Happy Birthday EU

by rdf
Sun Mar 25th, 2007 at 11:33:23 AM EST

I don't know what the celebrations over the 50th anniversary of the EU are, but the pundits seem to be out in force.

Yesterday I heard a discussion between three pundits on the BBC. As an American I understood very little of their points.

The moderator tried to get the discussion away from recriminations about the past and focused on what happens next. I didn't understand this part either...

So my question to those in Europe: What's next?


The main points of discontent seemed to be that there are those who feel that the growth rate is too low, that individual countries are losing their autonomy (to "Brussels") and that the EU isn't adding new countries fast enough.

These are all procedural concerns. No one discussed what "there" looks like when you reach your destination.

I can understand that there are persistent issues of unemployment, immigration and integration, but what else?

From here it looks like most people are getting pretty good social services, that the (local) environment is getting cleaner and "greener" and that the poorer areas are getting richer. So what next? Once one has gotten to a certain point in material wealth and social stability isn't that enough?

Your thoughts, both on what you would like to see as improvements and as to why some in government and business are unhappy would be appreciated.

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The Anglo-Saxon pundit class is always hitting the same points:
  • More competitiveness (mention 'labour market flexibility'; 'bloated welfare state', call some large continental country 'the sick man of Europe', say that 'reform' is slowing down/must be reinforced, that high taxes discourage 'investment')
  • More enlargement (say it's the most succesful European policy, hint that the Eastern Europeans somehow like the UK/US and have bright ideas like flat taxes)
  • More de-integration (call subsidiarity a dead letter, say that '80% of legislation comes from Brussels', the Commission is an 'unaccountable/unelected bureaucracy')
It's hard work being a pundit, repeating the neoliberal conventional wisdom every day!

I'd say that the actual policy challenges in Europe are completely different. The biggest challenges, aside of the three you mention, are the demographic development, the environmental challenge, the low level of people with secondary education and the low level of spending on research.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 05:37:51 AM EST
I'd say that the actual policy challenges in Europe are completely different. The biggest challenges, aside of the three you mention, are the demographic development, the environmental challenge, the low level of people with secondary education and the low level of spending on research.
Explain? Low level of people with secondary education?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 05:41:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mistake! I wanted to say tertiary.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 05:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That makes more sense! I'd still be interested in your reasoning on the list.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 05:48:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Translating problems into solutions is the hard part, of course. On education, the solution is relatively simple: more funding. The question is where you get the money from. I think that universities need to become better at getting money from the private sector and from alumni, but especially the issue of private sector funding is very sensitive. More money from the state is also necessary, but there you'd have to increase taxation or decrease other spending, which is a big issue.

Another issue is how you fund universities. I would be a fan of a voucher scheme to pay for the education part because I think that it will give universities more independence and students more power. The problem there is that it could be used as a step towards privatising universities, and that the level of funding will still be subject to political bargaining. The devil is in the details. I don't think the issue of funding creationist/antiscientific institutions is as big a threat in Europe, though in some parts it might be.

On the research gap: the problem in Europe is mainly that the private sector does not spend enough on research, and the problem is especially pronounced amongst small and medium-sized enterprises, IIRC. Sometimes people will compare the number of patents registed in Europe and the USA/Japan, but that is not a good measure as the US allows the patenting of business methods and software patents. A lot of the research done in the US can be because of the incentives offered by greater protection of IP, which don't have a beneficial effect for the overall economy. This needs to be kept in mind. More IP is the wrong solution. However, I don't really know what the right one would be.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 06:50:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am very suspicious of the whole "research gap" because I don't understand the statistics underlying it ... what is the "research gap" and what is the evidence for it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 06:54:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I know a large number of science graduates (and graduates, and post-graduates) working in service jobs. I call that an absolute research gap, never mind the relative one.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 06:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or an over supply of graduates in certain areas.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:05:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So we don't need to educate more, do we, which would only lower the price of their labour even further.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. It's all just a result of inefficiency due to government intervention in the market anyway.

Now, I'm off to call for more government subsidies for research and development of the type the market would like. I have a lobby group that knows precisely what the economy needs.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The labour market for R&D is not static. Or at least it is not supposed to be. It is very bad if it is static.

To put it another way, graduates should be starting up their own businesses.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but there is no capital for that.

