European Tribune - Thursday Open Thread

Thank you, Fran. That´s motivating me to do some soft stretches.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 05:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

finally (4.00 / 7)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:10:09 PM EST

Re: finally (none / 1)

"tip-tap, tip-tap, tippy tippy tip-tap - tip - tip - tap"

Chanson de Noel Finlandaise.

I think I'll just steal this clip to be my Yuletide video this year....I just haven't come up yet with anything that would inspire me to spend several hours shooting and editing. Buying traditional cards and addressing them is suddenly appealing.

But I suppose something will come up as the deadline approaches.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:22:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm going to relax in the arms of Mother Nature tonight. I spent the whole day acting a noirish movie sequence, as a kind of cross between Sidney Greenstreet and a pre-deep-fried Mar bar version of Orson Welles. The studio was completely black with only a severely flagged inky-dink beaming into my face. I feel as if I've been floating in a void, with strange voices mumbling round the edge of the darkness. Only the occasional intrusions of the clapper boy or make-up girl connected me to reality.

I hate make-up - I don't know how you ladies can stand it.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:15:47 PM EST

Sven Triloqvist:

I hate make-up - I don't know how you ladies can stand it.

the alternative, a burka, is worse..

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, I don't know - no make-up at all is rather beautiful.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree.

I think that nothing is uglier than a woman who trys to prissy up too much with makeup.

Maybe it's just me.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nope, not just you.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

there is a real problem that, the women who can wear most makeup well, are the young kids who need least.

elder women are easily tempted to over make up cos, well, frankly we need it. It requires discipline and skill to get it right. I have neither and generally have abandoned the effort. No makeup is easier, even if I'd love to splash the slap.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Women don't wear makeup for men.

Also, you may not be aware that your comment comes across as precisely the kind of unenlightened sentiment you imagine you are above. As a woman, I hope men find me physically attractive, but if I'm to be judged as "ugly", I want it to be for something other than my face.

There are many ugly people in the world, men and women, and the fact rarely ... no ... never has anything to do with their physical appearance.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also, you may not be aware that your comment comes across as precisely the kind of unenlightened sentiment you imagine you are above. As a woman, I hope men find me physically attractive, but if I'm to be judged as "ugly", I want it to be for something other than my face.

That's the point. It is something other than your face. It's about being pretentious and feeling the need to put on large amounts of makeup like that changes anything about who you are. The makeup isn't the problem, its why women go about putting on the makeup that's the problem. In your case this clearly isn't a problem.

You said:

Women don't wear makeup for men.

The problem is that men are constantly told that women wear makeup and uncomfortable shoes in order to make an impression on men, and guilted for it.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:32:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Women don't wear makeup for men.

Could that be why I dislike it? :-)

Not so simple. Just as I dislike the games men play to gain acceptance and status (and that are directed towards other men).

Nothing uglier than... isn't really my feeling, though. I took it MfM's point was the contrast with the supposed beautifying effect.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 04:28:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 6)

Speaking for myself (I'm hardly qualified to speak for an entire race, gender, any group, really), I wore make-up for men, back in the day. When I attended women-only events, it was always an opportunity not to bother with the make-up. And even in most mixed-gender situations, I used very little. But it was always the women who picked on me for not wearing it.

Since I hit my 30's, decades ago, and especially since it's so common for women to go without makeup in Austin, it's a really rare event now, mostly having to do with making eyebrows appear on my face. My husband's into inner beauty, but married me anyway (he's European though, so maybe that's why.)

My daughter's a masseuse who's urging me to do yoga. I'll get there. Thanks to Fran for the video.

Karen

Thence comes our true nobility by grace, It was not willed us with our rank and place. Chaucer

by Wife of Bath (priceluda at grandecom dot net) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 10:38:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You seem to have a very wise daughter - I would listen to her. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 at 12:54:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And you also seem to have a smart husband!!!! :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 at 01:04:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I cannot even leave the house w/out lipstick! I've never thought of make-up as tedious, social oppression, or a mask. If others do, they should not wear it. I, however, enjoy the ritual.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Speaking of which I just installed a new extendably cantivered shaving mirror that can be positioned almost anywhere.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh dear.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know - if I flip the mirror it makes me look like Barry Manilow

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:22:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Does it make you write songs that make the whole world gag?

