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Bush words. Big Scoop.

by kcurie Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:24:19 PM EST

Today El Pais got a big scoop.

El Pais, Spain's largest newspaper, part of a center-left Spanish media Empire (PRISA), has obtained the minutes of a conversation between President Bush and Prime Minister Aznar in February 2003 in Crawford, days before the introduction of the second UN Security Council resolution sponsored by Spain, the UK and the US demanding that Saddam Hussein disarm and which would eventually be withdrawn to avoid an embarrassing defeat. In the resolution there was no mention of possible retaliations if Saddam Hussein failed to comply. Bush and Blair sought a second resolution allowing for the use of force and war if Saddam Hussein did not disarm. Of course, according to them Hussein was openly armed and he would never disarm.

As far as Europeans go, we knew the war was a done deal. I am not sure about Americans. [editor's note, by Migeru I was in the US in 2002/2003 and I was fully aware of what was going on through American media, so I don't think Americans have an excuse]

So it may be useful for Americans to see the minutes. And still I think it is specially relevant to get a transcript because it gives you an idea of the kind of language, narrative and assumptions being used behind the scenes. Did they believe that Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons? It was obvious that Saddam Hussein did not have a nuclear program since that is impossible to hide... but did they believe their own rethoric... did they believe in the UN's role... We more or less know the answer... but you need the language to get an insight. So I have thought that a proper English translation of the Spanish transcript from El Pais is absolutely essential. I also think it may be useful for our American counterparts in the blogosphere...

And you will find that some sentences are pure gold

Follow me below the fold... but I do not provide commentary, that is not the purpose of this diary. I leave that to you :)

[editor's note, by Migeru See also Booman's story on Booman Tribune, with a translation of El Pais' background piece]


