European Tribune

Serbia condemns Kosovo plan

by vbo
Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 06:33:16 AM EST


Serbia condemns Kosovo plan
3.2.2007. 11:07:55

http://www.worldnewsaustralia.com.au/region.php?id=134520&region=3

UN envoy, Martti Ahtisaari, proposed the Kosovo breakaway plan. (Getty)
The United Nations has unveiled its long-awaited plan for Kosovo, raising hopes of independence among ethnic Albanians but drawing condemnation from Serbia.

UN envoy Martti Ahtisaari's plan for the southern Serbian province, which has been under UN administration for almost eight years, avoided the word "independence" while promising a multi-ethnic, self governing democracy.

Serbian President Boris Tadic slammed it as a de facto grant of independence, while Kosovo President Fatmir Sejdiu welcomed it for the same reason.

The plan said Kosovo would be a self-governing, multi-ethnic democracy with full respect for the rule of law and human rights.

"Kosovo shall be a multi-ethnic society, governing itself democratically and with full respect for the rule of law," said the envoy's proposal.

It also stressed conformity with "the highest level of internationally recognized human rights and fundamental freedoms ... which promotes the peaceful and prosperous existence of all its inhabitants."

The plan called for Kosovo to be allowed its "own, distinct, national symbols, including a flag, seal and anthem."

Tadic bluntly rejected the UN's vision for the disputed province, seen as the cradle of Serbian culture and religion and a lightning rod of nationalist sentiment in the former Yugoslav republic.

"Ahtisaari's plan paves the way for the independence of Kosovo. I told Mr Ahtisaari that neither Serbia nor I, as its president, will ever accept the independence of Kosovo," he said.

Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica refused to even meet Ahtissari when he presented his plan in Belgrade.

"Martti Ahtisaari has had no mandate to deal with the state status of Serbia and to encroach on its sovereignty and territorial integrity," Kostunica said.

But Kosovo's ethnic Albanian majority welcomed the plan as a major step toward realising their dream of an independent state.

President Sejdiu said his negotiation team was "deeply convinced" that the proposal would end with the independent state demanded by the province's majority community.

Diplomats and independent observers were also united in their conviction that Kosovo was on the road to full statehoood, regardless of Belgrade's strident opposition.

Observers believe the word "independence" was intentionally omitted to encourage new negotiations between the Serbian and Kosovo Albanian leadership.

This was expected to give the West more time to convince Serbia and its traditional Slav ally Russia of the merits of the settlement, particularly the rights it offers to Kosovo's estimated 100,000 Serbs, about 10 percent of the territory's population.

The tiny, landlocked province has been run by a UN mission (UNMIK) since the end of a 1998-1999 war between Serbian security forces and ethnic Albanian separatist guerillas.

The conflict was ended by a 78-day NATO bombing campaign which led to an ongoing peacekeeping mission. The two main ethnic communities remain bitterly divided, with most Serbs living in isolated enclaves.

Tensions most recently came to a head in March, 2004 when ethnic Albanian mobs rampaged through Serb enclaves, forcing thousands to flee their homes and razing historic Serbian Orthodox churches.

In Belgrade, Ahtisaari refused to discuss the issue of independence and urged both sides to return to the negotiating table.

He said there was still room for further compromise before he submitted his final proposal to the UN Security Council next month.

After Belgrade, Ahtisaari arrived in Pristina where security was tight amid fears that details of his proposal could spark inter-ethnic clashes.

Ahtisaari told reporters there that he was "not terribly optimistic" about the chances of a compromise being reached through talks, which he hoped would take place in Vienna from February 13.

"I will be very clear on the final status when I submit the proposal to the Security Council. There will be a clear definition of a status," he told reporters.

The United States welcomed the "fair and balanced" proposals put forward in the Ahtisaari plan, while the EU urged political leaders on both sides of the ethnic divide to give dialogue another chance.

"It is a blueprint for a stable, prosperous and multi-ethnic Kosovo," US State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

The German presidency of the EU said it "firmly supports" Ahtisaari's intention of holding additional talks and urged both sides to approach them "in a serious manner and without reservations."

The final proposal is expected to reach the UN Security Council after being submitted to Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, possibly by the end of March.
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As I previously said there will be no one in Serbia to sign "agreement" (this word really makes me laugh) on giving up Kosovo.
I am really curious if anybody in EU really thought that you can FORCE Serbs to simply give up on Kosovo. Obviously Americans think they can force anybody to do what ever they want but it lately looks like their fantasy ALL OVER THE WORLD.
What do you think will happen now?
Do you think Russians will come up with veto on Ahtisaari's list of USA wishes when it comes to UN? To be honest I don't think so. I never ever put too much hope on the Russian card. UN as such is USA service anyway and when it from time to time fails to give instant support to USA it is simply ignored. For the real situation on the field UN proclaimed "independence" really does not mean much. We all know what real independence means. Kosovo is occupied Serbian territory and will continue to be just that for decades...Even when NATO is not going to need military bases there but will have to have military presence to support "independence" that they proclaimed.  
How do you think Serbia will be punished (yet and) in addition to punishment it had to endure for almost two decades now?
When do you think someone will come with anything that even remotely looks like a solution for Balkan ex-YU countries? Something like more fair redefinition of all borders in this area?
What difference do you think will make internationally this proclamation of Kosovo "independence"? Do you agree for your country to recognize Kosovo as independent state?
If you agree what your arguments are for not allowing Serbs and Croats too to break from Muslims in Bosnia and make their independent state and would you support their peaceful move toward independence (referendum , proclamation of independence etc.)?


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Serbia's caretaker prime minister, Vojislav Koštunica, has urged parties trying to form a governing coalition after an inconclusive January election to take a hard line on relations with any state that recognises the independence of Kosovo.
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"The seceding province's debt servicing to international financial institutions and Paris and London club creditors would cost it between 50 and 100 million euros per year, UN officials say."

"Serbia currently foots most of these bills and might continue doing so to shore up its sovereignty claims", the report says, adding that the Serbian National Bank claims Kosovo's inherited share of Serbia's total external debt is currently at 7 percent.
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 The prime minister emphasized that in his view UN special Kosovo envoy Martti Ahtisaari had no mandate to deal with Serbia's state status or to "meddle in its sovereignty and territorial integrity, dividing the territory of the Republic of Serbia and altering its internationally recognised borders", the statement read.

"Ahtisaari was given the mandate only to deal with the status of Kosovo, and it is obvious that with his proposal he has overstepped the framework of that mandate", Koštunica further stated.

Koštunica believes Ahtisaari's proposal violates the UN Charter and principles of international law, rendering that proposal "illegitimate".
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WASHINGTON -- Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov says Moscow and Washington are in deep disagreement over Kosovo, Reuters reports.
..."A variant to impose what is unacceptable to any of the parties does not suit us," Lavrov said, according to Itar-Tass.
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BELGRADE -- "I told Ahtisaari that Serbia and I, as its president, will never accept Kosovo's independence", president Tadić said.

by vbo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 07:14:18 AM EST
More quotes:
http://www.beta.co.yu/default.asp?m=,new&j=en&h=English,en

Key provisions of the proposal grant Kosovo the right to negotiate and conclude international agreements, seek membership in international organizations, and have its own national symbols, including a flag, seal and anthem. In addition, ethnic and religious communities will enjoy special rights.
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It also states that:

  • Kosovo shall adopt a constitution that shall prescribe the legal and institutional mechanisms for the protection, promotion, and enforcement of human rights of all persons in Kosovo.

