European Tribune

Bootstrapping the ET think tank

by Migeru
Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 08:17:25 AM EST

Over the months there has been a lot of suggestive talk about taking ET to the next level, whatever that may be. For lack of a better term, one could call this next level "the ET Think Tank". I personally don't like the label Think Tank because I associate it too strongly to intellectual whoring, but for instance I'd like to be able to devote time to macroeconomic/ecological systems research without having to worry that my savings will run out and then what? You can call that kind of work Think-Tanking but I prefer to think about an ET Research Unit. There has also been talk of coordinating cooperative work better, of having a dedicated LTE editor, things like that. The problem is that I cannot see these things being done on people's free time. It's a qualitative step away (up, down, forward, back or sideways, I don't know) from blogging. There has also been talk of "meta-consulting".


So this got me thinking about the business model and while I haven't reached any definite conclusions, I think the Research University model is instructive. There, the professors want to do research and the universities want the status that comes with having prestigious researchers among the faculty. But research doesn't pay the bills. The solution is that researchers spend (say) half their time raising money for the university [teaching fee-paying students, writing grants] and the rest of their time doing what they really want to do, which is research (or playing the fiddle: once you get tenure you don't really have to be all that productive as long as you help raise revenue by teaching your classes).

So maybe the ET Think Tank should be run on a similar basis: half-time "gainful" activity and half-time "vocational" activity. What could be the "gainful" part?

I could say "don't ask me, I couldn't sell anything, I don't know how to identify demand for services, get yourself a marketing person (like Sven?)". But even if you can identify demand you still have to figure out how (whether) you're going to meet it. Who's going to be doing the work and what work can they do?

Initially there's going to be no revenue, so you have to work essentially for free, eating your seed grain if you may, while you set up something that will provide you with, if not steady but in bursts, at least sufficient income to keep yourself going. The problem is most of us face huge opportunity costs for doing that kind of thing. What is the opportunity cost of, say, Jérôme going 3/4 time at work so he can devote 10 hours a week to developing the business side of the ET Think Tank?

In terms of opportunity cost there are three categories of people:

  • retired or unemployed (this includes me, but I don't know for how long) people: they face zero opportunity cost to working on the ET Think Tank.
  • self-employed people, or people working on an hourly or contract basis: they have the flexibility to shift their working time from their current activity to the ET Think Tank, but initially at an hourly opportunity cost, as long as the ET Think Tank revenue doesn't pick up sufficiently.
  • people on full-time employment: they generally face the opportunity cost of their whole income, or at least discrete chunks like going from full-time to 3/4 time which normally results in a more than proportional loss of income.

So I see therefore three stages in the bootstrapping of the ET Think Tank.

The first stage involves people who face no income opportunity cost for working on business development. If and when revenue starts being raised, we enter a second phase where self-employed people can be compensated for their opportunity cost. As the business grows it gets to the point where it begins to make sense to hire people "full time" (it being understood they retain "half time" to do their research/writing/activism/advocacy) and then people can actually quit their unfulfilling jobs and come to work for the ET Think Tank.

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Like Colman would say, lots of unsourced assumptions in there to be teased out.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 08:18:22 AM EST
There is a numerical fact that if 1000 people gave 10 minutes of their time, 6 days a week, there would be the equivalent of 25 people fully employed.

This is the power to be harnessed. It is a simple illustration - I'm not saying you can achieve anything in 10 minutes a day, although that was proved to work in the case of the post-Katrina data translation/collation effort to put people in touch with each other, with pets  and with possessions.

What we need are the tools that make it possible for people to work in this manner co-operatively, at any time, in any place. ET is virtually a magazine that is created in this way - the content creation is decentralized, and the content is self-edited by the surrounding commentary. It is a start.

I have been involved in many online projects. Some have been merely the circulation by email of documents, ideas, reflections, powerpoints etc. It works with a small team on largely text-based projects. (The ppts are usually extensions of documents).  Some projects have been a mix of video or tele conferencing and document exchange. The most interesting have used commercial software that is designed for co-operation and the sharing of almost any kind of digital files live. These projects have been leaderless or, rather, leaderfull. The agenda is always set by the group and is always visible as it evolves.

All these projects have been membership only. That is an aspect that needs to be discussed.


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 10:56:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a numerical fact that if 1000 people gave 10 minutes of their time, 6 days a week, there would be the equivalent of 25 people fully employed.
That is nonsense. The amount of useful work that can be performed by a single person in 10 minutes a day is very nearly zero. You're falling into the mythical man-month fallacy.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:01:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not nonsense, since I gave you a practical example. I could give you another one: the AA employs a lot of retired or housebound people to stand by to man emergency service calls when the full-time system is overloaded. The AA has installed an internet connected call station in their homes. They get paid to stand by. The actual work may be only a few minutes a day - if that.

