My Iowa Predictions

by ATinNM
Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:42:20 PM EST

Every blog in the entire frickin' Universe has an Iowa Prediction diary.

Why should ET be any different?

Instead of giving percentages I will give my top 3 predictions and why I put them there.

from the diaries. Use as a results thread when they come out. -- Jérôme


My Predictions:

DEM

  1.  Edwards
  2.  Clinton
  3.  Obama

Edwards: he has been campaigning in Iowa since 2003.  Has a lot of carry-over of support and a solid, in place precinct organization with experience of and working within the caucuses .  He is the largest 2nd choice Candidate and so will gather votes when Obama isn't viable from the 'Not Clinton' people and from the Clinton people when Hillary isn't viable.  That's a major, major, advantage and I think will put him over the top.

Clinton:  She is the establishment candidate.  The Clinton DLC faction will pull in enough 1st Choice votes to bring her into 2nd.  She has little 2nd choice support & that's why she won't win.  

Obama:  he will get some votes but the expectation of a mass turn-out of young people won't happen.  He lacks the precinct organizations of Clinton and Edwards.  He lacks the backing of the Establishment Democrats in Iowa.  He comes in 2nd in 2nd Choice preference and that's not enough to kick him over the top.

GOP

  1.  Huckabee
  2.  Romney
  3.  McCain

Huckabee -- he is exactly the candidate that will appeal to the southern and northern tier of counties.  He won't do all that great along the I-80 corridor but the western counties will pitch in to help him take it.

Romney -- The 'eh?' candidate.  People aren't thrilled about him but he has spent the bucks and has a sufficient precinct organization to carry him to second place.  The I-80 corridor will go heavy for him & that's how he gets to be #2.

McCain -- The 'Aw-heck' candidate.  He will come in third because he's not one of the other guys.  He is enough 'Not the Other Guys' and has the name recognition to pick-up enough scattered support to eke out a 3rd.  

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I think that the narrative coming out of Iowa on the Democratic side is going to be how Obama failed to meet expectations.

They opened the dorms at the University of Iowa for students who wanted to come back early to caucus.  Only two did.  That's pretty shocking.  My suspcion is that Obama simply fails to even be meet viability in many rural precints, and that Des Moines turns out hard for Edwards.  And that Edwards takes 40%+ of the delegates in  Iowa.  

I think that the weathers going to really reduce the number of Hillary voters, they're looking to older women voters. And right now its cold in most of Iowa. Well below freezing, and it's icy out.

We matter more than pounds and pence/ Your economic theory makes no sense "We work the Black Seam"-Sting
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 03:18:07 AM EST
A good friend of mine works for the Edwards campaign in Iowa, in some of the rural counties, and says that out there their main competition is Biden and Richardson (whose support is understated in the polls). Edwards does quite well in rural Iowa and I expect that will combine with enough support for him from folks in the cities to give him the victory.

My prediction is Edwards, Obama, Clinton (but I wouldn't be surprised to see Obama place third).

And the world will live as one

by Montereyan (robert at calitics dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 01:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really hope you are right about Edwards...but his winning is my prediction too! I think the battle over the next 2 months will be Hillary vs Edwards. Lets see what happens tonight!

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 04:26:12 AM EST
How does Edwards' organisation look outside of Iowa? If Obama were to win Iowa and New Hampshire, he would probably be able to get the nomination (not that would necessarily be a good thing). My "fear" is Edwards might not have the resources to beat Clinton.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:33:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's not much outside Iowa. Around August or September of 2007 they pulled their staffers from other early states like Nevada to concentrate everything on Iowa. Staffers in Iowa will be reassigned to NH, SC, or NV beginning tomorrow, but they aren't going to be paid.

Edwards is going to have to rely on the grassroots to be the building block of his campaign in the other early states, and hope that an Iowa win translates into a lot of donations. Obama and Clinton are MUCH better organized in NH and SC in particular, but also in states like California.

