Iran: the media is still delusional and complicit

by Jerome a Paris
Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 10:40:49 AM EST

The Economist has its front page and a full 25-page report on Iran this week, and it's not pretty.

Update - I forgot the link to their main editorial which I'm quoting here

It is vital to understand that this [Iran with the nuclear bomb] is not a nightmare dreamt up by editorial writers. After the false intelligence that led America into Iraq, and the mayhem that followed, it may seem hard to believe that America or Israel are pondering an attack on a much bigger Muslim country. But they are—and they are not mad.

For as long as the so-called "serious" media will encourage the neocons in their delusional, and deadly, policy adventures, the probability of a catastrophic war of aggression on Iran will remain a reality.

Neo-cons are still given ample space in editorial pages to spew their hate-filled dreams of domination of the world; and their ideas are still given ample, and most often supportive, consideration by the self-appointed pundits that decide what is "reasonable" in policy land. As long as this lasts, we are not safe. The neo-cons themselves may be largely discredited, but as long as the media keeps on parroting their ideas, the problem will remain. That editorial by the Economist - supposedly the voice of the serious power-brokers and money makers in London (a shortcut for Europe as seen from America) - is a case in point.

Update: the foreign editor of the Economist responds in the comments


“THE Iranian regime is basically a messianic apocalyptic cult.” So says Israel's once and perhaps future prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu. If he is right the world is teetering on the edge of a terrifying crisis.

Because, of course, Israel's most prominent extreme-right leader (remember, this is a guy to the right of Ariel Sharon) is the most objective analyst of the Iranian regime and his extremist opinion should be the one that shapes this whole editorial, and thus what passes for "reasonable" conventional wisdom amongst the Anglo-American power classes.

The Economist, as a European magazine with an explicit pro-free market bias and a reputation for excellent, irreverent writing providing both facts and opinion that used to be deserved, and a mostly American readership these days, is the ultimate place to identify what passes for that conventional wisdom which will shape debate and policy making in Washington and Brussels (headquarters of NATO).

So it is absolutely relevant to note that their first words are those of Netanyahu - it gives them weight and significance much beyond Israel.

The upshot, say Israel and some American experts, is that Iran may have a bomb by the end of 2009. Mohammed ElBaradei, the IAEA's director-general, is more cautious. But even he says that if Iran really wants a bomb it could now build one within three to eight years.

What Iran is doing at Natanz is entirely illegal.

That the Bush administration feels no scruples using the argument of illegallity towards another country after having illegally invaded a country (remember: no UN resolution for the Iraqi invasion), continuing to occupy it and presiding over the worst refugee crisis in 50 years and an ever growing death toll is one thing. We know they have no shame and no restraint. That any publication that deems itself influential can repeat the same self-serving and hypocritical arguments with a straight face today only shows that the are part of the same problem: power corrupted and run amok.

So what next? This story could have at least three unhappy endings. In one, Iran ends up with nuclear weapons, bringing new instability and a hair-trigger face-off with nuclear Israel into one of the world's least-safe neighbourhoods. In another, America or Israel take pre-emptive military action and manage to stop it, even though such an attack would almost certainly have very dangerous consequences of its own. In the third ending, Iran is attacked, and enraged, and retaliates—and still ends up with a bomb anyway.

Implicit in all this (except that the notion was given a not-so-discreet boost via Netanyahu's initial screech) is that Iran having the nuclear bomb will bring instability in the region. No actual argument is given to justify it, except an appeal to fear, and to the unconscious image of Iran-as-the-bogeyman, the evil regime that dared get rid of friend-of-America-Shah-Pavlavi and keep US diplomats prisoner for many months. Any country that dared humiliate Americans and forfeit its privileged position as large vassal can only be evil. Full stop.

That it is actually a country more open to Western investment in the oil sector than Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, and a reliable exporter, is never deemed worthy of a mention.

That it had good reason to be unhappy with US interference in its politics, starting with the CIA-run coup to get rid of its democratically elected leader in 1953, is never mentioned.

That the situation between India and Pakistan (another "least-safe neighbourhoods" of the world) is actually more stable since both countries are in their very own nuclear "hair trigger face-off" is conveniently forgotten.

That it has trouble coping with domestic oil demand, and is aware that its oil resource may run out, and is looking for alternative energy sources, is not even given consideration.

That it is the most democratic and open country in the region, with complex politics and an even more complex social evolution is ignored.

No, it's a "messianic apocalyptic cult." Hey, it's easier to generate hate and fear that way.

So... let's forget that the current regime in Washington has zero credibility in matters of war, foreign affairs, intelligence or international stability, and stick to their line.

The succinct answer of Senator John McCain is that although attacking Iran would be bad, an Iran with nuclear weapons would be worse. He is not alone: most of America's presidential candidates would consider military force.

Again, let's quote the most extreme position as it if were representative of anything. A man still arguing that the occupation of Iraq should be continued, whose electoral campaign is plummeting precisely because of that delusional (oops, sorry, "principled") stand, a darling of the media since he was labelled, on a earlier whim of that same media, a "straight-talking" "maverick" despite his almost perfect hard conservative record, he is more representative of that media's follies than of any relevant sane opinion on Iran. A perfect match for that article, of course.

So, attack?

Even if it delayed or stopped Iran's nuclear programme, it would knock new holes in America's relations with the Muslim world. And if only for the sake of their domestic political survival, Iran's leaders would almost certainly hit back. Iran could fire hundreds of missiles at Israel, attack American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, organise terrorist attacks in the West or choke off tanker traffic through the Strait of Hormuz, the world's oil windpipe. How could any Western leader in his right mind risk initiating such a sequence of events?

Iran's leadership would only defend its country to ensure their "domestic political survival". How evil of them. And choking off tanker traffic in the Gulf is just a minor consequence that the West could survive, of course.

How could any newspaper editor in his right mind risk writing such tripe?

One thing is certain: the Economist's editors and journalists will have blood on their hands if Iran is attacked, and I hope to be around to remind them if that happens.

Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
Many seem willing to hold America's coat while they attack. "You go get 'em boy, we got you covered."

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 10:58:49 AM EST
I don't see the Economist suggesting that the U.K. take out Iran. Hell, they're a lot closer to Iran's missiles than the U.S. is.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:03:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, when should we expect the fireworks to begin? Within one Friedman?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:04:48 AM EST
has slowly become more critical of the Bush administration (too little, too late all along, but they have acknowledged the reality of the Iraq fuckup) without ever getting rid of the "it comes from the US so it must be good" mindset. Invading Iraq was a good idea gone bad (or implemented poorly). Attacking Iran is a similarly good idea, because of where it comes from, irrespective or the track record of the recent years, the facts on the ground or the inevitable consequences of such an action.

the scariest is that they will list all the reasons why it's a bad idea, but still come to the conclusion that it must be done. "Just because we say so" is pretty much the only argument they have.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:05:27 AM EST
the scariest is that they will list all the reasons why it's a bad idea, but still come to the conclusion that it must be done

They do that on economic policy which is their supposed area of expertise, so why be surprised that they do it on geopolitics?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:27:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just today, the Heritage Foundation (a conservative think-tank) published a study claiming that the US could bomb Iran without catastrophic consequences: If Iran Provokes an Energy Crisis: Modeling the Problem in a War Game  This "study" claims that the US Navy could re-open the straights of Hormuz within a matter of days or weeks, and that there wouldn't be any collateral damage to the oil facilities of US allies.

Interestingly, the Oil and Gas Journal editorialized that a US air raid on Iranian sites would be one of the worst possible options.  (See their July 9th issue, p. 17.)  They say "Devastation would be impossible to confine to narrowly targeted air strikes.  Tehran would retaliate with terrorist attacks, producing a body-count contest nobedy wants.  Oil prices would zoom."

by corncam on Thu Jul 26th, 2007 at 04:42:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/23/1178/62806

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:10:32 AM EST
The problem is, if you're steeped in the neo-con "political will" theory, then you can't negotiate with anyone, because that might involve "humiliating compromise." The idea that a small compromise on who blinks first about negotiations is so important as to make war preferable sounds bizarre, but seems to be what they believe.

As a result, all they can do is threaten. Since they don't (objectively) look like strong threats (US public don't seem fond of more war at this moment and all those troops in Iraq are very vulnerable if Iran is attacked) the threats are unlikely to go anywhere.

Trouble is, if the threats don't go anywhere, are The Economist and Cheney crazy enough to push for war anyway? The jury is out...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:16:01 AM EST
What do you mean The Jury is Out?

Supposedly The Economist represents the moneyed interests who supposedly hold Cheney's leash and would yank on it it he got out of hand so supposedly there will be no war on Iran. But since The Economist doesn't seem to be yanking the leash but actually encouraging Cheney's barking, one has to wonder...

