European Tribune

Three conversations

by FarEasterner
Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:21:55 AM EST

Finally I sat down before my laptop to write something about me and this strange wonderful world. I started to write several times but each time was not satisfied with the outcome giving up in hope for better mood and inspiration. Sometimes when I want to write electricity goes out, this happened again tonight. I hope I would be forgiven by those here (DoDo!) who waited for the diary so long but I'm putting my thoughts here not to arouse any interest towards me but probably to draw your attention to this magnificent land, India, and the way she transforms the minds of some travellers from the West.

Dhauladar range above Dharamsala, Humachal Pradesh

From the diaries - whataboutbob


Let me tell you first where I am and what I am doing. I am in Dharamsala, Himachal Pradesh. I came here to finish books that I hope will be published in Russia. Last two months I spent travelling in some parts of Northern India with few compatriots who came for His Holyness the Dalai Lama teaching.

Though I have been proponent of view that Easterners' minds work somewhat differently from Westerners' (including Muhamedans) due to different religious and cultural environment however lengthy discussions I held last week with three European ladies forced me to think that Asians have more in common with Europeans than they used to admit. I have to apologize to people whose private thoughts shared with me I write about here but I hope that the world is so big they would not visit this site and all of them knew I am writer (very dangerous specie which always analyzes and observes people, their thoughts, manners, style of life and so on).

The first was discussion with Israeli lady. She did not tell me what was her occupation, but I understood she was a teacher of Jewish language as she reminiscenced her army experience many years ago when she was employed as a teacher of Hebrew for almost illiterate refugees from the Maghrib. Her husband was diamond polisher and dealer before retiring, all children grown up, received good education, married, secured good jobs and moved out of home.

On many accounts interaction with this lady was difficult (or perceived by me as difficult) as I tried not to touch sensitive topics for Israelis like occupation of Palestinian lands or drug addiction of too many young Israelis after compulsory army service. I have an impression she like many Israelis is concerned with vulnerable position her country occupies in the modern world as she repeatedly talked about Israel as part of the West. (Fortunately she did not know what I said here about the West!). Of course all Israelis are politically advanced and she expressed her quite moderate views, but she respected A.Sharon and M.Begin for their personal modesty though she did not like their policies (I assumed she was Avoda supporter). As it's common for people of her age she became disillusioned with modern politics - she told me that the Israeli president is being tried for rape and molestation of women and the prime minister is accused in corruption. Whether her cynicism has something to do with real confidence crisis in Israeli politics or with scepticism developed by many senior people I could not understand. She spoke negatively about influence exercised by narrow minded religious parties in Knesset and about Russian politicians like Avigdor Lieberman (who, she claimed, only wants to exterminate all Arabs). She also spoke about character of newly arrived Russians in ambivalent way - she praised them for their upward mobility, tendency of quick integration in Israeli society but chided them for habits they brought from Russia like meat and sausage shops. Our talk was not one-sided - she asked me few things about Russia where we concentrated on rapacious capitalism. I said many Russians became very profit-oriented (they can sell anything to anybody who has money without moral obstacles) and they (for example businessmen) regard little with moral in their rat races (I meant some even resort to contract murders when settling business disputes). While praising Mr Putin's administration for sound fiscal policy I said it was not supported by eradication of corruption, punishment of thiefs, which are necessary for restoration of public morale, and welfare policy especially towards elderly people. She said after 70 years of horrible life under Communist regime people and state have to earn some money first and she believes that welfare state will come inevitably.

What pleased me most in our conversation was her progress on spiritual front. I stayed in the same hotel in March when she just arrived in India and I cannot say interaction with her was in any way interesting. When I returned to Dharamsala after my travels she was at first absent then one day appeared sweated and in dirty clothes but somewhat satisfied. Explanation was very simple - she had gone through 10 days meditation retreat in Vipassana centre uphill in Dharamkot. It was something new to her - very basic facilities, scanty but probably salubrious food and silent meditation 12 hours a day. I asked her what she brought out of this rigorous practice. She, secular, westernised person used to good level of personal comfort, marked how little is needed for man to survive. She was literally starving and longing for hot bath up there but finding in me patient listener she did not rush to her room to wash accumulated dirt away. Now she feels happy she did not listened to her sister and brother-in-law who told her she was mad going alone to India and not on package tour. I shared contempt for package tourism with her unfortunately liked by our relatives (my sister with daughter had visited Turkey and Greece on package deals and were ignorant of life of local people, they even hesitated with answer when I asked - did they see any Turkish people in Turkey).