And the world will live as one

by Montereyan (robert at calitics dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 01:54:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quit that line of thinking.  This is not an auction.  Vote for the guy you want.  If he wins elections, he is "viable" whether or not he has $50 million laying around.
by paving on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 02:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the guy I want isn't running, and at any rate I don't get to vote. It is merely my most humble opinion that if it comes down to Edwards vs. Clinton, Edwards doesn't have the resources or the organisation to come out on top. Wasn't my intent to discourage anyone from voting for their preferred candidate.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In primary season, you don't need either an organization or resources.

If you win a few early, people will come flocking.

Kerry lat time was reduced to 2 or 3 staffers, no energy at all, and then he caught fire.

by Upstate NY on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:55:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, Americans will coalesce around a "winner" after Iowa.  That's the way this b/s works here.  Sad, but that's the predicament with our media and campaign rules.  Any statement about someone's "lack of viability" is designed to make people think they are backing a losing horse.  
by paving on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:24:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That hasn't been the case in the past. Look at the results from past elections. The Iowa winner hasn't won the nomination plenty of times.
by Upstate NY on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 10:07:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's the wikipedia history on the Iowa Caucuses. It's a predictor only 50% of the time:

History

The Iowa caucus is commonly recognized as the first step in the U.S. presidential nomination process for both the Democratic and the Republican Parties. It came to national attention in 1972, with a series of articles in the New York Times on how non-primary states would choose their delegates for the national conventions. Democratic operative Norma S. Matthews, state co-chair of the George McGovern campaign, helped engineer the early January start for Iowa. McGovern finished second to Edmund Muskie in the first early Hawkeye state caucus, but the momentum was palpable for an ultimate Democratic nomination in 1972 for McGovern in Miami. Four years later, the Iowa Republican Party scheduled its party caucuses on the same date as the Democrats.

In 1976 an uncommitted slate received the most support, followed by former Georgia governor Jimmy Carter, who came in a distant second, but won the most votes of any actual candidate. With no dominant front runner at the time, Carter was able to use the publicity of his "win" to achieve victory in the New Hampshire primary, and then to win his party's nomination and eventually the Presidency. Since then, Presidential candidates have increased their focus on winning the Iowa caucus.

In 1980 Republicans began the tradition of holding a straw poll at their caucuses, giving the appearance of a primary election. George H. W. Bush campaigned extensively in Iowa, defeating Ronald Reagan, but ultimately failed to win the nomination.

While they have been a financial boon to the state, the political value of the Iowa caucuses has gone up and down over the years. In 1988, for example, the candidates who eventually won the nominations of both parties came in third in Iowa. In elections without a sitting President or Vice President, the Iowa winner has gone on to the nomination only about half the time (see below).

When Iowa Senator Tom Harkin ran for the Democratic nomination in 1992, none of the other Democratic candidates chose to compete in Iowa, which minimized its importance in the nomination process. President Bush was unopposed on the Republican side.

While the Democrats have tried to preserve the position of Iowa and New Hampshire in their nominating schedules, the Republicans have not. Alaska and Hawaii generally have their caucuses before Iowa, and in 1988 the Hawaii victory of Pat Robertson and the 1996 Louisiana victory of Pat Buchanan over Senator Phil Gramm had a significant impact on the results in Iowa.

The caucuses are closely followed by the media and can be an important factor in determining who remains in the race and who drops out. However, the only non-incumbent candidate to win his party's caucus and go on to win the general election was George W. Bush in 2000. Neither Reagan nor Clinton won prior to their first terms. No incumbent President has run opposed in his own party's caucus since Jimmy Carter in 1980.

