Metaphysics of the coming age

by Gaianne
Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:31:29 AM EST

Of course you will be wanting me to justify or defend this title.  So perhaps I had better admit at the outset that I cannot.  Nobody knows what the coming age will be, nor what metaphysics it will either accept, or require.  Nonetheless, that is where I would have us turn our minds, for consideration and speculation.  

This is, obviously, a heat-generating topic.  Metaphysics is like religion, indeed, as it is concerned with the fundamental structure and meaning of the world (or of life) it IS religion, where religion exists.  And where religion does not, metaphysics takes on the religious passion.  

But I would have us consider it anyway, because whatever we believe, it is likely to change.  Circumstances alone will see to that.  My goal here is not to seek agreement, but to find possibilities--more important than what is precluded (although some notions will be being shed) is what is allowed.  


I write as a progressive who no longer believes in progress.  This is an embarrassing thing.  But progressivism was born in the apparent abundance of rising empire, and in the idea that if wealth is plentiful, then it OUGHT to be shared out (rather than horded by a few), but as abundance visibly disappears, the spiritual aspects of progressivism (to me, the most important part) lose their material support.  Now what?  

I should also admit at the outset that I am an apostate from science.  I indulge some personal history to explain what that is and how it came to be:  

I grew up, as a child, in a context of intermittent violence and pervasive lying (and lying about the lying) so that it was natural and inevitable that I was drawn to mathematics, where the truth was both knowable and provable.  This became both a career and an emotional anchor.  

The irony, of course, is that unbeknownst to me, a century earlier the idea of truth had already run into trouble.  The problem was the parallel postulate of Euclidean Geometry, which has several equivalent forms, but is readily visualized as stating that through any point outside a given line, there is exactly one line through that point parallel to the given line.  For centuries mathematicians had thought that postulate should be a theorem, proved as a consequence of the other postulates, but had failed to find the proof.  

In the middle of the 19th century, in something like desperation, mathematicians decided to reverse their approach, to try assuming the postulate false, and see what kind of geometry would result.  

Riemann became known for postulating that there are NO parallel lines.  The result is a Geometry quite unlike Euclid's, but nevertheless completely consistent.  All doubt about the validity of Riemann's work was perforce dispelled when a "model" of his Geometry was found:  

Let a "point" be defined as any pair of antipodes of a sphere, and let a "line" be defined as a great circle on the sphere (a circle on a plane that passes through the center), and then Riemannian Geometry becomes equivalent to Spherical Geometry, which had already been being used by navigators for several centuries.  

The alternative contradiction was also tried, and, skipping over the issues of theft and precedence (the practice of mathematics is truly a catfight), what was found is that you could construct a Geometry ("Hyperbolic" Geometry) assuming that there are INFINITELY MANY parallels through the given point.  This can be modeled in several ways.  My favourite way  makes use of a hyperboloid of two sheets:

t sq - x sq - y sq = 1  

under the (non-Pythagorean, non-Euclidean, specifically) Minkowski metric for arc-length

dx sq + dy sq - dt sq = ds sq.

This is a hyperboloid of revolution and is the natural analogue of a sphere.  We use great hyperbolas on the surface of the hyperboloid (hyperbolas that lie on planes that pass through the center) to be the "lines" while again antipodes are the "points."

This is the natural environment for Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity.  

If it is hard to visualize, project it onto a disc:  "Lines" become circles cutting the edge of the disc at right angles, and "points" become points inside the disc.  This mapping is "conformal," meaning angles are preserved.  (Distances are another matter; never mind about distances.)  This mapping is the basis of several beautiful lithographs by M. C. Escher:  "Heaven and Hell,"  "Circle Limit I," and "Circle Limit III."  

The point of these models is that they show non-Euclidean Geometries are as logically justified as Euclidean Geometry.  But because they are all different, they CANNOT ALL BE TRUE.  This was the problem.  

The solution was to retreat FROM truth TO consistency.   All three Geometries are consistent.  Only consistency is real; truth is a matter of convenience (within consistency, please!).  

Worse was to come.  

Not only the new Geometries, but also difficulties in Calculus (among other things) had led to a desire for a more careful description of Logic itself.  The idea was that Logic should become like Arithmetic--a matter of pure calculation--and this was epitomized in the program of Hilbert to convert the whole of mathematics into funny little symbols that would be manipulated according to formal, rigid rules.  Leaving aside that the result can in no way be described as human-friendly (the resemblance to low-level computer code is more than accidental), the program seemed to be working:  Mathematics was now on a reliably consistent (if unreadable) footing.  

And so it remains--sort of.  The problem is that already in the 1930s Goedel showed this formal system was necessarily too small, "incomplete."  There are true theorems of Arithmetic that can be stated formally, but have no formal proof.  If Arithmetic is itself consistent--AS WE ALL BELIEVE!!!--it's own consistency is one of those theorems.  

Arithmetic is consistent if and only if its consistency cannot be formally proved.  (Head explodes.)  

This is no joke.  

Now, it is not like two and two are suddenly going to start adding up to five.  But for a system obsessed with consistency and proof, Goedel's Incompletenesss Theorem is a bomb planted right at the foundation.  

By the time I was up to speed with this, several decades had passed, and as it happened, my own career was falling apart.  (Also my mind.)  Mathematicians paid no attention--no, had DECIDED to pay no attention--to the trouble at the foundations of their subject, an attitude I found increasingly difficult to live amidst.  

