European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

A triumph for democracy

by Jerome a Paris
Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:58:07 AM EST

No - not the elections in Russia which are making headlines everywhere. The other vote that week, which is making much smaller headlines, because it's hard to spin: Venezuela Votes No On Chavez Forever.

Voters reject Chavez’s bid for new powers
Provisional results – based on 90 per cent of the vote – showed 50.7 per cent of voters rejected the changes, with 49.3 per cent in favour. Mr Chavez said the result was a “photo-finish” but conceded defeat and said that “we respect the rules of the game.”

How quaint. Proposals to allow the current president to have more powers are put to voters in what appears to be a fair vote. They, not unreasonably, choose to reject these changes. and the leader recognises his defeat and abides by that vote. It would be nice to have this in some other places...

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A triumph for democracy | 34 comments (34 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 7)

Jérôme, you have it all backwards: Putin is someone into whose eyes you look and see the depth of his soul.

Chavez is an ultra dangerous dictator determined to end the world as we know it.

I'm glad I could help you with this useful reminder.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:19:51 AM EST

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 7)

It's definitely a triumph for democracy. And despite his nasty authoritarian streak (something which made his suggested constitutional amendments quite dangerous IMHO), Chavez has said he'll accept the people's will - which is rather more than his opponents ever did.

Hopefully this means he'll take a more constitutional path to reform, using the legislature rather than a referendum. Given that half the reforms proposed were suggested by the legislature anyway, I doubt he'll have much trouble passing them.

by IdiotSavant on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:20:18 AM EST

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 3)

Venezuela dice 'no' a la Constitución de Chávez · ELPAÍS.com		Venezuela says 'no' to Chávez's Constitution - ElPais.com
El 'no' se impone por un estrecho margen (50,7%-49,2%).- El presidente sólo admite una derrota "por ahora".- La oposición celebra en las calles la victoria		The 'no' prevails by a narrow margin (50.7%-49.2%).- The President only admits defeat "for now".- The opposition celebrates victory on the streets.
F. PEREGIL / CARACAS, enviado especial - Caracas - 03/12/2007		F. Peregil / Caracas, special envoy - Caracas - 03/12/2007
Venezuela ha dicho 'no' a la reforma constitucional de Hugo Chávez. Por un estrechísimo margen, 50,7% frente a 49,2%, los opositores al presidente venezolano le han infligido su primera derrota en las urnas en sus nueve años de Gobierno, rechazando una reforma que le hubiera dado un poder casi ilimitado. Con el 88% de los vot6tos escrutados, Chávez ha comparecido para reconocer la victoria "pírrica" de la oposición, pero no ha dado por perdida la guerra. Según él, las reformas han fracasado "por ahora" y "siguen vivas", lo que sugiere que podría intentar ponerlas en marcha más adelante.		Venezuela said 'no' to Hugo Chávez's constitutional reform. By a very narrow margin, 50.7% to 49.2% the opposition to the Venezuelan President have inflicted him his first defeat in the polls in nine years of Government, rejecting a reform which would have given him nearly unlimited power. With 88% of the votes counted, Chávez has appeared to recognise the "phyrric" victory of the opposition, but he hasn't given up the war. According to him, reforms have failed "for now" and "are still alive", which suggests he might try to set them in motion further along.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:33:09 AM EST

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

20% less voters (3 million people) that in last elections is not good for democracy.

50.7-49.3 is not a very stimulating result for peaceful democracy in the future.

by kukute on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:36:11 AM EST

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 3)

50.7-49.3 is not a very stimulating result for peaceful democracy in the future.

I think that depends a great deal on whether anyone is going to be reching for their guns over this. And Chavez has said he's not. Which again is more than you can say for Venezuela's opposition...

by IdiotSavant on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

I totally agree with you.

by kukute on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:42:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

Beats the heck out of the Gore/Bush result though. Can we get some international election monitors to the USA for 2008, in which widespread voter disenfranchisement is expected? http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/9/14/125245/435

Karen in Austin

Thence comes our true nobility by grace, It was not willed us with our rank and place. Chaucer

by Wife of Bath (priceluda at grandecom dot net) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 06:22:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well said - (4.00 / 3)

this situation, and the response by Chavez, has given me substantially more respect for the man and his party. I was merely hopeful about him before.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 01:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (none / 1)

That indicates voter fatigue on Chávez's camp, and a full mobilization of the opposition.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:45:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

And I think some uneasiness on the part of some of his supporters.

