European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

I took this photo for you, Jerome! Not quite large scale but together with a number of solar panels, this provides 95% of the electricity on Flat Holm island, which I visited on saturday.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 01:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Very cool. Congrats to someone. ;)

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 01:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds interesting: (4.00 / 2)

A closer link.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 01:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds interesting: (4.00 / 4)

Ah, I didn't think someone was a wind energy finance expert ;-))

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds interesting: (4.00 / 4)

She's scrambling about now, tearing out her hair, trying to remember agreeing to speak at this conference. lol. ...assuming someone is a she.

I guess, in a way, we are all "someone." Everyone is...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Someone was definitely a she when we met her in Paris. Mind you, as I've demonstrated myself, stuff like that doesn't have to remain fixed.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Neither does the hair colour!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds interesting: (4.00 / 2)

Are you implying that her husband might be in for quite a surprise when he returns from America?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Berlin is very cool (4.00 / 2)

We had fun when we visited in 2004. I'm not sure if I could live there (way too big for me) but it's definitely a fascinating place to visit.

You've been there before, right?

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Berlin is very cool (4.00 / 4)

Actually, the only time I've ever been to Berlin was around Christmas 1990, i.e. just after the reunification. Very weird place.

East Berlin was very much looking more like Moscow than like West Germany, but it was the only place in Germany with ATMs that took foreign cards... Very decrepit, but much nicer looking than the West.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

East Berlin was/is nicer looking because it was less heavily bombed by allied forces.

by Loefing on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was in Berlin and Dresden in the summer of 1998. The whole centre of Berlin was a construction site (and I had recently watched the movie Das Leben is eine Baustelle, too) and I could see the Reichstag undergoing refurbishment. Dresden and Leipzig were also enjoying a lot of money for reconstruction at the time. I would expect most of East Germany to look very nice 10 years later.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes. East Berlin is not to say East Germany.

East Berlin may have been spared, relatively speaking. But of of the territory that became East Germany, most of its major cities were destroyed.

I'm grateful to see that progress is being made in reconstruction.

This is essential to an eventual European union.

by Loefing on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, city centers don't make a country... but yes, much of the Aufbau Ost money went into reconstruction.

I saw Dresden and that center of Berlin (the surroundings of Potsdamer Platz) finished last year. But also plattenbau, abandoned industrial installations, and deserted villages.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 12:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

State Sen. Ernie Chambers Sues God

Parts, surely. But in West Berlin more was rebuilt and less torn down to make room for concrete monsters.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds interesting: (none / 1)

Congratulations, Jerome!

Are you taking CH along? If you need a member who doesn´t speak German, just let me know. (:

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:01:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

CH? (none / 1)

Ah. Crazy Horse. I don't know. I expect there's a good chance he'll be around.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This sounds interesting: (none / 1)

Interesting indeed. But also expensive, unfortunately.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:36:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

McDonalds in Swaziland (4.00 / 5)

Fast Food is Bad For You!

The core of evil is a lack of empathy

by Nomad on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 12:49:03 PM EST

Re: McDonalds in Swaziland (4.00 / 3)

Fast food is bad for you

I dunno, I'm sure I've eaten in worse. the Plaza in Manchester features high on that list (ah happy daze)

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McDonalds in Swaziland (4.00 / 3)

The most successful recent film in Hungary was about the loser owner & loser friends of such a decrepit fast food stand trailer named "Glass Tiger". I have seen half a dozen real-life imitations since...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McDonalds in Swaziland (4.00 / 3)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:57:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

God in the news (4.00 / 3)

The lawsuit admits God goes by all sorts of alias, names, titles and designations and it also recognizes the fact that the defendant is omnipresent.
In the lawsuit, Chambers said he's tried to contact God numerous times.
"Plaintiff, despite reasonable efforts to effectuate personal service upon defendant 'Come out, come out, wherever you are,' has been unable to do so,'" Chambers said.
The suit also requests that the court, given the peculiar circumstances of this case, waive personal service. It said that being omniscient, the plaintiff assumes God will have actual knowledge of the action.
The lawsuit accuses God "of making and continuing to make terroristic threats of grave harm to innumerable persons, including constituents of Plaintiff who Plaintiff has the duty to represent." It says God has caused "fearsome floods, egregious earthquakes, horrendous hurricanes, terrifying tornadoes, pestilential plagues, ferocious famines, devastating droughts, genocidal wars, birth defects and the like."
The suit also says God has caused "calamitous catastrophes resulting in the wide-spread death, destruction and terrorization of millions upon millions of the Earth's inhabitants including innocent babes, infants, children, the aged and infirm without mercy or distinction."

