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European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch – 9. October

by Fran Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:15:05 AM EST

On this date in history:

1831 - Capo d'Istria was assassinated.

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by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:15:48 AM EST
Poland to be wooed by Germany and France over EU treaty - EUobserver.com
France and Germany will this week try and persuade Poland to support the EU's new treaty amid reports that Warsaw is not happy with the latest draft.

Poland's president Lech Kaczynski is to meet his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy in Paris today (8 October) and German chancellor Angela Merkel at the end of the week in Berlin.

The move comes after Warsaw let it be known that it is dissatisfied with the treaty compromise which does not take on board one of Poland's key demands.

A senior Polish diplomat told the International Herald Tribune newspaper: "We are not happy with the current text, because elements we wanted are not in there."
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:18:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A senior Polish diplomat told the International Herald Tribune newspaper: "We are not happy with the current text, because elements we wanted are not in there."

What elements? "Europe is a Christian Club"?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't Poland have some sort of over-representation in number of seats in something or other?  Perhaps it is explicit recognition of whatever policy that creates this advantage that they are looking for in the treaty.
by Zwackus on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A senior Polish diplomat told the International Herald Tribune newspaper: "We are not happy with the current text, because elements we wanted are not in there."

They agreed to it. Nobody is hapyp with a compromise text. Are the people in that government even adults?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:15:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are the people in that government even adults?

I think, in all honesty, we worked out an answer for that a long time ago.

I strongly suspect that the huge emigration from Poland to the UK and Irealnd is, in a large part, a result of the conservative cultural attitude driving the young and dynamic away as much as the improved economic opportunity.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:47:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From cocaine to plutonium: mafia clan accused of trafficking nuclear waste | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
Authorities in Italy are investigating a mafia clan accused of trafficking nuclear waste and trying to make plutonium.

The 'Ndrangheta mafia, which gained notoriety in August for its blood feud killings of six men in Germany, is alleged to have made illegal shipments of radioactive waste to Somalia, as well as seeking the "clandestine production" of other nuclear material.

Two of the Calabrian clan's members are being investigated, along with eight former employees of the state energy research agency Enea.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:20:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oof.  Where is de Gondi?

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Faroe Islands seek closer EU relations - EUobserver.com
EUOBSERVER / TÓRSHAVN - The Faroe Islands are seeking a stronger and more structured relationship with the European Union and membership of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).

"We would like a closer co-operation with the EU - a more structured relationship similar to the one Switzerland has with the EU," said Herluf Sigvaldsson, director of the Faroese government's foreign affairs department.

He told EUobserver that the Faroese government is having informal talks with the EFTA member states - Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.

Although the talks are only in the initial stages and are expected to take a long time, "the strategy is membership", according to Mr Sigvaldsson.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:27:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, new rule for EU membership : No slaughter of cetecean populations because of "tradition".

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:50:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fail to see the point in that, given that none of those countries wants to join the EU...

This article is about Faroes - a self-governing part of Denmark - wanting a structured relationship with the EU, not wanting to join. Considering they are partly part of Denmark (same royalty, elects two Danish MPs) if they wanted to join I think that would be a larger problem.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:41:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The interesting thing about this is that Denmark negotiated for its "overseas" territories to be out of the EU, and the first thing that Greenland did when it got home rule was to get out of the EU. Now these bits of Denmark want to get back in...

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | EU treaty 'same as Constitution'
The EU treaty is "substantially equivalent" to the EU Constitution thrown out by Dutch and French voters in 2005, MPs have said.

The European scrutiny committee said it should be "made clear" the UK can keep opt-outs of parts of the document.

The Conservatives said the government was now "morally bound" to hold a referendum on the treaty, as had been promised on the Constitution.

But ministers say the two documents are "substantially" different.

The treaty incorporates some of the old EU Constitution, on which Labour had promised a referendum before it was scuppered by the Dutch and French votes.

The Conservatives argue it is as much as 90% the same.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:28:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EU treaty 'may not keep UK's red lines' - Independent Online Edition > Europe

The Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, faced a sharp rebuff over Europe after a Labour-dominated committee attacked the "secrecy" of European reform.

The Commons European Scrutiny Committee also contradicted the repeated statements of ministers that the proposed EU reform treaty significantly differed from the planned EU constitution, which was abandoned after it was rejected by French and Dutch voters.

A report by the committee said: "Taken as a whole, the reform treaty produces a general framework which is substantially equivalent to the constitutional treaty." It also warned that Britain may not be able to maintain its "red lines" over important policy areas.

The report, published just days before European leaders meet in Lisbon to thrash out a final deal on the reforms, gives ammunition to sceptics who say the treaty should go to a referendum.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:28:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is missing in this discourse is that the constitutional treaty was not all that constitutional to start with.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:50:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since the UK doesn't have a written constitution, any EU treaty can be argued to be "constitutional".

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:56:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but on the same argument, as the constitution is partially made up of case law, then Judges decisions could be described as constitutional. ( and as US and Commonwealth case law is also taken as part of case law would this be constitutional too)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but Courts, the US and the Commonwealth are not dangerous furriners like the EU is.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:07:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is what this comes down to. The 'reform treaty' won't have a sizeable impact upon the existing legal order in England and Wales, and neither would the constitutional treaty have had. But euroscepticism has completely taken over the English press. Everything the EU does is displayed as a foreign takeover. Even in the Independent.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:01:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
France faces hard sell on Iran sanctions - International Herald Tribune

PARIS: While President Nicolas Sarkozy would like to take the lead on preventing Iran from getting the nuclear bomb, some of France's neighbors and many of its own companies are skeptical of his initiative to impose tougher European sanctions outside a United Nations mandate.

Sarkozy travels to Moscow on Tuesday to meet with President Vladimir Putin and France will present its sanctions proposals to EU colleagues next Monday. But neighbors and businesses warn that Asian - notably Chinese - companies will simply step in and pick up the slack, hurting European business interests rather than Iran.

They also argue that forgoing an early foothold in Iranian gas reserves, the world's second-largest, could compromise European energy security by increasing dependence on Russia - which threatened again last week to turn off the gas spigot on the main pipeline to Western Europe.

The skeptical countries include those with old and new economic relations with Tehran - Italy, Germany and Austria - and French companies with current and future investment plans in Iran, like Total and Renault.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:29:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

forgoing an early foothold in Iranian gas reserves, the world's second-largest, could compromise European energy security by increasing dependence on Russia - which threatened again last week to turn off the gas spigot on the main pipeline to Western Europe.

Sigh... that story has gelled and nothing will get it unstuck from jounralists and politicians' heads.

What increases our dependence on Russia (supposing that this used of "dependence" even makes sense in a context mf mutual interdependence) is our increased consumption of gas.

As to the foothold in Iranian gas reserves, we've had it for 15 years (or 35 if you look back further) and yet no gas is being exported. Iran is not willing nor able to export its gas. Full stop. Nobody will get gas from Iran in the foreseable future.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, the "if we don't do it someone else will" argument that has sustained our arms industry so well over the years. Strangely it doesn't apply so well to cocaine or heoin distribution, but I'm just a bitter cynic.

However on this occasion I support the antis, this shameless kowtowing to Bush may get him a showcase on the White House lawn, but the yanks are not doing this for good reasons and Sarko is wrong to join with them.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:54:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EU Commission President Ruffles German Feathers with Critique | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 08.10.2007
An interview with the head of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, set sparks flying in Germany after he criticized Berlin's EU policy and overall attitude to Europe in what some called an election ploy.

Barroso's comments were a "provocation" which "amazed" diplomats in Brussels, Germany's Süddeutsche Zeitung (SZ) wrote in its Monday edition.

 

On Saturday, Belgian newspaper De Standaard published a wide- ranging interview with Barroso in which the head of the European Union's executive arm first said he "got along well" with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and then accused Germany of "contradictory" behavior towards the EU.

 

Germany "pulled Europe out of the crisis over the Reform Treaty, so it has no need to catch up" with the rest of the union, European parliamentarian Elmar Brok told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung (FAS) in an implicit rejection of Barroso's comments.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe if Germany dropped its plans to extend the limitation on the free movement of people beyond 2009 it would be less open to charges of inconsistency.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:26:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what is the substance of Barroso's criticism?
Germany's "plea to leave power where it can be exercised closest to the citizen ... is really aimed against the European institutions," Barroso said in an unusually direct statement.

In addition, Germany's apparent reluctance to support reforms to the EU's energy market and to divert unused agricultural funds to pay for the Galileo satellite-navigation system is "worrying," he added.

Brok, however, said Berlin was ready to invest money in European ventures but wanted to make sure its interests -- and those of German companies -- "are taken into account in an appropriate manner," the FAS reported.



We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Germany's "plea to leave power where it can be exercised closest to the citizen ... is really aimed against the European institutions," Barroso said in an unusually direct statement.

Subsidiarity is suppsoed to be one of the favorite arguments of the neo-liberals... Have they gotten to enjoy the powers that the French and Germans have fought so far against them to endow the Commission?


In addition, Germany's apparent reluctance to support reforms to the EU's energy market and to divert unused agricultural funds to pay for the Galileo satellite-navigation system is "worrying," he added.

Yeah, there's no reason to oppose the energy reform apart from being a bad European. And no reason to oppose discreet attempt to discreetly empty the CAP of its substance by pilfering its budget for unrelated purposes. Bad, bad Germany. Bad Europeans.


Brok, however, said Berlin was ready to invest money in European ventures but wanted to make sure its interests -- and those of German companies -- "are taken into account in an appropriate manner," the FAS reported.

The gall.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany's "plea to leave power where it can be exercised closest to the citizen ... is really aimed against the European institutions,"

there are very real issues about democratic accountability. It is all very well for people to say that reform will happen after the fact, but there are a lot of people who, having grown suspicious of unaccountable bureaucratic institutions in their own countries, are not willing to concede a lack of accountability to some group even more remote. the secrecy of the EU is notorious, their obstruction of any basic request for information legendary.

The germans are right, even if for the wrong reasons.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am, however, irked by people who insist the answer is to "repatriate competences", while admitting "it has been notoriously difficult to find competences to repatriate". Maybe if, after much searching, none have been found, it could just be that the EU really is not overstepping the limits of "subsidiarity". After all, the EU only has the powers that all the EU member states can agree to give it, and second of all in countries that are more centralised (such as France and the UK) it is the EU that is pushing for more regional policies. The EU's committee of the regions was spearheaded by Germany on behalf of its Länder 15 years ago (and, ironically, was almost derailed by Catalonia's Jordi Pujol insisting that it become a Second chamber when the EP didn't even have the legislative powers it has today).

