European Tribune

ET Film Blog- Organizational Diary. [3 UPDATES]

by LEP
Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 02:24:33 PM EST

On last evening's open thread  I asked if anyone would be interested in participating in a film discussion group on an occasional basis, perhaps every two months. Several ET'ers indicated they are interested; LEP, Ted Welch, the stormy present, Fran, Colman, melo, ceebs, Wife of Bath, Toby's Mom, Elco B, Sven, and poemless. I expect several more will be interested.

So, I think we should plan for the first Film Blog which would be held on Friday, Feb.8th. I recommend Friday-Saturday because people may have more time for this pursuit on those days. Also, we could cancel the Photography Blog on those days since many of the participants are the same.

If you live in America or in England getting films from companies like Netflix appear to be very easy to do. Or if you live in a big city in Europe chances are the Mediatek branch of the public library will have what you need. There is also the possibility of mailing films around if your country has a good postal service as we do in France.

The stormy present , who lives in Egypt is already arranging to import the two films we will discuss in the first Film Blog, "Cabaret" and The Serpent's Egg."
I have no intention to be "the decider" for the Film Blog so in the future we can share this duty or do it on a collective basis on ET. If everyone wants me to I can continue to choose the films but my preference is for the older classics rather than more recent films so other voices might be worthwhile.

In any event we should try to make up the program for the year so that the participants can have plenty of time to find and watch the films.

I chose the first two films because they both take place in pre-Nazi Germany, one in 1923 and the other in 1931 and this era interests most of us. Most people have seen "Cabaret" but not the Serpent's Egg by Bergman. Warning: it is a very hard film. Bergman called it his "horror film."

So I wont say any more right now except that everything I have said can be changed by consensus. I would appreciate any comments.
Update [2007-12-4 5:1:42 by LEP]: Many people, aside from those listed above have shown interest in the film blog. So, I wont add any more names; just consider the blog as an open house. Sven has agreed to moderate the second blog which will be on March 14. Hopefully, he will announce the films he has chosen in the very near future. [UPDATE 2] We have organized very quickly. Here's the schedule of "moderators" through July, 2008: Feb. 8th LEP; March 14th Sven; April 18th Ted W.; May 16th poemless; June 13th Migeru; July 18th ceebs; Dates may be subject to slight modifications but the discussions will always be held on Friday and Saturday. Watch for future diaries listing the films to be discussed. [UPDATE 3] If everything goes very smoothly we can add additional film blogs in between the scheduled ones.


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First, let me say that it's a very good idea and if I had anything to say about the 2 movies you proposed, I wouldn't hesitate a second. Unfortunately for Cabaret I hate musicals (yeah, I know calling it a mere musical is like saying that War and Peace is "about Russia"), and I have not seen the Serpent's Egg as I was probably too young when it was released. Maybe next week.

Le caoutchouc serait un matériau très précieux, n'était son élasticité qui le rend impropre à tant d'usages.- A.Allais
by armadillos (armadillo2024 (at) free (dotto) fr) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 03:06:42 PM EST
Count me in.
I expect cultural differences between ET'ers will lead to flame wars clarifying discussions :-))

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 03:39:18 PM EST
Count me in too, of course.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:10:03 PM EST
Su-per!  Plus we have Sven, a filmmaker, and me, someone with an idiot film degree.  I'm looking forward to this.  

On the choosing of films.  I suggest either

  1. Everyone interested signs up to moderate a diary, and each moderator can pick the film of their choice.  

  2. The same person is in charge each time, but takes a vote to see which film to do next.

2 months?  Are films really that hard to get ahold of over there?  Well...

Cabaret freaked me out.  Have never heard of Serpeant's egg.  But I'm game.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:12:50 PM EST
Films about Nazi Germany?  Uh, yes.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaking only for myself, of course.  No idea what the situation is in Europe.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Pre" Nazi Germany. In my opinion "The Serpent's Egg" (I don't remember "Cabaret" too well) gives one an insight why we ended up with "Nazi" Germany 10 year's later.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:12:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there are Nazis in Cabaret....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But not yet in power, if I am not mistaken.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.  Cabaret is based on the writings of Christopher Isherwood who arrived in Berlin in 1931 - IIRC.


