What's your thinking on Iran?

by Colman
Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:16:03 AM EST

Just when I was coming to the conclusion that it was politically impossible for the current US administration to carry out an attack on Iran even if it wanted to, there has been an increase in the rhetoric against the country and articles appearing about European concerns that the US are going to attack.

The BBC today has:

Public criticism of Iran was one of the notable features of President Bush's State of the Union speech on 23 January.

A second aircraft carrier is now in the Gulf in what Vice-President Cheney said was a "strong signal" to Iran.

However Mr Bush has played down suggestions that a US attack on Iran is in preparation.

while yesterday's Guardian had this article discussing anonymous European diplomats' fears that the US was going to attack.

What do you think? Are the Europeans supporting a US bluff or are they really afraid that the US is going to get drawn into a real large-scale conflict with Iran?


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This bit is insane, from the BBC link:
What does appear to be in force right now is a new harder-edged diplomacy, one aimed at further isolating Iran, with the ultimate hope perhaps that there will be a change of government.

The harder-edged the diplomacy, the less likely a change of government is. They must know this - the politics of fear is about the only thing they're any good at.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:18:16 AM EST
It is "politically" impossible for the US to attack Iran. Unfortunately, this administration has shown no evidence that it is bound by any of the normal rules of engagement. If Bush give the order for an attack, who exactly is going to stand up and say no? The worst he will suffer is after-the-fact consequences. A fat lot of good that will do the dead Iranians.
by det on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:29:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How many more Republican senators can they afford to alienate before proceedings against them become a realistic proposition?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:32:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the US attacks Iran the global economy goes into meltdown [* ] and then who cares about senators?

[* ] two failure modes: blockage of the Straits of Hormuz, and China pulling the plug on the US dollar.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:34:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that in Bush's mind proceedings against them will never become a realistic possibility. What really worries me is that he may very well be right. Even if he is not, those proceeding would only occur after he has attempted to bomb Iran to rubble.
by det on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, this is a very frightening possibility. Let's call it the Jack D. Ripper strategy. (from Dr. Strangelove) Let us remember that Ripper was not just a crazy nut who launched the planes under his command to attack the USSR, but he explicitly gambled that when the high command found out about his impending attack they would launch an all out assault in an attempt to cause enough destruction before the USSR would be able to retaliate.
So, when Congress becomes aware of the bombing or Iran they "will have to" back a full force escalation in order for the US not to completely loose power in the world...
I wonder if Bush is concerned about the purity of essence of his precious bodily fluids.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 08:11:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is ironic (or perhaps intended) is that Bush had announced his "axis of evil" with Iran while Iran had a vey moderate president and government, and soon after that Iran elected a hardliner president. Not a surprising scenario, actually. I have more fear now that Bush administration had intentions for military escalations in the Middle East right away. They are just making every "useful" enemy there, regardless of a priori fundamentalism level (compare Saddam's Iraq vs Saudi Arabia) or racial "patriotism" (Iran is Indoeropean, not Arab nation). It is almost beside the point what Iraq (that is, Iran) is doing. Europe is just playing the hapless weasel role again.
by das monde on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hapless Europe? I would say many in Europe totally agree with wars unleashed by Mr Bush (for example politicians and their media retinues) and they bear full moral and legal responsibilities for allowing new Fuhrer to act.
by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
France and Germany did all they could to stop Bush invading Iraq, short of actually declaring war on the US/UK (which Russia didn't do either) so I don't know what you're talking about.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:58:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Short of...declaring war? This was simply not the case and I don't know where did you get such information. About hands in gloves with American British regimes there is no need to talk about really - even Mr Schroeder and Mr Chirac who demagogically opposed the war on Iraq offered all kind of military and logistical help for US-UK war criminals.
by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:10:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What exactly was France's and Germany's involvement in "Operation Iraqi Freedom"?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Airports, hospitals, refuel, intelligence etc etc.
by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:16:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose they could have pulled out of NATO, yes.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:17:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't go all purist on us FE.

Actually, it's fun to watch the  outrage.

But you've got to have an appetite and appreciation for heavy helpings of hypocrisy.

