European Tribune

Breaking Down Roma Stereotypes

by deviousdiva
Fri Jan 11th, 2008 at 12:15:37 PM EST

Originally posted at THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY (with photographs)

Yesterday I wrote about the false perceptions that we have of the Roma. Today, I had planned to post a series of pictures that contrasted with the usual stereotypical images we normally see. So I did a search for images and the very first website that came up was Dosta!

Dosta! is a Romani word meaning Enough! and the website is an awareness raising campaign which aims at bringing non-Roma closer to Roma citizens. It is partnered with the Council of Europe and the European Commission.

Dosta! means that we want to stop prejudices and stereotypes not by denouncing them but by breaking them, showing who the Roma really are. They are not perfect, of course, but "who is?". What is sure is that Roma are European citizens: they form a group of about 10 million people and can be found in almost all Council of Europe member states; in some Central and Eastern European countries, they represent over 5% of the population.


Being European citizens means that Roma have not only duties but also rights and aspirations like everybody else, and therefore their citizenship and human rights must be recognized. Furthermore, Roma culture is a rightful part of Europe's cultural heritage: it has always contributed to the enrichment of European societies. It is now time to recognize this contribution.

I want to highlight one section which ties in perfectly with yesterdays post and with what I intended to post today about stereotypes and image. I will be posting more over the next few days. All the links lead to the actual article but I have posted each section in full under the title because I feel that it is vital that we educate ourselves and this is a subject that is rarely discussed or written about.

IS THIS A STEREOTYPE ?

Roma are freedom loving, easy going, and carefree nomads, wearing colourful clothes and lots of golden jewellery. They are passionate dancers, gifted artisans, and great musicians. Their women are beautiful and seductive like Georges Bizet's Carmen or Esmeralda from the `Hunchback of Notre Dame'. They tell fortune and can curse you if you do not give them any money. They are poor and beg. They do nothing to improve their own situation and steal gooses and chickens. They prefer to live on welfare than to work. They have more children than they can feed and clothe.

One day they will probably "out-baby" the majority population. Girls get married at a very early age, the men beat their wives and exploit their children. At night they dance around camp fires and sometimes they steal babies in order to sell them. They do not have a religion, are dirty, and a burden to society. They do not want to integrate and marginalize themselves. They are most happy when they are away from non-Roma. They do not want to be citizens of the country they live in and whenever they migrate, they ruin the reputation of the country that they have come from. They like to live close to trash dumps and their houses are very dirty. They are afraid of water, allergic to soap, and do not know how to use a water toilet. They are a source of disease. They do not know how to read and write, and somehow are not interested in learning it or in going to school. They must be mentally deficient. Maybe they are not even human beings. They live in huge family groups and do not mind to share one room with ten people. They are greedy and never satisfied. They are lazy and not trust worthy. They are genetically predestined to become thieves and drug dealers. And anyway, the term `Roma' is just an invention and they are actually called Gypsies or Tsigani.

I am sure most of you have heard some or even all of the above said about the Roma. I have certainly heard some of this even on this blog. What follows is a series of articles and pictures that aim to look at the reality and not the stereotypes. The images are all from the website and are a wonderful counterbalance to the ones we usually see of the Roma people. The text in quotes is also from the website. Please take the time to read this post in full.

Gypsies are just Gypsies

Roma are often perceived as a homogeneous group and many times they are reduced to their `Gypsyness'. They are not perceived as individuals but simply as `Gypsies'. Some people can produce the most outrageous stereotypes about Roma but then claim that they know one `who is not like that!'. Talking badly about Roma damages all Roma including the one who is supposed to be `different'. Roma who do not fit the image that others have about `Gypsies' are often not perceived as Roma. In reality there is not a single Roma who could meet all the stereotypes that exist about them.

There is a huge heterogeneity among the Roma themselves. What is true for one group might be different for another. Differentiating only between `traditional' and `integrated' Roma would be too easy: what is true for all the populations is true for Roma as well: generalisations are never true and the differences between the individuals are greater than the differences between ethnic groups.  Roma live in many different environments, speak different languages and different dialects of Romani, they can be found on all five continents, and have adopted many of the habits of the majority population of the countries they live in. They are engaged in numerous occupations, are members of different religions, and their financial and educational situation also depends from person to person, from group to group, and from the general situation of the country they live in, just as for any other citizen!

Nomadism

Roma are often perceived as carefree nomads with no significant worries: free to do whatever they want to, freedom loving, and easy going, living in tents or in caravans and dancing around fires every night. When they are hungry they just steal a chicken from a local peasant.