"The time has come to get rid of Saddam" "Llegó el momento de deshacerse de Sadam"
PRIMARY SOURCE: MINUTES OF THE CONVERSATION BETWEEN GEORGE W. BUSH AND JOSÉ MARÍA AZNAR, CRAWFORD, TEXAS, 22 FEBRUARY 2003 [Bush and Rice remarks are back-translations from the Spanish version Published by El Pais] TEXTO DE REFERENCIA: ACTA DE LA CONVERSACIÓN ENTRE GEORGE W. BUSH Y JOSÉ MARÍA AZNAR - CRAWFORD, TEJAS, 22 DE FEBRERO DE 2003
President Bush. We advocate obtaining a second resolution in the Security Council and would want to do it quickly. We would like to announce it Monday or Tuesday [24 or 25 of February of 2003]. Presidente Bush. Estamos a favor de conseguir una segunda resolución en el Consejo de Seguridad y querríamos hacerlo rápidamente. Querríamos anunciarla el lunes o el martes [24 o 25 de febrero de 2003].
Prime Minister Aznar. Better on Tuesday, after the meeting of the General Affairs Council of Ministers of the European Union. It is important to maintain [the momentum] obtained with the resolution of the European Union summit [in Brussels, February Monday 17, 2003]. We would prefer to wait until Tuesday. Presidente Aznar. Mejor el martes, después de la reunión del Consejo de Asuntos Generales de la Unión Europea. Es importante mantener el momentum [impulso] conseguido por la resolución de la cumbre de la Unión Europea [en Bruselas, el lunes 17 de febrero]. Nosotros preferiríamos esperar hasta el martes.
PB. It could be Monday evening, considering the time difference. In any case, it will be next week. We envisage a resolution written in such a way that it does not contain compulsory elements, does not mention the use of force, and states that Saddam Hussein has been unable to fulfill his obligations. That type of resolution can be supported by a lot of people. It would be very similar to the one obtained when "the Kosovo thing" [June 10th, 1999]. PB. Podría ser el lunes por la tarde, teniendo en cuenta la diferencia horaria. En cualquier caso la próxima semana. Vemos la resolución redactada de manera que no contenga elementos obligatorios, que no mencione el uso de la fuerza, y que constate que Sadam Hussein ha sido incapaz de cumplir sus obligaciones. Ese tipo de resolución puede ser votada por mucha gente. Sería algo parecida a la que se obtuvo cuando lo de Kosovo [el 10 de junio de 1999].
PMA. Would it be presented to the Security Council before and independently of a parallel declaration? PA. ¿Se presentaría ante el Consejo de Seguridad antes e independientemente de una declaración paralela?
Condoleezza Rice. In fact, there would not be a parallel declaration. We are thinking about a resolution as simple as possible without many details regarding its fulfillment which could be used to allow Saddam Hussein to use them as stages and so fail to fulfill them [editor's note, by Migeru: i.e., if the resolution enumerates conditions, Saddam can stall by fulfilling them one by one]. We are speaking with Blix [head of the UN inspectors] and others from his team to get ideas that can be used to introduce the resolution. Condoleezza Rice. En realidad no habría declaración paralela. Estamos pensando en una resolución tan simple como sea posible sin muchos detalles de cumplimiento que pudieran servir para que Sadam Hussein los utilizara como etapas y consiguientemente incumplirlas. Estamos hablando con Blix [jefe de los inspectores de la ONU] y otros de su equipo para obtener ideas que pueden servir para introducir la resolución.
PB. Saddam Husein will not change and will keep on playing games. The time has come to get rid of him. That's the way it is. For my part, I will try, from now on, to use the most subtle rhetoric possible, while we seel approval of the resolution. If somebody vetoes it [Russia, China and France, alongside the US and UK, have veto power as permanent members of the Security Council], we will go [into Iraq?]. Saddam Hussein is not disarming. We must get him right now. We have shown an incredible degree of patience until now. There are two weeks left. In two weeks' time we will be militarily ready. I believe that we will obtain the second resolution. In the Security Council we have the three Africans [Cameroon, Angola and Guinea], and also the Chileans, the Mexicans. I will speak with all of them, also with Putin, naturally. We will be in Baghdad at the end of March. There is a 15% possibility [sic] that Saddam Hussein will be dead or gone by then. But those possibilities do not exist before we have shown our resolution. The Egyptians are speaking with Saddam Hussein. He seems to have indicated that he would be prepared to go into exile if he were allowed to take one [US] billion dollars and all the information he wanted on weapons of mass destruction. [Muammar] Gadhafi has told Berlusconi that Saddam Hussein wants to leave. Mubarak is telling us that in those circumstances there are many possibilities [sic] of him being assassinated. PB. Sadam Husein no cambiará y seguirá jugando. Ha llegado el momento de deshacerse de él. Es así. Yo, por mi parte, procuraré a partir de ahora utilizar una retórica lo más sutil posible, mientras buscamos la aprobación de la resolución. Si alguien veta [Rusia, China y Francia poseen junto a EE UU y Reino Unido derecho a veto en el Consejo de Seguridad en su calidad de miembros permanentes], nosotros iremos. Sadam Hussein no se está desarmando. Le tenemos que coger ahora mismo. Hemos mostrado un grado increíble de paciencia hasta ahora. Quedan dos semanas. En dos semanas estaremos militarmente listos. Creo que conseguiremos la segunda resolución. En el Consejo de Seguridad tenemos a los tres africanos [Camerún, Angola y Guinea], a los chilenos, a los mexicanos. Hablaré con todos ellos, también con Putin, naturalmente. Estaremos en Bagdad a finales de marzo. Existe un 15% de posibilidades de que en ese momento Sadam Hussein esté muerto o se haya ido. Pero esas posibilidades no existen antes de que hayamos mostrado nuestra resolución. Los egipcios están hablando con Sadam Hussein. Parece que ha indicado que estaría dispuesto a exiliarse si le dejaran llevarse 1.000 millones de dólares y toda la información que quisiera sobre armas de destrucción masiva. [Muammar El] Gaddafi le ha dicho a Berlusconi que Sadam Hussein quiere irse. Mubarak nos dice que en esas circunstancias existen muchas posibilidades de que sea asesinado.
We would like to act with a UN mandate. If we act militarily we will do it with high accuracy and highly focused goals. We will decimate the loyal troops and the regular army will quickly know what it's all about. We have sent a very clear message to Saddam Hussein's generals: we will treat them like war criminals. We know they have accumulated an enormous amount of dynamite to blow up the bridges and other infrastructure and also the oil wells. We expect to occupy those wells soon. The Saudis would also help us bring the oil to market if necessary. We are developing a very strong package of humanitarian aid. We can win without destruction. We are already planning the post-Saddam Iraq, and I believe that is a good basis for a better future. Iraq has a good bureaucracy and a relatively strong civil society. It could be organized into a federation. Meanwhile we are doing everyhting possible to attend to all the political needs of our friends and allies. Nos gustaría actuar con el mandato de las Naciones Unidas. Si actuamos militarmente lo haremos con una gran precisión y focalizando mucho nuestros objetivos. Diezmaremos a las tropas leales y el ejército regular rápidamente sabrá de lo que se trata. Hemos hecho llegar un mensaje muy claro a los generales de Sadam Hussein: los trataremos como criminales de guerra. Sabemos que han acumulado una enorme cantidad de dinamita para hacer volar los puentes y otras infraestructuras y hacer saltar por los aires los pozos petrolíferos. Tenemos previsto ocupar esos pozos muy pronto. También los saudíes nos ayudarían a poner en el mercado el petróleo que fuese necesario. Estamos desarrollando un paquete de ayuda humanitaria muy fuerte. Podemos ganar sin destrucción. Estamos planteando ya el Irak post Sadam, y creo que hay buenas bases para un futuro mejor. Irak tiene una buena burocracia y una sociedad civil relativamente fuerte. Se podría organizar en una federación. Mientras tanto estamos haciendo todo lo posible para atender las necesidades políticas de nuestros amigos y aliados.
PMA. It is very important to have a resolution. It is not the same to act with it tas without it. It would be very good to count on a majority in support of the resolution in the Security Council. In fact, it is more important to have a majority than whether someone vetoes it. [editor's note, by Migeru Is he saying if the resolution only failed because of a vetothey would go ahead anyway and blame the countries that vetoed?] We think that the content of the resolution would have to state, among other things, that Sadam Hussein has missed his chance. PA. Es muy importante contar con una resolución. No es lo mismo actuar con ella que sin ella. Sería muy conveniente contar en el Consejo de Seguridad con una mayoría que apoyara esa resolución. De hecho, es más importante contar con mayoría que que alguien emita un veto. Creemos que el contenido de la resolución debería entre otras cosas constatar que Sadam Hussein ha perdido su oportunidad.
PB. Yes, of course. That would be better than to make a reference to "necessary means" [referring to the typical UN resolution authorising the use of "all necessary means"]. PB. Sí, por supuesto. Sería mejor eso que hacer una referencia a "los medios necesarios" [se refiere a la resolución tipo de la ONU que autoriza a utilizar "todos los medios necesarios"].
PMA. Saddam Hussein has not cooperated, has not disarmed, we would have to make a summary of his breaches and to send a more elaborate message. That would allow for example Mexico to swing [referring to Mexico's opposition to the second resolution, which Aznar heard from Vicente Fox's mouth on Friday the 21st of February during a stop in Mexico City]. PA. Sadam Husein no ha cooperado, no se ha desarmado, deberíamos hacer un resumen de sus incumplimientos y lanzar un mensaje más elaborado. Eso permitiría por ejemplo que México se moviera [en referencia a cambiar su posición contraria a la segunda resolución, que Aznar pudo conocer de labios del presidente Vicente Fox el viernes 21 de febrero en una escala realizada en Ciudad de México].
PB. The resolution will be taylor-made in order to help you. I don't much care about its content. PB. La resolución estará hecha a la medida de lo que pueda ayudarte. Me da un poco lo mismo el contenido.
PMA. We will get some drafts to you. PA. Te haremos llegar unos textos.
PB. We [the US] don't have any drafts. Only a criterion: that Saddam Hussein disarms. We cannot allow Sadam Hussein to stall until the Summer. After all he has already had four months in this last stage and that is more than enough time to disarm. PB. Nosotros no tenemos ningún texto. Solamente un criterio: que Sadam Hussein se desarme. No podemos permitir que Sadam Hussein alargue el tiempo hasta el verano. Al fin y al cabo ya ha tenido cuatro meses en esta última etapa y eso es tiempo más que suficiente para desarmarse.
PMA. That text would help us by allowing us to sponsor it and to be its coauthors and to get a lot of people to sponsor it. PA. Nos ayudaría ese texto para ser capaces de patrocinarlo y ser sus coautores y conseguir que mucha gente lo patrocine.
PB. Perfect. PB. Perfecto.
PMA. Next Wednesday [16th february] I will meet with Chirac. The resolution already will have begun to circulate. PA. El próximo miércoles [16 de febrero] me veo con Chirac. La resolución ya habrá comenzado a circular.