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I've been known to predict an attack on Iran before and I was wrong, so it may well be that now I feel like it won't happen, I'll be wrong again.

Still, there was an optimum political moment for attacking Iran and that has passed. It may be that Cheney and Bush, not running for re-election will throw aside all popularity concerns, but I have the feeling that if they were that ruthless and efficiently focused on their goals, Iran would already have been attacked by now...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:28:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I thought the attack would have been last year's October Surprise, too.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
one is that they are still pushing for it - that's undoubtedly happening, and the other one is whether it will happen - the jury is still out, obviously. Thankfully, there are obstacle, not the least that the US Army would be unlikely to go along (the Air Force is an open question though), and that the Chinese have probably warned of dire consequences.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:38:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No actual argument is given to justify it, except an appeal to fear, and to the unconscious image of Iran-as-the-bogeyman, the evil regime that dared get rid of friend-of-America-Shah-Pavlavi and keep US diplomats prisoner for many months. Any country that dared humiliate Americans and forfeit its privileged position as large vassal can only be evil. Full stop.

That it is actually a country more open to Western investment in the oil sector than Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, and a reliable exporter, is never deemed worthy of a mention.

That it had good reason to be unhappy with US interference in its politics, starting with the CIA-run coup to get rid of its democratically elected leader in 1953, is never mentioned.

That the situation between India and Pakistan (another "least-safe neighbourhoods" of the world) is actually more stable since both countries are in their very own nuclear "hair trigger face-off" is conveniently forgotten.

That it has trouble coping with domestic oil demand, and is aware that its oil resource may run out, and is looking for alternative energy sources, is not even given consideration.

That it is the most democratic and open country in the region, with complex politics and an even more complex social evolution is ignored.

Just now there is a diary by pelcan which uses Iran-as-the-bogeyman rhetoric to attach the US Christian right:
Now look at the state of Islam in countries like Iran, with its dwindling freedoms. As a bumper sticker reads: Want a country with church and state? Move to Iran.
Saudi Arabia can't be used to the same effect, despite being a much nastier regime than Iran on pretty much all counts, because Saudi Arabia is our friendly Islamic Theocracy.

<sigh>

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:21:06 AM EST
Can I be the one to suggest that the fact that such a force majeure article is being written is because the argument in Washington is still ongoing ?

Cheney has no interest in broad public opinion and if he could bomb Tehran tomorrow morning, he would and screw what anyone thinks. The fact that he has to call in a favour from the Economist suggests that he has to build a coalition because there are significant elements within the White house who are influential enough to stay Bush's hand.

This ain't over.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:52:29 AM EST
I think you've go it about right.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:58:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've already said that Cheney will swing this if he can. Meaning, he needs to reduce opposition within the administration, and manipulate public opinion - the latter being a lever he can use to further the former.

Producing a significant shift of opinion will take a Gulf of Tonkin-sized event, but that's not the kind of thing that would scare Cheney if he can get it under way. Meanwhile, the dismal sold-out rag that is The Economist is a useful vehicle for spreading fear among the mindless who still believe it's a quality, objective publication.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 12:16:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A Gulf-of-Tonkin event would be used not (just) to sway public opinion but to demand NATO assistance in the retaliation under article 5.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 12:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if he can get it under way

Since Cheney's worldview is bad for business, he's down to near zero friends. Even as vice president, it won't be easy, and a freshly pissed off American public still won't be interested in sending their kids off to die in a war or interested in sending even more tax dollars to the military.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 01:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it may seem hard to believe that America or Israel are pondering an attack on a much bigger Muslim country. But they are--and they are not mad.

No, they're not mad, they're batshit insane.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:58:05 AM EST
"THE Iranian regime is basically a messianic apocalyptic cult." So says Israel's once and perhaps future prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu.

Nutandyahoo?  There's a creditable source.  :rolleyes:

The decision making process of the Bush administration is delusional.  Bush has proclaimed he makes decisions based on Principles.; the Principles of a coke-head and drunk.  Cheney is a typical Social Dominant who only accepts new information when it agrees with his unalterable skewed vision of the world.  Rice is a dingbat.  The Democratic leadership are seemingly terrified by the Bush administration.  The Republicans are a bunch of enablers.  

There's no way the US Army can invade or attack Iran and fulfill the proposed goal of destroying the Iranian nuclear facilities.  That leaves the US Air Force as the military means.  In my view, the Bombs-Away! boys are as delusional in their Information/Decision Processing as the Bush administration.

And, for heaven's sake, why can't these people understand the more they saber-rattle the greater the impetus given to the Iranians to build a nuclear weapon force?

The 50 megaton question is, "What was the real reason for Kissinger's recent trip to Russia?"  Was it for the stated reasons or was it to sound-out Russia about an attack on Iran?  If the latter, what was the Russian response?  

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 12:11:54 PM EST
You wouldn't know from reading Jerome a Paris's cut-and-paste job that The Economist's article argues strongly AGAINST any military attack on Iran; or that it CRITICISES Netanyahu's characterisation of Iran as a messianic cult; or that the accompanying special report does INDEED mention the CIA's 1953 coup, the installation of the shah, Iran's complex democratic politics, the general support of Iranians for the legitimacy of their government and so on and so forth. How funny to be called    "delusional and complicit" by someone who can't even summarise a 15 (not 25) page argument competently.

Peter David
by Peter David on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 12:11:59 PM EST
Jerome omitted to link to The Economist's leading article.

The first third of the article says

"THE Iranian regime is basically a messianic apocalyptic cult." ...

While the world has been distracted by Iraq, Afghanistan and much else, Iran has been moving relentlessly closer to the point where it could build an atomic bomb. ...

According to the International Atomic Energy Agency, the UN's nuclear watchdog, Iran could have 3,000 centrifuges hooked up by the end of this month. ...

Then comes a middle third titled Choose your unhappy ending
What Iran is doing at Natanz is entirely illegal. ...

So what next? This story could have at least three unhappy endings. In one, Iran ends up with nuclear weapons, bringing new instability and a hair-trigger face-off with nuclear Israel into one of the world's least-safe neighbourhoods. In another, America or Israel take pre-emptive military action and manage to stop it, even though such an attack would almost certainly have very dangerous consequences of its own. In the third ending, Iran is attacked, and enraged, and retaliates--and still ends up with a bomb anyway.

It is vital to understand that this third finale is not a nightmare dreamt up by editorial writers. ...

Yet such an attack would nonetheless be a huge gamble. ...

The succinct answer of Senator John McCain is that although attacking Iran would be bad, an Iran with nuclear weapons would be worse. ...

And then there's a third part entitled Cult or calculator?, with a hint on nuance and a link to the special report:
If Iran really is no more than the "messianic cult" of Mr Netanyahu's imagination, it would be worth running almost any risk to stop it acquiring nuclear weapons. But as our special report argues, Iran is not that easy to read.

Iran is a self-proclaimed theocracy. Yet it has conducted foreign relations since the revolution of 1979 in a way that seems perfectly rational even if it is not pleasant. ...

Since Israel has memories of a real Holocaust, it may not set much store by that "probably". This newspaper continues to believe that even for Israel containment of a nuclear Iran would be less awful than a risky pre-emptive attack that would probably cause mayhem, strengthen the regime and merely delay the day Iran gets a bomb. ...

Is there a way to avoid all of the unhappy endings by finding a peaceful way to stop Iran going nuclear? ...

Iran is obstinate, paranoid and ambitious. But it is also vulnerable. A young population with no memory of the revolution is desperate for jobs its leaders have failed to provide. Sanctions that cut off equipment for its decrepit oilfields or struck hard at the financial interests of the regime and its protectors in the Revolutionary Guards would have an immediate impact on its own assessment of the cost of its nuclear programme. That on its own is unlikely to change the regime's mind. If at the same time Iran was offered a dignified ladder to climb down--above all a credible promise of an historic reconciliation with the United States--the troubled leadership of a tired revolution might just grab it. But time is short.



Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 12:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As you describe yourself as the foreign editor of the Economist in your profile, I'd like to thank you for joining thedebate here, and to answer carefully.

I did not summarise your full report, I only commented on your leader. Do you deny that the quote I put at the top of this piece is the Economist's considered opinion? That you wrote that America and Israel are "not mad" to consider an attack on Iran?


The Economist's article argues strongly AGAINST any military attack on Iran

Well, calling people that argue for such an attack "not mad" is not a good start if your intention was to argue "strongly" against military attack.

