European Tribune

Ask ET: Protectionism and Fledgling Economies

by Metatone
Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 04:33:34 AM EST

So the other day, I nearly started a flamewar on another website about protectionism, but I realised whilst I have a feeling about the evidence, I might be wrong. So what better to do than pick the brains of the community here about the evidence?

The question is:

Name a large economy that made a transition from poor/agricultural to prosperous/industrial without the use of protectionism to first build an industrial base.

From the diaries ~ whataboutbob


When I say large, that is because Hong Kong and Singapore are favourie neo-liberal examples, but I already know how inapplicable they are to the transition of larger economies.

If you can name one I'd be very interested to hear about, because I tried and could not. If no-one can think of one it rather suggests that there is no empirical evidence for the blanket application of free trade as a strategy for 3rd World countries.

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How large? I don't think protectionism is a requirement: large transfers from the richer partners will do the job fine, which is how the EU model works: cf Ireland, Spain etc.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 at 09:45:23 AM EST
Well, the discussion was mostly about Africa, so "large" mainly about excluding city states with low infrastructure needs.

Arguably in terms of Africa, Spain and Ireland were way ahead of the level I was thinking about, but it's a good point, you don't need market-distoring tariff barriers, market-distorting subsidies will do just as well! ;-)

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 at 09:48:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on definition of "protectionism". (I prefer the term "import-substitution.")

The EU member states, back in the day, still did industrial policy, in particular France, until the neo-libs increasingly took over such places as the competition commission and, importantly, the ECJ.

The CAP is a textbook example of an "import-subsitution" regime which benefited, one way or another, Ireland, Spain and France, which between them have over a third of all EU-25 arable land, for quite some time.


"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 at 10:36:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ddin't germany do that under Bismarck at the end of the 19th century ?

It's a bit of a dead zone for Africa, has any african country made it to industrial ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 at 02:55:27 PM EST
Aside from South Africa, none come close to becoming an industrialized country. I consider that they have an auto industry as a basis of this.

I am thinking that the question:
Name a large economy that made a transition from poor/agricultural to prosperous/industrial without the use of protectionism to first build an industrial base.
Is too narrow to find many examples and lacks a clear cut demarcation of of these concepts.

I would frame it more like "Name a country that increased their Per Capita Income (PPP) to $13,000 without the use of protectionism"?

------------------------------ Rutherfordian RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1@msn.com) on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 at 05:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Protectionism is a form of niche formation. Protectionism might be declared "illegal" in its rude form, but plenty examples of niche formation and utilization ought to be around. Niche formation must be an important strategy, and many forms of it can be accepted widely.

Niche construction is important in the biological context as well. Depending on the way you look at it, you can see manipulative, altruistic, protective or Gaian aspects. This fits in this discussion.

by das monde on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 05:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Go on then, answer your own question. I don't mind. If it's useful then it will be useful, if not, I'm sure someone will point it out.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Apr 14th, 2007 at 06:31:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany had lots of protectionistic policies before the first world war. Among the most important ones were import taxes on food crops, to keep the large landholders in Prussia solvent.
by Trond Ove on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 07:16:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about naming all the large industrial economies, and then doing a checklist.

The UK. initial protectionist phase.
The US. initial protectionist phase.
Japan, initial protectionist phase.
Germany, initial protectionist phase.

Just keep that list going, and the first large industrial economy that developed in the history of development of large industrial economies without a protectionist phase, that is the answer.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 04:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... big developing economies, and add to the list:
  • China, initial protectionist phase
  • India, initial protectionist phase
  • Brazil, initial protectionist phase

There is a strong tendency to confuse the policy fight that occurs in a successfully industrialising country about the need to phase protectionist policies out, and the question over how essential the protectionist policies were in the first place ...

... especially when the phase out is won by a coalition of those who were always opposed to them and those who argue that their time has passed.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 05:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somewhat loaded as a question since protectionism was more prevalent in the past than now. Perhaps it should be 'more protectionist than typical for its era?'
by MarekNYC on Thu Apr 12th, 2007 at 06:26:57 PM EST
Right. Now you can shout "Estonia!" or something, if only Estonia's population were larger than Hong-Kong's. If you ask something bigger than Hong Kong and Singapoure, you exclude a lot.
by das monde on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 05:49:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If:
  1. everyone has a deliberately interventionist phase in one period, and so anyone who developed a large industrial economy from that period had a protectionist phase, and
  2. only some have a deliberately protectionist phase in another period, and it turns out that all nations that develop into large industrial economies in that period had a protectionist phase ...