In the months leading up to the 2004 caucus, predictions showed candidates Dick Gephardt and Howard Dean neck-and-neck for first place, with John Kerry and John Edwards far behind them. Negative campaign ads attacking each other by the two front runners soured the voters on them, and a last minute decision by Kerry to put all his remaining money in Iowa swung voters towards him. Gephardt's presidential hopes were dashed and Dean's badly battered, as Kerry went on to become the second non-incumbent to win both Iowa and New Hampshire since Edmund Muskie in 1972.

by Upstate NY on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 10:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Edwards may have an advantage over Obama and Clinton in that he has opted for spending limits and public matching funds. All of the candidates have been burning through cash in Iowa, but Obama and Clinton have been outspending Edwards by a factor of 3:1 and 4:1 respectively.  Edwards is going to get $8.825 million in matching funds in either February or March of 2008.  If it's a close race that could place Edwards with a cash advantage as we move into the last set of states to vote.

We matter more than pounds and pence/ Your economic theory makes no sense "We work the Black Seam"-Sting
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 07:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... NH and SC ... the rest of the way to Feb 5 its just a skeleton structure waiting to be filled in, basically if he should score a win tonight.

It would, of course, by more dominated by volunteers and grass roots organizations than the other candidates, because he is under the campaign finance spending cap. But that's not a major problem for him, as if he is seen as a front-runner, he'll be able to attract the volunteers and grass roots supporters.

If he finishes second in Iowa, it had better be behind Obama, since he is never going to beat Clinton if Clinton goes into NH with a bump from an IA victory.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 07:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, you beat me to it!  I'd like to agree, but I'll go with these:

1.Obama
2.Edwards
3.Clinton

1.Huckabee
2.Romney
3.McCain

Edwards and Obama each get a good chunk of undecideds, putting them above Clinton.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:03:26 AM EST
Scratch that.  I meant:

  1. Romney
  2. Huckabee


Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your first prediction was 100% right.
In the morning TV stations translated speeches of candidates and I had impression that aenemic Republican campaign not started yet as the only electable person on Rep side Juliani kept low-profile, while Dems have fierce competition as they are poised for final Nov victory  with 99% probability.

I didn't follow American presidential campaign and have no clear opinion even as outsider. Just noticed Hillary was flanked by Bill and daughter from one side and from the other was no one but Madlein Albright!

Do Democrats know how hated Albright around the world, surely not less than any Republican foreign policy maker?

by FarEasterner on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 11:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure if Americans know the world hates Albright.  (I have to admit that I didn't, but I was really politically conscious during her time at State.)  Albright is an establishment Clintonian figure.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:20:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's Americans main problem they do not seem to understand that Albright foreign policy was not much different if at all different from Rice' and Hillary bold claim she will be a leader of the country respected not hated in the world sounds hollow.
by FarEasterner on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Edwards and Huckabee will win their respective party caucus as well. Alas, I don't think it will dent Clinton enough to deny her the nomination.
If McCain finishes third, having barely campaigned in Iowa, and wins New Hampshire, he might actually get the nod. Huckabee apparently bet just about everything on Iowa and don't have much of an organisation outside of it, and Romney, while having plenty of cash, is still...well, Romney.

(This post is going to be awfully embarrassing in a couple of months, when everything herein is proven to be absolutely wrong ;-)

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:04:31 AM EST
.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:14:06 AM EST
Bruce McF's diary is for that sort of comment !!

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 09:26:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's totally crap and you know it.  I was actually making a .

Do0 i dare insert a smiley here?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whomever wins America is f*#ked. No one can change things enough until the arrival of another great depression as many around here are predicting. And the best person then would be ?.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:31:33 AM EST
Paul Krugman, of course.

Alas, he won't run.

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 07:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, he'd be terrible on the stump.  I love Krugman, but, when you see him on television, he's a pretty quiet guy, not at all cut out for politics.

It's a shame, because he'd be a phenomenal president.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 07:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I bet he will be onthe phone for a Clinton or an Edwards presidency...

I am not so sure about an Obama presidency.. Krugman is so.. so... un-serious people...even shrill.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 09:52:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, at the end of the day, Krugman will go for whomever the nominee is.  Obama made a mistake dragging our party's resident lion-hearted economist into a fight, but my read of Krugman suggests that, at base, he's quite happy with the candidates and ready to kick ass and take names in November.