 It is your archaic thinking that will not help to find a solution. We have to start thinking about what 'work' is in a entirely different way.

What IS a productive time period? 2 minutes? 10 minutes? 1 hour? 5 hours? What is there so very special about 8 hours?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If only we could all be as modern and forward looking as you.

I'd say an hour is a minimal slice for writing type work that you're doing day-in, day-out. Three  hours if you have to pick it up from two weeks or two months ago and spend and hour working out what the hell you were doing.

10 minutes might do for answering a service call, but that's a different matter.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:42:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And for something highly technical it may take eight hours to pick up from a couple of weeks ago.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:54:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course. But not everyone does stuff that is highly technical. All kinds of work is needed to run a society. All I am saying is that it is worth studying new methods that do not necessarily depend on lots of people being in the same place at the same time working for the same company.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 12:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have been involved in many online projects. Some have been merely the circulation by email of documents, ideas, reflections, powerpoints etc. It works with a small team on largely text-based projects. (The ppts are usually extensions of documents).  Some projects have been a mix of video or tele conferencing and document exchange. The most interesting have used commercial software that is designed for co-operation and the sharing of almost any kind of digital files live. These projects have been leaderless or, rather, leaderfull. The agenda is always set by the group and is always visible as it evolves.

All these projects have been membership only. That is an aspect that needs to be discussed.

I bet you most of the work was done by those who could work on it for 4 hours at a time, even if they tallied less total time than others.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:11:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not true. You don't know my business. Most of it is spent in short period connection with others on a variety of simultaneous projects at various stages of development.  The only time most of us spend continuous effort of say 4 hours is when we are working individually on our speciality contribution to the agenda.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
in the sense that there are some problems that an experienced person can solve in 10 minutes. But by-and-large I gotta go with Migeru's case.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 07:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that the chaos model of the wisdom of crowds deserves a chance. At least in the US we already have more institutes, study groups and the like then you can imagine.

Many seem to consist of nothing more than an office and a small dedicated staff. I know where many of the rightwing ones get their funding, but I'm not so sure of the leftist ones. There are also many astro-turf and front groups using the same model which makes it hard to separate the science from the propaganda.

The advantage of the blogosphere is that the maintenance costs are low and the audience both for input and output is potentially very large. I see our role as debating ideas and propagating those that are found most promising.

Now that many in academia and the media are starting to participate online it is thus possible to implant new ideas into their heads. I have seen several examples of this, where a "pundit" entered into a discussion and then gleaned some new perspective from the comments. This perspective then reappeared later on in the pundits later writings.

To use an agricultural analogy I think we should be breeding the seeds of new ideas and then casting them out. We let those with more influence nurture them and make them grow.

I've seen many of the white papers produced by present think tanks as just that - paper. Even the ones that get some notice in the media tend to fade away after a very short time. But getting some new ideas accepted means they keep getting repeated by the converts.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 10:31:34 AM EST
we love doing that... but I am not sure if Migeru meant that.. I think we are talkign to soemthing differnet because of the "the next level" meme...

I would say that LTE writers, media contact, or as you say, pundit contacts woudl reach a new level of sofistication in the framework that some people are proposing..

BUt I think MIgeru would be the best one to explain..

I personally thing that a small change  could do a lot for ht emeida contact world... if colman finihses what he has been talking about then we will probalby have more  to think about.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:00:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migueru

The next level you mention goes along the lines of Colman where small inputs will be needed to take  ET to a new level (basically in using the easier platform to debate and an easier platform to reach the mass media that Colman wants to develop).. or are you thinking in a more "high level"...?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:03:55 AM EST
I don't know what the next level is. I think it's like the elephant being described by the blind men, at this point. And you should ask Colman what he thinks his next level is, because I don't want to speak for him on that.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm shooting for fifth level - I get another hit dice and a third level spell every day then!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No matter what you call it, you're starting a economic entity.  As an economic entity it will require all the apparatus, functions, inputs, and outputs of a 'business.'  As a Start-Up economic entity, to be successful, it will need to 'Ack' - at a minimum - the various little hoops Start-Ups need to twirl.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:04:59 AM EST
You have mentioned that what you want to do is research natural language processing but in order to support it without taking money from the military industrial complex you buy, refurbish and sell houses. So you've set yourself up in the way I outline in the diary: a "gainful" activity undertaken "half time" so you can devote the other half to the "vocational" activity. I have mentioned the research university as a model, but there's also the "artist with a day job" model.

