European Tribune

Sego-Sarko Debate Opinions

by An American in London
Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:10:43 AM EST

From the diaries (with title edit), an opinion of a community member - what are yours? ~ whataboutbob

I saw the debate last night and came away from it with different opinions of each candidate.


The most extreme impressions of both candidates are Segolene is a wonderful, decent person who is totally incompetent and whose fallback position in any economic policy dispute is 'let management and the unions negotiate and hopefully there will be a satisfactory outcome but I have no concrete proposals'.

Sarkozy struck me as middle level executive whose would be thrilled if he could have economic growth for the top 5% of the French people regardless of how the lives of the other 95% of the people were impacted negatively. Anotherwards he has been indoctrinated to a neocon philosophy now wreaking havoc in the US and the UK, two countries he is proud to hold up as examples of fine economic policy.

I thought Segolene made a big mistake by not showing what Sarkozy's policies would do to the French way of life by showing what economic growth in the US and the UK have done to decimate much of those countries' standard of living for the vast majority of their people.

She should have pointed out how the UK has the highest amount of children living in poverty amongst the OECD countries and the US have growth which benefits only the top 5% of the population. In the US 1/10th of 1 %-300,000 people earn more than 150 million people-the lowest 50% of the population. In addition the US has a high rate of infant mortality and a failing healthcare system. She should have pointed out what Sarkozy is proposing would only benefit the rich and put France at risk.

If France wants a 'Mussolini' who gives the impression the trains will run on time-meaning I can create growth then they will vote him in. If France wants a decent,caring person who will hopefully have competent advisors because she gives the impression she isn't competent; they will vote for her.

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So.. not a ringing endorsement of Royal...but more concern about Sarko (and we already have a ton of those).

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:01:37 AM EST
The impressions I stated were perceptions of the candidates, knowing very little about their actual policies. France would be mad not to vote for Royal as Sarkozy in his desire for 'growth' which actually means increasing the wealth of the already wealthy; would not care the least if he harmed 955 of the country in pursuit of his growth.
by An American in London on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:07:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for your reactions.
I share some of your concerns, but I did not see Royal as  incompetent- just, to some degree, caught in the old familiar bind between the need to develop a nuanced position and the need for brevity and impact.
When dealing with social problems, retreat into only the world of statistics is usually the sign of
superficiality and the forerunner to failure. Just aint that simple. And I did see Sarkozy as a calloping hyperkinetic egomaniac who is unaware of the results of Neoliberal economic policy on the US and UK- as Sego said, "You need to do your homework."

That said, one is saddened by the obvious things she left unsaid-- such as:

"a bit of study on the US prison situation might reveal a lot about where France does NOT want to go."
Or, in response to his jibes about "emotional responses";

"A good way to identify dangerous people is to be very careful of those who cannot show emotion when emotion is called for, or who can put "feelings" on and take them off, to change them like a convenient shirt."
God, he rings false.

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:35:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Contrary to popular perception I don't think bashing the US is a great idea or a missed opportunity.  This is the bind of opposing the US system, it is generally perceived as more successful and positive than it really is in pure economic on-the-ground terms.

The French, and the world, mostly, love the American idea.  To attack the US is to attack that idea.  It is best to avoid such an effort in a public, mass-media forum.  That is the job of behind-the-scenes work.  

by paving on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 03:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please post any new polls taken after the debate so we can see if there is any momentum for Royal. I do think LePen's declaration for his voters to abstain will hurt Sarkozy and Bayrou's undecided will end up breaking for Royal. Is it enough; I don't know but this election will be very close.

Are the French desparate enough for so called 'growth and more employment in bad jobs' to elect a despicable character like Sarkozy?

by An American in London on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:28:03 AM EST

Débat : Sarkozy jugé plus convaincant par 53% (sondage Opinionway)
   PARIS, 3 mai 2007 (AFP) - Nicolas Sarkozy a été jugé plus convaincant que Ségolène Royal lors de leur débat radio-télévisé de mercredi soir, selon un sondage Opinionway pour le Figaro et LCI rendu public jeudi.

53% des personnes interrogées ont jugé le candidat UMP "plus convaincant" contre 31% pour la candidate PS, et 16% qui répondent ni l'un ni l'autre ou ne se prononcent pas.

 Sondage effectué le 2 mai au soir par internet auprès d'un échantillon de 878 personnes ayant suivi le débat télévisé, issu d'un échantillon de 1.415 personnes constitué auparavant, selon méthode des quotas. Notice détaillée consultable à la commission des sondages.

    cgd/so/cb
        AFP



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:04:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ça fait chier

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:12:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm giving up on the French.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:17:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interested in moving to ETopia?

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:23:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be like Finland, except the climate would be Spanish, the food French, and (add your own...)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 10:47:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I imagine it as sort of Phallanstery for the 21st century.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 10:51:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Aaah - you mean Starship Hawking!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 10:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reminds me in some ways of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Army

A cousin of mine is a member.  Probably different conversations around the large dinner table, though.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:43:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Giving up on one's people is when you see a barely articulate chimpanzee with a radio on his back beat a decorated war vet whose only downfall is that he looked and spoke like an intellectual.

Whay I saw last night was rather pathetic, and neither candidates made a case that I should vote for them.