  • Kosovo shall have no territorial claims against, and shall seek no union with, any state or part of any state.

  • The international community shall supervise, monitor and have all necessary powers to ensure effective and efficient implementation of this settlement.

  • Kosovo and Serbia shall, in accordance with domestic and international norms and standards, take all measures necessary to determine and provide information regarding the identities, whereabouts, and fate of missing persons.

  • Municipalities in Kosovo shall have the right to inter-municipal and cross-border cooperation on matters of mutual interest in the exercise of their responsibilities.

  • The Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo, SOC, including its clergy and their affiliates, activities and property shall be afforded additional security and other protection for the full enjoyment of its rights, privileges and immunities, as set forth in Annex V of this settlement.

  • Immovable and movable property of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or the Republic of Serbia located within the territory of Kosovo at the time of this settlement shall pass to Kosovo.

  • A new professional and multi-ethnic Kosovo Security Force, KSF, shall be established, and shall develop a lightly armed component capable of specified security functions, in accordance with Annex VIII of this settlement.

  • An International Steering Group, ISG, comprising key international stakeholders shall appoint an International Civilian Representative, ICR, and will seek U.N. Security Council endorsement of the appointment. The ICR and the EU Special Representative, EUSR, appointed by the Council of the European Union, shall be the same person.

  • NATO shall establish an International Military Presence, IMP, to support implementation of this settlement, as set forth in Annex XI of this settlement.
----
Inependance , my ass.
by vbo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 07:27:11 AM EST
Kosovo is occupied Serbian territory and will continue to be just that for decades...

<...>

What difference do you think will make internationally this proclamation of Kosovo "independence"? Do you agree for your country to recognize Kosovo as independent state?

Since you've got all the answers, vbo, why are you asking us questions?

I respect your feelings and your right to take sides, but this diary is a bitter rant. I'm sorry, but I'm not recommending it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 07:49:11 AM EST
I am not asking you to recommend my diary. I simply do not care to be recommended, to be honest! I am asking you what do you think about situation??? I asked specific questions and hope to get answers. When I ask for same rights for Serbs (and Croats for that matter) in Bosnia ...I am ranting? How is that?
At the same time I am telling how I feel about it. You don't need to necessarily agree with me. I am not even asking for sympathy. I ask for arguments...facts! Do you have any?
Most important I want to know in case  you do not agree with me what are your arguments/facts and where you see LEGAL base for what you recommend in this complicated situation. Or you think it's as simple as occupying forces of Serbian land see it??? Take from Serbs - give it to Albanians! Everything is simple if one choose to see it so...
by vbo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 08:22:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is, vbo, that Serbia had a horrible leader in Milosevic, and the UN and international community is now extracting a pound of flesh from you. I guess these are the wages of crossing the US. I do think there are elements of unfairness when self-determination is applied inconsistently, and I do think that the Kosovo mess was once avoidable (at Ramboullet) but now that it happened and the two peoples have a great difficulty living together, the West is seeking the most expedient means possible. I can't help but think that this is all payback for war in Bosnia. Let's face it, that's what this is ALL about.

My only concern is that when everyone loses interest in this region in 20 years that the enmity will still be there, and we're just gearing up for another war, which is the history of the province in any case. Serbia will definitely have a longer memory than Ahtasaari. This needs to be addressed. I think also that were it not for the Kosovo War, which I think was the fault of the US, this problem would have been much much easier to solve.

Don't look for consistency from the international community. It's more about self-interest.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 09:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote;
The problem is, vbo, that Serbia had a horrible leader in Milosevic,
---
I can't agree more...Now tell me how would you like for USA to be judged by its horrible leader GW Bush? And for ever...and what if world simply forget anything else about USA but his governing?  

Quote;
I can't help but think that this is all payback for war in Bosnia. Let's face it, that's what this is ALL about.
---
I agree. It's revenge.

by vbo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 11:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe we will be judged for Bush. I'm sure we're already taking hits because of him.
by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 01:08:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed.

Of course, the America Bush represents has created arguably far more death of innocents and long-lasting damage in a volatile part of the world than Milosevic ever could have dreamed of.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 03:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's the way it always is.

In any case, Milosevic was no wilting flower. I'm sure his imagination contained more than the 80,000 or so he succeeded in killing.

He is definitely up in Bush and Saddam Hussein's league.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 04:55:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately, the genocide he and his proxies really did carry out was not the one that the US and Nato punished. The wrong Serbs ultimately were punished.

And now, Kosovo is a prime entrepot for transhipping illicit drugs, prostitution and illegal economic migrants from Southwestern and Central Asia into the EU all the while Nato and the UN are ultimately responsible for it's "protectorate". A protectorate which largley involves de facto protection of organized crime on behalf of the international community, and to the direct detriment of the EU. No wonder Ahtisaari wants to wash his hands of this.

Moral of the story to Europeans everywhere: Beware of Americans (whether they call themselves "center-left" and play saxophone, or whether they are more transparently fascist like the present regime in Washington) bearing gifts.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 05:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, Europeans can hardly blame any man with a saxophone for diplomatic decisions which led to the 1990s Yugoslavia fiasco.
by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 01:03:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In many ways, the break-up of Yugoslavia was a dream come true for American diplomacy - a crisis in the heart of Europe, which would be the source of instability for the foreseeable future and which divided EU member states in more ways than one.

It's no secret, for instance, that the Greeks, and this includes the Greek popular sentiment as well, sided with the Serbs. Greek irregulars were reported to have participated in Bosnia massacres, and flip over to Greek attitudes on "FYROM" (what a laugh that name) and Kosovo, and you'll see it would have been very hard for the EU to have a united front in this story, regardless of the facts (which, it turns out, were as dispensible in Western capitals as in those of the balkans), even if the core of the EU were as one.

Add to this the deep divisiveness of Germany's unilateral decision to prematurely recognize Croatia and Slovenia's independance - at loggerheads with France, the UK and George HW Bush's US- and thereby guarantee a bloodbath. When Germany recognized Tudjman's Croatia, and this beyond the historical precedence dating from WW2, it guaranteed that every Yugoslav Republic, in violent fashion, would also become independent.

Why necessarily violent? Look at the ethnic map (the sort of map, I might add, the Germans innovated themselves) of the area, and read the press accounts of the ethnic fervor at the time in the region. Hell, even little ol' me saw it first hand, witnessing more than one fight at the kiosk between folks buying Croatian-language papers and those buying Serb-language papers.

Kohl has a lot of blood in his hands. But this might not worry him much given all the money he tucked away as well.

"Understandably" then, the EU was hardly in a position to lead on this. Which is just the way one might well imagine a US government to like things. Keeps Europe weak, and accentuates their inability to build an independent and coherent foreign policy backed by a credible and independant military force (which only France today, really, has).

And if shepherded correctly, the resulting mess can be assured to be a gift that keeps on giving instability and rancor to Europeans for generations to follow.

Which is exactly what Kosovo is now.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 11:02:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's too much thinking for Clinton on this, really. He messed up Kosovo, but Europe messed up earlier. Consider that the US called Germany's recognition a mistake, and the US held off from recognizing the ex-Yugo's as long as possible.

As for Greece, there are stories that a handful of irregulars made it into Yugo, but so did Poles and Czechs on the Croatian side, Al-Qaeda in Bosnia, etc. And though sentiment in Greece was definitely against Kosovo, this wasn't the case in Bosnia, while all along the US and NATO were using Greek territory to execute the expeditions into Kosovo. They were coming up through Salonika.