And most Democrats, I think, mirror that happiness and readiness, despite what some on Daily Kos would seem to suggest with all the anger directed at this or that candidate.  Reading undecided voters' statements in Iowa reveals that they find the field too good to narrow it down to one candidate in most cases.

The truth, in my view, is that we have a much better set of candidates than in 2004.  Even though I'm not a fan of Hillary, there are, as I mentioned, things I admire about her.  And there are things I admire about all of the candidates, honestly.  All are stronger than Kerry.  All are stronger than the Al Gore of 2000.  All brought something important into the race -- Edwards pulling us to the left and making us remember who the party is supposed to stand for, Obama bringing us swing voters, Clinton getting us ready to brutalize the opposition, Richardson keeping Iraq on the table and proving that even obese old hippie stoners can run for the White House ;), Biden bringing humor and seriousness, and so on.

It's been a good run-up to the primary season.  They've united around some basic proposals, haven't sniped at each other too much (while the GOP is in chaos with people hating on each other's preference), proven they can slaughter the Republicans with grassroots fundraising, and got the base so cranked up that we're likely to see record turnout tonight.  And, most importantly, the public seems poised to elect a Democrat with increased majorities in Congress.

All things considered, it could be a lot worse.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 10:08:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm glad there are some who are happy with this field.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 11:04:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm in a good mood and very excited.  Ask me again tonight when the results are in.  I may change my mind.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 11:10:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the US Democratic Party after all. It's a good field.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 04:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well - relatively. Although there's some evidence of personality disorders, none of the three front-runners are as batshit barking as the main Republican picks.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I'm not sure that 'Vote for me, I'm not completely eye-poppingly splutteringly chicken-explodingly insane' should really count as an election winning platform.

Edwards comes closes to having a real message. The others seem like more walking examples of triangulated expediency - tough on populism, tough on the causes of populism.

I still haven't forgiven Gore for not stepping up to the plate. Not that he would have been perfect, but he might have been less likely to drive right off the cliff without trying to turn the engine off.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder whether Gore supporters couldn't muster the 15% for viability in some precincts...

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Tough on ... populism, tough on the causes ... of populism".

After all, cadence is everything.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I'm not sure that 'Vote for me, I'm not completely eye-poppingly splutteringly chicken-explodingly insane' should really count as an election winning platform.

H'mmmm.  Well.  Yeah.  And if the average political reporter, average commentator, and average voter in the US had the average intelligence of the average turnip it wouldn't be that effective.

But with the GOPs field is running around proclaiming, "Vote for me! I am completely eye-poppingly splutteringly chicken-explodingly insane."

It works.


Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:01:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um - yeah. Point.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:08:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But.. as a better set of candidate.. the thing that makes them better than the rest is the health care plan and the inderect carbon tax they propose.

But in the other two fundamental issues: Pentagon budget and Fear/drug war, they stand ont he same side... with no end in sight for the way the US system works.

So, it is normal that a lot of Europeans do not expect great things for the rest of the world with an Obama or Clinton presidency.

And I am still not sure if Edwards wouold change the War on drugs/Fear dynamics as he seems to hint sometimes.

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 11:12:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... revolutionize the Fear/War/Empire locus as dramatically as most on ET would hope, but I seriously do think he can and will try to pull the Overton Window in the direction of reality.

Indeed, I wouldn't venture to say whether he would be doing so if reality was close to peaking through one edge of the frame, but given the current limits on the political discourse, and where he is standing, its to his advantage to shift it toward reality.

And I haven't seen even that much from either Senator Clinton or Obama ... both of them, for example, are on board for the expansion of the size of the Army and Marines, which is only required if the US is to be engaged "hot" occupations of the size of pre-surge Iraq for the indefinite future, while Edwards made the straightforward point that we should get out of Iraq first, before we look at long term force structure.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll go back to what I said at the start of this very long thread, some 12 hours ago: no one will have the power to make fundamental changes to the current political, economic, financial, military structures in the U.S., absent a massive train wreck in the U.S.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 07:36:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... that the movement conservatives wrought in America, in 1976. They didn't do it in one step, but in a series of efforts to budge the Overton window when it was a strain, and to move it as hard and as fast as they could when there was an opening. They took the festering through the middle of the American body politic and instead of treating the infection, harnessed the fever to their ends.

