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Ooooooooooooooooopen Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 01:39:14 PM EST


The blade of a Repower 5MW wind turbine (big pdf!)


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in this thread, but it's such a nice picture...

Note that the report I link to is pretty interesting as, in addition to spectacular pictures, it lists all the main sub-contractors of Repower for this turbine.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 01:41:28 PM EST
Just hooooooooooooooooooow long is this?

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!
by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 01:49:32 PM EST
In the paper version of the report I linked to, they helpfully provide a transparent page with the outline of two soccer fields to superpose with the picture of the full rotor - the rotor does cover both fields.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 01:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so a blade would be 1 soccer field?
by zoe on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and the other two blades, at their angle, reach out the two opposite corners of the "other field", if you can imagine them side by side along the long side and the rotor in the exact middle of the two.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd like to see some discussion of how often these systems require maintenance and their expected lifespan.

Given that they are operating in a harsh environment (especially salt air) this must be a factor. I also haven't seen any discussion of their ability to withstand severe weather. It is one thing to immobilize the rotor during high wind conditions, but what happens during a hurricane or other strong storm.

Even a stationary rotor will be subjected to strong forces. I'm not saying that these factors haven't been considered, just that we non-experts haven't seen citations to the studies.
 

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:02:12 PM EST
Given that it's my job to worry about these things, I can assure you that the questions have been asked, and that we've found the answers satisfactory. With 15+ year financings, we absolutely need to know.

Lifespan onshore is 20-25 years; for now, the same is expected offshore. In both cases, that includes major refurbishing or all-out repowering (putting bigger turbines on the same spot) after 10-15 years.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:55:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is it the same onshore andoff shore?  The environmental conditions seem radically different to me...  Do you think it is fair to say (to us, not your clients) that some of this is unknown and only time will tell?  

Please don't think anyone's questioning your judgement at all; we're just curious.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. turbines have been toughened for offshore conditions in order to have similar lifespans as onshore. Some have now been specifically designed for offshore. That includes better insulation/harmetic seals, etc..., and different procedures for access and maintenance.

  2. there is uncertainty even onshore for the newest, biggest turbines, as none has ever been in service that long. On the other hand, smaller but nevertheless similar models have, and experience is satisfactory. Plus, it's not like it's rocket science either. Mechanical engineering, electrical engineering and civil works are not exactly experimental technologies. and offshore work, especially in shallow areas not that far from the coast are not completely unheard of either

so what you say is fair, but a lot of people seem to think that these are reasonable risks to take.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 07:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the typical relative cost of the head+generator+blade relative to all the fixed location costs land termination+cable+fundations+tower for offshore turbine?

I guess lifespan affects more the top than the other part, hence somewhat dismishing the global risk.

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:25:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the split does really go like this

per 1MW, you'll typically have
turbine + tower: EUR 1M
foundations : EUR 0.5M
cable : EUR 0.5-1M
other: 0.5-1.5M (electrical equipement, onshore cable, development, finance)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 04:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the data!

So the sexy "engineering" operational risk (turbine+blade stress) is limited to about 20-30% even if it falls down to replacing the whole top, with a premature replacement if needed probably bringing better efficiency and increase in life span.

The rest of the technology has been in place for a while for offshore oil and regular eletrical stuff so I think not really in the "risky" category.

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:37:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for answering, btw.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 04:20:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The nukes were supposed to last for 30-40 years, and in reality they'll stay for 60. Who knows what breakthroughs in material science or just plain over-engineering will do to the lifetime of wind mills?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 06:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And while salty air is a nasty environment, so is pressurised or boiling water combined with intense neutron bombrdment.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 07:18:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
October 2008: Fly to Australia
6 weeks later: fly to SE Asia
10.5 months after that: Fly home from London after working my way across Asia and Europe

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:05:26 PM EST
So you should be in NW europe in time for ET Paris 2009. See yuz then.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:08:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Definitely planning on France for a bit.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do apologise for starting up another discussion about the weather but I think we are experiencing a monsoon season in Wales.  We've had a fairly sunny, hot morning and then at around 5.20 there was an immense and very sudden downpour accompanied by thunder and lightning, only to be replaced by sunshine again now.

