Panic! Panic now!

by Colman
Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:48:01 AM EDT

This should be fun:
The Federal Reserve has cut interest rates to 3.5%, a shock three-quarters of a percentage point reduction. Moving to shore up confidence in the US economy, the decision comes after sharp stock market declines on Wall Street and around the world.

The Fed said incoming information indicated a deepening of the housing market slump and a softening of the labour market.

One analyst said the Fed was "obviously panicked" by the threat of recession.

"Unfortunately they have no power to reverse what in my opinion is the worst post-war recession," said Michael Metz, chief investment strategist at Oppenheimer in New York. (BBC)

Any idea what that's going to do to the dollar? Oil prices? Inflation in the US? Eurozone interest rates?

See also the salon section on the crisis in the financial markets.

ChrisCook adds:

The Fed are essentially damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

The bottom line is that monetary policy is almost entirely irrelevant now: the only solutions are fiscal, and structural.

The unfolding crisis was mathematically inevitable. Greenspan's bubble merely brought it forward a year or two.


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Beat me to it by 50 odd seconds....
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:50:23 AM EDT
I folded your diary into this story, if that's ok with you, and hid the original.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:51:27 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Since you've captured what I wrote, I deleted it. What a team, eh!
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:54:26 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Couldn't this wait a year? I have a house to sell...

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:54:33 AM EDT
I'm increasingly glad to be rid of ours ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:06:53 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Rent it out, dear boy, and rent another one somewhere else...
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:56:04 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Yes, I know. But would prefer not to have fixed assets in America if not living there, thank you!

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:06:38 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
If you still have U.S. income, the rent-it option may actually present a tax haven, once you figure in depreciation and costs of any recent maintenance/repairs that could be considered a part of making the house rentable. The only down-side to depreciation is that it reduces 'basis' when/if you sell. Of course, you will have a property 'management' expense, too.

Selling on contract is an excellent approach in a tight-credit situation. You can ask a reasonable down-payment, maybe 6% interest, and, if the buyer defaults, it's easier to recover the property. Down-side is state excise (sales) tax (paid at sale), home-owner's insurance (that you should maintain to assure coverage), and fees to some local representative of your interest.

Taking Chris' approach (my version of it), you could do a rent-to-buy with no interest (but a substantial "deposit") where the "renter's" interest becomes an increasing per cent of equity on the following basis: first you get a current market appraisal, then each month's "rent" (constant rate?) is added to the "renter's" equity (which already includes the "deposit"). If you and "renter" agree to sell to third party in the future, the portion for you is your appraisal, divided by appraisal plus total "rent" payments, times the sale price; "renter" gets the remainder.

If OTOH "renter" wants to cash you out - and if you agree to sell - total "rent" is subtracted from appraised value, and "renter" pays the difference to you. Of course, this type of transaction would leave out all consideration of advantage with respect to inflation, deflation, and relevant market changes; but some kind of formula could be added to the original contract, designed to consider such factors.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:49:18 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Americans get taxed on their worldwide income whether they have US dollar income or not.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 07:36:44 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
But do you have an outstanding mortgage on it?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:57:12 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Yes, but loan to val is about 50%. No worries there unless the crash bottoms out at -65% (down roughly 15% here already).

Quartier chic and centrally located near airport, both downtowns and not far from light rail as well so really no worries, but all the same, if in six months no mortgages are being floated, it's pretty hard to sell a house.

(And I hope everyone understands that the prospect of no mortgages being issued is a very real one...)

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:05:58 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I do understand that.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:07:09 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Ummm...borrow another 30%to 50% and put it on Euro deposit, then.
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:14:34 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Benn thinking about that, actually.

But if there's one thing in this that hasn't been obvious to me, it's what will happen to USD.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:15:57 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
If the US lowers rates it makes it that much less attractive for the rest of the world to keep using their excess dollars to buy T Bills etc.

Also, expect other Gulf states to follow Kuwait out of the Dollar peg soon.

Which won't help the dollar any.

The USD has a lot further to go, and will undoubtedly be oversold in the process, to be dragged back if and when the US can correct the trade balance.....