I wrote about Greece and Macedonia somewhere else in this thread, but I believe in general, the Greeks took the same approach they always do. Anti-US in public opinion during the Kosovo campaign, while the gov't fell in line and did everything that NATO and the US asked.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 11:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're joking, right?

The first Bush admin may have got it right on Croatia initially (though its motivations are at best unclear on the matter) but when it came to Bosnia, the Americans were positively a destabilizing force.

The EU, seeing the possibility of war in Croatia spreading further, perhaps engulfing the whole of Yugoslavia, and also seeing that after Kohl mistakenly recognized Croatia and Slovenia, Bosnia and Macedonia would likely soon follow, brokered a key deal. The Bosniaques, as well as the Bosnian Serbs and Croatians, all agreed to a hard federal deal, three fully autonomous regions with a nominal seat of state at Sarajevo.

I remember hearing this plan (Lisbon accords) as creating something along the lines of Switzerland, and it is true, this part of the world looks fairly similar to the alpine federal republic (though true also the women are prettier in Bosnia than in Switzerland).

Guess which country got Alija Izetbegovic to back out of the deal and push for more - a lot more?

You guessed it. The US.

And we all know the results - disasterous for Izetbegovic's community in particular, and Bosnia (and all of Yugoslavia really) in general.

But not disasterous to the US really. A cheap way to get one of those trifectas another US president was fond of talking about: maintain instability on the doorstep to Europe, score points with an Islamic world whose oil was not indispensable, and look like you were pushing forth those "great" Wilsonian ideals of "freedom" and "self-determiniation," ideals of course best put into action a continent or two away.

So it is a bit cheeky to assert that the US did its best to avoid bloodshed in the former Yugoslavia, its noble intentions to recognize no one misunderstood.

I think Americans, and in particular, the American left, would do well to look beyond the rhetoric of their various governments and politicos and stop assuming that its intentions are pure, even regarding a Europe whose political weakness is in American strategic interests. And this was true when Clinton was president every bit as much as when either Bush was in there.

The only thing which has changed is that the increasing weakness of the American position has made its universalist rhetoric all the more threadbare, transparent, Brezhnevian.


"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 12:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FYI, UpstateNY has posted extensive criticism of the US diplomacy in Bosnia under Albright and Rubin in other threads.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 12:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dang, I gotta know about this choir stuff before I start preaching to it.

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 01:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to go back and reread. That was James Baker that scuppered the peace accords. I thought we were talking about Clinton, here.

Seriously, Clinton wasn't even in office until 1993. Those accords were signed in early 1992.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 02:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm refering to the first Bush administration wheh talking about German recognition of Slovenia and of Croatia, as well as the torpedoing of the Lisbon accords (which the US embassador Zimmerman pulled off, not Baker - Baker's handiwork was the Vance-Owens plan, which came later, when the hostilities - which the US helped start - had already begun). I'm sorry if my language is unclear above as to who gets the blame in terms of the administration in question, but I do think I refered to the first Bush administation when speaking of Lisbon, not Clinton.

It was Izitbegovic's rejection of Lisbon which ultimately started the war in Bosnia. And it was ambassador Zimmerman who directly got that to happen, getting the Islamic radical and fascist Izitbegovic to torpedo Lisbon by withdrawing support the latter had initially extended. Americans are quite comfortable working with right-wing autocrats, and they found one in Sarajevo.

Of course, this wasn't the only mess Clinton inherited from the previous administration, much as the US president in 2009 will inherit messes. Messes are what America is good at creating, and given the hollowing out of America's productive capacity, it may now be its biggest export.

But it would be a mistake to say Clinton's foreign policy did any better or cleaned up any of these messes his predecessor had left for him. And, in Kosovo, he added arguably an even bigger mess, one the UN and the EU will be stuck with for some time to come.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 04:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it would be a mistake to say Clinton's foreign policy did any better or cleaned up any of these messes his predecessor had left for him. And, in Kosovo, he added arguably an even bigger mess, one the UN and the EU will be stuck with for some time to come

You're kidding, right? Bosnia is much, much better. I'd say that Kosovo is too (economic basket case where the ten percent minority is being screwed by the ninety percent majority beats the reverse). And if you're going to call the Izetbegovic  a fascist and religious radical, then you should do the same for all the leaders -Serb, Croat or Bosniak. Do you think we shouldn't have dealt with any of them? America didn't create this mess anymore than Germany or France did. Eventually they cleaned it up.

Your comments on the motivations behind US Yugo policy in the nineties are also completely off base. I had a reasonably close view as I was working at a DC foreign policy think tank in the mid nineties. The main reason for the hostility towards Serbia was outrage over its war crimes, not any sort of Machiavellian realpolitik. It was the advocates of the latter in fact who wanted the US to not play any role in the post Yugo wars.

by MarekNYC on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 04:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No illusions about any of the parties, especially Tudjman, but I single Izitbegovic out here for the simple reason that he usually gets kid-glove treatment, which given his Nazi-sympathizing past (the sort that gets Western European leaders ostracized) is sort of ironic. (Not to mention he was tragically out of step with the people he purported to represent.)

Bosnia may be much much better today, but this doesn't necessarily mean anything; I certainly wouldn't expect a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument from you on the subject, if anything, Clinton's great achievement is that he happened to be in power when the carnage finally ran its course. And the fact of the matter is that there is relative peace there thanks in no small part due to peacekeepers, with the Dayton accords not being all that dissimilar to the Lisbon accords which the US had done so much to undermine.

I am curious your take on what US motivations were, given you worked in a DC think-tank at the time, when the first Bush administration helped nix that accord. At the time, the Serbs had not engaged in any war crimes in Bosnia yet, and what was happening in Croatia at the time was quite ambiguous, and a two-way street, so this context of outrage at Serbian atrocities you give is somewhat misplaced. Those atrocities did take place, but the US had already acted to help start the hostilities by then.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaking from my memory, the beginning of the open war in Croatia was not at all (at least seen as) ambiguous, because it involved a large-scale JNA offensive, inclusive shelling of major cities, with ensuing David-and-Goliath image. But with hindsight, the tit-for-tat violence and massacres and ethnic cleansing went on before, during and after on both sides.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No illusions about any of the parties, especially Tudjman, but I single Izitbegovic out here for the simple reason that he usually gets kid-glove treatment, which given his Nazi-sympathizing past (the sort that gets Western European leaders ostracized) is sort of ironic.

Nothing ironic about it. Past Nazi sympathes are trumped by being the leader of the group which was the greatest victim and which committed the least atrocities. Before operation Storm on the other hand the Serbs were the perpetrators of by far the greatest number of war crimes and victims of the least. And if we're talking about past sympathies Tudjman was an anti-fascist Partisan during WWII.

In any case how far do you want to take the 'past sympathies' argument. You're French, right? As is well known Mitterrand had fascist sympathies in his youth, less well known is the fact that Chirac had OAS ones. A large percentage of left wing leaders in Europe were radical left sympathizers at some time - depending on their age and taste Stalin or Mao or Trotsky. Who do you prefer - Jospin the ex-Trotskyist or Tony Blair? Does Chirac's viciously colonialist early views make him as noxious as Bush in the present context? The anti-war left tends to prize Senator Byrd and hate Senator Lieberman. The former was a KKK organizer and later a diehard supporter of Jim Crow in his early Senate career, the latter was a Freedom Rider.