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 07:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now there (4.00 / 2)

is a name I rather hope will not be recurrent on ET.

by Nomad on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 at 02:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've worn makeup exactly twice in my life. Once for the highschool dance, once for my wedding. I just can't be bothered.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tztmail at gmail dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 04:05:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nah. None of the above. You don't have to have some feeling of being a victim to avoid makeup, it can be a simple preference. You wouldn't accuse someone who doesn't like to wear polyester of being motivated by tedium, oppression or such, right?

I appreciate makeup on others, even makeup that goes to extremes, like the goths with their spikey green and black hair and white foundation. Personal freedom of expression, including with one's hair and face, is essential and enjoyable.

When we lived in the French Quarter, my German mother-in-law visited. I asked her what impressed her most on her first trip to the USA and she said "the black women's hairstyles."

Karen in Austin

Thence comes our true nobility by grace, It was not willed us with our rank and place. Chaucer

by Wife of Bath (priceluda at grandecom dot net) on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 at 09:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Film noir? I trust you were wearing a trench coat, a fedora, and speaking the dialog with eyes narrowed from the smoke rising from your unfiltered cigarette dangling loosely from the corner of your mouth.

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 07:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

TBG's copyright (4.00 / 4)

We want TBG's copyright diary, we want TBG's copyright diary, we want TBG's copyright diary, we want TBG's copyright diary, we want TBG's copyright diary, we want TBG's copyright diary,

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:27:50 PM EST

Re: TBG's copyright (4.00 / 4)

Yeah, me too.

It's about 75% done. Tomorrow is a no-free-time day so an ETA of Saturday looks likely.

(And I'm resisting the temptation to pretty it up with some custom video...)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: TBG's copyright (none / 1)

I can wait. It's going to be fun - a reet ol' tussle. Don't rip me to shreds with your honed mots, though.... ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:24:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yoga... Yes, that is exactly what I plan to do tonight. (Grey's Anatomy is a rerun...)

I feel gross. It's become perfectly cold here (real honest to goodness makes you contemplate your own mortality Chicago cold); I died my hair but can't wash it yet; and they've reglazed my bathtub, but left instructions that it should be given 48 hours to dry, meaning no bathing for 48 hours...

That nasty person, Henry Hyde, has died.

Here are some United Russia ads. Pros: Not at all deeply, personally vicious and negative like in a real democracy. Cons: They look like some film student was asked to do an exercise in Soviet propaganda, applying it to contemporary Russia.

And a funny bit from Sean's Russia Blog:

SPS is now complaining that the Kremlin has broken its promise to give SPS seats if they refrained from criticizing Putin. "At first, Kremlin spin doctors said the party would be allowed into the Duma if it refrained from criticism," an unnamed SPS deputy told the Moscow Times. "But then they changed their minds and decided not to keep their promise. The party is angry, and now the only chance it has to get into the parliament is to gather the protest vote." The Communists and Yabloko both claim to have made similar deals with the Kremlin. What!? And now were are expected to feel sorry for them? If anything their whining about broken political promises should be a signal to their supporters that they are nothing but slimy political opportunists. All's fair in love, war, and politics, boys. What a bunch of losers.

SPS are the "democratic" party...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:42:21 PM EST

How cold? It was -5°C here this morning, and likely next morning too: right now -2°C in the window.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:58:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When I woke up this morning it was 18° F (-7.7° C) with a windchill of 4° F (-15.5° C). And it's supposed to get colder next week.

Still no snow though, which is bizarre.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

poemless:

I died my hair

Now that's cold.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why is that "cold?" It's nothing drastic...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:09:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Umm, it's a joke on the verb "to die" as opposed to "to dye". Dunno if it's different in the US. You have some interesting spellings over there. Tomayto/Tomahto

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:25:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, no. Just lack the ability to type and spell at the same time. hahaha... Died...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Late shift work is linked to cancer

you murdered your hair.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:25:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Neoliberalism causes cancer (4.00 / 3)

Hmmm..... apparently "flex-time" and all the other demands by employers that workers shift their schedules to meet the companies needs might be leading to major increases in the incidence of cancer.