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 09:53:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm...  Would it be weird to pick a topic and discuss that instead of a film or two in particular?  "Weimar & Nazi Germany."  For example.  That might be too broad...  but it would allow a lot more people to participate.  Different movies, but shared themes, etc.  Or French New Wave.  Or pic one director.  I'd be more than happy to do a Russian (or German, Czech, Italian...) Cinema diary.  Or experimental film, that would be FUN.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My advice is watch the films and let the discussion lead where it may. That's why it's important to choose the films well.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:47:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Upon further reflection I think you have a good idea. You might want to pick a category but you would still need to choose a few suitable films representative of that category, to be discussed, as a starting off point.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:14:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll back you on 'East Block' and Soviet cinema, Poemless.

Kosintzev, Mikhailkov, Mikhailkov-Konchalovski, Tarkovski, Paradjanov, Panfilov, Jiri Menzel, et al.

I believe a number of these filmmaker's movies are available on-line, now.

by Loefing on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:38:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that would be too broad. Czech cinema from the sixties would be a theme all unto itself. So would Stalin-era Soviet movies.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:47:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not everyone has easy access to DVDs. It also might be good to choose movies that you can find in rental - for those who don't want to invest in DVDs that they might only watch once.

The 'host' for any session should also root out some online reviews and wiki entries etc of the chosen films to assist getting a basic handle on the movies.

"And therefore think him as a serpent's egg
Which hatch'd, would, as his kind grow mischievous;
And kill him in the shell."


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:44:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are not DVD rental stores/services in Europe?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yes - plenty. But not everyone is in Europe.

For those hard-to-find movies, this place is great, and they have postal sales:

http://www.pienileffakauppa.fi/catalog/

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am already thinking of what I could pair with my idol Tati.

Trafic v. Traffic?
Les Vacances de Monsieur Hulot v. Mr Bean's holiday?
Jour de fête v. Jazz on a Summer's Day?
Playtime v. Clockwork Orange?

The mind boggles...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought we would start off with a two month schedule just to get this project off the ground, and get it off well. We can make changes later once we see the difficulties we will encounter.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Su-per!  Plus we have Sven, a filmmaker, and me, someone with an idiot film degree.  I'm looking forward to this.

For the record - I did course in film study with British Film Institute/Uni of London and then lectured for the BFI, before teaching history and theory of media at Uni of Westminster.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We could start a film gang!  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I want the copyright on this project in case we can syndicate it later.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh.  A friend just told me about this, sort of a Netflix for Egypt.  But, as I suspected, it's almost entirely big, recent Hollywood releases, very few classics.  They don't have either of our films.  But it's interesting to see that they're here.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:57:34 PM EST
Actually, on closer inspection, they do seem to have some classics, they just aren't listed in their "classics" section.  This is probably worth signing up for.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:09:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure you all know this, but most universities have pretty significant film collections.  You might have to watch them on site, but ...

Actually, I can only speak for American universities.  I'll shut up now....

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:05:28 PM EST
there's a good, critical but appreciative review of "The Serpent's Egg" here:

http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=10557

e.g.:


How much you find of interest in The Serpent's Egg probably depends on how interested you are in Bergman. For casual viewers, it's a film to approach with care. Bergman fans who haven't seen it will probably be surprised at how much better it is than reputation suggests.

Some might prefer to view the film first.

It has advice about DVD versions:


"The Serpent's Egg has previously been available on DVD in a truly appalling region-free release from Sanctuary, the only virtue of which was the low price. This MGM edition forms part of their Ingmar Bergman collection, a boxset which has been delayed due to aspect ratio errors on two of the films; Shame and Hour of the Wolf. However, The Serpent's Egg is already available as a separate disc.
...This MGM DVD presents it very well and is certainly a worthwhile purchase - although it's probably a good idea to wait for the exquisite, and surprisingly inexpensive, boxset


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:23:03 PM EST

You can see an extract from it here:



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks Ted, especially for the info about the DVD editions.  Very helpful.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suggest that we not read reviews before we see the films, except possibly the moderator might want to use them in choosing films. I say sit down , watch the film and see what it does to you. Be your own critics. If you want to read reviews after watching the film, perhaps to give you better understanding of the film, or understand it's nuances, that's OK. Of course, this is only my opinion, so take it as you like.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:37:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I suggest reading reviews before the SECOND viewing :-)

Actually this does raise a serious, complex issue - film-makers generally make films  for people within their own culture  - and generational experience (usually unconsciously). People within that culture/generation will generally have an intuitive understanding of the film which is difficult for those from outside that context to share. It's a bit like jokes - some of which can be very topical - and if you have to have them explained you often lose the humour.