All this hot sun/massive downpour, Jekyll and Hyde nature is hugely confusing for me.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:10:59 PM EST
And here I was just about to ask rdf if there were really the possibility of hurricanes in Scotland...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dunno about Scotland, but England gets tornadoes....

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor
by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We certainly get a number of tornados in the UK every year and there have been hurricanes too. They seem to happen when I am abroad.

Most famously was this hurricane that beloved weatherman Michael Fish told us wasn't going to happen.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:18:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe that Mr Fish gets off on a technicality, it wasn't actually a hurricane, it just had hurricane force winds.

Yea, right. I spent the whole day with me Dad chainsawing up fallen trees after that one. A friend on the S Coast said that they were relatively lucky, the contents of all the houses in the street ended up in the garden at  the top of the road. So everybody spent all day sorting out their stuff.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahhh, same difference!

It knocked trees down in Warwickshire too, all the way up in the Midlands. Half our garden had fallen down when we got back from holiday but luckily the house was fine.

That must have been a very neighbourly event, picking out belongings from another person's garden. How surreal.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:32:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At that time I was driving medical supplies for a hospital laundry from the midlands out to all points of the country. I had an evening run down to London delivering all of the green clothing used in operations. I rang work from just outside of Cambridge to tell them I didn't know what people were going on about with all of this bad weather as I hadn't seen any. About 5 miles further on I was weaving amongst downed trees and lorries poking precariously from ditches.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 08:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kind of sounds like summer in Texas, almost.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor
by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:16:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

- Storm sweeps across East Flanders

Mon 16/07/07 - East Flanders was hit by heavy rain, hail and high winds on Monday morning. Trees were uprooted by the wind and several buildings were damaged by lightning.
     
 


The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't worry, there's yet another programme on Ch 4 tonight explaining that there's no such thing as global warming.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh goody, I feel very reassured now.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I do apologise for starting up another discussion about the weather but I think we are experiencing a monsoon season in Wales."

Yup. There is a european monsoon. Normally it's sufficiently weak that we don't notice it amongst all the 'normal' weather that the UK gets, plus it generally only lasts long enough to muddy the fields at Glastonbury and ruin a few days of Wimbledon.

Every now and again, like this year, we have a strong one that lasts well beyond the summer soltstice which is the ultimate driver of the phenomenon. Climate Change might make the strong years more frequent or possibly it won't; figuring out how the regional scale systems will respond to increased warming is notoriously hard.

Regards
Luke

-- #include witty_sig.h

by silburnl on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 07:39:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to have broken here - we're into normal weather: showers and sun, though it's still a bit cool.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 07:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's pretending such today but we still have the situation of looking in one direction to see blue sky and strong sunshine, just to turn around and see massive grey clouds full of storms heading over.

Don't let the weather fool you, Colman.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 08:24:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You forget where I live: if I see sunshine 25% of the time in summer I consider myself to be doing well. It's pouring rain at the moment, but I had a nice stroll with the dogs in the  sun this morning and we managed to dodge showers last night and eat (a slightly rushed) meal in the evening sun.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 08:26:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't actually think Europe/UK had monsoons.  That's interesting, thanks.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 08:25:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been rather peripatetic these last 2 weeks, and happened to chance upon this beer novelty:



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:26:43 PM EST
Interessante

http://www.larougetdelisle.com/

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ooof. What is it like?  Jilly Goolden-speak or Helen-speak will do.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the web site it's a blonde beer, kinda like Leffe, but as it's french probably a little bit thinner with a faint high sugary top note and fizzier.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Donkey piss... ???

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:17:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dunno, only dvx can really answer that. French beer ain't common here.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 04:23:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At first sip it tastes rather like a normal "lager", but from the second sip on you notice a slight (but not unpleasant) anise taste/sensation spreading over your tongue, which blends surprisingly well with the very mild hops flavor.

It is also a rather strong beer (6%).

It's not something I would want to drink regularly. But it is something I could see myself drinking again.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 03:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Microbreweries are fun. See this beer too.

They have definite ideas of where those don't accept the disclaimer should go.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somewhat similar to this.

http://www.wychwood.co.uk/cgi/pd/pd.cgi?image=/pd/images/art_lagerboy_taste.jpg&title=Afraid+you +might+taste+something+Lagerboy+Postcard&form=form-basic.html

Tho' I personally don't really like Wychwood beers much

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:43:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I´ve been missing my two Cologne buddies!  Overworking, or wassup?

