Boxing Day punch up material

by ChrisCook
Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 11:12:15 AM EST

I was bemused by the vehemence of debate which took off in the "Hostility to the Limits of Growth" thread once Deepak Chopra made an appearance.

On the one hand we have the rational scientists, and on the other those who believe science may be extended into the realm of spirituality.

<And that's without even mentioning "Art"!>

I'm going to chuck two things into the Pot. Firstly a very lazy quote from a blog concerning Robert Pirsig's
Metaphysics of Quality

The Metaphysics of Quality (MoQ) is an intellectual ordering of experience; it is a way of organising our knowledge; it is a filing system for the contents of our mind.

It postulates that the fundamental reality is Quality or value. All things come from Quality, and it is Quality that draws all things into being from Quality. All that exists is a form of Quality, and nothing exists without Quality. You could say that Quality is one of the names of God.

The first distinction that is made in understanding Quality is a distinction between Dynamic Quality (DQ) and Static Quality (SQ). DQ cannot be named and cannot be described. It is the cutting edge of experience. It is pre-intellectual awareness. DQ does not fit into any intellectual system; it is the ragged edge at the border of all such systems. DQ is the driving force of evolution, the lure (or: telos) which all of existence pursues.

Sometimes, a DQ driven evolution creates an evolutionary leap. Something new comes into existence. For this new thing of value to be maintained in existence it must 'static latch'; that is, it must be able to generate a particular pattern of value which persists over time, either on a continuous basis or a continuously regenerated basis.

These static latches form the known world. They are the stable forms of Quality.

Static Quality can be named. It can be classified and analysed. The principal classification of SQ is a division into four levels. These levels are discrete and do not overlap. Moreover, all that we presently know can be classified and described according to these four levels, except for DQ itself, which, to repeat, remains outside of all realms of classification.

The four levels are: inorganic, organic, social and intellectual. (For the sake of simplicity the inorganic can be taken to include the quantum level, although perhaps this level could constitute its own 'zeroth' level).

The inorganic level refers to atomic and molecular behaviour. Any object can be viewed as existing at the inorganic level. For example, a rock is a pattern of inorganic value - it's constituent parts value their current relationships more than any other alternative (eg disintegration). In the original flux, before there was either matter or time, Quality was found to lie in a certain structuring of quantum forces. [Here an astro-physicist can fill in the gaps].

The inorganic level is shaped by the laws of physics. These laws are a codification of the value choices made by atoms and molecules.

The organic (or biological) began to develop when a particular molecule made a DQ leap into a different pattern of behaviour. 'Biological evolution can be seen as a process by which weak Dynamic forces at a subatomic level discover stratagems for overcoming huge static inorganic forces at a superatomic level.' The highest quality static latch at the organic level was the molecule DNA. In practical terms this level can be considered as anything which can be described with reference to DNA.

The organic level is shaped by the law of natural selection. This law is a codification of the value choices made by organic patterns of value.

Uniquely (so far as we know), the human species is able to experience two further degrees of static quality.

The social level is the 'subjective customs of groups of people'. This sense of 'social' does not apply to anything non-human. The DQ innovation and static latch which enabled the social level to come into being was the development of language. It is possible that this static latch was supplemented by the further DQ innovation and static latch of ritual, but that is a moot point.

The social level encompasses an enormous variety of human behaviour. It can be understood through the values which govern it. The social level is shaped by laws, customs, mores and religious practices (eg against murder, adultery, theft) which are enforced by soldiers, policemen, parents and priests. These laws are what preserve the existence of social patterns of value from a degradation into the biological patterns of value on which the society depends. The social level is also ordered through the celebrity principle, which articulates the governing social values. Celebrities are those people who exemplify the values of the society, and who gain social rewards (principally wealth, power and fame) as a result.

The intellectual level is 'the level of symbolic social learning', the 'same as mind'. It is the 'collection and manipulation of symbols, created in the brain, that stand for patterns of experience'. The DQ innovation and static latch which enabled the intellectual level to come into being has not been satisfactorily determined.

The intellectual level is shaped by the notion of 'truth', which stands independently of social opinion. There is no link between celebrity and truth. The guardians of the intellectual level are, variously, the members of the Church of Reason. Intellectual 'laws' (eg logic) are a codification of the value choices made by intellectuals.

A culture is a combination of social and intellectual patterns of value. The twentieth century can be understood as a contest between social and intellectual patterns of value.

So: a quick recap on the key terms.
Quality - source of everything (I think of Quality as being one of the names of God, ie it conveys something about God, but is incomplete).
Dynamic and Static Quality - the first division in our understanding. Dynamic Quality (DQ) can't be defined (the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao). Static Quality(SQ) is everything that we can talk about.
The four levels: inorganic, organic, social and intellectual, in order of ascending value.

My heresy is that I don't think level four is `intellectual' - and I think there are all sorts of profound problems with it. I would rechristen the fourth level as `eudaimonic', and understand how it works differently - and I've written a longish essay on why which can be accessed via the moq.org website.

Pirsig's Metaphysics - in my view - asks better questions of Reality than anything else I have seen - albeit my exposure to Metaphysics is limited. There's also an interesting analogy with Maslow's hierarchy of needs here, of course.

Note that Pirsig confines himself to four levels, and the diarist - who is from a Christian tradition - has "issues" with the fourth and "highest" of the levels.

Now it seems to me that it is in this fourth - Intellectual/ Spiritual/ Emotional? - level that the guerrilla warfare is being fought out on ET - and, come to that in many other fora.

The second piece of "background" is personal.

About a dozen years ago - when I was just finishing my stint as a "top dog" in a global futures exchange - my ex went to see "Mary Rose", a psychic/ tarot reader who had been recommended to her by a friend. After this, she pestered me on and off for 6 months or so to go and see her, while I poo-poo'ed the whole thing as a good (well, pretty useless, actually) applied mathematician should.

In the end, I was prevailed upon to do so, just to shut my ex up on the subject, and duly caught the train down to Greenwich. I was surprised that "Mary Rose" appeared quite normal, and after introducing myself, she took a tarot pack and started off on a "reading".