I was going to suggest that microcredit or venture capital would be the solution, but the private sector seems to have little appetite for it. And, of course, there's the issue of the entrepreneurial/risk-taking culture (or lack thereof) among the graduates.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:28:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. It may be, as someone says, that this is not everyone's cup of tea. I certainly don't mean to suggest that every graduate should found a company (just a lot more than are doing it now). But at least you could encourage it, for instance by offering students a course or other assistance on starting up a company. If the private sector is unwilling to lend money, the government should consider giving funding (could give them a nice return on investment if they do it right).
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not everyone should fund a company, but I think that an effort should be made to help people over the hurdles of access to capital and lack of entrepreneurial attitude or skills.

And, of course, the suggestion is not that everyone starts a company by themselves, but as a partnership with others they know so that the group has the necessary mix of skills and attitudes.

But access to capital is the essential ingredient, and it is jealously guarded.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:01:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ack, fund <- found

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:58:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A theoretical physicist, an astronomer, a mathematician?

But even beyond fundamental research, I'm not too friendly to the idea of exposing university research to even the possibility of dependence on private companies.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:29:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, can we please separate research and education? The research university is not the best way to deliver a good higher education for the masses, but just an elite structure.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:03:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, but if you try to create an elite research/university stream and a separate more vocational stream then your middle classes don't want to go to the vocational stream at all. Education as conspicious consumption.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:06:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who said vocational?

In the US you can get a better basic science education at a 4-year college than at a research university. Not only are the resources more focused on teaching, but at a 4-year college, as there are no graduate students, professors use undergraduates to run research projects. There is hardly any undergraduate research at research universities.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:09:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean vocational in a very, very wide sense.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whether a dependence develops depends upon how private companies are drawn in. The largest problem I see is that they may be used by the government to cut the level of funding either for research or for education. If the government funding is kept up (and increased a bit, as it should be), I really don't see the issue.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What about private involvement with a special education tax?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 11:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not a big fan of policy-based taxation (I expect that it tends to make policies unpopular, aside of the overall loss of oversight). Aside of that, it's not really private involvement, is it? Something that could be thought of is a corporatist structure where business voluntarily pays into a central fund and collectively negotiates the areas on which it is to be spent with government and the universities.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 12:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you really expect business to pay more voluntarily?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 05:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps you were just snarking, but that was only part of the problem at where I was - there was a general tendency to consider third stream (industry funded) money to be dirty and morally objectionable. Research should come from the state, period. End of story.

Except of course, if the money came from Shell. Then it'd be alright. (!!)

So I would not be surprised if some of that particular culture is more pervasive within Europe - but this is a question I have which I've not researched and is extremely hard to research sitting behind a computer in South Africa.

by Nomad on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 02:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with accepting non-charity money from a for-profit organisation is that it generally comes with intellectual strings attached.

So, yes, maybe private businesses will find it in their hearts to put money into an independent research trust, but I don't think it's likely.

If a researcher wants to consult or be employed with a private business, fine, but university funding shouldn't depend on that.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 02:50:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the TU Eindhoven and the TU Twente? That to me are two good examples of what can happen when industry and university research start co-operating successfully. They do some really neat stuff there - and are big in the patents. It looks definitely win-win - but they are not "classic" Dutch universities.

I agree that a university funding for research should not depend solely on private business funding. Which is why it should remain third stream money.

Migeru:

The problem with accepting non-charity money from a for-profit organisation is that it generally comes with intellectual strings attached.

Let me answer that one over three years...

by Nomad on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 04:01:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I didn't know about those, but I did know about RIM's Mike Lazaridis funding the Perimeter Institute by endowing a $100M fund. But this is a "charitable" contribution into a trust, and neither RIM nor Lazaridis have any levers to affect the research that is carried out.

But it doesn't happen often.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 04:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure. Just call it part of corporate social responsibility.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 02:58:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not everyone is business oriented enough to want their own. I could never work for myself. I wouldn't get anything done, and would probably starve to death. Many other engineers I know would likely be similarly poor business owners.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:34:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The research gap is the difference in R&D spending between Europe and Japan and the USA. The gap is in percentage points of GDP (We do 1.9, the US does 2.5, Japan does 3.1). The difference is accounted for mainly by differences in the private sector.

I think that spending in Europe also tends to be skewed towards large undertakings (at least this is the case in Germany where the automobile sector accounts for over half of all private sector R&D), whereas the largest potential for wealth creation lies in R&D by SMEs.

Maybe it's silly to speak of a 'gap'. In terms the economy at large, it is probably better to spend quite a lot on fundamental research, applied research and the development of technology as it is one of the most potent sources for the creation of wealth.