By the way, I never worry about it until I get really peri-pathetic, but even that passes (and becomes truly-pathetic).


Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:01:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno about Crazy Horse, but I've simply been away.

... which I can do in good conscience as long as I know you're here to hold the fort! ;-)

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 03:55:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Judge spares bull that's on Moo Tube

Izzy posted a link on the salon a couple of days ago about a sacred bull that has been at the centre of a fight to keep it from being slaughtered after it was diagnosed with Bovine TB.  A judge ruled today for the Welsh Assembly to over turn it's decision to slaughter the animal.

Interesting precedent to set, the whole saga has been in our regional news for ages.

Shambo's plight raised intense arguments about whether public health concerns superseded religious rights.
...
The caretakers argued that the tuberculosis diagnosis was inconclusive, that he could be treated if sick and that killing him would violate their right to worship; Hindus regard cattle as sacred.


Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:28:29 PM EST
I regard beer as sacred, but it don't stop me drinking it.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But you're a priestess.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ur, located on the Euphrates River in what is now modern-day Iraq, was founded in 6,000 B.C., home of the moon goddess Nanna. By the 3rd millennium B.C., it was the most powerful and prosperous city in Mesopotamia.

This is home to Lady Puabi, Queen and High-Priestess, brewer of beer.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cor, strike a light! I was only mucking about, and it turns out to be true!

<deep obeisance>

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And by law only women could brew and sell beer.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 09:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a characteristic of medieval (English at least) life too, hence the name Brewster. ( -ster suffixes are female).

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 02:13:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
like newscaster, gangster, barrister, fraudster, hamster?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 03:36:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we remove the -ster and put -er we get that barrister is a female barrier and hamster is a female hammer.

y'know, the former makes a lot of sense now.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:58:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the update!  I must confess, I was sort of rooting for Shambo.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:58:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite right. the TB angle wasn't such a very big deal, given the circumstances (not an animal in the the commercial circuit, will remain pretty much isolated till its natural death...) There was no reason to be hyper-strict about it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:23:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So are we all in agreement that 315 gallons of radioactive water flushed into the Sea of Japan is no biggie?  I mean, the oceans are so vast.  What's a gallon of nuclear waste here and there?  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:43:05 PM EST
The fish and seaweed are already full of mercury and other pollutants, so this won't do any more harm.

</snark>

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 02:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How did this go from no leak to 1.5 litres to 315 gallons in less than 12 hours? I thought the nuclear industry was more skilled at covering stuff up.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Calibrate the current news with your second sentence...

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:41:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was my thought...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First no leak, then 1.5 l, then 315 gal, now... Anyone's guess.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the BBC is guessing up to 40 litres.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Chicago Tribune, Forbes, CNN and other US sources are reporting:

About 315 gallons of water apparently spilled from a tank at one of the plant's seven reactors and entered a pipe that flushed it into the sea, said Jun Oshima, an executive at Tokyo Electric Power Co.


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I want to know is: 315 gallons of what? How many Becquerel? How many Rem? What's the half-life?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 03:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
315 gallons of radioactive water

The leak was not announced until the evening, many hours after the quake. That fed fresh concerns about the safety of Japan's 55 nuclear reactors, which supply 30 percent of the quake-prone country's electricity and have suffered a long string of accidents and cover-ups.

About 315 gallons of water apparently spilled from a tank at one of the plant's seven reactors and entered a pipe that flushed it into the sea, said Jun Oshima, an executive at Tokyo Electric Power Co.

Officials said there was no "significant change" in the seawater near the plant, which is about 160 miles northwest of Tokyo. "The radioactivity is one-billionth of the legal limit," Oshima said of the leaked water.

Eliot Brenner, a spokesman for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission in Washington, said the agency told Japan's government it was ready to provide assistance if needed but had not received any request for help.

Brenner said he didn't have details about the incident. But a U.S. nuclear industry official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the incident was a Japanese affair, said the transformer fire and water leak occurred in systems linked to different reactors.
 (...)

First word of trouble at the Kashiwazaki Kariwa power plant was a fire that broke out at an electrical transformer. All the reactors were either already shut down or automatically switched off by the quake. The blaze was reported quelled by early afternoon, and the power company announced there was no damage to the reactor and no release of radioactivity.