It is true that you write near the end of your leader that "this newspaper continues to believe that even for Israel containment of a nuclear Iran would be less awful than a risky pre-emptive attack that would probably cause mayhem, strengthen the regime and merely delay the day Iran gets a bomb", but as it is accompanied by a very mixed bag of arguments (Iran can "probably" be deterred, but "probably" is not good enough for Holocaust-remembering Israel, it has a "rational" policy, but it could become more "aggressive"), that does not sound like a "strong" argument against what has been argued with force for the first half of your leader.

You can have it both ways. You can't have bellicose intros and arguments and sound like you're supporting US policies re Iran and say that what you really mean is what's buried in paragraph 11 of your main article on the topic. That's what you did with the Iraqi war.

You have a responsibility. You have a strong influence on what the "collective wisdom" of the West is, for whathever definition of the West you care to use, and you're still using your loudspeaker to say that invading and occupying Iraq was a good idea, even if poorly implemented, and to give credence to what the same discredited crowd is saying about Iran.

Because that's what you're doing - giving your credibility, as it stands, to the crowd in the White House that brought us Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, renditions and 4 million Iraqi refugees.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 12:52:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you mean "can't have it both ways."

Incidentally, Mr David, I didn't buy an Economist style guide in a while, have they completely deprecated the "inverted pyramid" now?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 01:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Typically taking the less popular (on ET) view, I found The Economist article to quite sensible, even pragmatic.  And, this was my perception before reading the full version after seeing Migeru's link. The upshot is that in my view Jerome's summary is accurate and reasonably complete; I just don't agree with his conclusions about the article's tone as encouraging of action against Iran.

The article's last paragraph, in fact, can be seen as encouraging of diplomacy, as well as sanctions, and it offers a quality alternative to armed action, albeit one that I don't necessarily agree with.

Iran is obstinate, paranoid and ambitious. But it is also vulnerable. A young population with no memory of the revolution is desperate for jobs its leaders have failed to provide. Sanctions that cut off equipment for its decrepit oilfields or struck hard at the financial interests of the regime and its protectors in the Revolutionary Guards would have an immediate impact on its own assessment of the cost of its nuclear programme. That on its own is unlikely to change the regime's mind. If at the same time Iran was offered a dignified ladder to climb down--above all a credible promise of an historic reconciliation with the United States--the troubled leadership of a tired revolution might just grab it. But time is short.

I don't see a nuclear armed Iran as any worse than a nuclear Pakistan, for instance.  While Pakistan is in the "Western camp" at present, its situation as such is precarious at best.  So, I don't see the failure of diplomacy or sanctions as requiring an armed response to Iran's ambitions.  I do, by the way, believe that Iran will not stop at development of a peaceful nuclear capability and fully intends to develop weapons. To what end, no one can be certain, but it is quite possible that it will do so for leverage against Israel and the US.  But no one wins in a nuclear war and Iran is unlikely to risk one over ideology.  

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 02:13:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do, by the way, believe that Iran will not stop at development of a peaceful nuclear capability and fully intends to develop weapons.

Is a belief enough to make a consideration of armed preventive war not mad?

To what end, no one can be certain, but it is quite possible that it will do so for leverage against Israel and the US.  But no one wins in a nuclear war

Have you considered deterrence? The exact same reason most nuclear states insist on their arsenal?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 04:32:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I would characterize persons who would seriously consider going to war over Iran's nuclear ambitions as exceptionally foolish or maybe strongly motivated by something other than what most sane people would consider reasonable cause. But I wouldn't necessarily characterize them as mad. Look at the Iraq war.  Was it the result of ignorance coupled with greed, foolish misadventure, revenge, insanity, misplaced concerns over national security, or a combination of these things?  I haven't quite made up my mind, as some have here, but I lean these days towards a combination of these things that were present in varying degrees in those who argued for war.

I guess you could say that "leverage" includes deterrence, although it will be a long long time before Iran's capabilities would be seen as constituting a credible deterrence.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 11:03:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know things are different in the blogosphere but I don't think it's necessary to describe people as "mad" in order to disagree with them. There is indeed a rational case for pre-emption but we don't buy it.

As you now admit, our editorial says absolutely plainly that The Economist is against a military attack on Iran.  But we also believe that for Iran to go nuclear would make the Middle East less safe, not least because (a) it has threatened Israel's destruction and (b) a possible future prime minister of nuclear-armed Israel believes Iran to be a messianic cult. That strikes me as scary scenario, and I'm surprised by the number of discussants here who seem relaxed about it.

What you call a "bellicose intro" is in fact a statement of unpleasant facts about the current situation. You need to take them on board, not shoot the "delusional and complicit" messenger.

Peter David

by Peter David on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 02:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, the inverted pyramid has indeed been deprecated?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 03:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bringing in Israel's perceptions (via that of a possible leader) is indeed a relevant point; I must admit that I did not catch it in your leader. I don't deny that you put it there, just that I missed it myself.

I have indeed argued in other threads that a nuclear-armed Iran would not necessarily be a bad thing; I know that this is not a widely shared opinion, I understand some of the arguments against it (more countries joining the "fun"), and I can readily believe that Israelis are not too keen to test that hypothesis.

So I can understand the case for trying to keep Iran non-nuclear. What I failed to see in your article is the recognition that the biggest problem today in the region is not Iran, it's the occupation of Iraq, and the fact that the crowd that cooked up that grand triumph of wishful thinking over reality is still in power, mostly unchecked. It's not Iran that has brought about the deaths of several hundred thousand people in the Middle East, and the displacement of several million more. It's not Iran that has legitimized torture, pre-emptive attacks and open contempt for the UN. Calling those in the Bush administration that advocate for an attack on Iran "not mad", as you did, given the context, is equivalent to giving them a blank check, whether you like it or not.

And that's irresponsible.

The fact that, again, you state a belated preference, in paragraph 11, for no invasion, is not quite enough. Your editorial does not "say plainly" that you are against a military attack. It says so discreetly, mildly, barely, after several paragraphs of enthusiastic support for the idea of an attack. You are parsing your words more than I am to say that this editorial is against a military attack.

As to Iran, this is a topic we follow quite closely, as the following links (all from last year) show:

The Iranian scenario that keeps me up at night by STA
Countdown to Iran War: New Attack Plans and Euro Peace Play by goinsouth
Who Will Stop World War III? by goinsouth
What it takes to attack Iran by STA
For Israel, it's starting to feel like it's 1938 again by wchurchill
Firing the Foreign Secretary: On to Iran? by smintheus
Notes on the Iranian Government by Colman
No wiping off maps by Colman
Some good news about Iran by Jerome a Paris
Iran: still no military solution by IdiotSavant
Billmon: Mutually Assured Dementia by Bernhard
The US as nuclear rogue State by Sirocco
Hersh: the Iran plans by whataboutbob
Iran ready for high level talks; US resist by Jerome a Paris
Are you sure you want to legalize preemptive strikes? by Colman
Gnomemoot 0: how bad could Iran get? by Colman
2003: neocons killed Iranian peace offer (on nuclear and terrorism) by Jerome a Paris (dKos)
Stalemate in the UN Security Council. A New "Cold War" with Iran? by verchenceto
Russia: US campaign against Iran looks like the one against Iraq by Jerome a Paris (dKos)
Gnomemoot 0: A poorly thought out proposal by Colman
John Bolton is Lying about Iran's Nukes by Steven D
Huh, Iran has uranium mines by Colman
'Ira() has nukes, will use them - we must strike first' by Jerome a Paris (dKos)
I have a cunning plan my Lord by Colman
Iraq could deploy WMD within 48 hours by Colman
Gnomemoot: should we get on the record? by wchurchill
EU 3 meeting with Iran today by whataboutbob
The Monolith Crumbles: Reality and Revisionism in Iran by ghandi
Gnomemoot 0: Iran - problem summary and more questions by Colman
Let me kill off once and for all the Iranian oil bourse story by Jerome a Paris
Let Iran have the bomb
The US as nuclear rogue State (II)
The US as nuclear rogue State (I)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 03:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Economist's article argues strongly AGAINST any military attack on Iran

Good thing you say so, because you would hardly believe it given the general tone of your article, with quotes from the most extremist people given prominent position and, almost hidden at the end, a rather timid advocacy that The Economist is actually against a military attack on Iran.

Sir, if you're against such a foolish course of action, why not saying so in no uncertain terms? You know, using short and direct sentences and capitalized words for emphasis. Or are you reserving this scoop for the much more widely read Eurotrib?

What are you afraid of? Being called names inside the Beltway? (or even worse, French :-)

Also: "(a) it [Iran] has threatened Israel's destruction". As you, people, acknowledge in the article, Ahmadinejad may never have uttered those precise words, as Juan Cole also explained on his blog. So, which way will it be?