So Germany is not even contradicting itself here.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the secrecy of the EU is notorious, their obstruction of any basic request for information legendary.

The EU bureaucracy is one of the most open, accessible and transparent. This above is just a Murdoch talking point.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:07:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the secrecy of the Council of Ministers is very real.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:08:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be a nice thing, for sure, for such things to be public, but does it happen anywhere on the planet? Is it even realistic to happen?

No commercial negotiation, just like no political negotiation, can be expected to be fully public. No Cabinet meeting can seriously be expected to be fully public.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:25:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you're right about that. But nevertheless things like register of members' interest should be online. Such things are the basic building blocks of open government. Their absence, indeed any attempt to hinder access is a direct obsruction of democratic accountability and is indicative of the centre's intentions.

There are numerous examples, a Channel 4 programme a couple of years back exemplified how difficult, or often impossible, it was for ordinary citizens to obtain information directly relevant to their lives.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:39:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be ok if it was purely an executive body: that the legislative function is also carried out in public is not acceptable.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:40:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even the MEPs are frustrated with the Council. They say the can work with the Commission, but the Council is just difficult and secretive.

Not to speak of the way they enter into secret deals with the commission to introduce legislation that would be politically unpopular at home. And let's not forget about commitology.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was waiting for that word to show up, or else I had to dig through the diaries for the reminder. In all fairness, I think there's also a plus side to commitology - as Ignasi Guardans flags halfway in his article. The technocratic element is useful - but it should always, always be transparent and put to vote independently by MEPs. As so often is commiserated on ET: the EU is not democratic enough.
by Nomad on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 10:53:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it's more democractic and open than any national government, so that particular criticism is not acceptable from basically anyone in Europe.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm....

I would argue that governments in all the Nordic countries are more democratic and open than the EU.  

Many Norwegians who voted against joining the EU did so because the EU system is not democratic enough.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's fair enough, but 1) what would make it more democratic? 2) how do you get there from here?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is something I have never thought about - certainly not in detail. To me, the EU seems like a 'heavy machine', that is difficult to turn or change.  It will certainly take much effort and time.

Personally, I do not believe that another layer of 'government' (which the EU is) is a good thing - it causes growth in bureaucracy, and the danger of even more top down decision making. For a small, democratic country like Norway (some say over-democratic), that prospect is not tempting, as the latest polls on EU membership shows.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The entire EU bureaucracy employs fewer people than the Amsterdam city council and the EU budget (which funds all the EU's structural, regional and cohesion funds, the CAP, and other programs, and finally the bureaucracy itself) is less than 1% of the EU's GDP.

Obviously nobody has bothered to dispel the Eurosceptic fearmongering in the Norwegian press either.

How, pray tell, does Norway suggest to tackle global warming and international law without supranational organizations?

What other supranational organization has a parliament directly elected by proportional representation and with the power to veto legislation and hold the organization's officials to account, and ombudsman, and a court of justice that every citizen of a member state can appeal to?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:18:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Obviously nobody has bothered to dispel the Eurosceptic fearmongering in the Norwegian press either.

I do not think there has been much Eurosceptic fearmongering, actually.  It has been more about real issues that are important to Norwegians: fisheries, land ownership, agricultural issues, equality (gender), etc., etc. We would have had to give up too much control with full membership.

EU membership is, as far as I can judge, a non-issue in the Norwegian press these days. What we do see, after the EEA agreement was signed, is how much we have to 'toe the Eu line' - on many 'weird and wonderful' EU policies/regulations, without being members.

Migeru:

How, pray tell, does Norway suggest to tackle global warming and international law without supranational organizations?

Norwegians have always been 'internationalist' and work within almost every international organisation you could mention (UN's first Secretary General was Norwegian, and the Brundtland Report has its name from our first female PM).  

There are great debates these days on global warming and environmental issues.  This is a process which has been going on for a long time, and the Norwegians are not behind the EU, as far as I can judge. And they work with the EU and many other organisations on these issues.  

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not think there has been much Eurosceptic fearmongering, actually.
Then where do the false statements about the EU that you made in your previous comment come from?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which false statements?
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I suppose I read intoSolveig:
To me, the EU seems like a 'heavy machine', that is difficult to turn or change.
a claim that the EU is a bureaucratic mammoth of an organisation, which is why I replied

Migeru:

The entire EU bureaucracy employs fewer people than the Amsterdam city council and the EU budget (which funds all the EU's structural, regional and cohesion funds, the CAP, and other programs, and finally the bureaucracy itself) is less than 1% of the EU's GDP.
I guess I should ask you on what you base your perception that the EU is a "heavy machine", any more than, say, the UN.

I guess what makes the UN more attractive than the EU in the eyes of the Norwegians is, then, that the UN is toothless and demands no concessions as a condition of membership, while the EU demands legal changes on accession and in the future, as agreed collectively?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:17:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
I guess I should ask you on what you base your perception that the EU is a "heavy machine", any more than, say, the UN.

I dislike any large bureaucracy. They tend to take on a 'life of their own'.  UN is as bureaucratic as the EU, I'm sure.

Migeru:

I guess what makes the UN more attractive than the EU in the eyes of the Norwegians is, then, that the UN is toothless and demands no concessions as a condition of membership, while the EU demands legal changes on accession and in the future, as agreed collectively?

I guess that is partly true.  Norwegians are fiercely independent. Giving up hard won freedom (to join any organisation)is not something we would do lightly. We prefer cross border co-operation on an equal basis, I suppose.
       

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:43:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dislike any large bureaucracy. They tend to take on a 'life of their own'.  UN is as bureaucratic as the EU, I'm sure.
I don't know how to measure the "bureaucraticness" of an organisation, but I have already in this thread addressed the claim that the EU is a large bureaucracy.
Migeru:
The entire EU bureaucracy employs fewer people than the Amsterdam city council and the EU budget (which funds all the EU's structural, regional and cohesion funds, the CAP, and other programs, and finally the bureaucracy itself) is less than 1% of the EU's GDP.
Of course, given Norway's size, it is possible that the EU budget is comparable to Norway's GDP, and Amsterdam's population is a sizeable fraction of Norway's population, so it's all relative.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This OECD report should give you some figures:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/33/20213253.pdf

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:37:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me add that I don't think there's any need for, say, Norway or Switzerland to join the EU. As long as you're in the EEA you enjoy mutual rights to free movement of persons, capital, goods, and services. So, other than the requirement to extend voting rights in local elections to EU citizens, there's little difference to individuals' ordinary lives between being in the EU or outside it but in the EEA.

And we're all in the Council of Europe anyway, so the same minimum standard applies on Human Rights issues.

My position is tending towards making it explicit that the EU is a political project, and having Eurosceptic countries butt out to the EEA.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
My position is tending towards making it explicit that the EU is a political project

What really worries me is when there is talk about a future EU army and common foreign policy.  

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But you are fine with Norway being in NATO.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fine?  
10 days ago, the top General in the Norwegian army more or less said we were 'on our own' now, since NATO forces are too busy all over the world - fighting 'terrorism'.
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU membership is, as far as I can judge, a non-issue in the Norwegian press these days. What we do see, after the EEA agreement was signed, is how much we have to 'toe the Eu line' - on many 'weird and wonderful' EU policies/regulations, without being members.
That's what happens when you're a 4M people country joining a 400M people market. You have to play by the rules of the market. If you joined the EU you'd get to set the rules of the market.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:50:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We would not have the chance of 'setting rules', even if we were members, in my opinion.  It is not 1 vote per country, is it?  The big nations set the rules, the others must 'grin and bear it'.  
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:20:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now we get into the vagaries of qualified majorities in the European Council. However, in general small countries are, in fact, overrepresented in the EU institutions in terms of both voting weights in the Council and number of MEPs and commissioners.

Voting in the Council of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Treaty of Nice (current)
  • To pass: Majority of countries (50% or 67%) and votes (74%) and population (62%)
  • To block: Condition to pass a vote not achieved

This is the currently applicable voting system. According to the procedure, each member state has a fixed number of votes. The number allocated to each country is roughly determined by its population (see table on the right), but progressively weighted in favor of smaller countries. To pass a vote, both of the following conditions must apply to establish qualified majority voting (QMV) - the bloc's key way of decision-making in the absence of a consensus:

  • the proposal must be backed by a majority of member states (or two thirds in certain cases: see below);
  • the proposal must be supported by 255 votes from a total of 345 -- about 73.9% of the votes.

Furthermore, a member may[1] request the verification of the population condition (which is then also required for the resolution to be adopted):

  • the countries supporting the proposal must represent at least 62% of the total EU population.

The population requirement is almost always already implied by the condition on the number of votes. The rare exceptions to this happen in certain cases when a proposal is backed by exactly two of the five most populous member states but not including Germany, that is, two of France, UK, Italy and Spain, and by all or nearly all of the 22 other members.

Furthermore, when the European Council is not acting on a proposal of the Commission, the qualified majority requires backing by two thirds (rather than a simple majority) of the member states[2].

Note that mechanisms by which the Commission makes a proposal may not require weighted votes. For example, the Anti-Dumping Advisory Committee (ADAC) can approve a proposal to impose tariffs based on a simple, unweighted majority. Since this simple majority vote leads to a Commission proposal to the Council, the simple majority effectively requires a qualified majority to overturn it (because overturning the recommendation of the ADAC means voting against a Commission proposal). This greatly increases the power of small member states in such circumstances.

The declarations of the conference which adopted the treaty of Nice contained contradictory statements concerning qualified majority voting (QMV) after the enlargement of the European Union to 25 and 27 members: one declaration[3] specified that the qualifying majority of votes would increase to a maximum of 73.4%, contradicting another declaration[4] which specified a qualifying majority of 258 votes (74.78%) after enlargement to 27 countries. But the treaties of accession following the Treaty of Nice clarified the actual required majority.

