Hostility to the notion of limits to growth

by Jerome a Paris
Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 10:56:46 AM EST


This is why climate change and energy security are such geopolitically significant issues. For if there are limits to emissions, there may also be limits to growth. But if there are indeed limits to growth, the political underpinnings of our world fall apart. Intense distributional conflicts must then re-emerge - indeed, they are already emerging - within and among countries.

(...)

The optimists believe that economic growth can and will continue. The pessimists believe either that it will not do so or that it must not if we are to avoid the destruction of the environment. I think we have to try to marry what makes sense in these opposing visions.


The above quote, from this article by Martin Wolf, recently described as the "conservative doyen of British economic commentators", exemplifies the problems we are facing:

  • peak oil, climate change, or a combination of both is going to force us to limit our energy consumption one way or another;
  • our current economic model is predicated on growth, which itself cannot, in the framework of our existing institutions and mindset, happen without a plentiful, and itself growing, supply of cheap energy in the form of hydrocarbons.

Martin Wolf, to his credit, realizes that these two realities are incompatible, and is looking for compromise. But he is not quite looking in the right place yet:


The response of many, notably environmentalists and people with socialist leanings, is to welcome such conflicts. These, they believe, are the birth-pangs of a just global society. I strongly disagree. It is far more likely to be a step towards a world characterised by catastrophic conflict and brutal repression. This is why I sympathise with the hostile response of classical liberals and libertarians to the very notion of such limits, since they view them as the death-knell of any hopes for domestic freedom and peaceful foreign relations.

Acknowledging reality (and the likelihood of conflict) and trying to prepare for it is not "welcoming conflict." The meme that environmentalists and socialists are those looking for conflict, even after 6 years (and counting) of pointless but massively destructive and destabilising wars of occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq, which were encouraged and cheered on by all "serious" people is, quite frankly, pathetic.

A note to serious people: we are NOT LIKE YOU. We are not scared of others, and we are not selfish, petty, vicious-minded, cowardly looters trying to get away with it on someone else's dime. YOU are the problem, not us.

The reality of resource depletion and climate change is not going to go away. What CAN change is the following:

  • the link between well-being and growth. Growth is convenient in that it helps hide inequality and paper over social ills. But money does not bring happiness, once basic needs are fulfilled. We have to stop trying to value everything in monetary terms and end the dominance of (often short-termist) financial analysis of everything - which just also happens to help concentrate incomes in a staggering fashion in a small number of (investor class) hands;

  • as a first step towards that, a reassessment of how value-added and growth are counted. Burning the roof to get heat should not be counted as creating value, but with today's GDP accounting, it is. As long as the destruction of assets (scarce resources, public goods like the environment, etc) is not counted against the creation of income, things like digging and buring coal will look to be "cheap" and we'll continue to do them, even as they kill us;
  • war and conflict will not make us more prosperous nor safer. We have to get rid of politicians who think these are natural solutions to scarcity (I'll take mine and fuck the others), and who use demagogic arguments and fearmongering to get elected. Selfishness is the default mode for societies only when politicians tolerate it or encourage it, as they have in particular in the past 35 years. The discourse that national security comes through military action, macho posturing, bluster and the "might is right" mindset, which has been thoroughly proven by Bush's grand Iraqi Adventure to be catastrophic, needs to be labelled as such by the opposition, loudly and repeatedly. If the case against it is not made, the mindset will not change - or will be forced about by catastrophic change at some undefined point in the future). Taking a stand now can and must be done, to undercut the monopoly of "serious" people on geopolitical discourse.

Reality is creeping in the minds of the saner members of the punditocracy, but has not yet driven them to abandon their existing prejudices, fed by 25 years of propaganda and the virtual prosperity of ever larger financial bubbles. We have to shout louder to help them get it before it's too late.

Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/20/8528/5635

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 11:05:43 AM EST
over there from RFK (18 March 1968 in a speech in Kansas where he stated):


GNP counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage.  It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them.  It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl.  It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead...It measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile.  And it can tell us everything about America except why we are proud we are Americans.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 02:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is why I sympathise with the hostile response of classical liberals and libertarians to the very notion of such limits

One may understand where MW's sympathies (and antipathies) lie. But what will his sympathies change if the limits are really there? He's being borderline flat-earther.

Those for whom he feels antipathy see the need for adjustments to the notion of growth as current financial capitalism sees it. That means recognizing the limits of a finite planet, and distributing the gains of growth more fairly. Both imply allocating resources towards more stable and sustainable economic activity, and away from bubbly finance. Martin Wolf may not like it, but it may turn out that he has to lump it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 11:20:38 AM EST
It fully encapsulates the dilemna of people like him, who are (mostly) reality-based and, while they have clear political/ideologicla preferences, are able to see that phtysical limits might be a problem.

Saying "I like hostility to such limits" at least acknowledges the limits, and signals a message of hope (not certainty) that somehow these limits can be ignored. The fact that it is hope rather than certainty in his case makes me somewhat optimistic that something is finally percolating.

Because the inevitable conclusion of acknowledging the limits is that the whole "free markets will let the non-zero games play out in the most efficient way" is completely false.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 11:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"acknowledges the limits", I'm not so sure, he's very ambiguous there.

When I think of the dangers of conflict, I don't like the limits either. But that's where the current model of growth is taking us. Wolf frames the issue as if the "socialists" who believe in "birth-pangs" or whatever (strawman) are somehow responsible for running mankind into danger. And he appears to be declaring sympathy with climate change or peak oil deniers. Finally, he bases his entire case on the rising tide argument re economic growth.