I am discounting the possibility of getting grants or and endowment, of course, but maybe I shouldn't.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the brain-storming period.  Don't discount these as sources of revenue.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 09:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you studying lanmguage processing.. and nobody has directed you to send ame an e-mail?????

If you are in the NLP business..mail is in order....

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:20:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have your email address.


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 08:38:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have both of yours.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 02:48:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can share it... :) at least mine...with him..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 06:24:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Done, now.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 06:34:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have quite a bit of free time as I intentionally keep my life pretty low key. Plus I put this in the "volunteering" category - money isn't expected, although I wouldn't turn it down if it was there.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 12:16:19 PM EST
I would say this, because it's the direction my self-employment is tending, but one of the things there is on ET that may have some potential is mining the extraordinary level of cross-cultural knowledge here.

No, I don't know how, but it just occurred to me as a different angle on "what makes ET special" as opposed to just AEI or Heritage style policy production, so I thought I'd throw it out there...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 12:19:57 PM EST
(Xeroxed lira, sounds like zero), I am good for $100 per month, IF:
  1. Migeru organizes this project;
  2. Members choose to concentrate on a few of the topics that are discussed on ET during any particular time frame;
  3. There is an end-product focus on the chosen topics.

From my standpoint topics have to be limited by funding, so that there are sufficient resources brought to the research, analysis, formulation, editing, and dissemination of cogent policy theses. My primary interest is in the use of the 'end-product' to move people and, therefore, history.

I'm not suggesting an isolated "intellectual", surrounded by books and perma-wired into the internet. Most of the research and analysis might well consist of the observations and facts supplied by the ET membership; but there will always be particular lines of inquiry, fact-checking, plus the drafting of reports and policy statements that require professional service.

In addition there is a need for full-time liaison work with existing research/policy entities, such as Energize America, PES, World Social Forum, and many others. Of course, there has to be prioritization in that aspect, too - maybe the current-topics focus would inform the current liaison work.

Is Migeru's suggestion elitist? Probably, but this is an elite blog in my opinion. There is plenty of need for leadership in this world. Why not tap into the education, experience, and skill of a group like this one? Even the polemics and rants on this blog are some of the best prose-poetry that I have read in years (hat-tips in particular to Melo and redstar from yesterday's postings).

The analytical pieces are first-rate, and the comments (as noted in comments to this diary above) are generally on-point and almost always help to develop the thesis. A few, such as Chris Cook and rdf, synthesize policy and program; and this is the penultimate need. This would be the goal of Migeru's organization, as I see it.

An aside - I don't mean to understate the contributions of all of the other excellent diarists and commentarists on ET, when I praise particular members. I am only trying to illustrate my points via obvious examples.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 12:26:30 PM EST
Could we earn some money by publishing?

I have some limited experience writing applications for EU grants, otherwise. Always happy to jump in and do a project timeline.

Traditional think-tank fare, I know, but as no-one mentioned an example so far...

Currently, I can spend 10 hours voluntarily as I am working 1/2nd and studying 1/4th. But that can change on a monthly basis.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 12:43:34 PM EST
Do we qualify for any EU grants ourselves?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 12:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The way I see it - and you might wish to publish the proposed structure - then there would be one or more "Custodian" entities with charitable objectives.

The purpose of these is to "steward" both the agreed and expressed purpose ("Aims and Objectives") of our collaboration as well as to "own" as a "Trustee" the "Intellectual" and quite possibly other types of  "Property" developed within the framework of a simple over-arching legal "umbrella".

We would then see "Investors" of money and "money's worth" of their time, maybe goods services or land.

They would have different objectives, all of which could be accommodated provided there are people on ET willing and able to enter into the necessary consensual "enterprise agreements".

Where a return is required which is less than the maximum possible ("For Profit") "commercial" return, then I would characterise such a return as "Social" if costs are covered (ie Yunus's "Not for Loss"), and as "Charitable" if the only return is in the hereafter.

I see no reason why EU grants should not be applied for by the relevant "Custodian" and used to defray the costs (as necessary) of the "Operating Members" so that they do not starve in a garret. Such grants are essentially investments with a nil return.

There is also the "meta-consultancy" aspect, where people could maybe approach the members collectively via the site and post their requirement, and ET members who carry out the work kick back an agreed ("n'th") share of any resulting revenues into the common pool.

Equally, there is no reason why a few ET'ers could not agree that a particular investment or business strategy
were not a good idea and agree among themselves our to split any gains between the people who invest and the people who conceive of and apply the concepts.

