More fun statistics on 'culture' and 'prosperity'

by Jerome a Paris
Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 10:32:10 AM EST

Here's another sign of the 'dynamism' of Anglo-Saxon economies:


And another one: thye sure know how to enjoy themselves:

Haha. Funny Anglo-Saxons who make sure that we do not mistake "unemployment" (evil) with "worklessness" (that's dynamic and enthusiastic for you)

And we don't have no stinkin' safety net that would prevent young people from dynamically moving their way up!

We make sure that the poor earn really less than others, because that's the best way to make sure that we'll have more generations of poor people!

We make sure that no handouts go to the poor. Otherwise they will feel entitled and coddled.

Even better, we actually make sure that social transfers are wasted. Imagine that... running out of poor people!

And we are working hard on the next step: making sure the middle classes become poor too.

Sources: UNICEF (1, 2)

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brilliant..

everything (but poverty child rate is one of the best)

One comment though , the statistics of drunk teenager in Spain is clearly wrong. At 15 probably around 50 % have got three big drunk days...more than one day.

Probably they do not report because everybody knows that in Spain at 15 you must have got drunk one time but only one time (at maximum 2)..is a social common place.. so you can not believe this statistic. It is the so-calle "Sí yo llegue una vez borracho a casa cuando empece... " (and variants)... I would not trust it. It is what everybody expects a 15 year old guy to say.

Unless of course the 10% was only about 11 years-old or 13 years-old.. then it is could be true.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Feb 14th, 2007 at 04:14:47 PM EST
It's always nice to have some statistics to confirm our suspicions.

What is this all about, really?  Two things: dignity and happiness.

Hard to measure? yes!

Dignity = A personal evauation of your own value in society (family/friends/society)

Happiness = the 'real' pleasure you find in those evaluations.

IMHO That is all there is. Of course, these are perceptive ie personal value judgements. YOU DECIDE whether you have digniíty and/or happiness. The more you know, the more difficult it becomes. But that is no excuse for remaining stupid. Sorry....

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 14th, 2007 at 04:16:08 PM EST
see my diary about child welfare with the same sources. It's more worrisome for France, even if we rank better than the US/UK. But it seems that the main cause for that has to do with the current French school system than anything else.
by oldfrog on Wed Feb 14th, 2007 at 06:59:39 PM EST
In Figure 9 (the fifth figure in the diary), why is France's relative child poverty rate (28.7%), based on household incomes before taxes and transfers, higher than that of the U.S. (26.7%), Italy (24.6%) and Spain (21.4%), and so much higher than that of Germany (16.8%)?

And what the hell is going on in the UK (36.1%!)?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Wed Feb 14th, 2007 at 09:24:42 PM EST
What are 'transfers'? If they include social benefits, that could be an explanation.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 04:25:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
in econ speak, "transfers" are "social benefits" in political speak. both are payments by government to qualified persons as if to supplement earned income. qualification is generally understood to mean satisfying a means test for poverty.

such payments include vouchers (food, shelter, transpo), tax "credits" (reducing scheduled rates), pensions/annuity financed by the state, and "free" services such as medical care, meals, education.

economists tend to avoid measuring intangible benefits of a welfare state. that isn't to say that they don't exist.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 12:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't the relative child poverty rate just a measure of income inequality - it seems that with a wider income distribution then the percentage of those with less than fifty percent of median income is almost certain to be higher.

As for the with transfer one, does it include non-monetary transfers? Most important among those is medical care - poor families with children are far more likely to be eligible for free state provided health insurance (Medicaid) than others. If it doesn't then it is misleading, given that we're using percentage of median income, and in the US health care is a pretty big cost. In countries where you have universal health care this won't be an issue.

by MarekNYC on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 12:18:40 AM EST
Isn't the relative child poverty rate just a measure of income inequality - it seems that with a wider income distribution then the percentage of those with less than fifty percent of median income is almost certain to be higher.

I had the same question.

See this thread in In Wales' Social construction of poverty diary.

Also, from the Innocenti Report Card:

Is poverty to be defined as an absolute condition - the inability to purchase or consume a fixed minimum package of goods and services? Or is it to be defined as a relative state - the falling behind, by more than a certain degree, from the average income and life-style enjoyed by the rest of the society in
which one lives?

This Report Card opts for the latter concept.The poverty measured and analysed in these pages (with the exception of Figure 2) is the poverty of those whose `resources (material, cultural, and social) are so limited as to exclude them from the minimum acceptable way of life in the Member States in which they live'.  This definition, adopted by the European Union in 1984, is today the most commonly used definition in the industrialized world. For practical purposes, it is usually interpreted as `those whose incomes fall below half of the average income (as measured by the median) for the nation in which they live'.