 Some films - like other works of art - transcend their cultural context and have a very wide appeal. But this can be deceptive; one might understand the plot and general ideas and feel one has understood the film - but miss a lot if one's culture and generation are very different from those of the maker.

I was lucky enough to have a very good lecturer on the film course I did years ago, Peter Harcourt. He wrote a book of the course: "Six European Directors" and he did very detailed analyses of some of their films, a biography (many critics stop there -individualism rules), but also a very wide-ranging look at each director's culture and their relation to that culture (and other directors, writers, etc. within it). Bergman was one of the directors and I came to understand his films far more deeply due to understanding the biographical and cultural context presented by Harcourt. In this case it's relevant to know that as a youth Bergman was an admirer of Hitler - and was shocked and ashamed when he learned about the concentration camps.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 06:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good post Ted. It is also relevant to "The Serpent's Egg"that at the time he made this film he had fled Sweden due to the tax collector and he was living in Germany. He had stayed in a different country (I forget where) before Germany. But I agree with you. It's good to know these things before the SECOND viewing, not the first. We should go into the FIRST viewing with as empty a mind as possible.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 07:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I take a different approach. I don't like to let anyone into my head that I don't know, since I do try to have an open mind to any movie and movies can be quite powerful. I don't need to know the plot, but I do like to know who is behind it - who is the author and where they are coming from.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:04:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way Sven. Would you like to be the "chooser" and "moderator" for the second film blog, let's say March 14th. I'm going to ask Ted Welch and poemless if they would like to follow.
DeAnander has come up with a great suggestion in this thread; I don't know if he can moderate a blog- I think he's on the west coast, USA, which might make the time difference too great. I'll ask him. Or, if you see this DeAnander, please let me know.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 03:02:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd be happy to. BTW I believe DeAnander is of the female persuasion. ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 03:10:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe DeAnander is of the female persuasion. ;-)

How is one to know if she doesn't come to the meetups? I know poemless is a woman because she talks about high heeled shoes all the time. But after all these years still no photo. It's tough being in love with words an a computer screen.


I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahhhh....romance is not dead, then...
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:41:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW I am not very good on gender issues. I may be wrong. But caring compassion is a good indicator. Maybe...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 06:26:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We're going to have to wait for DeAnander  to give his/her opinion about which persuasion he/she belongs to.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 06:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
certainity has left the window in an environment where we interact by digital phrasing, but DeA prefers to be described as female. So I stick to that.

The only thing we know is that we know nothing...

by Nomad on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 08:35:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hint.

(And poemless once posted pictures of herself at a meetup in Chicago.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo:
(And poemless once posted pictures of herself at a meetup in Chicago.)

My kingdom for those photos!

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, unless you manage to blackmail poemless into re-posting, you have to forget about those photos.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Er, I think that's Izzy who talks about shoes all of the time.  I talk about men and lipstick, but I could be a drag queen for all you know.  ;-)

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 10:54:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not all men, dear - just Russian men ;-)

The rest of us can only aspire to the cruel intelligent good looks that press your button.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 11:54:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless:
I could be a drag queen for all you know.  ;-)

In that case, don't rush the photo!

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]


We should go into the FIRST viewing with as empty a mind as possible.

Well I'm not sure about "should"; as you said earlier, it's a matter of opinion/preference. Cf. Sven's comment - and if you want to know where a director is coming from, it helps, as Harcourt used to do, to look at their culture/period/biog/influences.