Now, at this remove, I cannot remember all of the reading but a few examples of things she said stay with me:

She referred to places, and to names. She saw "Holland" for instance - was that relevant? Yes, I said, I had just that afternoon booked a flight to see an exchange CEO in Amsterdam (which my ex did not know, and would not have interested her if she had). You'll get what you want there, she said, and I did.

She saw "Robert", who was recently dead, and "Canada". A friend of mine, Bob Purves, formerly of the Winnipeg Exchange (whom my ex did not know and had never met) had very recently died. She said that he was a (Taurean? I think). I had no idea, but when I checked, he was.

She asked if I had a car. Yes. Be careful with the steering and brakes she said.

Within a week my ex had parked the car in our drive, which was at 90 degrees off a steep hill, but left off the brake, and failed to straighten up the steering. The car duly trundled off down the hill and caused a few hundred quids worth of damage...

There were other instances, but the long and short of it is that since meeting "Mary Rose", whom I returned to a few times over the years, I have been convinced that there is another level of "consciousness" or maybe "awareness" in which some people have an ability.

This is of course not susceptible to any sort of "proof" and I don't think it is to be relied upon to the exclusion of more "rational" decision making.

The point of all this is that whatever the "truth" is of our "reality" we have to approach it on the basis of our own experience, and, moreover, IMHO on the basis that the "Either/Or" scalpel of Reason is a deeply imperfect way of approaching whatever it is that is "out there".


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What does "realm of spirituality" mean? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 12:22:50 PM EST
Spiritual:

1...of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.

2...of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature

I suggest you have a read of the "Hostility" thread, where, in case you were unaware, this whole ding dong kicked off following a reference to Deepak Chopra, and Quantum Mechanics, and went downhill from there.

ie the subject of "higher forms" of energy, matters pertaining to "higher levels" of awareness and consciousness.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 12:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And "spirit or soul" means what?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 12:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
lolol - you would be a great Jyana Yogi!
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 12:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Except I (like I assume Colman too) really don't know what it is used to mean. And it's not just the fuzzy language used by those for whom the word has a meaning. I don't understand the categoric  difference made: what they (you) refer to as as 'physical' reality is so varied and at places so strange, how is the 'soul''s strangeness a different strangeness than say that of the core of a neutron star?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 05:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll think about it, but I don't know if my eloquence in English is good enough to respond to this. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 01:53:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't let English be an obstacle. Do it in German.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 04:19:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A simple definition of the material world could be - it is everything you can experience with your senses. Everything you can see, hear, feel, taste or smell. Thus, everything that you do not experience through your senses is spirit - feelings, emotions, thinking, visualizing, etc. Then, if you consider the brain as the hardware or computer, the programmer of the computer would be called the soul. (Sorry Sven :-))

This is so difficult to explain, as our language just is to limited to really convey these "dimensions". Language is linear, but experience is multidimensional. I guess it is for a reason that there is this Chinese saying: "One picture is worth more than a thousand words."  Just try do describe and explain a picture - you will never really be able to convey the same impression that the picture does. Now take inner states, can be distress - have you ever had the situation were you tried to console someone in despair, who was crying and you asked: "What is the matter". Usually word-wise this person will not be able to talk coherently, maybe even talk "gibberish", and still you get the idea of what is going on in this person, despite the words not making any sense. There is definitely something beyond the level of intellect that can be communicated, maybe through music and art.  There are also other states of knowing - however, again in non-verbal form, as they can be experienced in meditation - but as soon as you try to reduce the experience to words, it is loosing its essence, it often doesn't make sense when put in to words. One reason maybe, because we never created words that can carry that kind of information.

P.S. Jyana Yoga is the Yoga of inquiry - asking question to find enlightenment. However, the Jyana Yogi does not use the internet to find the answer; the Jyana Yogi meditates on the questions and looks for the answers "inside". 

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 02:50:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
everything that you do not experience through your senses is spirit

Let me explore this further.

I chose the core of a neutron star as comparison. This is something I can't see, hear, taste or smell. I can't even see it with instrumental aid (e.g. photograph it with a telescope), being hidden by a visible surface. What I can do is use physics theories on what I can observe (e.g. view formulas in books, and computer printouts on observations of radiation from the covering surface and gravity), and make a picture in my mind.

Now my real point is not that this is a visualisation (which you mention as part of the 'soul'), but that what I do with the neutron star's core I also do with at least other people's feelings, emotions, thinking, visualizing. So, are at least other people's 'souls' strange the same way a neutron star's core is, or is there more to it?

(I could go on asking whether the individual makes the same to her own feelings/thoughts/etc. as she does to the neutron star's core, and answer for myself that yes and that that has much to do with what we call consciousness, but this goes too far for what we are discussing at the moment.)

A bit of a sidetrack: what you say about reduction to words, here for subjective experience, might be true the other way: there is a lot more to things people are used to talk about fluently.

The best example is Stalin's statistics ("One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic"): it is easier to syphatize with one anecdotal story than contemplate dry numbers, yet behind those dry numbers express the truth of a million such personal stories. But the same goes for other 'dry' stuff -- compare the explosion of colors and forms on a photograph of Jupiter by a space probe with the white speck of light everyone saw until 400 years ago, and then contemplate what multitude of Truth might be there in a piece of Reality it is simply physically impossible to ever sense with human senses (even if we'd travel there), like the core of a neutron star.

"One picture is worth more than a thousand words."

This is entirely a sidetrack, but worth to pursue. I think sometimes the opposite is true. Some words are used to describe concepts built on hundreds of preceding concepts which have no good visual representation, at least no good visual representations that are meaningful without at least a hundred of those preceding concepts. Say, the spin of atomic nuclei. Or 'neoliberalism'. Or 'karma'!

Pictures are also so meaningful because our brains are built (evolved) to heavily process visual sensory information (e.g., recognise lots of patterns in it). For, say, a dog, one smell might be worth a thousand barks and yells and a million pictures.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 07:43:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thus, everything that you do not experience through your senses is spirit - feelings, emotions, thinking, visualizing, etc.