And season it up heavily with salt.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 01:23:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European hypocrisy - this is the reason why I (and I am not alone) don't like Europe. European states were always hiding carnivorous instincts by liberal propaganda. Just come to Asia - everything is on display and politicians mostly do not deny that they take bribes and have disproportionate assets. Emotionally Asdian politicians have my sympathy - not any European one even from super clean Norway or Sweden - besides they are so boring and incompetent they also lie on regular basis. I do not tolerate any liers and hypocrites.
by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 08:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Add to this the latest Chirac gaffe.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:23:14 AM EST
I'd bet it'd have been fun to listen to the phone lines between Washington and Paris that day.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:24:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he got it right the first time.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!
by redstar on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 12:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's also a recent Asia Times article (seen in yesterday's salon).

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:26:47 AM EST
Iran has somehow slipped completely out from my mind lately but I heard there are frictions inside Iranian leadership. Nuclear bomb in Iranian hands perhaps would lead to official recognition of Israeli nukes from US and nothing more. It would lead also to some sort of uneasy stalemate in the Middle East, but there will be a much needed stability and possibly decline in oil prices.
What the world fears is American desires to prevent such stability from taking place, some hawkish elements in the Western establishment probably think that successful invasion of Iran by US and UK would bring oil price down. Grandious plans or dreams on scale of Alexander of Macedonia.
by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:42:51 AM EST
There have been frictions in the Iranian leadership for ages.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:58:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They should be scared. Don't know if they are, but you know, an Iran war would mean $200 oil and threaten the forces of the European countries in Iraq and Afghanistan. American brinkmanship is dangerous, first because there is no way to know how insane the Bush admin is and second because regardless of its insanity, it has a proven track record of incompetence.

Josh Marshall has a rather good post about this on TPM.

For an analysis on what an attack on Iran might cause see John Robb's AN ATTACK ON IRAN = CATALYST OF CHAOS.

For my money, the first wave and most parts of the second wave Robb talks about are near certain, with the third wave being more speculative, but definitely possible.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:46:08 AM EST
Just a side note motivated by Robb's column:
Here again, Hersh's article is useful. It is laden with comments that indicate that the air power intensive operation I laid out in my "Collapsing Iran" brief will be selected. For example:
"The Air Force is hawking it to the other services," the former senior intelligence official said. "They're all excited by it...
What is it about the air force that makes its members such psychopaths? [See Lebanon, bombing of]
"The lesson they took from Iraq is that there should have been more troops on the ground"--an impossibility in Iran, because of the overextension of American forces in Iraq--"so the air war in Iran will be one of overwhelming force."
As if the US Air Force is not "overwhelming" almost by definition.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is it about the air force that makes its members such psychopaths?
----
They feel those are comp. and video games...they like to get a target and win you know...morons...
by vbo on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 08:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Disassociation of their intellectual fantasy, actions based on that fantasy, and the results of those actions.

No one could have predicted
by ATinNM on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:43:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is it about the air force that makes its members such psychopaths?
There's a strong Christianist presence in the US Air Force.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 03:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More John Robb...
Although I am bearish on the future of conventional war between states, I am bullish on the potential for states (the legacy platforms in this struggle) to accelerate the dissipation of their remaining cohesion through mistakes (akin to the mistake the monarchies made during World War 1).
What? WWIII will see the end of the Nation State? And, after that, what?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
John Robb's larger theory is a further development of the theories on asymmetric warfare "fourth generation war" and the dissapation of the nation state's monopoly on force. Specifically, he is researching how a kind of open source model is being used by guerillas/terrorists/organised criminals to increase their capabilities, and he's rather "bullish" about that. The decline of the nation state has long been predicted by related military scholars, like Martin van Creveld. Robb thinks that nation states (being stupid) are now accellerating a process that was already well underway.

Now aside of reading Robb's blog and some newspaper articles on it I don't know this theory directly, so I don't know exactly how Robb's thinking fits in. Basically, though, you can see there being roughly three or four determinants of the decline and fall of the nation state.

The first, about which I'm not really sure, is failing primary loyalties. This is an ideological issue, but it doesn't exist everywhere (it does exist more in the third world than in the first).

The second and main determinant is technological change. It's ever easier for people to get access to tools with which they can exercise, project & coordinate force.