I am curious your take on what US motivations were, given you worked in a DC think-tank at the time, when the first Bush administration helped nix that accord. At the time, the Serbs had not engaged in any war crimes in Bosnia yet, and what was happening in Croatia at the time was quite ambiguous, and a two-way street, so this context of outrage at Serbian atrocities you give is somewhat misplaced. Those atrocities did take place, but the US had already acted to help start the hostilities by then.

I was in college during the early nineties, my think tank time was in the mid nineties, so no special insight on the Bush I admin.  However, by my time in DC the main force pushing against support for the Bosnians, and advocating a hands off policy were the Bush I alums and the right wing of the Republican congressional party along with some of the old guard Dem establishment e.g. Christopher and some old guard leftists. On the other side was a very mixed bag of people - younger left-liberals, most hawkish dems, and a handful of Repubs (particularly Dole). Lots of moral outrage going on, Rwanda added fuel to the fire among many in the left-liberal group who saw it as an outrageous moral disaster and worried that Bosnia would be a more slow motion version.

by MarekNYC on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well again a bit of context and timeline issues here. When Ambassador Zimmerman got Izitbegovic to withdraw support for the Lisbon accords, it was in the winter of '01-'02. No Serbian atrocities yet, at least not in Bosnia, and those that occured in Croatia were accompanied by acts, by Croatians, of similar .

At the time, there was a cease-fire in the war for the Croatian seccession, a war where hindsight shows us there were really no clear good guys, whatever we might have thought at the time. It was in fact the cease-fire which largely held, up to the point when Milosevic gave up the Krajina serbs.

So if Lisbon had held, arguably the war would have not occured in Bosnia. And what's more, the Krajina campaign in '95, also a terrible bloodshed, would also not have happened. (And in fact the Dayton accords are not terribly dissimilar to the EU-brokered Lisbon accords from 1995 although far less favorable the former to Bosniaques.)

Really then the central question comes down to why the US Ambassador to Yugoslavia at the time did his very best to get the Bosniaque leader to pull out of the accord. This is the key element of what was to follow, and American policy objectives very much pivoted on this.

What follows is largely irrelevant in fact, much of it pure end-game, with lots of innocent lives lost in the process.

No arguments from me about either Mitterand or Chirac, certainly not the latter, though it is really hard to measure any person in Europe on the basis of what they might have more or less passively done during the war. This being said, very few Nazi officers, or as is the case with Izitbegovic, people who actively recruited others to work with the Nazis, got very far without having their reputations besmirched, and rightfully so. So we see a Bousquet or a Waldheim suffer for their past. Not so Izitbegovic, and I hope I can be excused for wondering why this is the case.

As for having been on the left sympathizers of Trotsky or others, I certainly have a bit more sympathy for these than for fascist sympathizers - quite simply, I know what side I'm on. (And so does Tony Blair - and it's not my side.)

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 06:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No arguments from me about either Mitterand or Chirac, certainly not the latter, though it is really hard to measure any person in Europe on the basis of what they might have more or less passively done during the war. This being said, very few Nazi officers, or as is the case with Izitbegovic, people who actively recruited others to work with the Nazis, got very far without having their reputations besmirched, and rightfully so.

Besmirched when? Postwar West Germany was riddled with ex-Nazis. The second most powerful man under Adenauer was the guy who wrote the Nuremberg Laws. One of Adenauer's ministers wasn't only a Nazi but a major war criminal and ex participant in the Beer Hall putsch, many others were ex party members. The German army was created by ex Wehrmacht officers with the guy who directed anti-partisan operations in Eastern Europe playing a major role. In France most senior civil servants backed Vichy, and not just out of opportunism.  Few were purged after the war (basically only those who hadn't switched sides) French historians avoided that unpleasant fact before the eighties - in fact the government and most historians sought to suppress it e.g. the reaction to Paxton's groundbreaking study that came out in the early seventies or Ophuls' Le Chagrin et la pitie.

As for having been on the left sympathizers of Trotsky or others, I certainly have a bit more sympathy for these than for fascist sympathizers - quite simply, I know what side I'm on. (And so does Tony Blair - and it's not my side.)

Ex-sympathizers of totalitarian leftism may be on my side now, but current ones aren't. I think we went over this re: Pinochet and Castro - given that I view those two as equivalent you can imagine what I think of liking Mao. As I've explained in the past I have more sympathy for Communists sixty or eighty years ago than I do for fascists of that time. I don't for any espoused any variant of communism in the past few decades. For me democracy and political freedom trump economic justice. Blair limits his violent revolutionary dreams to foreign countries, communists want that plus the same at home, so in the abstract Blair's a lesser evil, though able to do far more harm in reality due to his greater power.

by MarekNYC on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 06:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, even if it took until the sixties and some help from East German propaganda, I think the reputations of Globke, Oberländer & co were besmirched. But tainted top officials in France (and Italy) is another matter.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 7th, 2007 at 08:49:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with most everything you wrote but this one is a subject of debate.

Tudjman' past is multi-colored, and it includes an Ustashe stint. The partisan side came later.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 10:16:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
!?!?!? When was that? There wasn't much time for it between his school time and joining the Partisans right in the summer of 1941. Maybe you confused his later history revisionism with his past?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 7th, 2007 at 09:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a biohistory on Tudjman that I have to consult. Unfortunately, it's in my office. And today I am working from home, thankfully. I'll get back to you.
by Upstate NY on Wed Feb 7th, 2007 at 11:11:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
Eventually they cleaned it up.
---
You call this clean?
Tell me exactly WHAT is better in Bosnia or Kosovo...comparing to say Serbia  ...Bare in mind that it's almost 16 years ago when it was "worse"... My Muslim   friend (actually few of them) has been there few months ago and they were astonished with how poor people are and how miserably they live. They went through Serbia (Belgrade) and said that Belgrade is New York comparing to Sarajevo. Not to mention smaller cities like Zenica for example.
by vbo on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 09:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First off, as for American "messes," I don't think you're using the right terminology. America engages what a good empire should engage in, "Divide and Conquer." People seem to forget that this is an actual viable strategy for a country.

But also think that America's boogeyman status in Europe and the world is often too easy an excuse for Europeans. Actually, especially for Europeans since so often American and European interests overlap, and when that happens you hear nary a peep from the continent. Iraq is different, the US and the UK decided to go it alone, mainly. And certainly, the arrows of blame travel over water. But even in Iraq, you have to recognize that certain countries in Europe had massive interests in trade and infrastructure build out, including deals in currency denomination.

Maybe I'm just cynical.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:13:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on UNY, M was the milk of human kindness.<Snarkus Maximus>

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins
by EricC on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 07:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As is World number ONE war criminal GW Bush! 700 000 dead in Iraq ILEGAL WAR and counting...
Let's cut of USA and divide it to the pieces!
by vbo on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 09:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
Kosovo is occupied Serbian territory and will continue to be just that for decades...
---
How am I wrong on this one? Serbian forces (police and Army) DO NOT CONTROLE KOSOVO all though it's in internationally recognized borders of Serbia. What is it if not occupation? Also Serbian institutions and companies are not able to work on Kosovo territories...Serbs are NOT represented in any way...and first of all they are not safe in any way...
by vbo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 08:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't say you were wrong in what you just quoted - I said: since you know everything, why are you asking us questions?

You assume everyone is against you and you demand arguments and facts. But your tone is so aggressive - if you want a discussion, try another way.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 09:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hardly ever use ratings on here but afew deserves at the best a '2' - for his hypocritical and rather nasty post.