Logicians did not feel the same freedom to put their fingers in their ears while singing loudly--it was their own subject, after all.  Many (not all) were becoming very interested in Taoism, and this was not an accident.  It was beginning to occur to them that their field might not be rooted in the Solid Rock of Certainty, but was rather floating on a Fog of Mystery.  For centuries the Taoists have been teaching that you can trust that Fog.  

What other choice do you have?  

In my own case, this led me to Zen Buddhism, which is a very concrete spiritual practice, based on trusting the Fog.  But nothing in Buddhism requires one to be apostate from science, so let me explain further:  

Mathematics was not the only field finding limitative results, for example, physics was simultaneously going through wave after wave of them.  First, Relativity set boundaries on available energy--vast, vast boundaries that, tantalizingly, we have no idea how to reach--yet boundaries they were.  Then Quantum Mechanics set boundaries on what is knowable.  

Worse, Quantum Mechanics directly contradicted our notions of how the physical world works.  Nick Herbert in his book Quantum Reality has described eight different approaches to possible (mutually incompatible) world-views that are compatible with quantum mechanics.  None are compatible with the Western mind.  

So now I get to how I became apostate:  Both mathematicians and physicists have chosen to turn away from the import of their own discoveries, in a sort of mental cowardice.  Not the least of the many ironies of our time is that these various limitative results have created rich possibilities, especially for creating clever toys, and the attraction of the toys has served to mask the underlying difficulty.  

Which is that the world absolutely does not work the way we think it does.  

How does the world work?  Nobody knows.  Some OTHER way.  Scientists have abandoned the field, clinging to solutions they already know are inadequate.

So I am apostate.  What of it?  All it really means is that I can expand my field of inquiry a bit.  To wander off a bit.  There is nothing in this that implies an ability to CONTRADICT science, just a recognition that science is missing a lot.  

This brings me to what I was thinking was my real point:  Even as we are reaching the limits of what the Western mind is willing to contemplate, the circumstances of peak oil, climate change, biosphere destruction, and consequent civilization collapse are going to require an utter rearrangement of that mind.  

What rearrangement?  I make vague guesses.  I try to find what we can know or learn about people who lived sustainably.  What did they think?  How did they think?  Example here and here.  Surely this example is not reachable by us, being too fragile under external hostility, which is one constant of modern life, but it can at least open our mental field.  Also, note how childrearing is key.  

Then again, we are unlikely to reach sustainability soon.  A preceding period of catabolism is likely, and Archdruid considers some possibilities.    

Update [2008-1-2 7:7:56 by Gaianne]: Sorry about that last link. When you get there, you have to click on "show original post."

What is worth saving?  There are aspects of Western Civilization that I am sure we would like to save; I am equally sure we would disagree on what they are.  But CAN they be saved? How?  

Some things are certainly going to go.  The cancer-mind drug-binge we call capitalism (aka debt-based money aka empire aka taking without giving back) is one of them, though whether it goes before or after planetary destruction is a very intense and anxious question.  Are there any direct ways to bail out of this one?  I know that some folk here on ET have thoughts--can they be represented in a way that we can assess and utilize?  

I should say for myself that I have moved on a bit from Zen Buddhism--though it is surely a good practice--finding it a bit austere.  For several years now I have been mucking about in paleo-astronomy:   This is a vast and interesting subject that includes, firstly, the cycles of the sky--ignored and forgotten by the modern mind--and secondly their relationship to the rhythms of life.  Though, seemingly, these rhythms were thought to be given by the Gods (not a bad approach, really) it was always an active process to bring them into one's daily life, and the key point is that living in those cycles CHANGES MIND.  It is one key to a sacred life.  That this is an important key to sustainable mind seems likely.  

CODA:

When I was learning musical counterpoint, after I had (finally) learned what a melody was, I was surprised at how many (real) melodies could be written to a given melody (cantus firmus) to make a harmony.  In a class of twenty students no two were ever the same.  Sometimes I was envious (and sometimes not).  But within the constraints, the possibilities were all valid.  

Metaphysics itself grew up as part of the philosophy of the Classical Greeks, at a time when faith in the Gods was collapsing.  So it sought a different basis of support--logical argument.  The study of Logic has been so successful, however, that it is now clear a strictly logical support of a metaphysics is not possible--we cannot even do as much for a technical study like Arithmetic!  But, in truth, logical support of a metaphysics is not really necessary.  It must SURVIVE Logic, but beyond that it can be whatever it wants to be and circumstances allow.  

What will circumstances allow?  

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by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:32:48 AM EST
Wow, thank you for a wonderful insight into mathematics (that even I could understand).

European Tribune - Comments - Metaphysics of the coming age

paleo-astronomy

I have never heard of this before, but it makes sense. I do believe that our living against the natural cycles are  one the reasons for the malaise of modern life. Is there any literature or other readings you can recommend to get a peek of what paleo-astrology is about?
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:48:19 AM EST
For me, it has been a long and winding road.  Robert Graves' very interesting book The White Goddess was certainly my inspiration and starting point, and yet, there is much that he gets dead wrong, (never mind I don't believe his central thesis of the alphabet encoding a particular sacrifice ritual) making it hard to recommend him as a source.  He is a poet rather than a scholar, and that is how he has to be read.  

From there I tracked back to things like Isaac Azimov, Moon over Babylon which contains a good description of Planetary Hours--a concept in astrology--but like modern astrologers, he does not seem to know what the planetary hours were actually good for.  Realizing the import was a major breakthrough.  