What he needs to decide is what he really has to say about global warming and finite resources. But maybe the financial system will give him a big prod before he makes up his mind.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 11:55:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For if there are limits to emissions, there may also be limits to growth. But if there are indeed limits to growth, the political underpinnings of our world fall apart.

Still, I never thought I'd read these words--even an admission of possibility-- from him.
Of course he bases his arguments on "revealed truth"-- he always has. But he's not a fool, and such insights have happened before.

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 02:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A very poignant post. Nominating John Edwards would be a first step for the American electorate to recognize what is the essence of your post, social justice comes before greed which the word 'growth' has replaced in our lexicon.

Otherwise; praying that Hillary Clinton will recognize the futility of what her husband and his minions (Robert Rubin etc.) have espoused; you can be greedy and have social justice at the same time.

by An American in London on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 11:24:02 AM EST
The first paragraph of Wolf's article is the only one not behind a subscription wall and it is thus:

FT.com / Columnists / Martin Wolf - The dangers of living in a zero-sum world economy

We live in a positive-sum world economy and have done so for about two centuries. This, I believe, is why democracy has become a political norm, empires have largely vanished, legal slavery and serfdom have disappeared and measures of well-being have risen almost everywhere. What then do I mean by a positive-sum economy? It is one in which everybody can become better off. It is one in which real incomes per head are able to rise indefinitely.
It really annoys me how fond people are of the idea that there was no economic growth before the industrial revolution. Personally I would take a longer view and claim that the "current system" has been in existence and providing growth, prosperity and political advances since at least the 14th century (in Europe).

On the other hand, I do have to agree (and I know some people here will disagree with me) that political liberalism, an open society, social mobility, etc, are politically easier if there is strong economic growth. If the pie is expanding rapidly there is less incentive for defending privilege at all costs.

It the limits of growth are breached there are two posibilities. One is catastrophic overshoot and collapse, followed hopefully by another cycle of growth (which implies great hardship and then a slow opening up of society again), and the other is a sort of stationary-state economy. I have a hard time imagining how that would work, but one possibility is to consider three economic sectors whose business cycle is not synchronised, so when A is growing B is peaking and C is in a recession, and so on. The total amount of resources used by all three sectors might stay roughly constant but all three sectors would independently appear to follow normal business cycles. I am afraid, however, that such a system would appear to people in it to have inflation with negative "real GDP growth".

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 02:32:18 PM EST
I need to check references, but the very notion of the Industrial Revolution has been called in question by historians for some time now, the accent being on the longer term process from the "mid"-Middle Ages on.

As to the economic underpinnings of freedom and democracy, it's a two-way deal. Not chicken and egg, but a dynamic interlinking. (The "success" of the Nazi economy was posited on war and could only lead headlong into that, thus containing the seeds of its own demise).

All of which doesn't counter Wolf's point. I think the distribution graph Jerome posts does that most effectively. For the greater part of the population today, growth is barely perceptible.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 03:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... the Industrial Revolution, as opposed to the Mercantile and Agricultural revolutions (at least) that came most immediately before it, was not the economic growth, but the increased reliance on fossil fuels.

That is, innovations always come in waves, and the waves of innovations themselves comes in waves of bigger innovation waves separated by less dramatic innovation waves. If you want to label the biggest wave of innovations in a particular period a Revolution, then if you look around, you will find others just as dramatic.

Now, certainly it is likely to have felt "especially Revolutionary" inside England, since that was the wave of innovations that led to the reversal of the balance of trade between the Indian subcontinent and the European subcontinent, which was, in turn, the foundation for the establishment of the Raj. After all, the armies and munitions that England used to conquer India primarily originated inside India ... the power that came from England was its superior financial clout.

However, with respect to our current limits of growth, what is critical about the changes in institutional structures associated with the Industrial Revolution and later fossil fuel waves of innovation is the way that we have become dependent upon regular, annual economic growth.

That is, technological growth, resulting from more efficient use of given material inputs by a given population, necessarily involves innovation, and so inherits the wavelike character of innovation.

By contrast, extensive growth, resulting from acquiring more material input per person, permits economic growth without improved material efficiency, and so can proceed on a regular annual basis, except for the occasional recessions ... provided that it is possible to acquire an every increasing material input per person, and possible to generate the effective demand for the newly produced products.

At one time, conventional wisdom took both requisites for ongoing extensive growth for granted ... but as a result of the Great Depression, our societies learned that effective demand could not be taken for granted (of course, some individuals understood that previously, but there is a big difference between a conclusion of individual analysis and having that knowledge sink into the structure of social institutions).

Now, we are entering a period when as societies we will discover that the material input requisite can't be taken for granted either.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 at 07:26:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bruce, can you develop this comment (and the one about Justinian's Flea) into a diary?

This is an important insight, at least for me.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 at 10:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, given that I have four days off rather than just the weekend, I reckon I can.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 at 11:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 03:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, I saw that but I haven't read it yet.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 04:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In The Great Transformation, Karl Polanyi notes the important qualitative difference between growth rates high enough to keep ahead of Malthus, and rates that leave societies in what he terms the Malthusian trap. If I recall, he sees the industrial revolution as the turning point in this regard.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 03:23:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that the "Information Revolution" currently just begun is a second revolution that will dwarf the Industrial Revolution.