LONDON (AP) -- It was once scientific heresy to suggest that smoking contributed to lung cancer. Now, another idea initially dismissed as nutty is gaining acceptance: the graveyard shift might increase your cancer risk.
Next month, the International Agency for Research on Cancer, the cancer arm of the World Health Organization, will classify shift work as a "probable" carcinogen.
That will put shift work in the same category as cancer-causing agents like anabolic steroids, ultraviolet radiation, and diesel engine exhaust.
If the shift work theory proves correct, millions of people worldwide could be affected. Experts estimate that nearly 20 percent of the working population in developed countries work night shifts.

Now consider this in light of the effort to keep stores open 24 hours a day, and to switch workers between shifts as though they were machines.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:52:00 PM EST

Re: Neoliberalism causes cancer (4.00 / 3)

I just realized that this sort of sinks Sarkozy's idea that the rail workers are "privileged" as well. After all, the mere fact that they're working odd shifts increases their risks of cancer, let alone the physical impact of the work itself.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Neoliberalism causes cancer (none / 1)

Interesting, but useless without an indication of how much it increases your cancer risk.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I saw two UFOs (4.00 / 4)

Today at 17:45 CET, walking my dog, I saw two bright stars that were somehow unfamiliar: both as bright as Sirius, and less than two Moon diameters apart. Standing steady, I saw that they are slowly moving in parallel towards the Southeast, and indeed shortly after, one after the other entered Earth's shadow.

What's this, I missed a Space Shuttle visit to the International Space Station in the news? Checked the ISS page - nah. Then checked bright satellites using CalSky.com, but nothing there -- though, curiously, closest in time was a parallel flight of Iridium satellites (but 12 minutes early and in the wrong part of the sky). There was no recent launch, either.

So, what's this? Space derbis, spy satellite?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:54:33 PM EST

Aliens? :-D

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 12:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw two UFOs (4.00 / 2)

:-)

But seriously: would I be an alien bent on observing Earth but not wanting to be noticed, I wouldn't just make my ship radar-invisible but paint it dark.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw two UFOs (4.00 / 4)

calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes) always said that the true sign of intelligent life in the universe is that none of it has ever tried to contact us.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Whenever I see such things, I assume it's aliens coming to take my cat back to her original planet. You are aware that all cats are here from outerspace to spy on us, aren't you? ;)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw two UFOs (none / 1)

Cats? Not mice? 42?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:01:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw two UFOs (4.00 / 2)

Thank you, Slarti Bartfast

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've come to the realization that there are cat people, and then there are dog people.

Cat people take the idea that their cat may have come from another planet seriously, because it's possible they did as well.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:10:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw two UFOs (none / 1)

Considering some of the things that y'all do on this planet, I am going to take that as a compliment...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:13:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then there are dog people.

Dog people let their dogs lick their face after they've just finished licking their nether regions.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw two UFOs (4.00 / 4)

Just passing the happiness on. As Bill Hicks once said, if guys could lick their own balls like dogs could, women would own the public spaces.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I saw two UFOs (4.00 / 2)

You've gotten me in trouble, Helen.

I'm in the computer lab at school, and that made me laugh.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is 4 u, poemless (4.00 / 3)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's why I refuse to keep a baseball bat in the house. ;)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gets me everytime (none / 1)

That video enthralls me and puts this stupid grin on my face...

I may need a video camera to prove that Sunday jumps on my bladder every morning, before I wake up.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is 4 u, poemless (4.00 / 2)

Close to 2.5 million views of that animation, to date, presumably humans but no doubt some cats, too ; )

by Loefing on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They can upload, but not download.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's to hoping you don't have a baseball bat.

by Loefing on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I should have written 'we can upload, but we can't download'

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:58:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Letting go? (4.00 / 9)

The only thing I want to let go is my consciousness.