Clues turn up here and there.  The Ballad of Thomas the Rhymer was one.  I was sitting in a concert at a Pagan Festival when I heard it performed for the first time.  I was astonished.  That was when the Planetary Hours clicked into place.  

In Richard Feynman's Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman he describes besting the archaeologists in a matter involving Mayan codices and astronomy--specifically picking out the 11959 day Mayan eclipse cycle.  Actually, the cycle of eclipses is 11960 days, and the one day discrepancy is a further hint.  

I spent a month surfing the net reading about the Mayan Calendar.  There is less there than you think.  Much drivel and absurdities.  But again, some good clues.  

But before all of this was cracking out an ordinary Astronomy text and making comparisons of planetary constants.  Ratios of synodic periods are the key.  Since, fortunately, the ancients had the same sky that we do, it is possible to know what they could observe.  They just thought about it differently.  

I will have to post a diary.  

Thanks for your compliment, and interest.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:29:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would the Vedic Yugas also fit into paleo-astronomy/astrology?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_timeline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Four_Yugas

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 05:45:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This might be a better link - Frawley is a reknown Vedic Scholar:

http://www.vedanet.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=129

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 05:50:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the links.  

Good question.  

I don't really know.  The first stage would be to see what those numbers might correspond to in the sky.  Generally, I have been looking at much shorter time-frames.  

The longest cycle I have encountered so far is (one fifth of) 25 800 years (the cycle of precession of the equinoxes) and at this point I can not really justify this--because I do not have an explanation for the one fifth.  And the longest cycle that I have come across that is sure is a 112-year eclipse cycle (actually 1385  months) in an account of the markings on a brass bowl recovered from Arabia and dating from Mohammedian times or possibly earlier (brass is hard to date).  The 56-year cycle of the Dragon against the year can be confidently adduced to the ring of hollow stones at Stonehenge.  This is not an eclipse cycle, but is instead relevant to the elevation of the Moon's path in the sky.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 06:20:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a link with the fact that the earliest agricultural systems could have cycle of up to about 50 years between two cultivating of the same field ? We tend to forget some earlier societies did think in the long term - a long term we have forgotten the use of.

The concept that socialisation has to be linked to business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A good point.  Agricultural cycles can exist, and I have no way of finding these, unless they are ALSO linked (by the agriculturalists) to the sky.  But then the sky makes a very useful way of marking.  

On the other hand, while I may know the meaning in the sky, I won't know the meaning on the ground!  So I definitely miss part of what is going on.  

One of my friends is studying mythological structures, and sometimes our results dovetail perfectly.  But that is a study that is even murkier than what I am doing.  At least to me.  ;)  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:41:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How would "paleo-astronomy" help?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 06:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't help, it is just is, you Irish pussy cat ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:08:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent diary, Gianne.  Re: palaeo-astronomy, you set this puzzle before, I went searching for the solution(s) to the riddle(s) and...got lost around the dragon (I got to draco and the changes in the moon's height and that relates to eclipses and it seemed to be about eclipses...but I could have that all wrong so...) I would very much appreciate it if you could write your findings up in diary form--very very much appreciate it, thanks!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:30:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While it was great fun organizing my thoughts--to the extent that I did--and coming up with clues, I sort of broke off from overload of doing too much at once.  

So I owe you for your diligence, and shall start thinking about what goes into that diary.  

Thank you for your encouragement.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please, do write a diary about it.

In particular, I would like to know how one can avoid the conceptual trap that Europe fell into in the 18th century which is to go from celestial mechanics to a clockwork universe metaphor.

How would it help if suddenly a large fraction of the population knew about these astronomical cycles? How can one justify organizing one's life around cycles other than those of the sun-earth-moon system? What difference does it make if one has a Venusian calendar?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe the entertaining things in the heart of mathematics are more mind-blowing when you haven't grown up with them - they just make life more interesting for me.

As for quantum mechanics, we know it's not right: worrying too much about the philosophical implications of theories we know to be incomplete at best seems like rather a waste of energy to my mind.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:43:45 AM EST
The consequence of Bell's Theorem is that if Quantum Mechanics is correct then reality (at the quantum level) is unmitigatedly connected, that is, connection is not limited by space and time:  It is immediate and bounded by neither space nor time.  

That is not the problem.  "As for quantum mechanics, we know it's not right."  And indeed, Quantum Mechanics may well get replaced by something else.  

Here is the problem:  The unmitigatedness of interaction (in the case of entangled pairs) has been put to physical experiment, and this aspect of Quantum Mechanics IS correct.  Which means it will also be part of whatever supersedes Quantum Mechanics.  

This is not acceptable to the Western mind, unfortunately, it IS acceptable to Reality.  It is part of how Reality works.  

This is perhaps the key point of Herbert's book.  

There is only one world-view I know of that approaches reality on this point--Vodun, or Haitian (and by extension, African) magic.  There may be others I don't know of.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 03:09:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess I don't have a "Western" mind, whatever that means, then.

But then I don't believe in any of this religious/spiritual stuff that apparently underlies the "Western" mind.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 03:15:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, what do you think the "Western mind" is, and why is quantum mechanics unacceptable to it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 03:51:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This comes in several flavors.  Catholicism is the foundation, of course, drawing on both Aristotle (foremost) and Plato (secondly).  I will skip over Protestantism (even though I shouldn't, as it laid the basis for both individualism and Capitalism).  

In all forms of Christianity the material is a real (though denigrated) category.  The spiritual is thought to exist and is exhalted, but is separated from the material.  