I'll vote Sego because she is well-meaning, as opposed to the potentially dangerous Iznogoud from the other side, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement.

(I was tough towards Kerry in the US, too. Why am I always being asked to vote for well-meaning clueless candidates.)

We have a expression in the States for what I saw last night: not ready for prime time.

by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:03:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have a expression in the States for what I saw last night: not ready for prime time.

Countries and cultures differ. Thank goodness not everyone is ready for American prime time.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:05:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The old "cultural exception" argument, eh? :-) Used in particular to justify bad TV. Which, in effect, this was.
by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There might be some truth to it (that you're a bit harsh).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:22:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am certainly a bit harsh, but it is because as someone up there so aptly said, this, to me, looked more like a debate between two candidates for the position of school board supervisor shot on the set of WPIG channel 56 in Schenectady, NY, not between two candidates for the executive power of one of the most important countries on the planet.

I've been harsh enough towards so many facets of the US for so long that I think I can look at some French thing and say, that sucks.

Watching two people from opposite sides cross verbal swords for two hours can't help but give you an insight into their styles. But is that ALL that should have been accomplished?

In ice skating, for example, you get free style but you also get to perform a number with certain  set pieces in it to show that you have the skill, the discipline and the method.

Same here. We got the free style, but we barely got anything else.

by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:38:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll take a good debate over good TV, if I must have the choice.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:26:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's not the "cultural exception" argument, not one whit. It's the argument that, though it may produce good series (if you like them), by and large, I utterly dislike (what I've seen of) the over-hyped crap that goes for news, discussion, reporting, and "talk" on American TV.

By saying cultures differ, I was politely saying fuck American prime time. :-)

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:45:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"A well-meaning clueless decorated war vet who looked and spoke like an intelectual" is a good description of Kerry.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 10:13:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Look and spoke like.

But I fear it went no further than that.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 10:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kerry has many other downfalls, Lupin.  You have battered wife syndrome?
by paving on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 03:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No surprise there.

The published opinion of the country is, of course, of huge psychological value, and I automatically cast doubt on the sincerity of this kind of poll. This one is by a market research organisation for the two most rabidly pro-Sarko media: Le Figaro and Martin Bouygue's news channel LCI.

But by tonight I expect we'll be hearing that the electorate thinks Sarko "won". So Sarko will "win".

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:50:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But don't discount the fact that out of a typical sample of humans, around 50% will be astonishingly gullible and dim-witted.

Predators like Sarko and Bush wouldn't exist if there was no ecological niche to support them.

Right-wing politics relies on that five to six year thinking time between 'Ra ra go strong patriotic leader!' and 'Er - wait a minute...'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:59:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I agree. But a bit of doctoring to be sure it just goes over the 50% mark...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gullibility is inversely proportionate to general culture and civic and historical knowledge.

It is in the interests of the monied classes to maintain a gullible and manipulatable audience, which is why onwership of the means of communication and the concentration thereof among the monied classes is such an important societal pivot point.

This is why public ownership of those means are so important to truly progressive political movements, not many of which can in fact be observed outside of France in the developed world these days, alas.

Given where we are in respective development, I would suggest your 50% is perhaps accurate for France, perhaps for most of the rest of Western Europe as well.

But you should consider raising the estimation to 80% when referencing America.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 12:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Someone said the other day that 50% of the population have an IQ below 100.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 12:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh.

That could be, though I understand that in parts of the state in the US where I live, at least according to Garrison Keillor, most everyone is above average, so I expect that some would want (fruitlessly) to take issue with that assertion.

Actually, for America, this is gospel truth writ large: a majority think they are in the top 20% of income strata, a decent (if unreliable) substitute for the practical application of iq.

All this being said, having an iq of 140 is useless if you are ideologically blinkered due to your poor (by design) formation.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 12:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's the evidence that Americans are more gullible than europeans? The sterling quality of the European governments? After all discerning population that elected Chirac so many times or better yet someone like Lothar Spath cannot be compared to a bunch of dumbass trailer trash, no?
by citizen k (sansracine yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 12:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spend any time in America lately?

Look at the hopelessly corrupt political system. The ruthlessly predatory economic system.

It's not just Bush and his cronies who buy in. It's the better part of the "other capitalist party".

Italy doesn't begin to come close to the ideological blinkers in America, and neither does the UK. And Spath is a blip compared to the noise on US media.

No, we're talking apples and oranges here. Anecdotes and an unfavorable trend in most of Western Europe.

But the vast majority of Americans, by and large, drink the kool-aid, as they say over here, day in, day out. I don't even think the old SU had such an ideological grip over its citizens than what you see here. There truly is no alternative, as Maggie would likely say.

And that owes to the 80%.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 12:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and yet Sarkozy is about to be elected.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 01:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1st of all, this isn't a given.

2nd of all, if he does, it will be by a bare majority, with a 50%-1 minority voting for a real socialist, and not "the other capitalist party".

What has happened in the US from 2001 to now could not conceivably happened in France.

Big difference.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 01:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember Bush lost the popular vote the first time, and won by a narrow majority the second time.

What has happened in the US from 2001 to now could not conceivably happened in France.

If terrorists placed a large bomb in central Paris that killed 3000 people, how would the public react politically?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 02:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I don't think this happened in America, either, though there was a bombing campaign in France in the early '90's, you may recall.