[edit] Reform Treaty (proposed)

  • To pass: Majority of countries (55% or 72%) and population (65%)
  • To block: Condition to pass a vote not achieved and at least 4 countries against the proposal

The Constitution envisaged the "double majority" system for the QMV which according to some countries better reflects the true size of populations and at the same time acknowledges the smaller member states' fears of being overruled by the larger countries. The reform treaty has adopted this method. The second condition of at least 4 countries against the proposal is to ensure that the most populous Member States cannot block decisions and is important in 10 different voting scenarios where legislation requiring QMV can be passed although the population requirement isn't fullfilled and all member states except:

Germany and France and one of UK, Italy, Spain or Poland
Germany and UK and one of Italy, Spain or Poland
Germany and Italy and one of Spain or Poland
France and UK and Italy

are for the proposal. In practice one has to take into account the political likelihood for each minority.

[edit] Penrose method (proposed)

  • To pass: Majority of votes (61.4 %)
  • To block: Condition to pass a vote not achieved

Poland proposed the Penrose method (colloquially called the "square root" system) which would narrow the weighting of votes between the largest and smallest countries in terms of population. The Czech Republic supported this method to an extent, but has warned it would not back a Polish veto on this matter. All the other states remained opposed.[5] After previously refusing to discuss the issue, the German government agreed to include it for discussion at the June council.[6]. The given percentage is the game theoretical optimal threshold.[7]

See also the nice table comparing voting weights with population for all member states. The breakpoint currently happens betwen Spain and Poland. Countries no larger than Poland have more votes than would correspond by population, and countries no smaller than Spain have fewer votes.

Now, as we know the number of votes is not a reliable measure of the amount of power a voting block holds, but that is another story.

Banzhaf power index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Banzhaf power index, named after John F. Banzhaf III (though originally invented by Penrose (1946)), is a power index defined by the probability of changing an outcome of a vote where voting rights are not necessarily equally divided among the voters or shareholders.

To calculate the power of a voter using the Banzhaf index, list all the winning coalitions, then count the critical voters. A critical voter is a voter who, if he changed his vote from yes to no, would cause the measure to fail. A voter's power is measured as the fraction of all swing votes that he could cast.

The index is also known as the Banzhaf-Coleman index. See History.



We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oops...what have I started...by a simple comment!  I need time to digest this.  

First reaction: even with voting weights in favour of the smaller nations, I still cannot see that it can ever be a 'fair' vote for them within the EU system.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Define "a fair voting system".

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One country - One vote?
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With what kind of majority required to make decisions?

Note that this only applies to the Council, though, not to the Parliament.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Off the top of my head: a simple majority would do.  

These are 'problems' i have never contemplated to be honest...

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that entirely undemocratic? Why should the representative of 3 million people have the same vote as the representative of 40 million?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:55:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can see your point.  This is one of the problems with the EU, in my opinion - it seems impossible for a small nation to have any real influence. So staying outside may be the best option...      

By the way, Norway's population is over 4.5 million - and estimated to grow to 5 million by 2030.

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 07:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The whole point of qualified majority voting is that it's a compromise between the small nations - who form a large group in Council and the large ones to balance their power, as does the veto power. Blocking legislation is much easier than forcing through unpopular legislation since to pass it you need both a majority of states and a majority of population while to stop it you just need either a majority of states or a majority of population. Small nations have more than their fair share of blocking power, strictly speaking.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 07:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Veto and blocking power...is that not just a waste of time?        
by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 09:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is not true. Any national government is subject to stronger accountability to the national legislature than the Commission or Council are to the European Parliament.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:15:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But (in theory, at least) one already elected the national government to defend one's interests on the European level and they are already accountable to the national legislature. It's a difficult question whether a "democratic deficit" even exists.
I think the new treaty will solve some of the problems by making the codecision procedure the standard.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:27:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know you enjoy playing devil's advocate to all of us, but still, this is simply untrue.

The Council is accountability incarnate - directly to each government, which is present in the Council, gets to vote on its decisions, and is the legitimate representative of the various countries, being fully accountable at home (don't blame Europe if that last point is not perfect).

The EuroParliament adds another layer of accountability, one less imbibed with feelings of nationality. Even if the EP does not have full pwoers over the Commission, it now has quite a bit, which makes the Commission MORE accountable, not less.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:52:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't evade the issue. I said the Council is not accountable to the EP. I did not say the Council is not accountable to the national governments, and I did not say the Commission is not accountable to the EP.

Besides, it is well known that the national governments use the lack of transparency in the Council to propose unpupular policies which can then conveniently be blamed "on Brussels" when the domestic populations protest over them.

Of all the EU institutions, the Council of Ministers is the one in direst need of reform, to make it more open.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
was long seen as a form of "Senate" for theEU. Why should it be accountable to the EP?

And my point is that the EU institutions are accountable. The Council's voting rules are known, so if people believe it when their governments balme things on "Brussels", they are just badly informed. But what else is new.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Council doesn't operate as a legislative body. It's an intergovernmental council and it invokes executive privilege to keep its proceedings secret.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have 2 parts:

Openness:
The EU is less open then the Swedish government in terms of handing out information. The journalists unions paper Journalisten showed that rather clearly in 1996. An english article on the subject.

Democracy:
The last swedish government used EU to push through stuff like the data retention directive which they in all probability deemed that they could not pass through parliament without claiming that "Brussels makes us do it". The problem in parliament would be the utter lack of support in the population. Therefore the swedish system of making laws is more democratic then the EU level.

Thus, I would claim that

Still
it's more democractic and open than any national government, so that particular criticism is not acceptable from basically anyone in Europe.

is false.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Therefore the swedish system of making laws is more democratic then the EU level.

I fail to see how you conclude that. All you are saying is that the Swedish Parliament can be browbeaten nto submission when "Brussels" is invoked, which shows gaps in Swedish democracy rather than in Council procedures.

Why are people always blaming Europe for their failings? "Because it's convenient" sounds like a pretty good answer.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:20:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ASKOD is describing a standard procedure used by all national governments to take unpopular proposals to the Council to be able to "blame Brussels". If the Council were not opaque, this would not be possible.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
butthe Council rules are known. So any Council decision included a vote by the relevant government - or, more usually, a unanimous decision (after a shadow vote was taken)

What prevents people in each country from holdingtheir government accountable for decisions in the Council to which they are a party? If there is any lack of accountability, it is at the national level, not at the European one.

Again, that governments promote ignorance about the EU to hide behind the Council is not a valid excuse.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Council secrecy is absolutely not funny. It has consequences for airline passenger data, the CIA prison/flight scandal, is at the root of most of our headaches with the treaties...

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the subject line was meant to be only "I know", but got autofilled while I wasn't looking....

As to your wider point. I'm partisan, as you know, of making EU decisions subject to much stronger control by the Europarliament (thus my support for the Constitution, as an additional step in that direction)

I fail to see how Council transparency to the wider public would help much of anything. Negotiations will take place elsewhere if you impose cameras and the like, and Council meetings will become big pointless PR meetings.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:06:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not only about council transparency to the wider public. It's about council transparency to even the national parliaments.

But, in fact, since in parliamentary systems there is effectively no separation between legislative and executive, as the executive comes out of the legislative and controls the parliamentary majority, to expect national parliaments to hold their own governments to account over their participation in the EU Council is like demanding a game of good cop-bad cop.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:16:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fail to see how you conclude that. All you are saying is that the Swedish Parliament can be browbeaten nto submission when "Brussels" is invoked, which shows gaps in Swedish democracy rather than in Council procedures.

Now we are getting to the core of the matter. Essentially what I do is compare how the democracy is working now compared with before the EU membership. I get that is not how you want to compare, so exactly how do you define national government in contrast to the EU? Keeping in mind that you wanted to compare them in the first place.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:28:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All you are saying is that the Swedish Parliament can be browbeaten nto submission when "Brussels" is invoked, which shows gaps in Swedish democracy rather than in Council procedures.

Thinking about how it is browbeaten reveals something.

Without the EU level:
government proposes legislation -> parliament votes it down -> life goes on

(Swedish governments are often minority governments and can loose votes, as long as it is not budget votes or something critical like that)

With the EU level:
government proposes legislation in the Council -> Council passes it -> [lots of steps within the EU...] -> directive comes to Swedish parliament -> parliament votes it down -> Sweden gets sued before the EU court -> Swedish parliament eventually accepts or leave EU

OR
government proposes legislation in the Council -> Council passes it -> parliament holds vote of no confidence -> government falls -> possibly new elections

In essence:
EU membership has in Sweden passed legislative powers from parliament to the executive government, and this is due to the rules and the power of the Council.

If the Council is to work like a senate it should have senators that are either elected by the people or elected by the parliaments. Mixing in the executive governments as the strongest part of an EU-level legislative process shifts power nationally to executive governments, weakening what checks existed on the national level. And that is not a good thing.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, this is the first clear explanation of why the new treaty will give the National Parliament the possibility of having input into the codecision process.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:16:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With the EU level:
government proposes legislation in the Council -> Council passes it -> [lots of steps within the EU...] -> directive comes to Swedish parliament ...

...

Mixing in the executive governments as the strongest part of an EU-level legislative process shifts power nationally to executive governments, weakening what checks existed on the national level.

This is inaccurate. First of all, the Council is not the strongest part of the EU legislative process, nor does it propose legislation. Legislative initiative is with the European Commission.

What national governments do is introduce amendments to proposed directives during the codecision process (subject to European Parliament approval), and (in secret and behind the scenes) collude with one another and with the Commission to have new directives or regulations introduced that would be unpopular at home.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for clearing that out for me.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 05:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If the Council is to work like a senate it should have senators that are either elected by the people or elected by the parliaments.

But that's the case!!! Your 'senator' is your Prime Minister (or President), duly elected by the people or the parliament of your country.

If most legislation applicable in our countries is decided in Brussels, then the behavior of your representative in Brussels should be the single most important thing you vote on. If you don't, again, it's your democratic process that's flawed, not the Council.

This has been the case for decades. Why are people always pretending to discover how Europe works?!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's the case!!! Your 'senator' is your Prime Minister (or President), duly elected by the people or the parliament of your country.

I should have stated that I wanted it seperate from executive. That was the whole point of the post. Afaik there is no way a member country can choose to be represented by specially elected senators and not their executive in the Council. If there are I would be interested in finding it out.

If most legislation applicable in our countries is decided in Brussels, then the behavior of your representative in Brussels should be the single most important thing you vote on.