Caveats with regard to creating wealth apply, though I think that changes in technology is a potent force for the betterment of just about anything. If used wisely...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:44:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How would we know the gap has closed? Is just spending more money enough?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:46:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU's own goal of reaching 3% in 2010 is probably good. If it can be reached without increasing IP protection or, say, massive increases in military spending, the result of more spending is going to be beneficial.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:32:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How does the US number account for research indirectly funded by the government? Weapons projects and so on?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:07:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would think that weapons projects tend to be funded by the government? Or at least as well. Whether or not military spending on research & development is included I don't know. Quite possible that it is. This can't account for the difference with Japan, though.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:27:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd imagine - without evidence - that R&D directly funded as such is counted. If Boeing carry out R&D for a new fighter plane project would it be counted as governement or private spending?

I have no idea what would be behind the Japanese figure, but I'd be interested in the structure of it.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:30:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And are there differences in accounting rules or whatnot that encourage companies to report things differently?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:08:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is probably a good time to point out that I think that there are problems with research and product development - why are these two even in the same box? - in the EU. I'm just not convinced that a comparions with other economies on GDP grounds tells us anything useful at all. We can close that gap simply by allocating more funds to university research projects from the university budget and then having the university charge the projects higher admin fees.

Problem solved.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:32:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU's own analysis of the matter is that the difference is due to a difference in private sector spending and that it should be made up through increased private sector spending on research and the development of new products (rather than shifting more public sector spending from education to research, which may solve one statistical/accounting problem but creates 10 other very real problems).

The difference in private sector spending points at something real. Of course, the figures need to be broken down, as you indicate. It may be that in the case of the US it is merely spending on military development and patent trolling. That's an interesting topic for further research.

I think that there is a fairly continuous line from fundamental research to applied research to new product development, and therefore it makes sense to group them together when doing an analysis in an economic context.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:49:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't make that much sense, because you end up with different people talking about different things. When I hear the right-wing party here talking about funding research at the same time that they're talking about "partnership with business" it is pretty clear to me that they're talking about subsiding product development, not more money for fundamental research.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:52:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Business is not going to engage in fundamental research. The problem I see is that the EU's own research framework programmes are oriented towards applications to the detriment of fundamental research. So the EU is picking up the slack of business, and encouraging researchers to do less fundamental research.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 10:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
fully endorse your comment? Although I would be interested in your thoughts as well how you'd think the universities should be funded for research - which should be a separate money stream compared to education.

Because this:

nanne:

but especially the issue of private sector funding is very sensitive

is certainly debilitating capacities of the EU universities.

Can I also cajole you to this recent comment of mine regarding the same subject(s)?

Even while there is a lot to be done in education, the EU is getting there - and is in absolute numbers still ahead of Japan and the USA.

Research is the different beast - and for Europe I think currently the most urgent one.

by Nomad on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:13:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting comment, especially re- research development.

I agree with you that research funding should be a separate stream. I think this should be done through direct transfers from the central government/EU. Private sector participation should be encouraged, possibly through a central fund, possibly through agreements between individual companies and universities and possibly through hybrids. Depending upon sensitivities...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 09:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm... I agree about the environmental challenge, but see the problem not in the demographic but the job market development, and would prefer quality over quantity in education. Further challenges I'd see would be further EU democratisation, a US-independent and coherent (and non-imperial) joint foreign policy, reducing greatly the ethnic hatreds (especially that of Romas), and to permanently separate the EU project from neoliberalism.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:22:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what dodo said...

addendum: chemical farming need to end YESTERDAY.

grid decentralisation is a huge issue too.

oh, and can the eurovision song contest, pronto, and san remo while you're at it.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 04:08:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently, if you read European media, the aniversary must be of something pretty depressing. Why is this specter of pesimism or cynism? How did "we" got talked into a submissive self-image? What do "we" want more?

SHOW THE EU SOME LOVE

The Frankfurt airport is a dreary place, so I decided to spend my layover here by taking the train into the center of the city. Reading through a stack of European papers I was surprised at the column space given to the 50th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome, the EU's founding document.

With the exception of a smart Geoffrey Wheatcroft op-ed in the International Herald Tribune, almost all the coverage was extremely cynical and dispiriting. Feeling duly dispirited, then, I cursorily checked with the Bavarian man sitting next to me to see if the German papers were equally negative. Indeed they were! (This nice fellow was not a taxi-cab driver, and thus my interaction with him was only 90% as cliched as I had hoped it would be.)

Yes, the EU has run into some problems lately in regards to new member states, their constitution, and disagreements over the role of religion. But to look at the last fifty (or even 62) years of European history is to witness a remarkable success story (in more ways than one). I'd say a little celebration, not to mention pride, is in order.

by das monde on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:12:02 AM EST
The main points of discontent seemed to be that there are those who feel that the growth rate is too low, that individual countries are losing their autonomy (to "Brussels") and that the EU isn't adding new countries fast enough.