In fact our minds are not empty at all, but full of information/attitudes, etc. - so arguably, you might as well add stuff which would put you as close as possible to the kind of audience the director assumed (usually unconsciously) would be watching it - for their first time. So a director might assume that you knew that France is a country, but as we saw the other night, this assumption might leave the blond in the TV game in the open thread rather puzzled :-)

But, if you prefer to see it with just your usual set of assumptions/information etc. you "should" do that :-)

 

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 10:39:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To chime in...  I don't suggest reading "reviews" before seeing a film (unless you're flipping through the paper looking for something to do that night...).  Reviews are generally judgements on whether a film is good or bad.  Plus, most reviewers have some type of agenda, so unless you are familiar with their work, they won't nec. be helpful.

There are, as with any art form, two schools of thought:  Either a piece should stand on its own and convey its message, etc, without being interpreted in any historical, social, biographical context - or - a piece can only be truly understood and appreciated when approached in a historical, social, biographical context.  All things in moderation, I think.  No.  That's not even true!  I don't believe that at all!  I'm an extremist.

Anyway, if you want to be an over-achiever and go read the biography of the director and study the historical context of some movie, go for it.  But if you just want to see a movie and talk about your impressions, that shouldn't stop you from participating.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 11:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A neanderthal confronted by a Nokia N60 would have very interesting impressions. One course of thought might lead to the mobile being smashed against the rocks. Another course may treasure the novelty and detail and keep it as a talisman. But s/he'll never be able to use it for the purpose intended because there is no infrastructure.

Everything is built on everything that went before. Not just material things, but also languages (including visual), knowledge, science, social interactions etc.

The only part of us that hasn't been built on what went on, before us, is emotions. Emotions always start from zero with each human being. Yes, we can talk and write now about emotions in greater complexity, but that is not the same thing as the emotions themselves - they have always been complex.

The language of film is also an infrastructure. The first three rows in the first public presentation of a moving film by the Lumière brothers on December 28th 1895, in Paris, ran screaming from the theatre as the screen showed a jerky image of a train coming in to a station, toward the camera.

So yes, impressions are OK if you are already immersed in the literacy of the convention on screen, but only of anecdotal interest if you are watching Pather Panchali - by the beautiful Satyajit Ray. There are clearly interesting insights to be had from the culture clash that results, but they are not about the movie, they are about you ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 12:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no clue what you are talking about.  Or rather, what your point is...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 12:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My point exactly....

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:20:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What did that film degree include ? :-)  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was supposed to come with something? :)

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:18:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a somewhat confusing swedish paper manual and a missing piece?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What did that film degree include?

Eyestrain and a lifetime supply of popcorn?

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 10:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ref: poemless' response to Sven's comment on poemless' statement.

Watching a particular film is like hearing only one side of a multi-person conversation.  If you don't know what is being talked about you won't know what is being said.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 10:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But letting your imagination loose on one side of a conversation can produce a great experience. And the movies I consider "best" was the ones that cooperated with my imagination to produce the best movie experiences in me.
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 03:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In general - quite right :-) However the bit:

the first three rows in the first public presentation of a moving film by the Lumière brothers on December 28th 1895, in Paris, ran screaming from the theatre as the screen showed a jerky image of a train coming in to a station, toward the camera.

is probably an urban legend, cf.:


The film is associated with an urban legend well-known in the world of cinema. The story goes that when the film was first shown, the audience was so overwhelmed by the moving image of a life-sized train coming directly at them that people screamed and ran to the back of the room. Hellmuth Karasek in the German magazine Der Spiegel wrote that the film "had a particularly lasting impact; yes, it caused fear, terror, even panic." However, some have doubted the veracity of this incident such as film scholar and historian Martin Loiperdinger in his essay, "Lumiere's Arrival of the Train: Cinema's Founding Myth".[2] Whether or not it actually happened, the film undoubtedly astonished people in the audience who were unaccustomed to the amazingly realistic illusions created by moving pictures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Arriv%C3%A9e_d'un_Train_en_Gare_de_la_Ciotat



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not exactly disputational evidence, but if you need chapter and verse I'd be happy, but bored, to supply them.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh go one, bore yourself :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All things in moderation, I think.  No.  That's not even true!  I don't believe that at all!  I'm an extremist.