This almost romantic picture of Roma life is very far from reality. Only 20% of European Roma today is still nomadic, almost exclusively in Western Europe. In previous centuries nomadism was almost never a matter of free choice but of persecution. Continuous expulsion is a main feature in Roma history. Throughout the middle ages, Roma were often mistaken for Muslims and encountered the hatred of the Christian Europeans. They were not allowed to settle down or to work in many countries and thus had to find other ways of making a living. Finding a place to stay, a home is a common theme in Roma tales. During the Holocaust Roma were one of the primary targets of the Nazi regime and were sent to concentration camps all over Europe. After the end of communism many Roma fled from ethnic persecution. Again this was conceived as nomadism rather than an attempt to save their lives. Since the fall of the iron curtain countless Roma in eastern and south Eastern Europe have fallen victim to violent attacks, evictions, destruction of property, and even murder.

During the centuries settling down often meant having to abandon Roma traditions and culture. Many Roma did this, thus choosing the path of assimilation. Most of those who would have preferred to maintain a nomadic way of life fell victim to forced assimilation policies as early as in the 16th century. During communism the majority of the remaining nomads were settled down by force.

Music and Dancing

Especially in literature dancing is considered a genuine feature of Roma traditional culture and used to represent them as being `exotic'. Roma, however, do not habitually dance, unless dancing is a common tradition of the country they live in (for example in Spain and in South Eastern European countries).

Music is much more a skill or trade which served as a survival strategy than a main feature of Romani culture. Not all Roma are musicians but certain groups have specialized in it. Some have become famous after carrying out studies for making of music a profession. In many countries Roma musicians are often hired for weddings or other special occasions by the majority population. At these events they play whatever the `Gadje' want to hear rather than traditional Roma music. In addition specialists draw a clear distinction between the non-Roma folk music played in the Romani manner and real Romani traditional music - Romane purane gilia.

Fortune Telling

A common folk belief has it that Roma can curse you, for example, when you do not give them money. Others believe that they can put you into a trance and will then steal your valuables.

Roma do have in their traditions a belief system that includes omen and curses but its nature is completely different. Those few Roma who practice fortune telling do so only for the benefit of "gadje" but never among themselves.

Traditional Crafts

One of the most well known crafts practiced by Roma is that of a blacksmith. They probably acquired this skill in Armenia as many of the Romani terms which refer to this craft derive from the Armenian language. One of the main reasons why Roma were enslaved in the Romanian principalities was because they were skilled workers.

During the 500 years of slavery other crafts were also developed. Until today Romanian Roma categorize themselves according to which profession they ancestors practiced. Many Roma family names such as Gabor (smith) and Ciurar (sieve maker) refer to professions. Other professions which are typically linked to Roma are training bears (ursari), searching for gold in the rivers (aurari), or spoon making (linguran).

As many Roma were doing metalwork `Gadje' often said that Roma know the secrets of iron and of copper. Since they also practice different forms of wood work it can be added that Roma also know the secret of wood! Actually there are no real secrets, but only very developed skills, practiced as complementary crafts, indispensable for an economy based on agriculture, as also in the case of the sedentary populations.

The reality today is very different: Roma are European citizens and therefore, as any other citizen, they look for job opportunities that can enable them to fulfil their aspirations. When they have the chance of overcoming society or institutional discrimination they are employed in any sector of the job market. If those who are employed are often considered as "exceptions" is just because discrimination is the common rule.

Customs

When talking about Roma customs one has to keep in mind the Roma's diversity. There are a few customs which are similar among all Roma who still follow a traditional way of life but there are also very many customs that differ from group to group or even sometimes from family to family.

Customs among Roma just vary as the customs of the population of any European country vary from region to region.

In addition, one has to keep in mind that the majority of European Roma no longer lead a traditional way of life and do not follow or even know about the `old' customs.

In popular culture Roma are often depicted in a romantic way as beautiful, colourfully dressed people, proud and independent, life-loving and passionate, carefree and enjoying the simple pleasures in life. Their music is passionate and their women seductive. This picture is especially prevalent in literature and in paintings and is perpetuated today by groups such as `medieval' societies or `Renaissance' organizations, but cannot in any case be considered as the reality of today's European Roma

Dress

In the minds of many, all Roma wear colourful dresses and a lot of golden jewellery. Today only very few Roma still dress in this way. Among traditional groups men quite often adapt the way of dressing to their environment. Since the head is regarded as the body's focal point, they might draw attention to it by wearing large hats and wide moustaches. On special occasions, a good suit and a brightly coloured neck scarf might be worn.