The third issue is the global capitalist system. Nation states rely on its functioning for their economic growth. However, the system (by unconscious (hidden hand) design) has a very low degree of resilience because it has a high level of interrelation coupled to a low level of redundancy. (We've had discussions on this topic on ET before, IIRC)

The fourth would be tactics. Because of their open source structure the global guerrillas function better in the current information environment.

What comes after the nation state depends upon how drastic the consequences of their collapse are. So, you can design various scenarios and speculate.

For instance, if the collapse of the nation state is not accompanied by a dowfall in economic activity of more than 30-50%, I'd say that it is quite probable that in America and Europe we'll see something much like the anarcho-capitalist dream becoming reality (privatisation of force, justice for those who can afford it, the poor out-lawed and excluded). In much of the third world there will be a reversion to tribalism mixed with mercenary armies, resource theft and piracy at sea as continual agents of chaos blocking the (re-)emergence of nation states.

If the collapse is bigger, then the level of technology will also fall and the set of circumstances that favoured the collapse of the nation state (the way that power/force is distributed and structured) will no longer exist. So after the population is much diminished we'll see the re-emergence of nation states.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to be a total pessimist, you can also see the elements of a solution in here (more sustainable tech, a more sustainable/resilient economic system, greater involvement of the population in politics).
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:26:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I noticed this article, where the author (Stephen Pizzo) sees many similarities of the current situation with the advent of the World War I. I myself do not see George Bush's  attack on Saddam Hussein as a good analogy of assassination of prince Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip. Neither I am impressed by other (quite scary) arguments. (And the grammar is suspiciously poor.)

But this situation in the Middle East might be familiar to Yugoslavia in the beginning of 1990's: it looked so quiet there for decades, communism has just collapsed, and then... nationalistic wars, genocide. The Middle East might indeed be a dynamite that George W. is fussing. Even if he would be immediately excluded (due to impeachement or so), the Middle East might be about to enter a hell beyond anyone's imagination.

Can anyone tell how these plots are real?

It's no coincidence that the Iran/Hezbollah/Syria axis decided now was the right moment to openly challenge the western-leaning democratic government in Lebanon. [...] If Syria goes with Iran then Lebanon is toast and Israel will look to Jordon and Egypt to join with them in a joint defense of Lebanon against Syria and, if necessary Iran as well. Because for Israel, a Syria and Lebanon controlled by Iran would be unacceptable.

The Iranians clearly see that scenario as a real possibility, which why they are racing to get a working nuclear weapon - to make Israel think twice before taking a swing at them.

More clues emerged last week when King Hussein of Jordon announced that he'd like his country to begin its own "civilian" nuclear program - like Iran's. Why? Because he too sees something awful his way comes.

And let us not forget those Ottoman Turks of WW I. They are still around in todays Turkey. During WW I they tried to exterminate the Armenians. This time they will try to itch another scratch that's been bugging them for decades, the Kurds. Turkey would love to get rid of separatist Kurds once and for all.

The Turks caught the Armenians by surprise and with the upper hand in WW I. The Kurds will not go quietly or as easily. That fight will be particularly bloody. Turkey is a member of NATO, meaning some generals in Belgium are going to face some hard decisions. Internally Turkey itself will be torn to pieces by those who, on one side want to become part of Western Europe and those on the other side whose hearts are with their ancient Muslim roots. Turkey will not likely emerge from such a war as we know it today.

There was a shred of evidence that even George W. Bush may have an inkling he's created a mess that could envelope the whole world. Last week he authorized doubling the size of our strategic oil reserves.

Good idea George, but not nearly enough. We need to go the rest of the way. A fierce storm is brewing. Now is the time to secure all loose gear and batten down our own hatches. Raise taxes, enact standby procedures for mandatory energy conservation. And no "duck and cover" BS. We need to start doing real things to prepare the kind of real shortages that will occur when oil supplies are disrupted.

It took two catastrophic world wars before Europeans got it all out of their system. Hopefully middle easterners can settle it with one.

In some earlier columns by the same author, there are concerns of Bush sanity. But he had an earlier analysis of other world players as well. When you cannot tell or make sense of anyone's (in)actions, that might be not for good.

Prof. Joan Cole is more concerned with Bush' motivations.