But this is simply wrong-headed. It presumes, for one thing, that those things are something distinct from physical and chemical interactions in the brain. There is no justification for such an assumption.

Language is linear, but experience is multidimensional.

This sentence is a prime example of why this discussion is so difficult. Linear and multidimensional are words that have meanings. And you're not using them in a way that makes any sense given their ordinary meanings.

While you are, of course, free to employ your own semantics, in which you imbue words with meanings that they do not usually have, it would help the reader to more easily grasp your point if you would please point out which definitions you change and how you change them.

Further, it does not help matters that it is almost invariably highly technical terms like dimensionality or linear that are mangled in this fashion. Taking the above example, you employ the term 'linear' as a contrast to the term 'multi-dimensional' - but the two are not mutually exclusive. The Schrödinger equation is very much a linear equation and it is very much also a multi-dimensional equation (OK, you can construct a one-dimensional version, but that has strictly limited utility). Further, neither of these terms has any natural connection to any description of language with which I am familiar.

I guess it is for a reason that there is this Chinese saying: "One picture is worth more than a thousand words."

... but 999 of them may be lies.

Snark aside, a word can also be worth a thousand pictures. I cannot, for example describe the full meaning that the viewer derives from a picture of an Iraqi child who's been hit by a phosphor grenade. There are simply too many side bands and connotations. However, it is equally true that no amount of pictures can describe the word 'imaginary' - again, there are connotations and impressions that are not easily translatable. And that is true for any migration from one media platform to another. An SMS can't say the same that an e-mail can, which in turn can't say the same thing a radio broadcast can, which in turn can't say the same things a TV broadcast can.

None of this is particularly new or deep insight, however, so I am not entirely sure where you are going with this. Certainly, the loss of information during translation from one medium to another is not to be taken as evidence of 'spiritual higher planes of existence?'

- Jake

"It seems to an outsider that Americans have a deep distrust of their government. Frankly, I don't blame them. I don't trust [their] government either."

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 04:44:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am tired of you calling me wrong-headed, taging my work as "quackry", though I am aware you do not know what I do. It is no use discussing with you, all you are looking for is how you can contradict what doesn't fit in to your box of reality.

I guess I will take a break from ET too, these discussions are just no fun anymore.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 04:58:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey Fran.

That's a shame. Just when we've got them on the run.... ;-)

Jake is a Defender of the Faith, just the same as any other. Except his Faith is in "Science" and the "scientific method".

He is a priest in what Pirsig called the "Church of Reason".

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 05:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fran - I understand your frustration. I am sure you are a most forgiving person, but even saints can be tested ;-)

I've taken breaks too, and they are good for peace of mind. But I always return because I have such good friends here to share with.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 05:22:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Say it aint so Fran!

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 05:54:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm taking a break - I'm not leaving. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 06:09:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
depends how long the break is, If its too long then there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 06:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would sadden me. I can certainly understand why anyone would take a break from discussions of metaphysics - but I would hope that disagreements of philosophy would not result in fractured political communities.

Not so very long ago, people remarked on this blog that philosophical disagreements would be used (and have been used) to drive in wedges between natural allies. It would be a sad irony if we were to drive in such wedges ourselves.

In other words, please consider this an apology for any insinuations of 'quackery' or somesuch in your practice.

- Jake

"It seems to an outsider that Americans have a deep distrust of their government. Frankly, I don't blame them. I don't trust [their] government either."

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 06:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Jake!

And I do admit I am currently extra touchy - unfortunately I have been confronted over the last weeks, lets say with the shadow side of conventional medicine, and have been able to see some of the good stuff from the woo woo side. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 12:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is YOU who must stay to add value here, not the pseudo-science hammers, nor the other thread´s gnome gang!  (That was some spectacle for a new member welcome! Yikes!)  You are a higher-level gnome and some of us here know there is nobody blinder than those who refuse to see.  Some may actually evolve in a few decades. :O)

This disingenious, intellectual dishonesty/_ and exceptionalism are the ET equivalent of the eco-no-mist.  Self-locked into quadrant 17, level B, having an ´on-my-terms-only´, puerile tantrum and refusing to come out.  Newborn ´scientists´, as dangerous, authoritarian and myopic as newborn christians.  Yet, you meet them and they are pretty full people!  It´s an amazingly woowoo paradox, to use their terminology.

I will try to read below this and control myself, but if the ignorant and HURTFUL contempt continues, I´ll figure something else out.

Hope you give yourself credit and a good treat, then, come back soon.  

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 11:29:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't hear contempt in your own voice?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 11:37:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To be perfectly frank (yeah, I'm sure you appreciate it...) I hear contempt in the voices of almost everyone in these threads.  I'll include myself in that, even though I did -and continue to- suggest everyone could be a bit more humble.  

I'm not entirely sure what has provoked it, or how much of it is a defensiveness-projection thing, but if we had a smug-o-meter handy right now, the needle would be off the charts.  At this point I've become too annoyed with everyone to care what their original stance was.  See, now I am being smug...  This diary is a smug-magnet.  I suggest everyone slowly back away from it.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 11:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I suggested that in the last thread, for all the good it did.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 11:55:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for you support, metavision. But I have to say, I am in NO WAY

metavision:

a higher-level gnome

I do have quite a bit of weaknesses and shadows. And the other FP's are great people, and I really appreciate being in the same team with them. (okay, they might have some weaknesses too! At least I hope so.)

I would appreciate if we all could just take a deep breath, exhale and take a step back and start all over with each other. Let's stop this he did, she did - lets let it be.

Isn't Christmas supposed to be the time of love and forgiveness. Let's practice that! :-D

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 12:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Talk about having a good "feel" for situations... Things had calmed down, apologies have been made, hurtful words have stopped, and you give us this?


the pseudo-science hammers


gnome gang


disingenious, intellectual dishonesty/_ and exceptionalism


Newborn ´scientists´, as dangerous, authoritarian and myopic as newborn christians

I'm just sorry you've been wasting so much time reading us.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 12:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But this is simply wrong-headed. It presumes, for one thing, that those things are something distinct from physical and chemical interactions in the brain. There is no justification for such an assumption.