The challenge is. as Jerome says, the "sustainability" of the growth enabled by this revolution in terms of minimising the calls upon finite resources.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 06:14:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to take the long view again and claim that the information revolution (at least in Europe) dates back to Gutenberg's movable type printing press.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 06:45:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I doubt that matching the Industrial Revolution in significance is possible: After all, what happened then was the disassociation between production and physical labour. The 'information revolution' is so far 'merely' a revolution in the speed and capacity of bulk transmission of information. Important? Yes. A match for mechanisation, in terms of social, political and economic consequences? No, definitely not.

- Jake

Your representatives may not listen to you. But they do read your e-mail.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 06:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well - yes and no.

It's possible to imagine a world in which industrial production is steady-state, or nearly so, and on a replacement only basis, and most of the value comes from culture.

You could then have continuous growth, literally only limited by people's imaginations.

This issue is more complicated than it looks, because the real reason 'growth' is necessary is because capitalism relies on deferred gratification and the promise that things will be better tomorrow - in the sense of better everything, from faster cars and computers to less time spent on chores.

Of course the promise is a lie, because the cost is excessive. When you spend 8-16 hours a day working and another couple of hours commuting, an iPhone is a poor consolation prize.

If culture and deep inventiveness became core values, replacing the idea of accumulation as 'progress', that would certainly be revolutionary.

By deep inventiveness I mean the creativity needed to produce Maxwell's equations or relativity, rather than the creativity needed to produce an iPhone.

Currently we're wasting bright people by making them to do pointless and often silly things. Freeing up people from the work -> consume treadmill might create some unexpected results.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 07:57:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
I doubt that matching the Industrial Revolution in significance is possible: After all, what happened then was the disassociation between production and physical labour. The 'information revolution' is so far 'merely' a revolution in the speed and capacity of bulk transmission of information. Important? Yes. A match for mechanisation, in terms of social, political and economic consequences? No, definitely not.

It's sometimes hard to estimate the significance of a revolution when you are only half way through it.  The industrial revolution is still playing out with the roboticisation and outsourcing of production to China etc.

The information revolution has the capacity of extracting hugely greater value from a given set of resources.  It take very little materials to build  amobile phone and transmision network, but think of the amount of time and materials saved by having say (a delivery van) contactable at all times.

PCs are becoming more powerful by orders of magnitude but often take less physical materials to build.  The bigger problem is that all consumer durables are becoming non-durable, and you have to throw away your v=car, phone, PC after shorter and shorter intervals.  We have to do something radical about making manufacturers 100% responsible for the maintenance/recycling costs of their wares to break that cycle.

So it IS conceivable that we can achieve sustainable growth from diminishing resources - and at a micro level we already are in many industries.  This is partly why more recent Oil price shocks have had less impact that the previous ones.  The problem is whole economies are still becoming more resource dependent and so hugely incremental efficiencies will be required to ofset resource depletion all the time.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 08:28:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Still, I stand by my estimate of the Industrial Revolution as the most significant event in human history (bar one: Agriculture is indisputably more significant) - and likely to remain so. For three reasons: Industrialised agriculture, industrialised manufacturing and industrialised, scientific medicine.

Without these three advances, you'd die from diseases that are today considered trivial (at least in the developed world) and every citizen not working as a bureaucrat, soldier or parasite (nobility, clergy, etc.) would be tied up producing foodstuffs and very basic commodities.

The ability to efficiently produce basic things like food and clothes in bulk quantities, combined with the industrialised distribution systems for these goods (as well as for clean water) are quite simply the underpinning of every creature comfort you or I currently enjoy.

Ultimately, satisfaction of basic human demands - heat, air, water, food, shelter - must surely rank as more important than any other advance. And industrialisation, for the first time in human history, provided the tools to ensure that those demands are reliably met for the vast majority of the population (notwithstanding the fact that the world lacks the political will to use the tools in this fashion).

- Jake

Your representatives may not listen to you. But they do read your e-mail.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 08:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Information precedes praxis; to build a steam engine you have to know how to build a steam engine.  

Praxis informs information; building a steam engine teaches one how to build a better steam engine.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 11:54:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I identify three phases in history.

In the first iteration, Society was decentralised but disconnected, and "market presence" was "physical" ie buyers and sellers met physically in a market forum.

In this current second iteration, Society has become centralised, but connected, and market presence has been through (increasing consolidated) intermediaries.

The next, probably final, iteration - "Society 3.0" - will be decentralised but connected, and market presence will be a "network presence".

The transition to Society 3.0 manifested itself most memorably in Napster, the out-rider of the "peer to peer" markets to come.

I give banks (ie credit intermediaries) between 2 and 5 years before they are "Napsterised" and after this happens, progress to a fairer society will be rapid.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
I give banks (ie credit intermediaries) between 2 and 5 years before they are "Napsterised" and after this happens, progress to a fairer society will be rapid.

I.E i HAVE SPARE CASH, YOU NEED A LOAN, we transact a loan over the internet with a third party insuring my risk that you might default?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Along those lines, yes.

Except that the parties to the credit transaction (which may be settled in money or even "money's worth") will be members of the "third party".

ie a form of mutualised credit I call a "Guarantee Society".

Investments are something else, and distinct IMHO from credit (= time to pay").

Here I see investors in productive assets (eg property renewable energy) connected "peer to peer" with people who need investment. The difference being that the investment vehicle would no longer be the existing sub-optimal "Corporation".