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:20:32 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I know, I know, but rationality hasn't really followed events here so far. A rate cut could potentially in the short term at least cause a bit more bad money to chase good in the US.

What you say is of course true, and it will fall. It's just a matter of when, and timing a fall is hard to do, and potentially more expensive than I can afford...

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:04:35 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Also, while true the USD must fall, it is less obvious that it wil fall by much to the Euro.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:05:10 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Good point.

Currencies backed by oil are not a bad option to have a deposit in: Norway and the Gulf States come to mind - even (whisper it not) the Rouble.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:24:06 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Why not just buy gold... or even better silver, I wouldn't rule out a silver standard in the future, would make sense imho
by acrowe on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 05:18:35 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Depending on the area (location ^ 3, ya know) there is still time.  As an example, in our area real estate is underpinned by oil patch and military retirees -- one of the reasons we bought where we bought.

You might look at the actual, as opposed to the fantasy, sustainable underpinnings, if there are any such things, to try and determine your exposure.  Given the economic circumstances it may be reasonable to do a Cut-and-Run.

z=z²+c. It's the Law. Obey it.

by ATinNM on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:37:16 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The interest rate differential with the Eurozone, by itself, will make the dollar lose value. Dollar-denominated debt will become even less attractive.

Not so long ago the Fed was talking about inflationary pressures. Is this a sign that the Fed now fears deflation because of the large losses of financial and real state asset values? If not, this is really just stoking the fires of inflation.

In any case I have to agree this looks like panic. Already the December rate cut was interpreted as a panicked move and it didn't work as intended.

If the Fed keeps acting "panicked" it will lose "credibility" and then it won't matter what it does.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:56:06 AM EDT
The Federal Reserve has cut interest rates to 3.5%, a shock three-quarters of a percentage point reduction. Moving to shore up confidence in the US economy...

In fact, I think that exceeding (0.5% cut?) expectations in this way serves to throw petrol on the flames.

IMHO the last thing an over-reaction does is to "shore up confidence", although the markets may yet prove me wrong.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:05:33 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
They won't prove you wrong.  They're tanking.  Bernanke's panic is on full display.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:31:04 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Would you really characterize this as an over-reaction? Bernanke's panicking, sure, but not without reason, and even if the instrument he's holding is ineffective it's still his duty to use it.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:43:02 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Half the Fed chairman's job is bullshitting the markets into thinking he's got it all under control.  When he pulls stunts like this, it potentially tells hamsters on Wall Street that the Fed is being run by monkeys.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:49:12 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
But in view of international developments, standing pat was not an option either.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:00:46 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
No, but putting together a STRATEGY rather than throwing money out of a toy helicopter would have calmed the markets.

Someone with a clue, instead of a latex-jowled MarketBot, would have had plans in place well in advance.

(Although I suppose someone with a clue would never have been given the job in the first place.)

The solution is politcally unacceptable - tax cuts for the poor and middle classes, aggressive tax increases for the very rich, especially on speculative non-investment, as opposed to structural project funding, a formal end to the Iraq fiasco with all of its pointless spending, a redirection of the money towards social investment, and very strong changes in banking regulation and reporting to clear the crap out of the system.

Instead we'll see more flapping and spinning, and a big pile of 'Complete surprise - who could have expected...?' from the Very Serious People. Also tax increases for the poor and middle classes, tax cuts for the very rich, yet more spending on Iraq, further cuts in social investment, and some modest proposals towards 'self-regulation' for the markets.