Ah so even moderation in moderation, that is extreme.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 12:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL.  Actually it occurred to me mid-thought that my 2 "concentrations" (heh) in film school were experimental film (art-for-art's-sake meta weirdness, complete with manifestos on the ethical use of a camera as opposed to that of a pen...) and national cinemas.  In fact, pretty much all of the history I know has been acquired through film studies (seriously limiting my repertoire of knowledge...).  But I was and continue to be wonkishly interested in the role film plays in the development of national identity, yada yada yada propaganda yada yada yada state and media blah blah blah, all that jazz.  Just so happens these two seemingly opposite artistic motivations collide in a fabulous manner in ... Russian cinema!  Woo hoo.  But you didn't want to know all that, so I just left it at "I am an extremist."

:)

Er, but since I am on the topic ...  it is said that the famed Nikita Mikhalkov, of international "Burnt by the Sun" fame (and who is shooting a sequel at this moment) has fallen in with Putin.  I suppose there is something to be said about history repeating itself here...


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 12:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I liked that film.

And maybe this will elicit groans, but I'd be perfectly thrilled to have a film blog on Tarkovsky....

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:29:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sweet.  Though I've always been more intrigued by Tarkovsky's writing about film than his making of them...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless. Will you take film blog #4 on May 16th?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure.  Though I can't agree to the exact date right now.  But I will do the 4th one sometime around then.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LEP, I'm leaning toward the Magnificent Seven (Sturges) v Seven Samurai (Kurosawa) for my movie blog - but I can still be swayed.

The former is based on the latter. Both feature war-weary professionals becoming altruistic in their own way. But filmically, they are worlds apart, not only contextually.

For me there is enough meat for a whole new look at both movies - but with the benefit of hindsight in the multitide of reviews and assessments of each.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We could do The Hidden Fortress (Kurosawa) vs. Star Wars (Lucas) on a later occasion, too.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:14:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, that is a great idea! I'm surprised you would put those two together - but you always were a mystery to me ;-)

Sadly I am not a great Star Wars fan - I have the same feeling that Hitchcock described: 'The audience is an organ and I play all the stops'.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Surprised, why exactly?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because you are a mystery, silly!

I don't know what makes you tick. Nor do I need to really know. If you're good enough for Barbara, you're good enough for me :-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it can't be a surprise to put a movie together with the one that is said to have inspired it. Unless you're surprised by the fact that I'm aware of the connection.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was only surprised by your extension of the connection.

In the interests of inclusiveness, I was suggesting a pair of movies that would be accessible to a wide range of ET readers - with the possibility that any diffidence could be erased by the amount of pre-existing critique.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 03:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I happen to be a Kurosawa fan, is all.

Another Kurosawa-inspired pair: Kurosawa's Throne of Blood and Roman Polanski's Macbeth. What is the best adaptation of King Lear to watch alongside Kurosawa's Ran?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 03:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too...

I didn't call my company Hokusai for nothing....

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 03:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
probabbly the 1971 Peter Brook one would be a good comparison

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 03:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't seen the Throne of Blood nor Polanski's Macbeth, but I am fond of the Welles version...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 06:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My mother commented recently that the Wells version is too polished and clean for Macbeth. I have, in fact, only seen Polanski's.

If LEP will let me, I think I'd like to do this triple feature for my film blog.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 06:13:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No problem, Miguel.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 06:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Too clean and polished ? Picture me amazed, as that's not how I remember it... The photography itself isn't clean (although that might be me seeing it on old copies)...

Compare :

and



Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 06:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Polanski's is very explicit and realistic. Yes, the image may be crisper but I have reason to believe Welles' is more like watching a theatre production.

But we're getting about 6 months ahead of ourselves...

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 06:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm gonna leave it to you, Sven. There are probably 40 million combinations of great films we could put together and I've chosen my combination for the first one. I have some idea what I'll choose when it's my turn again.

We can also suggest other films to look at in addition to the two main films if people have the time. For example you could say, if you have the time  watch Yojimbo too. That's just an example off the top of my head; I haven't really thought about it. Or, I might say in the Cabaret- Serpents Egg blog, watch La Grande Illusion if you have the time.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:15:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A Yojimbo/Zatoichi double feature would be cool.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're going to watch "The Seven Samurai" get the recent Criterion DVD release.  They reconstructed the original Tokoyo print.  All other releases are hack jobs done unto Kurosawa's edit.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 10:25:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We could do an Mihalkov/Kurosawa double feature: Urga and Dersu Uzala

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you are just trying to hijack everything...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:20:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Today the film blog, tomorrow the world!