It is not that most legislation goes through Brussels, it is that what can not be passed otherwise goes through Brussels. It is small amount in comparision, but very important.

If you don't, again, it's your democratic process that's flawed, not the Council.

If the EU structure shifts power from legislative to executive within the member countries, there is a problem with the whole structure (EU and national level alike). You could argue that the most efficient way of fixing it is at national level in each country. I would probably not agree, but it is an argument that could be made.

Again, you wanted to compare national and EU level, thus I compared Sweden with and without the EU level. If that is not the comparision you wanted, you have to explain to me what you are comparing because I do not get it.

Why are people always pretending to discover how Europe works?!

Because we are. The post you answered to was the first time I sorted out what the effects of the EU membership are on the swedish legislative process. And I think the general point stands even with Migerus corrections.

I think the interesting question would be: Why do not even educadeted interested citizens know how the EU works?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:34:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding the Council as "senate", it is not dissimilar to the German Bundesrat, and nobody in Germany seems to complain that the Bundesrat is undemocratic and unfair towards the Laender.

Bundesrat of Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The composition of the Bundesrat is different from other legislative bodies representing states (such as the Russian Federation Council or the U.S. Senate). First, its members are not elected, neither by popular vote nor by the state parliaments, but are normally members of the state cabinets[1] which appoint them and can remove them at any time. Normally, a state delegation is headed by the respective minister-president. Second, the states are not represented by an equal number of delegates, since the population of the respective state is a factor, as the following table shows.


We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is interesting.

Could you move it to the new thread (top of frontpage right now)? I will give it an attempt to figure out the difference (if there is one to be found).

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:55:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you make it a diary? I'm off to a job interview.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 06:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome has already made us a new thread were I have moved a corrected version of my argument.

If you are of I can always cut in your question with my answer (when I have written one).

Good luck btw!

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 10th, 2007 at 07:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
so that particular criticism is not acceptable from basically anyone in Europe.

So criticism is only acceptable if your national government is better? That I consider unacceptable. :-)

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's just that it's hypocritical.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:32:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If your national government is undemocratic it should be criticised in its own right, but criticising one does not mean not criticising the other. Otherwise you end up where you can not criticise the US in Iraq before you pacified Darfur.

And considering it, if your national government is less democratic, then you have less possibility in influencing it (as it does not care about its demos). So putting (assuming citizen in EU member state) your efforts where they have maximised effect means trying to change the EU. Which can take the form of criticism.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SPIEGEL Interview with French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner: 'I Am not a Warmonger' - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner discusses Franco-German tensions, the controversy over Iran's nuclear program and his relationship with President Sarkozy.

French Foreign Minister, Bernard Kouchner (left) and French President Nicolas Sarkozy: "He gives me all kinds of latitude to act and do as I see fit." SPIEGEL: Mr. Minister, is our impression correct that there is trouble in Franco-German relations -- despite kisses on the cheek between President Nicolas Sarkozy and Chancellor Angela Merkel?

Kouchner: I don't believe that there is trouble. Friends don't have to agree on all issues. For example, we are indeed of different opinions when it comes to nuclear power, but that's normal. We agree on all fundamental issues.

SPIEGEL: And yet officials in Berlin complain that their friends in Paris are claiming every diplomatic success as their own. One example is the release of the five Bulgarian nurses from a Libyan prison. Is it only the style of French foreign policy that has changed, or is it also its substance?

Kouchner: Yes, there is a new style. During the campaign, Sarkozy promised to do what he could for the imprisoned Bulgarians. Everything happened very quickly in the end, which may have seemed abrupt. Of course, (German Foreign Minister) Frank-Walter Steinmeier and (European Commissioner for External Relations) Benita Ferrero-Waldner made important contributions. But Sarkozy and Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi settled the matter in one decisive evening.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:32:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, how did we get the impression that we was a warmonger then ? Oh yes, he spoke of preparing for war when there was absolutely no need.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner says the world should prepare for war over Iran's nuclear programme.
"We have to prepare for the worst, and the worst is war," Mr Kouchner said in an interview on French TV and radio.

If you don't want a reputation as a neocon stooge for unnecessary war, then don't talk about it as if it were a done deal.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:07:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Craig: I am not gay tap tap tap

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:10:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Business | Ukraine settles Russian gas row
Ukraine has settled a commercial dispute with Russian gas firm Gazprom, averting the risk of having its most important supply of energy cut off.

The Russian firm had threatened to stop supplying its neighbour unless a $1.3bn (£650m) bill was paid this month.

But the two parties said they had reached a solution and would conclude an official agreement on Tuesday.

Previous disputes between the two have seen gas supplies to Ukraine stopped, with a knock-on effect across Europe.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:33:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ukraine never pays its gas, and palys an elaborate danse to restructure debt that is never paid either.

All this is theatre to hide the real deals done behind the scenes - but each election brings a new set of players to the table, so things need to be settled again.

Note that the two biggest parties in the recent elections (Timoschneko and Yanukovich) are the two biggest players in these discreet gas games - and that's why they are such arch enemies: there's a lot of loot, and no desire, as one can imagine, to share it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:30:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / In depth - EU plans market reforms to avert crisis

European nations are to draw up radical proposals to improve transparency in financial markets and to change the way credit rating agencies operate in an attempt to prevent any recurrence of the financial turmoil arising from the credit squeeze.

A roadmap of reforms was being drawn up by eurozone finance ministers last night including fuller public disclosure of activities involving special investment vehicles set up by banks.

The finance ministers, meeting on Sunday night in Luxembourg, were poised to call for a close examination of the role of credit rating agencies, especially in relation to structured finance instruments, conflicts of interest, transparency of rating methods and delays in reassessing ratings.

The drive comes as some members of the Group of Seven leading nations prepare to launch joint action to avoid future market turmoil at their autumn meeting this month.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:35:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These are the good sort of "reforms" that we favor, right?

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As always, the devil is in the details.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Troops may be out of Iraq by end of 2008, says Brown - Independent Online Edition > UK Politics

Gordon Brown was embroiled in another row about "spin" last night after telling MPs he may pull all of Britain's troops out of Iraq before he calls an election.

The Prime Minister said he was planning to reduce the total number of troops from 5,500 to 2,500 by next spring and held out the possibility of a total pull-out of British troops by the end of 2008. That would enable him to fight the next general election - now expected to be held in 2009 - with no troops in Iraq, neutralising the damage done to the Government by Tony Blair's decision to go to war.

He said the decision about more troop withdrawals would be taken in spring next year as Britain switched to an "over-watch" role with Iraqi forces, and it would depend on the advice of the military chiefs. But his claims were greeted with scepticism.

Mr Brown was accused of cynical media manipulation last week when he used a trip to Basra during the Conservative Party conference to imply that 1,000 British troops would be brought home by Christmas after the transfer of more tasks to Iraqi forces. It later emerged that the total included the withdrawal of 500 troops which had been previously announced.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:37:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I regret to inform Mr Brown that he must do more than pull out our troops before I will be convinced that the boil is lanced. He must concede that the US led invasion was a catstrophic error and that our supine participation has destroyed our international credibility and the reputation of parliament as a sovereign body.

a little recognition that the people we "train" are the sectarian militia and only loosely associated with the iraqi army would help as well

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:11:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The decision to let iraqis that cooperated with the british move too Britain is somewhat of an acknowledgement that the war was at least a failure. Therefore it surprised me, I figured they would simply be sacrificed.

But yes, those admissions would be nice to get.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Was this in the Salon last Friday? I missed it.

[Murdoch Alert] Times Online: Victory for those who risked lives for Britain (October 6, 2007)

Iraqi interpreters and other key support staff who have risked their lives to work for Britain are to be allowed to settle in the United Kingdom, The Times has learnt.

Hundreds of interpreters and their families are to be given assistance to leave Iraq, where they live under fear of death squads because they collaborated with British forces. Those wishing to remain in Iraq or relocate to neighbouring countries will be helped to resettle.

After a two-month campaign by The Times, Gordon Brown is set to announce that interpreters who have worked for the British Government for 12 months will be given the opportunity of asylum in Britain.

This has not just been a campaign by The Times, it has been a campaign by a cross-party group of MPs, more of the press including The Independent, and the Lib Dems passed one resolution demanding it at their conference. I don't know what the Labour and Tory conferences did, though. Does anyone know?

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:46:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Found this quote without looking to see where it was from, copied and pasted (thanks someone) and went up to the top having read it to look at the source expecting to be able to use the [Murdoch Alert]  What is up with the media if i'm not sure wether i'm reding murdoch or not any more?

Guardian Unlimited | Comment is free | Our weasel words betray these decent Iraqis

Scores have been hunted down by Muqtada al-Sadr's death squads. You can blame their murders on Britain and America only if you recognise a fascistic version of Islamism as 'the resistance' or wish that Saddam Hussein had remained in power. Although many think both in private, few outside the pseudo-left will say so openly. So the issue for public consumption is how to protect them.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 09:43:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Nick cohen was a signatory to the euston Manifesto, that sad tattered group of marxist tankies who seem to believe that fighting "fascism" in all its guises requires supporting even neocon piratical adventures. So he was always an unapologetic supporter of the war and,as the ranks of the true believers are worn down by reality, he increasingly rails at traitors like a drunk thrown out of the pub screaming "bastards" into the night.

The comments section take him to task but really, despite his lofty position as a "respected" (sic) commentator of the left, he's less of a prophet wandering in the wilderness waiting for belated recognition and more somebody who got trapped in the rubble when the Berlin Wall came down. He never made it into the 21st century and, misunderstanding where real threats lie, does his Don Quixote act in full public gaze. It's pitiful

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 10:36:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Polls had nothing to do with election delay, PM tells incredulous audience - Independent Online Edition > UK Politics

Gordon Brown has accepted full responsibility for the fiasco over his decision not to call a general election next month but admitted that he should have announced it earlier.

The Prime Minister refused to join a "blame game" taking place in Labour circles over who advised him to go for a snap election before he finally decided against one on Saturday. But he denied scrapping well-advanced plans for a1 November election because the Conservatives had recovered in the opinion polls during their party conference last week.

An uncomfortable Mr Brown faced questions for more than 65 minutes at a Downing Street press conference - the most hostile he has faced since becoming Prime Minister in June. Several journalists expressed doubts about his claim that he was not scared off from calling an election by the turnaround in the polls.