The Modern West arises co-incidentally with modern science, which investigates public knowledge--that is, that which is publicly verifiable through demonstration or experiment.  This leaves out dreams and visions (the most important part of reality in many cultures), but at this point it does not pass judgment on them.  

By the 19th century certain ancient notions that had been adopted by Christianity as unalterable dogma were shown by science to be false in fact, leading to a war between Christian religion and science.  One consequence of the war was that science moved from non-study of the non-material, to active denial of the non-material.  Science adopted a wholly materialistic point of view.  

Several non-Western cultures blur the material-spiritual distinction.  The interest is not in how to separate them, but in how they relate--how they inform each other.  

If you were really non-materialist you would not be Western in mind.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 04:30:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm entirely materialist, in that I have no idea what "spiritual" is meant to mean any more.  It doesn't make QM bother me: the world is what it is, not what I expect it to be.

Most of the "the West" is definitely not materialist - the problem is that they conflate their mythos with their logos and expect certainty when there is and can be none.  And they're afraid to say "I don't know".

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 04:34:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought so. ;)  

the world is what it is  

But WHAT is it?  I don't think we know.  A metaphysics is  one's underlying model for everything.  Are there metaphysics that actually work?  

This as an inquiry, not angst.  

And they're afraid to say "I don't know".  

"Don't know" is the starting point for Zen:  It is okay not to know--not at all the worst place to be.  ;)  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 04:55:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are there metaphysics that actually work?

I'm not sure I really do metaphysics. I must informally at some level I'm sure, but I try not to take it too seriously, whatever it is.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 04:59:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But WHAT is it?

I don't know. I don't expect to.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 05:00:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"But WHAT is it?"

I've always had a fondness for an 'answer' provided in the Yoga Vasistha (India, 500 CE).

"The world is an impression left by the telling of a story."

by sandalwood on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 09:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is impression, what is telling a story, what is a story?

My problem with such metaphors is that instead of being compelling for some insight, they are compelling for being antropomorphic, that is, referring to stuff we have 'innate sense of' and don't immediately think  of something whose meaning could be philosophically (or metaphysically) complicated itself.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 08:08:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some find such metaphors compelling, others do not. I think many approaches are required because any one approach by itself will always be deficient... it will leave something out for sure. In that sense, all approaches are akin to 'Art' because they are finite constructs which aim at shedding some light onto what is beyond them. Even our best scientific theories are artistic renditions as they address some aspects of reality while leaving others out.

In the classical Indian scheme, there are 6 complementary views... none of which paints the whole picture... these views are called:

Nyaya: Sets forth the rules and limits of thought/logic/language
Vaisheshika: Analysis (an ancient atomic theory is part of this approach)
Samkhya: An atheistic, dualistic approach which posits an essential difference between matter and mind
Yoga: Gnosis
Mimamsa: A theistic approach
Vedanta: Posits an essential non-duality

These are considered complementary approaches.

by sandalwood on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 11:10:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could you write about this?  It would be new and interesting to many of us, and deserves its own diary and thread.  
by Gaianne on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 02:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for your interest... I will begin to think about this in a diary format.
by sandalwood on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 02:22:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In all forms of Christianity<snip>

Wrong.

Why does everyone insist that Christianity is some simple set of axioms? Christianity is not like dolls cut out of folded paper. We create god in our own image and that image shifts and changes with the individual and the time. Just to be clear here I am speaking of organised Christianity.

Christianity is not some fossil that has been dug out of the ground. Attitudes and ideas of today are found in the religions of today. Christianity in particular has fractured like a pane of glass dropped on the pavement. Like humpty dumpty there are those desperately trying to put it back together, and like humpty dumpty they will fail.

For a bunch of mathematicians, the lack of precision is surprising. Is this the quality of mathematical work? It is 99% true so we will call it universal?

There is a deeper problem than the 1% of Christianity that is not part of all forms of Christianity, and that is the way Christianity is changing. It is affected and altered by the same things that affect everyone. Today's Christianity is not the same as yesterdays. There are people who desperately cling to their vision of the past, but even they put forward a new version of their beliefs and myths. The landscape that they build their beliefs on has changed, so too must be what they build on that landscape.

Not all Christians dress in funny fashions that date from your grandmother, or great grandmother's time.


We are for Justice and Mercy, and Truth and Peace, and true Freedom. Edward Burroughs 1659

by edwin on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 09:26:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not just Bell, but also Hardy and Kocken-Specker. Together what they do is show that Einstein's idea of realism is just wrong. Hidden variables are so counterintuitive (nonlocal, contextual, non-counterfactual) that I prefer standard quantum mechanics.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:22:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
not an untried theoretical construct.  
by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 03:27:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not just a theory. We're talking about a slew of experimental results for which the simple mental model is to write down schroedinger's equation. That indicates we need a whole new conceptual/metaphorical scaffolding to allow us to reason qithout having to solve the equations - and we don't have that.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That indicates we need a whole new conceptual/metaphorical scaffolding to allow us to reason without having to solve the equations - and we don't have that.

Could "a whole new conceptual/metaphorical scaffolding" be identified with Gaianne's "utter rearrangement of [the Western] mind"/"metaphysics" (though maybe I should not be identifying "mind" and "metaphysics" here)?

If so, then if and when we find such a new scaffolding/metaphysics, how can this help us address

the circumstances of peak oil, climate change, biosphere destruction, and consequent civilization collapse
?