For people who are against military escalation with Iran, you sure are giving a lot of airtime to those people who are of the opposite view...

That's the general problem many of us have with The Economist: criticizing these dumb and arrogant Yanks in a thinly veiled but real subtle fashion, yet not getting around to openly and plainly opposing the policies of the ruling cabal in DC.

Thanks for stopping by and debating with us, by the way; much appreciated.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 03:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"There is indeed a rational case for pre-emption but we don't buy it."

Hi. I think that's one of the major flaws in your leader. You seem to take it as a given that the U.S. has a right to intervene in Iran if it deems doing so to be in it's interests, in effect that the U.S. has a right to rule the world.

It doesn't. Even if there were a "rational case" that attacking Iran would bring positive results for the U.S. and Israel, we would still have no right whatsoever to attack them. I think that's a critical point, and its missing from your editorial.

Further, you start the leader thus:

"Iran's leaders think a nuclear weapon could rejuvenate their tired revolution."

Do they? Really? I was under the impression that the Iranian leadership had repreatedly denied any desire for a nuclear weapon, and that the IAEA has been unable to discover any evidence to the contrary.

You write:

"While the world has been distracted by Iraq, Afghanistan and much else, Iran has been moving relentlessly closer to the point where it could build an atomic bomb."

Has it? Again - as far as I'm aware (and please provide the evidence if I'm wrong on this), we have no proof that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon. Isn't it therefore the height of irresponsibility to assume that it is, given the current political climate?

"Figuring out how to put the fuel into a usable weapon will also take time--perhaps a year or more. But for would-be bomb-builders, making the fuel is by far the hardest part."

Again, you're assuming that Iran is trying for a bomb. That is not a legitimate assumption.

"It has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and says its nuclear aims are peaceful. But having spent decades deceiving nuclear inspectors, it is disbelieved even by its friends."

Yes, Iran hasn't been exactly honest about its nuclear programme in the past (to put it mildly). However, since it all finally came out Iran has been extremely cooperative, voluntarily suspending enrichment and submitting to extensive IAEA checks and investigations, and even, for a time, acting on the basis of optional additional protocols that gave the IAEA even more access. The result has been that, while there remain some inconsistencies or unanswered questions, the IAEA has found no evidence of a nuclear weapons programme whatsoever.

"The centrifuges spin defiantly on."

The UNSC resolutions had no basis in law. Iran is entitled by the NPT to enrich uranium. If anything, you should say that the UN Security Council is acting "defiantly".

"So what next? This story could have at least three unhappy endings."

Well, there is another option, but of course it is considered too far beyond the pale to even bother mentioning. Iran has proposed this option itself numerous times: the Middle East could be made a nuclear weapons free zone. Or, even further beyond the pale, how about all the nuclear weapons states comply with the law, stop pretending that they have some God-given right to nukes that Iran and everyone else don't and start seriously working towards global disarmament? Or are we only allowed to think about how to maintain the unjust situation where some countries are permitted nuclear weapons whilst other are not?

"After the false intelligence that led America into Ira"

Well, I'd dispute your wording here. It's not just that the intelligence was "false", but rather that it was deliberately fixed around the policy. It was made to be false; it didn't just happen to be that way.

"But they are--and they are not mad."

Really? I would think that "mad" is quite an appropriate description of any state seriously thinking about perpetrating another criminal act of mass murder, even as the victims of its last such act are continuing to die in horrific numbers ever single day, don't you?

"This time, after all, there is no question of false intelligence: the world's fears are based on capabilities that Iran itself boasts about openly."

Yes, but surely you accept that it is totally illegitimate (criminal, in fact) to attack someone just because they have the capability to produce nuclear weapons? What matters is whether they actually are producing nuclear weapons.

And even then, unless there was solid evidence showing that Iran was planning to use those nuclear wepaons, an attack would not be legitimate (just as it would not have been acceptable to, for example, bomb Israel if we had found out what they were up to in Dimona in time).

"Yet such an attack would nonetheless be a huge gamble."

No, it would be a huge crime. Why do you never point this out? Is it unimportant? Doesn't it matter? Is the only relevant question whether or not its technically feasible, or strategically wise?

"The succinct answer of Senator John McCain is that although attacking Iran would be bad, an Iran with nuclear weapons would be worse."

Who cares what John McCain thinks? He supported the criminal aggression against Iraq, so is it really that surprising that he is in favour of a criminal aggression against Iran? John McCain has zero credibility, so why turn to him?

"He is not alone: most of America's presidential candidates would consider military force.
"

Yes, and they are only able to keep up that criminal stance because papers and journals like yours do not call them on it. Call them on it, please.

"But in fact he may never have uttered those precise words"

Well done for pointing that out, although you seem to contradict this in your comment above. What you fail to mention in this leader is that whatever Ahmadinejad said, he is the President, elected on the basis of his promises of domestic reforms, and thus has no power over foreign policy whatsoever. That power lies with Khamenei, who has explicitly said that 'Iran poses no threat to any state' (that's a paraphrase, but it's practically word for word - the precise quote is on Wikipedia, if you want it).

"This newspaper continues to believe that even for Israel containment of a nuclear Iran would be less awful than a risky pre-emptive attack"

A "pre-emptive attack" is not what's being discussed here. "Pre-emptive attacks" have a strict legal definition - an attack is preemptive if it is in response to an immediate and overwhelming threat, leaving no choice of means and no time for deliberation. In other words, for an attack to qualify as 'preemptive' it must be in response to strong evidence of an imminent attack. Anything else is "preventive" or "aggressive" - international law makes no distinction between the two.

Also, I note how your article is totally from the perspective of Israel and the U.S. THere is no attempt to step inside Iran's shoes and look at it from the Iranian perspective. Iran is surrounded by hostile nuclear powers (Israel and the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq) and is sitting atop energy resources that the U.S. has made perfectly clear it desires. It was named as part of the "axis of evil" by a country with an explicit policy, and a long history, of 'preventive force' (which, again, is legally indistinguishable from aggression). Iraq, its neighbour on the "axis", has already been invaded and destroyed - the lesson to Iran is clear: get nukes, quick! As Israeli military historian Martin van Crevald has said, "I don't know if Iran is developing nuclear weapons, but it they aren't, they're crazy!"

Instead, for The Economist, all that matters is the security of Israel and the U.S. Iran's security needs are, evidently, irrelevant.

"Even if Iran never used its bomb, mere possession of it might encourage it to adopt a more aggressive foreign policy than the one it is already pursuing in Iraq, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories."

Yes - 'gunboat diplomacy'. We can't have that, can we? Only the United States is permitted to use military might to back up its foreign policy.

"And once Iran went nuclear other countries in the region--such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and perhaps Turkey--would probably feel compelled to follow suit, thereby entangling the Middle East in a cat's cradle of nuclear tripwires."

Unless you think that the Arab states and Iran will be content to sit in the shade of a nuclear Israel forever, then this is going to happen sooner or later anyway. A world in which some have nuclear weapons and some don't is unsustainable (not to mention unjust), particularly if those that do adopt as aggressive a foreign policy as the U.S. and Israel have. The solution is not to invade Iran, but to work seriously towards global disarmament.

"Iran is obstinate, paranoid and ambitious."

Paranoid? Hardly. Iran would have to be totally crazy if it didn't fear for its security. Ambitious? Yes, although its hardly alone in that characteristic. Obstinate? Well, given that its only after its legitimate rights, why not be obstinate?

Surely it is those in Israel and the U.S., the global and regional military superpowers, both with sizeable nuclear arsenals of their own,  who claim that Iran poses a threat to them who are paranoid? Surely it is the U.S. that is being "obstinate" and "ambitious"?

See - you say this is an editorial against an attack, but in fact it works tirelessly to legitimise one.

"Sanctions that cut off equipment for its decrepit oilfields or struck hard at the financial interests of the regime and its protectors in the Revolutionary Guards would have an immediate impact on its own assessment of the cost of its nuclear programme."

OK - if you can present to me a morally and legally consistent argument that would permit sanctions on Iran but not on the U.S., please do so. I certainly can't think of one.

The Heathlander

by heathlander on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 06:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a lot of damn nerve coming in here with your brazen lying.  No reasonable person would come away from your article doubting that you and the Economist thinks an attack on Iran is worth considering.  You would not have even written the story if you didn't believe this to be true.

  1. The Economist has ZERO credibility here.  Not only did you guys support taking Hussein out, you have consistently supported economic policies over the past 30 years that have destroyed the lives of millions of people.  If you could support "structural adjustments" and you did, why would we believe you wouldn't support nuking Iran?

  2. Burying a little "balance" far into an article is just another CYA lie.  If you were really against an attack on Iran, your headline would have read, "Global Economic Calamity Certain from Attack on Iran."