A lot of people who start their diaries/threads on here seem have got all the answers too, to begin with Jerome who knows what to do with each and every drop of oil, especially Russian oil. I'm really looking forward to reading another afew's reprimand directed at them.

I respect your feelings blah blah but 'm not recommending it = i don't want anybody to read what you've written on here. Try Mills&Boons novels then - they are full of lovely British ladies and nice gorgeous gentlemen who never go bitter.

Vbo's thread  definitely doesn't need your recommendation - it's one of the most lively diaries for ages. I don't know much on this so read it with interest.

Oh, and have you ever heard about any sympathy towards people who lost their country (and basically got nothing instead - not everybody is as lucky as Russians who got their beloved Russia instead of ugly bastardy USSR)?

by lana on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 03:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I said is neither hypocritical nor nasty. I respect vbo's feelings but don't like her diary. I did not say no one should read it, nor that it needed my recommendation to get read. I said I didn't recommend it, and it's my right to say that.

Given the number of insulting, trollish, ethnic-superiority comments you have made in the past, lana, I guess you know all about how ratings should work. So rate me any way you like.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 03:42:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bearing in mind that the first diary i've run into on this site had been devoted to a lively discussion if the words Slavonic/Slavic derive from Slave - with  a happy rasist collective answer 'But of course!' (and the British voices weren't the weakest ones in that mocking chorus), I guess you as a British do know better about ethnic superiority, after all, the UK is a long-living example of ethnic equality

And i never care how i am rated, especially if i am troll-rated by local trolls

by lana on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 04:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is "slave" that is derived from "slav". You can deny this as much as you want, but that doesn't make the the latin etymology any less correct.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 05:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Vikings and Ottoman Turks caused it all.

The slavish thing, of course.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 07:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ottoman Turks? They didn't even exist back then.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 7th, 2007 at 09:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I will keep puting some quotes here for your information  anyway :

http://www.blic.co.yu/

Agreement with USA needed

Moscow is aware that its vision of solution for Kosovo is unacceptable so the final decision of Russia regarding Kosovo status will depend on the agreement with USA about other problems, states Moscow daily 'Nezavisimaya Gazeta'.

---
vbo:
Like we did not expect this...They all threat small nation like change (coins)...
----

by vbo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 08:48:30 AM EST
I don't personally like the Ahtisaari plan. I'm not at all sure what is gained by forcing the issue at this moment.

My own view is that we are now at a point where the whole "breakup of Yugoslavia" is the result of existing real tensions, plus several miscalculations by various parties, plus several malicious actions by various more parties over a long period of years.

I won't start a flamewar by trying to assign blame, because that's not really my point here.

The point is, it's a big mess and to me, it's about taking "least worst" options forward.

For me, one of the "least worst" options is to keep fudging the Kosovo question. Attempting a resolution doesn't feel like a useful action at this time.

The strength of vbo's feelings are clear and I think they represent well the feelings of many Serbs. At the same time, the feelings of many Kosovar Albanians are equally strong.

I don't think it is peacefully possible to go back to how things were (Kosovo as just another part of Serbia) but I don't either think there is much to be gained from grinding Serbia's face in the notion of full Kosovo independence at this time.

(Even if I think that it is likely that some form of independent government in Kosovo, as in Scotland and many other places is now quite unavoidable in the long term.)

Thus, my own, ignorant view is to keep fudging it. Keep it all "unresolved" and work on the prosperity and general stability of the region. If you can get to the point where Serbia and Kosovo are coming up for EU membership, complete with Schengen etc. maybe you can take the sting out of "home rule for Kosovo" at that time.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 09:22:06 AM EST
The flip argument is that the region has turned into an economic basket case and that its lack of independence is what prevents it from ever inching toward the EU. Personally I don't buy this argument, given the state of the current Kosovo Albanian leadership.

But I do concur with you that the best option is the least execrable way forward.

I always shake my head when people opt for war over diplomatic agreements. Because the aftermath of war makes it impossible to negotiate on terms which do not cause resentment in the losing side. I think the Serbs would have been better served hanging low in Bosnia and Croatia. There would have been international condemnation for poor treatment of Serb minorities in Bosnia and the Krajina. However, given the way they took up arms, Serbs were destined to lose any sympathy in the Western Press, and so they played it wrong. If you're going to take up arms, wether in self defense, or as a preemptive attempt to secure territory, or even in a counterinsurgent crackdown as in Kosovo, you better make sure your actions are validated by the US and other countries.

Jutice is a mutually agreed upon concept, not an ideological one to be applied independently. I think the US if finding that out today in other parts of the world.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 09:49:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're going to take up arms, wether in self defense, or as a preemptive attempt to secure territory

I note that the initial offensive of the Krajina Serb paramilitaries was more than that, it was also an attack on neighbouring ethnic-Croatian-majority areas, going up to 50 kilometres outward, and attacking definitely non-military targets. Otherwise, I agree with the general tenor of your comment.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 02:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that Vukovar was a Serb disgrace, but the issue of who attacked first is both controversial and perhaps somewhat irrelevant since clearly they were ready to go at it. From the Serb side, they point to the highly inflammatory and discriminatory racial purity law that went into effect soon after Croatia's declaration of independence. There were also smaller skirmishes before the Serbs moved the military guns in and destroyed much of Western Slavonia.

The Serbs couldn't see how they were being baited. Both in the Krajina and in Kosovo, they were being practically encouraged to begin their military onslaughts. They gave others the pretext to move Serbs off those lands. That seems to be how it works.

Bosnia, on the other hand, was completely different since the Serbs went overboard and not only cleansed a huge number of Muslims, but also they did so in a clear attempt to redraw the boundaries of the country.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 03:33:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that Vukovar was a Serb disgrace

I haven't just meant Vukovar and Western Slavonia. In fact I was thinking of the Zadar area (which I know more closely), which for the most part didn't end up as permanent land-taking but one big push followed by a pullback from 90% of the overran territory. But there were longer-term expansionary forays also in the Karlovac area.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 03:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you. Premature solution at the expense of Serbs only will recreate future tensions in this region.
I don't know much about Balkans and its wars and cannot take any side. vbo thinks that Russia will not help vetoing Ahtisaari plan. But I would not say so. Of course Russia will takes decision keeping in myind broader picture of her relations with the West, interests of Abkhazs, Ossetians and only then she will consider what think in Belgrade.
Don't take it too close to heart - Russia in XIX century had waged lenghty expensive bloody wars on behalf of various Balkan nations against Ottoman Turkey - without any benefits, all profits  and contracts went to Berlin, Paris and London who were economically stronger than Russia. Even supposedly pro Russian Yugoslav leader Mr Milosevic was known not to consult Moscow on any major decisions in numerous conflicts he waged and was playing with the West (secret deals, ceasfires etc) playing big powers against each other till the West have united against him and overthrew his regime.
by FarEasterner on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 09:51:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kosovo :

Albanians: 88%
Serbs: 7%
Turks: 1%
Others: 4%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

Serbias's claim to Kosovo which was lost to the Turks 1459 is ridiculous today. The population of Kosovo doesn't want to belong to Serbia. That's the primary thing, the only thing that should count.