On the other hand, what happened on 911 almost happened in France as well. Islamic terrorists hijacked a plane and were planning on flying it to Paris. One rumor had it they intended to blow it up over the Eiffel tower.

The outcome of course was different than 911, but then this may just be a question of competence of the respective authorities in the US (bumbling) and France (top-notch in counter-terrorism).

And of course, shortly after this, the metro bombings in Paris. Or in the 80's how many times did Chez Goldenberg get blown up?

Again, not thousands of deaths (though if the GIA had succeeded in blowing that plane up over Paris, there likely would have been).

Of course, when the US lackeys in London was asked to jump for the US, they did, but when they were asked by the Quai des Orfevres to hand over metro bombing terror suspect Rachid Ramda to Paris, what did they say? "Can't be assured of a fair trial in France".

It took the brits 10 years to extradite him.


"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 03:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You didn't answer my question.

I'll be honest - there is nasty, petty, smug part of me that wants to see Sarkozy win for no other reason than to have a weapon for me to use against Europeans who think Bush got elected due to a defect in American character (as opposed to more generic human psychological factors). If he does win, I expect a lot of people here to throw a fairly large shar of the blame the Anglo press rather than challenge some deeply held views.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 04:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, to be fair, Sarko won't be as bad as Bush - who is? - but just a standard panderer to the business crowd and the rich. He'll fuck with the tax code a bit, support the US because that's just the thing to do and move everything a bit more in the favour of the top couple of per cent.

He's unlikely to kill hundreds of thousands of people for domestic political gain. You really outdid yourselves with Prince George I'm afraid.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 04:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European politicians don't have America's army. If they did, I wouldn't expect anything different. It's the inevitable result of too much power.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 05:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
American politicians have America's army because they chose to have it.

What you say is to Europe's credit, not the other way 'round.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 05:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not to anyone's credit - it is learning from history through the death of many millions of people. It plays a large role in my bleak view of the future - what hope is there for the US when Europe has such a complete emotional understanding of where this can lead, yet votes for right-leaning politicians who bait on the usual topics, and seems to be drifting to the right just as the US has over the past three decades?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 05:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you 100%. It is depressing.

I just think that while the US appears to be too far gone to have any hope of turning things around without a major <understatement> correction </understatement>, this isn't the case with most of the EU-15.

And the EU can rapidly turn things around once that <understatement> American correction </understatement> takes place, if but for the simple matter that democratic institutions are still more or less viable and comparatively free of corruption, and that solidarity means, viscerally speaking, something for most Europeans, whereas the infrastructure for either in the US is almost non-existant for the simple reason that the concept is so foreign.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 05:37:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course you are absolutely correct, being a smaller gangster means you are much more moral than your boss gangster.
by rootless2 (sansracine#yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am really concerned about the effects that a Sarkozy presidency will have on the EU. 3 years of Brown - Sarkozy - Merkel - Barroso may cause irreparable damage.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, to be fair, (2), I think you're exaggerating about Europeans believing Bush got elected due to a defect in American character. A lot of us here are concerned the Overton window is a long way to the right in American politics today. That's not the same thing.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 05:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know the reasoning is more sophisticated than to only include that, but I do see it, a lot. There is a strong undercurrent of cultural conflict on this site.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 05:14:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean like the pie-fights?
by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which I claim are usually initiated by an exchange between two Americans.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:56:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh.

I know better than to wish for that.

I did answer your question, though. First, it was that yes indeed France was attacked like this, but was able to fend it off a bit better. 1994-1995 was a big wave of terror but I don't recall France going and invading, say, Oran because of it, any of the attendant failings of the 4th estate or electing a jackbooted fool of a war criminal. I mean, Chirac was bad enough, but like I've said elsewhere, only slightly to the left of Bill Clinton. Not left enough, to be sure, but no Dubya, not by a long shot.

It's not a defect in character of the American people, though, it's an aspect of empire, the softness of character this engenders, and especially the herdish entitlement mentality that all empires, large and small, inevitably see. (OTOH, you may now understand how a Serb felt when Democratic supporters of Clinton's bombing campaign said similar things about them for having elected a Milosevic, for instance...)

And you have to admit, the average American's knowledge of the world, how it works, where things are and who they are relative to it is vastly inferior to virtually all peoples in Europe (with the possible exception of the English). And that contributes to inferior outcomes.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 05:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe like the Spanish people reacted when someone put 13 bombs in Madrid and killed 200 people?

Even the British didn't go for Blair's 90-day detention without trial after 50 people were killed by 4 bombs in Central London.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bush LOST the election to Gore despite the enthusiastic support of the entire power structure. On the other hand, Chirac kept winning. Are you going to tell me how much better the elephants are than the DLC? Extoll the virtues of Le Carniche Anglais or his predecessors? Perhaps we can discuss the governments of Bavaria or Baden-Wirtenberg or the delights of Hungarian neo-cons?
by rootless2 (sansracine#yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 02:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm confused? Do you mean PS elephants like Fabius or Jospin? Clearly, an elephant from the parti socialist is far superior to any mainstream political movement in the US. If you are a progressive, this is simply a fact.

As for German states, again, you are talking anecdotes here, not entire nations, but I'll put Merkel up against Clinton and see who falls out on the right and on the left. It's a tough call.  