  3. You have a lot of chutzpah to suggest Jerome isn't very bright because he didn't summarize your whole thesis (you even point out that he got the page count wrong.)  Listen you clown, I have read both of you and in my humble opinion, you are not intellectually qualified to wash Jerome's shorts.  More to the point, while Jerome is investing in real projects that solve real problems and provide some tiny hope for a possible future, your worthless rag thinks that there is nothing wrong with "investing" in derivatives.  I am pretty certain that the whole staff of the Economist--together--wouldn't recognize the difference between investing and computerized speculation.  You guys wouldn't know a real investment if it kicked you in the backside.


"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"
by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 09:25:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please, no need for flames on ET! Chasing away Mr. David is not a worthy goal.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 04:27:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, but let us give Mr. David the benefit of the doubt, and suppose that he has skin think enough to not come undone for a few enraged reactions. He was after all brave enough to step into this nest of leftist cranks that quite clearly have no love for his publication or any of the viewpoints it so repeatedly peddles.

So, a warm welcome to Mr. David. Hope you don't mind a few sharp elbows to the ribs...

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 04:50:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the eco-no a new religion?

Having clear opinions and being angry with good reason is a most worthy goal and we are constantly "chased" and ignored by that waste of paper.  

Why should Peter scare so easy?  If an editor has not had worse discussions at work, he is not doing his job.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 04:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How cute Mr. David. Trying to obscure the truth with your carefully picked facts. The more I look at your article, the more disingenuous your defense appears...perhaps, actually, because the original article is so disingenuous.

You began an article with the ravings of a madman who is loudly calling a kettle black. As a member of a religion who many believe is a cult, I truly believe that people should be allowed to enjoy whatever beliefs they want, regardless of how absurd they are. But let's get down to it...how is the Jewish faith, the official dogma of the Israeli state, any less a messianic apocalyptic cult, ruled for decades by messianic apocalyptic tyrants, than Iran may be? You choose to assert that the Iran has threatened Israel's destruction, but the facts of the quote you would use to prove that are against you... Ahmadinejad clearly stated, regardless of how the press decided to announce it, that at some point Isreal would be wiped off the map in the same way that the USSR has been wiped off the map. [[T]his regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.]

You cannot logically claim to have a different conclusion when your article is unreadable by anyone who knows the history of the region. It is impossible to get past the first paragraphs. Para 3 for example-Despite your bold assertion, what Iran is doing now is not illegal. Period. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty allows a country to build peaceful nukes. End of story. That a group of countries who have terrorized the world for several decades with the MAD theory might think that Iran is doing something different...helloooo? Why do they have any credence? Why does Israel, with more never inspected actual nuclear warheads than nearly anyone, get off the hook? Because her leaders are so logical? No, in fact, they are madmen, and that some of their leaders express it so clearly, let's face it, they are genocidal madmen.

Here...lead your article with one of these quotes next time.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

You should be embarrassed that you are in the position of having to defend an indefensible article. All those dripping lines, too clever by half, from the first dig at the Iranian Revolution, to the non-sense implying an Iranian bomb in a year...indefensible.

In the not too distant future, your country will have the same problems that Iran is facing. Less revenue from oil, not enough oil to keep the population happy, and the inability to trust any other resource than nuclear. Will England take the same course as the US, roving like a shark, constantly investing more in military to secure areas of importance? Oh, I forgot, England has already gone through that stage. Careful, the US has bankrupted England once before. Is Iran going to be roaming half-way around the globe the way that the messianic-ally driven US is? I don't think so. Keep your eye upon who the real threat is, lest you be seen for what you are...a shill for your master.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 03:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a statement of unpleasant facts about the current situation

I recognise your argument that a future Israeli PM thinking this way about his adversaries makes the situation more difficult. However,

  1. you should have made this explicit in the article, I don't think we are the only ones who missed it;

  2. this argument is weakened if one considers whether Netanyahu's words are his actual thoughts -- or is he only campaigning;

  3. what's more, Netanyahu makes the situation more volatile before Iran would get nukes, while he still can advocate a preventive bombing campaign.


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 04:39:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear Mr. David,

Jérôme's omissions don't change some of my impressions. Look at this pair of quotes:

It is vital to understand that this [Iran with the nuclear bomb] is not a nightmare dreamt up by editorial writers. After the false intelligence that led America into Iraq, and the mayhem that followed, it may seem hard to believe that America or Israel are pondering an attack on a much bigger Muslim country. But they are--and they are not mad.

The upshot, say Israel and some American experts, is that Iran may have a bomb by the end of 2009.

This is exactly the same level of proof as before the Iraq War, the same level accepted by you as the media. Worse, the spin on what others say on the subject also sounds similar:

Mohammed ElBaradei, the IAEA's director-general, is more cautious. But even he says that if Iran really wants a bomb it could now build one within three to eight years.

So this should be an issue not for mad people because Baradei says that if Iran wants a bomb, it would get one in 3-8 years? I imagine 3-8 years of inactivity while Iran switched to highly enriched uranium production?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 01:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just like Saddam choose his faith when he dumped the Iraqi dollar reserves, so did Amahdinejad.

Iran's Oil cycle is terminal, in ten years the country will be stop exporting the stuff. Natural Gas reserves are huge (at least on the paper) but difficult to transport to North America. Access to the Caucasus is already guaranteed with the invasion of Afghanistan.

The dollar is the only reason left for a US led attack (or any other kind of aggression against Iran). The proof was the closure of the M3 publication days before the Iran Oil bourse was set to open. Up to now this bourse is yet to materialize, but Iran is already demanding non-dollar currency against its Oil.

Why were France and Germany against the invasion of Iraq from the very beginning? And why did the UK actively participated?

Back to the war, we might not get one. It is too dangerous to have another war in the Gulf right now with circa 16 million barrels of oil a day flowing through (and let's not forget about solidarity from other OPEC members). And the US might meet its ends without war anyway, by conducting a serious embargo or by rocking down the Iranian regime.


Vencit omnia veritas.

by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]a[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]gmail[dot]com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 12:57:51 PM EST
Iran's Oil cycle is terminal, in ten years the country will be stop exporting the stuff.

All the more reason to use their oil revenue over the next 10 years for developing an alternative energy infrastructure.

Instead, they'll probably get "regime change", the oil siphoned off to the US, and no development of alternatives, and then 10 years from now they'll be left to rot.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 01:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All the more reason to use their oil revenue over the next 10 years for developing an alternative energy infrastructure.

Exactly. Most people ignore this fact.

It is also important to note that Nuclear and Natural Gas are not exactly interchangeable sources of electricity. This later is used to guarantee base-load capacity while the former to accommodate intraday demand variations.

Vencit omnia veritas.

by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]a[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]gmail[dot]com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 01:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't it the other way around? Nuclear for baseload and gas for intraday variations?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 01:22:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry for that, you're right. Writing in foreign languages at light speed is indeed dangerous.

Vencit omnia veritas.
by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]a[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]gmail[dot]com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 03:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As a relative newcomer to ET - and I for one welcome your active participation - you probably are unaware of some of the discussion on ET on the subject of that almost mythical beast - the "Iranian Oil Bourse" - and the related subject of oil, euro's, the dollar and so on.

This interview in Energy Bulletin

Iran Oil Bourse Interview

sets out the facts quite well.

My take on it is that oil is a relatively small, but growing, part of Dollar denominated trade, and that the willingness of China and other mercantile creditors of the US to hold dollar reserves has been infinitely more important to the dollar than the pricing of oil in $.

Having said that, the Chinese etc therefore have every reason to manage the decline of the $ as carefully as possible.

However, I believe that a crisis in the world financial system is approaching, if not already begun, in which the Dollar/ Oil relationship is key.

For what it's worth, "Asia Times" published my views on possible future architectures of markets here

Price $ in Oil, not Oil in $

So, while I cannot pretend to any knowledge of the US motives for invading Iraq, other than my personal conviction that it was in search of private profit, I can say - because the IOB was my idea in the first place - that its genesis (and the entrenched, and continuing, resistance of the Iranian Oil Ministry to the IOB ever since) had nothing whatever to do with the pricing of oil in the $ or any other currency.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 04:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I recall correctly the idea of an Oil Burse in Iran was put up still in the Katami days. By itself the bourse was not a menace or nothing of notable at the time.

It was only during the Amahdinejad days that the bourse took its currency role, when it was made clear that the US$ would be left out. Later the media ventilated straightforward declarations from the Iranian Oil ministry that the bourse was an attack on the greenback. This was reported on the Teheran Times (again from memory) it was then deleted from their servers and some time later it was denied by the Iranian government.