But in the evening, the company released a statement revealing the leak of radioactive water, saying it had taken all day to confirm details of the accident. But the delay raised suspicions among environmentalists, who oppose the government's plan to build more reactors.

"The leak itself doesn't sound significant as of yet, but the fact that it went unreported is a concern," said Michael Mariotte at the Nuclear Information and Resource Service, a Maryland-based networking center for environmental activists. "When a company begins by denying a problem, it makes you wonder if there's another shoe to drop."



"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 04:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Link

About 315 gallons of water apparently spilled from a tank at one of the plant's seven reactors and entered a pipe that flushed it into the sea, said Jun Oshima, an executive at Tokyo Electric Power Co.

Officials said there was no "significant change" in the seawater near the plant, which is about 160 miles northwest of Tokyo. "The radioactivity is one-billionth of the legal limit," Oshima said of the leaked water.

The second paragraph is a bit ominous.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 04:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"No significant change"?

so no leak larger than usual then?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 08:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a leak at the Rokkasho reprocessing plant. Different.

Poemless is freaking out about a leak at the Kashiwazaki nuclear power plant. Probably cooling water with some tritium.

Now, why there is at all an effluent pipe in the plant going to the sea, that's an interesting question. Japanese design, I guess. And contrary to cars or trains, "Japanese design" is not a compliment for nuclear facilities.

by Francois in Paris on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 04:37:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably cooling water with some tritium.

Ah, so it is radioactive water.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 04:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See my comment below about tritium.

If there is other stuff in that water, like FPs or actinides from a fuel cladding failure, it could be more concerning.

by Francois in Paris on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 05:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean literally radioactive water, as opposed to water carrying sludge.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:01:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, in that case, the water itself carries the tritium. HTO instead of H2O.
by Francois in Paris on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 01:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's once.

Did you see the Chicago Tribune article about the daily releases of 4000+ pounds of ammonia and assorted sludge from the BP refinery in Whiting out into Lake Michigan?

Apparently the Indiana Department of Environmental Management ok'd this.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 04:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, we get everyone's crap.  Toxic waste?  E-coli?  Invasive species?  Naval war games?  Come on down.  

I recently went swimming in the lake.  I expect to wake up with gills soon.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 04:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who was it that wanted to drill for oil in the lake?

Anyways.  

I've recently received an invitation for a dinner with labor bloggers at YearlyKos.  Just one problem, I'm not going to YearlyKos.

Since I'm so close though, I'm interested to see if it's going to be at the convention center or not.  If I don't have to register for Yearlykos to go, I just might drive the 2 1/2 hours to get there.  

I'm trying to decide whether or not to go for a PhD and if so where and in what.  

I hate making decisions, I get neurotic about these things.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 04:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I utterly regret doing my PhD, although that may not be my opinion when I finally finish and can shout about having a doctorate.

I have spent most of it thinking "whyyyyyy?".

Well there is a good place to start, why do you want to do one?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 05:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I enjoyed studying for my PhD, but when I got it I had no inclination to shout about it from rooftops.

If you won't enjoy the study for the study's sake there are better things to do with your time.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 05:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have enjoyed my PhD at various points, when things seem to have worked or made sense finally.  It doesn't do that very often though and there's so little motivation to get the thesis written.  Even knowing I can call myself a Dr. isn't enough to motivate me, but I will be glad of it when I can say that.

I think I will want to shout about it too, especially in the direction of people who spent years putting me down, telling me I was stupid, refusing to teach me, chucking me out of their classes and so on.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 02:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, it's not the PhD, it's the thesis writing you're complaining about.

That explains it ;-)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 02:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thesis writing is jumping hoops for someone else: research is fun, thesis writing isn't.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:27:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's a matter of whether or not I want to actually teach also.  I'm definitely interested in the material, but sometimes it gets a little old.

BTW, have you seen PhD comics one of my friends has it on his Facebook page.  Some of them are quite good.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:25:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it's dinner you probably don't need to register.  I think it is only "official" things you have to register for.  What night is it?  

I didn't know you were a "labor blogger"...  

Where are you?  Are you in South Bend?  You can take the Metra from there straight to McCormicK Center...  You should come...  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 05:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've also been invited to a dinner of the sort (on the 3rd, I think) by a labor organsation. Presumably they want to talk to those bloggers they have identified as writing on labor issues (even if occasionally) on dKos.