Also, why exactly is our current conceptual/metaphorical scaffolding not already sufficient for undertaking these challenges?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 10:37:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the problems with QM are probably different to the problems
] with the other issues: basically we're really bad with systems and feedback and loops and things.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 10:48:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
bruno-ken:

If so, then if and when we find such a new scaffolding/metaphysics, how can this help us address

the circumstances of peak oil, climate change, biosphere destruction, and consequent civilization collapse
?
I don't see how, and neither Emil Moller nor Gaianne have explained quite how it would.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 11:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The flip answer:  Well, and IS our current conceptual scaffolding meeting these challenges?  

Clearly it is not.  

Indeed it is the mind that we ALREADY HAVE that has led us into our troubles.  So we need to alter or augment that mind in some way that will work.  

This comes even before worrying about how we might communicate and implement such mind.  

That is: I am seeking to cast a wider net.  

There are two places I know to look:  Peoples who already are (or were) sustainable; and the unregarded places our own studies point to.  The latter may seem esoteric, but considering they demand a new mental structure (and we know we need one) they might (by luck) suggest the things we actually need.  (Reality is your friend.)  

There may be other places to look.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 11:23:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But isn't it already possible that we already have what we need in our current conceptual scaffolding (though I would call it a ethical or political rather than metaphysical scaffolding), but that these are being neglected and even repressed?

I refer to values such as cooperation, democracy, freedom, community, pluralism, solidarity, compassion, future preference (relevant to sustainability and solidarity with our descendants), and even (albeit to a lesser degree than in other cultures perhaps) a respect for and fondness for nature.

These are all to be found in the Western tradition (although again, I realize they are not really metaphysical in nature.)  If we revive and revalue them, then I think we will be well equipped to address the challenges you raise.

One point that might bear on the metaphysical is the Western notion of truth, and it just occurred to me now that here a revision or expansion of this notion could conceivably enhance, though not radically alter, in a positive way our conceptual equipment to deal with real world crises.

Our metaphysical outlook has always held that there is a truth, a meaning, a goal to existence, and that this truth is learnable, but not with completeness, finality, or certainty.  Also, this truth is approached not only through divine revelation (the exceptional, almost mythological case), but through individual, personal effort and through reiterative, communal, collective effort.  Furthermore, the social dimension of the unfolding of truth involves both competition and cooperation.  To claim to have obtained final truth is to commit the Greek sin of hubris or the Judaeo-Christian sin of pride (which caused Lucifer to forfeit his box seat in Heaven).  This conception of truth is at the basis of the modern scientific enterprise in which truth is progressively approached, through competition and cooperation, through ever increasing and ever refining knowledge, with the ever present caveat that science is never fully achieved and that no matter how good a theory is, it may always be disproved by a new experiment or displaced by a better theory.

This conception of truth as unfolding in time through a communal process is thus hopeful and optimistic, and affirms that there is an ordered, external reality that is not arbitrary, chaotic, and meaningless.

The irony is that Gödel's theorems, as well as quantum mechanics, violently rattle our simple understanding of what truth is, and force us to reexamine it.  It may even cause us to question the fundamental premise that truth exists at all.  But I do not think these discoveries require that we reject truth, but rather that we enrich our understanding of the nature of truth.  In particular, based on my purely lay reading of quantum mechanics and logic (including a college course in first order logic), I think quantum mechanics and Gödel's theorems can contribute positively to our metaphysics with the following:

  • the rejection of absolute, mutually exclusive duality ("Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)")
  • the role of subjectivity and consciousness, maybe even sentience, in the constitution of reality
  • the confirmation that truth can never be expressed finally and exhaustively ("There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy")
  • that the discovery, unfolding of truth cannot be automated, but requires the continual participation of conscious intelligence
  • reality is not pre-determined
  • reality may contain multiple "truths" ("reject the tyranny of the or, embrace the genius of the and")

In short, what these scientific/mathematical "crises" may offer our metaphysics is
  • a more important place for the active engagement and consciousness of people
  • more room for creativity and consideration of alternatives (solutions as well as points of view)
  • open-ended optimism and hopefulness

I am no scientist or mathematician (to my great regret), so I may be totally off base here.  But if not, these seem like they could be very helpful for us in dealing with the real world challenges that face us indeed.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brilliant indeed, Bruno-Ken.  

I optimistically believe that through the use of the emerging partnership-based models - within which risk and reward are shared equitably - we will come to understand that Ethical is, in fact, Optimal.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, but I promise you, the credit definitely goes elsewhere.

I optimistically believe that through the use of the emerging partnership-based models - within which risk and reward are shared equitably - we will come to understand that Ethical is, in fact, Optimal.

And I suspect that part of that success will come through the eventual replacement of the self-oriented profit motive with an other/community-oriented giving/helping/support motive underlying economic transactions.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 11:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A superb contribution. You've revealed many of the things that I struggle to write about.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These ideas are nothing more than a regurgitation of what I have read elsewhere.  But if they resonate, then I am glad (and relieved) that I am not the only one who found value in them.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 11:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... 'social consequence'?

That is,

'our mind' => 'social outcomes'

... in a way that our mind is independent of social outcomes?

That is,

'social outcomes' =/> 'our mind'

As a fundamental premise, this seems to me to be dramatically Newtonian/Cartesian.

More likely:

... => 'our mind' => 'social outcomes' => 'our mind' => 'social outcomes' => ...

... that is, a self-reproducing system, so that fundamentalist, analytical causality is insufficient to map to the problem at issue, and we require a living systems reasoning instead.