Every day more than 40 million barrels of oil are traded internationally. At 80 dollars per barrels that equates to more than 3 billion (3x10e9) changing hands every day. On the course of a year that will go over 1 trillion dollars (1x10e12).

To get a better grasp of what this means, think that China's $ reserves can buy all the oil traded internationally during a year.

The trade of Oil in $ is the primary reason for non-US central banks to build $ reserves. This is clear when you take into account the amount of currency needed in the trade every day. Naturally when the dollar became the de facto world currency things got a different aspect, but Oil is the root of it.

What you have to understand is this, to keep US economy running with the current trade deficit the country had to export debt at a hallucinating pace. The amount of foreign currency reserves kept around the world has been growing 20% per year (doubling every 2/3 years). If that growth rate eases by any reason, it's farewell to the greenback.


Vencit omnia veritas.

by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]a[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]gmail[dot]com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 03:07:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OPEC has been actively considering pricing oil in Euro's ever since Euro's were created, and I would imagine that this is moving further up their Agenda at every meeting.

And I can tell you from the inside that not a word has ever been spoken about trading crude oil on the "Iranian Oil Bourse" in dollars or anything else because the Iranian Oil Ministry has never had the least intention of allowing crude oil to be traded on this "IOB" or anywhere else.

We had a 2 hour meeting with Kazempour Ardebili (20 years the Iranian OPEC rep) who made that quite clear.

Oil products, such as bitumen and petrochemicals, are the only likely candidates for trading on the exchange, which will be a sub-division of the Tehran Commodities Exchange (due to be launched tomorrow, I understand) and which combines two existing minor Tehran exchanges, in Metals and Agricultural products.

We met Khatami in late 2005, and he put what was left of his authority behind the IOB project (it was conceived in 2001, but didn't get going until May 2004): it made no difference.

Subsequently, Ahmadinejad - who we know was very much behind the project - was never able to appoint a non-insider as Oil Minister. He had 3 goes and gave up.

The Dark Side won: you can forget transparency in Iranian oil any time soon.

So much for the IOB: the amount of dollars physically needed for oil purchases is de minimis: it's not even a pimple on the backside of the $ FX marketwhich turns over trillions per day.

The whole thesis of the Saddam/IOB oil in Euro's conspiracy theory is and always has been completely misguided.

Having said that, the unsustainability of US fiscal and trade policy is not in doubt. There is a crisis coming, and oil will indeed be at the heart of it simply because oil sellers will no longer be using dollar proceeds to buy dollar assets (I mean liabilities...)

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 03:17:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" . . . that Iran having the nuclear bomb will bring instability in the region. No actual argument is given to justify it, except an appeal to fear, and to the unconscious image of Iran-as-the-bogeyman, the evil regime that dared get rid of friend-of-America-Shah-Pavlavi and keep US diplomats prisoner for many months."

This I have to take issue with. Since coming to power, the Iranian theocracy has sought to export their brand of Islam to neighboring countries.

Other than numerous border skirmishes with Iraq, the Iranian mullahs sought to have Hussein overthrown by inciting the Iraq Shia. They were behind the development and support of Hezbollah to overthrow the sectarian government in Lebanon. So from the outset, no one will argue that Iran has been one of the primary sources of instability in that region.

In addition, Iran's Ahmadinajad has made numerous inflammatory and very threatening remarks regarding Israel and its existence. Putting aside his horrific actions as a Holocaust denier, he told 3,000 Iranian students, "As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map." Even the former Iranian President said that if his country were to develop a nuclear weapon it would be used to destroy Israel. Ahmadinajad has also said that any Muslim country that has friendly relations with Israel will face the wrath of their own people.

Assuming that Ahmadinjad is sane then his statements represents a clear threat to at least Israel. If he is a mad man then it is worse. In either case to allow this regime to access a nuclear weapon is irresponsible and needs to be avoided at all costs - particularly if you are the State of Israel and do not have a death wish.

I am not disputing any of your other arguments: from the Shah to Iraq.

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 02:48:09 PM EST

Since coming to power, the US right-wing thas sought to export their brand of 'democracy' to other countries.

Other than invading Iraq, the US neo-cons sought to have Hussein overthrown by inciting the Iraq Shia.  (Before this current invasion)

So from the outset, no one will argue that the US has been one of the primary sources of instability in that region.

In addition, US leaders have made numerous inflammatory and very threatening remarks regarding Islam, Arabs and their existence.

Assuming that Bush is sane then his statements represents a clear threat to Middle East stability at least. If he is a mad man then it is worse. In either case to allow this regime to access a nuclear weapon is irresponsible and needs to be avoided at all costs.

Small varmints, if you will.

by Eric K on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 05:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL

Welcome to ET.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 05:29:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.  I've become a fan of Jerome's diaries at DKos and thought I'd come over here.

Too bad it is too late to stop the US neo-cons from getting their hands on nukes.  Hopefully the Dems will have a landslide win in 2008.

Small varmints, if you will.

by Eric K on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 05:53:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does this have to do with Iran and their threat to Israel?

By the way, if the U.S. was trying to incite the Iraq Shia, then why were they providing support to Hussein in his war against Iran?

When you say "from the outset" what is your time frame? Because the British and French were causing more instability in the region long before the Americans.

Again you did not address what i wrote about which has to do with Iran and their threats to the region - particularly Israel. Unless you regard them as legitimate threats.

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 05:57:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[i]What does this have to do with Iran and their threat to Israel?[/i]

The US is off-and-on threatening military action against Iran.  The US is Israel's main ally.  The US has a large portion of its armed forces right next to Iran right now.  How can the US's disposition not have everything to do with it?

[i]By the way, if the U.S. was trying to incite the Iraq Shia, then why were they providing support to Hussein in his war against Iran?[/i]

I didn't say it made sense.  Neo-cons rarely do.  However, those were at different times. The US encouraged a Shia uprising in Southern Iraq once they decided Hussein was no longer useful.

[i]When you say "from the outset" what is your time frame? Because the British and French were causing more instability in the region long before the Americans.[/i]

Well, if that lets the US off the hook, it lets Iran off the hook too, eh?  I was just using your words. The point was that there is more than one destabilizing force in the Middle East and the US is the biggest one at the moment (what with that Iraq mess and all).

[i]Again you did not address what i wrote about which has to do with Iran and their threats to the region - particularly Israel. Unless you regard them as legitimate threats.[/i]

Iran is a threat to Israel.  Israel is a threat to Iran.  Israel isn't exactly a stabilizing force in the Middle East either.  

The point of my comment is that a US/Israel war on Iran isn't going to help matters, it will only make things worse (unless wiping all threats to Israel off the map is the goal I guess, although how that is morally suprerior to the 'wipe Israel off the map' crap I don't know).

Small varmints, if you will.

by Eric K on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 06:11:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You should use either regular HTML <i> tags or underscores instead of [i].

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 06:13:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That'll learn me to post without previewing first.

But anyway, I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers the Bush I era Shia uprising we (the US that is) encouraged at first then abandoned to a reprisal that wiped it out.  People seem to forget that.  

Not to mention the various times we've led the Kurds in Iraq down the primrose path then screwed them over (or at least stood back while they got screwed over).

Small varmints, if you will.

by Eric K on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 06:19:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know how to do that either.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 07:01:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
<em>like this</em>
<i>like this</i>
or
_like this_

like this
like this
or
like this

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 05:17:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great responses. "I didn't say it made sense" - that's the best :).

I personally do not think the Iran Mullahs are that crazy and did intentionally install Ahmadinajad to counter the rhetoric of opposing countries.

I am concerned about nuclear weapons in the hands of countries that are not totally stable which Iran is not. We can see that in Pakistan right now. If Musharraf's regimes falls some of the options places Europe and the U.S. in grave danger.

Regarding Iran, I think what is happening is lots of saber rattling on all sides which is fine as long as it results in a diplomatic solution as it appears to be in North Korea.

I do not see Israel electing Beten-yahoo anytime soon since the majority of Israelis are tired of war and want to be focused on peaceful coexistence with Palestineans and all other neighbors.

Iran is in much the same situation China was during the cold war until there were diplomatic understandings with most countries and trading agreements were worked out.

In Iraq the neo-cons are out. If you watch closely at what is happening Bush Sr. (the master diplomat) has become Bush Jr.'s top advisor which is why you see a sudden shift toward diplomacy on all fronts. Cheney no longer has the power he once had and he had it all.

This so-called surge plan was actually a way for Bush Jr. to paint his way out of a corner that he painted himself into. In September there will be a major shift in policy even if Bush Sr. has to give his son a "time-out."

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 07:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope you are right, with regards to Cheney's influence.  A Democrat big win in 2008, which seems likely at this point, will also of course help.