This will be superseded by partnership based forms such as US LLC's and UK LLP's.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:28:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:

Except that the parties to the credit transaction (which may be settled in money or even "money's worth") will be members of the "third party".

ie a form of mutualised credit I call a "Guarantee Society".


How is that different from a Credit Union?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:41:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A credit union takes in deposits and lends them out. That's all. There is no credit creation not backed 100% by reserves.

Credit Unions create no credit "ex nihilo", as a bank does, based upon the amount of capital set by the Basel-based BIS.

www.zopa.com and www.prosper.com essentially disintermediate/ Napsterise credit unions, but lack a guarantee function.

The idea of a "Guarantee Society" is that bilateral "trade" credit - ie from seller to buyer - is subject to a mutual guarantee by members of the GS collectively in respect of which the users of the guarantee pay an amount into a "default pool".

Settlement of the credit granted may be either in conventional money, or, if the seller agrees, in "money's worth" (ie barter).

The result is of banking without the bank as intermediary, although there is a requirement for a service provider to manage the system, allocate "guarantee limits" manage defaults etc.

ie the bank becomes a service provider.

But note that this model facilitates the creation and circulation of wealth through "mutualising" credit creation.

Equitable investment of existing wealth is another matter entirely.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 01:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there not a danger that such Guarantee Societies will attract the highest risk borrowers who cannot get loans elsewhere and thus represent a sub-prime risk?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 01:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are talking "bottom up" community based groups here, probably both geographical and functional. ie any group of individuals with a "common bond".

But local groupds will be able to link together to form "pools of pools" and so on...

Conventional "microcredit" Grameen Bank style relies upon small groups of guarantors.

And when you think about it, all that credit derivatives are is a form of time limited guarantee, but not exactly a transparent one...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 02:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
We are talking "bottom up" community based groups here, probably both geographical and functional. ie any group of individuals with a "common bond".

But local groupds will be able to link together to form "pools of pools" and so on...

Sounds like the credit union movement to me....

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 at 06:21:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Guarantee Society concept enables the membership of Credit Unions to engage with each other and with businesses in mutually beneficial credit creation, and with the additional possibility of settlement of this bilateral credit in what would essentially be a "local currency".

Existing credit unions would manage the process and the default "pool", and handle accounting and defaults etc as "service providers".

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 at 07:08:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends on how you define the terms,  If we define the industrial revolution as being essential about mechanisation of largely pre-existing processes - replacing horses with engines, muscle with coal and oil power etc. - then that process has been largely over some time - electric toobrushes notwithstanding.

What has happened since - automation, miniturisation, nanotechnology, electronics, digitisation, bioengineering and computerisation etc. are largely about "the knowledge" revolution - doing totally new and previously unimaginable things - didn't really get going until the middle of the last century - is ungoing, and is qualitatively different.  I don't think we are even beginning to see its potential yet.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Still, I stand by my estimate of the Industrial Revolution as the most significant event in human history (bar one: Agriculture is indisputably more significant) - and likely to remain so. For three reasons: Industrialised agriculture, industrialised manufacturing and industrialised, scientific medicine."
-----------

To build on some ideas in earlier replies, here is a parallel:

You quite properly count agriculture as a great revolution, and count as one aspect of the greatness of the industrial revolution the emergence of industrialised agriculture.

Likewise, however, one can regard much of modern physical technology (both production and products) as a sort of "informationalised industry", made possible only by the explosion in information technology. The information revolution thus gets an increment of credit as a part of the industrial revolution, in addition to its other revolutionary aspects.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 at 03:47:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... communication revolution that was:
The 'information revolution' is so far 'merely' a revolution in the speed and capacity of bulk transmission of information.

To the extent that it has happened yet, the Information Revolution is a revolution in the speed and capacity of the customized transmission of information.

And if we are going to move from a paradigm of throwing material and energy at the inefficiency of one-size-fits-all designs to a paradigm of mass roll-out of designs customized to be efficient matches to their context, the "Information Revolution Thus Far" would seem to be an essential pre-requisite.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 03:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are "Straussian" overtones here. Economists like to feel they delivered us from barbarism by creating a world that is not a "zero-sum game."

I could rant some more about that, but the key objection is that there seems to be a huge correlation between measures of improved wellbeing and energy usage, particularly fossil fuel exploitation.

That suggests that things weren't so much "zero-sum" as mostly a product of growth. If Wolf is admitting that, it's an interesting admission, although of course he wouldn't admit that "growth" is purely a matter of energy consumption, he'd try to make some claim that trade is the engine...

As for the future, the key is to rethink "productivity" which tends to be measured in terms of return on human or capital input. The future of "growth" is in "productivity" that is increasing output for static amounts of energy input. At least, that my utopian idea for the day.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 10:08:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The future of "growth" is in "productivity" that is increasing output for static amounts of energy input. At least, that my utopian idea for the day.

Well, that's not a very novel idea.

Increasing output for the same or smaller energy use is the history of basic/process industry for the last 30 years.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 10:32:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
or the last 4000 years.  How did they build those pyramids?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Theres good evidence that it was a social welfare scheme to keep people busy during the two  to three months a year when agricultural work was impossible. an early example of socialist work schemes to keep the population in food and loyal to the empire.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure the guys at the wrong end of the whips appreciated it!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:37:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, no. Actually not. If you look at most industrial processes, energy use for production has not deviated significantly in 10 years or so.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 01:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... the Industrial Revolution that is positive sum, and much that is new. Its just that the positive sum part is not the new part. The revolution in trade from luxuries to staples that saw Egypt emerge as the granary for Roman cities was positive sum ... it was, indeed, positive sum in precisely the Ricardian comparative advantage sense.