Later, Mr Brown clashed with the Tory leader in the Commons when David Cameron accused him of "spinning" the number of British troops to be withdrawn from Iraq during a visit to the country last week, saying this was "not an acceptable way for a Prime Minister to behave". Mr Brown was jeered by Tory MPs over his decision not to call an election, while they cheered Mr Cameron for scuppering an election few of them wanted.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:38:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great comment elsewhere in the Independent parlimentary sketch

To the question, "If the polls had shown you were leading in the key marginals and that there'd be a 100-seat majority for Labour, would you be calling an election?"

"I still would have made the same decision," he said. It's there on tape.

The air around him turned black, marsh gas bubbled sulphurously round his podium and when he opened his mouth, two tongues flickered out into the room. Or was it the E-numbers in my morning doughnuts? It's easy enough to say the Prime Minister's lying, but I have something more alarming.

These people need to believe they are truthful, honourable, moral. Such qualities are their most precious resources. A politician says something slightly untrue, a fib. The media sense it, the questioning intensifies and the politician ends up having to tell big, gob-stopping, full-fat lies. But because integrity is more valuable than sanity he adjusts himself to the lie; he rearranges his character around the lie so that he can say, "Whether I was right or not, I believed it to be the truth". Even now he may be persuading himself that the polls had nothing to do with his decision.

It's not that telling a lie makes you wicked, but believing your own lie makes you mad. You have to adjust the world to your own, false, version of it. And then you invade Iraq. How will it end for Gordon Brown? We'll have to wait and see.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:16:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And on the subject of lies, self-delusion and madness - we haven't heard much from that young Mr Blair recently, have we?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Last I heard he was having budgetary problems in affording his gilded cage...ooops palace.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:32:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't you know? He's very busy making peace in the middle east.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:43:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[Looks at Middle East. Sees no peace.]

Business as usual then.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No common ground in EU on currency - International Herald Tribune

Mounting concern over the euro's strength against the dollar failed to translate into a common European strategy Monday, as finance ministers disagreed over how much to press Washington before a meeting of the Group of 7 industrialized countries next week.

French calls for central bank intervention to cut the costs borne by European exports failed to sway Germany's finance minister, Peer Steinbrück, who insisted publicly Monday that he loved "a strong euro."

But before a meeting of finance ministers from the 13 countries that use the euro, Pedro Solbes of Spain underlined concerns about recent volatility that are shared across much of southern Europe. After saying that exchange rates should reflect economic fundamentals, he insisted that efforts to correct the euro-dollar relationship should "not only be made by the Europeans, but by all the parties concerned," according to news agencies.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:43:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany Calm as Others Worry Over "Supereuro" | Business | Deutsche Welle | 08.10.2007
Euro-zone finance ministers gathered Monday, Oct. 8, hoping to iron out their differences on what to do about the euro, whose strength against the dollar is blamed by some leaders for their countries' economic woes.

Ministers from the 13-member European shared currency club aim to forge a common stance ahead of next week's Group of Seven (G7) meeting in Washington. But divisions over the desirability of the "supereuro" remain.

 

The European Union's common currency was trading at below $1.20 in late 2005 but has surged ever since. Last week it hit a record high of $1.4281. The euro slipped to under $1.41 in European trading Monday.

 

The most vocal critics of a strong European currency are France and Italy, which complain that it is damaging business by ramping up export costs.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:44:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This uneasiness suggests that our economic masters have so internalised American propaganda about the US' economic mightiness that they are unable to accept the overwhelming evidence that the dollar is crashing cos their economy is in the shit.

Instead they prefer to invent ideas that spread the blame on europe. Talk about the colonised mind.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:22:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why does everyone keep acting like the fall of the dollar is some kind of unfortunate accident or unintended side effect of something?  Because a weak dollar has been an integral part of the Bush administration's woefully misguided economic policy since Day One.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:59:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spanish royals feel a chill amid protests and criticism - International Herald Tribune

MADRID: For more than three decades, King Juan Carlos of Spain has enjoyed the unquestioning loyalty of his subjects and the discreet respect of the media. But the era of deference during which the royal family's jet-set lifestyle and personal affairs were free of public scrutiny could be drawing to a close.

A series of protests by Catalan nationalists and calls from a conservative commentator for the king to abdicate have broken a longstanding taboo and prompted debate about the role of the monarchy and the privileges and uncommon reverence enjoyed by the royal family.

Juan Carlos took the unprecedented step last week of defending the constitutional monarchy, saying it had helped guarantee "the longest period of stability and prosperity that Spain has ever experienced under democratic rule."

The king's role in helping restore democracy in Spain after the dictatorship of Franco won him the enduring gratitude and respect of a majority of Spaniards.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The attacks have not come solely from the left. Last month, Federico Jiménez Losantos, an outspoken conservative radio commentator, called on Juan Carlos to abdicate in favor of his son, Felipe, to allow the regeneration of the monarchy.
WTF!? I completely missed this.

FJL is the Spanish equivalent of Rush Limbaugh: he has a greater ability to mobilize the PP base than the PP leadership themselves (and so they are afraid of him and toe his lines). In the context of

The royal family remains popular among Spaniards, who in May voted King Juan Carlos the greatest Spaniard of all time, beating out Christopher Columbus and Miguel de Cervantes, the author of "Don Quixote." But the affection for the king himself does not extend to the institution of the monarchy and many refer to themselves as juancarlistas rather than monarchists.
asking for Juan Carlos to abdicate in Felipe is concern-trolling (see, for instance, some quotations by FJL attacking Felipe's character here - in Spanish). There have been rumblings in the Spanish right wing for over 15 years on the idea of replacing the Monarchy with a Republic (If you can read Spanish, see this blog post on "the crime syndicate" and also this 1998 press report).

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:19:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is it the right-wing that dislikes the monarchy?  Usually, I would figure it would be the other way around, so I find the situation sort of baffling.
by Zwackus on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:06:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In an Iznogud kind of way, they want to be Caliph in place of the Caliph. Also, the King seems to have originally been an opportunistic target in their campaign to topple Felipe Gonzalez. And, finally, these people are so reactionary that the King seems to them to be unfit.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pissed off that he helped dismantle Franco's little utopia?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:28:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He is not right-wing enough... sorry I meant he is not a crazy right-wing fanatic..as Aznar.. the one pushed forwardst to get the presidency of the Republic....

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:12:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the President was supposed to be Antonio García Trevijano.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:48:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only as a transition to Aznar who will present himself afterwards in the elections

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hopefully if Spain becomes a Republic it will avoid the mistake of making it a Presidentialist one.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:20:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You really did nto know?

Absoltuely yes.. eh was asking for the inemdaite removal of the king.. given that eh did not do anything (or doing soemthing now) when Spain is bordering collapse...

It ws really funny since it prevented the right-wing to launch an attack against the independentists in catalonia burning the king's pictures (which is illegal in SPain ... you can put Mahoma artoons but not King's cartoon .. it is forbidden.... but ei i do nto want to recall that beatiful conversation we ahd about duble standards)....

It was in some sense funny.... But Ibarretxe referendum give new wings to the Right-wing tactic...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:09:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absoltuely yes.. eh was asking for the inemdaite removal of the king.. given that eh did not do anything (or doing soemthing now) when Spain is bordering collapse...
Coincidentally (or not) at the recent presentation of his latest political fiction book Aznar said the following...

Discurso de Aznar en la presentación de 'España en primer plano. Ocho años de política exterior' · ELPAIS.com Aznar's speech at the presentation of "Spain in the foreground. Eight years of foreign policy" - ElPais.com
No sería leal con mi conciencia si no expusiera mi máxima preocupación por los acontecimientos que hoy se están viviendo en España. Si no expusiera mi preocupación por la amenaza secesionista, por la quiebra del Estado, por la fragmentación del sentido nacional. En definitiva, porque estamos viviendo una gran crisis nacional. I would not be loyal to my conscience if I did not lay out my extreme preoccupation with the events that Spain lives today. If I did not lay out my preoccupation for the secessionist threat, for the break of the State, for the fragmentation of the National feeling. In sum, because we're living a great national crisis.
Queridos amigos, desde el comienzo de la Transición, tuvimos la inmensa suerte de que la Corona, símbolo de la unidad de la nación, se pusiera al frente de este gran proyecto de cambio para que España recuperara la libertad y un lugar preeminente en el mundo. Dear friends, from the start of the Transition [to Democracy], we had the immense luck that the Crown, the symbol of the nation's unity, put itself at the head of this great project of change in order for Spain recovered liberty and a prominent place in the world.
Hoy vemos cómo se ataca interesadamente a la Monarquía de todos y cómo, en otro alarde de frivolidad, se inhiben quienes tienen el deber constitucional de defenderla. Today we see how the Monarchy of all is attacked and how, in another show of fivolousness, those who have the constitutional duty to defend it inhibit themselves.

There are too many ironies in this speech, for instance the misappropriation of the late Julián Marías. By Aznar, of all people, who in his youth and during the Transition was a follower of the extreme right-wing Blas Piñar (Spain's Le Pen, in short).

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:01:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Upsurge in Kurdish attacks raises pressure on Turkish prime minister to order Iraq invasion | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, came under intense pressure last night to order an invasion of northern Iraq following the deadliest attacks for over a decade on the Turkish military and civilians by separatist Kurdish guerrillas.

Mr Erdogan, who has resisted demands from the Turkish armed forces for the past six months for a green light to cross the border into Iraqi Kurdistan, where the guerrillas are based, called an emergency meeting of national security chiefs to ponder their options in the crisis, a session that some said was tantamount to a war council.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:16:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can someone explain why these Kurdish separatists continue to resort to violence and terrorism?  Is the political (i.e. peaceful) approach to voicing their complaints and achieving their objectives so completely ineffectual to the point that such violence is really justified?

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just one example.

Wikipedia: Leyla Zana

Leyla Zana (born May 3, 1961), is a former female Turkish politician of Kurdish origin, who was ultimately imprisoned for speaking Kurdish in the Turkish Parliament after taking her parliamentary oath and for her political actions which were considered against the unity of Turkey. During a public speech in July 2007, she stated that "It is time to divide Turkey. Ankara should divide Turkey into states and establish the State of Kurdistan, as well as other states for every region of Turkey". She also referred to Öcalan as, "Our leader in Imralı" [1]. She was awarded the 1995 Sakharov Prize by the European Parliament, but was unable to collect it until her release in 2004.