And I'll go so far as to place Chirac in a better light than most of the Democratic party in the US as well, if it pleases you. After all, on important matters of war and peace, he got it right and most Democratic leaders didn't, prefering to assume the position for the neo-cons. (And truth be told, UMP social and economic policy under the chiracquiens is not appreciably different than your average Democrat. Maybe it's true the Chiracquiens are ever so slightly to the left of the Democrats, but not by much, and they certainly aren't to the right.)

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 03:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm confused? Do you mean PS elephants like Fabius or Jospin? Clearly, an elephant from the parti socialist is far superior to any mainstream political movement in the US. If you are a progressive, this is simply a fact.

Is it? That perhaps is something I believed back when Mitterand came into power and that nice rose in the fist looked so cool, but, in the end, the differences between the PS elephants and the UMP was hard for me to quantify. Perhaps one needs a more subtle eye.

As for German states, again, you are talking anecdotes here, not entire nations, but I'll put Merkel up against Clinton and see who falls out on the right and on the left. It's a tough call.

Compare Pelosi to Merkel. This will be easier. And tell me how for example Blair and Gerhard Schröder delivered the progressive agenda.  But certainly the richest and most powerful states in Germany are run by the right. No?

And I'll go so far as to place Chirac in a better light than most of the Democratic party in the US as well, if it pleases you. After all, on important matters of war and peace, he got it right

Really? So can you point me to his decisive actions to prevent genocide in Bosnia or Rwanda or to encourage democract in Cote d'Ivoire or Lebanon? His moral stand on French responsibility to former colonies? His opposition to arms trade and nuclear proliferation? No? Oh, you mean that he did not sign up for Bush's moronic adventure in Iraq but made some ineffective complaints quietly. Very impressive. A French leader takes such vast risks to sneer at US wars while actually not doing anything. He should get recognition for bravery - perhaps Bush has an extra Medal of Freedom to award.


 and most Democratic leaders didn't, prefering to assume the position for the neo-cons.

Actually, most Democratic House members voted no.


 (And truth be told, UMP social and economic policy under the chiracquiens is not appreciably different than your average Democrat.

On that we agree, but also not so different from the PS.


 Maybe it's true the Chiracquiens are ever so slightly to the left of the Democrats, but not by much, and they certainly aren't to the right.)

I don't know what "left" "right" means in concrete terms.  As far as I can tell, European social democrats are quite similar to Democrats except of course that Barbara Lee and Al Sharpton would be "greens" if there were any non-white Green leaders.

by rootless2 (sansracine#yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 05:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Chirac: You would do well to get your history right.

I don't want to defend a man I don't particularly care for, but Chirac was not President when Rwanda or Bosnia happened.

Nor, for that matter, were these events as simple as this comic book comment you make imply.

But if you want to deal with comic-strip color, we should point out that while these events happened before Chirac's watch, there were most definitely on Clinton's, and I don't remember him doing much if anything.

And at least Mitterand knew where the places were (he actually went to Sarajevo when it was under siege, while when Clinton finally sent military aid to UN forces in Rwanda, somehow it got sent to Uganda. Y'know, they rhyme???)

And name me one credible leader currently running for President of the US who voted against the war in Irak either in 2004 or in 2008? It's nice to see that the House had a majority of Dems vote against, but surely you know a majority of Senate Dems voted for, right? Seems you want the butter and the money for it here.

Ditto your Pelosi comment. That's nice that she's fairly center-left. Are you going to tell me Reid or Biden or Clinton or Dodd or Hoyer or Murtha or Feinstein or any of the others who voted for that war are really progressives like Nancy Pelosi? Nancy Pelosi is not, unfortunately, the Democratic party in America, far from it. Hillary Clinton is far closer to the center of power in that party than she is - follow the money.

Your Lucky Luke-style analysis of foreign affairs and contemporary history is duly noted.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re Chirac:

http://www.iht.com/articles/1995/07/15/assess_1.php
(and the answer to their question was "yes")

And he became PM in 1995 - see Rwandan timeline.

And of course, I know those events were not so simple. The Iraq war is not simple either. Inexcusable does not require simple.

As for Mitterand, his knowledge of geography is morally impressive.

The moral failings of the US Democrats, sadly, do not redound to the moral credit of the French government.

by rootless2 (sansracine#yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You show a stunning lack of understanding of how French political institutions work.

Foreign policy is the province of the President. One of the only ones, in fact, unless she decides to declare a state of emergency. Being a PM in cohabitation means next to nothing in this regard.

Your IHT article is equally uninformative; the facts discussed occur well after your original charge of inaction in the face of "genocide" in Bosnia. As for that Kosovo thing America finally got serious about....well, where was the genocide?

As for Irak, here the facts are relatively simple: naked imperial aggression by an American government bought and paid for by the wealthy, but financed via the future of its middle classes with the blood of its poor, via the best "democracy" American Kapital can buy.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And so, despite my typo, Chirac was President of France in 1995 oh great oracle of the intricacies of French politics.

May 1995 - Chirac wins election as President of France.