After the cold spell that allowed the Bubonic plague to climb down from the upper Nile River Valley to the Mediterranean world, that reliance on rapid transport across the Med turned from a blessing into a curse ... and undermining Justinian the Great's reconquests of North Africa, Iberia and Italy (guess who recently read Justinian's Flea?) ...

... but then after the collapse of that system emerged the North Atlantic economy built on the heavy horse-drawn moldboard plough and the three-field system, and the growth that followed from that was positive sum growth as well.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Dec 22nd, 2007 at 07:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to quote myself. Something will need to replace capitalism/consumerism. Here's my recent essay on what:

After Capitalism, What?

Economists and business leaders are unwilling even to consider the question. Some have said that the wealthy will just retreat behind their walls (like in apartheid South Africa) and defend themselves against the hungry mob.

But can you buy the loyalty of the guards? Most palace coups are done by insiders. The wealthy don't seem to realize that there will be no place to hide this time.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 03:49:30 PM EST
I'm not familiar with Martin Wolf's work, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment.  Let us accept his thesis that ongoing and sustained (if somewhat cyclical, and very unevenly distributed) economic growth is at least one of the reasons behind the relative peace and stability of the western world since WW2.  It is intuitively obviously easier to maintain social harmony if most of the people are at least a little bit better off with each passing year (even if they feel the super rich are coining it).

Conservative economists are forever using the "trickle down effect" analogy to explain why even massively increased profits are ultimately to everyone's benefit through investment and jobs.  Capitalist growth also depends on a growth in consumer consumption which means at least some of the incremental growth in wealth has to be shared.

The corollary of this argument is that if Growth becomes negative due to absolute external constraints - peak, oil, climate change etc. - then it will become a lot more difficult to maintain social order and international peace.  People whose living standards are being squeezed will look at the super-rich and expect them to take the bulk of the hit - and the natural response of the elite will be to say that someone else is to blame - Russia, Venezuela, Arab Oil producers etc. - and hence the resource wars will intensify.

The really annoying people are the socialists and environmentalists who point out  that such conflicts are not inevitable if we have better efficiencies, less waste, fairer distribution of wealth allied to changes in our profligate life styles.  These naysayers and prophets of doom have been arguing against growth as the panacea for everything for years, and the growth has always come through in the end - thanks to technology, the outsourcing of production to China etc., and ubiquitous power of Branding to create new markets.

The significance of Martin Wolf's remarks may be that he realises that we are running out of magic bullets to keep the growth engine running, and that an end to sustainable growth may indeed be appearing on the horizon.  For those who have always believed in growth as the panacea for everything, that is an appalling vista.  It means the reds, pinkos and the greens have been right all along.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 06:21:23 PM EST

The significance of Martin Wolf's remarks may be that he realises that we are running out of magic bullets to keep the growth engine running, and that an end to sustainable growth may indeed be appearing on the horizon.  For those who have always believed in growth as the panacea for everything, that is an appalling vista.  It means the reds, pinkos and the greens have been right all along.

Exactly - except that we'recoming to an end to "growth", as currently defined. We have not tried "sustainable growth" yet.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 02:21:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let us accept his thesis that ongoing and sustained (if somewhat cyclical, and very unevenly distributed) economic growth is at least one of the reasons behind the relative peace and stability of the western world since WW2.

No, let's not.  :-)

Look, if process A and process B are concurrent you have to prove A caused B.  Merely saying A caused B, because it fits a particular philosophy or ideology, is a gross violation of Intellectual Honesty.  

For example:  is it not more likely there are feedbacks between A and B and it is more likely the increase in political stability - not slaughtering each other & not spending money in preparation to slaughter each other - was the Trigger Affect for widespread economic growth in Europe post WW2?  Rather than the reverse?

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... Democratic Republic of Congo over the past two decades, its hard to avoid seeing peace and political stability as strong pre-requisites for economic growth of the kind experienced in the EU over the same period.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 10:03:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune: Hostility to the notion of limits to growth
... I sympathise with the hostile response of classical liberals and libertarians to the very notion of such limits [to growth], since they view them as the death-knell of any hopes for domestic freedom and peaceful foreign relations.
Yes, he sympathises, but does he have any substantive criticism of the Club of Rome's Limits to Growth models or of the environmental economics of, say, Hermann Daly, or is it all ideological opposition?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 06:52:09 AM EST
Martin Wolf - Hostility to the notion of limits to growth
It is far more likely to be a step towards a world characterised by catastrophic conflict and brutal repression.

And how lucky we are that we haven't seen any of that during the last fifty years.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 07:47:39 AM EST
He's just concerned that his (our?) band of oppressors is going to turn to infighting.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 07:56:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's just concerned that this time it could be his ass on the line, and not someone else's - someone far away whom he can ignore.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 07:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It could have been so much worse. I am currently reading a book on the history of the 30 years war. What we did, especially in Bohemia and Bavaria, isn't exactly things that instill national pride...

Something of a Kongo style holocaust.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 10:32:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a horrible suspicion that future historians will regard the period post WW2 until now as the age of Plenty - and Waste, of relative peace and prosperity.  I sincerely hope I am wrong and that Vietnam, Cambodia, Rwanda and current famines will not seem like small local issues compared to what future generations will have to endure.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:11:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As stated before, the main issue is: are we as a species able to shift our center of consciousness up.
Become more compassionate, visionary, loving.