PB. I think that's fine. Chirac knows the reality [of the situation] perfectly. Their intelligence services have explained it to him. The Arabs are transmitting a very clear message to Chirac: Saddam Hussein must go. The problem is that Chirac sees himself as Mister Arab and in fact he is making their life impossible. But I do not want to have any rivalry with Chirac. We have different points of view, but I would like that to be all. Give him my best regards. Really! The less rivalry he feels between us the better for all. PB. Me parece muy bien. Chirac conoce perfectamente la realidad. Sus servicios de inteligencia se lo han explicado. Los árabes le están transmitiendo a Chirac un mensaje muy claro: Sadam Hussein debe irse. El problema es que Chirac se cree Mister Arab y en realidad les está haciendo la vida imposible. Pero yo no quiero tener ninguna rivalidad con Chirac. Tenemos puntos de vista diferentes, pero yo quisiera que eso fuera todo. Dale los mejores recuerdos de mi parte. ¡De verdad! Cuanto menos rivalidad sienta él que existe entre nosotros será mejor para todos.
PMA. How can the resolution be combined with the inspectors' report? PA. ¿Cómo se combina la resolución y el informe de los inspectores?
Condoleezza Rice: There will actually be no report on the 28th of February but the inspectors will present a written report the 1st of March, and their appearance before the Security Council will not take place until the 6th or 7th of March, 2003. We do not expect much from that report. Like in the previous ones, they will play both sides. I have the impression that Blix will now be more negative than before regarding the will of the Iraqis. After the appearance of the inspectors before the Council we must anticipate the vote [of each country] on the resolution the week after. The Iraqis, meanwhile, will try to explain that they are fulfilling their obligations. This neither is true nor will it be sufficient, even if they announce the destruction of some missiles. Condoleezza Rice. En realidad no habrá informe el 28 de febrero sino que los inspectores presentarán un informe escrito el 1 de marzo, y su comparecencia ante el Consejo de Seguridad no se producirá hasta el 6 o 7 de marzo de 2003. No esperamos gran cosa de ese informe. Como en los anteriores, pondrán una de cal y otra de arena. Tengo la impresión de que Blix será ahora más negativo que lo que antes fue sobre la voluntad de los iraquíes. Después de la comparecencia de los inspectores en el Consejo debemos prever el voto sobre la resolución una semana después. Los iraquíes, entre tanto, intentarán explicar que van cumpliendo sus obligaciones. Ni es cierto ni será suficiente, aunque anuncien la destrucción de algunos misiles.
PB. This is like Chinese water torture. We must end it. PB. Esto es como la tortura china del agua. Tenemos que poner fin a ello.
PMA. I agree, but it would be good to count on the maximum number of people possible. Have a little patience. PA. Estoy de acuerdo, pero sería bueno contar con el máximo número de gente posible. Ten un poco de paciencia.
PB. My patience is exhausted. I don't intend to go beyond mid-March. PB. Mi paciencia está agotada. No pienso ir más allá de la mitad de marzo.
PA. I am not asking you to have an infinite patience. Simply that you do what you can for everything to fit. PA. No te pido que tengas una paciencia infinita. Simplemente que hagas lo posible para que todo cuadre.
PB. Countries like Mexico, Chile, Angola and Cameroon must know that what's at stake is the security of the US and act with a sense of friendship towards us. PB. Países como México, Chile, Angola y Camerún deben saber que lo que está en juego es la seguridad de los EE UU y actuar con un sentido de amistad hacia nosotros.
[Chilean President Ricardo] Lagos must know that the Free Trade Agreement with Chile is pending confirmation in the Senate and that a negative attitude in this matter could endanger it. Angola is receiving funds from the Millenium Account and those could also be in jeopardy if they do not show a positive attitude. And Putin must know that with his attitude he is putting in danger the relations of Russia with the United States. [El presidente Ricardo] Lagos debe saber que el Acuerdo de Libre Comercio con Chile está pendiente de confirmación en el Senado y que una actitud negativa en este tema podría poner en peligro esa ratificación. Angola está recibiendo fondos del Millenium Account y también podrían quedar comprometidos si no se muestran positivos. Y Putin debe saber que con su actitud está poniendo en peligro las relaciones de Rusia con los Estados Unidos.
PMA. Tony would like to get to the 14th of March. PA. Tony querría llegar hasta el 14 de marzo.
PB. I prefer the 10th. This is like a good cop, bad cop routine. It doesn't matter to me if I'm the bad cop and Blair is the good cop. PB. Yo prefiero el 10. Esto es como el juego de policía malo y policía bueno. A mí no me importa ser el policía malo y que Blair sea el bueno.
PA. Is it true that there is a chance Saddam Hussein will go into exile? PA. ¿Es cierto que existe alguna posibilidad de que Sadam Hussein se exilie?
PB. Yes, that possibility exists. Even of him being assassinated. PB. Sí, existe esa posibilidad. Incluso de que sea asesinado.
PA. Exile with some guarantees? PA. ¿Exilio con alguna garantía?
PB. No guarantee. He is a thief, a terrorist, a war criminal. Compared with Saddam, Milosevic would be Mother Teresa. When we go in we are going to discover many more crimes and we will take him to the International Court of Justice in The Hague. Saddam Hussein thinks that he has already gotten away. He thinks that France and Germany have stopped the trial for [the crimes he's responsible for]. He also believes that last week's demonstrations [Saturday February 15] protect him. And he thinks that I am very weakened. But the people around him know that things are different. They know that his future is in exile or in a coffin. For that reason it is so important to keep up the pressure on him. Gadhafi is telling us indirectly that this is the thin that can finish him. The only strategy of Saddam Hussein is to delay, delay and delay. PB. Ninguna garantía. Es un ladrón, un terrorista, un criminal de guerra. Comparado con Sadam, Milosevic sería una Madre Teresa. Cuando entremos vamos a descubrir muchos más crímenes y le llevaremos al Tribunal Internacional de Justicia de La Haya. Sadam Hussein cree que ya se ha escapado. Cree que Francia y Alemania han detenido el proceso de sus responsabilidades. Cree también que las manifestaciones de la semana pasada [sábado 15 de febrero] le protegen. Y cree que yo estoy muy debilitado. Pero la gente de su entorno sabe que las cosas son de otra manera. Saben que su futuro está en el exilio o en un ataúd. Por eso es tan importante mantener la presión sobre él. Gaddafi nos dice indirectamente que eso es lo único que puede acabar con él. La única estrategia de Sadam Hussein es la de retrasar, retrasar y retrasar.
PA. In fact the greatest success would be to win the game without firing a single shot, and going into Bagdad. PA. En realidad el mayor éxito sería ganar la partida sin disparar un solo tiro y entrando en Bagdad.
PB. For me it would be the perfect solution. I do not want the war. I know what wars are. I know the destruction and the death that bring with them. I am the one that has to comfort the mothers and widows of the dead. By all means, for us that would be the best solution. In addition, it would save us 50 [US] billion dollars. PB. Para mí sería la solución perfecta. Yo no quiero la guerra. Sé lo que son las guerras. Sé la destrucción y la muerte que traen consigo. Yo soy el que tiene que consolar a las madres y a las viudas de los muertos. Por supuesto, para nosotros esa sería la mejor solución. Además, nos ahorraría 50.000 millones de dólares.
PA. We needed your help with our public opinion. PA. Necesitamos que nos ayudéis con nuestra opinión pública.
PB. We will do everything we can. Wednesday I am going to speak about the situation in the Middle East, proposing a new peace scheme, which you already know, and about weapons of mass destruction, of the benefits of a free society, and will put the history of Iraq in a broader context. Maybe this will be useful to you. PB. Haremos todo lo que podamos. El miércoles voy a hablar sobre la situación en el Oriente Medio, proponiendo un nuevo esquema de paz que conoces y sobre las armas de destrucción masiva, de los beneficios de una sociedad libre, y situaré la historia de Irak en un contexto más amplio. Quizá os sirva.
PA. What we are doing is a very deep change for Spain and Spaniards. We are changing the policy that our country has followed for the last 200 years. PA. Lo que estamos haciendo es un cambio muy profundo para España y para los españoles. Estamos cambiando la política que el país había seguido en los últimos 200 años.
PB. I am guided by a sense of historical responsibility [editor's note, by Migeru the Spanish says "a historical sense of duty" but that might be a mistranslation given the phrasing of the following sentence]. When some years from now History judges us I do not want people to wonder why Bush, or Aznar, or Blair did not face their responsibilities. In the end, what people want is to enjoy freedom. Recently, in Romania, I was reminded of the example of Ceausescu: it was enough for one woman to call him a liar for all the repressive edifice to crumble. It is the uncontrollable power of freedom. I am convinced that I will obtain the resolution. PB. A mí me guía un sentido histórico de la responsabilidad igual que a ti. Cuando dentro de unos años la Historia nos juzgue no quiero que la gente se pregunte por qué Bush, o Aznar, o Blair no hicieron frente a sus responsabilidades. Al final, lo que la gente quiere es gozar de libertad. Hace poco, en Rumania me recordaban el ejemplo de Ceausescu: bastó con que una mujer le llamara mentiroso para que todo el edificio represivo se viniera abajo. Es el poder incontenible de la libertad. Estoy convencido de que conseguiré la resolución.
PA. So much the better. PA. Mejor que mejor.
PB. It was I that took the decision to go to the Security Council. Despite the disagreements within my Administration, I told my people that we had to work with our friends. It will be wonderful to count with a second resolution. PB. Yo tomé la decisión de ir al Consejo de Seguridad. A pesar de las divergencias en mi Administración, les dije a mi gente que teníamos que trabajar con nuestros amigos. Será estupendo contar con una segunda resolución.
PA. The only thing which worries me about you is your optimism. PA. Lo único que me preocupa de ti es tu optimismo.
PB. I am optimistic because I think I am right. I am at peace with myself. It is our lot to face up to a serious threat against peace. It really irritates me to contemplate the insensitivity of Europeans for the suffering that Saddam Hussein inflicts on the Iraqis. Perhaps it is because he is brown, far away and Muslim, many Europeans think there's no problem with him. I will not forget what once Solana told me: that this is why the Americans think that Europeans are anti-semitic and incapable of facing up to their responsibilities. That defensive attitude is terrible. I must admit that with Kofi Annan I have great relations. PB. Estoy optimista porque creo que estoy en lo cierto. Estoy en paz conmigo mismo. Nos ha correspondido hacer frente a una seria amenaza contra la paz. Me irrita muchísimo contemplar la insensibilidad de los europeos sobre los sufrimientos que Sadam Hussein inflige a los iraquíes. Quizá porque es moreno, lejano y musulmán, muchos europeos piensan que todo está bien con él. No olvidaré lo que me dijo una vez Solana: que por qué los americanos pensamos que los europeos son antisemitas e incapaces de hacer frente a sus responsabilidades. Esa actitud defensiva es terrible. Tengo que reconocer que con Kofi Annan tengo unas magníficas relaciones.
PA. He shares your ethical concerns. PA. Comparte tus preocupaciones éticas.
PB. The more the Europeans attack me the stronger I am in the United States. PB. Cuanto más me atacan los europeos tanto más fuerte soy en los Estados Unidos.
PA. We would have to make your strength compatible with the appreciation of the Europeans. PA. Tendríamos que hacer compatible tu fortaleza con el aprecio de los europeos.
END TRANSCIPTION END TRANSCRIPT