The question now is whether the opposition will go for another recall referndum, and if so, whether they'll finally win it.

by IdiotSavant on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 05:48:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 3)

The bad thing is that there were some very good ideas in the reforms - but they were mixed with the other amendments that made many people uneasy.

Apparently the abstention rate was ~45% (high), this is consistent with the idea that a lot of the Chavez supporters stayed home. This pre-referendum opinion poll might be of interest.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 06:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 5)

WTF is "voter fatigue"?

It could also indicate that Chavez supporters don't want to vote against him, but also don't like this particular set of amendments.

A procedural issue is that the amendments were an all-or-nothing package: You either voted yes for all of them, or no for all of them, so if you like some of the amendments but not others, your decision about how to vote is now a lot more complicated. My understanding is that some of the reforms are very solid and widely popular, even among Chavez's critics, but others are far less so, even among his supporters.

This is a fairly common political gimmick that's been used in a lot of places, including here in Egypt when the regime amended the constitution earlier this year. (A surprising number of voters here told me they were generally supporters of the regime -- and the entire voters' roll is dominated by government supporters, for a variety of reasons -- but they were voting against the amendments because their objections to the more controversial ones outweighed their support for the popular ones. But of course, here the referendum vote was totally rigged, which it obviously wasn't in Venezuela.)

It's a bit of a gamble. The inclusion of legitimately popular reforms in an all-or-nothing referendum can encourage one's supporters to get out and vote, and can help pass controversial measures that would be unlikely to pass on their own. Or it can backfire, and keep confused or conflicted voters away from the polls. My guess is that's at least part of what happened in Venezuela.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 07:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

European constitution, anyone?

by GreatZamfir on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 08:16:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 3)

I think that the big positive from this is that the good things that Chavez has done will be consolidated in a political movement instead of a cult of personality.

As you say, some of the reforms would have undoubtedly succeeded, we're talking about limiting the daily work schedule to 6 (!) hours down from the present 8. Ending autonomy for the Central Bank. Expanding social security benefits to the informal sector. All needed reforms.

Hopefully Chavez will back down, and allow the ideas he's promoting to be taken up by his party.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 10:02:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (none / 1)

Nope. Opponents of the constitutional changes included other poléiticians on his side, most prominently governors who would have been replaced by people appointed by the President (as in France until recently and in Russia recently). So the only reason Chávez was defeated was that this wasn't a clear Chávez vs. Opposition, left vs. right vote.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 09:30:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

i sense it's perhaps their way of reining him in. they like him as president, but don't want to become another cuba.

left to his own will, from some of his oratory i think it's clear to many, even in his camp, that he has a couple of screws loose, and being allowed full power for life would exaggerate his faults, turn him further into a cartoon of himself, and possibly undo much of the moves towards a fairer society that he has accomplished.

his graceful acceptance of defeat was a good sign; i suspect much or most of the opposition was manipulated by anti-socialist interests from abroad, while some of his supporters abstained in order not to swell his head too much.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 09:44:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

Screws loose?

He's frozen relations with Spain over what King Juan Carlos said at the Ibero-American summit, and with Colombia because Uribe stopped Chavez from negotiating with FARC for the release of hostages.

There is some indication that he will nationalize both BBVA and Santander Bank in Venezuela. This would really piss off the Spanish government.

The Spanish have already redirected investment out of much of the region because of things like this and Morales (re)nationalization of the oil fields in Bolivia.

On the upside for people in the US, this has led the Spanish to invest in the US. I'm actually planning a letter to the mayor elect of my hometown, to point him to the potential for Spanish investment that hasn't been tapped. Spain has a very similiar industrial profile to the region I'm from. In particular, the auto industry where Spanish companies have been expanding into the North American market.

The big daddy is the potential entry of SEAT into the US market following a Sanchez to Sanchez to Smith marketing strategy. (Following the Mexican immigrants, then build from that customer base into the Anglo population.)