Get over it.

by oldfrog on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 12:49:44 PM EST
If you cut up Serbia so easily, what about cutting up Kosovo?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 01:56:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If we are here, what about the Serb Krajinas that declared themselves independent of Croatia? With local majority support? Did you support their existence? Would you have told Croats to "get over it"?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 02:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the RSK wasn't sustainable and more a war product than anything else. Today's Kosovo has become historically Albanian, when and where can be disputed, but it is a fact. If Montenegro can become independent, why can't Kosovo become it ? For pure nationalistic ideology, probably.

Kosovo will probably join Albania, and in 30 years from now all those small republics will be member of the EU, with their flags and their stamps, but trade with eachother through open borders.

Serbia's fight is anachronistic as much as Greece's standpoints about Macedonia.

by oldfrog on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 03:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean by "unsustainable"? That without international backing, it was desitned to be ethnically cleansed by a US-supported Croatian Army?

What do you mean by war product -- aint's the present Kosovo a war product?

Ain't it an undeniable fact that the Krajinas have become historically Serb, and that even earlier than Kosovo became Albanian-majority?

Let's not dvelve into the intricacies of the Montenegrin question here, I have done that in a diary back then.

You are very optimistic about all those small peaceful EU-member states, an optimism exposing ignorance of Balkans history. Borders have been re-drawn there several times in the past 150 years, but the grievances have led to new wars again and again.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 03:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Krajina means border. It's marshland. It has been scarcely populated by diverse ethnic groups during history to maintain outposts.

It collapsed of itself when the Serbs moved out after the war. There are no viable claims today.

by oldfrog on Sun Feb 4th, 2007 at 07:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Moved out?

I think that's a craven way to put it, unless you're unaware of how it happened.

Hundreds of thousands were ethnically cleansed from that region in Operation Storm which was run by Agim Ceku, the current PM of Kosovo. Many were killed, raped, murdered, thousands.

You call that moving out?

There are war criminals who are being sought today because of that offensive.

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 01:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Krajina means border.

So what?

It's marshland.

No, it's not. Take a look at a map if you don't believe someone who was there.

It has been scarcely populated by diverse ethnic groups during history to maintain outposts.

So what? That was centuries ago anyway.

It collapsed of itself when the Serbs moved out after the war.

No, the Serbs didn't 'move out' miraculously, they (about 400,000 of them) were ethnic cleansed in a grand plan, and Croatian militaries are sitting in Belgrade or sought after for plotting & executing that. And after the fighting troops came intel units who marked houses "Srbe" with white chalk or paint, and after them explosives units who blew up each so that they won't have much incentives to return. I have been there shortly after, I have seen the empty remains of villages , I have seen wall ruins in Croatian-majority villages and towns with the "Srbe" marking still visible, and I have talked to Croatian acquaintainces who have witnessed it.

Your dismissive tone combined with your uninformedness makes me sick.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 06:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and Croatian militaries are sitting in Belgrade

I meant Hague.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 09:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And sadly it was accepted as a fait accompli by the outside world, or maybe worse inspite of a few more recent trials.
by observer393 on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 11:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't condone ethnic cleansing and I don't mean that the Croats are without blame far from that. But to paint the Serbs as "victims" is ridiculous.

I just checked some facts on wikipedia, thus my post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_Babi%C4%87

Nobody thought at that time that the "republic" had a reason to historically exist, except of course the Serb nationalists.

Around August 1991, the leadership of the Serbian Krajina, and that of Serbia, allegedly agreed to embark on what war crimes prosecutors would later describe as a "joint criminal enterprise"[1][2] . This consisted of permanently and forcibly removing the non-Serb population of Krajina in order to make them part of a new Serb-dominated state. The leaders are documented to have included Milan Babic, and other Krajina Serb figures such as Milan Martic, the Serbian militia leader Vojislav Šešelj and Yugoslav Army commanders including General Ratko Mladic, who was at the time the commander of JNA forces in Croatia.

According to testimony given by Babic in his subsequent war crimes trial, during the summer of 1991 the Serbian secret police--under Miloševic's command--set up "a parallel structure of state security and the police of Krajina and units commanded by the state security of Serbia". Shadowy groups of paramilitaries with names such as the "Vukovi sa Vucjaka" ("Wolves from Vucjak") and the "Beli Orlovi" ("White Eagles"), funded by the Serbian secret police, were also a key component of this structure.

A wider-scale war was launched in August 1991. Over the following months, a large area of territory, amounting to a third of Croatia, was seized by the Serbs. The non-Serbian population suffered heavily, fleeing or evicted with numerous slaying, leading to ethnic cleansing. The Serbs nonetheless, continued their land grabbing and killing sprees. The bulk of the fighting occurred between August and December 1991, during which time approximately 80,000 Croats and Muslims were expelled (and some were killed). Many more died and or were deplaced in fighting in eastern Slavonia (this territory along the Croatian/Serbian border is not part of the Krajina, and it was the JNA that was the principal actor in that part of the conflict). The score by then, in the undeclared war against Croatia, was 2,200 Croats killed, 140,000 refugees, razed villages, shelled towns, destroyed cultural monuments, churches, hospitals, old people's homes, kindergartens. TV transmitters were also destroyed, cameramen and journalists of the Croatian Radio and Television were killed.

Map of the territory held by the RSK, circa 1992-1995On December 19, 1991, the SAO Krajina proclaimed itself the Republic of Serbian Krajina. On February 26, 1992, the SAO Western Slavonia and SAO Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem were added to the RSK, which initially had only encompassed the territories within the SAO Krajina. The RSK occupied an area of some 17,028 km² at its greatest extent. Croatia then was just beginning to form an army, their main defenders, local police, were overpowered by the JNA military supported Krajina Serbs. The RSK was located entirely inland, but they soon started advancing deeper into Croatian territory, expelling or killing Croatians as they went, and burning towns and villages. They shelled the Croatian coastal town of Zadar, killing over 80 people in nearby areas and damaging the Maslenica bridge that connected north and south Croatia. They also tried to overtake Šibenik, but the defenders successfully saved the city from the JNA, but not before Chetniks bombed the main theater. The city of Vukovar, however, was completely devastated by Chetnik attacks. Vukovar eventually fell; the town that had for months warded off Serb attack and destroyed its elite units. 2,000 defenders of Vukovar and civilians were killed, 800 went missing and 42,000 were forced into exile. The wounded were taken from Vukovar Hospital to Ovcara near Vukovar where they were executed.

who are you defending here, DoDo ? the poor Serbs ?

What I know of the only supporter of the "Republic of Serbian Krajina Government" in Exile is Vladimir Zhirinovsky...

then if some Croatian war criminals end up at the Hague, I have nothing against it.

The original post was to compare self determination in Kosovo and Krajina. My point was that Kosovo can be considered so much culturally different today from Serbia that an independence can be considered as possible and could even be ratified by the UN.

Krajina was nothing but a phantasmagoria
in some Serb nationalists expansion dreams. Even the current Serbian government see it this way today.

I might have been dismissive, but hardly uninformed.

by oldfrog on Mon Feb 5th, 2007 at 11:31:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is WHY Serbs took action NOT to stay in INDEPENDANT Croatia after you recognized it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina

Between 1939-1941, in an attempt to resolve the Croat-Serb political and social antagonism in the first Yugoslavia, an autonomous Banovina of Croatia was created incorporating (amongst other territories) much of the former Military Frontier as well as parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In 1941, the axis powers invaded Yugoslavia and in the aftermath the Independent State of Croatia (which included whole of today's Bosnia and Herzegovina and parts of Serbia (Srem) as well) was declared. The Ustasha (who were allegedly behind the assassination of the Serbian king of Yugoslavia were installed by the Germans as rulers of the new country and promptly pursued a genocidal policy of persecution of Serbs, Jews and Croats (from opposition groups) leading to hundreds of thousands being killed.
---
And  Oldfrog do not talk about things that you don't understand. There is a whole generation of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia that never had a chance to know their granddads.