Flowers, colourful skirts, blouses, and head scarves are not specific to Roma women but can be found everywhere in the East from India and Iran up to the Balkans.

Traditional Roma women had the habit of wearing long, colourful skirts, often consisting of several layers. In some traditional communities married women still demonstrate this fact by wearing a diklo, a headscarf. Traditional Roma women usually allow their hair to grow long and braid it. Jewellery was used not for its beauty but for its intrinsic value, as in other countries of the East. In times were bank accounts were unknown, carrying your valuables on you own person was seen as safer than carrying it in a bow.

Traditionally, acquired wealth was converted into jewellery or coins called galbi. Among some groups coins were worn on clothing or adornments or even braided into the women's hair.

The colours of clothes have different meanings. Red, for example, is the colour prevalent at marriage ceremonies. It does not symbolize only love, as in the West, but individual sacrifice for the collective weal. Instead of individual selfish love, traditional marriage blesses the long-term alliance between families, which become hanamik (in-laws).

Purity

Roma are often regarded as dirty. They are accused to be allergic to soap, afraid of water, and a source of disease. These are definitely stereotypes. Some Roma have limited access to fresh water because they live in isolated places without water pipes, plumbing, or indoor toilets. Finding a better place to live or improving living conditions is often difficult or impossible. The responsibility of reversing this situation stands on States and Governments which have the obligation to grant to every citizen the access to the basic social rights.

Cleanliness and purity were among the highest values of Roma traditions, both in the physical as well as in the ritual purity sense. There were very specific rules about personal hygiene, washing dishes and clothes, and about what kind of water to use. Taking a bath in a bath tub for example was forbidden, as this would mean to lie in ones own dirt.

Despite this, it is true that the life expectancy of Roma in many countries is 15 years less than that of the majority population, but again, the responsibility for this is not on the Roma who are simply the victims of lack of access to adequate utilities and to health care.

Religion

Many people think that Roma do not have a religion. This is not true. Roma usually adopt the religion of the majority population that they live among. There are Roma of Muslim faith as well as of all kind of Christian dominations: Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Evangelist etc.

Only among some traditional groups, formal religion is complemented by faith in the supernatural, in omens, and curses. These beliefs vary among different Roma groups and are influenced by the most common superstitions of the countries they live in

Women


There are two main ways of stereotyping Roma women. The first one portrays Roma women as passionate dancers, ready to seduce any man, fiery and exotic, immoral and lusty; the other as old fortune tellers ready to curse you or to put you into trance if you do not give them any money.

The second view depicts Roma women as dirty, having too many usually naked children, being beaten by their husbands and exploited by their wider family. They marry at age 11 and have the first child at age 13.

Concerning the first view it has to be pointed out that traditional Roma have very strong moral values. Premarital intercourse as well as the betrayal of the husband are traditionally unacceptable. In addition, some scholars argue that those elements of Roma dancing, which are often seen as seductive, are in fact relic of Indian temple dances, which were not intended to be seductive at all. Music, dancing, and fortune telling, which are seen as integral elements of Roma culture by many, were in fact a means of making a living.

Concerning the second view, the difficult living conditions which many Roma face have to be taken into account. Lack of utilities such as running water, having no clothes for children, or eventual cases of domestic violence are indicators of poverty but not of `Gypsyness'.

Children

Since birth rates among Roma are generally higher than among non-Roma, it is feared in many countries than Roma will out-baby the majority population. No one looks at the positive aspect of this, i.e. that Roma, as well as the immigrant population, indirectly help to combat Europe's population ageing.

Roma children are often seen as filthy beggars or pick pockets. Their parents do not seem to look after them well and are assumed to be ready to exploit them. Roma parents love their children just as much as any other parents. Children are adored and cherished and the whole family feels responsible to raise a child. The ways Roma children are raised might differ from that of the majority population and reflects the harsh reality in which Roma live in. Roma children grow up in traditional families and mostly learn by example and not by teaching. This learning method is also used by other people who live in harsh environments and cannot dedicate a lot of time to teaching (for example the Inuit, who are pejoratively called Eskimos). Learning by example includes processes of observation, imitation, and, later on, participation.