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 10:11:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

yup, screws loose...

i read the venezuela analysis link, and was duly impressed by how much he has done and wants to continue doing for a fairer distribution of wealth in his country...

and while he definitely has the cojones not to be psyched by bushco, i am concerned that his braggadocio will over-reach.

chest-pumping rhetoric is one thing... delusional paranoid foaming-at-the-mouth aggression is another, and i saw him go there a few days before the election, probably to fire up some of the 'old guard', i imagine...

put it this way...while i think he's been a genuine breath of fresh air in world - especially s. american - politics, i'm equally glad venezuela doesn't have nukes...

i wish of course that nobody had them, just to be clear...

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 12:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 5)

You guys amaze me. A gracious loss, and--contempt.
Chavez just lost a very close and by all reports so far very honest election--one in which the best traditions of democracy seem to have worked well. One could hope to God that someone with similar loose screws might participate in our elections.
He has (more or less) gracefully accepted the defeat of a lifetime.

The Spain story reads awfully differently when you read what actually happened, what was actually said. Chavez spoke intemperately, by the aristocratic standards of the King-- rather like most of my friends and relatives in the region. The King of Spain gets up and screams at another head of state, in an international conference (no screw loose there). The king was Aznar's mentor and supporter. Chavez Implied that Aznar behaved like a fascist. From the outside, that seems to have been pretty true at times, but it was an intemperate remark, true. But-- mad? Sounds like a passionate man from a non-aristocratic background.

The constitutional amendment had nothing to do with "president for life". Only, the eternal drumbeat of the MSM relentlessly pushed that lie. It only allowed him to stand for reelection- until the people decided to elect someone else.

Uribe is one of the maddest head of states that the region has been saddled with in a long time- in a region with quite a rouge's gallery in it's history. A "Leader" with well-established ties to the drug cartels who function as his ex-officio death squads, a "Leader" whose family reads like a wall full of post office wanted posters, and whose "government" is bitterly known locally as the "USS Colombia". Ingrid Betancourt might have had a chance. That is widely believed to be why Uribe gave a speech extolling the good work of Chavez and the hope for the releases at 11 AM, and the same day at 2PM attacked Chavez for "failing to follow proper diplomatic channels" by talking to the Guerrillas directly, and withdrew his authorization to negotiate. The same day. Nobody's mad here. Sheesh.
He is either mad or a puppet. Or both. What actually happened was that Chavez had the opportunity to speak by telephone with someone. He OK'd the call with Uribe's representative. He received the OK. Can't find the link, sorry- help here from the peanut gallery.
Any neighbor of the "USS Colombia" should, by now, know what to expect. I don't understand why Chavez survived that deal. I hope he has as little to do with Uribe as possible.

As for Spanish redirection of investment out of the region--seems to me it was the king who was pissed off- the current government has been pretty conciliatory. sounds like one of those FT or WSJ memes that Jerome works so hard to eviscerate. Gimme a link-I'd like to know more.

I believe the evidence is good that Hugo has accomplished more than any other Venezuelan leader in recent memory-- perhaps ever. Screw loose.

Melo-- do they make blue tuning forks?
:-)

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 01:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 3)

i told you how i feel about chavez---equivocal.

hell, i really want to like the guy, his comment about sulphur was worth the price of the gig alone.

we all have our baggage.... once a soldier....

i'd like to continue believing that chavez is so far a net positive, but i think he does himself a disservice by raging and spluttering...

i feel many positive things about the man, that others have already pointed to, including you, so i chose not to reiterate them.

i am sorry if my comment came of as mostly disparaging, i should have worded it less melodramatically :)

i don't know if there are blue tuners...i say this deadpan cuz i don't see the joke, sorry, i'm dumb like that....

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 4)

Rant:
Ivonne and I were just talking about this-
It's a cultural thing.
In latin America the ruling elites still usually come from the residue of the Spanish conquest, and they feel strongly that their cultural roots are in Spain, ---not with the unwashed heathens that surround them. Even though most of them have almost nothing in common with the Iberian peninsula except some ancestors and a dialect of Spanish. This is why they are so easily corrupted, why their rule is fraught with predatory policies not at all in the interest of the people they rule.

In Mexico they print ballots in over a dozen languages--not dialects. A fact bitterly objected to by the "perfumadoes" - the anointed ones, the tame ones who are picked up, flattered and sent to Harvard, their token families cultivated and tamed by the American Empire, then sent back to rule. Think American exceptionalism, racism, ethnocentrism. That ethnocentrism mixed with racism is easier to see from the outside, but is why the election of Evo Morales, an indigenous (polite for slave caste) coca farmer in Bolivia, is such an emotional, anger-making thing today in the region. Sub-humans, these indians. Not fit to govern themselves- not capable. We need to protect them- white man's burden and all, ya know. Back to the reservation, redskin!