---
Quotes:
...TV transmitters were also destroyed; cameramen and journalists of the Croatian Radio and Television were killed.
---
Well this one is NATO specialty as we all can remember it!
Or is it tactic from any military book?

Quote:
and damaging the Maslenica bridge that connected north and south Croatia.
---
Wait...this also looks like NATO tactic in Serbia. Are Serbian bridges excluded somehow?

Quote:
...the city of Vukovar, however, was completely devastated by Chetnik attacks.
---
This whole quote of yours is DEFINITELY biased and there for should be disqualified because if someone calls JNA "chetniks" that person either do not know what he is talking about or is malicious.
---
Quote:
I might have been dismissive, but hardly uninformed.
---
You are bad informed and also malicious.

Quote:
The original post was to compare self determination in Kosovo and Krajina. My point was that Kosovo can be considered so much culturally different today from Serbia that independence can be considered as possible and could even be ratified by the UN.
---
Self determination is self determination and it should be allowed to anyone who does not WANT to live in specific state ...Right? Or not? It's definitely not up to you to determine what are circumstances in which it should be allowed to one group of people and not to another one.

by vbo on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 12:45:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "Serbs" attacked Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo in a plan to implement a Great Serbia, when Tito's Yugoslavia collapsed. It has to be blamed on some elements in Serbia and not on the Serbian people in itself. All countries have bad leaders sometimes, Milosevic was the Serbian Hitler.


Yugoslavia's collapse became inevitable by the start of 1991, with the federal institutions completely deadlocked between pro- and anti-Milošević forces. The indictment against Milošević alleges that in a televised address on 16 March 1991 Milošević declared that Yugoslavia was finished and that Serbia would no longer be bound by decisions of the Federal Presidency.[7] This allegation was shown to be false when a transcript of the speech was exhibited at the Milošević trial on 25 January 2006.[8]

In June 1991, Slovenia and Croatia seceded from the federation, followed by the republics of Macedonia (September 1991) and Bosnia and Herzegovina (March 1992). The Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) sought unsuccessfully to prevent Slovenia's secession by the use of force; however, Slovenia's Ten-Day War ended in a disastrous defeat for the federal forces.

Demands for a greater autonomy for nations had been proposed since 1989, and Milošević had been an early opponent of such moves. Part of the reason why demands for Slovene independence were growing was the continuing authoritarian rule in Serbia. Milošević tried to organise a "Meeting of Truth" in the Slovene capital, Ljubljana, to discuss the Kosovo situation, but this proposal was rejected by Kučan. Milošević later moved towards a more pragmatic policy. He had little opposition to Slovenia leaving the country. Kučan recalled, "Milošević had said to me that we should reach some agreement on Slovenia's desire to leave Yugoslavia. He said that he would not stop us, and that the others didn't understand what the whole thing was about anyway. But he said that he cannot let Croatia go, because Croatia was bound to Serbia by blood."[9]

At this point, Milošević supported the claims of Serb populations in other states to stay in Yugoslavia, based on the ostensible premise that the large Serbian populations in Croatia (580,000) and Bosnia (1.36 million) should have the right to stay in Yugoslavia as they desired, arguing that the Yugoslav Constitution gave the right of self-determination to nations (Serbs, Croats, etc as a whole), not republics (Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, etc). His agreement with Slovenia was based on the self-determination of peoples; as Slovenia was ethnically homogeneous, he had little opposition to the country leaving.

Croatia's Serbs began campaigning for greater autonomy within Croatia from as early as 1990 after the election of the Croatian nationalist Franjo Tudjman, with Milošević's full support. From the day of Croatia's independence on June 25, 1991 until early 1992 when Croatian independence was recognised by the high profile world states, Croatia was facing resistance from the Yugoslav National Army (JNA). Following their withdrawal from Croatia in 1992 came the emergence of Serb dissidents from within Croatia's borders who engaged in a war against the Croatian government with support from Milošević. The first leader of Serbs in Croatia, Milan Babić, has stated that Milošević was responsible for this and his successor Goran Hadžić publicly bragged about how he was "the extended hand of Slobodan Milošević".

War crimes prosecutors subsequently characterised the creation of the separatist Republic of Serbian Krajina as a "joint criminal enterprise" whose goal was "the forcible removal of the majority of the Croat and other non-Serb population from the approximately one-third of the territory of the Republic of Croatia that he planned to become part of a new Serb-dominated state."[7] At the trial of Milan Babić, the ICTY found that the Serbian government was directly involved in the Croatian Serb rebellion, providing supplies, weapons, money and leadership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87

for you not adopting the Serbian nationalist standpoint is to be uninformed and malicious.

It is true that war crimes have been committed by all parts. But it is also true that the biggest ones in THIS war have been committed by the Serbs and that the Serbs, because in control of the Army and for pure ideological reasons started the war.

They are paying for that today. Exactly as the Germans did after WWII. At least they accepted their defeat.

by oldfrog on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 01:29:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said before your sources are biased and I do not take it seriously. Your posts are screaming " All Serbs are "chetniks" (and I am not going to even start to explain what this means in post WWII communist YU) - hang them all". By that parity all Croats and Muslims are Ustashe and Nazis so they actually should be all executed straight after WWII.
I do not think I have anything more to say to you.

Results of this "madness of independence" on Balkan that USA and EU created will show up in the future. I may not be alive but those of you who will I hope will remember my words

by vbo on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 02:59:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oldfrog, you need to do a lot more reading on this one. The first thing that the Croats did when they declared independence is pass a law that declared non-Croats as a secondary citizens, effectively stripping them of their citizenship within the newly consituted Croatia, as well as tossing them out of their jobs. This was before the violence started. As well, there were violent forays of Croat militia into the Krajina before the Serb military moved in and did the dirty deeds you cite in your post.

It's ironic that you would cite Kosovo Albanians as being in the right for taking up arms because of Serb discrimination, but that same right isn't given to Krajina Serbs. For me, both the Krajina Serbs and the Kosovars could have found better methods for securing their human rights, but at the very least you have to be consistent.

Especially when you consider that the leader of Croatia at the time, Tudjman, had a very questionable fascist background, and the history of the region less than 50 years earlier when the Croats tried to achieve independence was filled with the mass murder and genocide of hundreds of tholusands of Serbs and Jews. Against that backdrop, the institution of a discriminatory law against Krajina Serbs was plenty of ammunition to conjure up memories of the past.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 01:17:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That Tudjman was an a-hole is not question about. I am not defending him. The Croats are not without blame in that story, neither are the Bosnians ("muslims") either. The Kosovars KLA was a CIA creation (using some rogue local elements too). So be it.

But fact remain that it was Milosevic's nationalism that created most of the havoc in the region. After Tito's death the unsolved problems were not solved by negotiation, and the GREATEST responsability falls on the Serbian nationalists, based on nationalistic fantasies from the historian Karadic that everybody that spoke serbocroatisk was an ethnic Serb. Milosevic wanted even to include parts of Hungary and Bulgaria in the Greater Serbia and join it in a union with Greece...

Had someone else been in charge maybe the old Yugoslavia had split into independent nations without major conflicts. But history often doesn't work the easy way.