What is needed is a spiritual renaissance, in order to recognize the whole again. All esoteric traditions of all great religions offer tools to explore the spiritual domain.

If we continue using the intellect-sec, we will remain stuck in -ever partial- perspectives and not be able to shift up [note: I'm a PhD researching 'Decision making processes in a transition towards a sustainable energy regime'].

Consequence: involution, collapse. Alternative: abundant clean energy and other resources for all. And a platform to address other pressing issues.

See for example
http://www.trecers.net/ http://www.gezen.nl/www.gezen.nl/indexb329.html?option=com_content&task=view&id=60&Itemi d=68
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/21stCentElectricCar.pdf
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2007/20070416_energy/video.htm
http://www.projectbetterplace.com/
http://www.google.org/recharge/index.html
http://www.google.com/corporate/green/energy/index.html
http://www.wie.org/j28/business.asp
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7987612343225687713

What is needed is the will to engage our potential. In order to be able to will this, we need an inward turn.

There we recognize that we always have been already ONE. No big deal and at the same time the quintessential deal.
See http://www.bigpicture.tv/videos/watch/07e1cd7dc

Pace e Bene, Emil Möller, Netherlands

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 08:05:14 AM EST
Thank you for the resources, Emil, especially

_See http://www.bigpicture.tv/videos/watch/07e1cd7dc _

Chopra has always made sense because he is able to ´whole-think´, to integrate most current conditions and knowledge to a oneness of health and sustainability.

I hope you can write more about this and your work on ET!

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 08:32:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Chopra? Gimme a friggin' break! The man is a class-A woo-woo. His 'thinking' on quantum mechanics are astrology-grade nonsense. That kind of thing is exactly what we don't need, and frankly, I though that progressives had learned their lesson after the Sokal Hoax.

- Jake

Your representatives may not listen to you. But they do read your e-mail.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 09:28:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I´ll give you a break. (;  I don´t know quantum mechs from a whole in the ground and have never heard him talk about it.  However, in overall health, medicine, tradition++ WITH Common Sense, I found him believable.  So, give me some pointers.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._
by metavision on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 10:00:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He has some straaange ideas about a universal consciousness-field or something like that. To me it sounds like the evil stepchild of Platonic dualism and New Age mysticism, but I can't really give you a summary of his ideas on that subject, because they don't make a whole lot of sense. Which wouldn't be so bad if he didn't keep making half-assed references to quantum mechanics and quantum field theory to justify his magical thinking. On top of that, he's generally fond of po-mo-babble and tends to deploy a bunch of really irritating canards along the lines of 'science has been wrong before' and 'science doesn't know everything [implying that therefore it knows nothing].'

But I haven't really spent much time on dissecting him - I just noted some of the quantum mechanics abuses and general anti-science red flags, and filtered him out. You'd be better off browsing Respectful Insolence or Denialism; they seem to find it amusing to fisk him. You'd have to go back in the archives a while, though, because both seem to have grown tired of posting about him - not that I blame them.

- Jake

Your representatives may not listen to you. But they do read your e-mail.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 01:20:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the explanation, Jake, but I find the links unconvincing because they are based on a rigid view of science-nothing-but and keep bouncing back to a shared, personal dislike as support for their argument.

It does not seem far-fetched at all for a ´full human being´... to be more than the sum of its studied parts.  A lot of people snicker at terminology, like New Age, and are not willing to consider a farther development of consciousness that is experienced and not researched yet.  

A lot of knee-jerk reactions come from the connotations of words also and/or the hidden agendas of personal gain, but I cannot discard the ´woo´ just yet.

 

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 02:16:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the explanation, Jake, but I find the links unconvincing because they are based on a rigid view of science-nothing-but

Well, if you want to convince me that I should go 'beyond science' or somesuch, you really need to make a good case for why that's going to be worth the bother. Science has, for the last several centuries, been coming up with exceptionally good descriptions of the world (not to mention neat technological spin-offs) with an efficiency and rapidity that is simply unmatched by any other human endeavour in the history of mankind.

So, if you want me to do something other than science in order to understand some part of the world, then you need to convince me not only that that part of the world is inaccessible to science (which is a pretty extraordinary claim in and of itself) and that your ideas of how to investigate it actually make sense. You also have to convince me that your new field is at least as interesting to study as science. That's a darn tough job.

and keep bouncing back to a shared, personal dislike as support for their argument.

That really is not a particularly fair summary of their posts. They don't base their judgement of Chopra as a woo-woo on their dislike. They dislike Chopra because they judge him to be a woo-woo. And considering the things they quote him as saying, they aren't too far wrong about that.

It does not seem far-fetched at all for a ´full human being´... to be more than the sum of its studied parts.

Lots of stuff 'doesn't seem far fetched' but still turns out to be wrong. Like the Aether. Or phlogiston. Or epicycles. History is littered with ideas that seemed good at the time. Most new age woo-woo doesn't even rise to that level.

A lot of people snicker at terminology, like New Age, and are not willing to consider a farther development of consciousness that is experienced and not researched yet.

The problem isn't that it's not researched yet. The problem is that none of these guys seem to have a clue how to start researching it. If they can put up a falsifiable hypothesis or propose an experimental design that'll let us measure whatever it is they claim exists, then we're talking. Vague feel-good statements about 'conciousness' and 'experience' just don't cut it.