So, here I am in Ravenna. Where exactly was the Rubicon, again?

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 07:23:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to make presumptions about your argument, but we certainly have a tendency to believe that minds belong to individual people, running on individual brains in individual bodies--and that isn't right at all.  There is some of that, yes, but it is pretty irrelevant to the problems of climate change, biosphere destruction, and economic disaster that constitute the visible surface of our looming difficulties.  

These are created by mind, mind that does not belong to individual brains in individual bodies, but flows across them creating real actions by real people stretching across some centuries and more or less culminating now.  This mind has indeed created the problems, through the nature of the thoughts it perpetuates and the actions it has induced.  And it is still doing it, right now.  

Now it is a mistake to think we are separate from this--for we are participating in it.  Our individual minds may recognize the disaster we are involved in (some do, some don't), but the mind we are part of all together does not.  There are several reasons for this, but one of them is the metaphysics of this mind--a metaphysics we all share.  This lies a bit below the level of visibility--the metaphysics we are happily arguing about do not reach quite that deep.  My tactic is that by arguing about--or sharing--our little metaphysics, the deeper levels might start to show.  

It is needful that they show, that they are revealed to us, the participants who never think about them.  

When I said there are things we want to save, but we don't know what CAN be saved, there are two meanings to this.  There are things that simply cannot (are unable) to make the transition into the new age.  But secondly, there are things which we think we want to save, but are actually part of the destructive process itself.  We don't know what these things are, but we should make a point to know before we set about trying to save them.  We need to know what things belong to the destructive process.  

This then has its mirror:  What does life require of us?  Life needs to outwit the mind causing the destruction.  How do we help it do that?  

Is it "social?"  Oh, yes.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 09:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... as opposed to whatever it is that our brains do when they do things.

I do not see the benefit in "explaining" social systems by loose metaphors to one of the aspects of our own biology that we most struggle with understanding, unless deliberate obscurity is the goal.

However, that is an aside ... if it is a loose metaphorical social "Mind" being discussed, then, while it is true:

"Mind" => thoughts/actions

it is equally true that

thoughts/actions => "Mind" ...

... so "Mind" recreates itself ...

"Mind" => thoughts/actions => "Mind"

... and patterns of thoughts/actions recreate themselves ...

thoughts/actions => "Mind" => thoughts/actions

... and the simple externally-driven system turns into the classical living system, open to material cause, but recursively closed to efficient cause.

That is, a concrete, self-reproducing, matter/energy processing system ...

... for which the simple linear mechanical Newtonian causation, in which material, formal, and efficient cause all collapse into a single type of cause-effect relationship, is inadequate.


So, here I am in Ravenna. Where exactly was the Rubicon, again?

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 09:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These are created by mind, mind that does not belong to individual brains in individual bodies, but flows across them creating real actions by real people stretching across some centuries and more or less culminating now.

If you insist on mis-using terminology confusion will be your reward.

What you are describing is intellectual continuity within a particular culture.  

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 10:31:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about decoherence?

Seriously, I cannot imagine how ecology or political economy can depend on insights from Quantum Mechanics.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 11:37:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's assume that the next evolution of QM begins to decode, or even decodes, consciousness.  We may even find action at a distance being the binding agent of consciousness, as speculated for over three decades now by the wild crew from the Physics Consciousness Research Group begun at Esalen in the mid-70's.  btw, Nick Herbert, Fred Wolf, Gary Zukav, Fritjof Capra, Saul Paul Sirag and Jack Sarfatti (the gluon), now leaders in the exposition of the physics of consciousness, were all together there, and having survived decades of internecine warfare, are still more or less together (with a glaring exception, or two.)  At the same time, physicists as diverse as David Bohm and Brian Josephson were, and remain, in constant contact with the group, as it continues to this day informally.

back to Mig's question.  since environmental destruction is caused by a civilization which doesn't know itself, nor its relationship to its surounding; then a healthy dose of conscious evolution would enable the "New Deal/Apollo" program of renewable energy to be not supported, but demanded by the general population.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
since environmental destruction is caused by a civilization which doesn't know itself, nor its relationship to its surounding  

I don't have anything to add; I just want to highlight it.  

Anything that can cut through the willful ignorance of this civilization is to the good.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 03:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude, Sarfatti believes that he received a phone call from a sentient computer orbiting the earth on a spacecraft from the future and that he got all his insights from it.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:10:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude, that doesn't make his equations any less precise, nor his insights less valid.   He doesn't say he got his insights from the sentient computer, only that it began his path.  He even admits the phone calls, which his mother also heard, could have come from some strange intelligence plot cooked up by an agency here or there.

But there's a whole 'nother side to him and his work.  Some of his insights he got while doing the grunt work for Abdus Salaam's Nobel.  That Sarfatti worked for Salaam doesn't invalidate his Nobel.  Brian Josephson remains in constant contact with him, despite sarfatti's sentient computer.  That doesn't invalidate the Josephson Junction.  and for what it's worth, Sarfatti is a center of the physics consciousness world.

Full disclosure.  I can't argue physics, because i'm not, nor ever will be one in this lifetime.  Sarfatti is a close friend of mine for nearly 30 years.  I stayed at his house in November, so i'm prejudiced.  I have seen him at his most brilliant, and i have seen him at his most manic.  But as Jack himself often says, it doesn't matter if he's crazy, it matters if the equations check out.