I'd say Pakistan is the bigger danger when it comes to unstable realms and nukes, seeing as Pakistan definately has nuclear missiles already.

However, Pakistan is a US ally in the so-called "War on Terror" (or whatever they are caling it today) and it is off the media radar in respect to its nuclear arsenal falling into even more extreme hands than it already is.  If I had to pick the most likley spot for a nulcear war, Pakistan Vs. India would be it.

Small varmints, if you will.

by Eric K on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 08:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am certain about Cheney as well as the influence of Bush Sr. Politics in DC should never be painted with a broad brush, it is usually sublties that make a difference. It is never stagnant, and it is best to reflect on what is taking place now in comparison to what took place six months ago or a year ago.

I always believed from that the neocons brought Bush Jr. to power but made sure Cheney was there to run things. Bush Sr. was never one of those neocons and was kept on the outside until the '06 election disaster. Bush Sr. and his allies like Jim Baker forced their way in and have pushed Cheney aside for all intents and purposes.

Regarding nuclear weapons, I don't see any difference between Pakistan and Iran. They are both highly volatile states with significant internal dissent which is a bad formula for for nuclear weapons.

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 09:19:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, if the U.S. was trying to incite the Iraq Shia, then why were they providing support to Hussein in his war against Iran?

We're talking about the Shia uprising of 1991, which was encouraged by the US in the aftermath of the liberation of Kuwait by Bush the 1st, but then US then figured they preferred Hussein in power to a Shia regime and let Saddam brutally suppress the uprising.

Which, apparently, goes a long way towards explaining why the Iraqi Shia don't much like the US, even if they removed Saddam.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 06:11:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point taken. It also points out the ever changing ebbs and flows of this Muslim region and simplistic solutions like bringing Jeffersonian democracy to any of these countries is plain ignorant.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 07:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jeffersonian democracy in the US would be no bad thing, though.....

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 07:54:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, Iran's system is a pretty good example of "Islamic democracy". if you remove the closed loop of power. But I suspect that only works when you have a more culturally homogeneous country than Iraq.

Do you think Lebanon's sectarian system is an acceptable democratic arrangement? It might be the only way to get disparate communities to share a single state. It worked pretty well until the Israel/Palestine conflict spilled over.

Northern Ireland's political system is also sectarian in ways that make me very uncomfortable and lead to political gridlock, but again it may be a necessity.

And then there's the Low Countries' now obsolete pillarisation.

So, yes, why export Jeffersonian Democracy? The principle of self-rule and self-determination is an entirely different beast.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 05:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear BJ Lange,

I hope that the following addresses the concern that you have that your points are not being systematically addressed.

Please read the article in the following link completely and objectively. You might be surprised about what you know.

Does Iran's President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?

Next, check this site for the known unknowns about Israel's nukes.

Strategic Israel-The Arsenal of an Undeclared Nuclear Power

Then search the net for quotes from Israeli leaders over the last 7 decades concerning the rights of Palestinians on what Israel regards as its land. Here is one of David's, but you can search for some of Golda's that are just as reprehensible, or Ariel's or even Yitshak's.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 06:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not surprised. Ahmadinajd is a master in the use of language but it should never be mistaken what his intent is. It is clear and based on the totality of his words and actions. He led a movement to deny the very existence of the holocaust and he does want to get rid of Israel as many other Arab leaders have had as their goal. Fortunately it is primarily rants because they do not possess the capability to do it and never will.

Regarding your last statement. You quoted a highly disputed quote allegedly made by Ben Gurion. I am sure that you can go to anti-Jewish websites and find more alleged quotes from other Israeli leaders that are either taken out of context or just fabricated.

There is a longer history of Jews in the Middle East before Israel including earlier in the 20th century.

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 08:00:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mean that you believe his words when they suit what you believe and dismiss them when they don't?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 08:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you are speaking about current world leaders, I take seriously what a world leader says and look carefully at the context in which they are saying it.

But if you are speaking about former Jewish leaders and alleged quotes or misquotes I would be very careful about their characterization.

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 08:15:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And not those of Muslim leaders against whom there is a pretty clear propaganda campaign?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 08:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Specifically? Sorry, not sure what you are speaking about.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 10:08:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You seem to be concerned that Jewish leaders may have their words twisted or taken out of context but seem to think that doesn't happen to Iranian leaders.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 10:11:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish it were true. How are Ahmadinejad's word taken out of context? Because there was hardly a country not up in arms over his statements. The intent of his remarks can be questioned and debated.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 10:39:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read Juan Cole's interpretations. He seems to think that the spin put on them doesn't fit the meaning in Farsi.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 10:42:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Will do. Do you ahve a link?
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 11:59:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This article has a wealth of links, to Juan Cole and others.
Now, if we can attract more attention to the substantive dispute of the Cole-Hitchens fight, we will also call attention to the fact that translations are tricky business. And those with political agendas can selectively choose translations to obscure the big picture and manipulate the media.
The original Juan Cole post (apparently including a link to the Farsi transcript of the original Khomeini speech) is this (May 2006):
The precise reason for Hitchens' theft and publication of my private mail is that I object to the characterization of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as having "threatened to wipe Israel off the map." I object to this translation of what he said on two grounds. First, it gives the impression that he wants to play Hitler to Israel's Poland, mobilizing an armored corps to move in and kill people.

But the actual quote, which comes from an old speech of Khomeini, does not imply military action, or killing anyone at all. The second reason is that it is just an inexact translation. The phrase is almost metaphysical. He quoted Khomeini that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." It is in fact probably a reference to some phrase in a medieval Persian poem. It is not about tanks.

This was followed by this  (May 2006) and this (June 2007).

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 12:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I may have missed a few boats here (apologies if I have), but hasn't one of the millions of iranians who can speak and write english given us a more-or-less definitive answer to this issue yet?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 12:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed:
It is a shame that nobody had pointed this out before Juan Cole. Cole's translation of the persian passage is indeed much closer to the target. I re-red the persian and Cole is right.

It is still a threat, don't get me wrong. There is a quasi-hegelian ring to the original, as something that will occur as history unfolds. Not a nice thing to say (or hope for) but not as awful as the bad English translation made it sound.

by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Tue May 9th, 2006 at 07:45:25 PM BST

 

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 12:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds similar to Khrushtchev's "We will bury you"...

Also, why doesn't anyone points to the fact that the Iranian president would hardly be the one with the finger on the big red nuclear switch if Iran got the bomb ? The President currently hardly is the most powerful person in Iran...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 01:58:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"the Iranian president would hardly be the one with the finger on the big red nuclear switch"

That is right. He is more or less a figure head and mouthpiece for the mullahs.

Apparently Ahmadinejad did not say Israel will be wiped off the map and Khrushchev did say "We will bury you . . ." Neither leader had enough internal support to do much damage. All part of the purpose of the U.N. so that countries could say what they want as long as they did not toss missiles.

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 02:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"We will bury you" being an idiomatic expression in French as well as in Russian, it means "we will survive longer" rather than implying any active participation in a violent process leading to the burial... Very similar.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 04:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting. I guess it didn't quite work out for Khrushchev and the Party. Of course he was slamming his shoe on the table for emphasis so you knew he trying to be threatening.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 05:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was apparently a cultural misunderstanding as well.  I forget  the precise story, and I'm meant to be asleep ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 05:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds similar to Khrushtchev's "We will bury you"...

You have missed the point entirely.

The US installed a puppet government in Iran in 1953. It was this government that Khomeini was referring to...it was there, and it was gone. Iran didn't get wiped off the map. The regime was replaced.

And this is exactly what he predicts will happen with the regime in Jerusalem. Not that Israel will get wiped off the map, (there is no such slang term used in the language) but that there will be a regime change in Jerusalem.

I am getting the impression that the problems of the world are greatly exacerbated by people's expectations that they should be able to read every person's statements with the dictionary of a certain mental midget sitting in the White House.

Did anyone take "This is not a game" as a sig line yet?

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Thu Jul 26th, 2007 at 06:43:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is similar in that a quote was -perhaps wilfully - misunderstood to imply threat of direct aggression where there wasn't any. I miss the point of how I have missed the point.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jul 26th, 2007 at 10:55:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then I ask permission to be humbled by your excellent response.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Jul 30th, 2007 at 03:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This makes sense. I am with Cole that I don't like the guy and would still not trust him with a nuclear weapon (but that would also include everyone).

I understand the intent of his message which is consistent with the political dialogue surrounding the Israeli-Palestinean issue.

I am of the belief that Ahmadinejad's very existence is a direct result of Bush's unilateral classification of Iran as an enemy soon after 9/11. He is serving a purpose for Iran which is to counter the rhetoric being thrown against it.