We would essentially create a framework within which a loose partnership of "intellectual" and "Financial" capital is possible.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:27:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good question! The EU does sometimes offer financial support to NGOs, though as far as I know mostly to existing NGOs. Don't know if they'll give money to start one up (I'll try to search some information later this evening). Anyway, it depends on whether we want a for-profit or not-for-profit organisation. If we do for-profit, there's no chance.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The structure proposed does not follow the conventional wisdom of either "For Profit" or "Not for Profit".

Within the consensual legal framework of the ET "Open Corporate" LLP is a new type of "open" corporate partnership and within this there is no "Profit" and no "Loss", merely the creation, exchange and sharing of "value" (ie "money's worth") in all its forms.

The proposed ET framework LLP would not be an "organisation" but rather a framework within which members "self organise". It won't "do" anything; "own" anything; enter into contracts with anyone; or "employ" anyone.

But its Members can, and will.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:55:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting! Does an LLP have legal personality?

Well, as I said, I'll do some research later on. In the mean while here's a try to leverage our 'collective wisdom':

Calling melanchthon, calling melanchthon...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed it is a "legal person". An LLP is a Corporate entity, exactly as a Company is, and since it has limited liability, in the absence of fraud (yours, or someone else's you are aware of) you can't lose more than you put in.

Other than that it's a blank sheet of paper. There isn't even a requirement for a written "LLP agreement" between members (not that I recommend leaving things like that).

It is the simplest and most flexible legal entity ever created, and it has unintended consequences.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unintended consequences?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:29:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It empowers people it was not designed to empower to do things it was not designed to allow.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:34:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
example?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What Chris Cook has been saying since he joined ET.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 03:00:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A short film  - "The Art of Flirting" - funded and created within an LLP framework

Acquisition of Chateau de Bambecq

Dozens of "Social Enterprises" - simply because it costs £20.00 and they can.

Plus a couple of recent City of Glasgow LLP's; SLIPE , IPM Eagle LLP (International Power and Mitsui) and so on and so on.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 03:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Among the unintended consequences are that the new LLP:

(a) makes "the Corporation" obsolete.

(b) allows the "Public/ Private" distinction to be dissolved.

(c) allows the sharing of risk and reward in entirely new ways.

None of this was intended.

The accountancy profession - who were crapping themselves about their increasingly exposed position as partnerships - literally blackmailed the UK government into implementing the LLP in the UK with the threat of taking themselves offshore to Jersey.

And the way they got the LLP through in Jersey is a story in itself.

This Anecdote is new to me on the subject while Prem Sikka's paper Globalisation and its Discontents
sets it all out.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:45:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just ask...
:
There are several ways to get funding from the EU. I don't know all of them (but I can make some research). The ones I know are:

- European Commission calls for tenders: they are open to for-profit organisations ad well as non-for-profit, but they must answer a specific demand of the EC and follow the terms of reference. In this case, competition is tough and there are many specialised networks of research centres and think-tanks. The main issue is to establish your credibility/reliability.

- European Commission calls for proposals: these ones are to proposals on subjects that relevant to the activity of the concerned DG issuing them.They are open only to non-for-profit organisations, universities research centres, public administrations and local authorities (however the organisation which gets the grant can subcontract part of the project to other organisations, including for-profit ones). These proposals are presented to a jury which decides whether or not they accept to finance the project. The main criteria are the following: professional credibility and financial reliability of the leader organisation and of the projects partners; European dimension of the project measure by the number of countries involved in the project (not less than 6 now); relevance of the project vis-à-vis the DG's policies; innovation... Usually there are two deadlines a year to submit projects.

That means if ET would seek EU funding, it would have (at least n the beginning) to build partnership with existing credible organisations in several European countries. It is possible: I have organised and coordinated several such European projects.

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 03:25:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some more information about calls for proposals:

  • the EU can finance up to 80% of the projet's costs, which means at least 20% must be brought by other partners;

  • a detailed budget must be established and followed in order to get the funding.


"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 03:43:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A typical take-out from the Environment DG's LIFE+ programme (funding for 2008):
Under the terms of Regulation (EC) No. 614/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 May 2007 concerning the Financial Instrument for the Environment (LIFE+ Regulation) the Commission invites European non-governmental organisations, which are primarily active in the field of environmental protection, to present proposals with a view to obtaining a financial contribution for their operation.

Contributions would be towards the costs that European environmental NGOs have to bear in carrying out the activities provided for in their 2008 annual work programme. Applicant organisations should be operating at a European level, either singly or in the form of several co-ordinated associations, with a structure (membership base) and activities covering at least three EU Member States. Activities and membership base should primarily be at a European and not at an international level.

The Programme will be open to the participation of European NGOs established (legally registered) in EU27.
Organisations should have been legally constituted for more than 2 years and have had its annual statement of accounts for the two preceding years certified by an approved auditor.