Funny, haha, yes. Unfortunately the motivation behind the suit is absolutely offensive...

Report on Hindu god Ram withdrawn

The Indian government has withdrawn a controversial report submitted in court earlier this week which questioned the existence of the Hindu god Ram.
The report was withdrawn after huge protests by opposition parties.
The report was presented to the Supreme Court on Wednesday in connection with a case against a proposed shipping canal project between India and Sri Lanka.
Hindu hardliners say the project will destroy what they say is a bridge built by Ram and his army of monkeys.
Scientists and archaeologists say the Ram Setu (Lord Ram's bridge) - or Adam's Bridge as it is sometimes called - is a natural formation of sand and stones.

God debate aside, I'm not sure having monkeys build bridges is a really great idea, quality control-wise...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 01:45:49 PM EST

Re: God in the news (4.00 / 2)

http://www.geetabhawan.co.uk/printversion.php?page=adamsbridge

well better built by monkeys than destroyed by humans.

by PeWi on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God in the news (4.00 / 6)

by PeWi on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God in the news (4.00 / 2)

Ok, that's really quite lovely. Maybe we should let the monkeys build our bridges...

Question: do we allow them to unionize?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God in the news (4.00 / 3)

I can't believe you'd even ask such a question. Of course we need Monkey Unions. It should be a fundamental right.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God in the news (4.00 / 4)

Will management employ gorilla muscle to keep the working monkey down?

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God in the news (4.00 / 3)

Monkeys show affinity for tough union tactics; Study finds they'll go on strike if treated unfairly

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:01:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God in the news (4.00 / 2)

The findings, published in today's issue of the journal Nature, shed light on the evolutionary advantages of cooperation among animals in the wild, said Brosnan, because they suggest that such behavior can make a group of monkeys more closely knit and better able to avoid predators.

Exact, thr purpose of unions is to avoid predators...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tuesday Open Thread (4.00 / 8)

I haven't posted anything on Hungary for a long time. That's not because nothing happens, but because what happens is even more depressing that what goes on in Western Europe.

Item #1: local far-right youth party JOBBIK organised a paramilitary: the "Hungarian Guard". They managed to get an official permit, and have a legal constituting assembly on a public square, at which 55 guys appeared in black uniform with a fascist flag sewn into it. The parliamentary parties and the figurehead President reacted with theatrical and hypocritical political bickering. I got a distinct Weimar feeling.

Item #2: a year or two ago, János Zuschlag, then a young member of the governing Socialists, was taped to joke about the Holocaust to a friend -- at a Holocaust memorial service. He was then fired from the party, and one would have assumed that's the end of his political career. Instead, he is now back and has a leadership position in Budapest -- and is at the center of a corruption scandal: a clique of young Socialists awarded money to non-profit foundations in whose oversight boards they happen to sit, and a significant part of the handed-out money is unaccounted for. So far no consequence to anyone.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:10:04 PM EST

I dunno about joking about the Holocasut at a memorial service but doling out money to yourself and your mates from various front-organisations is pretty much standard operating procedure for party apparatchniks the whole world over. I bet every country can list a few of those.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

However, when it comes out, someone usually resigns. Here our hero left a meeting with a party boss, and declared to the assembled media: "There is no Zuschlag affair!"...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:54:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Between unpopular neoliberal reforms and protecting all of their scandal heroes, one wonders why the Socialists wonder that they are down in the polls.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and you are having floods, don't you (sis in law and mom in law are currently in budapest - they mentioned something

by PeWi on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, but now receding, I mentioned it the other day. It wasn't a truly big one, though: 168 centimetres below the record flood in spring 2006.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:23:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sky Colors (4.00 / 5)

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:38:05 PM EST

Re: Sky Colors (4.00 / 5)

Is this years worth of work that your friend has? I don't see how anyone can possibly manage to be in so many beautiful places in such a short space of time. So many shots like this either require getting very lucky or being extremely patient and waiting for the conditions to be right for that perfect shot. It's all very impressive.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sky Colors (4.00 / 3)

My favourite photographer has exactly 9 monthes of practice (and 8800+ pics you do the math :), and it's become a hobby that goes well with just walking around in a countryside you know well.