Bah. Morons.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:26:11 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
Someone with a clue, instead of a latex-jowled MarketBot, would have had plans in place well in advance.
They had a 6-month warning, after all. And a lot of pre-shocks in the intervening time.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:30:10 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Yes, they had a six-month warning, and their reactions ranged from utterly panicked to mildly entertained.  Had we started gearing up for this six months ago, when the meltdown began, we might have avoided much of the harsh punishment.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:32:57 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Daily Kos: The dollar has lost 1/3 of its value (by LondonYank on November 07, 2007)
I am advising central bankers next week on strengthening their preparedness.  I will be telling them to abandon any focus on capital adequacy requirements.  It's far too late for that to have any effect on the fall out.  They should focus instead on reviewing and modernising their bankruptcy laws, enabling transfer of customer accounts and nominee assets from failing banks to healthy banks, providing for rapid auction of failed bank businesses and assets, and other practical measures for limiting loss, contagion and debilitating paralysis in the markets.
Note the date.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:36:54 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Sure.  I'm simply referring to six months ago the markets smacking the public in the face with the reality of the situation.  Many throughout the blogosphere have been on this for years, along with guys like Krugman.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:51:01 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Yes, this is precisely the strategy that would work.  But, unfortunately, I'm sure you'll be more right than wrong on the reality.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:31:07 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I'm assuming that this is going to put pressure on the ECB for their next meeting to start dropping rates? Or maybe not. Does a weak dollar matter to the Eurozone?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 08:58:21 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I'm hoping Tricket will keep a steady hand.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:05:13 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Well... Looking at the French stock exchange, the 75 points rate cut had an effect.

For about 30 minutes. Indeed, half an hour later, the CAC was pretty much trading as before the cut. I guess it's a safe conclusion that it is being viewed as not making much of a positive difference.

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:04:37 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Just about the same 30 min rise in the DAX, where it even touched positive, before dropping back another 2.3%.

In windpower stocks, Vestas, hammered since weeks, broke back into positve territory all day today, currently up 12%.  Nordex, also hammered for weeks, saw similar gains all day today, hovering now at null.  It's far too early to tell, but i'm hoping this means wind will become a more preferred investment i these crazy conditions.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:29:51 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
... Conference Board Index of Leading Economic Indicators ... that is ... Oct-Dec, was announced at the end of last week.

Only once has the ILEI fallen every month in a quarter without leading an actual recession ... in the late 60's, when it was short circuited by two aggressive discount rate cuts.

So no point now avoiding a substantially looser monetary policy that would be taken to "signal" that the Fed fears a recession ... everyone knows a US recession is on its way.

Now eyes turn to China, to see how well they manage to keep growth on track in the lead in to the Olympics.


So, here I am in Ravenna. Where exactly was the Rubicon, again?

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 03:50:08 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
This question is a bit of an aside in these highly entertaining circumstances, but what are the odds that all this fun continues to snowball and ... um ... might we say 'spoil the party' that will be the massive wankfest in Beijing? (Sorry, I've never been a fan of the Olympics ... IMO, they should give them back to Athens in perpetuity and be done with the perpetual cycle of bribery and corruption that attends the whole thing).
by wing26 on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 09:40:26 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The answer to that lies in the EU, China's biggest export market. China can avoid a US recession turning into a Chinese recession if they can still keep strong export demand in Europe ... certainly for half a year.

If the EU slides into recession, then its a much harder ask.


So, here I am in Ravenna. Where exactly was the Rubicon, again?

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 10:43:28 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
on a side note, all of this means that banks and financial institutions in general need to find safe SAFE investment opportunities, which they can find in government backed programs, like state purchased electricity from wind farms. Could it be possible that this panic could be used to reduce the cost of supposedly expensive, non-free-market projects, through lower risk premiums?

Current projects get a near euribor rate, I hear. Can Jerome confirm?

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:02:09 AM EDT
Euribor is down to May 2007 (pre-crisis) levels!
Euribor

Valor Euribor
22/1/2008

4,305%

Media a 22 de Enero: 4.574%

Diciembre 2007 4,792%
Noviembre 2007 4,607%
Octubre 2007 4,647%
Septiembre 2007 4,725%
Agosto 2007 4,666%
Julio 2007 4,564%
Junio 2007 4,505%
Mayo 2007 4,373%
Abril 2007 4,253%
Marzo 2007 4,106%
Febrero 2007 4,094%
Enero 2007 4,064%
Diciembre 2006 3,921%
Noviembre 2006 3,864%
Octubre 2006 3,799%
Septiembre 2006 3,715%
Agosto 2006 3,615%
Julio 2006 3,538%
Junio 2006 3,401%
Mayo 2006 3,308%
Abril 2006 3,221%
Marzo 2006 3,100%
Febrero 2006 2,910%
Enero 2006 2,833%
Diciembre 2005 2,783%
Noviembre 2005 2,684%
On that page they say the immediate effect of Bernanke's helicopter money drop is an uptick in the markets and in the value of the Euro.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:04:29 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
What exactly is meant by "helicopter money drop" btw?