If some Roma children are seen begging or caught pick pocketing, this should be regarded as an indicator of the harsh social climate in which their specific community has to live. In this respect, is interesting to quote the Italian Ministry of Internal affairs, Mr. Giuliano Amato, who said -during a visit to a Roma settlement in Roma, Italy, on 15 August 2006- "the recognition of Roma rights is a European topic which concerns everybody; Italy is one of the countries where the Roma minority is not recognised; nonetheless Italian Roma are ready to be part of Italian society but they face too many difficulties for integrating the school system and getting a job. One cannot simply believe that Roma children are criminals by nature: one should look at the reasons and conditions that push some Roma children to become criminals"

Financial Situation

Roma are usually conceived as either extremely poor or as incredibly rich.

If they are poor then this must be due to their laziness. If they are rich then this is most likely a `proof' of drug dealing or other forms of illegal businesses.

In reality, poverty nowadays is often due to the fact that Roma have been left out of the post-communist political and economic transitions. Still today, they are discriminated and often excluded from the school system (see next section); they face discrimination when seeking for a job, and in many countries they are segregated in geographically isolated settlements. In some cases, their situation excludes them from the social protection benefits (institutional discrimination). As a consequence, many Roma today are trapped in a vicious circle of poverty and social exclusion which cannot be considered as their own fault.

Education

Many non-Roma tend to believe that Roma do not value education. This is, to a certain extent, true when it comes to very traditional families and only with regard to formal education.

What is true is that poor education levels today are a major obstacle for Roma to access the labour market. Educating Roma children is thus seen as essential in overcoming poverty.

However, Roma children who want to go to school have to face many obstacles. For those Roma who live in isolated settlements, the way to school alone becomes a hurdle. Furthermore, parents might lack the financial means for buying proper clothes, shoes, school supplies, and food for their children. Exclusion from the part of the teachers and schools is also an issue. Many Roma children are forced to attend separated classes in order not to mix with children coming from the majority population. In many countries Roma children are overrepresented in special schools or classes for mentally disabled children. In 2006 several anti-Roma demonstrations organised by the parents of non-Roma students took place in different European countries at the entrance of de-segregated schools in which Roma children were enrolled.

In many countries Roma children are overrepresented in special schools or classes for mentally disabled children. This is often part of public policy: in some areas the special schools are the only ones which have a school bus and offer free school lunches. Also the children whose mother tongue is Romani, might for example not completely control the majority language: in these cases the presence of a Roma school mediator could help in making the children learn more rapidly; unfortunately, the role of the Roma school mediator is not institutionalised. Parents are often recommended to have their children sent to special classes without receiving an explanation of the whole meaning and consequences of this.

In addition, text books often spread a negative image of Roma or completely ignore their role in history. And of course, Roma history is not included in the schools' curriculum.

Even those Roma, who go to regular schools, prestigious high schools or university, often face discrimination. Many teachers and professors think that it is shameful to teach Roma students at their renowned institution. For this reason Roma students are often discouraged from going to high school or from applying for a good one. They are often told that they won't `make it' anyways.

Employment

Roma are often seen as work shy and as voluntarily living on welfare rather than looking for a job. This picture is far from the reality of most Roma. There would be no point in denying that there are some Roma who prefer to live on welfare just as much as this phenomenon can be found in other ethnic groups, included in the majority population. The crucial question, however, is not if Roma want to work but what kind of employment they can find, if any: Roma are virtually invisible in the service sector. There are almost no Roma taxi drivers, shop assistants, kitchen workers, waiters, or door men. It goes beyond the imagination of many to employ a Roma house cleaner, let alone a baby sitter.

If Roma find employment then it is usually in physically demanding, often dangerous, and badly paid jobs. In many cases the transport to and from work already consumes the biggest part of the salary. Roma are hired as garbage collectors, field hands, or as forestry labourers, thus in the least prestigious work places. Legal work is often denied, forcing Roma to work  in the black market. While unemployment rates are generally high in Eastern Europe, the rate of Roma unemployment (in some settlements as high as 100%) in no way compares to that of the majority population. Improving educational levels alone will not be enough for ensuring better employment of Roma. A change in attitude also has to take place on the side of the employers and of the National Employment Agencies. Nothing can change as long as common stereotypes about Roma are not being questioned. What speaks against hiring a Roma to do qualitative and responsible work? Many non Roma cannot support the idea of hiring (a qualified) Roma for superior positions. Employers are often unwilling to even hire Roma as contract workers and thus force them to work black.

Housing

Many people seem to believe that Roma prefer to live in unhygienic housing conditions. While there are surely many Roma who live without running water, indoor toilets, electricity, and heating it would be hard to find a single Roma who would not like to exchange these conditions for a nice house or apartment. Many Roma live close to trash dumps, or in isolated settlements without utilities because these are the only places where they are allowed to stay.