This is an overly simplistic reductionist view of what was being said, it's like a  paint-by numbers version of the mona lisa. Everything has to fit together as a subsetof my own model of how the world works. The fact that someone has a different language to describe experience is seen as irrelevent or wrong headead.

None of this is particularly new or deep insight, however, so I am not entirely sure where you are going with this.

If it isn't particularly a new or deep insight, why are you having trouble working out where they are going with this, surely it should be obvious?

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 06:11:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is an overly simplistic reductionist view of what was being said, it's like a  paint-by numbers version of the mona lisa. Everything has to fit together as a subsetof my own model of how the world works. The fact that someone has a different language to describe experience is seen as irrelevent or wrong headead.

The problem is not that someone else is using a different language. The problem is that they are using the same language, but clearly not the same semantics. When a laundry list of perfectly biological functions is offered up as evidence of spirituality, I get sceptical. But I will admit - and apologise for the fact - that my language was intemperate.

If it isn't particularly a new or deep insight, why are you having trouble working out where they are going with this, surely it should be obvious?

No, it is not obvious, because it looks like these very much ordinary and commonly accepted facts are being used to argue in favour of a conclusion that does not seem to me to follow from those facts.

- Jake

"It seems to an outsider that Americans have a deep distrust of their government. Frankly, I don't blame them. I don't trust [their] government either."

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 07:02:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll try to put your second point (linear and dimensions) a different way, maybe it will be perceived as less hostile.

Fran, with 'linear', you surely meant is that speech has a one-dimensional progression, with words (and voices within words) following upon each other. Now the difficulty is less that what words are to describe is multi-dimensional, given that single words can describe three-dimensional objects ("duck") or even four-dimensional ones ("history"), but that what is to be described may branch out and loop back, have a million nodes, and you have to string it all up on a single thread. (While what you really meant goes beyond that I presume: the problem of describing things and words with no good handy words for it.)

Now while I have to disagree with JakeS on 'linear' ('linear' is not just a mathematical term, it also has a general meaning of 'line-like', and used so in many fields; say just the other day I mentioned Linear Pottery Culture) there is the thing that we see a lot of technical terms used loosely, improperly, or senselessly. In this instance, I deduced what you (Fran) meant from the context and my prior awareness of this problem with language, and not from the words you used.

However, when reading someone trying to describe a concept new to me, what's more trying to introduce a new philosophy of everything, such loose use of technical terminology is an insurmountable obstacle. (And an annoyance.) The text will not make sense. Or, one will get the impression of shifting images, and from that of the incoherent thinking of the author. Or, one will guess that the author himself doesn't understand at least he technical terms he uses, or worse, not even what he means to say.

'Dimension', 'energy' and 'linear' are among the most misused terms. So we with a technical education have our triggers, to explain JakeS's reaction.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:34:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
'Dimension', 'energy' and 'linear' are among the most misappropriated terms, perhaps.  Could they belong to ´the people´?  Have they been patented by ´science´ exclusively, or could they have come from philosophy, for example?  (No. I won´t look it up. (;)

Since all people are more-than just an education and free to use language, there should be no limit to what terms anyone here can use.  After all, rotten oil companies and the msm misappropriate the terms every minute of our lives and ´everyone´ here understands what they mean.

P.S. to DoDo:
It feels bad that the gnomes on the previous thread did not extend the courtesy of reading or trying to understand a new poster, but Jake S. was goaded on and now it´s being helped out, after insulting Fran and posting a far-from-genuine apology.  Not fair, not honorable.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 12:05:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
misappropriated terms, perhaps.  Could they belong to ´the people´?

This would be an interesting subject for discussion, but not in your current emotional state as expressed by your several recent comments in this thread. Like poemless, I kindly ask you to stand back a bit, like many others managed earlier today.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 01:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, male doctor.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._
by metavision on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who is this "new poster"? If you mean emilmoller, he has been a member here since a year ago -- six months before Jake S, by the way.


When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 03:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, cool, Yjana Yoga is Socrates' mayeutics, then.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 04:20:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not presume to know.

I guess it is whatever it is that makes you who you are.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 12:45:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And this is where the conversation breaks down: we don't share a concept to talk about here. You've strayed into religion.

I guess it is whatever it is that makes you who you are.

I could, I suppose, point out that the soul is therefore the result of a complex collection of physical events that led to me being who and what I am (except that "I" is a trick my mind plays on me (heh)) and is entirely within the realm of science. This doesn't seem to be what people mean by soul though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 12:57:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
You've strayed into religion

What do you mean by religion?

For me religion and spirituality are not the same.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 01:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's the difference, apart from a more organised superstructure?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 03:16:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For me religion is something on the outside, it is a tribal phenomenon - something shared with others. It also is herachical - there is a pontifex, a bridgebuilder, somebody who tells you what "that" means, and says, and is.

Spiritual is inside, personal, no translators - it is more independent. You find your own "truth" instead of being told what that truth is. And most of all it leads to a increasing state of peace and being.

Ah, hope it makes sense, word are so limiting. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 03:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that people seek spiritual leaders and you only need one person to be willing to exchange spiritual advice in exchange for social status and then it's all downhill from there.

Refer to Bob Altemeyer's writing about the Authoritarians (followers) and the Double Highs (gurus).

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 03:32:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, poor grasp of language or no, you have exactly expressed the essense of it.

Spirituality is a wonderful impulse within humans, it is the same thing that creates inquisitiveness, quest,humility and wonder. It is the very best part of us

I dislike, no, hate is closer; I hate religion because, to me, it is an attempt to harness the individual's natural spirituality for base political purposes. From what I have read, the actual expressed philosophies of various prophets such as Jesus, Mohammed, buddha are wonderful paths to better personhood. But their codification into religions nd the necessary bundling of "explanations, rules and regulations on top has created entities that would repel the originators. You cannot argue with God, you cannot claim immorality in divine law. Yet it is man made abomination.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:32:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
brilliant

Lobbyists are people too...
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 01:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
every word you say here is the stone truth.

thanks for saying it so well...