Is it monetary eg pumping massive liquidity to banks, which is basically f..k all good, or is it a fiscal money drop, eg a universal tax credit or rebate?

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:11:36 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I'm just poking fun at Bernanke's promise to drop money from helicopters if necessary. But it appears it's both. Last Friday Bush said that his economic advisors told him the country needed an immediate fiscal stimulus of the order of 1% GDP, and he would try to get Congress to approve a tax rebate of about that size.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:18:41 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The really weird thing to me is that Bush seems to be the only one with something close to a clue for a change.  It's still not big enough, and it needs to be combined with government spending.

But our three Democratic champions' proposals for stimulus range from Band-Aid to clueless.  And the Reps are, of course, all out to lunch.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:27:06 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Bush didn't write his speech, Bernanke and Paulson did.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:30:56 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Yes, but just the same.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:33:15 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
What do they need? 2% of GDP on public infrastuctural projects?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:33:13 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The infrastructure projects are necessary anyway, since, as I'm sure redstar can testify to, our infrastructure is such a joke.  Might as well take the opportunity to do them in a recession so that we can keep a base of support for the economy going and avoid a larger jump in unemployment.  The tax rebates aren't a bad idea, assuming they're being directed as I understand (at people making less than $80k or something).

How large it should be is another question that I just don't know the answer to, in all honesty.  What I know is that this will be bigger than the 2001 (.4% contraction) and 1991 (1.3%) recessions.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:38:26 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I think tax rebates ARE a bad idea.

Go for infrastructure project, full steam ahead. Refurbish buildings so they become more energy efficient, and you'll win on all counts: you'll find employment in the building industry which is depressed, those people probably WILL spend the money they earn, you'll reduce this frightening energy bill, and make a (however small) dent in global warming.

And because you keep taxing at the same rate, you'll get more of your money back.

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:50:05 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
That's a great idea, and six or seven months from now, when the economy's digging a giant hole, I'm sure Congress will get around to passing it.  In the meantime, what?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:53:17 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Well, why would they be quicker to pass anything else? So whatever we come up with, you may answer that Congress will wait until the election's over.

Hang on, there's an idea: haven't we read everywhere that this campaign was the most expensive ever? And contributions are almost all from very rich people, so it won't change their consumption patterns. There you have it, money being poured into the economy!

All you need now is to make the election close enough that the campaign costs 2% of GDP.
Of course, if Republicans win, contributors sure will expect to be paid back in policies. But by then, the seven months will be over and Congress may have passed our initial idea. Neat, isn't it?

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:08:41 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I don't know what you're on about with the campaign, but wiping out the 10% bracket with general agreement in Congress is a lot simpler than setting up a massive program to refurbish buildings for energy efficiency.  That's not to say that the idea doesn't have merit, -- it does -- but you're talking about moving an enormous amount of bureaucracy and dealing with all sorts of fights in Congress.  My point is that they need to be pumping money into consumers' hands now, and then move to public works projects.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:15:22 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
It seems to me that taxes are already way too low in the US.
Also, tax cuts hit the wrong targets (if you don't have a job you probably don't pay income taxes). And they don't have much of an immediate effect either -it comes with future earnings.

But this guy may explain it better.

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:28:31 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Will Bush have to do this by executive order?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:02:52 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Do what?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:09:10 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Whatever it is that needs done.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:09:49 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure he has the authority to do any of this by executive order (not that it's ever stopped him before).