We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 05:27:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
dersu uzala had the most beautiful visuals i ever saw in a movie....

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 01:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Anyway, if you want to be an over-achiever and go read the biography of the director and study the historical context of some movie, go for it.  But if you just want to see a movie and talk about your impressions, that shouldn't stop you from participating.

"over-achiever"? - this sounds about on a level with calling people who actually enjoy studying something "nerds". Nobody suggested that anyone would be unable to participate if they just spoke about their impressions.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I often watch european films and wish I could discuss with eurolanders (native speakers of the language of the film in question) who would "get" all kinds of things about the script and acting that I missed.

recent views:  The Lives of Others, Caché, La Vie en Rose (biopic of Piaf), M Hulot's Holiday, Battle of Algiers.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 08:27:02 PM EST
and speaking of The Lives of Others...

massive new Stasi-style surveillance project rolls forward in US with the uniquely neocon twist that it will mostly be operated by, you guessed it, private corporate contractors.

Under a proposal being reviewed by Congress, a National Applications Office (NAO) will be established to coordinate how the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and domestic law enforcement and rescue agencies use imagery and communications intelligence picked up by U.S. spy satellites. If the plan goes forward, the NAO will create the legal mechanism for an unprecedented degree of domestic intelligence gathering that would make the U.S. one of the world's most closely monitored nations. Until now, domestic use of electronic intelligence from spy satellites was limited to scientific agencies with no responsibility for national security or law enforcement.

The intelligence-sharing system to be managed by the NAO will rely heavily on private contractors including Boeing, BAE Systems, L-3 Communications and Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC). These companies already provide technology and personnel to U.S. agencies involved in foreign intelligence, and the NAO greatly expands their markets. Indeed, at an intelligence conference in San Antonio, Texas, last month, the titans of the industry were actively lobbying intelligence officials to buy products specifically designed for domestic surveillance.

serious dogwaggery at work as rapacious marketeers, running out of Furrin Enemies to surveil, need to expand their market (growth is necessary, remember?)... where else to expand but inside the Homeland?

cross ref this story with the  ominous "Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Bill" and the series of successes by industrialists seeking to redefine environmental activists as "terrorists and traitors" and the mosaic that emerges is not pretty.

I wonder if one day, people will make heartrending historical films about the Bad Old Days of Amurka.  it would be nice to think so, 'cos it would imply that these Bad Days will at some point recede into the past and be replaced by not-so-bad (if far from perfect) ones.


The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 09:00:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A clue to future "other purposes" may lie in the Act's parentage. The proud House "mother" of the Patriot Act's evil twin is Rep. Jane Harmon (D-California), chair of the Homeland Security Intelligence Subcommittee. Representative Harmon has admitted to a long and productive relationship with the RAND Corporation, a California based think-tank with close ties to the military-industrial-intelligence complex. RAND's 2005 study, "Trends in Terrorism," contains a chapter titled, "Homegrown Terrorist Threats to the United States." Is this Act a bastard child?

    Keep in mind, the RAND Corporation was set up in 1946 by Army Air Force Gen. Henry "Hap" Arnold as "Project RAND," sponsored by the Douglas Aircraft Company. Keep in mind also, Donald Rumsfeld was its chairman from 1981 to 1986, and Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Dick Cheney's felonious former chief of staff, and Condoleezza Rice were trustees. Enough said!

RAND maintains "homegrown terrorism" will not be the result of jihadist sleeper cells. Rather, it will result from anti-globalists and radical environmentalists who "challenge the intrinsic qualities of capitalism, charging that in the insatiable quest for growth and profit, the philosophy is serving to destroy the world's ecology, indigenous cultures, and individual welfare."

    Further, RAND claims anti-globalists and radical environmentalists "exist in much the same operational environment as al Qaida" and pose "a clear threat to private-sector corporate interests, especially large multinational business." Therein lies the real "other purposes."

Now tell me again that there are no conspiracies among those in power to protect their profits and keep us peasants in our place...  