Lobbyists are people too...

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 01:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that this is where the "Subject/Object" Metaphysics breaks down, actually, in the absence of the language to "define" what we are talking about.

That is where I find Pirsig's metaphysics useful in terms of the ability to look at things on the basis of a continuum of experience.

And now he began to see for the first time the unbelievable magnitude of what man, when he gained power to understand and rule the world in terms of dialectic truths, had lost.

He had built empires of scientific capability to manipulate the phenomena of nature into enormous manifestations of his own dreams of power and wealth-but for this he had exchanged an empire of understanding of equal magnitude: an understanding of what it is to be a part of the world, and not an enemy of it.

I use the example of Mary Rose not to show that my experience "proves" anything, but that it convinced a pretty hard case like me that there is more to reality than may be "subjectively" or "objectively" dissected, tested and measured.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 01:17:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what Persig's metaphysics is supposed to be, but to me it looks like warmed-over Platonic dualism with a helping of rose-tinted history.

I don't think you can find a single historical culture that viewed itself as 'part of the world, and not an enemy of it.' Most of the rituals - and all of the technology - of those ancient cultures revolves around bending nature to the will of humans, either directly or through divine intercession. The illusion of the 'noble savage' who lives in harmony with nature is one of the more enduring myths of our culture, but it has little basis in fact.

We are not so different from those 'savages' in our desire to control nature. We're just a lot better at it.

- Jake

"It seems to an outsider that Americans have a deep distrust of their government. Frankly, I don't blame them. I don't trust [their] government either."

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 03:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is Dualism - or "Subject/Object Metaphysics" - that Pirsig is taking on, as I see it.

His is essentially a Non-Dualist approach.

Let's look at the land, for instance.

Most native peoples cannot even conceive that anyone could "own" it. To that extent they see themselves as part of their environment.

I draw upon Pirsig's approach to "Quality" to provide an explanation - to myself, if to no-one else - in relation to "Value" (which I believe exists in Static and Dynamic forms) and in particular the relationships of "Property" and "Money", which we have been brain-washed into thinking of as "Objects".

Without consideration of the metaphysical basis of Economics ("the Physics of Value", as I see it) we cannot construct an Economics that addresses the Reality we daily experience.

Pirsig's identification of the relationship - and not just the subject and object - is IMHO ground-breaking. It takes us into the "both/and" space which is not "either/or".

Up here in Scotland they seem to "get" this - it's in that "uncertain" space of their "Not Proven" verdict between the certainties of "Guilty" and "Not Guilty".

Knowledge based value and Intellectual Property

was my ramble through the subject at Lancaster University a couple of years ago...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 05:52:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It postulates that the fundamental reality is Quality or value. All things come from Quality, and it is Quality that draws all things into being from Quality. All that exists is a form of Quality, and nothing exists without Quality. You could say that Quality is one of the names of God.

This is the central axiom of Pirsig's metaphysics, right? If so, then he is indeed practising Platonic dualism: Postulating an existence of qualia as something distinct from physical reality. Discussions of angels and pinheads then ensue.

The identification of the importance of relationships is neither new nor groundbreaking, nor does that insight benefit from being couched in metaphysical claptrap.

- Jake

"It seems to an outsider that Americans have a deep distrust of their government. Frankly, I don't blame them. I don't trust [their] government either."

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 04:13:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You say (my highlights)

Postulating an existence of qualia as something distinct from physical reality

But the quote actually was (my highlight again)

It postulates that the fundamental reality is Quality or value.

Nothing dual about that.

The way I read Pirsig, he says that Quality is all there is: it's not distinct from anything: it is anything and everything ie Reality.

You won't find anything resembling "claptrap" in Pirsig's books. You may disagree with what he says, but you shouldn't have any difficulty with the way that he says it.

How other people describe what Pirsig says is up to them, and people often descend into "claptrap": if only everyone were as clear as you, Jake.

But I think you should avoid using "metaphysical" almost as a term of abuse, a bit like the use of "liberal" by political opponents as a pejorative term. What is needed is a good dose of Metaphysics IMHO: we really need to look askance at the assumptions that underpin what passes for our thought.

If anyone else pre-dated Pirsig in his conception of an alternative metaphysics to the conventional post-Greek "subject/object" metaphysics, then please direct me to him or her.

As far as I can see Pirsig's is entirely original thinking, and original thinking is rare. This is once in a thousand years stuff.

But since it brings into question the premises underpinning pretty much the entire academic edifice constructed in the couple of thousand years it's no surprise it doesn't exactly receive an enthusiastic reception...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 04:49:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way I read Pirsig, he says that Quality is all there is: it's not distinct from anything: it is anything and everything ie Reality.

Oh. My mistake then. But if Quality is simply physical reality, then why isn't he just saying that?

But I think you should avoid using "metaphysical" almost as a term of abuse, a bit like the use of "liberal" by political opponents as a pejorative term. What is needed is a good dose of Metaphysics IMHO: we really need to look askance at the assumptions that underpin what passes for our thought.

Looking at assumptions is good and right, but I fail to see what metaphysics has to offer as anything other than an intellectual exercise. If it does not make testable statements, then how can it educate our decisionmaking? And if it does make testable predictions, then how is it different from methodological naturalism?

If anyone else pre-dated Pirsig in his conception of an alternative metaphysics to the conventional post-Greek "subject/object" metaphysics, then please direct me to him or her.

Since I don't know how old Pirsig's writings are, and since I apparently don't understand what they're about, I think I'll retract the statement that he does not make original claims...

As far as I can see Pirsig's is entirely original thinking, and original thinking is rare. This is once in a thousand years stuff.

But since it brings into question the premises underpinning pretty much the entire academic edifice constructed in the couple of thousand years it's no surprise it doesn't exactly receive an enthusiastic reception...

... but claims of an impending paradigm shift raise little red flags in my mind.