Copyright issues: according to El País the minutes were taken by Javier Rupérez, Spain's Ambassador to the US, who also acted as Aznar's interpreter and interpreted Berlusconi into English during a 4-way conference call involving also Blair. This means Aznar's Spanish is original and our rendering of Bush and Condi is a back-translation from English. It also means that the Spanish text published by El País is a Spanish Government document and not a translation from English that El País would own... we am not using the background article El Pais wrote (see Booman's story for that) but the transcript they provide as a "source document"... can the trasncript be translated freely?... Is it fair use since it is only a part of the news?. Or is the transcript copyrighted, and if so by whom? We do not know what to do... We basically translate it here in full... but the original transcript is in the El País server for free in Spanish as a part of a broader news analysis that I also provide but do not use.. so visit them... [editor's note, by Migeru As a frontpager I take responsibility for quoting the entire Spanish transcript and producing our own translation. IANAL, and all that, but Spanish law is not as clear as US law that all government-produced documents are in the public domain]

Display:
thanks for the translation, Migeru

My humble blog - featuring Friday Basset Blogging
by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:39:37 PM EST
Ack!  Also thanks to kcurie, sorry about that.

My humble blog - featuring Friday Basset Blogging
by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Spanish version is at least partly a translation from English to Spanish (Aznar's words might be original in Spanish or back-translated from English), and the English version is (at least in the case of Bush) kcurie's back-translation to English. I am in the process of polishing the English for wider diffusion (at least Booman's and DKos).

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great work, kcurie and Migeru!

Have you got this open now for editing? If so, can you deal with the long URL at the top that explodes the columns?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Done.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I've read through, there are a lot of places where I think I could clean up/improve the English. I could list them in a comment or make the changes myself, if you and kcurie trust me.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you go in and make the changes?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the El Pais news story the minutes were kept y Javier Ruipérez, Spanish Ambassador in the US. One can therefore assume the Spanish is Aznar's and Bush's and Condi's English in our version is a back-translation.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can post it to the front page of DocuDharma if you want. I know I can post it under my name, I think I can promote your diary if you post it over there.

I can post it on dK tomorrow if you want me to.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:12:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It should be posted tonight. It is after all a sc00p, and wont remain so for long... If the diary goes nowhere, you can always re-diary it later.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:15:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually read about it in Le Monde this morning before seeing it in the Salon, where I had intended to put a link, but saw that Fran already had.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
N000000000000000!!!!!!!! T00 sl000000000000w.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Feel free to cross-post this. As a FPer you have access to the source code.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
J ej je.. yepa.... :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:49:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iraq has a good bureaucracy and a relatively strong civil society. It would be possible to be organized in a federation. Meanwhile we are doing evryhting in our hands to help/accomodate all the political needs of our friends and allies.

So already ahead of time he was planning to break Iraq up in the way that has been suggested  as a last resort in the last few weeks as a result of the current fighting. Interesting....

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:47:28 PM EST
I do not care being the bad cop, would be better with about in the middle

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:17:57 PM EST
oh and

to solace the mothers and the widows of the deads

now I know his pronunciations rubbish but deads?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Points taken..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have used the "about"... although I am not sure which sounds better.. probably the about..

Regardign deads.. the proper trnslation is deceased.. given the serious connotation that "nuestros muertos" has in spanish...

Thanks for the input...!!!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just worried about other people inserting mentally the word for instead and messing up the meaning entirely, then the discussion descending into an argument between bearers of the one true translation caused by the slight gap of meaning in the text.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:53:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gret changes by Migeru... a lot of improvement in some sentences which ar enow more accureltey translated...

Still not found a proper translation for "una de cal y otra de arena" (which is what Bush And Rice expectecd from the Blix report)... there is probably not a exact sentence but there might be a saying which is close enought to it.... but the ones I think are not close enough for my taste...

I hope my note clarifies it enough though...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:51:31 PM EST
I'm not even halfway done... This is a lot of work.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:54:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Huge amount..it took me more than two hours to do the first draft....