I think I am consistent. I see a big difference between a geographical unit with a vast majority (88%) of one very different ethnical group with a completely different language (Kosovo) - and enclaves (12% of the population) of people within another community speaking the same language but using a different alphabet. I never said that the Kosovars had "the right to take to arms", I said that their historical situation was different from the Krajina Serbs.

In a way the Milosevic claims reminds of the Zionist claims on Palestine. But using some verses about a more or less unverified "treason" in a poem written 100 years after a major defeat (as only source) to define the craddle of a nation, is even more preposterous than the Zionist claim.  

by oldfrog on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 03:00:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That Tudjman was an a-hole is not question about. I am not defending him.

You are defending him when you defend the way the RSK was ended.

Milosevic's nationalism that created most of the havoc in the region

What does that have to do with the dispute at hand? (BTW, some might say that by mismanaging the diplomacy vs. both Milo and Tudjman and the war against the latter, the great powers trump even Milo in damage caused.)

I see a big difference between a geographical unit with a vast majority (88%) of one very different ethnical group with a completely different language (Kosovo) - and enclaves (12% of the population) of people within another community speaking the same language but using a different alphabet.

No, you are not consistent. You could call ethnic-Albanian areas within Serbia (in and outside Kosovo) 12% ethnic enclaves, too. Ditto the Croatian enclaves that existed in Western Krajina before the war. And Serb vs. Croatian went further than alphabet, for example it also included religion. (BTW, nationalists on both sides today prefer to treat "Serbo-Croatian" as a Yugoslav fiction and define the two dominant dialects as separate languages.)

In a way the Milosevic claims reminds of the Zionist claims on Palestine

You are reducing the Kosovo conudrum to Milo and his speech at Kosovo Polje. But the wrangle for Kosovo goes on at least since 1876, when Serbian majority ended, with changing luck.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 07:02:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. I am not defending the way Krajina was ended, I just said the entity as a "nation" was pure nationalistic land conquest. The Serbs seized the old "military border" and while they were at it, big parts of Dalmatia. Reminds of the zionist annexation of the Golan heights. Today "Krajina's right to exist" is ONLY defended by Zihrinovsky and the Serb nationalists. Not even the current Serbian government support it.

  2. of course Milosevic had nothing to do with the whole story. All this is a pure invention of the evil West. By the way the Serbs have never been understood either... where did I heard that one before... The fact that the West war against Kosovo caused unnecessary suffering on the Serbian population, cannot be compared with pure conscious war crimes, like Srebenica and alike.

  3. There is a big difference in a demand of sovereignty from 12% of the population of a country and 88% in the long term. Besides Serbo-Croatian is a recognized and taught language. The fact that one part prefer to use cyrillic to latin spelling, doesn't change the meaning of the words, no more than in regional differences that can be found in any language.

  4. I am not reducing anything. Milo's speech was only the expression of a nationalistic myth that existed long before him. All this fall into the category "Macedonia is Greek before Alexander once lived there" or "Palestine is Jewish because once there was a temple in Jerusalem".  

  5. the pattern of the Jugoslavian wars is very clear. The Serb nationalism considered the country as its property with the exception of Slovenia (which they even tried to annex in the beginning, just in case). If Milo had succeeded in Kosovo by lack of reply from the West, Macedonia was on the list, as a compensation for lost Bosnia etc... The fact that the "others" weren't models of virtue in their replies doesn't change that. Russia tried the same war of conquest at the split of the old USSR. They didn't succeed because they were too weak and their army dysfunctional to the difference from the JNA. Same old story.
by oldfrog on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 09:26:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're losing me, man. What in the world does Jerusalem and Alexander have to do with anything? I don't get you. Are you saying there were no Jews in Jerusalem during the Ottoman period? I don't even understand the Alexander Greek part, so I can't speak to that.
by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 11:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only that tripped you up? What about that geographic nonsense right at the beginning, about "seizing" the "old military border" and "big parts of Dalmatia"? I mean, Marek posted the ethnic distribution map, you find the map of the military border on the web, it's half of Croatia minus Dalmatia, and almost cutting Croatia in three at the Novi Grad inland sea and South of Karlovac...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I try to enter into interlocution and try to be generous, ignore the stuff I don't understand in order to at least establish some rapport with fellow posters, but then at times I hear a fuse short-circuit and my brain just frazzles. It's hard to pinpoint why and how it happens.
by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I make historical comparisons because I find those stories of "historical right" to land often preposterous.

The Palestinian question is complicated but historians are quite agreeing that the Jewish civilisation (which was only a part of today's Palestine, including Lebanon and parts of Jordan) collapsed with the destruction of the temple. There were some pockets left but the local population turned in its majority to a Greco-Roman lifestyle with later on a Christian (Byzantine) religion and were later converted to Islam. The fact that some hundred families stayed there and kept practicing Judaism is a poor justification for coming back 1900 years after and tell the locals : this is ours, move.

For Macedonia see :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute


Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate [ethnic] Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publicly endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD. Proponents of both the extreme and the moderate Macedonian positions stress that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct non-Greek people.[36]
by oldfrog on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From all my reading, it's quite clear that there were significant numbers of Jews in and around Jerusalem in the 18th and 19th century. Much more than the number of families you talk about, not to mention the fact that the Jews who "left" the Levant 1900 years ago were the victims of constant pogroms and expulsions in Europe, often dispossessed, so a return to Jerusalem can just as easily be described as a place to call home for once.

I'd say both Greeks and Macedonians are pretty silly in looking back into that history beyond, say, 1940. That's where the problem begins. Any argument as to racial purity descending from the ancients is patently absurd, as though the ancients were pure themselves. I don't side with Macedonians who argue that the ancients were not Greek (especially since I seem to remember willing Greeks joining Alexander and perpetuating Greek language and culture [and mayhem] in Asia), and I don't side with Greeks who see direct descent from the ancients along bloodlines. The language seems more or less direct, but really little else.

The answers to the Greek-Macedonian problem all lie in the Greek Civil War, the construction of Yugoslavia's southernmost province, and the historical reaction of the peoples living there to these two events.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If Milo had aucceeded at what in Kosovo? What was his aim? I don't get it. Kosovo was already Serbian. What do you think he was trying to do there?

Not to mention the fact that the Macedonian gov't at the time was not entirely in opposition with the Serbs. the stories of the Macedonian border guards and their relations with Serb military as they were looking over the humanitarian camps speak volumes as to the mutually shared anxiety over Albanian self-determination both in Kosovo and Macedonia.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 11:32:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If Milo had succeeded expelling the "Kosovar Albanians" to Albania. The goals of the Serbs nationalists were to only tolerate ethnic minorities in the territories they considered as theirs.

You can bet that he would have done the same in Macedonia. The Macedonians are the dominating slavic ethnic group so it wouldn't have been a problem. This explains why Macedonia stayed out of the war.

by oldfrog on Tue Feb 6th, 2007 at 05:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You seem to be under the misconception that Operation Horseshoe was a real Serbian plot. It wasn't. It was made up by German intelligence. If Milosevic had a plan to ethnically cleanse Kosovo, you might want to explain to me why he agreed to remove all Serbian military and police out of kosovo. I believe Milosevic rather liked the idea of NATO and UNMIK coming in the tramp down violence against the Serb minority, because it meant he wouldn't have to do it.

Macedonia, at this time, was quite friendly to the Serbs. Like the Serbs, they were very worried about Albanian irredentism.

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