- Jake

"It seems to an outsider that Americans have a deep distrust of their government. Frankly, I don't blame them. I don't trust [their] government either."

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 06:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it does not make testable statements, then how can it educate our decision making?

I think that what we have to do is to look again at the nature of tests. I really don't know enough about this area, but my intuition is that this  Metaphysics of Quality/Value may open up new thinking in relational logic and conceptual frameworks. My problem is that I find abstraction very difficult to cope with intellectually.

... but claims of an impending paradigm shift raise little red flags in my mind.

And rightly so, but such is the position in which we find ourselves, IMHO.

In particular, the legal concepts of "absolute" property rights are faulty and "broken". We are used to either absolute, infinite "ownership" eg freehold land, shareholder "Equity" or absolute, temporary "use" for a finite duration eg leasehold land, and debt.

These Newtonian assumptions of absolutes are not good enough. They do not explain the ability to utilise assets/Value for an indefinite period which arises from the use of the legal concept I call an "Open" Corporate for the encapsulation of property rights.

I have found in Pirsig's MoQ an approach that allowed me to develop a conceptual framework within which to analyse - at least to my own satisfaction - value events/transactions and their role in economic interaction.

The reason this is important is that there is a "Telluric" paradigm shift going on IMHO based upon the connectivity of the Internet, and it is only defective legal protocols - the "Semantic Web" - that are holding us back.

My thesis is that consensual partnership based solutions are optimal, and the proof of that pudding is in the eating. If I am right in that thesis, then I am curious as to why it should be so.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My thesis is that consensual partnership based solutions are optimal, and the proof of that pudding is in the eating. If I am right in that thesis, then I am curious as to why it should be so.

i believe that to be axiomatic, so it may not have a 'why'.

does asking 'why not?' help?

why does it need male and female genetic material to create human life?

or should i say 'did'?

the world as one big pulsing consensual partnership sure sounds optimal to me....

if the proof is in the eating, then i can say from experience that when you get a bunch of people together for a project and it goes well, everyone goes home feeling good, bellies full of pudding.

ET is a group project, and induces that sort of satisfaction, if mostly intellectually.

blogging is a new way of relating which creates a forum which in meatspace would need highly unusual levels of respectful discipline and lack of interruption, no one interjecting, each with the freedom to say until the end what one had to say.

and then take as much time as necessary to peruse and reply.

so it's pulling communication out of us that possibly has had no outlet up to now.

 i should bear that in mind more, when glitches occur, and flameouts follow.

you knew this was going to get warm, this debate, chris, calling it a punch-up in advance...

and it has been, because this stuff goes deep, very difficult to keep emotions down to lukewarm when discussing concepts like soul.

i see it as lancing a boil, what you did.

not the lounging emperor watching the blood sports below, but peacemaker, through somewhat shamanically allowing passionate emotions space to erupt and spend themselves, bouncing pixels against each other, instead of fur flying and blood on the walls, which is all to often the meatspace outcome when matters of 'faith' are provocatively brought out of hiding, like lions out of their catacomb cages.

can't wait for the next one on art... though i imagine it will be much less emotional...art claims no ticket to houri heaven in the afterlife, more like a pine box and a posthumous price at sotheby's.

though it can save souls... prolly left ole-time religion in the dust in that sense.

unless art is your religion! rumi's poetry comes to mind...

Lobbyists are people too...

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 01:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am pained to post this after metavision plastering the thread full of accusations against you and "the gnomes", but I am really returning to finish my stuff here after a deviation into the Bhutto dead thread.

JakeS, I think the one point where I think you clearly mis-read rg's top-level comment really applies to you. Writing "being couched in metaphysical claptrap" might be what you honestly think, still, it won't generate anything positive in a discussion with ETers who believe in the meaningfulness of that metaphysical claptrap. It may be the right language for an esoterics or sceptics web forum or USENET newsgroup with a rawer tone and higher traffic with more hit-and-run posters, who to boot are prepared to take some fire on both sides, but minting words and asking questions should work better here.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 01:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Repeated insulting of what he knows not.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._
by metavision on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 12:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am politely requesting that you stop this.  It's accomplishing nothing.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 12:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Although my brain doesn't do deep thoughts like philosophy or the stuff about Deepak Chopra (I still havne't found the pie-fight in that thread), I'm not hostile to the idea that there is stuff out there that science has, as yet, no ability to measure or theorize.

I speak as a somebody who has done enough dowsing in my life to know it's real and concrete. There ain't no theory for it, except some kinda odd ones about mineral energies, so all science can do is discount it and attempt to debunk it. Yet, despite all that, most water and gas companies train their guys in dowsing cos it's quicker and cheaper (and often more reliable) than the expensive gizmoes avilable).

And I have had other, more out-there experiences that tell me that science doesn't yet know enough to be as emphatic as it is that there are no such phenomena. After all, acupuncture works and western medicine has only just begun to scratch the surface of how it might work. And materials scientists will tell you all about the crystallography of water and water moemory, yet homeopathy is just so much hoo-ey (apparently).

Too much of this derision is mere guild protection.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 01:19:10 PM EST
There's a distinction between derision as guild protection - which happens within science as well as outside it, accepting the stories put forward to explain phenomena and accepting the stories which don't even explain any phenomena.

So dowsing falls into the category of things that seem to work for reasons we don't understand: you could postulate that we are sensitive to electro-magnetic or gravitational fields for instance. Most people never learn to use their peripheral vision properly so it doesn't seem unlikely that almost no-one would learn to use an esoteric sense like that. It's within the realm of phenomena that might need explaining, but stories about how it works that invoked (as a random example since I don't know what the standard stories are in this case) fairies pulling on the end of the stick don't really deserve much time spent on them.

Medical stuff is complicated since I'm reasonably sure that any practice that reduces the stress on the system improves clinical outcomes either passively - through the placebo effect - or possibly even actively by using the mind to redirect resources or release resources to where they're needed through tricks. As I understand it the standard story about homeopathy works isn't based in anything scientific, which is why homeopathy is such an easy target for debunkers.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 07:14:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a distinction between derision as guild protection - which happens within science as well as outside it, accepting the stories put forward to explain phenomena and accepting the stories which don't even explain any phenomena.