Any leaders of a failing war effort are always tempted by a strategy of escalation.
by das monde on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 08:48:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've suggested before that it's about the unitary executive. This is one of Cheney's fundamental goals, and it also plays to Shrub's narcissism because after an attack on Iran he goes from being a limp and failing pseudo-war preznit to one who's dealing with a full-blown historical crisis.

Psychologically, these people feed off power, chaos and death, and as far as they're concerned, the more of it the better.

Diplomacy seems to be a sideshow to the personal drama that's being played out in Washington. Iran is George's last attempt to make a difference. He knows that Iraq has fizzled, and he believes he need a more impressive legacy to take his place in the history books.

Of course attacking Iran will destroy the US as a world power. But at least George will have a real war and a real legacy. Right now, all he has to look forward to is creeping impeachment and a long slow withdrawal from Iraq, which is hardly the high-note ending he's hoping for.

The real question is how far the Repub moderates will go to make sure this doesn't happen.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:03:13 AM EST
Hell, if this is Bush' thinking the real question is how far the army staff will go to make sure it doesn't happen.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:06:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the TPM article by Josh Marshall that you link upthread
I've said this before. But perhaps it seems like hyperbole. So I'll say it again. The president's interests are now radically disjoined from the country's. We can handle a setback like Iraq. It really is a big disaster. But America will certainly surive it. President Bush -- in the sense of his legacy and historical record -- won't. It's all Iraq for him. And Iraq is all disaster. So, from his perspective (that is to say, through the prism of his interests rather than the country's -- which he probably can't separate) reckless gambits aimed at breaking out of this ever-tightening box make sense.
agrees with TBG:
Of course attacking Iran will destroy the US as a world power. But at least George will have a real war and a real legacy. Right now, all he has to look forward to is creeping impeachment and a long slow withdrawal from Iraq, which is hardly the high-note ending he's hoping for.


"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:38:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See also Maureen Dowd's column about Junior's inability to lose.

Bush has no personal concept of failure. If something goes wrong, someone else is to blame. If a project looks like failing and he's obviously responsible, the project can't be allowed to fail.

Hence Iran, because Iraq is already over.

We're dealing with a teenager here. Attacking Iran makes no sense in the adult world. If you're a teenager and trying to make a point, it makes perfect sense as a grand gesture.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:59:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. I normally don't like psychologising from a distance, but in Bush' case (and in his & Cheney's administration's case) the actions point to this kind of attitude. It's scary.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 09:05:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Moderate Repubs? Only the military brass can prevent it from happening.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:07:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In other words: "Put your head between your legs and ...".

I fear that there are too many "good" soldiers in the world.

by det on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:41:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that one danger is that there is, in a post-Iraq world, a "distorted/shifted centre."

There are some serious issues at stake in dealing with Iran and it's virtually impossible for anyone outside the rings of power (government and intelligence services) to make an evidence based case that Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons.

Likewise, it's very hard to prove in a deep sense that Iran having nuclear weapons is a good thing.

Because of all that, before the Iraq invasion, Iran would have been seen as a "problem." And worse possibly even a problem with a "bombing solution" attached. However, all the logistical issues would have been cause for pause. Even more, the taboo about pre-emptive action, about violating sovereignty was cause for pause.

But after Iraq? I fear that the bar for "military action" has been lowered. The mere fact that the case against Iran is better than the case was against Iraq is making it hard to deter the continual arguments about "taking serious action against Iran."

I find this worrying.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:09:30 AM EST
Incidentally, I'd like to put here on the record that I predicted that the US would bomb Iran before the Congressional Elections in 2006. I was wrong.

In my defence, I would suggest that if the Bush-Cheney brigade had realised how bad the Congressional Elections were going to turn out and if they had the ruthless streak that I can envision on occasion, I think they would have done it.

My view is that they thought they could win the elections anyway, so it wasn't worth taking the risk that an Iran bombing would be seen as cynical political manoeuvering. I always thought they were going to lose the elections, so I felt they needed to gamble to get things on track.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:14:14 AM EST
I think the reason they didn't attack last autumn was that they hadn't gotten around to putting forces in place, and that they were still hoping for things to get better in Iraq. They were always planning to do it, sooner or later, while Bush was in office.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 03:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what i hope is worrying the bush administration is the GLOBAL cog-diss reflecting their transparently self-confradictory position on nuclear energy.

we NEED it, because the honeywells and bechtels that are about to save us from coal-fired global warming are the luxiest lobbyists, but EVIL muslims are too irresponsible to be entrusted with it.

goes so well with compassionate conservatism, human rights, and democracy, right?

cheney is the nucleus of this...

i bet he never met a windmill he liked!