And the election of Hugo Chavez carries the same emotional, racial charge for the elites all over the continent, in the U.S.---and, even more powerfully, in Europe.

The process of subjugating a continent begins with dehumanizing its current inhabitants. Ask the King of Spain. He has clearly not forgotten. And these dysfunctional rationales die hard- as hard as Neoliberal Economics. Which is precisely what ET is all about.

New Attitudes. New perspectives.

Europeans too feel an unacknowledged unease at a fat-faced, non-white passionate commoner in charge of one of the largest energy reserves on the planet, and it shows. You just KNOW he's gonna fuck it up. Buffoon. Clown. Must be mad.
No, my friends. Just not from here.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:11:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 3)

brilliant defence, geezer!

just..brilliant....

i hear what you're saying, but it doesn't take funny taste out of my mouth from when i saw him foaming.

he is a force of nature, and i root for him, but like an over-spirited horse, these types of personalities ( i know, i know, stereotypes) can over-react to something harmless and cause a lot of damage.

enoch powell had passion too, and george wallace, both of whom i despised, so it's not a 'darkie' thing!!!

the reforms he's proposing are so monumental, personally i wish the best to him, and what his policies mean for the distribution of wealth, i wish he had a governor that would stop him going so deep in the red....

just like with music, it makes unpleasant distortion.

i chuckle as i reveal all my cultural prejudices to myself and you in this post.

i see why it's taken a chavez to get what he's got, and do what he's done, and i take on board that even to ask him to roll back the intensity knob a bit for the sake of a better signal-to-noise ratio is a whitefellahin reaction, as in why can't they sip earl grey and discourse like reasonable people....

thanks anyway, i really enjoyed your comments, they are full of truth and forcefully expressed.

i guess it's all about what you're used to, how much emotion you can handle processing before your meter pegs.

perhaps it is part of the cultural myth i am swimming in that says he should chill a bit, if he wants to make it stick.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 06:02:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 3)

Europeans too feel an unacknowledged unease at a fat-faced, non-white passionate commoner in charge of one of the largest energy reserves on the planet, and it shows.

Europeans? All Europeans? Are you meaning that any criticism of Hugo Chavez is based on racism?

I don't mind passion in politics. In fact, being a soixante-huitard, I like it. And until proven wrong, I consider Chavez a legitimately elected president of a country that is as democratic as many other democracies. And his behaviour regarding the referendum results vindicates my point of view so far.

But I also know how to recognise authoritarian patterns. And I am fed up with some on the left falling regularly in love with "strong men". I am old enough to have seen it about Mao, Castro/Guevara, Ho-Chi-Minh and, for us Europeans, Otelo de Carvalho.

I definitely think that the ultimate subversive principle is democracy and the rule of law.

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 10:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 2)

Thanks for the complement. I spend a lot of time on comments ---replies--- to those whom I respect or like. The rest can pound salt.

I too worry that someone in Reston, Virginia slipped some cosmic PCP in Hugo's porridge, and he'll start foaming for real--it's another common weapon in the CIA's closet. And the main advantage in spending so many years as a man without a country is not that I am free of cultural filters--just that I know they're there, and I look hard for them.

My "Blue Tuner" was supposed to be funny. Thud.
Related to the idea that your Blue "e" string might just need a tweak or two.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 12:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (none / 1)

Hard and true issues. I really had not thought about the racist issue at all: D´oh, in the sense that it´s real in some circles and I should keep it in mind.

Now this may sound monarchic?, but after watching the Hugo-JC segment several times, in Spanish, I really believe it was purely lack of self-control on JC´s part and not racism. It was a very natural reaction of frustration from the interruptions and he lost it, but you could call it menopausal because he loses it with others at times: the ´aristocratic´, right-wing president of Madrid and the local archbishop, recently.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Several issues here (4.00 / 3)

Hugo´s daily populism show is different from reality: His ambassador in Spain has recanted on the frozen relations story.

I wouldn´t take the Spanish multinationals at their word because they have too much (foothold) to lose by leaving, so they will whine a lot, rename themselves and renegotiate, but they are not pulling out. Zapatero said so at the summit, so I wouldn´t count on redirecting investment.