And now the opportunity is coming for a change election ... which is a substantially rarer thing in a Madisonian system than in a parliamentary system ... and the key is to get some effective movement back in the direction of reality. We have moved so far out into a narcissistic political fantasy that there is no hope of getting reality in the frame within eight years ... but unless we start making progress in the next eight years, there won't be anywhere near the same prospect of getting reality in the frame in the next thirty.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What Bruce said.  

This is why Obama is so frustrating.  We've a once in a lifetime chance to really change the US political system and what do we get?

Kumbaya, My Lord.  Kumbaya.

"Can't we all get along in the most wonderful country with the most wonderful people, in the wonderfulmostest wonderification-ness of it all?"

Pardon me whilst I wonderfully goeth & barf.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 02:14:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't necessarily disagree with what you all are saying. But, in my opinion, change will only come with a major crisis, probably economic. Who would react the best from our point of view? Who can say? A minor or semi-major economic recession? Forget any change. We need 15 % unemployment and massive forclosures. God strike me dead for saying that!

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 05:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The major crisis is really just there to remind people that there's a thing called reality happening outside their teeeeveees, and reality doesn't give a crap what Rush or Coulter or even Olbermann thinks.

Unfortunately in a crisis people are more likely to retreat to simple-minded narratives than move towards nuance and sophistication. So without good leadership, a crisis will just edge the Overton window further in the direction of insanity.

Obama is not the leader to deal with a crisis. He's too cosseted, too secretively smug, too intellectual and too unimaginative to cope with reality. He likes the old narrative just fine and he doesn't have any plans to change it.

Imagine a Depression without a New Deal.

That's what's going to happen now. And it's going to breed monsters.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 10:05:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Name me one political leader in America that you would have confidence in to lead in the event of major crisis?
Name me one in the UK, France, Germany, etc. etc.
I always thought Gore but he's not shown up. In the event of a major crisis, I would probably have to go with the Clintons, as sick as I am of Bush-Clinton-Bush.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean he's not shown up in the event of a major crisis?



We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:20:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant to run for president in 2008.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 01:27:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:

Imagine a Depression without a New Deal.

That's what's going to happen now. And it's going to breed monsters.

Yikes!

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We fairly well know what the alternative to the New Deal looked like.

Business Plot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Business Plot, the Plot Against FDR, or the White House Putsch, was a conspiracy involving several wealthy businessmen to overthrow the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933.

Details of the matter came to light when retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler testified before a Congressional committee that a group of men had attempted to recruit him to serve as the leader of a plot and to assume and wield power once the coup was successful. Butler testified before the McCormack-Dickstein Committee in 1934 [1]. In his testimony, Butler claimed that a group of several men had approached him as part of a plot to overthrow Roosevelt in a military coup. One of the alleged plotters, Gerald MacGuire, vehemently denied any such plot. In their final report, the Congressional committee supported Butler's allegations on the existence of the plot,[2] but no prosecutions or further investigations followed, and the matter was mostly forgotten.

General Butler claimed that the American Liberty League was the primary means of funding the plot. The main backers were the Du Pont family, as well as leaders of U.S. Steel, General Motors, Standard Oil, Chase National Bank, and Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company. A BBC documentary claims Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to the 41st and 43rd US Presidents respectively, was also connected.[3]

End result: Fascism, american style.

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 05:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... unless the ground work has been done and the foundation has been laid.

I guess what I am saying is that, yeah, sure, change dramatic enough to bring American within squinting distance of having any resemblance to our national mythos would require a massive shock.

But that's only necessary ... its not sufficient.