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:16:15 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
If the economy is in trouble, then it could theoretically weaken the military.  Since the US is at war, a weakening in the military would be a weakening in overall National Security.  Thus, the economy is a national security matter, and thus the president's unlimited power as commander in chief authorize him to take whatever actions are necessary to address this deep and troubling threat to national security.

Or some might argue.

by Zwackus on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 05:38:52 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Does the US have any leeway for increased government spending?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:34:23 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
OHhh, some $600 billion earmarked for weapons.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:38:13 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
No, seriously.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:46:42 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Well it hasn't stopped them from running up 7 trillion so far why on earth would you think they need some sort of 'leeway'?

Its call a printing press and they will use it! (21stC digital one mind)

by acrowe on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 05:22:55 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Yes, assuming it's not run by idiots, but that's quite an assumption, as you know.  The idea has got to be to give the economy a series of shots in the arm until Wall Street sorts itself out and the private sector comes back.

I'd prefer it be done with fiscal policy, so that we could get some much-needed work done.  Handing it over to the Fed may well result is just another bubble somewhere.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:41:58 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
see Crazy Horse comment above: could there a hint there as to [1] where the money wants to go and hopefully [2] how to use the mess is a good way?

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:37:14 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
As Krugman notes, they can't keep doing this indefinitely:

Preemptive easing - Paul Krugman - Op-Ed Columnist - New York Times Blog

Wow. First the markets, now the Fed's reaction.

What you probably should know is that Ben Bernanke, in his capacity as a professional economist, spent a lot of time worrying about Japan's experience in the 1990s. (So did I.) What was so disturbing about Japan was the way monetary policy became ineffective; by the later 1990s the short-term interest rate was up against the ZLB -- the "zero lower bound." This is alternatively known as the "liquidity trap." And once you're there, conventional monetary policy can do no more, because interest rates can't go below zero.

There was a lot of discussion of various unconventional monetary things you could do. But the best answer was not to get there in the first place. A 2004 paper co-authored by Bernanke argued that the ZLB could and should be avoided by "maintaining a sufficient inflation buffer and easing preemptively as necessary".



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:13:31 AM EDT
Yup. Japan 2.0. In Spades, with added inflation.
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:16:01 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
And with no savings.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:17:04 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
And a populace generally not inclined to sacrifice or savings, and, due to years of propaganda from the right, probably convinced the private sector can handle this tsunami alone. I'll lay even odds no public works projects, no tax refunds to the poor or middle class....Instead we'll get tax cuts for the rich and everyone else gets screwed.

Should be interesting...like the Chinese curse...

by delicatemonster (delicatemons@delicatemonster.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:54:01 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
This is the big fear, and, as Chris pointed out, Bernanke likely did himself no favors today by being so obviously panicked.  Slashing rates seventy five basis points signals that the Fed has lost it, and so we may well get ineffective monetary policy anyway.

Bush had better add some public works projects onto that stimulus package.

Lotta people are in a lotta trouble.

But house prices never go down, right?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:25:05 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Instead the Bush administration is aggressively fighting public works projects, trying to defund an extension of DC's Metro Rail to Dulles Airport.

Do markets understand that Bush is not interested in easing this economic crisis?

And the world will live as one

by Montereyan (robert at calitics dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:41:29 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Why do we need a Metro line to Dulles?  I don't understand this.  We have a perfectly good bus service out there from Falls Church.  Really, we should scrap Dulles and boost National, because Dulles is in the middle of friggin' nowhere and is a colossal dump.

How about Metro lines to more of the suburbs -- lines that people can, you know, use when the oil isn't flowing like it is these days?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:45:29 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Really, we should scrap Dulles and boost National, because Dulles is in the middle of friggin' nowhere and is a colossal dump.

Drew you say that either because you don't live anywhere near National Airport, like thousands have for years and years, and therefore don't mind the unrelenting noise of jets passing overhead, or you haven't tried flying non-stop from Washington to anywhere overseas (forgoing the pain, inefficiency, and overcrowding of JFK or Atlanta). National airport can only handle small numbers of 737s and smaller sized planes due to runway and space restrictions.