There is no avenue for the Kurdish people to express themselves politically in Turkey. Their language is banned, and they are not even recognised as a pwople by the Turkish government, which calls them "Mountain Turks".

It's the ballot or the bullet.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See also the middle segment of this 3-part documentary.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:39:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This may be completely naïve, but have the separatists tried peaceful civil disobedience?  If so, what have been the outcomes?

Also, how much emphasis have European politicians put on Turkish mistreatment of the Kurds with respect to Turkey's EU candidacy?

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:57:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The story of Leyla Zana is all about peaceful civil disobedience.

And this is not "separatism". Originally it-s just recognition of identity, language, and self-determination. But if it becomes clear that within the Turkish state such things are not possible, you turn to separatism.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The story of Leyla Zana is all about peaceful civil disobedience.

I mean on a large scale.  One politician getting thrown in jail for speaking out does not justify the of use violence for political ends.

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:29:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One politician getting thrown in jail for speaking out

WTF?

Do I have to go and catalogue all the instances of repression of the Kurdish people before you decide that there are actual grievances fuelling popular support for the PKK? Not that I agree with the PKK's methods, or its goals, but Turkey certainly is leaving the Kurds very few options.

You piss me off sometimes.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Wikipedia page on Turkish accession makes exactly one reference to the Kurdish issue, as if it had been resolved satisfactorily.

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: Accession of Turkey to the European Union

The political reform program of the Erdoğan government continued. This included the abolition of capital punishment, crackdown on torture, and more rights for its Kurdish population. In response to these developments, the European Commission recommended that the negotiations should begin in 2005, but also added various precautionary measures. The EU leaders agreed on December 16, 2004 to start accession negotiations with Turkey from October 3, 2005. Despite an attempt by the Austrian government to offer Turkey less than full membership, EU accession negotiations were officially launched.
This was in 2000. Since then, there are at least the following questions from MEPs to the Commission (links to list of questions, from there you can get a PDF):
There is also this

EUR-Lex: THE EU'S ENLARGEMENT POLICY (COMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION, 9.11.2005)

There are still reports of the security forces using disproportionate force in the context of demonstrations. As regards freedom of religion, despite some ad hoc measures, religious minorities and communities still lack legal personality. There is an urgent need to address their problems through the adoption of a comprehensive legislative framework in line with European standards. Greater attention is being paid to women's rights, but violence against women remains a matter of serious concern.

Notwithstanding a greater tolerance for the use of languages other than Turkish, the exercise of cultural rights is still precarious. No local broadcasting in Kurdish has yet been authorised, Kurdish language courses have closed down and politicians continue to be convicted for using the Kurdish language in certain contexts. Turkey continues to adopt a restrictive approach to minorities and cultural rights.

Although there is a growing consensus on the need to address the economic, cultural and social development of the Southeast, little concrete progress has been made and the security situation has worsened since the resumption of PKK violence. Internally displaced persons continue to face a number of difficulties.



We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:37:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.

I also just found by Christopher de Bellaigue, who wrote an earlier article recommended by Talos, which suggests that with the election of Abdullah Gül as president this summer, a revised constitution may improve the situation for the Kurdish people in Turkey:

The AKP has used its power cannily in the Kurdish provinces, extending free health care and giving out schoolbooks as part of a campaign to persuade people in the partly illiterate region to send their children to school. The AKP's reputation for piety has not harmed it since many Kurds, despite the PKK's disapproving attitude toward religion, are pious as well. The Kurds appreciate the government's resistance to pressure from the armed forces to authorize an attack across the border into northern Iraq on PKK camps there.[5] But the main explanation for the AKP's popularity among the Kurds is that Erdogan, unlike his predecessors, recognizes that the Kurdish problem turns on respect for Kurdish ethnic identity, not economic and social backwardness. The government has modestly increased the Kurds' linguistic and cultural autonomy and much reduced torture in police stations, a major change. The fighting, although it continues, is less intense than it was.

The new constitution will allow, so some have said, the teaching of Kurdish as a second language in Turkish schools. It will also redefine Turkish citizenship without any reference to ethnicity. Such reforms would be popular among the Kurds, who resent the current constitution's emphasis on Turkish culture. The PKK, which has stopped demanding a separate Kurdish state, could hardly complain.

A danger for the future is that as the PKK watches the AKP gain popularity in the southeast, it may intensify its attacks on the security forces, hoping that the reaction will radicalize normal Kurds, who are mostly fed up with war. Another danger is that the Turkish army could decide to intensify the war against the PKK. That would strike another blow at Turkey's already frustrated European aspirations.

Turkey at the Turning Point

I guess only time will tell whether such constitutional revisions will be implemented -- and whether the PKK or the Turkish military will try to sabotage such conciliatory movements, as suggested in this article.

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This was in 2000.
Erdogan only became PM in 2003, and the links I provided are from 2003 except the last one about Ocalan.

My bad.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:17:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They've tried hunger strikes.  (I think eight prisoners died.)  They've tried a lot of things.

There was a relatively good series in the Christian Science Monitor a few months ago:

Why Turkey's Kurds are Ever More Edgy:

"From the end of 2005 onwards, there has been a remarkable regression of cultural rights," says Baydemir, whose broad desk is watched over by a portrait of Turkey's founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. "Currently there is no trace of the positive atmosphere from 2000 to 2005."

Turkish Kurds:  Some Back the State

Turkey's Kurds Still Prepared to Fight

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:22:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks very much.  These are very helpful.  And provided some unexpected comic relief:

[Mayor of Diyarbakir Osman] Baydemir's most recent case is prosecution for printing New Year cards in Turkish, English, and Kurdish. Some non-Kurdish officials who received them sent them back. The case was not brought because Kurdish is banned, the prosecutor explained, but because the letters X, W, and Q exist in Kurdish but not Turkish, so their use violates a law protecting Turkish letters.

The mayor responded, in court, that the prosecutor also must violate the law every day, when he logs into the Justice Ministry website, tapping the URL address that begins www.

But on a more serious note:

PKK attacks also have some Kurds angry. "Lots of people are shouting against them, 'Why are they using such violent methods?' " asks [Sezgin] Tanrikulu [chair of the bar association in Diyarbakir, winner in 1997 of the prestigious Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award]. "Especially operations against civilians. People don't support this."

He is handling a string of cases at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France, where decisions often go against Turkish authorities. Locally, Tanrikulu is now defending Baydemir, the mayor, who has been charged with "aiding and abetting the terrorist organization PKK," and faces 10 to 15 years in prison for trying to calm demonstrators during the riots last year with the words: "We share your pain deep in heart."

"In Turkey, we have lived almost everything that could be lived; war and torture...." says the mayor. "The war concept was consumed to its limits. But there is only one way we have not tried: negotiations, peace, and talking.

"Dialogue and compromise are inevitable [to end] this conflict," adds Baydemir. "We need to show Turkey the path of reason. But now there is an eclipse of reason."

That is what I was hoping to read somewhere.

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:38:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, there's more background here as part of a 40-page report by Human Rights Watch about forcibly displaced Kurdish villagers:

During the 1980s and 1990s, as part of its counterinsurgency effort, Turkish government security forces forcibly emptied an estimated 3,000 villages in southeastern Turkey. Official figures state that 378,335 villagers were displaced during this process, though the actual figure is probably much higher.5 The inhabitants of these villages were mainly Kurdish peasants and farmers, who were caught between the Turkish military forces on the one side and the Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) on the other. Their displacement not only left them homeless, but deprived them of access to their lands and livestock and of their livelihoods.

The village destruction program, as this counter-insurgency effort was known, was intended to prevent the PKK from recruiting from the villages and using them for logistical support. Local gendarmerie (soldiers who police rural areas) required village populations to enroll in the "provisional village guards" who were armed, paid, and supervised by the local gendarmerie post. Villagers were confronted with an impossible dilemma: If they became village guards they were likely to be attacked by the PKK, but if they refused village guard service then the gendarmes would forcibly, unlawfully, and often violently, evacuate and destroy their settlement.

As Human Rights Watch has reported previously,

   Evacuations were unlawful and violent. Security forces would surround a village using helicopters, armored vehicles, troops, and village guards, and burn stored produce, agricultural equipment, crops, orchards, forests, and livestock. They set fire to houses, often giving the inhabitants no opportunity to retrieve their possessions. During the course of such operations, security forces frequently abused and humiliated villagers, stole their property and cash, and ill-treated or tortured them before herding them onto the roads and away from their former homes. The operations were marked by scores of "disappearances" and extrajudicial executions. By the mid-1990s, more than 3,000 villages had been virtually wiped from the map, and, according to official figures, 378,335 Kurdish villagers had been displaced and left homeless.6
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:39:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just remembered that HRW.org is blocked within China.

But there are ways to get around that.

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:46:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh... I forgot you were in China now.  Can you use a proxy?  If you want me to excerpt more, let me know.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:50:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, thanks, I use a proxy website.  I got through to the report and only read some pages of it, but I just replied below in another comment.

The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:08:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I used to bristle at European antipathy towards Turkish membership in the EU, because I thought it was based primarily on vague "cultural" reasons about what is and is not "European" mixed with a fear of a flood of immigrants from Turkey, and I was optimistic that including Turkey in the EU would encourage more positive interchange between Europe and the Muslim/Middle Eastern world.

However, starting with this diary, Is Turkey "Civilised" Enough To Join The EU?, and specifically Article 301 of the Turkish penal code (making it illegal to publicly denigrates Turkishness or the Turkish government), I started to have second thoughts (despite
heathlander's argument in that diary that several EU countries are guilty of some of the same human rights abuses that they accuse Turkey of.)

That Human Rights report suggests that EU criticisms of Turkey's human rights record in the context of its EU candidacy has done some good with respect to the forcibly displaced Kurdish villagers:

In May 2003 the EU revised its Accession Partnership with Turkey to include a requirement that "the return of internally displaced persons to their original settlements should be supported and speeded up."12 In June 2004 the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) urged the government to "move from a dialogue to a formal partnership with UN agencies to work for a return in safety and dignity of those internally displaced by the conflict in the 1990s" and to enact provisions for compensating the displaced.13

In response to the growing calls for an effective policy toward the internally displaced, the Turkish government passed the Law on Compensation for Damage Arising from Terror and Combating Terror (Law 5233) on July 17, 2004. The law went into effect on July 27, 2004, and regulations for implementing the law were published in the Official Gazette on October 20, 2004.