<...>

It might be argued, therefore, that the concept of relative child poverty is merely measuring inequality. In support of this view, it could be said that the low levels of child poverty revealed in the Czech Republic or Hungary are attributable to nothing more than a degree of income equality, and that this is in itself no more than a passing legacy of the communism that also bequeathed so much misery and pollution before being overthrown by the popular will.

Conversely, the supposedly high level of child poverty in the United States might be said to reveal nothing more than the higher degree of income inequality which is what provides the incentives to make the United States what it is - the richest country on earth.

Counter-argument

The use of a relative definition of child poverty can, however, be just as vigorously defended.

The current review of the poverty line in the United States is being driven, in part, by the fact that over the last 40 years great changes have occurred in American society and in Americans' perceptions and expectations of what constitutes a minimum acceptable way of life (changes which can to some extent be captured in the fact that food now accounts for considerably less than one third of average household expenditure). This, by implication, is an admission that the poverty line ought to change as society becomes wealthier. This conceded, it can be argued that the necessary relationship between poverty lines and rising national wealth ought to be maintained in a way that is consistent and dependable, rather than arbitrary and uncertain.

It can further be argued that it is relative poverty which most accurately reflects the equality of opportunity that has long been the boast and battle-cry of the industrialized nations. No matter how complicated the debate about the relationships between poverty in childhood and prospects in later life (Box 4), few would seriously maintain that the sons and daughters of the poor have the same opportunities as the sons and daughters of the rich.

But perhaps the most important argument is that it is the level of relative poverty that most accurately captures what it is that we should be concerned about. Once economic development has progressed beyond a certain minimum level, the rub of the poverty problem - from the point of view of both the poor individual and of the societies in which they live - is not so much the effects of poverty in any absolute form but the effects of the contrast, daily perceived, between the lives of the poor and the lives of those around them. For practical purposes, the problem of poverty in the industrialized nations today is a problem of relative poverty.

While I am unsure on this question, the bold text is what I found most persuasive in favor of using relative poverty.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 12:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's a good argument, though I still think it's worth pointing out the assumptions and limitations of the statistic.

There are also serious issues with measuring poverty nationwide according to a single income level beyond the question of relative vs. absolute. Cost of living varies widely, and in a decentralized system like the US so do social services and benefits. Who is worse off - the family of four with 18K a year in NYC, or the same family in a small town in the Midwest. Seemingly the former, given the far higher CoL in NYC. However, the NYC family is much more likely to be living in public housing, thus negating the main difference in CoL, and they don't need a car. Plus the official 'poverty line' is based on a badly outdated basket of goods making it a bad joke.

by MarekNYC on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 02:22:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From UNICEF, I give you "absolute poverty", i.e. the proportion of the children under the powerty level for US children

There are fewer poor children in many European countries than in the US, even if you set the bar at the US poverty level.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 03:51:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is after taxes/transfers, right?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 04:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, I've been wondering about that question for a while. The message I draw from that table is that greater levels of equality and social benefits make a significant difference to the absolute standard of living at the bottom, but only up to a point. The first argument I got into on ET, way, way back at its beginnings, was over absolute SOL in Poland vs. the US - with me arguing that on an absolute level, poor people in Poland are poorer than poor people in the US, and that on that same absolute standard, a good, solidly above average income family in Poland lives at an SOL which would be considered quite poor in the US. What it also points to is how much relative poverty matters - the subjective feeling of that upper middle class family in Poland is going to be very different than an impoverished one with the same PPP income in America.
by MarekNYC on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 01:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Haha. Funny Anglo-Saxons who make sure that we do not mistake "unemployment" (evil) with "worklessness" (that's dynamic and enthusiastic for you)

What do you mean? Do you mean the makers of that graph, who are UNICEF people and thus quite likely not Anglo-Saxons? Or do you mean the general issue that 'unemployment' means only people officially recognised as part of the 'workforce', and not people who 'don't seek a job'/don't receive unemployment benefits/are invalids/retired, is something originating with Anglo-Saxons?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 04:27:17 AM EST
that these graphs show stunningly high levels of 'worklessness' amongst some categories of population, for countries that are usually described as 'dynamic', 'entrepreneurial' and with a flexible jobmarket that makes it possible for everybodyto find a job - and with low unemployment rates - the main argument used to say that the French and other continental economies are bankrupt.

So why are these high levels of 'worklessness' not a worry, not an indictment of these systems? Because these people are not counted in prominent statistics, they do not exist and do not matter, and thus cannot be used to criticse the system that breeds them.

It's a stunning cae of double standards.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 04:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
20% (1 in 5) household with children in the UK  have NO working adult! These are all working age people. Where are they in the unemployment statistics?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 04:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If they are not looking for job they are not in the "active" population and so are not "unemployed". They're also on benefits, obviously.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 04:47:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They're also on benefits, obviously.