The rarity of that topic (like that of poverty and inequality), and the lack of concern of kossack for union issues is one of the great mysteries of that site.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 03:37:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you get an email from Tasini?  That's who mine came from.

Went into my "Manfrommiddletown" box which I only check maybe once a week if I'm not expecting mail.

I need to just give up on that, and start giving out my "real" email to people I might be in contact with.  That involves a certain loss of anonymity though, and I've got this firewall between my offline world and what I do here.

Back to this dinner, I take it both an an honor, that I was among those who they identified for this, and a disappointment that we are such a small group.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:19:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could set up an anonymous account which forwards mail to your main account. That way you don't miss messages. I don't know is lycos email can do this. I know gmail does.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I take it both an an honor, that I was among those who they identified for this, and a disappointment that we are such a small group.

I guess I feel the same; plus a bit worried that someone like me who is not really qualified to write about the topic, but only broaches indirectly via macroeconomic considerations, is seen as an important writer on the subject. I feel like a fraud.

I have read recently an article written after the first YK about how Labor had taken bloggers seriously, supported YK (including with money and a real presence at the conference) but the kossacks did not really reciprocate

Here it is:


What Was Missing At YearlyKos (In These Times)

By Christopher Hayes

YearlyKos made it clear that the netroots is a vanguard--a smart, savvy, compassionate and courageous vanguard, but a vanguard nonetheless. There's nothing wrong with vanguards, but they do not a majority make.

(...)

But Lou possessed something missing from the conference, namely--not to put too fine a point on it--a critique of capitalism. In his union days, Lou said, he'd urged his local officers to use some of the union's pension and strike funds to actually buy part of the company. "That's real unionism," he said. "We've never tried that here in the United States. Now they'll tell you that's Marxism, but that's just because the American people have been brainwashed into thinking that Capital is more important than Labor. But it's Labor that creates all wealth!"

You didn't hear talk like that at Yearly Kos. Nothing even close. The panel on "Labor and Power" drew a meager crowd of 40 people, tops. Next door, the "blogosphere expert" panel was packed. UNITE HERE's political director Chris Chafe seemed dismayed. "If we don't have this room filled to capacity at the next YearlyKos convention then we're all going to lose," he said.

In a post on DailyKos after the convention, labor expert Nathan Newman wrote, "The labor movement actually took YearlyKos very seriously, contributing money to help subsidize costs and sending top leaders to attend the sessions. ... I know that the labor leaders were a bit frustrated that their interest in the blogosphere was not reciprocated."




In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:29:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I got the same feeling about labor support for Yearlykos.

And to be honest, I feel in many ways that DailyKos just isn't the place to formulate a valid ideology for the Left.  To return to my beloved Weberian categories.  It is concerned primarly with the formal,  which is to say the procedural matters of gettings Democrats elected, rather than the substantive, which is to say what the hell is is that we are fighting for.

I had (and have diminshed) hopes for Open Left a community site put together by MyDD's Chris Bowers and Matt Stoller.  They were explicit that they wanted to focus beyond the narrow lense of the Democratic Party into the politics of the Left.  The "netroots" has been too narrowly focused on the formal, while ignoring the substantive.

Jerome, you're not a fraud, or no more so than I.  I still feel like a one eyed man leading the blind when it comes to writing on Labor history, and contemporary labor issues.  And more so, I write a lot about ineqaulity, which is different than poverty, and a lot more likely to piss people off.

Most Kossacks don't know Pareto optimality formally, but the concept is central to their understanding of the world. And the idea that in theoretical terms, their are deeper social forces than they mamiximization of utility, and more meaningfully that increased inequality is still harmful in the context of reduced poverty is beyond them.

It's easy to run a campaign against poverty, but running a campaign against inequality?

I only hope that there's a man who can do that.

And there's only one running for president that I think just might try.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:53:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And to be honest, I feel in many ways that DailyKos just isn't the place to formulate a valid ideology for the Left.

No, but it is a place to promulgate  such an ideology.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:56:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you know what happens to missionaries who dare to preach the Gospel to the heathen tribes?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<shrug>

Luckily virtual flames are less final than physical ones.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:59:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless someone tries to do to you what they did to Soj, or Armando (aka Big Tent Democrat.)