July 1995 - brave European peacekeepers at Srbrenica "safe area" turn over unarmed civilians to General Ratko Mladić's soldiers who murder more than 8000 of them. Chirac bravely and honorably makes some statements and even speeches. The Court at the Hague later declares this to be genocide, but since there is no way to blame the USA, we know it must be nothing of the sort.

by rootless2 (sansracine#yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 10:54:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm confused.

Are we talking about Rwanda, Srebrenica, or Bosnia?

The Rwandan genocide happened in 1994. Mitternad was President, conservative Edouard Balladur, who Chirac would go on to beat in the 1995 Presidential election by running to the center, was PM in cohabitation. Chirac has also been PM under Mitterand in an earlier cohabitation government, but not while the tragedy of Rwanda took place.

The Bosnian conflict and the resulting ethnic cleansing began in 1992. Over 100,000 dead and almost 2 million people displaced, with the ethnic cleansing in the center-eastern part of Bosnia, where Srebrenica is, beginning in that year. The area was considered very strategically important to the Bosnian Serbs, who were angling for their own independant state, starting in 1992, and most of this area had already been "cleansed" of Bosniaks by the Bosnian Serbs well before 1995, with Srebrenica, a so-called UN safe-haven, a notable exception.

The Srebrenica genocide occurred weeks after Chirac became President, as Dutch troops let in Mladic's war criminals and 8,000 men and boys were massacred. A Dutch government fell because of the shame of this, though the siege conditions which obtained for the Dutch peacekeepers, which reduced them and residents of Srebrenica alike to scrounge for food due to lack of it, and do foot patrols because there was no fuel, certainly couldn't have made protecting Srebrenica very easy. Clearly, the blame for Srebrenica lies squarely at the feet of the Bosnian Serbs themselves, as they have in fact admitted. Far less the UN, and certainly not Jacques Chirac.  

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri May 4th, 2007 at 08:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What we are talking about is your sunny optimism about the superiority of French politicians over the benighted hacks in the United States. So far we have touched on ex-Vichy official the Socialist Francois Mitterands uninterest in the role of French trained troops in the Rwanda genocide and the efforts of the conservative Chirac to speak grandl y as the Serbian genocide spread during his watch followed later by his attempt to blame the victims in Rwanda while giving shelter to various bloodstained despots from around the world - all of course more than made up for by his brave and similarly effective quibbling during Bush's invasion of Iraq.

As far as I can tell, while Americans are generally in total ignorance about what goes on beyond their borders, Europeans are generally in total denial about what their own governments do and indulge in a great deal of unwarranted self-congratulation about how their amoral power obsessed and incompetent hacks are no doubt far better than those Yankee swine.

by rootless2 (sansracine#yahoo.fr) on Sat May 5th, 2007 at 11:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your wrong about the UK. They have the same blinkers with Blair and New Labour just being the more attractive Tories. Look at the inequality from the top earners to the rest of the country and you will find it has a similar ratio to the US.
by An American in London on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 03:01:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PS reaction


Communiqué de presse de François REBSAMEN et Jean-Louis BIANCO
Directeurs de campagne de Ségolène ROYAL

A qui profite un tel sondage?

L'institut Opinion Way a déjà à plusieurs reprises démontré son manque de fiabilité. Sans aucune précision sur les marges d'erreur, cet organisme proclame que Nicolas Sarkozy serait le vainqueur du débat d'hier soir sur tous les sujets économiques et sociaux, abandonnant les restes d'empathie à Ségolène Royal pour les thèmes dits compassionnels. François Rebsamen et Jean-Louis Bianco, directeurs de campagne de Ségolène Royal, s'insurgent contre ces pratiques et dénoncent des manoeuvres de commande .



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good - now let them get out there and blitz the media, making sure the hacks hesitate before parroting that "according to the polls" Sarko won the debate.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:15:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to worry, there are other ways to resist and create.

At least, resistance is still possible in France. Let's see the bastard try "reforms", those idiots who'll vote for him aren't the ones in the streets anyway. The old, flaccid and retired Sarko supporters will spend the day watching on their tv what happens, flipping back to johnny hallyday concert videos to enjoy the nostalgia they feel for les trente glorieuses that drives so many of them an explains a lot of Sarko's latest rhetoric on '68.

And, let's be objective about this. Penchant for authoritarianism aside, which I find truly distasteful, Sarko is hardly Bush. Ideologically I find him rather soft, definitely right-wing with some neo-lib tendancies, not far from Clinton (either one) or many of the other Democratic candidates in the present field so many Americans seem so happy about.

She may still win. Lots of moving parts, including Bayrou's influence, who appears to be hardening against Sarko, and Le Pen's consigne, it must be a tough environment to poll in, the fact they appear still relatively close (53/47) yet immobile points me to a suspcion the pollsters can't figure out what the underlying dynamic is, that they haven't changed their bucket sampling.  

There's also the legislatives, where Bayrou's project may bear fruit. The Hallyday fan club (full disclosure, I once shared drinks with the guy) will vote for Sarko, but will they vote for the faceless UMP guy whose party hasn't done shit for France for 12 years? Less certain. All those Bayrou votes reported to Sarko do not report to UMP in all likelihood.

We shall see, but there's no sense in despairing for France. You want a country to despair, think like lupin, he's got the right idea. These are tough times to be an American.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 10:59:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If Royal loses, it will be critical for the PS to continue the campaign and save the eating-their-own for a party congress after the legislative elections. It's possible that the glee of the neoliberal English-language press at the election of Sarkozy might be used to get people to force a cohabitation.