Or deep in debt?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 05:08:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I have to say the UK has pretty extensive benefits starting with £70 per month for "child benefit", though these "workless" adults, if they are getting "jobseeker's allowance" would show up in the unemployment statistics.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 05:17:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Note also that child poverty, according to the chart in the diary, is 36% before social transfers, but dows to 20% after social transfers.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 05:18:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 05:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, I get it now -- I thought you criticise the word choices of the graph.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 05:42:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
when pretty much all these statistics show the U.S. as worse than the U.K, is why the U.K. topped the U.S, in the unhappy childhood ratings. I'm too busy to go back to that survey this morning, but I'm speculating that it has to do with social factors, like unsupportive parents, unsavory companions and, maybe, an inferior fashion sense?

All of this is most fascinating. Keep bringing us more, Jérôme.

by Matt in NYC on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 10:01:04 AM EST
And could there be a correlation between the unhappy childhood ratings and the apparently high number of UK teens who consume alcohol?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 10:42:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the teenage pregnancy rate?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 10:48:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the amount of alcohol consumed prior to conception?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 10:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Prozac?
by det on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 11:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More new graphs to play with!  Your diaries are always a gold mine.  Thanks, Jerome.  Although, clearly significant reform on the Continent and in America is necessary if we're to close the gap with England on heavy drinking.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 11:17:15 AM EST
to close the gap with England on heavy drinking.

We're working at it...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 05:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome, America has NEVER been a country that cares about child welfare. yes there have been individuals who have pushed for changes in laws etc, but as a culture its still the land of rugged individualism and Horatio Alger stories.  I dont see this changing in my lifetime, although after the current round of neo fascism  is over I do expect a period of isolationism and a turn to much more socialistic tendencies in our society. of course it will take time for the pendulum to swing, and i dont really expect major change until after we get out of the middle east ( at a serious loss of people and prestige) and  until we go thru some major economic shifts, although i think we are closer on that front. word from the states is that the layoffs and outsourcing in the US may refocus the 2008 elections on the working class. there is alot of raw anger in the heartland about lack of jobs, poor incomes, and no opportunities, and that will have serious effects on the future.


Life is not a dress rehearsal
by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 12:34:51 PM EST
There's a post by Elizabeth Warren over at TPM Cafe that's also relevant here (and everybody interested in issues of class and poverty in the US should be reading TPM Cafe's Warren Report). The thread also includes a fun stat posted by 'TG' on income growth 1947-79 vs. 1979-2005 - i.e. the heyday of the high tax, strong union, expanding welfare state vs. the current period of neolib orthodoxy.

Family Income Growth
Percentile
Years 20th 40th 60th 80th 95th
1947-79 2.3% 2.4% 2.5% 2.4% 2.4%
1979-05 0.2% 0.4% 0.7% 1.0% 1.5%

If you look at that what stands out to me is not just the familiar contrast of across the board income growth vs. growing inequality, but the stunning fact that even at the 95th percentile incomes have been growing much more slowly than in the earlier period - at a forty percent lower rate. That's pretty stunning. I'll try to dig up the stats later today, but I believe that the only group doing better in the neoliberal era are the top one percent. I think that one should characterize it as a system that is designed to help the top one, and especially the top one tenth of one percent of society, with some trickle down that steadily peters out as you go along the class gradient.

by MarekNYC on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 01:36:32 PM EST

I believe that the only group doing better in the neoliberal era are the top one percent. I think that one should characterize it as a system that is designed to help the top one, and especially the top one tenth of one percent of society, with some trickle down that steadily peters out as you go along the class gradient.

Exactly.

And France is resisting:

That last graph explains more than anything the permanent attacks against France in the business press.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 01:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Many countries have a relatively equitable distribution of wealth: Germany, Canada, Japan, Sweden, and, yes, France. All of those have Ginis hugging .3, compared with the USA's .47. And among those, Sweden is by far the most socialist, with the lowest Gini, highest taxes, highest government spending, lushest welfare, and strongest unions.

However, Sweden is also a success story. It has strong economic growth and low unemployment. Canada has the fastest economic growth in the G-8. Japan has had sluggish growth for 15 years, but is still associated with industriousness and productivity. In contrast, the only thing France can boast is high per-hour productivity; it has high unemployment and had slow economic growth until 2005. It also has a somewhat hierarchical culture, which makes it easy to characterize it as a cumbersome bureaucracy. The US bleeds way more money to administration than France - for example, it bleeds 7% of its GDP every year to health care waste - but it is too counterintuitive to be asserted without evidence.

Read my ruminations about news, policy, mathematics, and various and sundry things on Abstract Nonsense.

by Alon (alon_levy12@hotmail.com) on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 at 07:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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