Exhaustion is setting in.

Although I have done it before, I still find it somewhat unsettling to zoom down over 800 metres into the Earth's crust and be able to stroll around. Or see a train amble by. Or let a ginormous scoop truck blast my ear drums.

Today at ~1800 meters underground, in the new development. Ventilation is working, obviously, but the humidity and heat are rather challenging. We were walking (and dripping) for only three hours and I already nodded off when we waited for the lift to come pick us up and bring us to the blessed surface. Am feeling all my muscles now.

I think I gave up caving mostly because every time after a long trip in a cave, when we'd near the entrance I'd be overjoyed to breathe in fresh air and feel the wind touch my face. I said to myself: if that's the one thing that makes you the most happy, what are you doing underground?

And I need to learn Fanagalo.

Structurally, the mine is a headache. Seen some pretty weird stuff that, if my memory serves me right, does not properly appear in the literature. Could well be something. I'm cautiously optimistic, and confused as ever.

That's it for me for tonight. Nomad, over and out.

by Nomad on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:05:41 PM EST

Re: Letting go? (none / 1)

must be those thermodynamically unstable secondary phases.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 07:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Between a rock and hard place (4.00 / 5)

Got the quote for fitting out my flat to basic W european standard. And it's basically a rip-off. Some of the charges he's put in I'd expect from a British bloke. Nearly 400 euros for paint in a flat for instance.

not all of the charges are rip-offs, but too many are to make me want to accept. Yet, I leave in a couple of days; if I don't accept this, I can't talk to another guy for 10 weeks. the total charge is just shy of 10,000 euros. I think the total should be closer to 6000. Even my translator told me after she was embarrassed by the prices.

the problems are that
i) this guy seems well connected at the apartment building. If I get in another contractor, I could have "difficulties".

ii) I think the delay of 10 weeks will also be problematic, time being money in this transaction. So do I accept this 3000 euro overcharge as the fee for doing business at 2500 km distance and swallow it on the basis that I can pass the extra on later ? Or do I stand on the principle that I won't be cheated and face probable retribution later ?

And that column middle command is up again. nuisance

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:22:05 PM EST

Re: Between a rock and hard place (none / 0)

i) this guy seems well connected at the apartment building. If I get in another contractor, I could have "difficulties".

But if you don't, you could maybe have some connections down the line who might be able to "solve" any future "problems" you have in town? LOL.

I've heard so many stories like this. You must have seen this coming. Seems that in general, there is no choice but to cave...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Between a rock and hard place (4.00 / 3)

You should bargain, play incredulous and quote what you think are market prices, and tell him to not think of you as a stupid but rich Westerner who can be ripped off.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Between a rock and hard place (none / 1)

...but he may also consider it not a ripoff but a wealth tax...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Between a rock and hard place (none / 1)

a stupid but rich Westerner who can be ripped off.

...who has no clue about prices and thus can be ripped off.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Between a rock and hard place (4.00 / 4)

Maybe you should take this as a SOP for the country.

Contractor comes in overbid, you make a counter offer, etc.

Maybe you come back with an offer at 7500 euros, and see if you can negotiate the price.

I think that the UK like the US is country where we're used to taking fixed prices instead of haggling. The key thin with haggling being to make a counter offer that's not insulting. Just my thoughts though.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Between a rock and good luck (4.00 / 2)

Oh my! If it were Spain, I´d snark him out the window even if I agreed. Then I would take him for a beer and give him a good old Spanish ranting in public. I´d get a lot of ´yes, maam´ for that price difference...

Staged payments,
Retainage
Clean windows and
A free lunch

Even then, in Spain, I would have to accept the fact that work would not begin until I got back!

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This turned into a Kind of Blue night. It's a CD I have to listen to on a regular basis...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:40:21 PM EST

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 5)

New Rule: If you slow down as you approach a zebra crossing, let the pedestrians cross the road! Don't bloody re-accelerate as one Nordic pedestrian misinterprets the initial deceleration as the kindness of a stranger, as opposed to the act of an inconsiderate asshole who should pay more attention to the road instead of his fucking cellphone. And then he has the bloody audacity to get all pissed off and start honking like it's New Year's eve as if it's my fault he never learned to drive properly!