For the inspiration, a bit after the photographer got an internet connection (well before having a digital camera) I displayed some Christopher Burkett works(1) and digital image chasing on the internet started, with some particular interest on infoclimat(2). Using the digital camera to produce some pictures was next. Next step is obvious but a bit delayed (my fault).

(1) http://www.christopherburkett.com/
(2) http://www.infoclimat.fr/

Any advice you have on camera/lens equipment and pic taking is welcomed (I'm translating to french when needed :).

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sky Colors (none / 1)

9 months? that's impressive. Even surrounded by beautiful countryside to make photo opportunities easier, there is still a lot of talent in composing the shots well and capturing the scene. Doesn't look as though much advice is needed but I'm always happy to talk photography at anyone!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sky Colors (none / 1)

What's your feedback on your digital camera and lenses ?

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sky Colors (4.00 / 3)

Well, I have the Nikon D200 which I really love. It is a bridge between entry level and pro spec digital SLR cameras. It has plenty of capacity for me to develop my skills at a price I could just about afford.

I wholeheartedly recommend the 50mm prime lens for most things, especially low light. Wide angle for landscapes and some urban photography (I have 12-24mm).

My beautiful 105mm vibration reduction macro was another very good buy and I use it for a lot of things, mostly macro closeups, abstract and portrait and also in place of a zoom lens for distance shots but it is far less flexible in that context.

I acquired a second hand sigma zoom lens 70-300mm which surprisingly I make little use of, mostly because I need a tripod or support to prevent camera shake. I am more likely to use the standard kit lens - 18-70mm.
I also have a fisheye and a lensbaby which are novelties that I should have retained more self control over.

I desperately want a tilt and shift lens for architectural/urban photography and some lens extenders to do ultra close up macro work. those will be on my wish list for some time I suspect.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sky Colors (none / 1)

I'd also recommend something like a 28mm lens if you're shooting with a APS size sensor camera (which includes almost all consumer-level digital cameras). The sensor crop factor of 1.6 will make the 28mm effectively a 45mm, which will be useful for street stuff and indoor photography. The crop factor will make the 50mm actually a small tele, so you might not find it that handy at least indoors.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tztmail at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 08:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sky Colors (4.00 / 2)

Hey, Laurent, the Tarn was badly hit by storms last night, but I expect you, uh, heard about it?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:09:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sky Colors (4.00 / 2)

Albi was but not much in Castres, I'll get more news later :).

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/18/news/economy/fed_rates/index.htm?cnn=yes

The Feds have cut the interest rate 1/2 percent, and this is meant to save people from forclosure.

I don't think people are going into forclosure because their ARM shot up a half percent...

I obviously don't really understand these things....

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:53:25 PM EST

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2007/09/john-kerry-is-a.html#comments

Well, a half percent per year on $120,000 is $50 per month. That can be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:17:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Markets jumping around (none / 1)

euro at $1.3970
oil at $81.90
dow up 2.5%

one thing is clear: the dollar is going down...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is so annoying, Jerome (none / 1)

How many times do I have to ask that the $ exchange rate not be posted?

That´s bad for my health, so I keep my head in the sand. (:

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is so annoying, Jerome (none / 1)

emailed you

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What's up? (4.00 / 3)

Gorgeous weather outside today. Tomorrow, I'll take photos and post them, possibly in a frivolous, content-free diary (except for the neato Amsterdam photos, that is).

It had better not rain, dammit.

The indoor forecast includes more procrastination.

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:11:42 PM EST

Re: What's up? (4.00 / 2)

Tomorrow there is a regularly scheduled ET photoblogging open thread.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hm (4.00 / 2)

When do you guys put up the thread?

And congrats on the new front pager post!

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:18:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hm (none / 1)

LEP is in charge of tomorrow's photoblog. I think it goes up during the morning if possible.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll have to wait until next time (none / 1)

The afternoon has the best light for photos here. I love the special light you get in the fall around 3 pm or so, this time of year.