Oh yea, I understand that, but I worry sometimes that a lot of the debunkers don't. F'rinstance I've never really paid attention to any of the theories of how dowsing works for the simple reason that I know nobody knows (but I've never heard the one about fairies). And there are way too many kooks and nutjobs floating around to want to give any credence to anything they say. Sadly the scientists tend to look for the kooks to give them the debunking ammunition rather than look at the evidence.

So there are too many allegedly "rational" people who will discount the real, repeatable & demonstrable phenomena of dowsing, because they dislike the idea that there is stuff that cannot be incorporated into the current ideology of science. Plus, I'll grant you, that you can take dowsing into other, less verifiable or esoteric places, which really strain the credulity of the strictly "rational". So they lump it all into one place called the round file called rubbish, cos it's easier.

Kinda like the theory for Ice-Age civilisations that were drowned when sea levels rose and the only artefact of that period to have survived was the Sphinx. I'm quite happy to accept that because it's plausible and there is undersea evidence to suppport it. What I and most people are not prepared to accept are the ravings of people such as Graham Hancock about ancient wisdom and apes from Mars which unfortunately seem currently intimately involved with any discussion of the subject.

Materials scientists will tell you that the standard story about homeopathy makes sense to them. Plus, as you can get veterinary homeopathic practitioners who create genuine improvments in animals not susceptible to the placebo effect, I'd suggest it's worth looking at.

And acupuncture works. I'm sorry but we can measure it's affect, it's just that western science has no theory for it and so can't understand it. It's as if stone age man could wish thuderstorms to not exist cos they didn't understand them. Not having a theory for a phenomenon suggest you should examine it, not pretend it's not there.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:16:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but I've never heard the one about fairies

Obviously I made that one up.

So there are too many allegedly "rational" people who will discount the real, repeatable & demonstrable phenomena of dowsing, because they dislike the idea that there is stuff that cannot be incorporated into the current ideology of science.

That's just silly.

Materials scientists will tell you that the standard story about homeopathy makes sense to them.

I've never heard that? I'm not sure that animals aren't subject to the placebo effect either: that relies on some assumptions about the mechanism that I'm not sure are justified.

And acupuncture works.

Did I say it didn't? I've never tried it because I'm not a fan of needles and I've never felt a need. As I understand it there's a fair amount of conventional pharmaceutical treatments where we don't understand the mechanism.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:22:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So there are too many allegedly "rational" people who will discount the real, repeatable & demonstrable phenomena of dowsing, because they dislike the idea that there is stuff that cannot be incorporated into the current ideology of science.

That's just silly.

Then you haven't met the dogmatic denialists I have when I've tried to discuss the subject of dowsing. They may be silly, but reporting their attitudes is not.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:58:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, I meant they were silly.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 08:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have experienced acupuncture several times, and I don't really know what it did - but it did something. My feedback apparatus told me something had changed. I only underwent these 'treatments' because I wanted to experience it, not for any ailment in particular. I'm quite a fan of 'wanting to know what it feels like', providing it is in a trustworthy environment of 'experts', and that I have availed myself of the possibilities for failure.

I like to think that any inexplicable pheomenon or construct that has been around for thousands of years has some value which we might not yet understand or have erased from our culture. I don't believe in dowsers, but I am not prepared to dismiss dowsing. Same for many other oddities - it is too easy to dismiss practitioners, but often much harder to dismiss the practice, especially if it has been around for thousands of years. Presumably they indicate some usefulness to societies, even if they are placebo effects or other processing effects on the conscious or subconscious.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 09:09:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Materials scientists will tell you that the standard story about homeopathy makes sense to them.

I've never heard that?

'Homeophobia' must not be tolerated

A major bugaboo for "homeophobes" is the concept that a solution where the solute is extremely diluted (beyond Avogadro's number) absolutely cannot, they believe, be any different from the original solvent. Hence homeopathy must be a fraud. This has been the anti-homeopathy crowd's trump card for more than 100 years.

But let us turn to scientists who specialise in water's properties. Prof Martin Chaplin of London's South Bank University, a leading expert on the (molecular) structure of water, says: "Too often the final argument used against the memory of water concept is simply 'I don't believe it' ... Such unscientific rhetoric is heard from the otherwise sensible scientists, with a narrow view of the subject and without any examination or appreciation of the full body of evidence, and reflects badly on them."

As it happens, there is agreement among all those who have studied liquid water that it is, in fact, the critics, who are totally wrong.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 09:35:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that seems to be one scientist with an agenda and another who is quoted here as saying that:
It follows that simply proving that water does have a memory does not prove that homeopathic medicines work.

I don't get the feeling from that or reading the comment thread that there is a lot of acceptance of the point of view  the water memory could explain homeopathy among material scientists.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 09:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Put it this way: if i were a homeopath I'd be a lot more comfortable selling it by saying that my experience is that it has a good success rate than I would talking about water memory or other mechanisms.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 09:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So a misquote, too. There is also the graphite to diamonds whopper. The short timescale of structures in water and the diamonds thing were noted in several comments at the Guardian.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 10:34:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This thread has much more technical commentary.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 11:22:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you read the full article and then the comments, it becomes less convincing.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 10:22:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
he theory for Ice-Age civilisations that were drowned when sea levels rose and the only artefact of that period to have survived was the Sphinx. I'm quite happy to accept that because it's plausible and there is undersea evidence to suppport it.

Really? Where? Do you mean that Japanese rock formation?

I also think that while the traces of a civilisation within 20,000 years going unnoticed is entirely possible, what is implausible is traces of preceding steps going unnoticed: e.g., there would be agriculture and that would spread out, there would be population explosion and we'd notice that in the archeological as well as genetic record, there would be migration on different scales and we'd have genetic traces of that.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 11:08:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Mary Rose should apply for the Million Dollar, then. As long as no one wins this price, I'm assuming they're all just con artists. And I'm not sure if I should say this (as I don't know much about him), but IMHO, Deepak Chopra is full of shit.