This is the only grant I found that seeks to support organisations directly rather than tendering out some programme. Haven't had time to look through everything, obviously.

An overview of grands and calls for tender can be found here.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 07:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any of the Communication Mediums can be a source of revenue: books, music, film, pamphlets, lectures, radio (broadcast/internet,) YouTube, television, & etc.  (Even websites, gadzooks :-)

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 09:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is easy.

European Tribune - Bootstrapping the ET think tank

But even if you can identify demand you still have to figure out how (whether) you're going to meet it. Who's going to be doing the work and what work can they do?

We sell 'Strategic Services and Consultancy.'

It's like fortune telling, but without the bad dress sense.

(Or possibly like management consultancy, ditto.)

Why would anyone buy them - I hear you ask?

Because between us we have statistical analysis, business modelling, creative and media services, and IT abilities to offer.

We're also quite bright. And have a reasonable record of calling things before they happen.

European Tribune - Comments - Bootstrapping the ET think tank

Initially there's going to be no revenue,

Not necessarily. There might be some selling involved initially ('Hi - this is us...') but that might not be too onerous if it's targetted sensibly.

There are also various online options.

The magical thing about self-employment is that you decide 'Today I'm going to be a...' and then you do it. You don't wait for someone to give you permission.

You have to be realistic about what you can do. At least a little. But I'm finding it hard to believe we'd be so very much less good at doing some of the things analysts and consultants do.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 01:29:28 PM EST
Spot on. Especially about permissions.

I guess quite a few of us already work the networks every day in 'strategic services and consulting'. ET has just become one strand of the overall network. For me it would be a natural extension if it became more than a strand.

All companies want fortune tellers. I was just meeting last month with a Swedish 'trendspotter' who does nothing else than just that - and gets paid handsomely for it. And he worked alone as far as I could guage.

A fortune teller is an aggregator, collating small changes in different environments into a pattern. It is multidisciplinary. The wider you can cast for bits of knowledge and insight, the better you perform as a predictor.

Companies know that all the information is out there - they just don't know how to bring it all together with meaning. It is work that is easily outsourced.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is an aspect I reckon is definitely a go and one I'd be up for selling to some degree (although no promises for my selling success.)

My view is we need to nail down some of these proposals and give it a go...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 07:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because between us we have statistical analysis, business modelling, creative and media services, and IT abilities to offer.

This is the major 'Value Added' ET brings to the table.  There are plenty of single discipline, single POV consultants but none, to my knowledge, that can span the gamut from Anthropology to Zoology -- which we can.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 09:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do we have Xylologists around ?

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 09:49:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dunno, cuz I have no idea what the hell that is!  :-)

I can play around on the xylophone and can repair old Xerox machines -- so we've got "X" double covered.  :-p

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It ought to be someone who studies wood, as in its physical properties I suppose. Apparently it doesn't really exist as a science, although in France there is an Wood Engineering School.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 05:54:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh great.   Now I'm going to have to spend the rest of my life explaining that I wrote for ET before it became a shadowy institution devoted to finding intellectual-type bankers employment after the worldwide financial collapse and to promoting anarcho-monarchist propaganda, often suspiciously placed in the LTE sections of high-profile European newspapers...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:20:49 PM EST
I speeet on institutions....ptttuh!!
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:26:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, yeah, hahaha, LOL!!!

</ hides behind humour to avoid giving my real opinion of this development, which would certainly be poorly received, result in defensive and inflamatory commenting and someone getting hurt probably and all for what? because I have no role/say/investment/interest in this matter anyway...>


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:38:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We could probably use an archivist.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I could probably use $20/hour and a laptop ...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:40:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cool, now we know your opportunity cost.

Will one of these enough?


We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 03:02:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ask for Euros.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 03:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Being paid to read about Misha couldn't be all bad if we could swing it...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 07:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Read about him?  What's to read?  Pshaw, I just want to swoon over him...  ;)

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 11:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well there's a job for redstar, Throwing cold water over other members of staff to stop them drooling over their studies.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 01:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't drool.  That's In Wales, remember?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 01:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have thought you would drool out of feminist solidarity ;-)

(excuses provided for free)

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 02:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When did I admit to drooling? I'm fairly sure I didn't.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 02:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But you didn't deny it either.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 02:46:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wanted to know who was spreading such nasty rumours about me. Had I not fallen asleep (without drooling) I'd have challenged it further.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 02:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wanted to know who was spreading such nasty rumours about me.

I was, obviously...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 04:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I presume being a part of a think tank requires one to be able to think.