All three points are false. The first one is about a pissing contest, when raising inequality and the debasing of public infrastructure and the social safety net is a much more pressing concern.

The second point is bullshit: individual countries pressy much have veto power or can easily put together blocking minorities. The member states have too much power and the European Parliament too little.

The EU just doubled in size in 3 years and is not only in political gridlock but in the middle of an internal economic rearrangement only comparable with the German reunification. It will take 5 to 7 years for all the special rules applying to the nex member states to lapse. Don't expect any new members before 2019.

Your mistake was to listen to a BBC debate, British pundits just don't 'get it'.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:21:12 AM EST
pressy -> pretty
nex -> new

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just for the record, of the three "pundits" one was British (and sounded like he wanted the UK to withdraw), one was Irish (and sounded like he wanted to punch the British fellow in the nose) and one was, I believe, Spanish.

The Irishman talked about growth and the Spaniard about strengthening the power of the central government as a  way to sidestep the negative vote on the constitution.

No one seemed to want to talk about the positive results of the EU.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 08:50:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, sorry.

Regarding what the Spaniard said, the EU is already too democratic for the politicians. You may have noticed that the best way they can imagine out of the constitution fiasco is to have the next treaty ratified by the national parliaments. Referencums are too unpredictable.

So, the democratic deficit is a real problem.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 08:53:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I would like to see is
  1. A directly elected President of the Commission - by instant runoff voting in an EU-wide popular vote
  2. A Common Foreign and Security Policy, and the European Defence Agency taking over from NATO - also, "force projection" is not "defence"
  3. Enhanced cooperation - i.e., a qualified majorities of states doing more things like the Euro or Schengen. As this is already in the treaties, countries should lose their qualms about it.


"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:26:02 AM EST
Why the President?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because currently they're chosen by the States, which just put one of them in charge. Because I am beginning to think that the European Parliamentary systems lack separation of powers between legislative and executive, and I wouldn't want the EP to be too closely tied to the Commission, politically. Also symbolically, it would allow people to identify more with "Brussels".

In other words, I think the Codecision procedure is great in the way it balances the three institutions (Commission, Council and Parliament). The Commission needs to be separated from the Council more than it is, and it would be a step in teh wrong direction to link it too closely with the Parliament.

I just remembered that currently Solana is both the Council Secretary General and the High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy. It's possible that that's a good thing: for the foreseeable future the Member States won't want to give up their foreign policy to the Commission, the most one can hope for is a true commitment to a collegiate foreign policy.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:33:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because I am beginning to think that the European Parliamentary systems lack separation of powers between legislative and executive,

Why do you think that's bad? It at least makes it relatively easy to unseat an executive that gets out of control. I'm not convinced the US model of limited temporary kingship is a great one.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The European Commission is not a Kingship, no matter what the eurosceptics say. The Codecision procedure is a better system of checks and balances. Also, I'm not bothered by the fact that Directives take 2 years or more to go through it. The quality of a legislative machine is not measured by the speed with which it can churn new laws.

I would also give the Council and the Parliament, not just the Commission, legislative initiative. But I wouldn't take it away from the Commission.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was referring to the separation of powers thingy.

The parliament definitely needs legislative initiative. It's the main deficiency with EU democracy that I can see.

The EU's core problem is that it doesn't really deal with people's day-to-day concerns in a way they can understand. It deals with them at at least one remove most of the time.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:43:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think having the executive come out of the largest parliamentary faction is good for separation of powers. The failure of the national parliaments to investigate the CIA prison/flight scandal is just the best and most recent example of this.

So, codecision and making the Commission President not owe their place to either Parliament or Council sould be a good thing.

Also, how the President is selected has nothing to do with how they are removed. One could still allow the EP to impeach them, to confirm the appointments of the commissioners, etc.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:46:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You sound a bit like a thirties US neoliberal :-)

What makes you think that a directly elected President would be more likely to act on an issue like the CIA prison/flight scandal than a directly elected Parliament?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 08:44:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I'm saying that a parliament tied to the executive is even less likely to act.

The less the people in the various institutions owe their seats to each other (or to the same outside agent) the better.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 08:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU's core problem is that it doesn't really deal with people's day-to-day concerns in a way they can understand.

You want the EU to take on the job of strengthening local government?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's pretty much an intrinsic problem of a supra-national organisation.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:52:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So let's stop worrying about it.