Nonetheless, I respect other opinions on this matter. Any real evidence would be nice.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 02:09:19 PM EST
great diary, chris, very interesting.

isn't it revealing that those who 'believe' find no threat from, and even would welcome science 'proving' what the former 'know', (or think they know?

the same openmindedness seems to be conspicuously lacking on the other side.

bit like nudism that way...

there is a long tradition of silence about occult perception, 'to dare, to will, to know, and to keep silent' is still the motto of many hermeticists, for good reason, as was made so obvious in the referred-to thread.

it's literally like two different animals trying to talk, honks on one side, quacks(!) on the other...

proselysis is so pointless it's hilarious...

personally, as a believer, i suspect everyone is a believer at heart and just don't know it, and cynicism is 'educated' , as in 'encrusted' into the child's psyche, sometimes for worthy reasons.

does it hurt children to believe in santa claus?

disclaimer: i don't, lol...

so your kids believe in santa claus, are you going to yell at them not to be so silly, depriving them of something that brings them pleasure?

maybe some parents, convinced that they want their children to be 'reality-based' actually do this, but i hope not, and i think most would agree with me that it would be a violence.

so what's the difference with spirituality?

no one denies the terrible harvest of pain wrongly iterated religious belief has wreaked through history, no one denies that people are gulled by the unscrupulous and need to develop a healthy level of skepticism to survive, these facts make some folks develop a policeman mentality when it come to belief systems they don't understand.

i can pray to the spaghetti monster and feel saucy solace, if it helps me through the dark night of the soul, (located deep in the gastric area), so frickin what?

as long as i don't hurt anyone, who gives a toss?

if i keep you awake banging my drum trying to convince you to buy into my system, then that's abuse, and if charlatans make statements that deserve to be challenged, or have agendas that need to be called out, fine, busting that is good and necessary...thereby the benefit of a secular society, protecting the peace and quiet necessary for progress, prosperity, the freedom to prostrate yourself in front of clythlu however you spell 'im and what have you...

it is charmingly metaphoric how on this nuts-and-bolts blog, this issue keeps on wiggling out from under the rug...

it makes me giggle...

the thing is, once i flew out of that mental box that made me want double-blind proof for everything, i wonder why we stay in there so long, it feels like a relief to me, knowing (there's that word again!) that i can have faith without insisting on scientific truth, and not have to explain it, sell it, use it to feather my nest, or whip ignorant people into war with it.

letting doubt win seems small-minded, it's so fear-based and sterile.

faith has chosen to be... just there, (here!) and it changes everything.

and i'm grateful. i wouldn't try to live without it, for any price, the very idea is risible.

faith makes people happier, more resistant to tragedy, and opens up inner worlds as infinitely deep and interesting as outer space.

no one obliges anyone, no one can decide for you, and no one can preview when the option of living without it may be taken away, or if ever.

if your faith in science or whatever enables you to go to your death in tranquillity, then you have discovered a faith of your own that works.

good for you! tell me how it nourishes you, i won't promise to believe you, in fact i might walk away after 10 seconds if it isn't telling me anything new, or i might stay and listen, infuse some of it into my own if it does.

i like religions like taoism, which love nature, and teach one to develop inner strength through meditation and good behaviour to our fellow sentient humans.

that should be the basis for any religion, all the fancy temples are useless superstructure, the devil's work, if you like...

atheism is perfectly respectable and understandable, given the crappy job religions have done representing divinity, but while it may suit a few, the spiritual urge for union with something greater afflicts or enhances a vast proportion of us.

if we don't give our children the space and ideas for this, they are much more likely to seek refuge with your rev.mooneytoons et al.

sneezing at believers proves nothing, just as a simple profession of what i believe does nothing...it just is.

and when science catches up and explains dowsing or the many other possible cracks in the materialist matrix, we who believed before it was 'proven' will not crow.

it never was personal, after all, right?

right?

for the concept of time to have validity, there needs to be resistance even to such self evident events as evolution and enlightenment.

(not trying to sound like a 'real' physicist here, promise!)

some draw the card of resistance, some of the most intelligent, it makes for a better plot...

i had happily let go of this blog ever treading into 'hallowed ground', there's gazillions of other websites if that's what i needed.

i liked emil's experiment though, conditions weren't favourable, too
many crosswinds...

check out this silly belief- it was karma that brought the black death to europe because nothing pisses off god more than people using his name to justify killing...

stupid, right?

maybe...

back to graphs and windmills, just as spiritual as talmuds and bibles and korans and mediums and astrology, if your picture stretches big enough.

till the next rug-wiggle!

if i understood sven right it's just neurons colliding anyway, lol.

Lobbyists are people too...

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 03:12:54 PM EST
Melo - very inspiring! Better said cumulatively than any of my comments.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 04:39:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well thankyou great vizier, even if i beg to differ from your conclusion...

Lobbyists are people too...
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 05:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You wrote, as always, from the heart. I am much more of a weasel, as Migu fairly pointed out. I use words every day to distort people's realities. That is what people pay me for.

But, in one of those paradoxes that I so enjoy, I never use the 'science' of marketing or advertising (the polled analysis of what people say they believe or want), preferring instead to propose my own global beliefs in terms that I think the audience will acccept as their own. "What you think you have discovered for yourself is far more powerful than that which you are told"

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 06:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am much more of a weasel, as Migu fairly pointed out. I use words every day to distort people's realities. That is what people pay me for.

oh i have an 'inner weasel' alright.

the only chance i have of keeping it mellow is having antennas up.

lying for money is written right into my dna, and i decide to break that chain.

daily...

hello, i'm melo...a born liar...in constant recovery till i die....

this place does its bit to keep me honest

thanks, truth-tellers!

Lobbyists are people too...

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Dec 26th, 2007 at 07:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
melo:

does it hurt children to believe in santa claus?

disclaimer: i don't, lol...

so your kids believe in santa claus, are you going to yell at them not to be so silly, deprivi