Unfortunately, I have to recognize my utter lack of qualifications!!!

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:35:12 PM EST
not necessarily, you could be the tank part rather than just the think part, then the only qualification is to be able to contain large ammounts of liquids.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh. Unfortunately, I don't drink either!!!

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:39:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A drink tank sounds even better....!

And we were only talking about a Bulgarian Beer Pool for Helen the other night....

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We'll hire you for the ET Rant Tank then.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 02:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would seem to me that the structure would be influenced to some extent by the "product" and the "market".

The aim of the meta-consultancy would be to develop economic, environmental and social policy proposals and options for Europe. But exactly who would use these, and in what form.

As TBG aptly notes upthread,

ThatBritGuy:

The magical thing about self-employment is that you decide 'Today I'm going to be a...' and then you do it.

But for that to work, you need to know who you are doing it for.

So: How do we get the "product" in front of the people we believe should have it?

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 03:04:27 PM EST
The aim of the meta-consultancy would be to develop economic, environmental and social policy proposals and options for Europe. But exactly who would use these, and in what form.

I think it's more about being what the New Economics Foundation call a "Do Tank". Policy in practice: don't talk about it - JFDI (1).

My own initial focus is upon sustainable development of renewable energy and property.

(1) JDI = "Just Do It"

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 03:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(1) JDI = "Just Do It"

Fair enough, I'm just not clear on the "to whom": policymakers, the general public, media outlets?

For example: your focus is on sustainable development of renewable energy and property. To whom do you see yourself addressing your work? And how would you prepare your studies and conclusions to optimally influence these addressees?

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 03:24:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The thought that occurs two seconds too late:

If your aim is to create a foundation or a knowledge base for others to build on and apply in specific situations, that is of course an important end. I'm just saying that such a determination of purpose needs to be made explicitly.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 03:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is another more practical way of looking at it. All of us are real world people. We have physical networks too. Some of us spend our time putting together projects and acting as producers, coordinators, catalysts and aggregators using our networks to put together a team to solve a particular client problem. Or to be pulled into another team network to solve their client's problem.

These real world networks already exist. What we can add is ET to the network as a kind of Living Lab ( a project I am working on at the moment - ENoLL - the European Network of Living Labs: http://www.cdt.ltu.se/~zcorelabs).

Would it not be powerful to be able to say to these clients "yes, I've already got the top graphic designer, the coders and the behavioural psychologist lined up, but I've also got a few hundred experts over at a Delphic oracle called ET that will give you insights you never thought about for x amount of the elusive spondulex (providing your project meets with their moral approval, otherwise they might just tell you to come back when you've stopped fucking all the goodness in the the world)".

It is quite clearly a value-adding service, the only question is how much value. How do you price it? Consultants charge by the hour. How do you evaluate the worth of multidimensional time-shattered ET?

I believe that Chris Cook has demonstrated how this might be possible. It is, admittedly, a long way to the piece of paper in which we agree how to share. But the raison d'être of a theory is that it be tested. I think the time has come to stop listening to those who say "No, never been done that way, can't work. Waste of time. Throw away hundreds of years of tradition? Pah!"

I'd like to know if it could work. And my experience in Finland recently confirms that there are many people coming round to the same way of thinking. Something's got to change. And new organizational models of government, representation, business, society etc are needed.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 04:18:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven has neatly summed one of the salient possibilities. And you have the passion, too. Excellent (hope that I don't sound like Montgomery Burns)!

I don't want to put words in Chris' place, but, ultimately, the fee could become a share of 'ownership'. For now, in terms of supporting staff, it has to be a concrete currency: euros or a house or groceries or some combination of real assets and money.

But with the appropriate 'bylaws', some marketing, and some luck, why not? Some interesting developments in the U.S. lately: 1) Ron Paul's contributions soaring due to his challenge to the status quo; 2) big-time bloggers almost unanimously applauding this development; 3) polls showing that the U.S. electorate is seriously disgusted with both major parties; 4) a poll showing that a large majority of electorate disapprove of Bush and his policies (not just 'not approving', but disapproving). Folks - it is time to prepare for change.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 04:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the first stage I think any revenues should flow back into ET as an infrastructure, for the benefit of all. That means that the administration and maintenance, and site development should be rewarded. One commercial job should take care of that ;-)

In the second stage, revenues should flow into the development of the tools (possibly new software) for online consultancy and cooperation.

Only by stage 3 do I see any indivdual gaining financially. And I question whether that is really necessary. It will be essential to maintain ET as a public magazine of change. Given critical mass, ET could change public opinion. To be a member of it would mean value in the real world. Why not pool (surplus) resources to build what we believe in?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 05:28:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent!