Unlawful forced and collective evictions of Roma are a weekly phenomenon in Europe (often not reported by Media), clearly infringing the obligations undertaken by European countries through the signature of international treaties.

Improving the infrastructure of Roma settlements is one of the top goals of today's Council of Europe policies. Unfortunately many governments are reluctant or slow to invest into better housing for Roma. (  See for example Council of Europe recommendation on improving the Housing conditions of Roma where it is stated:

"Member states should establish a legal framework that conforms with international human rights standards, to ensure effective protection against unlawful forced and collective evictions and to control strictly the circumstances in which legal evictions may be carried out. In the case of lawful evictions, Roma must be provided with appropriate alternative accommodation, if needed, except in cases of force majeure"

Roma and Society

Roma are often depicted as untrustworthy and unwilling to integrate into society. But when too many non-Roma do not trust Roma it is very difficult to continue willing to be part of a whole. `Integration' usually means the loss of Roma culture without being fully accepted by the majority population. Even educated Roma who have lived inside the majority population all their lives often face exclusion. The fear of being rejected is sometimes so present that some Roma have to hide their ethnic origin in order to continue living in the society instead of on the fringes of it. As long as marrying a Roma or allowing one's children to do so is still a taboo for many, there can be no talk about the Roma's unwillingness to integrate. Self-marginalization, when it is the case, is and has been a survival strategy rather than a free choice.
 

Passivity


Many people accuse Roma of not doing anything in order to improve their own situation. This accusation concerns their financial situation as well as employment, education, or housing.

One has to keep in mind, however, that half of Europe's Roma were enslaved for 500 years. During this time learning how to read and write or revolting against inhuman treatment was forbidden and harshly punished. Killings of Roma under slavery were so common that many cases were not even registered. Even today violence against Roma often goes unnoticed. Centuries of forced passivity make it hard to encourage human rights movements today. Demanding your rights is still dangerous. Roma activists in many countries face harassment and physical violence by the authorities as well as by the police.

Reputation

In many eastern European countries the majority population claims that the Roma ruin their country's reputation when they migrate to other countries. Apart from the fact that reputation is not a concept used in Western politics, it is the treatment of the Roma and not the way that they behave, which can be held against the states, from which they have come.

In a recent poll 70% said that Roma should be denied the right to foreign travel, even when all legal conditions are met.

The Romanians also view Roma as tarnishing the country's international image and, in particular harming the country's prospects for integration into Europe. This was aggravated last year when high profile articles appeared in the French media claiming that Romania's Roma immigrants were responsible for rising crime rates in France. Other European media followed suit. As a result, the French government imposed stiff visa restrictions that affected all Romanians. The French government has since withdrawn these restrictions but damage to the Roma's image remains. (Source: NDI report `Roma Political Participation in Romania' February 2003).

In September 2006 a member of the European parliament, of Roma ethnicity, fell victim to the racist attacks of a Bulgarian parliamentary observer. Since this incident happened on the day when it was decided that Bulgaria and Romania would join the European Union the question arose if human and minority rights are really valued in Bulgaria.

Crime


Many people seem to believe that Roma are genetically inclined to commit crimes. This is nonsense. In many cases Roma are the first to be suspected of having committed a crime but the last to be rehabilitated when proven innocent. Whenever Roma do commit crimes the whole community is stigmatised and therefore judged and condemned for the act of an individual.

Theft

Common stereotypes depict all Roma as thieves. This is again the consequence of judging a whole community for the acts of individuals who just belong to the community. Every society has its thieves and criminals, but not for that the whole group is systematically stigmatised, as it happens to Roma.

Recognition of the crimes of which Roma were victims is, on the contrary, hard to obtain. Does anyone ever think about the things that have been stolen from the Roma? Roma were victims of the Holocaust: their valuables, especially gold, were taken from them before they were sent to death. In today's post communist transition period, Roma often fall victim to pogroms or unjust forced evictions, during which their property is often being destroyed.

Drugs

There surely are some Roma who deal in drugs just as much as you can find drug dealers in basically any country in the world. Roma are not genetically inclined to deal with drugs nor is drug dealing a part of Roma culture. When it does occur it should be regarded as yet another indicator of the hardships Roma face when trying to enter the `normal' work market and of the resulting poverty, just as it happens to all vulnerable groups, including those belonging to the majority population.