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, forget what I said above.

Are suggestions useful? Here or by email?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:05:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be possible to be organized in a federation.

It could be organized as a federation.

The Iraqians, meanwhile, will try to explain that they are fulfilling his obligations.

Meanwhile the Iraqis will try to explain they are fulfilling their obligations.

Neither it is true nor it will be sufficient,

That's not true and it won't be enough,

PA. I do not request you an infinite patience. Simply that you do as much as you can so that everything fits.

PA. I'm not asking you to have infinite patience. Simply that you do all you can to make things fall properly into place.

the Agreement of Free Commerce with Chile is pending of confirmation in the Senate and that a negative attitude in this subject could put it in jeopardy.

the Free Trade Agreement with Chile is pending confirmation in the Senate, and a negative attitude about this matter could endanger it.

I do not care being the bad cop and let  Blair be the good one.

It doesn't bother me if I'm the bad cop and Blair is the good one.

to state that Sadam Hussein has lost its opportunity

to say Saddam Hussein has wasted his last chance

que pudieran servir para que Sadam Hussein los utilizara como etapas y consiguientemente incumplirlas
=>
that could be turned to the purpose of giving Saddam Hussein steps to take that he will of course fail to do

That would allow for example that Mexico moved.

That would allow for a change in Mexico's position.

Sadam Husein has not cooperated, has not been disarmed, we would have to make a summary of its breaches

Saddam Hussein has not cooperated, has not disarmed, we would have to list his breaches

PB. The resolution will be such that it will help you. I really do not care about the content.

The resolution will be built with the intention of helping you. I'm really not concerned about its content.

PA. We will make you get our texts.
PB. We do not have any text.

PA. We'll send you some drafts.
PB. We don't have a draft at all.

PB. It fits me. Chirac knows the reality perfectly. Their intelligence services have explained it. The Arabs are transmitting  Chirac a very clear message: Sadam Hussein must go away.

PB. Suits me. Chirac knows what's going on. Their intelligence services have explained it to him. The Arabs are sending Chirac a very clear message: Saddam Hussein must go.

Condoleezza Rice: In fact there will be no inform on the 28th of February

inform => information

PA. Is true that there is a chance that Sadam Hussein moves away?

PA. Is it true there's a chance Saddam Hussein will go into exile?

He thinks that France and Germany have stopped the process of their responsibilities. He also beliefs that the demonstrations of last week [Saturday 15 of February] protects him.

He thinks France and Germany have stopped the trial of everything he's responsible for. He also believes that last week's demonstrations (Saturday February 15) protect him.

PA. In fact the biggest success would be to gain the game without shooting a single shot and entering Bagdad.

In fact the greatest success would be to win the game without firing a single shot, and get into Bagdad.

the mothers and the widows of the deads.

the mothers and widows of the dead.

:: :: :: :: ::

(I hope they're in the right order...)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I made some similar changes to some of the first things you suggest.

I'm off for about 30 minutes now. Would you mind going in (as a FPer you can) and making further edits?

I've gone all the way down to "This is like Chinese Water Torture".

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK. Will sign off here when I've finished so you know I haven't got it open.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm out of there. I went through to the end. You and kc may want to go back over what I did, or change other things.

Yes, some surprisingly unsurprising things in there.

Note that Bush says History will judge them. Apparently he wasn't playing the Apocalyptic Bogeyman with Aznar!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, afew.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently he wasn't playing the Apocalyptic Bogeyman with Aznar!

It's almost like he's deliberately trying to splinter Europe, or went out to deliberately antagonise the French so that their oil companies lost out in the carve-up of the oil wealth. Didn't the French have a lot of the exploration and production contracts? and if they joined in it would be hard to transfer them over to US companies.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:17:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Be careful afew.. most of them are excellent points.. but some of them are not at all clear..

Three of them I notice as nopt good changes

It isnot at all clear that they say Mexico would change mind.. "move" is neither clear cut in spanish.. as move is not clear in english.. so I am not sure I would change it..Mexico move has the proper indefinition of the original

The same goes with the "I do nto care" o...." it does not bother"..is too formal... I would say the spanish attitude would be more like " I do not care".

The "dead" has already been translated as deceised....as it was probably refered in a formal way..

But the most importan one I do not agree is the one about "y conseguientemente incumplirlas".. your translation tries to give a meaning to something that it is not there.... He may have wanted to mean this.. but that's is not what is written .. in spanish there is a way to say your sentence...  and that is not the case. So I guess either it was a bad transcription.. or really you always make mistakes when you speak...

Regardign the rest.. brilliant changes..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just suggestions, kc!!

I can see the y conseguientemente incumplirlas is much better explained by Migeru now, and my attempt at understanding it was wrong.

Migeru has put "swing" for Mexico, which was my meaning (in the light of the explanation in brackets).

The point about the "dead" is that it doesn't take an s for the plural in English (neither does "the deceased" - but in this context the proper term is "the dead".)

"It doesn't bother me..." is not formal.

But as you wish, jefe!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh sure!! I love you.. you know it.. je je

yeah yeah.. I knew it was suggestion.. I was saying in a hurry that you should take extra vigilance on those...you know I was going to the point.. but of course.. your comments are brilliant.. very good ones.. so it may have seem a serious post... it was not..

I am still doubtful about it does nto bother or it does not care...:)

You make me doubt now about the dead or the deceised... I do not know if in english the dead can have a very serious super serious meaning..  I do nto know enough english for that.. but I do know deceased is super serious...

I see Migeru swing... mmmhhh.... swing is much more clear cut in english than "mover" is in spanish. But probably "move" in english is also less clear than "mover" in spanish.. So it is a difficult option...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The dead" is the correct term in warfare, and is super serious. "The deceased" is more civilian -- undertaker language! ;)

I put "it doesn't matter to me" for no me importa.
I think that's as close as you can get...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely so!!!

Thanks a lot!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 04:44:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to say Saddam Hussein has wasted his last chance

to say Saddam Hussein has missed his last chance

inform => information

ES informe = EN report

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We do not expect anything  great from that report. Like in the previous ones, they will put "UNA DE CAL OTRA DE ARENA") (Phrasal sentence meaning different and often contradictory statement in a report. It also means a report which is not clear-cut. Multiple different meaning depending on context. I do not know a completely equivalent english phrase)

We do not expect anything great from that report. Like the previous ones, it will be ambiguous.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or "Like the previous ones, this one will also try to please everybody"?
by polderjongen on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 05:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that is the meaning. But the idiom literally means [alternately shoveling] a [load] of lime and a [load] of sand.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 05:23:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Welcome to the cooperative world of European Tribune,  polderjongen!

Hope to see around for more comments and diaries...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 06:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you. I hope I will be able to contribute more.
by polderjongen on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 12:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The war is on!

The U.S. senate has just passed the Lieberman-Kyl amendment giving Bush the go-ahead for war with Iran.  

Although some of the language of the passed amendment was toned down, the effect will be the same: a green light for Bush to start the war.

So, will France participate?  Who wants to join the new "coalition of the willing"?  Onward Christian soldiers and all that BS.