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:29:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll have to wait until next time (none / 1)

The thread won't be going anywhere! Lots more will be added later in the day so feel free to post yours up when you are ready. I know what you mean about the light as the day draws to a close. I hope you have good weather tomorrow.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's up? (none / 1)

By all means do a diary but tomorrow will also be Photography Blog day and we'd love to see your contribution to that as well!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill McKibben on Bjorn Lomborg (4.00 / 2)

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/9/17/21135/7701

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:50:59 PM EST

Re: Bill McKibben on Bjorn Lomborg (none / 1)

Okay, why is this Lomborg character hot shit all of a sudden? Seems like I can't go anywhere without seeing his name lately.
A Danish statistician?!? Writing a book on global warming? Huh? Wah? Eh? Uuhh....

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

HB ;-) (4.00 / 2)

Apparently the smiley turns 25 today (or tomorrow, for you in inferior timezones): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon#Creation_of_:-.29_and_:-.28

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:25:08 PM EST

Other Battles (4.00 / 3)

What gets me is the crowd doing nothing (or did they cheer at the beginning/) and wondering what I'd've done--maybe it's that the crowd wasn't united, or that the fear of being arrested--HST said he'd been arrested once and never wanted to be arrested again.

But...it's out on the web, one two three different videos and rememberinggiap over at Moon of Alabama...

...the sound of the taser...group solidarity--if they're gonna arrest ya, make sure you have support.

I'd appreciate comments from the ET crowd who lived through something...not similar...but the heightened tensions...I mean the sixties. I mean...I get my news from the web and this whole "We're going to war with Iran" nonsense...is taken seriously it seems by mainstream news organisations, or at least given a voice with the neutrality of the reporters...ach...

when a culture descends into what it can live with - that is, that it is not happening to them directly - then it has descended to barbarism

malooga often points out to the 'lord of the flies' character of the empire - & in incidents such as this we are watching it - in situ

how many 'incidents' in iraq - & i would say the overwhelming number of 'incidents' where people are murdered - in their cars, at barriers etc etc are as much an expression of the cultural aberration that lies at the heart of the empire as much as it is an expression of overwhelming force

even the notion of overwhelming force has at is heart - stupidy, short term thinking, it is the expression of bullies

that is why it was charming & i use the word advisedly when hugo chavez 'played' the bully against the real bullies in his united nations speech. there was great seriousness but there was always an extremely human reproach against the empire that had very liitle to do with ideology but had a great deal to do with humanity

& there seems to precious little of that inside the belly of the beast - tho we know that the great majority of americans are oppossed to this illegal & immoral war, the great majority understand the brutal lies that hold up this shiftless administration but they do nothing, as this audience does nothing

not one hand held out - just the baton & the taser

rememberinggiap (link above)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:06:32 PM EST

And in a comment from Tantalus (again, from the link above)

They're used to this in Florida. Apparently they have used stun guns on a child as young as six. There is no possible excuse for this. There is no possible way that a society that condones this can call itself civilized.

Apparently tasers can break your back. There's been a lot of talk about breaking the back of resistance lately, and that, it appears, is what they are doing to our children: manufacturing a spineless society. I am shaking with anger.

So there's also a class element. The poor, the marginalised know about this, they live this, but now it's touching the middle classes. Ask too many questions, get too loud, once the police man (or woman) decides enough's enough...ach

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/18/student.tasered/index.html

and the cops are now in trouble:

This is a good example of the technologies that enable the surveillance state working in the opposite direction. I could see a lawsuit without the combo of a video camera and youtube, but this damning, direct evidence instantly forced the hand of the police to put these guys on leave, and the odds of this guy winning a lawsuit based on excessive force are pretty good.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Battles (none / 0)

What does it matter? why should you put your trust into a judicial system when about to face extreme violence? (let us be clear, tazer are a step below guns) Your reasonning doesn't make sense. You don't win lawsuits for excessive violence against a system whose sole response is arrest, exclusion and tazing. Excessive violence implies a response that is above standards, above average. Yet, as you can see on the video, that was their only response, and it's likely that in all debates this is their only response.
This can't posibly be Kerry's first public debate: was he surprises to see cops intervene? is this by chance that the microphone is placed a step away from two police officers?

so? lawsuits? no, emigration.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Trust isn't involved here. The protester knew the risks to his person and came out ahead. This is a big black eye for the cops. A small piece of passive resistance that worked. Emigration? That is the coward's way out.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 08:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You write that the kid knew what kind of risk he was facing. This is extremely disturbing: you are telling me that tazing is a reasonable expectation. That tazing is a normal response to exceeding your time limit in a debate.