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 11:59:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and the above as a diary?

Please?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 11:08:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, from what I can gather, there is not a lot of support for unions at Kos.  We can debate why, but I do think class representation is skewed at that site...  Still, I've never understood...

Alternatively, DFA and local Chicago grassroots groups have a long history of working with labor organizations like SEIU.  Mind you, in the US, labor organizations are not homogenous, and are rarely socially progressive...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read this.

Then maybe you'll understand why I think that the affection for the SEIU from the netroots over traditional industrial unions is telling.  And for precisely the reason you mention.  Skewed class representation.

Also, you realize that the UAW funded the civil rights movemement, and that Martin Luther King was in Memphis to support striking city sanitary workers, right?

That's socially progressive enough for me.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am really talking about contemporary unions.  I am in the Teamsters and they are not progressive enough for me.  I won't even get involved in my union...

You can say what you want about SEIU, but all I know is that show up.  They show up for our events, our candidates, etc.  They work with us on progressive issues.  Instead of working with the corrupt Daley administration to get bids.  I mean, we are talking about the difference between progressive activists and organized crime.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not all Teamster's locals are corrupt, and I don't think that all are involved in organized crime.

The problem with the SEIU, is that they have this record of dropping in college educated organizers into leadership positions after ousting the elected leadership.  And at in California, there's a whole paper trail of them signing contracts that don't allow strikes, or for healthcare workers to report medical mistreatment to the authorities.

About the SEIU, I'm trying to say that they have a poor record on union democracy, which is to say raising leadership from the ranks.  The Teamsters have the same problem with the leadership at the national meddling in the affairs of the locals.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:33:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I can understand why you were invited to that dinner!  LOL.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 12:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the lack of concern of kossack for union issues is one of the great mysteries of that site.

See (for example) Helen's occasional rants here against unions in order to understand. It may go along with the disdain for Marx and the use of "Marxist" as a pejorative - which I recently forgot on BT recently to my great confusion.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on Colman, don't you know that class doesn't exist in America?

The whole Marxist thing is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

One of the pecularities of the United States in the context of the industrialized world is that we have this (asinine) belief that class is no inherited and that through hard work all can own a million dollar mansion, etc, etc....

The irony again (it's that time in the morning, so everything is ironic) is that even though the concept of inherited class as a fundamental determinant of personal success or failure,  I.e. your father works in a factory, therefore so will you. (I was actually told this while in high school, as part of an explanation for why a teacher assumed I had cheated when she graded a paper of mine that she though I had plagarized.  Class is just as real as race in America, and far more blatant in the way it is used to discriminate, alas that's a whole other conversation.)

The irony again is that even though Americans don't acknowledge the existence of inherited class, that's the reality of our society. (Follow the link, it's a pdf of a report that shatters any illusion that America is a classless society.) Note the difference between the graphic on pg. 2 illustrating the American belief in social mobility, and the first graph one pg. 5 showing that in fact Europeans on whole (God bless the UK for breaking the rule) are far, far more socially mobile than Americans.  

I appreciate this section of the report:

relative mobility can occur regardless of what is happening to the society as a whole. Individuals can change their position relative to others, moving up or down within the ranks as one would expect in a true meritocracy. To illustrate the importance of relative mobility, consider three hypothetical societies with identical distributions of wealthy, poor, and middle-class citizens:

* The meritocratic society. Those who work the
hardest and have the greatest talent, regardless of
class, gender, race, or other characteristics, have the
highest income.

* The "fortune cookie" society. Where one ends
up bears no relation to talent or energy, and is purely
a matter of luck.

* The class-stratified society. Family background is
all-important -- children end up in the same relative
position as their parents. Mobility between classes is
little to nonexistent.

Americans sincerely believe that we live in a meritocratic society, where individuals get what they had coming.  Therefore, if you're 35 and trapped in working a job where you don't earn enough to support your family, it's clearly your fault.  Poverty, thus becomes a sign of moral failure.  (The complex interrelationship between religion and economics, thus become more important. And you have what are basically large businesses in these evangelical churches that preach a prosperity gospel.  God does good things for those who are faithful, so it you praise Jesus, and pass the collection plate, you too might one day be a rich man.)