Paul, I don't see you as a villain ;.-)

Your examples of the push for change, though, are nothing compared to those in the hearts of the rest of the world's population. Something has to be done and quite fast.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 05:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Damn I went back and read that conversation again, and it was Montgomery Burns versus the Swedish Chef. ;-)

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 07:21:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As part of Complexity Theory development Reward Systems have been a subject of research and there are automatic reward/payment systems floating around.  I'm not up on the latest but I could become so with a trip up to Santa Fe and a couple of days in the SFI library.

Off the top of my head, pricing is a function of the perceived value by the recipient.  Time spent fulfilling the task is unimportant to the purchaser, tho' not - of course - to them that perform the task(s.)  Looking at it, again off the top of my head & IIRC, the City of Cedar Rapids, Iowa paid $300,000 for the advertising slogan, "The City of Five Seasons."  (I have no idea what it means either.)  So 300 grand for a substantial answer to a serious question doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.  Perhaps the best way is to ask, "What's it worth, to you?"  Get the answer.   Do a bit of Cost and Time analysis and either do the job for the purposed fee or make them a counter-offer.

I emphatically agree "somethings got to change."  Any of us could swallow a bottle of ink and puke a better design than the bright, happy, gluttonous, money-grubbing Neo-Lib world we're all living in.  


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 at 10:55:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's exactly it: consultants charge by the hour but that is nonsense. The product has a value and a deadline. If you cannot meet the deadline you offer to do it in twice the time for half the money. Or if you want more money you offer to do it in half the time.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 02:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven Triloqvist:
Would it not be powerful to be able to say to these clients

Yes, but which clients?

There is a lot of high-level creative discourse about how such an enterprise could be structured, how to direct the revenue streams, etc., but whenever anyone asks about the specific examples of target groups or types of services (or at least, whenever I do, which seems to me to be pretty much the same thing right now :-), the response is... is a lot of high-level creative discourse about how such an enterprise could be structured, how to direct the revenue streams, etc.

I'm not trying to be petty or destructive. I think identifying target client groups and services is fundamental - more so even than how to charge for service.

And I think that once ideas start getting put on the table, we're going to find that some are not mutually compatible.

Oh, and for the record: I haven't a clue - otherwise I would have posted my vision already.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 04:55:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well in my case it would be the clients who come to me to help solve their public communications problems. And that can be anything from 'We are a small coastal town and we want to attract younger families' to 'We are developing the most humancentric mall ever and we want to create a brand that differentiates us from the boxes"

Right now I am working on communications proposals for the Greater Helsinki Region to attract more FDI (Forward Direct Investment).

In any of those the potential input of an ET tank could be minor or major. However in one sense there's a lot of ET in these projects anyway - since my thinking on certain subjects has been influenced by exchanges here.

Therre are also two speculative projects currently underway with members of ET. So I don't see a problem in finding clients. For many of us they are a natural part of our networks. It's how we work.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 05:58:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Until you have something to sell everyone is a potential client.  Once a product line¹ is determined it is the task of Marketing to go out to seek and destroy and do their little thing: verify the projected market exists, that it is large enough to justify addressing, position the product(s) in that market, & etc.  

I'm neither discounting nor disrespecting your position.  Far from it.  What I am saying is: that's Step D and we haven't done Steps A, B, and C yet.

¹If we can't come up with 10 distinct products we're not trying very hard.  

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 11:55:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I tend to think about first identifying demand and then figuring out whether one can address it. But then again, I have never created a business. Someone once said "every successful open source software project scratches a developer's itch". Similarly, I think it would be fair to say that successful startups scratch their founders' itch. In other words, if I would pay for this, others must be willing to pay for it, too seems to be the best motivation for a start-up. If I remember correctly that kind of reasoning is what motivated techno to start his furniture company nearly 30 years ago.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 12:13:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tend to do it the other way: come up with a list of things that would be fun to do and then qualify and purge the list as feedback (buying interest) from The Market comes in.  That way, no matter what one ends-up doing, it is interesting and fun.  

I've been directly involved in 15, or so, Start-Ups and peripherally with another - gosh, 20?  30? - a lot, in any case.  Of that 15 one is slowly winding down, one is on-going, and one is a dream.  The rest were abject failures.  What I can say is those that were successful met a need perceived by the founders meeting a need with a large enough Market to pay for it all.  

In some cases the founders and Market agreed almost exactly on the need for the service - Google is a case, here - but the money flowed from the 'Add-On,' advertising in the case of Google.  In other cases money flowed directly from the product.    

One never really knows, in advance.