About emigration, a word that's often used in this sort of situation and that generates the most useless debate (i know i know, i used that word, so i'm just clarifying), it simply involves choosing to which government you give your money, and what actions you thus condone. You may think that political involvement can outweight this... I don't. But that's another discussion, more complicated than being coward or not being one.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:21:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Battles (none / 0)

Tazing is a known risk, yes. Police are by their institutional nature always interested in increasing their coercive power over the populace, which means this sort of activity has to be fought back constantly.

As far as emigration and choosing your government, I'd like to see more open borders but we're not going to have them anytime soon. Until the world is overall more equitable and the human population is under control we won't see it.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 12:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think there is a distinction to be drawn between a desire to obtain more coercive power and the fact that the police already has that increasing power. There is also the problem of the police acting as a political moderator in a public debate. This isn't part of coercive power, but political power.

As a result there is no reason to see the police as a institutional agent aiming at reducing crime, checked by a judicial system, and in which lawsuits are a check, or in which lawsuit signal political resistance.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 01:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Battles (4.00 / 4)

rg, this is so fucking outrageously sick!

No one in the audience protested! Some even seemed to be amused!

According to MSNBC's report, Kerry simply went back to the question and answer session while this man was being violated! ... For having been called upon by Kerry himself and having asked a controversial question.

Words fail me.
.

by Loefing on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 08:02:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

manufacturing a spineless society

The best way to ensure that you reproduce is to follow the crowd and play by the rules. As such very, very few individuals throughout history have encouraged individualistic behavior, particularly for women (as risk taking by men can sometimes lead to big rewards). What % of people participated in the movements of the 60's? I think the number is smaller than most people imagine.

As the Vietnam draft showed, or the civil rights movement for that matter showed, people will not riot and risk arrest until the potential benefits outweigh the real costs.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Battles (4.00 / 4)

In fact, I think HST said he'd been to jail once, and that was for a crime he didn't commit.

The whole scene: It's like a cross between Idiocracy and Brazil. American ET-ers: the sense I got is just...here's anna missed (from Moon of Alabama, link above)

Looks like the Milgram experiment in real life. The conformity and complicity of the audience is appalling, especially considering its a "liberal" one. Such displays of state violence have become expected to the extent that the audience is amused (and even cheering) as things begin to unfold, as if its a reality show - but then when the real violence comes on they laps into a catatonic stupor of inaction - like they are watching Rodney King at home on television. They don't call us sheeple for nothing.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Battles (4.00 / 3)

It's shocking, I've had several friends who have been on the recieving end of riot sticks. One of whom got £20,000 after being assulted by the police.

I've always seen the police having to threaten people to keep them from joining in in situations like this, amongst a political group, I've always seen half the police facing out and dealing with the crowd around, the fact that you dont have the police looking out so they are expecting not to be interfered with

That's what I find most scary

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My brain ties this to the "We're going to war with Iran" message. The audience is watching, thinking, making judgements...but the only people acting are "those in control."

I thought about what I'd've done. Maybe stand up and walk to the front, say to Mr. Kerry, "Excuse me, but they seem to be arresting that guy for asking questions."

I dunno. Something. But yeah, "scary" is the word.

I also thought "Solidarity". The lack of, and the results of the lack of.

Turns out the guy is a journalist of some kind. I'm hoping some civil rights lawyer types get onto this. The video evidence is clear. The female officer makes her move and he was supposed to walk out, sorta like bouncers escorting you from a club. "Out on the street you go, sonny!" But he says, "Are you arresting me?"

I was also reminded of Migeru's question:

"What will it take to radicalise the middle classes?"

(Well, it was along those lines)

I also thought of Kent State back in the sixties (apologies if I've mis-remembered), when they took over the offices, the police hauling people out, but...a taser? The sound... And the police following procedure, and feeling that they have obeyed the rules.

HST destroyed a guy's career for behaviour like that--a counter charge, suing for millions of dollars for wrongful arrest, get the police on the back foot...any US lawyers in the house?

And now it reminds me of one of Bernhard's comments a while back:

"The latest thing in Germany is to steal the air from the tires of SUVs and then leave a sticker on the windscreen explaining about environmental damage."

(My paraphrase.)

The point being, "to act or not to act": when they taser a guy for basically banging on too long, that's too late...ach...someone better at expressing themself can hopefully express it better.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Somthing makes me think that they need a course in basic political organisation and resistance.