Class is much more than income, it's about status in society. And the reduction of class to a matter of income in the United States is reflective to just how pervasive the market ethic is.  I'm fundamentally a believer in what Bordieu had to say about cultural capital.  Status comes in many forms.  It's something that even the most ardent neo-liberal will recognize.  Martin Wolf was in the FT about a month back saying that by allowing elites in industrialized countries from seeking distinction in terms of how much money they earn relative to "common" workers, we diffuse the tendency to seek distinction through cultural concerns that  may lead to ethnic conflict or war.....

Now he seemed to miss the flipside of this, which is that it seems entirely plausible that when the great masses of a nation are told that they are equal to all others but economic realities conflict with this, they might seek out distinction through religion and culture.  Hence, the United States, and the concurrent growth of inequality and relgious fundamentalism.

It's the "I may be poor, but at least I'm not a ......" (Insert your favorited racial or relgious epithet.)  Remeber that Americans are quite willing to question the status of the rich based upon moral matters.  (Hence the odd fascination with the latest antics of Paris Hilton.) It confirms in a sense that although Paris Hilton is wealthy without having worked for it, at least we know that when she dies (drug overdose anyone?) she will burn in hell.  Therefore, although she is rich in material terms, and I poor, in matters of status, I am wealth because I am morally superior to that blonde .....

I think I've made my point.  And you see, once you get to the bottom of it, it demolished alot of the sacred cows in Anglo-American popular discourse.  

I've got to stop with the caffeine in the morning, it's clearly having an effect.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've got to stop with the caffeine in the morning, it's clearly having an effect.

Tea or coffee? If it encourages you to write like that we'll ship some over.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually forgot the point I started with.

Which was that the second stereotype used against labor in the United States, is that they are in some way tainted by organized crime.

Both steretypes have some basis in truth, with the old Teamsters and East Coast Longshoreman (circa 1950) having a variety of connections to the Mafia.  And the West Coast Longshoreman having been laced through throughly with Communist sympathizers.  It didn't really help that Walther Reuther, one of the greats of the UAW (Autoworkers) spent 2 years in Gorkii working at an autoplant with his brother in the 1930's.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:19:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I forgot this:

I was actually told this while in high school, as part of an explanation for why a teacher assumed I had cheated when she graded a paper of mine that she though I had plagarized

<goggle>

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:26:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is front page material.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:22:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll do it as a blockquote.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:24:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It should be diaried on Daily Kos.

Or maybe not. As it won't help get Democrats elected, it would just be concern trolling.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll put together something, and post here today. (Probably just a direct lifting from here.

I want to  flesh it out a little thouhg for Daily Kos.

I'm certain that there will be a lot of defending it from misperceptions though.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't know you were a "labor blogger"...
 

Which is funny cause nether did I.  I am happy to think I belong to a small group of bloggers who write on labor and inequality issues. I think it's an informal thing, I'm just trying to think this through.  I hate driving in big cities, and Chicago is friggin scary.  When you have restaurants built on overpasses on the highway you know that you're in a city that is a little too crazy for cars.

I'm actually in West Lafayette for grad school.  Ironically, one of the things I've been thinking about trying to do my PhD in is industrial and labor relations.  Which is what sort of ties this all together.


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 09:13:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I guess you are then, if you write about it.  As oppsed to being a blogger who belongs to a union but does not write about it (like myself...)

Chicago isn't scary.  And there is no need to drive into the city.  And I've never been to a restaurant on an overpass.  :)  In fact, the only one I have ever seen was on an interstate, not really in the city...  

Anyway, if you do decide to come, enjoy yourself in Chicago.  It really is a great town.  Plus you can meet Jerome.  Which might be more than I'm going to be able to do!

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 11:04:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am at a stage in my life where I again think about doing a PHD. Either about unapologetic apologetics. which would be the fun one - doing three years of research and just reading, reading, reading, reading, with no concern.

Or I do something sensible something, that might make me more attractive for a potential employer, something in Information Management and Data access - but then, am I not already to academic for this, would I not be to expensive for anyone?

So, money or interest?

by PeWi on Mon Jul 16th, 2007 at 07:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case, it's probably no biggie.

If it's cooling water with tritium radioactivity, the limits are very high for drinking water - 740 Bq/l in the US, 1,000 Bq/l WHO. Tritium is a very weak beta emitter (5.7 keV beta, 18.6 keV total)