(Now it makes sense that Bush has asked Congress for almost $200 billion of the war -- more than the year before.  They need money for a third war.)

by numediaman on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:51:46 PM EST
Can you diary it?

The House has also passed a resolution condemning the MoveOn ad against Petraeus.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:53:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm quite sure the Move-On vote will get bigger coverage than the Iran vote.  The press has gotten very good and building up minor stories to avoid having to report the real news.  

A recent "American Pulse Survey" by BIGresearch (dated 9-26-07, I guess that makes it VERY recent), questioned Americans about who they "trust".

The President came in at 14.2% -- which was good.  Members of Congress came in at 2.6%, the press at 4.4% and bloggers at 5.8%.

My point: we've reached a point in time in America where the American people do not trust anyone -- inside or outside of government -- but are obviously comfortable with the situation.  Another war will make the netroots go crazy, but will have little impact on American opinion and people's actions.

By the way, another finding: 93% believe there are problems with the U.S. Health Care system (the other 7% died before answering the question).

You can find the survey here: http://www.centerformediaresearch.com/cfmr_brief.cfm?fnl=070926

by numediaman on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah and most of the democrats went along with it, inlcuding Hilary and Obama didn't vote! What an outlook to the future.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:56:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Le Canard Enchainé (a VERY reliable investigative weekly) says that French services have been made aware that Putin has apparently warned the Iranians to expect an attack near the end of this year (between then end of the ramadan and the beginning of 2008).

A lot of military activity seems to be going on, with Russia providing brand new anti-aerial missiles and defense systems, as well as small patrol boats and anti-ship missiles for the Persian Gulf, and the US providing bunker busters to Israel.

Le Canard notes that the French military have observed training runs by Israeli airplanes with US air support, and that they are beign told by their US counterpart that Iran is currently under massive spy satellite observation.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:14:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That "long run" in your sig line just keeps getting shorter and shorter...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jesus.  I would not have believed it.  But Einstein was right:  Zwei Dinge sind unendlich: Das Universum und die menschliche Dummheit. Aber beim Universum bin ich mir noch nicht sicher.

Statistical thinking will one day be as necessary for efficient citizenship as the ability to read or write.
by marco on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i am greedy, but is there anyway you could transcribe any key parts of that Canard article?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stratfor - yes, I know, they have predicted 10 out of last 2 wars, including the one Iran would start with Turkmenistan in order to get to its gas reserves - has published a situation report titled Red October: Russia, Iran and Iraq. The report is behind subscription wall, but some of the quotes are below:

The course of the war in Iraq appears to be set for the next year. Of the four options we laid out a few weeks ago, the Bush administration essentially has selected a course between the first and second options -- maintaining the current mission and force level or retaining the mission but gradually reducing the force. The mission -- creating a stable, pro-American government in Baghdad that can assume the role of ensuring security -- remains intact.
......
The Achilles' heel of the strategy is the fact that it includes the window of vulnerability that we discussed a few weeks ago. The strategy and mission outlined by Petraeus commits virtually all U.S. ground forces to Iraq, with Afghanistan and South Korea soaking up the rest. It leaves air and naval power available, but it does not allow the United States to deal with any other crisis that involves the significant threat of ground intervention. This has consequences.
.......
Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki attended a meeting of the Iranian-Russian Joint Economic Commission in Moscow over the weekend. While in the Russian capital, Mottaki also met with Russian Atomic Energy Chief Sergei Kiriyenko to discuss Russian assistance in completing the Bushehr nuclear power plant. After the meeting, Mottaki said Russian officials had assured him of their commitment to complete the power plant. ... While the truth of Russian assurances is questionable -- Moscow has been mere weeks away from making Bushehr operational for the better part of the last three years, and is about as excited about a nuclear-armed Iran as is Washington -- the fact remains that Russian-Iranian cooperation continues to be substantial, and public.

Mottaki also confirmed -- and this is significant -- that Russian President Vladimir Putin would visit Tehran on Oct. 16. The occasion is a meeting of the Caspian Sea littoral nations, a group that comprises Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan. According to the Iranians, Putin agreed not only to attend the conference, but also to use the visit to confer with top Iranian leaders.

This is about the last thing the United States wanted the Russians to do -- and therefore the first thing the Russians did. ... From the Russian point of view, the Americans are tied down in an extended conflict that sucks up resources and strategic bandwidth in Washington. ... The Russians see the Americans as trying to thwart their ambitions throughout their periphery, through support for anti-Russian elements via U.S. intelligence.
......
If the United States plans to stay in Iraq until the end of the Bush presidency, then the United States badly needs something from the Russians -- that they not provide arms, particularly air-defense systems, to the Syrians and especially the Iranians. The Americans need the Russians not to provide fighter aircraft, modern command-and-control systems or any of the other war-making systems that the Russians have been developing. Above all else, they want the Russians not to provide the Iranians any nuclear-linked technology.
.......
The Russians have no interest in seeing Iran devastated by the United States. They want Iran to do just what it is doing -- tying down U.S. forces in Iraq and providing a strategic quagmire for the Americans. And they are aware that they have technologies that would make an extended air campaign against Iran much more costly than it would be otherwise. ... without a U.S. ground force..., the Russians might be able to create a situation in which suppression of enemy air defenses ... would be costly, and in which ... battle against infrastructure ... could become a war of attrition.

The Russians would happily supply the Iranians with whatever weapons systems they could use in order to bleed the United States a bit more, as long as they are reasonably confident that those systems would not be pointed north any time soon.

The Russians are just as prepared to let the United States have a free hand against Iran and not pose any challenges while U.S. forces are tied down in Iraq. But there is a price and it will be high. ... the Russians will want the following:

In the Caucasus, they want the United States to withdraw support for Georgia and force the Georgian government to reach an accommodation with Moscow. ...

In Ukraine and Belarus, the Russians will expect an end to all U.S. support to nongovernmental organizations agitating for a pro-Western course.

In the Baltics, the Russians will expect the United States to curb anti-Russian sentiment and to explicitly limit the Baltics' role in NATO, excluding the presence of foreign troops, particularly Polish.

Regarding Serbia, they want an end to any discussion of an independent Kosovo.

The Russians also will want plans abandoned for an anti-ballistic-missile system that deploys missiles in Poland.
......

This is Putin's moment and he can exploit it in one of two ways: He can reach a quiet accommodation with the Americans, and leave the Iranians hanging. Conversely, he can align with the Iranians and place the United States in a far more complex situation than it otherwise would be in. He could achieve this by supporting Syria, arming militias in Lebanon or even causing significant problems in Afghanistan, where Russia retains a degree of influence in the North.

The Russians are chess players and geopoliticians. In chess and geopolitics, the game is routine and then, suddenly, there is an opening. You seize the opening because you might never get another one. The United States is inherently more powerful than Russia, save at this particular moment. Because of a series of choices the United States has made, it is weaker in the places that matter to Russia. Russia will not be in this position in two or three years. It needs to act now.

.......