But I'm not optimistic, instant infighting (just add water!) and disarray at the legislatives is far more likely.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 11:15:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is what the Bayrou/Royal tie-up last week was for. If Royal loses, there will be a PS/PD alliance led by a number of respected and young leaders probably headlining DSK as well, and you will see a social democratic alternative to a UMP which only has a veneer of Sarkozy to paper over a decade of poor performance.

It's not my ideal but hey, it's better than the alternative.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 11:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would move the centre right just like elsewhere.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 04:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would also leave an opening for a largish party left of the PS. Coupled with electoral reform towards proportional representation, it might not be such a bad thing.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:43:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here are the up to the minute results of an onliine BBC poll as to who won the debate. It is a as scientific as  the Opinionway poll which I understand to be also an internet poll.

BBC Poll:

Who do you think won the debate?
Segolene Royal
 48.27%  
Nicolas Sarkozy
 32.78%  
Neither
 18.94%  
9944 Votes Cast

by An American in London on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 11:23:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LeMonde's online poll, which they had the sense not to report, showed her "winning" the debate by a score of about 51 to 37. Equally meaningless FWIW.
by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 01:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw that this AM and was really pissed off -- first of all the methodology appears to be that they sent out emails inviting people to come to a website to respond. Thats preposterous on the face of it, and moreover ensures a sample that is skewed towards the better off who have internet access at home (it was done Wed night/ Thurs am).

As proof, notice the strong preference among the BAyrouiste sample -- 75% for Sarkozy? Thats completely inconsistent with every other poll we've seen, which shows a plurality or a majority of Bayrou voters supporting Royal.

I also notice this was released shortly after a few stories had come out quoting non-alligned experts to the effect that Royal had won, including Bayrou himself, and the Monde story quoting PPDA hiimself that little Nico was "Decu" afterwards.

Its pure spin.

Listen, I think all the frustration and nerves and angst should be pushed towards motivating people to vote for Royal -- and emphasizing she can indeed win.

In almost every contested election, and this one appears to be no different, the margin of victory is always smaller than the number of voters who decide in the last 72 hours. They may merely opt to confirm their pre-existing tendency but they consciously make their decision in the final days. And moreover, in those final hours, the better known candidate is often at a disadvantage, because opinions of him or her are better formed.

So there is a real chance that if the impression of Royal going into the final weekend is that she can win, that she's showed she's ready, and that every vote will matter, there's at the least a motivation for every last wavering voter to vote, and to cast a real, not a blanc, vote.

by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 01:11:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry -- replied to the wrong message. My comment referred to the OpinionWay poll's methodology.
by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 01:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are there any protections in the actual election vote tabulating structure which would disallow any 'US Republican style vote suppression or mischief' in which Sarkozy and his minions might want to do to guarantee his election?

Anotherwards; is it possible Sarkozy and his party could steal the election like Bush tried to do against Gore and succeeded against Kerry?

by An American in London on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 03:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French voting system is rather trustable and trusted, with the exception of voting machines that are being introduced in a few precincts. In paper ballot precincts, counting is done by voluntary veters with oversight by both parties, and every single precinct has to publish results - they will also be published in the local dailies, etc... and the sums aren't that hard to do.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 04:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

who is totally incompetent


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:31:16 AM EST
Jerome,

She struck me as not knowing her facts and having an incompetent way about expressing her economic policies. The 'totally incomptent' phrase was what I gathered would be the extreme impression people would have from the debate. Her finest moment was taking Sarkozy to task over his duplicitous use of the handicapped school issue. Her worst moment was her arrogance in thinking nuclear only produced 17% of electricity when it is the source of 70%, even greater than Sarkozy's stated 50%

by An American in London on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:36:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bilan énergétique 2006 (pdf) - p.17

Electricity is 23% of final energy demand
Thus nuclear, 78% of that (p.9 above), is 18% of primary energy consumption.

(She did say electricity in the debate, but her assertion is correct as far as "energy" is concerned)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think what struck me was her arrogance in stating it even if she actually meant energy consumption. Hopefully it won't effect people's impressions of her like what happened to Ford in the Ford/Carter debate when he stated Poland was free and not part of Russian dominated Eastern Europe in 1976.

Splitting hairs and I hope she is elected but wouldn't be shocked if the neocons working in tandem with the Muiti nationals were able to elect Sarkozy.

by An American in London on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:58:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
how Sarkozy is "knowledgeable" and she's "arrogant".

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:18:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome,
Who is right here?
Nuclear power in France:
50%--Sarko
17%--Royal
80%--International Herald Tribune (today)

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on percentage of what. See Jerome's comment above:

Nuclear is (about) 80% of French electricity production;

and about 18% of total energy use.

Royal should have said 17% of energy, not of electricity, but she was a lot righter than Sarkozy who appears to have picked his number on a sort of 50-50 basis, like, I've got half a chance of being right and half of being wrong.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:57:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
seems weird to me that neither candidate knew the answer to this.  both energy and the environment are basic issues, and they can't answer this question?
by wchurchill on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 12:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She had the right information. She just said "electricity" instead of energy, with the right number.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 12:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, she succeeded in making nuclear energy less important in the eyes of the public.  This is a solid effort.  The difference between energy/electricity is probably beyond the capacity of most anyhow and certainly beyond the interest of the vast majority.