- Jake

Your representatives may not listen to you. But they do read your e-mail.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 02:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"If our brains were simple enough to understand, we'd be too stupid to know what a brain was".

Science has been immensely useful in describing the world outside the mind - as experienced by the mind. But current scientific methods are less useful in experiential study. Ask a victim of Altzheimers. Or someone with bipolar disorder or a dog.

When the measuring instrument has a mind of its own, some new thought (by minds) is required. I read a lot about the physiology of the brain. I'm quite aware of Learned Behaviour theory. But I do not understand 'Belief'. I know it can exist. But I don't know what it is or how it could be scientifically examined.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 03:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Because science does not (yet) understand the brain, science never can understand the brain?

I'll freely grant you that the brain might be the limit of scientific knowledge. Every new line of research might be the limit of science. It's always possible - in a strict philosophical sense of 'possible.' We don't know that the barrier isn't there, because we haven't tried to go beyond it yet.

But the flip side of that is that we don't know that it is there either until we've actually hit the barrier, and it makes no sense at all to assume when going into a new avenue of study that it's impossible to carry to a successful conclusion. Such an assumption would be a show-stopper. If the limit is there, we'll find it. The hard way.

Now, IANAD, but your medical examples seem rather poorly chosen. We can slow down Alzheimers. We can't stop it yet, but there are credible research programs that are trying to figure out how to do that. We do understand many of the proximate causes, and several of the ultimate causes underpinning the disease. Same with bipolar disorder. I don't understand 'belief' either, but I have a couple of more or less credible guesses, as have the people who are actually researching it. I don't know where you're getting with the dog, though?

The salient point, however, is that you can always find a subject that's on the frontier of science, because, to paraphrase a famous populariser of science (whose name escapes me at the moment) 'as the island of our knowledge expands, so do the shores of our ignorance.' Pointing out that science can't explain everything (yet) is nothing more than an exercise in perpetually moving goalposts.

And it is a fundamental misconception that the instruments we use to measure brains have 'a mind of their own.' I am not involved in that kind of research, but my understanding is that we use (mainly) 3d-NMR imaging, ultrasound Doppler and image contrasting to measure and interpret blood flow in different regions of the brain. I see a lot of electrical circuits, a couple of piezo-electric crystals, a RF emitter and some big-ass magnets in those experimental setups. Don't see no minds, though.

- Jake

Your representatives may not listen to you. But they do read your e-mail.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 10:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems you just proved Sven´s and my doubts, no?  (;  There are areas pure science has not reached (yet) therefore....

Don't see no minds, though.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 06:28:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The operative word here is yet.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 06:44:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the flip side of that is that we don't know that it is there either until we've actually hit the barrier, and it makes no sense at all to assume when going into a new avenue of study that it's impossible to carry to a successful conclusion. Such an assumption would be a show-stopper. If the limit is there, we'll find it. The hard way.

It is even more uncertain: how do we know that a barrier is a barrier? How do we know that we NEVER EVER get to know the other side? All we can surely know is the possibilities that we experienced!

I am rather optimistic about mind research. As we try to build robots, we may conclude that most key qualities (including bias in strength of earlier of first experiences, say) are kind of necessary to a cybernetic system of certain complexity level.

On the other hand, will the knowledge of human mind would necessarily be spread without reservations and just as openly as the knowledge in fundamental physics?  Couldn't that knowledge be "worth" more restricted?! We even have commercialization of "standard" scientific research under way.

The NLP (Neuro-lingquistic programming) development is interesting. The NLP guys do not want themselves to register their discipline as science by official institutions. Either they do not wish to bother with merely academic status (and perhaps "open source" standards), or prefer to make money - it depends how cynically you want to see them. Their approach is pragmatical foremost, but they possibly have much interesting knowledge and experience, and there is a vague philosophy behind. If someone would wish, some interesting science could be made of that, I think.

by das monde on Tue Dec 25th, 2007 at 05:05:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I understand it, they're explicitly developing tricks that work - analysing the tricks might help understand how things are put together, but that's not really what they're at - they're oriented towards theraputic results rather than building a science of mind.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 25th, 2007 at 05:07:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But they formulate and use rather sensible models how the mind works. Much of their therapy is based on successful models. That is quite a scientific aspect. In aggregate, NLP is probably more complete and scientific than Freud.
by das monde on Tue Dec 25th, 2007 at 09:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Because science does not (yet) understand the brain, science never can understand the brain?

I'll freely grant you that the brain might be the limit of scientific knowledge. Every new line of research might be the limit of science. It's always possible - in a strict philosophical sense of 'possible.' We don't know that the barrier isn't there, because we haven't tried to go beyond it yet.

Hmmm... there are many scientific studies about the brain that explain a wide range of mental phenomena. From a great variety of disciplines.

It's possible that the mind is an emergent property of the brain and thereby has to be explained and understood in its own terms. This can be to a greater or lesser degree. A lesser degree might be pictured as the emergence of waves in water, and the greater degree as the emergence of matter from quantum interactions (at this point someone and migeru may flame me for getting my physics so crude and wrong).

We have had a couple of runs at a purely 'positivistic' understanding of the brain/mind/human psychology (cue B.F. Skinner) and these have not been very fruitful. This is not to say that the angle should thereby be closed, but if you are a government that has to decide which research programmes to fund, you might more successfully go for some mix of qualitative and quantitative research (and if you're a research department applying for funds you should always use the over-abused 'interdisciplinary' buzzword).