Now, the need for a light rail expansion to Dulles is debatable, but it could also service the communities between there and Vienna and help reduce car traffic to and from Washington.

won't wonders never cease? _ Snuffy Smith

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 07:57:25 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Actually, I live in Alexandria, and planes from National fly right over my apartment.  And, yes, I have flown non-stop to London-Gatwick from Atlanta.  The "pain, inefficiency and overcrowding" of ATL is greatly overstated.  Sure, the trains break down now and then, as one might expect in the city that is home to MARTA, but Atlanta's airport is run much more efficiently than every other airport I've flown from, with the possible exception of Newark.

I could get on with rail service beyond Vienna, but not when we've left so many suburbs inside the Beltway -- the entire Southwest portion of the Virginia suburbs, for example -- uncovered by Metro.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 08:27:53 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The "pain, inefficiency and overcrowding" of ATL is greatly overstated.

This is, by the way, especially the case if you're flying out of Concourse E, where the international flights go out.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 08:29:54 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The main problem with Atlanta, as with any other stopover from Washington, is the extra travel time it takes to get to and from your ultimate destination.  Why should Washingtonians have to stop over in NY, Boston, or Atlanta enroute to Europe. I agree generally with your assessment of Atlanta, Hartsfield. It's not a bad airport as they go (JFK is truly abominable).  Atlanta is efficiently laid out with fair travel services, but it is a very crowded airport.  I fly through there 4-8 times a year and have watched it become more and more crowded over the years. Boston also is not bad, but it's another stopover.

On the other hand, I have done just about anything to avoid JFK.  Each and every time I've had to stop over there enroute to or from Europe, it's been a disaster.

The noise in and around any airport is a major problem, thus the farther they can be efficiently placed from residential areas the better.  I worked in Rosslyn for 15 years.  Inside office buildings the noise wasn't bad, but out on the street one couldn't carry on a conversation when planes flew right over head every three - five minutes on some days.  I also live in the Dulles flight path now. Fortunately, we are about 25 miles away so while the noise is there it's not like closer in.  The flight path was changed to its current one (directly over our house) two years after we bought the house.  I still feel for those who live under the National AP flight path.

BTW, I agree that Dulles is a lousy airport.  It has been under renovation for at least the last 15 years.  I was embarrassed every time I arrived there and watched the hordes of international travellers get their first experience of the nation's capital.  It is getting better, so I'm told - I avoid it whenever possible now - but it's about time.

All that said, National airport is not and never will be a reasonable substitute for an international airport for Washington.

You are correct, of course, about No. Virginia being under served by metrorail.  My understanding is that it all happened because the Va. suburbs didn't want to pay for the extra lines. Nevertheless, I think the line out to Dulles will be an overall plus for efficient transportation in the area.  Many other large metro areas have such service from their international airports and I've found it to be a joy to use vs. taxis in most cases.  

won't wonders never cease? _ Snuffy Smith

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 10:47:56 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I've never flown into JFK, fortunately, but all the stories I've heard confirm your take.

Hartsfield-Jackson's going to become more crowded as long as Atlanta's becoming more crowded, I'm afraid, and -- assuming they don't run out of water (which, granted, seems to be an increasingly stupid assumption) -- that's not going to stop anytime soon.  Atlanta's fortunate to have a lot of unused land (its greatest asset and greatest roadblock to serious urban planning) around that section of town, so the option to continue expanding the airport is at least there, unlike in New York.

I'm not sure how much say the suburbs have on Metro, though.  Don't the Virginia DOT and the WMATA decide that?  I agree on the whole that the line to Dulles would be a plus, but the city is leaving itself wide open to the energy crisis by not building lines into the suburbs.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 24th, 2008 at 06:09:59 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The Dulles rail project is managed by the Washington airport authority (but paid for by the State and Feds), but there is controversy.  The sad story of the "secret" contract ("The state has refused to make details of the contract publicly available.") is covered by Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Line_(Washington_Metro)

but it appears (and I recall) local government participation.

won't wonders never cease? _ Snuffy Smith

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Thu Jan 24th, 2008 at 03:17:04 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
There is an interesting discussion of Japan here:

European Tribune: Debt Requires Growth: or Vice Versa? by ChrisCook on October 1st, 2007

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:38:31 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Could somebody please explain why there has to be a ZLB? Or does it then become a grant ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:42:32 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Well, if interest rates were negative, I could borrow a huge amount, convert it to cash (I mean actual banknotes), and repay the loan with SOME of those banknotes when it is due.

