ! There are some buses, but they are overfilling quickly...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:50:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey LEP, welcome home, the 18th hasn't been the same. How about some impressions of your time in mordor?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 01:55:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Welcome home, LEP!!! :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Watch out, Ladies (4.00 / 3)

LEP is back in town! (;

Welcome home, LEP!!! :-)
-- Fran. (and metavision)

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Woman convicted of kissing painting

AVIGNON, France - A woman who left a lipstick kiss on an all-white painting by the American artist Cy Twombly was convicted Friday of "voluntarily damaging a work of art" and ordered to do 100 hours of community service.
The court in Avignon, southern France, also ordered Rindy Sam, a 30-year-old artist of Cambodian origin who lives in France, to pay damages. She must hand over $1,465 to the painting's owner, $730 to the Avignon gallery that showed it and $1.50 to the painter.
The owner, Yvon Lambert, had asked for more than $2.9 million in damages, which included the value of the painting and the $47,000 restoration cost.
During the trial, Sam argued that she had committed an "act of love" -- not vandalism. "I didn't think," she said last month. "When I kissed it, I thought the artist would have understood."

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:04:16 PM EST

Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 1)

$1.50 to the painter! That'll teach her to kiss up to the commercial side.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a nicely ambiguous ruling. The painting probably won't be worth much after restoration, so the owner loses out on $3 million or so.

$1.50 to the painter is entertaining too.

I'm not inclined to be sympathetic. I think the reworking added something quite special to the original:

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree. It does add something special.

Here's a question: If she had kissed an accurate copy, indistinguishable from the original, is she the artist, the co-artist, or what?

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 05:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 1)

"When I kissed it, I thought the artist would have understood."

Little doubt Twombly would have considered himself honored!

by Loefing on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Canadian Press: De Palma defends 'Redacted' as controversy swirls around Iraq war film

TORONTO - Veteran filmmaker Brian De Palma has been here before - mired in controversy and criticism before one of his movies even hits theatres - but his latest release, "Redacted," could go down as the most contentious of his career, thanks to Bill O'Reilly.
The outspoken Fox news anchor attacked the film this week, calling for Americans to protest outside theatres where it is showing.
"Redacted" opens Friday in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal and select cities across the United States.
The film not only skewers the U.S. government for its involvement in Iraq but also comments on the instantaneous information culture created by the YouTube and blogger generation.
It has already faced plenty of jabs from online pundits who accuse De Palma of creating a propaganda piece.
"All this criticism and attack comes because that's what's politically correct at the time," De Palma said in an interview at the Toronto International Film Festival, where the film screened in September.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:12:26 PM EST

Bring on the Pol: John Edwards to Picket

From Nikki Finke's blog, Deadline Hollywood Daily in the LA Weekly. Since she didn't bother herself with paragraphs, I'm just going to consider the whole post one para. under fair use guidelines.

The WGA just announced that Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards will join striking writers on the picket line Friday. "Following his public statement of solidarity with the Writers Guild of America last week, former U.S. Senator John Edwards will ... support the WGA in its ongoing fight to secure a fair and reasonable deal." He will walk the line at 2 PM at NBC Entertainment, 3000 W. Alameda Avenue in Burbank at the NBC sign on the corner. This absolutely one-ups all previous political activity on the line where Barack Obama's LA staff and volunteers joined the strikers. All three Democratic frontrunners have expressed support for the striking writers, but Edwards has had the least amount of Hollywood support financially or celebrity/mogul-wise. Obama was first to make a pro-WGA declaration. I've already reported that the Hollywood/Big Media moguls were pissed as hell that Obama got out in front of the other Democratic presidential candidates and issued what they considered "a totally knee-jerk response" taking the writers' side. And they let him know it, too. (Clearly the CEOs were naive enough to think that just because they've been hosting political fundraisers and giving donations to him that gives them any clout.)

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:13:56 PM EST

Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 1)

Some writer made a brilliant video of the moguls saying on camera the opposite of what they've been saying to the union. Why can't i remember where is saw it? Back to Rehab, randy and Amy.

btw, my girlfriend thinks it's kuhl that i take my notes and make my lists on a yellow pad which reads:

"Somebody Wrote That"
Writers Guild of America

OK, beige.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Justice Dept. Conducting Criminal Probe of Baghdad Embassy Contracts - washingtonpost.com

The Justice Department is conducting a criminal probe into the awarding of the contract and related subcontracts in the troubled construction of the massive $736 million U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, according to sources and congressional testimony this week.
The probe came to light Wednesday during a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing into the actions of State Department Inspector General Howard J. Krongard. Though lawmakers appeared careful not to mention names of people under investigation, Krongard mentioned two people during his testimony, both of whom are key figures in the building of the embassy, as he defended his practice of meeting with people under investigation.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 02:52:11 PM EST

I went to see The Kingdom today.

Hollywood movie playing in Saudi Arabia, what would one expect? Good American fighting with Noble Savage sidekick against Evil Terrist savages? Or a Democrat-inspred version, with Evil US Government People plotting with the oil monarchs? However, I saw that Michael Mann co-wrote the script, that must mean something.