I've been particularly fond of Royal's bold efforts against nuclear power.  This is something the French actually did right, has major international implications (her position vis-a-vis Iran) and yet she is willing to oppose, from an ecological standpoint, in order to encourage renewables.

Whatever happened to nuclear waste, anyway?

by paving on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 03:31:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
About the economy, if Royal is elected president (and the left performs well in the parliamentary elections), she will most probably name Dominique Strauss-Kahn as Prime Minister. He is a reknown economist (which means he knows the limits of economists) and has been one of the best Ministers of Economy and Finance.

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:34:08 AM EST
Jerome has pointed out before that the French economy did better under Chirac/Jospin than under the right-wing ministers that preceded or followed Jospin. And he has endless charts to show that Democrats do better than Republicans in the US, and Labour better than the Tories in the UK. But the economic press belongs to the wealthy, and for them a right-wing government is better.

Bush is a symptom, not the disease.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:39:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We all know the facts the economy does better under Jospin in France and the Democrats in the US. The problem is Segolene never mentioned it nor do the Democrats when they have Presidential debates. Unfortunately 80% of the people in the US and France get their news and opinions from media which is controlled by multi national companies who would love to have Sarkozy as President.

Segolene should have both pointed out what 'growth' has done to decimate the US and UK economies and how the Socialist policies are what has made the French way of life the envy of the world. She didn't and considering the importance of the one debate; I thought both her and Sarkozy were poorly prepared by their handlers. The good thing is Sarkozy was able to show what a phony, despicable person he is.

by An American in London on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 06:46:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You've picked up on the single most important talking point a left-leaning leader can make.

But only Edwards in the US is making any mention at all of what 'reform' means to ordinary people.

You're right - it was an extraordinary gaffe by Royal, and yet more proof of just how much the Right dominates the economic discourse by setting the frames for it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:02:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Truthfully I don't think most people are interested in that conversation nor are they informed enough to follow it.  This is why it's hardly spoken of and the few people who care can find out without being told.

The question is one of greed versus happiness.  As societies and cultures we have the ability to choose a pursuit of wealth path versus a pursuit of happiness path.  Both come at the possible expense of the other.  While in practice it may be historically evident that one tends to do better than the other it is the risk and the gambling impulse that must be tempered.  Boring "facts" don't get the job done.

The effort is in getting the society to choose a fair, equitable society over the possibility of hitting the jackpot.  In the US we have failed miserably at this task.  The French have a greater inclination to choose correctly.  The messenger is what the election is about and Royal has finally shown herself a genuinely capable messenger.  I believe the debate may have helped her significantly.

by paving on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 02:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a failure of the left to articulate a future that is attractive to more than the professiional class.
Royal's invocation of Mitterand was unfortunate, but all too typical.
by rootless2 (sansracine#yahoo.fr) on Sat May 5th, 2007 at 11:36:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does Royal use DSK in the campaign? There are great benefits to be had, IMHO, in campaigning as a 'team'. Think the Democrats should try this in '08. Just clarifying who they will put in what position from the get-go.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:14:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My wife and I are political junkies; we've watched US political debates all through our adult lives; hell, I still remember the Carter / Reagan debate.

This was our first French debate; I have no idea how they do things in the UK, Germany, etc.

We thought that this was a terrible debate.

In the US, a journalist asks a specific question, e.g.: what are your plans regarding mining Helium-3 on the Moon.  Then Candidate A has something like 3 minutes to tell you what he proposes to do; Candidate B then has 3 minutes to tell you why Candidate A is full of shit; then Candidate A has another 1-1/2 minute to laugh contemptuously at what Candidate B just said.

Then we move on to another question.

What this does is that it tells us, the viewers, where the candidates stand, and how they rebutt each other, on a very specific set of (presumably important) issues.

It is extremely informative, though obviously not enough to prevent a barely articulate chimp with a radio on his back from being elected, but I digress.

What I saw last night was a Cafe du Commerce argument, a show put together at the last minute by Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland in a barn.

The proceedings were chaired by two barely coherent, haggard-looking animatronics that looked like they'd seen better days at Eurodisney circa 1985 -- or maybe the aim was to make the two candidates look sparkier by contrast, like Cleopatra surrounding herself with monkeys to maximize the impact of her beauty?

The two "potiches" (come to think of it, two pots of geraniums would have been better) did not keep the two candidates from talking over each other, drifting into non sequiturs, being all over the place without rhyme or reason. It might have made for an amusing Café confrontation, but it wasn't the kind of serious wonky politics we're used to in the United Fascist States.

Segolene appeared to have a broom up her ass, except when she made us wonder if she had PMS. Sarko was weasely and condescending; he reminded me of the second-banana villain in the Disney movies (not the Big Bad, the one that hunches and saunters about, cackling about what a cunning plan this is). In fact, as I type this, I realize now that he reminded me of Blackadder, but not as funny.

After an hour, I had enough. After two hours, I realized that I was starting to miss George Bush, and I knew that that was bad.

Moving on from the format and style of the show to the actual contents.

I'm 100% in accord with the diarist. Segolene came across as well-meaning but clueless. Sarko came across as competent but dangerous, and deceitful.