... how does the greater prevalance of protectionism in the previous period undermine the argument?


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 04:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I recall the argument went something like this:

60's: State is good, import subsitution works very well.

80's: State is bad, import subsitution works very bad.

00's: Good state is good, bad state is bad. Insitutions are very important. Import substitution generally works bad, except initially in agriculture where 80+ % of the population work.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 05:32:51 AM EST
When the reality is more like:
  • effective import substitution policy is good
  • ineffective import substitution policy is bad
  • if an industry never grows up, that is either a failed infant industry policy or a successful income redistribution to the owners of those firms


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 04:33:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is what i think is a good article on that discussion:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/econ/2003/08freetradehistory.htm

by Torres on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 06:03:10 AM EST
I won't be splitting too much hairs on how the question should be reframed and all...

Although the Netherlands had a huge role as transit country (which it still has) before the discovery of the Slochteren gas field, without its discovery and the already present know-how to win it - wealth creation within the Netherlands would not have boosted as massively as it did. Or such is what I learned at school.

I'm surprised that Finland hasn't been mentioned so far. As far as I could determine, that was an internally driven change from mainly agriculture to high-tech knowledge industry. Don't know about levels of protectionism, though.

Still. To me it seems to boil down to two things: a country's capacity to make change happen - which is largely dependent on already present capital/wealth - or national resources without out-sourcing them completely to foreign corporations.

by Nomad on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 07:29:20 AM EST
Don't you know we're supposed to have gotten sick from that? :-)
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 08:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't know any. Related to the topic, I hit upon Dani Rodrik's site while doing investigation (for something completely different). He's a Harvard prof who has written a lot about development economics.

A piece by him and two other authors called 'What You Export Matters' is especially interesting, I think, as it has large implications for the developed world as well.

To give an extremely short summary: the paper focuses on the issue of 'cost discovery', the process by which an 'entrepeneur' by pioneering a specific technology, service or process in an economy discovers the underlying cost structure and thereby generates positive externalities for other entrepeneurs. This has the following implication:

Everything else being the same, an economy is better off producing goods that richer countries export. Standard models of comparative advantage indicate that pushing specialization up the product scale in this fashion would be bad for an economy’s health: it would simply distort production and create efficiency losses. The framework we developed in the paper, and the evidence that we offered, suggest an alternative interpretation. A country’s fundamentals generally allow it to produce more sophisticated goods than it currently produces. Countries can get stuck with lower-income goods because entrepreneurship in cost discovery entails important externalities. Countries that are able to overcome these externalities– through policies that entice entrepreneurs into new activities– can reap the bene…ts in terms of higher economic growth.

Or shorter: Industrial policy matters in developing countries (if it is done right).

Now I would be very interested in the reverse of this argument. Can there be unlearning of the cost structure, or can an economy's performance weaken when certain sectors are diminished? (Like, say, manufacturing in Anglo-Saxon countries). Does the picture change for countries that are already wealthy; should they seek to produce a specific type of product/service, or seek the greatest possible level of diversification?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 07:38:04 AM EST
Spain actually was poor and agricultural wth huge level of protectionism...actually opening up a bit was crutial on the 60's...

Later on it had to be supplemented with external money  both direct funds and emigration funds.

So, getting rid of some parts of protectionism was good for Spain.... but of course.. the level of protectionism still after the stabilization pact in the 60's was much more than anything that could be accepted now for any southern country.

So, protectionism elimination can be good... a large level of elimination out of the blue in a large country with no industrial base.. no I dunno any... it would be comitting economical suicide.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 07:44:37 AM EST
... policy like permanent protection is a contribution to a dynamic process like economic development.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 at 04:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely absolutely and completely .. right..w ell agree. Yeah exactly.

I take them as my words

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sat Apr 14th, 2007 at 06:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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