If the United States takes out Iran's nuclear weapons, the Russians will sympathize and arm the Iranians even more intensely.
...
Or the United States can quietly give Putin the sphere of influence he wants, letting down allies in the former Soviet Union, in return for which the Russians will let the Iranians stand alone against the Americans, not give arms to Middle Eastern countries, not ship Iran weapons that will wind up with militias in Iraq. In effect, Putin is giving the United States a month to let him know what it has in mind.

......

Petraeus' area of operations is Iraq. He may well have crafted a viable plan for stabilizing Iraq over the next few years. But the price to be paid for that is not in Iraq or even in Iran. It is in leaving the door wide open in other areas of the world. We believe the Russians are about to walk through one of those doors. The question in the White House, therefore, must be: How much is Iraq worth? Is it worth recreating the geopolitical foundations of the Soviet Union?

by Sargon on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Sargon.

Off Topic: on the issue of finance jobs in CZ, do you really have any leads?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 08:00:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What level of a job are you qualified for (and looking at) - kind of analyst or a middle-level management?
by Sargon on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 08:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kind of analyst.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 08:34:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Achilles' heel of the strategy is the fact that it includes the window of vulnerability that we discussed a few weeks ago. The strategy and mission outlined by Petraeus commits virtually all U.S. ground forces to Iraq, with Afghanistan and South Korea soaking up the rest. It leaves air and naval power available, but it does not allow the United States to deal with any other crisis that involves the significant threat of ground intervention. This has consequences.
The immediate question is what are the US troops doing in South Korea?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 08:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
because the Korean war isn't over, there has never been a peace treaty and the US is one of the Guarantors of the Armistice currently in place.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 09:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Got a link on this?
by Lasthorseman on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Daily Kos: BREAKING: Lieberman-Kyl's Iran amendment passes in the Senate by KingOneEye on September 26, 2007

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:51:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apocalyptic horse to tack up!
by Lasthorseman on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whatever rocks your boat.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is just ridiculous.

Are Americans now ready to get serious and start risking jail-time for civil disobedience en masse?

We're getting to one of those historical moments when later generations -- should they be around -- look back and ask us, "So what did you do when your country [was involved in some heinous activity]?"

Statistical thinking will one day be as necessary for efficient citizenship as the ability to read or write.

by marco on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:35:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So what was Gore thinking when he asked Lieberman to be his running mate?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gore's 2000 campaign was organized around winning Florida. Earlier in 2000 he made what seemed like a surprising statement in favor of keeping Elian Gonzales in the US (he was the young boy whose mother took him across the Florida Strait in a raft and who became a cause celebre among the Miami Cuban community). The choice of Lieberman also struck me as being calculated to win Florida by locking up the votes of Jewish residents who retired there from New York.

That's one reason why the two campaigns fought so hard over Florida in the weeks after the election - both sides had seen it as the key to victory.

Which of course makes all the more ironic Lieberman's role in undercutting the Gore campaign by arguing against challenging the questionable overseas military votes.

And the world will live as one

by Montereyan (robert at calitics dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"WIN! WIN! WIN! (integrity) WIN! WIN!"

Something like that?

(I know what you mean, just being needlessly sarcastic. My way of getting through the day.)


-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 05:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Neocon godfather Norman Podhoretz on "World War IV"

Or Podhoretz on Iran in a nutshell:


Q: What kind of international fallout can we expect from such a campaign?

PODHORETZ: Well, if we were to bomb the Iranians as I hope and pray we will, we'll unleash a wave of anti-Americanism all over the world that will make the anti-Americanism we've experienced so far look like a lovefest. On the other hand -- that's a worst case scenario, and worst case scenarios don't always materialize. It's entirely possible that many countries, particularly in the Middle East -- the Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, who are very worried about Iranian influence and power -- would at least secretly applaud us. And I think it's possible that other countries in Europe, for example, and elsewhere, would be relieved to see the Iranians entirely deprived of the capability to build nuclear weapons, or at least have that ability retarded for five or 10 years or more.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:45:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...we'll unleash a wave of anti-Americanism all over the world that will make the anti-Americanism we've experienced so far look like a lovefest. On the other hand -- that's a worst case scenario, and worst case scenarios don't always materialize. It's entirely possible that many countries, particularly in the Middle East -- the Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, who are very worried about Iranian influence and power -- would at least secretly applaud us
And getting te support of Europe and the Arab World for bombing Iran would be really bad because...? And a wave of Anti-americanism would be very good because...?

Because anti-americanism would rally the faithful and people would enlist en masse to be Bush's storm troopers and would support a drive for open global war?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 01:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WTF?

No wait, just "F!".

-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 05:13:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for the translation.  Excellent work.

After consulting with my husband, I´d like to suggest ¨neither here nor there¨, for uno de cal, uno de arena.  Originally I thought of ¨one step forward, one step back¨, but that´s really used in reference to an action.

I´d be glad to help with translation efforts like this in the future, if you need a hand.

Saludos from Madrid.

by Coco on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:21:22 PM EST
I chose "playing both sides" because it is a more active idiom than [standing] neither here northere.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:35:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chief among my suspicions is that Bush is too lucid for them to be authentic.

I also wonder what is seen as new here with these 'minutes' for them to be a scoop. What am I missing?

by Magnifico on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:50:26 PM EST
Maybe the minute-taker wrote what Bush meant, not what he said. Consider that it is really a translation into Spanish of what Bush said in English by two professional interpreters, and our back-translation.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also want to note for the record that Bush in the past has claimed that he can speak Spanish.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That said, I also have long believed that Bush's whole folksy-tongue-tied-bumpkin thing is a crude and cynical act.  Video of him from his father's term in office shows that he did once know how to speak with some lucidity, even if it wasn't with actual intelligence.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though recently Vicente Fox said Bush's Spanish was at grade-school level.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I could tell that from having heard him speak just a few sentences during the 2000 campaign.  His accent is gawdawful.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
his English is at grade-school level, too.

My humble blog - featuring Friday Basset Blogging
by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So Dubya was really as stupid as to believe his own propaganda. While Aznar shows up with weak attempts to civilise him. The whopper quote for me:

PA. The only thing which worries me about you is your optimism.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:24:30 PM EST
What amazed me in reading this translation is that Bush seems to be well aware of the facts and the players involved. To me he seems cunning. The whole "country bumpkin" thing is really an act, isn't it?
And Aznar seems to be shitting in his pants when he realizes Bush is really serious about going to war; a very normal reaction I might add.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:37:36 PM EST
He always was very well informed and he is very cunning. No doubt but incompetence which is trademark of his presidency stems from delusion suffered by all dictators and people with totalitarian ideology be it compassionate conservatism or liberalism. He is out of touch with ground realities and continue to fool himself.
by FarEasterner on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 01:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's not forget, with all the translation details, that what's transpiring here is the fact that the war was planned, regardless of the facts on the ground.  This is stronger than the Downing Street minutes that the facts were being fixed around the whatever.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:58:20 PM EST
The Downing Street Papers did not involve any US officials but only UK officials' representations of their interactions with US officials. This is stronger because it is an actual conversation between Bush, Condi and Aznar. We don't have the equivalent for UK/US contacts, only UK officials' account of same.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's just why i said this was stronger.  More importantly, this gives evidence to the progressive meme trying to break through the lies.  Here, it's plain as day.  If i was murdoch, (and i am), tomorrow's papers would all say:  "BUSH NAKED," page three.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Call me cynical - no, really - but is anyone interested any more?