And there's no question in my mind that we already have the massive shocks lined up in the thirty years ahead, so what is really urgent is getting that groundwork done and getting the foundation laid. Otherwise we are heading even further into V is Vendetta terrain when a shock comes along that is even more traumatic in its impact than our month/year version of 9/11.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 02:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope you're right with all your predictions, they make for the most interesting race going forward on the R side (a Romney washout is too much to hope for) and they sync with my preferences on the D side.

But, I think Obama's ground game is much better than Howard Dean's was (the archetypal candidate with wide national support but no understanding of how to turn it into Iowa caucus numbers) and I think he'll come in ahead of Edwards. In particular, he strategy of "running against the lefties" will, thanks to the Iowa rules, allow him to bus in "Independents" and "soft Republicans" (who are apathetic about the R primary) and slap Edwards down from the right.

At which point he's likely to roll all the way to the nomination. But I hope I'm wrong and you're right.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 08:17:33 AM EST
That may play a role, but, while independents seem to like people who'll take shots at their own parties (insert various McCain examples here), Obama's statements haven't been making headlines outside of Daily Kos and a few of the other liberal blogs.  (And, to be fair, several of these things were third-hand "knowledge," without any serious sourcing, as in the case of the "bash Gore and Kerry" incident.)

One thing I'll say for Obama, as an aside: I think what Obama got right, win or lose, that the eventual nominee should note was tying together an infinitely superior general election theme.  Edwards's theme is great for primaries, but I think Jonathon Alter of Newsweek made a fair point when he said that you have to be careful with the confrontational style.  Played correctly, it's solid.  But, played incorrectly, it will turn people off, allow your opponent to attack from a defensive position (or, worse, belittle you the way Cheney was able to do to Edwards in 2004) and destroy your campaign.  Edwards can deliver such a theme convincingly, and I hope that if he does win tonight he'll have taken note.

The reason I don't see Edwards winning is that I think he's going to pay a price -- a small one but a real one, unfortunately -- for a certain depression factor.  I think there will be a few people who, despite leaning towards Edwards, go for Obama working with the assumption that Edwards won't beat Hillary.

It's a dumb assumption to work with, in my view, because people should, to put it in as cheesy a way as possible, "vote their hopes, not their fears," but that's the major problem I see for Edwards.  And, as it hasn't really been discussed directly in the non-blogosphere arenas, it hasn't really been addressed directly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see him losing a bit for that, and a bit lost is a catastrophic loss for Edwards, I'm afraid.  (That's one point on which I think the press got it right without needing to manufacture a gain or loss of momentum.)  His campaign is sort of like the NFL teams who have to pray for a certain combination of wins and losses from others in order to make the playoffs and have a shot at the Super Bowl.  Or, for the one-game analogy, it's a bit like hoping for the (one-win) Miami Dolphins to beat the (undefeated) New England Patriots.  There was a chance, and it had its exciting moments, but (hope though we Dolphins fans did) it just didn't happen.

I believe beating Hillary is critical to the next four years.  Again, that's not because I think she'd be a bad president or because I hate her or because she's a woman.  Hillary is incredibly intelligent, hard-working and probably tougher than I could ever dream of being.  I really do admire her for putting up with all of the horseshit -- from the Republicans, from the press, from her white-trash husband, all of it -- she's had to put up with for so long.  But I believe we've got to beat her, because she'd be mediocre (as Clintons tend to be) at a time that really and truly calls for a candidate with the potential for transformational leadership.  Any of the others in the top five, with the possible exception of Richardson, have that potential.  All that said, I must admit I, too, am fearful that Hillary would bury Edwards.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 08:59:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hope you're right.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 08:35:54 AM EST
when do we get to know ? tomorrow morning london time ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 09:29:17 AM EST
Around 2AM London time, I believe.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 09:30:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I suppose I'll just have to stay awake till midnight in snow encrusted Finland.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 12:11:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bush won't be waiting up with you.  Which should make you feel a little better about it, right?