Roma Steal Babies

The myth that Roma steal babies is centuries old. Even today it is often repeatedly told. In 2006, Romanian press reported about a Roma women who had kidnapped a non Roma child. It later turned out that the women was not Roma but Romanian. Of course this fact did not hit the news. When Roma children are kidnapped by non-Roma, fall victim to violence, or are murdered this is hardly ever becomes a public scandal.

Please visit the Dosta! website for more about the campaign to raise awareness of Roma people and Roma rights.

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Thanks for this. I am very sympathetic to gypsies as I have learnt a lot about them through my study of bellydance history. The pre-eminent dance-historian on the planet, a New Yorker internationally famed as Morocco, is herself Rom and very keen to stomp on all the mythologies about gypsies that exist within this dance. Sadly it is a never-ending task, but she tries....

This essay Please call me rom may be of interest. Although most scholars believe that the Rom (and sister tribes) left Punjab in the 5th rather than 12th century.

ps I thought of you recently as I will be spending some time in SE Bulgaria in the next year or so, which is only up the road from you.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 at 02:55:19 PM EST
If you have the time, the best book I ever read on 'Gypsies' and the Roma tradition in general is Bury Me Standing by Isabel Fonesca. Brilliantly and poetically written, erudite and sympathetic. You couldn't ask for a better guide if you're interested in learing about 'Gypsies' and their journey.
by delicatemonster (delicatemons@delicatemonster.com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 01:03:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hee, it's already sitting on my bookshelf waiting to be read. Thanks tho'.

Another book that's good for this subject, even if only tangentially concerned is "A trade like any other" by Karin van Niewkerk. It's based on extensive research about dancers and singers in Egypt, a subject that has to invovle the Rom and Sinti and has many mentions of their dialects and sources.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 04:21:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this diary... I learned a lot about the Roma by watching the film "Latcho Drom"... it was one the best films I have ever seen. It was fascinating to watch the musical form change, yet retain its essence, as the Roma made their way from India to the Middle East and then to various countries in Europe. I do hope the European racism against the Roma fades away... maybe in this internet, globalized era there is a greater chance of that.
by sandalwood on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 at 03:53:02 PM EST
Good link you found, a catalogy of all this shit, will be a good reference in the future.

This one:

A common folk belief has it that Roma can curse you, for example, when you do not give them money.

...was a stereotype I wasn't familiar with until recently. Then a friend told of his visit to a folk festival at a Transsylvanian village, and a funny event: while local youth were washing in a creek, an old Gypsy woman came out of the woods, then spit out and said something, upon which all the boys became scared and doled out money to her. I guess a fitting tax for superstitious prejudice/stupidity...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 at 04:49:26 PM EST
Leaving aside the extraordinary inappropriateness of "deviousdiva" as a nickname for an author trying to dispel "stereotypes" about Roma, it's worth asking what would remain of any ethnic identity once the "stereotype" disappeared.

The answer is probably nothing.

All the usual complaints about ethnic groupoids revolve around the absence of bourgeois virtues. Are the Roma thrifty and predictable? Will they pound their children into the passive prison of the schools? Sit still! Obey! Be tidy! Anything else is unthinkable, wrong, unreliable, nasty, perverse, or... to sum it all up in a single word...

Ethnic.

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.

by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 05:48:26 AM EST
Leaving aside the extraordinary inappropriateness of "deviousdiva" as a nickname for an author trying to dispel "stereotypes" about Roma

Please explain.

All the usual complaints about ethnic groupoids revolve around the absence of bourgeois virtues.

No. A good deal of the anti-Roma "complaints" alive today in Central and Southeastern Europe revolve around the absence of peasant virtues.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 07:34:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Goodness. I'm ALMOST sorry I missed this whole discussion ! (I was busy right after I posted)
I assume that FPS Doug is just clutching at straws? My nickname is very old, nothing to do with the Roma or indeed anything I write here. Feel free to call me DD if devious bothers you.

Thanks all for the support of this issue. I've missed being here! I won't promise to post more but I do intend to.
deviousdiva

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 06:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's good to see you here, deviousdiva, and it's a pity this diary got trollish attention. Do post again whenever you can.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 03:03:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The author is not Roma herself, so I don't know what her handle has to do with Roma stereotypes.

Ethnic [cultural, not genetic] identity is defined from within the ethnic group concerned, stereotypes are both defined from within and from without, sometimes in agreement and sometimes with opposing implications.

What is an ethnic groupoid? A category where all morphisms are invertible, with an ethnic property?