Then there is the situation where there is interest but nobody, neither the workers in the field nor the potential market has clue one as to what to do about it.  For instance, there is a small but growing interest in a re-investigation and re-development of Analog Computers to handle Information Processing in fuzzy, dynamic, environments.  The hardware for these machines is a slam-dunk.  All that is required, to get it off the ground, is the minor matter of a completely new, revolutionary, Theory and Techniques of Computer Programming.  

And I seem to be rambling, sorry.

Right now, at this stage, I submit we need to Think Big.  We need to be outrageously weird.  We need to Blue Sky and indulge our wildest dreams.  Screw the market.  

That's Step B.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 02:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tend to do it the other way: come up with a list of things that would be fun to do and then qualify and purge the list as feedback (buying interest) from The Market comes in.  That way, no matter what one ends-up doing, it is interesting and fun.
The reason I don't approach the problem that way is that I have a hard time believing The Market can have any interest in paying me to do something I consider fun. Must be the result of years of peer conditioning, having the other kids mock me for being a nerd and stealing my lunch in the playground, so to speak.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 07:01:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there's actually 2 ways to go about this, imo: either you develop a product and look for somebody to sell it to, the approach you're describing. Or you identify a group that has a problem and you develop a solution for them.

Both are valid in their own ways. But in my experience you need either the one or the other as the first step. Everything else will develop from that - and to a certain extent organically.

As regards your footnote, maybe I'm dense but I can't think offhand of a product or service that an ET virtual consultancy can offer either more cost-effectively or in higher quality (though I'm willing to be convinced).

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 02:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not Either/Or it's Both/And.

My operational preference is matching products to markets.  But my preference shouldn't, and doesn't, preclude your or Migeru's preference for the other way 'round.

We don't have diddly until both products and markets match-up.

As regards your footnote, ... I can't think offhand of a product or service that an ET virtual consultancy can offer either more cost-effectively or in higher quality.

We do a pretty good Scoop blog.  Now all we have to do is find someone desperate or dumb enough to pay us for it.  ;-)

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 03:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ATinNM:
We do a pretty good Scoop blog.  Now all we have to do is find someone desperate or dumb enough to pay us for it.  ;-)

Yes! Who knows, maybe Kos will decide to outsource the discourse. That'd due nicely for a revenue stream.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 03:19:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there's a web site called slashdot that hosts an organization of diverse intellectuals who will argue with you for a fee - sort of like the old Monty Python skit. Apparently, the idea is that you can sharpen your dissertation or presentation or whatever by hiring them to pose the counterarguments.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 07:39:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a problem at the moment which illustrates how ET could work because it would use particular talents of the members. It is a mundane problem, but common.

I have a client that produces high quality stainless steel tubing (rectangular only) and sells it around the world. Sizes up to 300 x 400 mm.

We are working on a rebranding, visual identity, and renewal of all print materials.

The problem is that they have a tiny archive of useful pictures of their product in action. They must have used the photo of the facade of Nokia's HQ a hundred times.

Another wrinkle is that 80% of their export goes through agents who are loathe to reveal their clients to my client for fear that orders would go direct. So my client is short of reference pictures.

I have pointed out to them that details are as important as locations. Rectangular steel tube from one manufacturer is very difficult to distinguish from another - visually. So - providing the location is not identified, any pictured neat uses of the product would be useful.

Their principle areas of interest are architecture, construction and renovation, offshore and marine applications (stainless steel is fine in salty air), food processing, fireproofing (better than carbon steel), transport, machinery and Nuclear plant.

We are negotiating with the client about what to do acquire more pictures.

What if ETers who are scattered around Europe and interested in quality photography were to go out and find such applications?

The typical Gorilla prices (a Finnish photo agency) are around 55 - 120€ for reproduction in a single brochure, 175 € for webpage 1 year. 170 for a poster etc etc. The photos would have multiple uses, so the copyright fees add up. The client maybe prefer to buy outright, which I'd put at 500 - 1000 € - but it is just a guess.

Naturally it would be pay on usage, not on spec.

If anyone is interested I can provide more information and a better brief. I must run this past the client, but they are in trouble with this and something has to be done. Sending out a good photographer in Finland, let alone abroad, is going to cost € 500 -1000 a day at least.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 04:33:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Count me in!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 04:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, is that going to be the topic of the next Photoblog?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 7th, 2007 at 06:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not if the photos would need to be exclusive to the client!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 8th, 2007 at 04:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See the diary on this subject for more info

http://www.eurotrib.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2007/11/7/164118/493

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 8th, 2007 at 08:36:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So it's pictures of Rectangular steel tubing you want.

how big tubes? any special surface finishes? pictures in construction? or completed objects?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on