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 01:57:18 PM EST

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 5)

Where did that happen?

After my experiences in rural France and Frankfurt this summer, I started to ignore the basic road traffic rule for pedestrians in Hungary (wait until you don't see any cars in both directions and then cross the zebra...), step down whether cars slow down or not, and start to walk while staring right in the eyes of the driver of the first car.

I produced a number of surprised looks and strong brakings after an incredulous first two seconds. But surprisingly, I have never been honked yet.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The best part BTW is the look of other pedestrians, staring at me from beside the road.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

step down whether cars slow down or not, and start to walk while staring right in the eyes of the driver of the first car.

I thought that was how you're supposed to cross zebras. I've always done that, since I was knee high. Treat traffic with contempt, always.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That´s a good attitude, but I don´t think I can achieve the command of traffic that you have.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yep! It works, doesn't it? I call it the ´I´ll-do-flamenco-on-your-hood´ look, even if I am ready to run anyway.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So why (none / 1)

do people tease me when I say I do this?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 04:36:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So why (4.00 / 2)

I think it may be the way you, well, "accidentally" assault the cars while you're at it. ;)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 04:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So why (4.00 / 3)

It's the bit where you pick up the car and start beating it off the ones in the queue behind it that amuses us...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 04:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent. I think it is better not to look at the car at all, though. It gives you a 'hapless pedestrian who did not notice me' quality.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 05:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In which case they honk and curse, unfortunately. If I look at them, they presumably suspect they overlooked something. (Butit will never come to them that what they overlooked is official traffic rules.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 05:21:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Screw that: you want to evoke the stories their mother told them of the Big Bad Jérôme Monster that would rend their car apart with his bare hands if they gave pedestrians any crap ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 05:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No no no (4.00 / 2)

Eye contact. First Monderman rule. Then, drive the point home that driving a car does not make anyone the next best thing since sliced bread on this planet.

Unfortunately, if I'd follow my own approach in SA, I would've been six feet under.

by Nomad on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 at 02:58:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure, but that wouldn't have done me no good^[1] since the douche wasn't paying any attention whatever to anything beyond his oh-so-important phone call. I can only assume it was a very special kind of cell phone that temporarily disables your optical nerve. Either that, or I'm sticking with my original theory: the guy is a giant asshole^[2].

^[1]Yeah, a double negative!
^[2]I will now return to my regular sentence-to-expletive ratio.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 at 05:10:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Did this happen in Finland?...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 at 06:09:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yup. Obviously I expect walking outside to turn into a real-life simulation of Frogger when travelling in more populous areas...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 at 07:08:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

new computer toys (none / 0)

Got one of these in the mail last night. $350 for a very portable laptop was impossible to say no to. I tend to not carry my thinkpad around with me because it's too heavy to do much walking with. I think this thing was inspired by the "$100 laptop" initiative as it has similar specs and has a kid-friendly linux distribution installed by default. I threw ubuntu on it last night and have it mostly working.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:24:35 PM EST

According to Sleepy Sleepers (4.00 / 2)

There are only 2 ways to practice sex. The right way and the wrong way.

This band was later turned in the Leningrad Cowboys by Aki Kaurismäki.

This, in turn - wait for it, Poemless - lead to their appearance with the Red Army choir in a lacklustre version of 'Sweet Home Alabama'.

The vagaries of Finnish popular music never cease to amaze me...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:27:56 PM EST

Heh. You think this is news to me? I love love love those nutty Leningrad Cowboys. Hey, check this classic footage out:

Kalinka!

LOVE IT.

BTW, it gets weirder:

From wiki:

In 2003, Roman Abramovich bought Chelsea FC. Since then, Kalinka has been associated with the London based Football Club and is often played before or after important matches, including the Champions League clashes with FC Barcelona and the Carling Cup final.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

less weird BTW: this concert took place in Helsinki's Senate Square where key scenes of Warren Beatty's 1981 'Reds' were shot.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 02:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Holy cow, it's just too meta for words...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not to mention Apted's 'Gorky Park'. A little perk of being the only Russian built historic downtown that was open to Hollywood film crews for quite a period.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: According to Sleepy Sleepers (4.00 / 2)

(this conversation may simply never end)...