Challenging the "intrinsic qualities of capitalism" is poised to become heresy and thought crime, predefined as "extremist" in a environment of ideological hegemony crafted over 4 decades and more by the capitalists' think tanks and wholly owned media.  In other words, half the discussions here at ET would qualify as exchanges of dangerously radical ideas.

How flattering that they consider us enough of a threat to "private-sector corporate interests, especially large multinational business" that they need Orwellian/Stalinist legislation to stamp us out.  I had no idea we were doing so well.

Seriously, these people are scary.  They have almost captured unlimited unitary executive power, they have declared who they intend to demonise and persecute, and they are putting the mechanisms in place to do it...  Frankly, BushCo frighten me a lot more than "would-be Leader for Life" Chavez.

sorry, all this doesn't belong on this thread, it's just that The Lives of Others is so poignant a portrait of a Surveillance State, its pathos, its idiocy, its tragedy... its horrific absurdity... it breaks one's heart to think of it all happening all over again, but with nastier weapons and more powerful spy gear -- and all in service, not even of a powerful ideal gone wrong (there's almost a tragic poetry to that), but of nothing more than the ideology of untrammelled greed...  such a sordid cause in whose name to unleash the dogs of snooping and state terror.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 09:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least unsavory times makes for good movies.

And we have our very own surveilliance society being pushed through over here. Why? Damned if I know. Best theory so far is that the elites learned a lesson from East Germany: skilled educated people will flee if there is somewhere worth fleeing to. That is costly, therefore the rest of the rich world needs to follow US down.

Mandatory Stasi 2.0 reference:

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 10:19:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't seen "The Lives of Others." It sounds like a great candidate for a future film blog. Could that pair with "The Third Man?"

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:09:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would double-bill it with (Gene Hackman in) "The Conversation".

I was thinking that Caché might make a double bill with The Battle of Algiers, too.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, very appropriate combo and The Conversation is one of my favourites - Hackman is SO different from the cop in French Connection - great actor great director - and here's an example of how biography and knowledge of the period/influences help understanding:

Though the script was written in the mid-1960s, the film was released shortly after the Watergate scandal broke and thus reflected contemporary issues of personal responsibility and the encroachment of technology on privacy.

Coppola has cited Blowup (Michelangelo Antonioni) as a key influence on his conceptualization of the film's themes, such as surveillance versus participation, and perception versus reality. "Francis had seen Antonioni's Blowup a year or two before, and had the idea to fuse the concept of Blowup with the world of audio surveillence." (Murch in Ondaatje, 2002, p. 152). There are also several overt borrowings from Blowup, notably the presence of mimes in both films and the central sequences involving the enhancement of a medium to reveal details previously unnoticed (photography in Blowup, audio tapes in The Conversation). Coppola has also noted the influence of Hermann Hesse's Steppenwolf on the figure of Harry Caul (Ondaatje, 2002, p. 152) and (in the hotel bathroom scene) Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho.



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 10:23:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 10:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted. Will you take the film bog #3 on April 18th?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 01:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I suggest passing it on to that fecund amateur, i.e. enthusiast, Migeru :-) Happy to do one any time.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You take April 18th.  Migeru can take June and perhaps ceebs, July.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:31:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe add Brazil into the mix too?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:19:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we take Brazil on it's own ;-)

Enough material there for a hundred diaries.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:24:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well there is that

I think at some point we should look at Memento at some point, I don't know what you'd compare it to.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Memento - tell me more - I am ignorant.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:32:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Memento is unlike anything else, but since it's about memory I'd put it next to eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, or open your eyes or rashomon.

Now, open your eyes was remade as vanilla sky so we could put those two together. With the added bonus that Penélope Cruz appears in both of the movies (not that I like Penélope Cruz, but that's another story).

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, I just thought for the weirdness we could put Memento next to David Lynch's  Lost Highway. And Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind could go with Total Recall.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How did I miss this? I am humbled.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:45:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Memento" is about memory and so unlike anything else ?!?

Please watch the '60's Resnais movies - not the recent tripe he is making. Those are movies about memory, the way it works, etc... And with a bit fewer Hollywood techniques which can be annoying.

Last Year at Marienbad, Je t'aime, Je t'aime, Muriel (also about the Algerian war)...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 06:08:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 02:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about Memento/The Usual Suspects?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by