And I was impressed. While one shouldn't watch it to learn of the real complexities of Saudi Arabia, there were more than two faces shown. I also guess the stormy present could pinpoint a lot of details not looking like the real Saudi Arabia (the film crew didn't get closer than Abu Dhabi), but local detail was not what gripped me.

It seemed to me that the main character is not Jamie Foxx's FBI agent, but a Saudi policeman who gets the sh*t from all parties. While at first it seems we'll just follow an FBI team into the Kingdom, once there we get to see them from Faris's viewpoint. It's very interesting for a Mann-inspired project to see the exchange of some top-notch pros with a clueless local cop -- while the viewer knows more, and is led to see them acting as Ugly Americans.

Of course, later on there is friendship, hunting down the terrists, and we get a nice (or not so nice) symbolic moral of the story at the end. But that tight-lipped Saudi policeman was very well-done.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:16:11 PM EST

Very interesting, thanks for the review. I haven't seen the film, but am both quite curious about it, and fairly skeptical. I have to admit that my expectations were something like what you describe in your second paragraph, so it's good to hear that it doesn't quite fit into the expected pattern.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't want to raise your expectations bacxk too high, either. There were plenty of stupid or evil Ayrabs in the film.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Homes in Israeli settlements for sale at London expo | Israel and the Middle East | Guardian Unlimited

Israeli companies are using UK property shows to sell housing in illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank, Guardian Unlimited can reveal.
At the Israel Property Exhibition at Brent town hall, North London last Sunday, one company, Anglo-Saxon Real Estate, was offering for sale properties in Maale Adumim and Maccabim. Both West Bank settlements lie on the Palestinian side of the so-called green line, the pre-1967 boundary and often cited as the border between Israel and a future Palestinian state.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:24:54 PM EST

The British are clueless enough to buy contested property in Northern Cyprus, so this is par for the course.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 at 06:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Norway Post : Trace the fish by mobile phone

The cooperative food chain Coop is currently testing out a system by which the customers may use their mobile phone to trace the fish from the sea to to the store, reading a bar code on the outside packing.
By scanning the bar code, a signal is sent to a data base, which in turn sends back the information on where the fish was produced, when it was packaged and the expiry date.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:27:52 PM EST

The Democratic Party nominees (4.00 / 8)

agree that as soon as we got George Bush outta there the good old USA will be back in the business of leading the world again. Soon you will again have a good touchstone for right conduct and proper thinking, your imaginations lit, your fears soothed, surcease from your sorrows. So hang in there, Daddy is coming home.

I had to laugh. Here we are broke, reviled, deluded and all we gotta do is get rid of the symptom and all will be well.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 03:36:02 PM EST

Army Desertion Rate Soaring, Number Of U.S. Army Deserters Up 80% Since Iraq War Started; Highest Rate Since 1980 - CBS News

Soldiers strained by six years at war are deserting their posts at the highest rate since 1980, with the number of Army deserters this year showing an 80 percent increase since the United States invaded Iraq in 2003.
According to the Army, about nine in every 1,000 soldiers deserted in fiscal year 2007, which ended Sept. 30, compared to nearly seven per 1,000 a year earlier. Overall, 4,698 soldiers deserted this year, compared to 3,301 last year.

Nice, we have already the "Search and Avoid" thing and now this.......good!

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:34:20 PM EST

Feed Article | Business |

GENEVA/BRUSSELS, Nov 16 (Reuters) - Norway and the European Union both claimed victory on Friday when the World Trade Organisation (WTO) ruled on a dispute over the EU's anti-dumping measures on imports of Norwegian salmon. Norway said the WTO's ruling showed the EU made a litany of errors in the way it handled the case and its minimum import prices for Norwegian salmon should be scrapped. "It is our view that the WTO panel has ruled in favour of Norway," Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere told reporters in Brussels. "The scope and the number of infractions is such that the EU has no choice but to withdraw the measures." The European Commission said the WTO panel's decision not to order the withdrawal of the measures vindicated its position.
(...)
"Looking at the list of inconsistencies, this is bad for the EU," said a trade lawyer in Brussels who asked not to be named. "They should settle it quietly with Norway."
The EU imposed minimum prices in 2006 after years of wrangling. The measures had been sought by fish farmers in Ireland and Scotland who alleged bigger rivals in Norway were selling fish at below their real value in the Norwegian market.
(...)

I have been following this utterly stupid dispute for years...the money and energy wasted, on both sides!

For what, I wonder...

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 04:34:56 PM EST

Re: A bit fishy... (none / 1)

The measures had been sought by fish farmers in Ireland and Scotland who alleged bigger rivals in Norway were selling fish at below their real value in the Norwegian market

And just to make sure that they were on both sides, the Norwegians have been quietly hoovering up the Scottish salmon farmers for years....

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 07:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Been fighting off the flu since Wednesday morning, seems like it's starting to go away. Last time I know I had it for sure was when I was just 12...that episode was far worse.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Nov 16th, 2007 at 05:59:34 PM EST