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Judgments against the police are not at all uncommon in the US. Remember how this is a "lawsuit society?" People are not afraid to sue the cops for harassment.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it wasn't that, more the fact that people weren't in the polices faces there and then giving them grief about interfering with the kid trying to speak. and even more that the police were acting as if they didn't expect to be interfered with.

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Battles (none / 0)

I know what you mean, but this wasn't a protest. An antagonistic crowd is far different than a bunch of people listening to a speech. The group psychology is completely different.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd still expect at least one person to get up and tell the police they were out of order. At the very minimum it should have been Kerry.

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 09:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, Kerry definitely should have, but I'm not surprised that he didn't.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 09:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Battles (4.00 / 4)

"Give me your hungry, your tired, your poor
I'll piss on 'em
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses
Let's club 'em to death
And get it over with
And just dump 'em on the boulevard."

Lou Reed, Dirty Blvd.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 10:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Off topic: I don't think I'll be staying with you tomorrow, but we could get together Thursday afternoon if you're free, as the conference wraps up by 1pm.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tuesday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Last week, a surveillance camera somehow appeared at the very door of the apartment building I live in. I have no idea who might put it there or why.

I always said that I will fight even the first small signs of an emerging "1984 scenario". It coming to my front door is really the point where I had to do something.

So, I just went down and taped it over. Anyone knows how this is regulated by law? Wilful damage to property?

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:36:09 PM EST

Can anyone left standing now come together for a big group hug? Come on, you know you want to.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:17:56 PM EST

I was only superficially involved, but sure why not?

HUGS

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 08:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

where's LEP? Len are you here?

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:21:43 PM EST

This all seems like one of those awful annual family get-togethers at Xmas.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:24:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tuesday Open Thread (4.00 / 6)

Only no one is related (well, mostly) and no one has been drinking since noon. What's our excuse?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the oldest excuse in the world: 'Diff'rent strokes fer diff'rent folks'. None of us see personal reality in the same way as others see it. If they did, I would see it as a sign of a constipated society.

The thing we all still have to work out is: what is collective experience? Can it be shared in any useful way.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A very thoughtful response to my sarcastic remark, Sven. Thanks.

I am beginning to wish I'd begun drinking at noon, however. (Put an order in for one more liver.) Or just stayed in bed all day waiting for Santa... Would have had more luck with that, probably... This non-alcoholic, non-gift exchanging, non-eating too much chocolate type of bickering is a real downer.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Aah, a "4" is all I have to give for Xmas. You can't drink it, but it could possibly be smoked...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:57:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

See, this is just how my day is unfurling... I've had a head cold or allergies all week and can't smoke a thing! Humph.

BTW, bumping your own diary? You're such a badass FPer!!!

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gah, last bit's in the wrong place. Must learn to copy and paste properly.

You'd be a badass FPer too, I'm sure. ;)

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

See now, this would never have happened if you'd been able to smoke the four!

But I agree, with a minor modification; I would probably be both bad and an ass as a FPer ;)

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lol. (tho I beg to differ...)

May try to smoke that thing after all...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But at least then there would be xmas presents and booze (not necessarily mutually exclusive)...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And not necessarily antidotal either ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, if you're passed out, you can't participate in the argument ;-)

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bye Sven, I'll miss you too.

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Take care...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 01:58:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tuesday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

I'm recovering from my first yoga class of the new school year tonight. It was cruel.
Long time no see mmmm.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was teaching the first yoga classes of this cycle. Guess it was a good idea to not go full power, some of the students got lazy over the summer. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hi Fran. I didn't do anything over the summer. Tonight I paid the price.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:45:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LEP, that info is for you only, it's not visible to me.

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hey LEP. I want to sell you a photo of a hug from me, because you may never get to meet me. But I don't have an e-mail address for you, and I don't know where to host a pic.

And then I'm gone with the wind.

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well isn't this strange. I posted the above response to mmmm's post about 30 posts up and I then see there has been a whole theatrical piece in between. Well mmmm, I'm sorry I missed the chance to say hello (unless you reconsider). I do go to the mailbox listed in my personal information, about once a week so if you want to send something there please do. I'll be sorry if you don't come back; you always brought a lot of life to ET.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

there is no mailbox listed.

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Et voila! (none / 1)

Here it is after "LEP."

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um, shout a bit louder, he's probably engrossed with picking his photos for tomorrow's photography blog.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and where have you been? Have you moved/how´s that going?

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._

by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]