Second lady is from Germany. She occupies much envied room in the corner on my floor which gets sufficient sunlight and as she often walks in near mountains all days long I (I must admit) inquired several times from stuff of hotel whether she left the room or not (I hope to move in). Once she borrowed a book from me, Collins Wildlife Guide to India, to know more about birds and animals she have seen during her expeditions. For her balcony is adjacent to mine we start talking. I understood she is (or was) medical worker in hospital (I don't know whether doctor or nurse). She is (or was) married, has 2 daughters aged 31 and 22, the elder is going to marry soon.

I interested what was the reason behind her long 6 months sojourn in India. Naturally we talked about loneliness. She said she was appalled in hospital how many people die alone not attended by greiving relations. Once she almost cried when she saw an old man waiting for inevitable end but was taken back by colleagues telling her that man used to surround himself with cushions and never allowed any visitors to sit before him. I said probably he deserved lonely death. I told her about such selfish people in my country who suffer indignity of their last years in various shelters where they were put in by indifferent descendents or worse in their own deserted homes. One man I knew about, the honourable veteran of WWII, father of 4 married sons who in turn have numerous children, was suffering his last years alone and when he fell in his flat he had to scream for help of neighbours. And such indignity he had to go through because of his own intemperance and greediness, nobody liked him, even neighbours used to help him for their own sake in order to relieve themselves of his screams.

What are the reasons behind such drought of human emotions in our societies? I recounted my experience with Indian families and how they educate their children. Indians treatment of their elders is exemplary (though some argue that's because of caste system, fear of excommunication and because of succession laws where everything one has in life may be only inherited). The topic apparently interested her very much. She came to India to know more about people living different lifestyle and their culture and used every opportunity to visit their homes. Poverty of some families like the one of Tibetan refugees here in Dharamsala terrified her. Some like Sikkimese were doing well, with several storeys residencies, equiped with reception rooms, rooms for guests, family shrines etc. However she suspected that people here express their emotions in straightforward way has much to do with their religions. Her first place in India was math of Mata Amritanandamayi in Kerala. Fortunately Amma, famous for her mammoth hug, usually accompanied with chocolate kiss or some other sweet as prasad, was there. Ammachi (darling Mother) is venerated by Indians as reincarnation of Devi, Divine Mother of the Universe. She receives each person coming to seek her blessing in different ways - scolding, laughing, consoling, etc. German lady told me she have known there what is it to surrender herself. (Curiously, as her English is not perfect she had difficulty pronouncing this word - surrender - only after few minutes I guessed it's meaning).

Somehow we turned to politics. It was rare in my interaction with Germans to find someone speaking freely about Hitler. She thought Hitler tricked Germans because he gave them jobs, money they needed and other means first. Replying to this I said about Mr Putin who is much criticized in the West. He also has authoritarian tendencies but we will judge him by his deeds - his or his successors' treatment of small neighbouring countries like Georgia will be the crucial test. (Personally I don't like irresponsible policy of Mr Saakashvili of Georgia but I believe any bitter disputes between states should be settled through diplomacy not wars). Unfortunately that's not the case for the time being in the West - Mr Bush and Mr Blair are waging disastrous wars in Middle East for money, oil and prestige. She said she felt so hopeless - what she and ordinary people could do to prevent these leaders from going to war. She dislikes Mr Bush intensely - she said he has such stupid face and when he speaks he seems someone's puppet. We demonstrated against the war but they are too powerful, they have press, money and army. I remarked Indians are not easy to be fooled by propaganda machine like people in the West whose minds are washed with worthless talk-shows, soap operas and biased news coverage. I told her about success of Mayavati, maverick Indian politician, leader of former Untouchables, who uniformly receives bad press here still enjoying confidence of her electorate.
In the end we agreed that more and more Western people should go abroad for travel to know more about different countries and their culture (whatever ecologists say about impact of air travel on greenhouse emission). This way they will not be easily misled about Middle Eastern or Asian countries and will not support launching preemptive wars by their rulers.

There is not much to recount here about my conversation with the third lady. We came together by luxury bus from Delhi. She spoke English well and it was surprise she was from St.Petersburg in Russia. After one week she invited me for dinner in McLeod Ganj restaurant. I was more surprised to know she is working in St Petersburg' institute of Oriental studies and almost my colleague - she is professional Tibetologist, she came here to translate another Tibetan treatise. Then our conversation revolved around professional matters.