And start again.

Not very helpful for the economy.

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:59:05 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
So how did the pyramids get built?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 12:08:26 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Questions of a Reading Worker

Who built Thebes of the Seven Gates?
In the books are the names of kings.
Did the kings carry the slabs of rock?
And Babylon so many times destroyed -
Who rebuilt it so many times? In gold-shining Lima
Where did the construction workers live?
Where did the masons go the evening the Great Wall of China
Was finished?
Great Rome
Is full of triumphal arches. Who built them? Over whom
Did the Caesars triumph? Did the oft-sung Byzantium only have
Palaces for its inhabitants? Even in fabulous Atlantis
When the sea swallowed it the drowning masters
Shouted for their slaves.

Young Alexander conquered India.
He alone?
Caesar defeated the Gauls.
Didn't he at least have a cook with him?
Philip of Spain wept when his fleet went under.
Didn't anyone else weep.
Frederick the Second won in the Seven Years' War. Who
Else won?

On every page a victory.
Who cooked the victory feast?
Every ten years a Great Man.
Who paid the price?
So many reports.
So many questions.

-Bertolt Brecht

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 02:21:16 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Exactly. What is government for? Liberty, equality, fraternity. The values of cooperation, not competition. The values of working together, not against each other.

I'd add resistance as a basic value. Resistence to crap. The capitalist demand for growth is based on expanding the amount of crap on Earth. Creating it and selling it. It has to stop.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 02:53:03 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Yes damn all those people in the third world who want all this 'crap' capitalism produces, but hey I guess you can plan the economy so much better, I mean look at history central planning is a breeze! Capitalism doesn't demand growth, growth is the by product of Capitalism.  
by acrowe on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 05:13:22 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I have no interest in promoting central planning, nor capitalism. I have something entirely different in mind.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 05:19:12 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
if not controlled. But in fact capitalism does demand growth. Without growth, the capitalists can't hide the fact that they're ripping everybody off - including, and especially, the third world.

As far as damning them - hmmm. What an odd choice of words. I don't think that anyone here is doing that.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 06:18:48 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
And of course there is nothing wrong with growth as such - it just has to be sustainable.

A little tagline I often use about Finland is a quote from a Nokia exec, a few years ago - 'All we have in Finland is trees and brains'.

He's right, and both can be grown sustainably. Brains are the best resource we have - that the planet has. That is why education should be a priority investment, and teaching at all levels should be one of the most respected occupations in any society. But it is not.

Maybe that is one good explanation for why I like ET so much - we are teaching ourselves.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 11:06:29 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
WS is just opening, and already Bank of America is going to start the day off with a bang:

UPDATE: Bank Of America 4Q Net Down 95% On $6.3 Billion In Losses

Bank of America Corp.'s (BAC) fourth-quarter net income fell 95% as the company recorded a higher-than-expected $5.28 billion in collateralized debt obligation write-downs and said credit costs soared.

Bank of America executives in November estimated pretax CDO write-downs of at least $3 billion and said in December they would come in higher than that estimate.

The nation's largest retail bank and credit-card issuer recorded net income of $268 million, or 5 cents a share, compared with $5.26 billion, or $1.16 a share a year earlier. The company in December warned that earnings would be " disappointing," though it did expect to be profitable.

In addition to the write-downs, the company recorded $400 million losses to support certain cash funds and recorded subsequent write-downs of $400 million on securities purchased from the funds at fair value. The company said equity investment income fell $750 million "due to few opportunities for gains in the current markets."