Yes, that seems to be the meaning of ethnic when used from a bourgeois point of view. But it has meanings also from outside that point of view. Just like with stereotypes. Or like the difference between "colored people" said by American southern whites, and "people of color" said by the "people of color" themselves.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 07:40:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, well put. With my focus on the non-unitariness and limited fit to reality of both insider identities and outsider stereotypes, I lost sight of the difference.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 07:52:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you don't see anything funny about "deviousdiva" as a nickname for someone trying to refute the stereotype of Roma women as temptresses and sorceresses, maybe it would help to imagine someone poking you in the ribs with the elbow pictured below and screaming "Harharharhar!!!!"


Free Image Hosting at allyoucanupload.com


About groupoids... Like all sorts of other mathematical terms with the suffix -oid, a groupoid is something like a group but with a little less definition. An algebraic, as opposed to a category-theoretical groupoid is associative, but not all products are defined, etc. Likewise, stripped of all conceivable differences from the rest of the population, you get an ethnic "groupoid" instead of a group.

About "peasant virtues"... If the Roma only had to worry about prejudice among the infinitesimal minority of Europeans who still respect "peasants" and their virtues, they wouldn't have much to worry about. Absence of the "bourgeois virtues" is a much more serious offense, and likely to produce poverty and contempt all over the EU.

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.

by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 08:43:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
infinitesimal minority of Europeans who still respect "peasants" and their virtues

Just how much of Europe do you know really? London? Your arrogant bloviations notwithstanding, the ratio of rural and agrarian population is still high in these parts.

[ET Moderation Technology™] If you keep confronting other users on such light basis as their username, and start image spamming again, your posting rights will be curbed again.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 09:33:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you miss about a million stories like this?

Did you somehow miss the constant decline in the rural population of France, documented here and in about a zillion other sources.

Who are you to dictate matters of courtesy, with your silly insults about "arrogant bloviations?"

You couldn't even define "image spamming" if you tried, unless you defined it as any image YOU personally don't like.

I replied in detail to questions about my previous post, and all you have to come back with is schoolyard bully name-calling and threats.

Pathetic!

 

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.

by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 09:57:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo's talking about Central-Eastern Europe, not France.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 09:59:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read about it in Greece here.

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 10:04:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's also a whole collection of references here.

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 10:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read about it here.

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 10:09:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you notice that basically agricultural countries like Poland are vanishing. The whole country, the whole population is disappearing into urban centers in the EU, as described here.

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 10:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A little social history of Finland, for anyone who happens to know nothing whjatsoever about it.

from http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25785

  Post-war demographic changes have been quite radical in Finland. Notably in the 1960s, Finland saw what may have been the fastest rural depopulation among the western industrial countries, and a corresponding change in the structure of the economy. More than 600 000 people left primary production. Manufacturing was no longer creating new jobs, but the tertiary sector absorbed some 300 000 new employees. In ten years, urban population figures increased by about 600 000 and the urbanization rate went up from 38.4% in 1960 to 50.9% in 1970. Rural depopulation continued, with people moving from the outlying areas of rural municipalities to the centres. Thus, rural municipalities took on an increasingly urban character

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.

by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 10:20:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A little description of the decline of rural life in the Czech Republic is available at http://www.network-sbc.cz/eng/rozvoj.htm

The basic problems of Czech agriculture and rural areas

Agriculture

Long term and virtually permanent unprofitability of the agricultural sector
Extremely large indebtedness of most agricultural enterprises
Long-term very low returns on capital
Growing area of abandoned land and a devastation of cultural landscape as a part of national wealth
20% of agricultural land is located in protected areas with imposed environmental restrictions for farming
Declining technological competitiveness of the agri-food sector manifested by deteriorating possibilities for sales of Czech agri-food products on the domestic market and by reduced exports
Decline of gross agricultural output by about one third (to some 45% of per hectare output in the EU), caused by increased imports of subsidised foodstuffs but also by reduced domestic consumption
Inadequate structure of labour in agriculture (high average age, inadequate structure of labour qualification
Lower interest in studying agricultural subjects
Insufficient and delayed response to progressing globalisation of world agri-food market, uncertain future of businesses
Rural areas

Regional development lagging behind especially as regards mountain, highland and border regions
Ageing of rural population,
Growing social tensions and depopulation of rural areas, especially as regards those with less favoured conditions;
Shortage of rural jobs outside of agriculture,
Deepening problems with transport accessibility,
Shortage of technical infrastructure in rural areas,
Shortage of funding to support young families in rural areas.
The accessibility of villages by public transport and their connection to administrative centres has deteriorated over the last decade. For many villages, there is no public transport at all, while others are connected with the outside world only on school days. The disintegration of public transport system made it more difficult and sometimes impossible for rural inhabitants to find jobs after they lost their jobs in agriculture.



Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
by FPS Doug on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 10:26:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While it makes little sense to debate someone with the intellectual level and/or honesty to confuse trends (decreasing rural population) with absolute levels ("infidesimal minority"), to view Britain, Spain, France or Finland as "these parts", not to mention originating current stereotypes in the current or even future structure of the population; it is worthwile to quote actual data on the current level of the population from which many of the anti-Gypsy stereotypes in Central and Southeastern Europe originated. (Note though: with settled Gypsies living predominantly in villages in many of these countries, and often finding jobs as temporary agricultural workers, Roma form not insignificant part of these statistics.)

Using Eurostat's figures for total population in 2005 and the narrowest measure of agricultural population, one covering a large part of peasants, 2005 family farm labour force (which excludes children below compulsory education age, hired agricultural workers, family members not having a part in farm work, and rural population with other jobs):

Romania (the country with the largest Roma/Gypsy poulation): 38.95%
Greece: 13.6%
Poland: 13.2%
Bulgaria: 13.1%
Hungary: 13.1%
Cyprus: 10.5%
Slovenia: 10.2%
Slovakia: 2.95%
Czech Republic: 0.66%

(Sadly, no data for not-yet-EU Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Albania, Turkey, Moldova, Ukraine.)

...while, for scale, in the EU-15 minus Greece:
Portugal: 7.2%
Ireland: 5.7%
Italy: 5.35%
Austria: 5.05%
Spain: 4.6%
Finland: 2.7%
France: 1.14%
Netherlands: 0.98%
Germany: 0.97%
UK: 0.85%

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 01:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Leaving aside the extraordinary inappropriateness of "deviousdiva" as a nickname for an author trying to dispel "stereotypes" about Roma

Huh.  Far less inappropriate, I'd say, than a diary about Pakistan and Benazir Bhutto by somebody whose username refers to shooting people in the head.

But most people here would prefer to discuss the substance of DD's diaries, not bizarre non-issues drummed up for no reason.

Time to check the bottles on the dresser and make sure they haven't gotten mixed up.  The breath mints are the one on the right, the Aripiprazole is on the left.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Jan 12th, 2008 at 10:18:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
lol stormy !

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing
by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Sun Jan 13th, 2008 at 08:16:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As an American, I have really not encountered Roma either in person or even in our consciousness.  It seems to be a European characteristic even though I understand there are lot's of Roma in the US.

It is sad to say, but the only impression of Roma came from old Lon Cheney movies when I was eight years old.  Johnny Depp seemed to lend a better impression in Chocolat with Juliett Binoche, but still, it was the wandering Roma stereotype.

I have encountered Roma in Moscow, however.  Again, stereotypes: the fortune teller on the Arbat and street urchins on the Metro.  I've seen a large nomadic camp in Düsseldorf along the bus route I took to the Goethe Institute.

And that is it, that is all the data input I've ever had concerning Roma.

But I always thought it would be neat to spend some time with traditional Roma.  I've been told that would be impossible, they do not allow outsiders in.  I don't believe this is the case, however.  In 1985 while stationed in the Sinai, I spent a weekend with Bedoin, that was really neat.  When I lived in Dortmund, my neighborhood had a Turkish cultural day.  Not only did I eat well, but I asked questions of people about their culture as it was entirely alien to me.  Their response was surprising, not that they were very open and enjoyed telling me about themselves, but that someone had actually asked.  I have a feeling it may be the same with Roma.

So this diary was very informative as well as the Dosta website, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

One thing I thought missing was a commentary on Roma writers and literature, artists and works?  As well as their struggles for recognition.  Not just works on social problems as mentioned above, but literary works.  Who are some of the Roma's literary writers?

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 03:36:56 AM EST
Unfortunately, the Roma as a permanent discriminated minority gathered plenty of reasons to be suspicious of outsiders, especially in Southeast Europe. It's not as bad as for immigrants or other nomads but much worse. (Read this post by DD.)

My cultural anthropologist brother says that the sociologists and cultural anthropologists colleagues studying more traditional (who, again, are a minority) or more impoverished and segregated families need weeks of adaptation time until they are accepted by them and talked to openly. That also goes with being 'white'; see DD's instant acceptance when that doesn't factor.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 05:28:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
very unfortunate, but understandable.
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 05:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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