Special demerits go to Sarko for pointlessly obsessing about the "35 heures" which, in the end, he has done and will do nothing about; and to Sego for the lunatic idea of having female cops escorted home by male cops.

France ought to be reasonably ashasmed of itself; this is the overall performance I would expect in a comic book, not in real life.

by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:18:44 AM EST
Although this particular debate was of a very low level compared to the previous ones, the US way makes it seems programs are just a bunch of issues : Abortion + Drug Wars + Gun Control + Irak + Trade etc...

But policy and policy making is about having a vision for society rather than a list of issues checked against the voter's personal opinions. New issue may arise, unknown at the time of the debate : how will the politician react to it ?

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:46:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not an either/or thing, fromage OU dessert, policies OR personalities.

I think it was quite clear from the US format (which also leave room for personal statements and rebuttals) how GW Bush was going to react -- much to our collective dismay.

The format I saw last night was extremely unsatisfactory and wasteful. And the moderators were nowhere to be seen.

by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 07:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For me, the "animatronic" chairs were one of the better features of this debate. I am so sick of MSM clowns grandstanding and using important national and international issues as an entertainment platform. To make it fairer, though, maybe they could flash a topic on a screen, and the candidate who presses the buzzer first gets to go first? Then they wouldn't need anyone from the MSM at all!

I also think Royal came across not as "clueless" but rather as "passionate." Sarkozy, was cool, manipulative, condescending and more Republican than I thought it was possible for a non-American to be.

Re "the actual contents," I agree 100% that these fell flat. It reminded me of a local debate in the U.S., say for county supervisor, where the big issues are fluoridation and when are they going to put traffic lights up at that dangerous exit by the mall. You really wouldn't know from watching this debate that French presidents have anything to do with foreign policy issues, except whether or not the Turks are European or just dark-skinned "natives."

by Matt in NYC on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:10:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For me, the "animatronic" chairs were one of the better features of this debate. I am so sick of MSM clowns grandstanding and using important national and international issues as an entertainment platform.

I know what you mean, but there has to be a middle-of-the-road between CNN's brand-new plastic action figures (Wolf Blitzer's kung-fu grip, anyone?) and these tired, worn-out toys of the 1970s we saw last night.

I also think Royal came across not as "clueless" but rather as "passionate."

"Clueless" in terms of the the solutions or proposals she put forward; the "passionate" angle is what I was referring to as "PMS". Okay, I admit I'm not biased towards emotional fits; maybe in Italy she would have come across as the epitome of coolness and composure. But it didn't work for me.

Sarkozy, was cool, manipulative, condescending and more Republican than I thought it was possible for a non-American to be.

To our jaded eyes, transparently so, I'd say, yes.  I like my Blackadder comparison; you could almost see the wheels turning, oozing insincerity... with a thought balloon reading "I have a cunning plan" above his head, he would have been perfect.

It reminded me of a local debate in the U.S., say for county supervisor, where the big issues are fluoridation and when are they going to put traffic lights up at that dangerous exit by the mall.

Bingo! Couldn't have put it better myself!

Honestly, escorts for female cops!!!!

by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:23:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In France they realize that making stupid policy statements in a debate is pointless.  There is plenty of information out there regarding policy decisions to look at if you are so inclined.  In fact TF1 had a nice review of those in their lead-up to the debate itself.  Watching that I was reminded of an era that doesn't exist anymore here in America!, where political issues can be presented in a non-judgmental manner.  Incroyable!

Anyway, back to the debate, it is about personality.  The two candidates face off, speak freely within a loose structure and show themselves to the public.  After this amount of time one can begin to understand how a person reacts, thinks and feels.  Electing a leader, especially in a more Federal system such as the one in France, is more than policy statements.

All that said it's appalling that you'd defend a system that has produced such AWFUL and TERRIBLE results as our own.  Perhaps this system that we have is a REASON for the hoodwinking?  duuuuhhh.

by paving on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 02:41:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
>Eurodisney circa 1985

Hey, Eurodisney only opened way later in 1992! I still remember the shameless promotion in all the Mickey-Mouse magazines when I was a kid :)

by Almanax on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:29:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ooops. Major gaffe! I stand corrected.

But they did look awfully worn and tired-out.

And that guy, PPDA, what's with the haircut? Why not leather and ray-bans then.

by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:31:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How dare you insult PPDA's hair, you fake Frenchman, you!

He has an annual implant addition, it's something the French watch out for. So what if the result looks like a dog-chewed rug? It's a French institution!

For PPDA fun you should watch the Guignols de l'Info on Canal Plus at around 8 pm. Introduced by a PPDA puppet.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a dog-chewed rug...

A most apt description. You have a way with words, sir.

We don't subscribe to Canal Plus, and while I know OF Les Guignols, I'm afraid that, with the exception of the occasional clips and a few segments taped by a friend for us a long time ago, we're a bit out of that cultural loop.

by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 08:57:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We don't subscribe either. Les Guignols is en clair, free of charge.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:00:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? I thought it was a paychannel 24/7.  

When is it?

by Lupin on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is an free tranche every day between 6pm or so to 8:30pm

Les Guignols are at 8pm (or just a copule minutes before).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 3rd, 2007 at 09:21:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]