This started with the question of whether Iran represented a threat to the region. Of course they do but not any more than other of the Middle East countries. The central element of instability is Iraq and if a negotiated security agreement between certain countries can be worked out then it will serve to defuse most tensions.

The issue that still remains is nuclear weapons in Iran which the government has yet to admit to their development but is certainly progressing toward that. For what purpose would they need it?

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 12:39:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am of the belief that Ahmadinejad's very existence is a direct result of Bush's unilateral classification of Iran as an enemy soon after 9/11. He is serving a purpose for Iran which is to counter the rhetoric being thrown against it.

leaving aside the idiotic "axis of evil" speech, and since I've started quoting STA, let's do it again:

The U. S. position is unclear, perhaps because of an internal struggle within the Bush administration between those who advocate trying to reach an accommodation with Iran led by Secretary of State Rice and the hawks led by Dick Cheney.
Let me make a point that I cannot emphasize enough. The Iranian position is no more clear.

What is missing from most articles about Iran is the general fracture that exists in the country. This is new; it is a first in modern Iran. As a country, it has usually had a real unity.

The Iranian regime is no longer regimented! It is fractured for the first time in modern Iranian history. The difference between Afghanistan and Iran, or at least one of the differences, used to be that no governing body in Afghanistan could hold the country together. Hence warlords.

In Iran, however poorly managed, the government in place -- Shah's or the current retards -- had a discernible political line.

The infightings and backstabbings are pushing Iran into a new territory. I am not even talking about conservative vs. moderates [sic]. Even the conservatives can't agree on practically anything. Ahmadinejad is in place because they cannot deal with each other.

The war talk helps create a semblance of unity where there is none. An attack against Iran would create unity, among the rulers, but perhaps even among the people.

by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Wed May 17th, 2006 at 04:39:18 PM BST



Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 12:48:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am aware of the fracture and even Ahmadinejad's election was questionable. But I cannot see Iran becoming secular as it once was nor do they appear to be stagnating as an authoritarian theocracy. One would hope that as negotiations , under the excuse of iraq security, goes on it results in some common understandings and coexistence. China certainly developed over time along that path and one could see Iran doing the same. One can only hope.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 01:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The threats to Israel are less clear than is indicated by the mainstream accounts. The translations are contested and are in the context of pandering to populist voters.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 06:10:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They were behind the development and support of Hezbollah to overthrow the sectarian government in Lebanon.

Oh come on. I mean, what exactly was Hezbollah created against?...

Your other points have been dealt with.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 04:47:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"what exactly was Hezbollah created against?... "

It was created in the 80's during their civil war to support/impose Shia rule. You have another answer?

by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 05:52:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. What about foreign occupation?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 06:01:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True but that was part of the civil war. The sectarians were supported by outside countries and so was Hezbollah. The focus of Hezbollah was on controlling Lebanon which included ridding the country of intruding countries.
by BJ Lange (langebj@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 06:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can spin this many ways. But "the goal of Hezbollah was to liberate Shi-ites, starting with foreign occupiers and then progressing with the Maronites, with the ultimate ideal of establishing Lebanon as a Khomeinist state, which was later abandoned as the leadership recognised the realities within the country and the Shi'a community itself" comes closer to the truth. At any rate, during the Israeli invasion, the Civil War was long on-going but Hezbollah didn't yet exist, what's more, the Shi'a initially supported the Israelis for going after the bothersome Palestinian groups.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 06:37:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"THE Iranian regime is basically a messianic apocalyptic cult." So says Israel's once and perhaps future prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu.

As opposed to the US, where the president most certainly is not a beliver in a messianic religion that is not only waiting for, but HOPING FOR an apocalypse to end the sinful, evil world.  

Oh wait, yes he is.  In fact, Bush has stated more than once his firm belief that he was specifically chosen by God to do what he is doing.

I guess such talk is only crazy, scary cult-talk if it is a non-Anglo spewing it.

Small varmints, if you will.

by Eric K on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 05:19:25 PM EST
One of things that recent history has shown us is that "facts" are in the eye of the beholder. When Saddam says he has no WMD's and provides the requested documentation the west says he is lying. When the UN inspectors report the same thing, their evidence is discarded.

How do we know what the Iranian nuclear program is? One of the big claims is that they are hiding things. Well it turned out Saddam was using bluster to cover up for his weakness. How do we know this isn't the case in Iran?

Why is the west making it so difficult for Iran to build up its nuclear power capabilities? Could it be that we are trying to provoke them into doing or saying something which can then be used as an excuse for military intervention?

The US has a long history of doing this. "Remember the Maine" and the Gulf of Tonkin incident are only two of the most well-known. But the US invaded Granada(!) on the basis of fake information too.

The US wants the theocrats in Iran overthrown. Whether this is because of geopolitical reasons or because of the Christian Messianism so popular in the current administration or because we just want to control their oil the objective is the same.

We played the same game of chicken with North Korea. What we got for it was five years of tension, the improvement of their weapons technology and, at best, a return to the status quo ante.

So the first thing to do in any discussion is to evaluate the credibility of the existence of a nuclear weapons program. Even if Iran might say it is developing such a weapon Iraq shows that this type of talk can't be taken at face value. Without real intelligence information fear mongering and the desire to start another fight are determining the direction of discussion.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 05:30:44 PM EST
We decided last year, after much debate and probing, that it was pretty clear that Iran was, at least, keeping its options open on weapons development given the way its nuclear programme is set-up.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 03:13:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are either being disingenuous or hope we are...

The 3 endings described by the editorial may be unhappy. However, the critical distinction is between those outcomes that are merely unhappy and those that are catastrophic. Outside the narrow circle of revivified neocons, can one maintain that an attack on Iran is a gamble with a possible unhappy (but just unhappy) outcome?

The editorial writer throws out a problem, and tells us that all the solutions are bad and proposes half-heartedly at the end a "sanctions resolution with sharper teeth". In all likelihood that won't work either.

If that is the case, we will need to face the three alternatives with a clearer idea about what we can live with and what will be disastrous. The editorial dodges that question, and instead  argues in a backhanded way that the three alternatives are equally bad.

That is where you are disingenuous or assume your readers are.

by CSTAR on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 08:21:57 PM EST
Even more disingenuous is tha fact that the editorial talks of "at least three" bad outcomes. There might be more, there might be even some good outcomes.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 05:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The subtext is yet more alarmist frying-pan beating about the Islamist Agenda.

Meanwhile closer to home we've seen cities devastated this week. The weather has done far more damage than any terrorist - especially the recent clowns - could ever hope to.

But instead of dealing with reality, here we are pretending that it's still the 19th century, and that anyone gives a crap what the state of the Great Game is.

A message for you, Mr Foreign Editor - please grow a brain and start dealing with the limitations of the physical world.

There are more important things than pretending that Washington owns the planet, or has a right to try to, when the reality is that the Washington Consensus is dead, and the most we can expect from it are a few final corpse-spasms.

Half of Europe is on fire, the other half is drowning. In terms of the here and now, your slippery foreign policy platitudes about Iran are irrelevant.

How important do you think they're going to be when the next storm cycle rolls around and you find yourself without power, food, and clean water?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 09:40:28 PM EST
I highly doubt there's much chance of an attack on Iran.  As far as people are concerned here in DC, the Bush administration is over -- crumbling more and more by the day.  No one takes the man seriously anymoe.  (He's trying to gut SCHIP now and being slammed by even his staunchest allies.  In addition to enjoying the lowest approvals since Nixon, -- and he'll beat him before all is said and done -- he's choosing losing issues and with the support of shitty talking points.)  It's over.

Israel may take a shot at Iran.  That's Israel and Iran's problem, -- and the Region of Lunatics(TM) can tear each other apart for all I care -- but it's going to be a while before America gets involved in a fight like that.  I wouldn't hold my breath if I were Israel.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 at 11:02:11 PM EST
The article is pretty run-of-the-mill for The Economist, I love more their amti-Russian stuff.

What's more disturbing is dangerous approach taken by leading American politicians.

John McCain...is not alone: most of America's presidential candidates would consider military force.

They do not seem to be aware what such treatment they give to Iran or any other country effects on people's mind in the third world. It's inhuman approach, when American deny to other people or countries to have aspirations and desires which they do not deny to themselves.

What sort of right has Britain with meagre population of one the smallest Indian states for nuclear weapons and occupation of seat in Security Council? Britain has no any moral authority in the world now and her ruler, chief minister Gordon Brown should admit this fact and the Economist could do once in a lifetime good job of conveying this simple thought to his majesty Brown.

by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Tue Jul 24th, 2007 at 10:02:37 AM EST


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]