Gorky Park, the movie. Never saw it. I should put it on my Netflix list. But I want to read it first. I've just become addicted to the Arkady Renko detective stories... In fact, just last night I was reading one, and ... listening to ... Kind of Blue.

Gorky Park, the park. My first night in Moscow, there were fireworks being shot off from Gorky Park, which I was living directly across from. Very cool. By day, however, I was pretty unimpressed. I guess it has all of these connotations for westerners... and it's just a park, you know, and at that time was rather dilapidated as well...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: According to Sleepy Sleepers (4.00 / 3)

I've just become addicted to the Arkady Renko detective stories...

another big fan. Gorky park is definitely the best so far, but "Wolves Eat Dogs" will haunt you in a way like no other book. It imprints you, the mark may never leave.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:50:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: According to Sleepy Sleepers (4.00 / 2)

The thing is I just finished the last one, Stalin's Ghost, and I love that -because of my freakish obsession with Russian politics- I know what all of the allusions are to. Also the descriptions of Moscow make me homesick ...

Can't wait to read them all!

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok, I'm taking home Gorky Park tonight. I'm going to read the rest of them in proper order.

Uhm, this is not terribly related, but Ekho Moskvy plays some great jazz at this hour...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 06:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Parks in cities. Very important. Helsinki is rather blessed in that regard.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:51:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

From memory - well the ones I have read - were Renko in Gorky Park, Polar Star, Red Square and the current gem, Wolves Eat Dogs.

Are there others?

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 08:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was vaguely aware of them, but I am just laughing my head off.

Smoke on the water

fire in the sky

by PeWi on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 06:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Working on my beer-culture. (4.00 / 5)

Taybeh, is a small mostly christian Palestinian town near Rammalah.

There is a brewery since 1993. Long story short: because of Israêli boycot(water-supply, supplies blocked...) production has decreased 80%, people unimployed, almost an end to bussiness.

Some NGO's here put up a structure to produce under licence the Taybeh beer in Belgium by a small familial brewery(Strubbe) and commercialise it.

Profits will be shared between Palestinians and the NGO's who will use their part to finance (existing)healthcare activities in Palestina.

It will be available in some places in Brussels, but I'm very curious how a Palestinian beer, brewed in Belgium will taste.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:30:36 PM EST

Re: Working on my beer-culture. (none / 1)

Dang, that's something to look out for. It took me a few weeks weeks to find Sven's prize winning Finnish Imperial Stout: Saw a bottle in Madrid, found one on sale in London a week later. (stunning). and the one that came second was damn fine too.

that said, I confess I ain't hopeful. things like this are like egyptian wine. we admire they made the effort, but ....

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Working on my beer-culture. (none / 1)

Mind you the best wine I ever tasted was made in Tehran. The grapes and conditions there are just fab. Illegal, of course, but some of the best of it came from a chateau that looked remarkably like the filtration and pump room of the typical diplomat's swimming pool.

I think you should try the Palestinian beer first - you never know.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 03:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Working on my beer-culture. (4.00 / 2)

I think a good home vintner will make the best wine, cos they want to drink it. I've had some fab wine from down in sandanski market, whilst the commercial stuff is pretty damn ugly drinking.

But I confess that the further one gets from traditional beer countries, the worse my expectations. Palestine rates somewhere near mexico or spain in my mind. If it isn't actually repellent that will be a plus.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 at 04:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Belated happy bday to ceebs... it was the 29th?? But it was November anyway so, hope you had a good one.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Dec 2nd, 2007 at 05:20:26 PM EST

Unfortunately I spent half the evening laying with my head under pillows with a raging headache. It was like having the hangover without the birthday drinking.

yes it was the 29th, I'll wave as I go past in the train tomorrow. ;-)

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Dec 2nd, 2007 at 05:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]