The one thing which probably would be of interest to you - we discussed Rudyard Kipling's book "Kim". I was somewhat captivated by it notwithstanding old language and clumsy plot. One has to go through lots of `thee' and `thou art', `thou wilt', `thou didst' etc. Plot developed around obsession of one Tibetan lama Teshoo (very probably Tashi as Teshoo name is unheard among Tibetans) with the search of the River of Immortality. I remember recent Jeff Greenwald's book "Shopping for Buddhas" about his obsession with finding perfect statue of Buddha, or also self-explanatory Alexander Frater's "Chasing the Monsoon". Literators like to use this trick but the search for River of Immortality can be least suspected from Tibetan lama. Though in Kipling's time not many knew about it. Lama is followed on his quest by Kim, an Irish orphan grown up in fair city of Lahore. Else you probably know or you can read it. There are some powerful moments illuminated by Kipling's legendary observation of India and Indians. I especially noted humility of the lama sitting in the dust outside the gates of Kim' school in Lucknow and Kim's words when they climbed to remote Himalayan valley: "Surely the Gods live here. This is no place for men!". Though such words are rarely heard from young boys these days I hoped thus was said after Rohtang-la up from Manali where people meet proper Himalayan Ridge and start their journey into high altitude desert of Tibetan plato. However mistakes were made by Kipling my objections mostly directed against Introduction by Mark Kincead-Weeks (in Indian edition of Kim), who is probably professional literary critic. He speaks about Buddhism as a "rejection of Wheel of earthly and human life", that "in the final crisis <of the book> the inhuman aspect of the lama's Buddhism is also rejected" and proceeds to speculation whether Kim will return to play the Great Game or will not. Such nonsense but it's very common in writings of Europeans about Eastern beliefs. I consider such interpretations as intellectual contraband when Europeans trying to understand Eastern things input their own beliefs and conceptions determined by rationalistic philosophies of the West only draping them in Eastern clothes. Russian Tibetologist took this close to her heart and retorted hinting at my shallow knowledge of India or Tibet.

Very probably. I must dig deeper and should return to my books. I already renounced local TV for its distractions. Proliferated Indian news channels devote too much time to cricket (Bob Woolmer mysterious death) or stories like this I watched once the whole day - rats in police department of Delhi chewed up passport of socialite Bina Ramani (her passport was taken in course of investigation of Jessica Lal murder where she is important witness). Gorgeous diva was triumphantly giving interviews to journalists accusing police in harassment and waving damaged document. Whatever laxity of Delhi police why so much attention was given (prime news all day, invitation to evening talk-shows) to indignation of 50 something lady (looking not older than 30 plus) when so many problems around are not solved? Bizarre. I tried to meditate to clean my mind but it's "still lumpy and chaotic like an unmade bed" by Anne Cushman (editor of Yoga Journal) words.

You can see some photos of my current trip here.
Old photos I posted here.

Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
Wonderful stuff, worth waiting for.

lengthy discussions I held last week with three European ladies forced me to think that Asians have more in common with Europeans than they used to admit.

See, wisdom is to be found in India!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:07:01 AM EST
by whataboutbob on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:24:19 AM EST
In one of those sweeping generalizations that cause people here to bang their heads on the table, I see a broad cultural bi-polarity between Occidental and Oriental, which I shall call Greek (the naming of parts) versus Gestalt (unified concept).

Let me attempt an explanation...

There are two broad types of sculpture. One, such as stone carving, is where you take a large mass of material and remove the bits you don't want, to realise the image that you have imagined. The second, such as clay for casting, is to build up from small pieces, using armatures until the outer surface conforms to what you have imagined. Both processes, of course, involve a lot of feedback from interaction with the material.

Both, also, are about the process of resolving perceived figure/ground ambiguity - which appears to be a very basic 'talent' of the mind. Figure/ground is the same as saying what has meaning and what doesn't. Signal or noise? What is in the foreground (the figure), and what is merely background.

Our figure/ground mind  'talent' is largely dominated by our perception of visual phenomena ie those things that can be detected by human sight - which is a very narrow spectrum of radiation.

Were we to have able. through evolution,  to resolve atomic structures through sight, we would have been unlikely to make the same distinctions as we have. The thing I call a 'table', because I can see it as a discrete object (figure), lean on it, or tap it to confirm to myself its solidness, is, at an atomic level, no longer quite so discrete.

Now to Greek v Gestalt...

Occidental thought had its structured foundations in Greece - influenced by other cultures in contact with the Mediterranean coast. Those foundations are about giving things (even concepts) names, and how those names fit into a scheme. Like clay sculpture, it built out on an a series of armatures. It is an 'exploded view' of the world, that encourages people within it to worry more about how everything joins together in detail, and less about the whole thing - the sculptural surface.

Oriental culture seems to me to be more like stone carving - including contemplation of the 'ground' bits that need to be removed to achieve what has been imagined. It is this contemplation of the whole of the material before the vision is realised that makes the difference.