Subsidiarity is a great thing. Higher instances of government should concentrate on setting minimum standards and facilitating coordination. Day-to-day concerns should not be the province of the national governments either. I'd strengthen both the EU and the local governments.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that it's not just a practical issue. It's also a PR issue. If local-level support happens - and of course it does - but it remains invisble, it's far too easy for old fashioned nationalisms to pretend that the EU isn't doing much anything except spending money on parliaments, doughnuts and bratwurst.

The EU is wretchedly bad at is promoting itself. This is partly because it's not unified ideologically, but also because there's no mechanism which links people's experience of the benefits to their source.

In my (UK based) experience, when money becomes available, it's discussed in very remote terms. Someone in a country far away decides to offer money... and local people are happy to take it. But there doesn't seem to be any feeling of relationship with the source of the money. It might as well be the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.

This is very, very bad, because it enforces an assumption of non-participation. Us vs them is much less coherent than us here vs us there.

So the feeling of local intervention and interest matters a lot. If handled properly, it could do a lot to create political and social coherence.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 08:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sounds like you're saying we should phase out the middlemen of state government.

since that's where the majority of the corruption is, i agree.

local government is also often corrupt and inefficient, but the damage is less catastrophic.

hopefully accountability will improve with growing awareness, stimulated by blogs like this.


"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 04:12:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, local government is pretty corrupt too. The media spotlight shines more often on the national government. After all, it's smaller.

In Spain the biggest source of corruption are land reclassifications and infrastructure building contracts. Most of this is politically under local government, except for the big national infrastructure like high-speed rail.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 04:39:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
interesting your comment started with a 'no', then repeated something i said!

idem with italy and the land reclassifications and infrastructure building contracts, not receiving media attention.

the corruption i was referring to is around military-industrial spending and secret service shenanigans, rendition policies etc.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Mar 27th, 2007 at 08:04:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I lik e it for the symbolic stuff.

there was a great article in the Guardian by T Ash about this lack of common politics arena...

A king without a lot of power (less than the parliament) will joing the european pshcyhe at the level of the Eurocup.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 02:08:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why are number 1 and number 3 good ideas?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:32:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. see my reply to DoDo.
  2. after 15 years of wringing our hands over how a "variable-geometry", "two-speed" or "a la carte" Europe would weaken the union, I see that what weakens the union politically is the small number of Eurosceptic countries who have not become any more cooperative after these 15 years. I see no reason to expect the UK, Denmark, Poland, Sweden, Austria to be very cooperative in setting up bold new initiatives at the EU level.


"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:36:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see that what weakens the union politically is the small number of Eurosceptic countries who have not become any more cooperative after these 15 years.

That doesn't mean that a two-speed Europe won't also weaken it politically.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:37:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My concern is that many of the initiatives you might want to put in place incur a cost that wouldn't be borne by opting out countries who could then compete unfairly against other members of the Union, exploiting the free-trade aspect of it. I believe that the UK is already doing this by opting out of the Social Charter. This is only going to get worse.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:41:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is better? To accept the uK as free rider, or to do nothing?

The cost of some countries opting out would need to be factored into the decision to go ahead, but since the EU already doesn't prevent member states from entering bilateral or multilateral arrangements, all I'm saying is that those should be made part of the EU structure.

Also, new applicants for membership don't get to opt out of anything.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:43:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The UK stopped opting out of the social charter in 1997 (effective in 1999).
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 12:38:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see it as any worse than the current gridlock.

Your problem is that Ireland is prevented by the UK from taking advantage of a certain enhanced cooperation (though you are in the Euro)

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:41:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, let the EU raise its own taxes.

The EU budget is just 1% of GDP, right? If people saw they pay a few hundred € in taxes to the EU, and several thousand to their national government, they would stop complaining that the EU is too expensive.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 07:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you misunderestimate the Anglo-Saxon horror of both the EU and of taxes. What both have in common is the pernicious and dangerous idea of sharing - which is something the Anglo-Saxon mindset is against on principle.

So your suggestion would be met by slobbering cries of 'Taxes bad! Bad! Bad!' from people whose idea of being balanced is an ability to drool on an even keel. (And I don't just meant the ones who write for the FT and the Economist.)

In fact I'd add the influence of Anglo-Saxon-ism to Nanne's list, because ideologically it's the only thing that has the potential to tear apart the EU.

The infection is already running deep. Wwhile I'm sure there's an immune system of sorts in place, I'm not so sure it's strong enough to nurse the patient back to rude health without the need for a more serious intervention.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 08:33:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You will find in this comment links to a comparative report on innovation between EU, the US an Japan...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Mon Mar 26th, 2007 at 06:28:00 PM EST


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