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 07:43:57 AM EST
I think they are going to do it before they go...and there will be no way back for USA for who ever comes in power for decades...as someone said here rightly before. They and their companions and corporations are still going to make huge money out of this chaos when they live stage. They'll probably do it even "for free" Because they are sociopaths and simply evil...
by vbo on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 08:27:46 AM EST
ok "when they leave stage"...
by vbo on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 08:29:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The mine-hunters Persée and Sagittarius, with their support and command ship, the Loire, have left Brest, heading to the north of the Indian Ocean. This force will cross in the area from February 15 to May 13, before returning home the next month. As the relations between the United States and Iran are more sensitive in this moment, the sending of the French ships intervenes within the framework of a usual deployment in the Gulf. "Every two years, a war force against mines is deployed in this area of the world in order to support the relations of co-operation and the navy of the United Arab Emirates, of Qatar, of Kuwait, of the Sultanate of Oman, Bahrain and of Pakistan", indicates the French Navy, whose capacities as regards anti-mine warfare are very appreciated since the war of the Gulf 1991. The Persée, Sagittarius and the Loire will take part, in particular, to two great exercises: MERCY 07 at the beginning of March with Pakistan and ARABIAN GAUNTLET, at the end of March, with Pakistan and Bahrain...

March: 15 French ships and 4700 sailors in the area :

Regarding the programmed deployments, in March, the French presence in Indian Ocean will reach a level not equalized since many years. Besides the force of war against mines, as from March, the French air and sea group will join the zone. It will include the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier, the destroyer Blas de Lezo (Spain), the frigates Cassard and Tourville, the nuclear attack submarine of Casabianca  and the  of supply and command ship Marne. This last one will be back on April 24 in Toulon and replaced by the Somme, whose arrival is envisaged at mid-March. Two weeks earlier, the Dupleix frigate will also join the zone.

At the end of the month, the ship will integrate the third French force deployed in the Indian Ocean and take part in the maritime antiterrorist operation Enduring Freedom. The TF 150 (which should pass under French command on April 4) will be composed, in March, of the Aconit frigate and sloop PM Her, this last one replacing the Cdt Birot, which sailed again Monday through the Suez Canal. The BCR VAR, being used as the base of the admiral ordering the forces of the Indian Ocean, will be him also on zone. Lastly, the school group of the navy, made up of the helicopter carrier Jeanne d' Arc and the frigate George Leygues, will start his return towards Brest and will be in Djibouti on April 1. On the whole, 15 French buildings will cross in the area in March, that is to say more than 4700 sailors (3900 except school group).

roughly translated from :
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=103741

it is interesting to notice that such a naval group has a major strike capacity (both nuclear and conventional) through aircrafts, cruise missiles and other missiles.

by oldfrog on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 08:31:16 AM EST
According to one of my former professors, the French deployed a large part of their fleet to the Middle East during the Iraqi invasion too. He saw it as a sign that they were more flexible in regards to US actions than their rhetoric suggested. (He suggested that the break between the US and continental Europe was more about White House hubris than fundamental differences.)
by Trond Ove on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 12:34:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well this is partly right. The French fleet headed home in mid-January 2003, when the French understood that the US meant business with Iraq and that the build-up wasn't meant up to only coerce Saddam to be even more "inspection-accepting".

This was "compensated" by a large involvement in Afghanistan (Enduring Freedom), the French naval air-force being "second" to the US to strike targets inside the country.

The actual build up is interesting : besides the mine-sweepers (Iran is expected to mine the Hormuz straight) and the carrier's strike capacity, France will partly relieve the US outside Somalia (TC150).

so on the whole your professor is right, the French are backing up the US, but on their own terms. Another interesting point is that the French are modernizing their Navy very rapidly, while the UK seems to be lagging after (except the construction of two modern carriers). Spain and Italy are improving their navies too. Round 2014 the European navy will have 4 modern carriers and two minor ones, a flotilla of stealth multimission frigates armed with cruise-missiles, several helicopter- and troop projection carriers and  about 18 nuclear submarines of which at least 6 will be of strategic importance.

by oldfrog on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 03:23:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we have gone beyond mere fear that the US might attack Iran. They will attack Iran, we are debating the consequences.