And i do have personal knowledge of how much equation checking is being done at high levels around the world.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we should not engage in a war by proxy between your friend and my PhD advisor, which is what this would devolve into.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:33:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though it would never be a war with you anyway.  Preconceived ideas are always the hardest to give up.  But i bet we could have a very interesting evening together.

The real point was not about Sarfatti, but about the physical roots of consciousness, and the possible effect of the now common "paradigm shift" in human thinking.  And how that shift would affect every aspect of civilization.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Preconceived ideas are always the hardest to give up.

Now, what is that meant to mean?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like imprinting, Migeru's understanding of the reality swirling around the wave function of Sarfatti's life is informed by the PhD advisor's view, just as mine is informed by hanging out with the entire crew of psychotic boddhisatvas.

People in general do not change views easily, as there's always some extra attachment.  "No, we have to take Little Round Top, said Lt. General Pickett."  or perhaps, "No, Pope, the sun does not move around the earth."

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:39:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sarfatti believes that he received a phone call from a sentient computer  

I don't worry about where my insights come from, only whether they're any good.  

Sadly, I'm sure people would rather believe a sentient computer than Sarfatti himself.  

by Gaianne on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 04:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We might want to start with understanding the brain at the cellular level.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not that simple.

The Mind reconfigures neural pathways.  Among those so configured are the pathways to/from the diencephalon where the Thalamus and Hypothalamus major control areas for the endocrine system are.  

Thus, what you think may become what you are.

Also, the Thalamus is the 'ante room' to the two cerebral hemispheres where higher cognitive functions are located.  As the body does its 'thing' messages are passed to the Thalamus through the Central Nervous System and the biochemical signals of the endocrine system.  Together these 'inform' the Thalamus which then transmits messages to the cerebral hemispheres.

Thus, what you are may become what you think.

Out of the googleplex of messages being transmitted eventually some of what you think will become what you are.  Out of the googleplex of messages being transmitted eventually some of what you are will become what you think.

On a simplistic level, the homeostasis system will generate signals to the Thalamus which send signals to the cerebral cortex which will result in the thought, "Let's go out for a pizza."

It works the other way as well.  That's how we can make the decision to hold our breath so we don't drown while swimming under water.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 09:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How does this involve quantum mechanics?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 12:59:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At any level from chemical or electrical activity within brain cells to the unfolding and decay of galaxies, the basic building blocks are in action according to their QM or post-QM laws?

Newton's Gravity still affects brain components.  Why not other physical aspects?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 02:52:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quantum effects can be ignored in transistors down to a certain size, that is, above the feature size cutoff, starting from maxwell's equations we can predict the transistor's behavior mathematically among all the transistor's variables we are concerned with to the degree of precision we want. Below the cutoff, quantum effects have a non-negligible impact on a number of variables we do care about and Maxwell's equations are not good enough for our purposes.

Similarly we may or may not need quantum mechanics to describe consciousness to an extent we are satisfied with. If it turns out our brains store data in quantum states, for example (admittedly I know very little about QM), then sure, QM will have to be into incorporated into an adequate description of consciousness.

I'm not equating transistors or logic gates to neurons, by the way. I'm claiming that in a universe with no apparent absolutes, pinning down assumptions through approximate models is all we can do, that this is useful, and that less sophisticated models, even those that have been superseded by models that work in a broader range of cases, can be adequate for our purposes.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 03:49:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quantum effects can be ignored in transistors down to a certain size  

Not quite:  Transistors only work BECAUSE of quantum effects.  

Without quantum effects we would still be using vacuum tubes.  

by Gaianne on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 02:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Comment specific to the "...understanding the brain at the cellular level."  You can't understand the brain at that level.  All you understand is the diffusion of neuro-transmitters across the synaptic cleft, the electo-chemical interactions along and across the myelin sheath, & so on.  It's like trying to understand an automobile by looking at the alloys used in the metal and the petrochemicals used in the plastic.  

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 03:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What are the deeper levels involved?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 03:57:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand your question.  

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:27:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we use QM, what else can we look at?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 01:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anything. Just enumerate a set of states and postulate a set of transition amplitudes.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 01:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a lot of talking about the consequences of QM when we don't really understands most of what happen in scales between molecules and the whole organism. Apparently, a recent discovery was how water reacts in the presence of an electron...

The concept that socialisation has to be linked to business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're going to have a far easier time examining the brain at the cellular level first. If that doesn't explain it to a satisfactory extent, we can dig further.

I'm immediately skeptical of Crazy Horse on this: his comment has dualism written all over it, with the material/immaterial mapping to the microscopic/macroscopic world of physics. That would be neat if true, but I'd rather reject more likely candidates first.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 03:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My continuing point exactly...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:41:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, if you understood mind, you would understand that they are related.  

Of course, we don't:  That is the problem I started with.  

But for my part, I am willing to SEEK understanding.  

How will an understanding of Quantum Mechanics inform ecology and political economy?  

We won't know unless it happens.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:11:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That begs the question. It is possible that you're right, then again it is possible that it isn't. Don't dodge the question, though, decoherence is a significant enough effect that quantum mechanical entanglement only survives into the mesoscopic level in carefully designed experimental conditions.

Entanglement doesn't imply superluminal communication, by the way.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't mean superluminal communication isn't there anyway.  But i'm not qualified to discuss physics with people as educated as Migeru in the field.  I'd only like to point out that there are physicists with much more experience who take various versions of the action at a distance theories very seriously.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any experimental verification of superluminal communication? That would have earned a couple of Nobel Prizes by now.