Assuming that SEAT was expanding, although it has laid off workers in Catalunya, it does not even advertise their smallest model, Arosa, but plans to build some high-compact type and some sort of minivan,

-Why would it move west and not east?
-Wouldn´t all the competition/market make it too unattractive?
-Why would you want more car makers in the US (anywhere) at this point?
...
I forget who owns SEAT at the moment.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 02:47:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Several issues here (4.00 / 3)

Hugo´s daily populism show is different from reality: His ambassador in Spain has recanted on the frozen relations story.

Exactly. Almost.
We see it as a clown act- but life theatre is a part of the culture. They grant themselves the right to feel. In public.
Chavez is good at it, and not acculturated into the world of the Quisling enough to learn to talk, feel and think like a Gringo.

Think a thousand years of kissing Spanish ass.

Now, --think about a chance to no longer be a puppet,--even to stand up to the King of the Old Conquerors.

Venezuelans cheered all over the country when Hugo refused to eat it. They would have spat upon him at home if he had done less.
The Bolivarian Revolution is an act of public passion, as well as politics.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:29:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Several issues here (none / 1)

Even if I still hold the question about his term limits, I'm with you and I don't see Chavez as a clown, but as a necessary left fringe. As essential as ET!

It is his plan to push the SAmerica window to the left, being populist in his long television appearances because he believes it will slowly sink in. Just as our media uses the slow, water torture of inanity, he knows he will be derided in the North, but chooses to spread his message with calculated extra punches. He is sharp, he knows he must stay in the public eye and in international news to make a difference.

LOL. A thousand years of kissing Spanish ass.

I don´t know why I find that inspirationally funny....

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

First self-contradiction (none / 0)

Just found news of redirected investment today, even if it´s a single case and I´m not clear on how the capital moves around yet.

El País: http://tinyurl.com/2ap5du (My translation)
Zara (Inditex) sells its shop chain in Venezuela.

The textile group Inditex has reached an agreement to sell its shops to the Venezuelan, Phoenix World Trading, according to the daily Cinco Dias. Amancio Ortega´s local business partner will manage the chain as a franchise, based on an agreement signed by both parts in April.
....
Blah, blah... Inditex used this occasion to reiterate "its strong compromise for the development of the Venezuelan commercial sector".

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 05:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 3)

The real victory is for Hugo's legitimacy. The major criticisms against him are now invalidated. This may well have been his intention with this odd package of initiatives.

by paving on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 03:23:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A triumph for democracy (4.00 / 4)

Well, Chavez got as much, if not more, coverage on the TV news I've seen this weekend. It's been nice to see the tone of the coverage from Friday to Sunday change from general hysteria about the rise of dictatorships (Venezuela, Russia, ... oddly no mention of the US...) to a more sane observation of democracy at work. Of course, had the Si! vote won, you know the elections would not have been considered democratic, and the accusations from Washington would fly. But since our desired outcome won, the elections have been declared successful and the very epitome of Democracy. I'd like to add that it was pretty classy of Chavez to accept the results. So much for being an evil dictator. We're going to have to find another reason to hate him for having all that oil...

Well, we still have Authoritarian Russia to hate, thank god... </snark>

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 11:50:45 AM EST

Hold the champagne (4.00 / 2)

First off Chavez isn't finished yet. He may try again using other means.

Second, he made a tactical mistake by tying his political future to economic reforms. If he had split them into two questions he might have gotten the control he wanted without people worrying about a cult of personality.

It's an odd position. Anyone who tries to reduce the power of the oligarchs is going to run into well financed (and sometimes military) resistance. Allowing pure democracy to decide the issues can lead to policies which favor the rich - just look at the US. Money still talks louder than the ballot box.

So how does a weak leader get his policies carried out when he is always at risk of another US backed coup attempt? The temptation to resort to authoritarian means becomes hard to resist.

Where does the demagogue end and the philosopher king begin? Putin probably thinks the ends justify the means too.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 01:39:55 PM EST

Re: Hold the champagne (4.00 / 2)

Where does the demagogue end and the philosopher king begin?

that my fellow Et'er, should be carved in stone on the white house lintel.

brill...

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 at 04:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hold the champagne (none / 1)

But ---what if they're right?

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:37:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A triumph for democracy | 34 comments (34 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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