Isn't it obvious the war was planned, prosecuted on the basis of lies, managed disastrously, and has become a total failure in every possible way (except human sacrifice and corporate profit)?

The only possible place where this could get leverage would be in the US.

Considering that the Downing Street memo disappeared with barely a ripple, I'm not seeing how this is going to change anyone's mind about anything - except possibly as a document of historical interest.

Bush lies. He causes people to die. He hands over government money to corporate cronies. He believes mad things.

That's who he is and what he does, and he's absolutely consistent about it.

Yet more evidence to prove this fact is interesting, but there's already a steaming great mountain of it.

The people who should care, clearly don't. And they already know the facts. So I don't think they're likely to have a road-to-Damascus experience because of something like this.

What could be interesting is to collect all of the facts together into a book and publish it in the US. It probably still wouldn't make any difference, but it would be useful and interesting to have as much of the story as is on the record collected in one place, joining the dots together.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:46:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My own reaction to the news in yesterday's Salon (brought over by Fran from TPM) was indeed "ho hum". But in the evening kcurie said this was becoming big in the US blogosphere and we should provide a bilingual version, so we did. Which is consistent with your
The only possible place where this could get leverage would be in the US.


We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:50:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm not saying it's a bad idea in any way - just that I'll be pleasantly surprised if it has any lasting effect on the narrative over there.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 10:04:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely.. the only place when this could have an impact is in the US...more than some gold sentences.. like "having the africans.." or the specific threats.... to Chile...

And the good cop, bad cop...
ANd the exile details.. and the way it refers to Chirac...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 10:05:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with Kcurie when he says that it's the words that  are important. It's  thing to know the ideas in place... but it's another to realize that in one's mouth they also reveal megalomaniac tendencies. It seems to me that bush here is talking to himself, repeating something he's said thousand of times. Does Rice contribute to his rant? no, and most probably because she's heard it all...
So it's because it's said, because Aznar doesn't even seem to know why he's going there, because it feels like even if one of us had been in the room she would have been so flabbergasted that she would sat there silently trying to make sense of the basis of such a conversation... and there is none.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 10:07:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Copyright issues regarding transcription are not clear to me.. I am not using the article El Pais writes but the transcript they provide.. can the trasncript be translated freely?.. Is it fair use since it is only a  part of the news?. Or is the transcript copyrighted??

IANAL, but here is my take on it:

If the transcript is a fictional saga made up by a writer, then it is protected by the authors copyright (probably then sold to El Pais). As the text claims not be fictional but a transcript, it is reasonable to act accordingly. A transcript of a conversation is generally not considered copyrighted (who would own it? Bush?). However, the spanish translation might be protected by copyright, depending on what the law of the land says on the matter (is this site still hosted in the US?).

Considering the spanish text is mainly there for the purpose of being re-translated back to english, I would guess it is in the clear. Except for specific filesharing laws, copyright mainly restricts commercial usages.

So unless El Pais gets in touch and claims otherwise, I say use it and don't worry.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:40:00 PM EST
The Spanish text is the original transcript presumably authored by the Spanish Ambassador and unmodified by El Pais, and the English translation is ours. Booman has published a translation of the El Pais background article, but we haven't published any quotations from it )though we have linked to it when paraphrasing it).

So I think we're fine.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:54:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, the spanish ambassador is unlikely to demand royalties...

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yepppaaaa..

here I listen to you.. I agree with you and mig... great...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 04:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]


We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:49:31 PM EST
The picture + your sig line...

Hilarious.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry I'm a bit out of the loop. Is that kcurie with Miguel?!

Sweet photo, in any case.

je je!

by Loefing on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:32:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who do you thing it could be? Bush and Aznar?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:44:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
was that necessary.
by Loefing on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 08:03:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 08:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/27/84510/5786

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 09:14:58 AM EST
Congrats, Jerome, you made the reclist!

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 10:04:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
YOU did.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 12:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Congratulations to all of you!  
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 01:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for translating this! I saw in el pais night before last and struggled with the spanish...

PS I sent you an email about your cv, did you get it? (Spam firewalls and all...)

by redstar on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 09:34:03 AM EST
No, I didn't. Did you just send it now? Can you send it again to both the public and the private addresses?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 09:51:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I sent it to the private from mine. Will do so again to the public when I get home.

Also sent one to Jerome from the private email, but I'm betting that didn't get through either (Jerome?).

Oh how I hate spam filters...

by redstar on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 12:04:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I got it a couple of weeks ago. Have passed it on. No news yet.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 12:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent.

Wasn't sure, Miguel and I have been having problems - actually I'm having problems with everyone I newly send email to from that address...switched emails to my wife's msn account, stopped using my bike team email (there, the spam was overwhelming to the point of unusable - phentermine, epo and steroid ads et c.) now when I first use the thing with a new email address I just never know.

by redstar on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 12:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The WaPo on this topic:

Report Says Hussein Was Open To Exile Before 2003 Invasion - washingtonpost.com

Less than a month before the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Saddam Hussein signaled that he was willing to go into exile as long as he could take with him $1 billion and information on weapons of mass destruction, according to a report of a Feb. 22, 2003, meeting between President Bush and his Spanish counterpart published by a Spanish newspaper yesterday.

The meeting at Bush's Texas ranch was a planning session for a final diplomatic push at the United Nations. The White House was preparing to introduce a tough new Security Council resolution to pressure Hussein, but most council members saw it as a ploy to gain their authorization for war.

Spain's prime minister at the time, Jose Maria Aznar, expressed hope that war might be avoided -- or at least supported by a U.N. majority -- and Bush said that outcome would be "the best solution for us" and "would also save us $50 billion," referring to the initial U.S. estimate of what the Iraq war would cost. But Bush made it clear in the meeting that he expected to "be in Baghdad at the end of March."

"It's like Chinese water torture," he said of the U.N. negotiations. "We've got to put an end to it."

White House spokesman Gordon D. Johndroe declined to comment on the report in El Pais, which also posted what it said was a leaked transcript of the meeting on its Web site. "We're more focused on the task at hand rather than 2003," Johndroe said. A senior administration official knowledgeable about the meeting said he doubted the $1 billion claim -- an offer reportedly transmitted through Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak -- but said he could not be sure. He said the general account of the meeting sounded plausible but did not offer details.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 10:53:47 AM EST
A BIG thank you for all the work that was done on this, and a big congratulations for the scoop!! Cheers to kcurie, migeru and to all else who helped with fine points of translation and/or legal advice, ettc. etc.

Amazing place this ET!!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 09:39:53 AM EST
Yes.. y ou are right.. it had some difussion in the US.. but it seems it will n ever reach ever the core of the left blogosphere.. because they all know it more or less.. and the people of the US will never know the exact details..w ell because there is this corporate stuff in the media...

Pity

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 12:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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