The Compensation Law offered the possibility of full compensation for material losses arising from displacement--potentially a powerful and effective mechanism for restitution. It also provided a potential mechanism to begin the process of reconciliation and to underscore the government's goodwill toward a group of citizens who had been quite appallingly treated by state officials, as well as, in some cases, by illegal armed groups.



The key to culture is religion. Daniel Dennett @ TED (Feb 2006)
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:07:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I used to bristle at European antipathy towards Turkish membership in the EU, because I thought it was based primarily on vague "cultural" reasons about what is and is not "European" mixed with a fear of a flood of immigrants...

It is true that many people who oppose Turkey's accession to the EU do it for these reasons (or, for politicians like Sarkozy, to woo this electorate). But many people who are in favour of Turkey's accession (I am strongly in favour of it) acknowledge there are still important steps to be made, especially about civil liberties and human rights.

It is important to notice that potential accession to he EU has been a strong incentive for bringing political and social improvement in Turkey, not the least the an of death penalty. This is a good reason for supporting its candidacy.  

and I was optimistic that including Turkey in the EU would encourage more positive interchange between Europe and the Muslim/Middle Eastern world.

I think Turkey in the EU might help to improve relationship with Middle Eastern world, but I am not sure: Turkey is not an Arab country and its relationship with them is complex. However, I think that including a country whose main religion is Islam would help to develop cultural diversity in Europe and thus improve its understanding of the Middle East.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 05:53:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks to all who contributed to this fascinating thread. I was aware of some of the issues, but this examination has been extremely educational.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:31:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After doing a whole new batch of reading around this thread it does seem to me that Erdogan's reforms are going in the right direction. But comparing it to, say, the Basque conflict, I would say Turkey is now where Spain was maybe in the 1970's when our democratic constitution was promulgated. Lots of progress on Basque self-determination since then, but still ETA is active. So one should try to separate the issue of political empowerment for the Kurds from ending the PKK's violence.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:55:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Business | Talks over post strike break down
Talks aimed at ending strike action by postal workers have broken down.

A second 48-hour strike over pay, pensions and job cuts began early on Monday morning with up to 130,000 staff staying away from work.

The Communications Workers Union said a further week of "continuous disruption" to all services would begin next Monday if the dispute was not resolved.

Both Royal Mail and the union expressed disappointment that an eighth day of talks failed to resolve the dispute.



Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:39:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:16:45 AM EST
Jerusalem may be part of peace deal, says Israel | Israel and the Middle East | Guardian Unlimited
A senior Israeli cabinet minister said yesterday that Israel may be willing to divide Jerusalem with the Palestinians as part of a future peace agreement.

Haim Ramon said Jewish districts of Jerusalem should remain Israeli while Arab areas could be transferred to the Palestinian Authority. "Wouldn't it be the right deal today for the Palestinians, the western world and the international community to recognise [Israel's] annexation of .... [Jewish] neighbourhoods as part of Jerusalem, and for us to quit the Arab neighbourhoods?" he told Israel Radio.

Israeli and Palestinian leaders are expected to meet at a peace conference next month in Annapolis, Maryland, but a peace deal is not believed to be close.

Mr Ramon, the vice-prime minister, said decisions over the sovereignty of holy sites of Jerusalem such as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Haram al-Sharif and the Western Wall would be more complicated. "We need to say there will be a special regime in the 'holy basin', which we will talk about in the future," he said.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That won't work, right-wing israelis already forcibly settle areas of Jerusalem (and elsewhere) supposed to be allocated to palestinians. The israeli govt just stands back and encourages it by policing such behaviour to prevent resistance.

I can't see any palestinian govt agreeing to this if the israelis get to do the demarkation. the israelis have to concede ground. Claiming that occupation is a done deal will never bring peace. But frankly, given israeli aggression & intransigence, I don't think this is intended to bring peace.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:33:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Claiming that occupation is a done deal will bring 2+ million palestinian votes in a future israeli election.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:12:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kabul rejects US pleas to spray opium poppies | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
Renewed American efforts to persuade the Afghan government to use crop dusters against poppy production have failed, despite Washington dispatching a top scientist to advocate the safety of spraying herbicides.

Charles Helling met representatives of the Afghan ministries of counter-narcotics, health, and rural rehabilitation on Sunday to discuss fears over the side effects of glyphosate, one of the most effective methods for the mass eradication of opium poppies. Kabul, however, remained unconvinced.

"We have rejected the spraying of poppy in Afghanistan for good reasons: the effect on the environment, other smaller crops and on human genetics," the acting minister for counter-narcotics, General Khodaidad (who uses only one name), told the Guardian. "It was a very friendly discussion, but it is difficult to change our mind," he added.

The US maintains that the herbicide is safe for the environment and the local population. It says the misgivings of the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, are based on myth and Taliban disinformation.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:25:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to recall reading elsewhere that the objections were only marginally related to the potential toxicity of the herbicides, and more related to the notion that by depriving people of their livelihood without compensation, they will be even further radicalized, and more likely to take up arms against the government.
by Zwackus on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:09:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Glyphosate is a broad-spectrum herbicide that'll kill damn near everything. It's the sort of thing you use to kill off perennial weeds: no crops would survive it, so there's also the issue of destroying the food supply where food crops are mixed with cash crops.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:36:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Point taken.
by Zwackus on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:08:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks like Colman - and Wikipedia, and a number of other sources, including Monsanto's own web site - have fallen for Taleban myth there.

Shame on Karzai for not being reality-based enough.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
comment unnerved me for a full 30 seconds there.

A </snark> addition may have been helpful on this one...

by Nomad on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 11:06:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since when have the yanks ever worried about the consequences of their actions creating more trouble down the line ? They'd do nearly everything different if they had to capacity to plan beyond the end of their nose.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:34:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What you are missing here is the strong and immensely satisfying feeling of self-righteousness that accompanies such actions, and the way in which they create future opportunities to feel equally self-righteous about such actions.
by Zwackus on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quest for new energy supplies is becoming tougher - International Herald Tribune

HAMMERFEST, Norway: For a quarter-century, energy executives were tantalized by vast quantities of natural gas in one of the world's most inhospitable places - off Norway's northern coast, beneath the Arctic Ocean.

Bitter winds and fierce snowstorms lash the region, located 90 miles, or 145 kilometers, from the country's shoreline.

The sun disappears for two months a year. No oil company knew how to operate in such a harsh environment.

But Norway has finally solved the problem. The other day, on an island just offshore, a giant yellow flame illuminated the sky here. It was just a temporary flare for excess gas, but it signaled a new era in energy production.

Across the bay from this small fishing village, where reindeer wander the streets, one of the world's most advanced natural gas plants is coming to life. Within weeks, natural gas will start crossing the ocean in specially designed ships, feeding into the pipeline network for the eastern coast of the United States. Before Christmas, furnaces in New York and stoves in Washington will be burning the fuel. It will be the first commercial energy production from waters north of the Arctic Circle.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
there is colossal irony in exploiting global warming to create opportunities to create more global warming.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:37:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
irony is the first burr shaved off these predators' fuselage, no time for it.

narrative trumps commentary, they are creating reality, remember...

rats pressing levers, money as cocaine.

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 09:32:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Business | New South American bank planned
Seven South American countries will create a new development bank.

Following a meeting in Brazil, finance ministers said the Bank of the South would play a "central role in the new financial architecture of the region".

The bank will have its headquarters in Venezuela, the country that originated the idea.

The idea for this bank was first put forward by Venezuela's socialist President Hugo Chavez, who is keen to reduce US influence in the region.

President Chavez also wants to provide an alternative to lending organisations such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, which he sees as biased, capitalist and imperialist.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:56:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Washington Post - Leak Severed a Link to Al-Qaeda's Secrets
Firm Says Administration's Handling of Video Ruined Its Spying Efforts
By Joby Warrick

A small private intelligence company that monitors Islamic terrorist groups obtained a new Osama bin Laden video ahead of its official release last month, and around 10 a.m. on Sept. 7, it notified the Bush administration of its secret acquisition. It gave two senior officials access on the condition that the officials not reveal they had it until the al-Qaeda release.

Within 20 minutes, a range of intelligence agencies had begun downloading it from the company's Web site. By midafternoon that day, the video and a transcript of its audio track had been leaked from within the Bush administration to cable television news and broadcast worldwide.

The founder of the company, the SITE Intelligence Group, says this premature disclosure tipped al-Qaeda to a security breach and destroyed a years-long surveillance operation that the company has used to intercept and pass along secret messages, videos and advance warnings of suicide bombings from the terrorist group's communications network.

"Techniques that took years to develop are now ineffective and worthless," said Rita Katz, the firm's 44-year-old founder, who has garnered wide attention by publicizing statements and videos from extremist chat rooms and Web sites, while attracting controversy over the secrecy of SITE's methodology. Her firm provides intelligence about terrorist groups to a wide range of paying clients, including private firms and military and intelligence agencies from the United States and several other countries.

by Magnifico on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As if there is something wrong with prioritizing public relations and fear-mongering over effective intelligence gathering.
by Zwackus on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:12:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well let that be a lesson to you. The US govt has no interest in preserving intelligence assets that make you safe, just in scaring you shitless.

Ask Valerie Plame why her career was trashed.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:39:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
News reports indicate that Indian coalitiongovernment  UPA gave up on the deal which has no support in Parliament and is an obscure issue for people.

Today there was a meeting and some Congress allies played role of mediator, urging government to press the brakes on negotiations with IAEI about India-specific safeguards which are required. But the pause means that deal will not be approved by US Congress till the end of this year, and Communists are already announced their victory.

Of course government did not utter a word on this but all understand, it's just a matter of time.

I think Congress after yesterday's failed last attempt to persuade Comrades to proceed with safeguards resigned on the deal - they cannot go on in case if Communists withdraw support as they previously thought. Government was left with unsavoury choice of falling apart with Leftists and no deal or quiet burial of deal and saving government.