You can either base this on a pragmatic estimation that the science to go quantitative all the way is not there yet, or on a philosophical hunch that the mind is an emergent phenomenon.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 07:15:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nanne:
A lesser degree might be pictured as the emergence of waves in water, and the greater degree as the emergence of matter from quantum interactions (at this point someone and migeru may flame me for getting my physics so crude and wrong).
No, I'll just give you a few pointers.

Wikipedia: Quasiparticle

In physics, a quasiparticle refers to a particle-like entity arising in certain systems of interacting particles. It can be thought of as a single particle moving through the system, surrounded by a cloud of other particles that are being pushed out of the way or dragged along by its motion, so that the entire entity moves along somewhat like a free particle. The quasiparticle concept is one of the most important in condensed matter physics, because it is one of the few known ways of simplifying the quantum mechanical many-body problem, and is applicable to an extremely wide range of many-body systems.
In fact, there is a theoretical model where an electron gas of integer charge forms elementary excitations of fractional charge!
Wikipedia: Fractional quantum Hall effect

There are two main theories of the FQHE.

  • Fractionally-charged quasiparticles: this theory, proposed by Laughlin, hides the interactions by constructing a set of quasiparticles with charge , where the fraction is as above.
  • Composite Fermions: this theory was proposed by Jain, and Halperin, Lee and Read. In order to hide the interactions, it attaches two (or, in general, an even number) flux quanta to each electron, forming integer-charged quasiparticles called composite fermions. The fractional states are mapped to the integer QHE. This makes electrons at a filling factor 1/3, for example, behave in the same way as at filing factor 1. A remarkable result is that filling factor 1/2 corresponds to zero magnetic field. Experiments support this.
Quantum mechanics is pretty mind-blowing as far as the nature of physical reality goes.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 07:30:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that none of these guys seem to have a clue how to start researching it. If they can put up a falsifiable hypothesis or propose an experimental design that'll let us measure whatever it is they claim exists, then we're talking. Vague feel-good statements about 'conciousness' and 'experience' just don't cut it.

Barbara was telling me once about the intriguing claims of a certain esoteric researcher (for lack of a better term). Apparently this person refuses to disclose her method in detail on the grounds that it is dangerous in the hands of untrained practitioners, or something like that. But the problem is that this prevents her claims from being confirmed independently, and that means that I don't have to take the claims seriously.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 04:50:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That´s a long littany against and it only says you see no reason to look into it.  There seems to be a lot of so and so called it ´whatever´, but little understanding of context.  You will convince yourself of what you need, when you want, so I don´t need to convince or prove and the vigor against doesn´t convince me.

I´ve heard Chopra speak in favor of garlic, ginger,... the harm of artificial chemicals, or using motors near the head...´  I didn´t need more ´proof´ because it confirmed my knowledge and experience.  He spoke as a doctor who used reason and Common Sense to integrate health into the bigger picture of western lifestyles, so I contrasted the information and decided it was good.  I couldn´t care less about qm in this context, because it´s irrelevant.

If I get other direct material and it doesn´t add up for me, I will know it and/or contrast it again.  No prob.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 05:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is historically the greatest enemy of science.

Of course the world is flat! Otherwise we'd fall off!

Of course there have to be ether, and light cannot possibly have a fixed speed! That would result in all sorts of senseless absurdities in the very nature of time and space itself!

Etc.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 07:05:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your examples have nothing to do with common sense, and everything to do with mistaken science.

And it's fairly obviously tautological to say that bad science is the enemy of good...

Jake S puts it better below when he says common sense is fine but can't replace controlled studies.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 05:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The world being flat was a commonsense understanding that was repeatedly debunked by rational argument based on visible evidence, since the days of the ancient Greeks and Chinese.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 01:03:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mostly it was a myth created by Washington Irving in his history of Christopher Columbus, that has taken hold.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 02:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It still makes sense from a common sense perspective. Even as I had seen pictures of the planet from space, done the math, calculated how things should fall and then done the experiments to prove that the world really is round, it still felt wrong.

It took a Newtonesque experience to actually understand gravity and the nature of the planet, so it made sense to me.

With quantum mechanics I'm not there yet, if I'll ever be. Sure, it can be both a particle and a wave, and stuff depends on if you look at it or not. I've done the math, know the theory, have done the laser experiment and seen it being proved with my own eyes, but still, it doesn't make sense!

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 05:30:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have to agree. Even for such a simple concept as inertia. With movement in a circle, for example, it feels like there is an outward force, and should the rope be cut, the object would move outwards, possibly in a spiral fashion... The actual tangental trajectory seems quite counterintuitive.

I remember quite well how as a small child I learned something about inertia. Not believing it I constructed experiments in a moving car. Throwing an object, and observing how it landed right in my hand, and did not move backwards as my hand ceased to impart impetus upon it, I verified to my satisfaction that it did indeed seem correct, no matter how counter to common sense. Galilean inertia is hardly a new or strange theory. No, physics does not seem 'rational' or 'sensible' or whatever. It just measures out correctly!

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 06:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aristotelian physics is common sense. It's just all wrong as a predictive model.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 06:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. Much of physics and science is quite counterintuitive. Which just goes to show how far common sense gets us. And how experiential (as opposed to experimental) evidence will often lead us astray.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 06:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]