That'll get the trading day off to a flying start.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:16:49 AM EDT
We seem to be seeing another knock-on effect of the panic.  Internet sites no longer responding, perhaps crashing from overload.  I was at my bank today, winning a greater credit facility, but for over four hours the bank's system could not be used.  Several net sites i frequent had unbelievably slow refresh times, or crashed.

i would also now expect more coordinated DOS attacks as well, although that is completely out of my area of expertise.  Which Baltic country was the test attack last year?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:46:09 AM EDT
Estonia.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:48:18 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Estonian panic now: According to Baltic sources, Estonian real estate market prices are falling down over 25% per year. In particular, the "YIT Ehitus" RE agency dropped valuation of its objects by 27% on January 7, and then by another 50% on January 17. That's wow...
by das monde on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 05:19:18 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Heh. My connection's been slow, but I thought it was just my provider.

Anybody outside of Germany experiencing problems?

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:48:50 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I have an account in an online bank that was apparently totally down -you could get the initial page but not login.
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:01:44 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The new form of bank runs ; instead of queues, websites crashing.

The concept that socialisation has to be linked to business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:30:08 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Not seeing any reports of that occurring anywhere.

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 11:16:00 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Aaannd they're off:

U.S. Markets Open With a Steep Fall - New York Times

Stocks opened sharply lower on Wall Street Tuesday morning after markets fell around the world over the last two days.

All the main indexes were down 3.5 percent or more.

A surprise and large cut in interest rates by the Federal Reserve just a week before a regularly scheduled the meeting initially boosted futures prices Tuesday morning but the rally did not last. Futures traded on Chicago Mercantile Exchange pointed to a 4 percent drop in the Standard & Poor's 500 stock index and a 422 point, or 3.5 percent, drop in the Dow Jones industrial average. Markets in Europe, however, trimmed some of their earlier losses after the Fed move.

In an apparent bid to head off a big sell-off in American markets, which were closed Monday in observance of Martin Luther King's birthday, the Fed lowered its target for the federal funds rate on overnight loans between banks to 3.5 percent, from 4.25 percent.



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:51:26 AM EDT
Seems that today will not be completely wasted:

CAC40 : 4.842,95 +2,08% at 22/01 16:52

I'm no market expert. Does somebody know why European markets are in better shape today?

by Xavier in Paris on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:57:38 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Maybe because they lost a bunch yesterday already?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 10:59:52 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
yes, but what I do find curious is that yesterday's loss in Asia and Europe where around 7% while in US today, it was only 2%
by Xavier in Paris on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 06:45:07 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
The bottom line is that monetary policy is almost entirely irrelevant now: the only solutions are fiscal, and structural.

I find this kind of liberal discourse quite amusing :) Cut taxes, or just abolish them like Ron Paul proposes.

For the moment this all looks like the failure of paper-currencies and not like a reprise of the 1929 Depression. While paper-currencies are kept unpegged to physical entities they are bound to dive in a resource constrained world.

Of course the Central Banks still have the option to close the paper flood gates and make the Economy decline faster than the resource flows to Society, but I doubt they'll take that action.

The LEAP2020 is forecasting the €uro going over 1.70 to the dollar still in 2008. That might well be the case, sending into recession important sectors of our economy. But then again, making it easier to access scarce resources that can help us undertake the social paradigm changes needed to enter the XXI century.

Vencit omnia veritas.

by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]a[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]gmail[dot]com) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 12:35:45 PM EDT
Yes Luis, I have to agree. The very idea that the solution to these problems is more government spending Just makes me chuckle to myself.

1.70EUR, could do depends if the ECB can hold its nerve, I am thinking the pound could well be the dollar or 2008

by acrowe on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
But then again, making it easier to access scarce resources that can help us undertake the social paradigm changes needed to enter the XXI century.

Remind me what these social paradigm changes are, Luis?

The very idea that the solution to these problems is more government spending Just makes me chuckle to myself.

And your solution is, acrowe?

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 09:33:09 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Damn it! I was all set for a good profit today and Bernanke ruined it! Guess I will have to take comfort in my small gain.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 at 01:54:23 PM EDT
Let´s save it for our international joint venture in Gaza.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._
by metavision on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 at 11:37:59 AM EDT


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