It seems Sonia Gandhi preferred the latter but it remains to be seen what will be next for PM Manmohan Singh who had staked his political career on the deal. Now he will have no moral authority to continue in office and likely he will be replaced.

by FarEasterner on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:46:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose that is a good thing: the US-India deal was madness, and the US Congress failed to oppose it - they even approved the necessary legislative changes to make it possible.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:11:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
this deal is murkier than it seems, if you want to deconstruct it in details Frontline had good coverage:
here and there.
The main drawback that all contentious issues were swept under the carpet and hidden behind vague phraseology. Besides, critics say total output of the deal is miniscule - Indian growing energy needs will be covered by increase in nuclear energy only for 4% and that seem too high price to pay for strategic alliance. From other side diplomatically it was coup of sorts for India as China immediately started talk niceties to India and latest round of border talks ended on optimistic note, last year growling forgotten. The question is for how long.
Domsetically Manmohan Singh is poised to pay steep political price, if he wanted to poison relations in ruling coalition he succeeded. Now it will be difficult for Congress to stitch rainbow coalition which deposed mighty BJP from power in 2004.
by FarEasterner on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 09:44:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Half a hooray. Unfortunately it means that India will continue it's misguided policy of ruinous and inappropriate hydroelctric schemes.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 08:18:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I partially agree with you on hydroelectrical schemes though India mostly reliant on coal to produce electricity. 20000 MW are planned to add in 20 years from nuclear energy when state-run electricity companies lose many times more from elementary theft. Theft is of course coming from utter poverty of population, in some states like Bihar only 17% of homes have access for electricity, others like Andhra Pradesh give erratic supply of electricity for few hours a day to all rural areas. Solution lies here - government should stop theft by subsidizing electricity to poor families and ensuring stringent punishment for thiefs and overall reduce huge losses in transmission. Besides India is blessed with tropical location and solar, wind power can make big difference, but the government unfortunately is not inclined to invest in it, preferring import of nuclaer reactors from abroad enriching foreign contractors.
by FarEasterner on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 10:01:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
_ Besides India is blessed with tropical location and solar, wind power can make big difference, but the government unfortunately is not inclined to invest in it_

it must be something in the coffee...

italy has had a similar institutional lobotomy.

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 09:45:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:17:07 AM EST
Mario Capecchi: The man who changed our world - Independent Online Edition > Science & Tech

The genetics research that won Mario Capecchi a share of this year's Nobel Prize for medicine may well help to define the science of the 21st century. But the man himself was marked, in extraordinary ways, by the turbulent history of the century before.

Mr Capecchi's grandfather, a German archaeologist, was accidentally gunned down by his own men during the First World War. His father, an Italian aviator, perished in the Second World War. He himself spent that war destitute in northern Italy after his American mother was arrested and sent to the Dachau concentration camp - a survival tale all the more remarkable for the fact that he was just four years old when his mother was taken away.

One might imagine, after a start like that, that he would develop into an artist wrestling with his demons - one thinks of Roman Polanski, who survived the Warsaw Ghetto - or a political campaigner. Indeed, Mr Capecchi first intended to study political science when, at length, he got around to a university education.

Instead, though, he came to embody the very best of the can-do spirit of that defining 20th century nation, the United States, and, with his quiet manner and rigorously methodical mind, rose to the top of his chosen field in the medical sciences.

Yesterday's prize recognises work which could have enormous implications for medicine. Mr Capecchi, of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, shares the £755,000 award with another naturalised American, British-born Oliver Smithies, of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and a Briton, Sir Martin Evans, of Cardiff University.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:23:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nobel prize for scientist who gave the world the knockout mouse | Science | The Guardian

A British scientist whose pioneering research led to the creation of legions of "knockout" mice that are genetically modified to develop human diseases was awarded a Nobel prize yesterday.

Sir Martin Evans, a professor of mammalian genetics at Cardiff University, became the first scientist to isolate stem cells from mouse embryos in 1981. The research paved the way for a technique called gene targeting, which allows scientists to alter the genetic code of an animal with exquisite precision.

By knocking out specific genes, researchers have designed mice that develop a range of medical conditions including cancer, cystic fibrosis and atherosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries.

The modified mice give researchers unprecedented insight into how some of the most debilitating human diseases progress in different tissues and organs over a lifetime, and have proved invaluable in testing new drug therapies. More than 500 different diseases have been recreated in mice using the technique.

Professor Evans, 66, was awarded the Nobel in physiology or medicine, sharing the kudos - and accompanying 10m Swedish kronor (£755,000) - with two other scientists, the Yorkshire-born Oliver Smithies, 80, now an American citizen at the University of North Carolina, and Mario Capecchi, 70, an Italian researcher based at the University of Utah. The award was announced by the Nobel committee in Stockholm yesterday.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:24:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Magic Bus Extravaganza: Thousands Gather To Salute the VW Bus - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Sixty thousand people converged in Hanover over the weekend to celebrate the 60th birthday of the Volkswagen Bus. On view were over 5,000 examples of the vehicle that would change the way people used -- and experienced -- the road.

It has been the preferred vehicle for postal workers, policemen, camping enthusiasts and, of course, members of the "Flower Power" generation. Over the weekend, 60,000 people came to Hanover for a three-day festival saluting 60 years of the vehicle that revolutionized the world.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:32:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the man who changed the world, and the vehicle who revolutionized the world. One embodies the "can do" spirit of the USA. The other - hippie losers?


the bus was very popular with the hippies in particular because it was fuel-efficient, robust and offered enough room to sleep comfortably inside. Unfortunately, the minivans and SUVs it would later inspire don't share its gas savings.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:41:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The man embodies that brain drain to the US, which is now well on its way to being reversed.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Europe | Japan teen in historic Rubik win
A Japanese teenager has won the Rubik's Cube World Championships in Hungary's capital, Budapest, taking less than 13 seconds to finish the cult '80s puzzle.

Yu Nakajima, 16, took home 5,000 euros (£3,400, $7,000) after winning the main event of the three-day tournament.

Nearly 300 contenders from 33 countries tried their hands - and feet - at the puzzle, some completing it blindfolded.

Hungarian architect Erno Rubik invented the cube in Hungary in 1974. More than 300 million cubes have been sold since.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:34:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hong Kong choking in dense smog

Hong Kong's air pollution reached dangerous levels on Monday, reigniting concerns about public health and fears that the city could lose out on crucial foreign investment due to the thick smog.

Across the southern Chinese territory, the Air Pollution Index on Monday passed the critical 100 mark, the point at which the Environmental Protection Department warns anyone with respiratory or heart problems to stay home.

At the weekend, the index reached 144. The high on Monday was 113.

The poor air quality -- which left the city's Victoria Harbour shrouded in haze -- was recorded even though many factories in the neighbouring Pearl River Delta in mainland China have been closed for a week-long holiday.

More than a dozen Hong Kong pensioners were hospitalised on Saturday alone for breathing ailments, prompting local aid charities to cry foul.

Some optimists are designing Hong Kong jungle like this:

by das monde on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's okay. China has promised that as soon as it has developed into a modern 21st century economy (by using 19th century slash and burn) they'll begin to reverse all the pollution. And no doubt ressurrect the shanghai dolphin while they're at it.

Frankly, I think china is doomed unless they stop what they're doing.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:42:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
since you're into irony, isn't it interesting that the country downwind of all china's airborne effluent is....the usa?

how do you like them apples, george?

and to think people don't believe in karma...

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 09:42:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Wales | South West Wales | Eco-village refusal recommended
Plans for an eco-village of nine small holdings built from scratch on grazing land in rural Pembrokeshire are being recommended for refusal by officials.

Lammas, the group behind the bid, said if approved, the community would be a model of low-impact green development.

The village at Glandwr near the Preseli mountains would be built from natural materials such as turf, wood and straw.

But 90 people have objected to the plan and planning officers say the application should be turned down.

It was the first to be submitted under the council's new "low impact development" policy this year.



Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 02:40:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They say it would increase traffic, have a detrimental affect on the local community and Welsh language, would depart from planning rules and "open floodgates for similar proposals."

Officers say the local infrastructure would not have the capacity to serve the development.

"Some of the activities and structures on the site and potential traffic generation are not low impact," states a report going before councillors.

The "floodgates" argument is stupid, as may be the plannign rules one, but that about increased traffic is more relevant, if true.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 03:46:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The opening the floodgates argument is hopefully linked to the area being a natural park, and so the fear that the character of the landscape will be changed. One of the projects on the site is going to produce smoked hams, if they areproducing smoked ham all the way from being piglets, then there will be quite an impact on the local landscape and sewage system.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 04:00:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wouldn't it be possible to cross out that element and leave the rest?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well the other option is that it may be coded language for "They're not from round here, middle class and English"

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 07:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The government says it wants a low-carbon economy. Yet on a green hilltop in south Wales, despite huge opposition from locals, diggers have begun excavating what will be the largest opencast coal mine in Britain. George Monbiot investigates

The diggers at Ffos-y-fran, on the outskirts of Merthyr Tydfil, are set to excavate 1,000 acres of land to a depth of 600ft. There has never been a hole quite like it in Britain, and our government's climate change policies are about to fall into it.

Everything about this scheme is odd. The edge of the site is just 36 metres from the nearest homes, yet there will be no compensation for the owners, and their concerns have been dismissed by the authorities. Though local people have fought the plan, their council, the Welsh government and the Westminster government have collaborated with the developers to force it through, using questionable methods. I have found evidence that suggests to me that a member of Tony Blair's government used false or outdated information to seek to persuade the Welsh administration to approve the pit. But perhaps the most remarkable fact is this: outside Merthyr Tydfil, hardly anyone knows it is happening.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 06:48:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
sounds like 90 people need to take a l-o-o-o-ong hike...

it'd be nice to see 900 show up to give it support!

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 09:39:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
KLATSCH
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:17:31 AM EST
Good morning! It looks like we are going to have an other lovely day - hope you too!
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:34:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Europe | Berlusconi faces new fraud charge
A Milan prosecutor has laid a new charge of false accounting against ex-Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.

Monday's charge opened a new phase in the long-running battle between the Italian judiciary and Mr Berlusconi.

It prevents the statute of limitations from expiring in a trial over the purchase by Mr Berlusconi's Mediaset empire of rights to films.

Mr Berlusconi's lawyer says his client was not involved in company business at the time of the alleged fraud.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 12:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He could always exile himself in London, like Berezovski or Thaksin.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 9th, 2007 at 01:20:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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