Instead, quantum optics has provided esperimental verification of Bell's inequalities, Hardy's theorem, the Kocken-Specker theorem, interaction-free measurement [which is not interaction-free], quantum teleportation [which is not teleportation but subluminal communication]...

There are enough wonders in empirically established quantum mechanics already.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:45:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Any experimental verification of superluminal communication?

Kind of.

And also here.

I can understand the group velocity argument, but what bothers me is that the rationale for 'proving' that superluminal communication can't happen seems very similar to the one that was being used to 'prove' with absolute relativistic certainty that the group velocity has to be less than c.

This doesn't 'prove' anything about what's possible, but it does make me suspicious of the rigour of the arguments that are being used.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 04:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, that!Faster than a Speeding Light Wave - UFO Evidence
Researchers have now measured many group velocities higher than c. "It's just not true what they say in the textbooks," says Raymond Chiao of the University of California at Berkeley. For example, a Gaussian shaped light pulse can travel faster than c through some highly absorbing materials. The explanation is that the central piece of the pulse is attenuated more than the earliest piece. Although the pulse shape is unchanged, it comes out smaller, and the "leading edge" of the input pulse is transformed to become the peak of the emerging pulse, a process called "reshaping." So no part of the pulse is actually transmitted faster than c, says Chiao.
That doesn't constitute a test of superluminal transmission of information, though I can imagine an experiment being designed on the basis of this phenomenon.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 05:24:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is pretty far off topic.  

However:  I do not know enough physics to know if it is possible; only enough to know how I would try to do it.  The basic idea would be to use the difference between the interference patterns that can be generated when particles do not choose, versus the lack of interference pattern that occurs when they are forced to choose.  Obviously the particles would be in batches--sequences--long enough to reliably create such patterns.  

Of technical problems, there should be many.  

Theoretically, it would be very interesting.  

The earth is only 21 light-milliseconds across.  I don't think it will improve cellphones much.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you yourself said elsewhere in this thread that since the 70's, theory had outstripped experiment.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is not a good thing. Theory has gone on without new experimental input. And I'm talking only about the standard model of particle physics. On quantum consciousness there is no real experimental lead because our understanding of consciousness is very poor on all levels.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:54:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand that the unmitigated connections are at the quantum level, so when you say they don't rise above the mesoscopic, that does not come as any particular shock.  

You are asking me to explain how a new theory of Quantum Mechanics would allow Quantum Mechanics to solve our problems.  But there is no way I would expect that.  

And not only because our problems are not going to get solved.  

Rather, my guess is that a correct understanding of Quantum Mechanics would be a new model of the world, and that model would suggest many things, not only about Quantum Mechanics.  It would suggest things that would compel us to CORRECT OUR BEHAVIOR.  

What might those things be?  We'll know if it happens.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 12:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, the problem that decoherence attempts to solve is how it is possible that out of quantum mechanics arises a macroscopic world that is more or less consistent with the Western metaphysics you lambast.

That is the real problem. How do you construct a metaphysics that at the same time contains heuristics for the microscopic and for the macroscopic.

I agree with a lot of people that quantum gravity is likely to result in this new heuristics, but I honestly fail to see how 1) any quantum gravity is going to be testable other than by internal consistency (which you lambast), that is, how experiments are going to be accessible; 2) how knowledge of quantum gravity could affect (or would have affected) political economy.

Feynman once said that the problem with hard-nosed scientists is not that they lack imagination but that what they imagine is constrained by everything they know to be approximately true.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 01:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"other than by internal consistency (which you lambast)"  

???

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:11:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe I misread you as to at what point Mathematics went wrong.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, my complaint was, that 30 years after Goedel showed mathematics was not exactly planted on solid bedrock, mathematicians were still pretending that it was.  

I had no complaint about internal consistency--but what we were getting was faith.  In a sense there was no choice about that, but I thought that in that case we should own up to it.  

Then again, a non-formal proof of consistency, might serve, but--and now I am wandering off-topic, perhaps those funny little symbols were not as important as everybody thought?  I was slowly coming around to the intuitionist view that mathematics should be comprehensible.  Even if the intuitionists treated Cantor very badly--which they did--they weren't wrong about everything.  Hilbert's project had its uses, but the core of it had failed.  It was time to let mathematics be done in a style appropriate to its content.  

So during this period, it was the logicians, not the mathematicians, who were my guides.  They wanted proof of consistency but knew they had not gotten it, and owned up.  They knew they needed to do something about it, too, even if what they did lay outside of logic.  

by Gaianne on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 02:51:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Personally I think we'd be well served by taking a constructivist approach to mathematics. A lot of the apparent paradoxes and monsters of functional analysis go away if you take a constructivist approach. Which, in fact, is good for applied mathematics such as physics because a lot of conundrums just melt away.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 at 03:10:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gaianne:
It would suggest things that would compel us to CORRECT OUR BEHAVIOR.  

It's actually not hard to understand what the problem is. Although the Western Mind (including Colman's, at a guess) shrinks back in horror from mysticism and explicit dualism, it still works on the assumption that Mind is separate from Reality, and that the only way to understand Reality is by making Mind (i.e. abstracted pattern recognition) and Reality as separate as possible.

You can experiment on Reality, but you're not allowed to admit that you take part in the experimental experience directly. That's called being subjective, and it's a terrible sin.

Put simply, we don't see ourselves as an organic part of the physical world. We see ourselves as separate and detached from it. It happens to us and around us, but it's not a deeply felt or experienced part of us.

So phy