This administration has shown that not only are they comfortable with scaring the world into submission by playing the mad guy pulling on the pin of the grenade, "do as I say or we'll all die". Occasionally they feel the need to commit a bit of drive-by just to make them feel better.

Think about it. The Israeli invasion of Lebanon was a bust. This was a pre-condition for Plan A. So Plan B invovles the US going around Saudi, Egypt, Kuwait and all its other tame Sunni puppets stirring them up about the fact that, with Iraq going badly a Shi'ia ascendancy was occuring; blatantly asking for support in rooting out the menace at its source. Now we have a "surge" whose only concern seems to be with inflaming tensions in the Shi'ia enclave of Sad'r city whilst bolstering border patrols in case of "Iranian incursions".

They are not pouring petrol on the flames of the Iraqi civil war, they are not goading Iran into invading Iraq in support of Shi'ia brothers. Even the BBC last night, accepted that the US is nakedly formenting regional conflict. I'm quite sure that the same PNAC commentators who were certain that the US would be greeted with flowers and that the Iraqis would happily stand back whilst Halliburton looted the treasure are saying how Iran is going to be a walkover, that there will be no bad consequence from this madness. But why ? Why this whole belligerent nonsense ? Does Bush realise he will surely cross the Halys with this ? This isn't bringing about End-Times: Aside from knowing that even the WH thinks the fundies are nutters, it still requires a level of planning they are incapable of achieving. Is this still merely the simpleton pursuit of a west-leaning democracy in Iran and Iraq ?

The whole nuclear farrago is a confection whipped up by friends-of-aipac on behalf of preserving Israel's regional nuclear dominance. Sure, it might happen, but not in any timeframe that requires precipitate action. It is quite certain that the hoary cobwebbed spectre of Condi's "mushroom cloud" is being pushed out yet again to dangle before a still-hypnotically-compliant msm in order to frighten the public one more time (Judy Millar to ride the NYT over the precipice once more for olde tymes sake ?). But does the WH still believe Iran must be stopped and, more to the point, stopped now ? The Dems are still having issues with getting their act together in DC, is he moving whilst he still can ? Quite basically, what does he hope to gain from this ?

Sure, as LondonBear points out on Kos; with Perez claiming the cluster bombs were dropped on Lebanon by "rogue elements" is one left to wonder if "rogue elements" in Israel are now threatening to accidently deliberately nuke Tehran ? There is the possibility that the US is saving Israel's ass by conventionally attacking Iran to prevent Israel escalating to nuclear ?  Again, I think this requires a level of political-military awareness entirely absent in the WH, but it might be a subsidiary thread of coincident motivation.

So, I have a lot of questions and few answers. Everything they want to happen becomes less likely if they use the military option. Everything, everywhere actually becomes a lot, lot worse if they do this. But with the Senate only able to pass a neutered rebuke to the WH over the catastrophe in Iraq, the idea of preemptive action to save the US from its President's stupidity is impossible.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 08:42:10 AM EST
I agree with Helen, hoping that I am wrong. Besides I think there is a "cornered empire" syndrome about all this. Historical parallells (Napoleon, Hitler, Milosevic) tend to show that there is a tendency of such administrations to go to war in such situations despite the bad odds, which always ends up in nemesis.
by oldfrog on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 09:14:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
consortiumnews: Iran Clock Is Ticking

Military and intelligence sources continue to tell me that preparations are advancing for a war with Iran starting possibly as early as mid-to-late February. The sources offer some differences of opinion over whether Bush might cite a provocation from Iran or whether Israel will take the lead in launching air strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities. . . .

Both sources used the same word "crazy" in describing the plan to expand the war to Iran. The two sources, like others I have interviewed, said that attacking Iran could touch off a regional - and possibly global - conflagration.

I really, really hope these guys are wrong, but I wouldn't anything past them now.

by TGeraghty on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 09:14:40 AM EST


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