I do not know the exact reasons why this should be so. It could even be genetic, deep down, or evolved methods of mind-changing. I have taken an interest in all Eastern religions, philosophies and belief systems, and come to the conclusion that Oriental mysticism is quite different from Occidental mysticism. It is often expressed not in words, but in sensual experiences, such as music, or phenomena such as the 'darshan' (or the mystical experience of being in a vast multitude of people).

It is also more feminine: perhaps Occidental and Oriental are the yin and yang of the Earth? Perhaps they need to come into balance?

Perhaps we occidentals need to contemplate (not in words, but in experiences) the whole material, before splitting the stone.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 11:48:52 AM EST
I think you need to add qualifiers to any of this discussion because otherwise you lose the nuances that are important. What you're talking about is the dominant threads of those traditions on either side. You know my views on the East vs West cultural thingy.

Have you read up on the School of Names at all?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 11:59:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But there you are just being occidental again ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:03:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which bit? The School of Names reference or worrying about nuances?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The bit about the need to join part 576 to part 403a, so they become part 12001, which can then be attached to the headlamp assembly.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:12:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right. So the idea that culture is a set of fuzzily defined overlapping threads rather than something you can seperate into "Occidental" and "Oriential" is excessively reductionist?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is, if you are looking for alternative inspiration in problem-solving. The term figure/ground, for instance, is equally arbitary in that it separates complexities into bi-polar terms. The concept of figure/ground however remains instructive as an insight, even in its simplicity. That is all I argue for.

We've been through the metaphor - analogy argument here before, and learned all about Fitness Landscapes.

But to give a banal, yet Steinesque example: 'A rose is a rose is a rose'. Does it need to be dissected, so that the word 'is' is understood? Or is its principle effect as a tinkle of some kind in the mind - that you can't quite place. All Art is about those tinkles. They are not metaphors in the linguistic sense, they are the sound of stimulii splashing into the vast underground lake in a cavern that is the gestalt of the mind. They add nothing to the depth, but they disturb the surface for a while.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 01:04:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting that the name given to the Mohist leader of a unit in their networks was called a 'juzi' or chisel ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I coud dtell you a diary or two or hundreds about conversations with israelis...

it is very common for young people to go to South America or to India when they finish the army... almost everybody does it there. Most of the explanations about politics sound pretty much the one of a young post-army lady..a lthough some midde-eage englshs-speaking israelis will think in similar terms.

There is a pre/post army mind set.. but most israeli citizens never see combat ... and never appear int he territories.

Best talk with israelis... always the not mainstream people.. .like the people in charge of the exhibition of objects and pictures in tel_Aviv about the occupation... there you can really understand the occupation.. not form the palestinian propaganda and not from the israeli propaganda... but from soldiers with objects on the ground accused of being anti-israeli just because they explained their histories through pictures.

thanks for the diary..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 03:29:34 PM EST
This is a good way of telling us about what you're doing, FarEasterner, by means of these three encounters. Coming into this diary is like stepping into a quiet room where an older, slower, conversation is taking place, one that takes the necessary time to develop its meaning. Or its lack of it, or failings in understanding - that's not what matters most, it's not the moral that counts, it's the story itself. You give us timeless moments like that. Thank you.

And thanks for the fine photos, too.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 04:50:40 PM EST
That was exquisite.  

And the photos:  I die with envy!  

Also:  You remind me of when I traveled in India many years ago.  Hard to describe!  But good memories to have.  

by Gaianne on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:11:58 PM EST
First of all, thanks for a vivid and picturesque way of telling a travellers story, I have to admit that time and place was not a concept to me at all when reading trough your story; I was on a travellers path in India. :) The mountainous landscape in some parts of India is just breathtaking.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:11:57 AM EST
Thank you all for your comments and recommendations. I hesitated much what kind of staff I can bring here as this is mostly political and economical site run by Europeans and about Europeans.

There are intermittent rains and thunderstorms here in Dharamsala and power transmission lines are damaged often as the result the whole area is blacked out and I don't have opportunity to reply sooner. But rains have other side - I just have seen beautiful rainbow in the sky - fantastic view.

 

by FarEasterner on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:25:58 PM EST
We do try to have some content outside the political and economic, which many of us would view as means to an end rather than ends in themselves. What would the point of politics or economics if you couldn't enjoy an Indian rainbow?

So post away!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by FarEasterner on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 12:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you Far Easterner!  This diary was a wonderful break from the upsetting topics of the day and I became the "fly on the wall" of your conversations.  Rubbing the front legs together through the suspense of what both sides would reveal next...

Happy travels!

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:03:25 PM EST


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]