I think it's telling that the White House press secretary  doesn't seem to have a clue what time the results will come in.  But then, we've already established that she doesn't have a clue about much, anyway.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 12:25:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yes, I feel much better. Having a greater attention span than a thick plank is most comforting...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 01:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, give the guy a break. He's been meaning to finish reading "My Pet Goat" for years now...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:25:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, have you ever read My Pet Goat?  The most Deridaful analysis of global politics since Soponge Bobe!

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For some reason that made me think of Bush and Derrida in the same sentence.

I think my brain may have just melted.

Ow.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:37:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can clean brains out of the couch with a little club soda and some salt.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:41:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was watching Pulp Fiction the other night...

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:55:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is this from experience?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 07:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
..And I am so not going to ask how you know this.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 07:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude, you can clean everything with club soda and a little salt.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 04:38:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well if he's not waiting up because he's going to declare himself caesar before the end of the year so it doesn't metter, that might not make me feel better.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 01:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even the Caesars knew they had to fear the people. I don't think anyone can provide that much panem et circenses.

Anyway, here's my prediction:

  1. Huckabee
  2. Romney
  3. McCain

  4. Obama
  5. Clinton
  6. Edwards

/will stay up tonight

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 03:42:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well by coincidence I need to be out in my back garden to see if I can see the Quadrantids tonight, they should peak at about 2 in the morning here. so I should be up for the result too.

Prediction

1 Huckabee
2 Romney
3 McCain

1 Obama
2 Edwards
3 Clinton


Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow I was right!

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 06:08:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Damn, I missed the Dems by 0,2% (Edwards beats Clinton) and the Reps by less than 300 votes (Thompson beats McCain). Had anybody Thompson in third place?

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 10:33:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I admit I don't know either. When are the results in?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Call to Order happens at 6:30 PM Central Time, or 12:30 AM GMT.  Figure 30 minutes of miscellaneous business (eating donuts, drinking coffee, talking to neighbors -- the important stuff.)  Around 7:00 (1:00 GMT) they should start the process and by 7:30 returns from the lower population/turnout precincts should begin to come in.  

Interesting things to look for:

  1.  Turn-out.  Heavy turn-out is required for Obama to win.  (It won't happen, but you can look for it.  ;0

  2.  Edwards MUST do well in the early returns.  The rural precincts will be reporting first and he needs to really do well to overcome Clinton's advantage in the I-80 corridor where the big cities are.

  3.  If a surprise comes it will be noted in these early returns.

  4.  Look for turn-out numbers in Des Moines (Polk County,) Cedar Rapids (Lynn County,) and especially Iowa City (Johnson County) and Ames (Story County.)  The last two are home to the Univ. of Iowa and Iowa State, repectively, and for Obama to win there must be an unusually large turn-out.  

  5.  Des Moines is the state capital and center of the Establishment Dem organization.  If Clinton loses this area she is scrod.

  6.  On the GOP side look for the returns from Mason City (Cerro Gordo County - IIRC,) Sioux City (Woodbury County), and Council Bluffs (Pottawattamie County.)  If Huckabee wins here he wins big.

  7.  Huck-a-duck-a-bumblebee also needs to do well in the early returns.

  8.  The number 3 on the GOP side should emerge early.


Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.
by ATinNM on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:46:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First glimpse of results (from CNN) gives Edwards the lead with 45% in 2% of the caucuses (and a large turnout)

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 08:30:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Correction 42 - now going to 36% at 5% with Obama at 33%

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 08:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Final Zogby-Reuters-CSPAN Daily Tracking Poll:

Obama 31
Edwards 27
Clinton 24

Obama's up four points since December 30th.  Edwards is up three points.  Clinton is down seven.

Huckabee 31
Romney 25
Thompson 11
McCain 10

From the 30th, Huck's up two.  Mitt's down three.  Thompson's up three.  McCain's down one.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 10:13:20 AM EST
FYI: Margin of Error is 3.3%.  So Clinton is significantly down, and Obama's significantly up.  Nothing statistically significant on Edwards.

My read of this is that the undecideds are breaking, and they're breaking for the Darkie McCrackhead and his Trial-Lawyer life partner, as I expected.  Reports on the ground that I've read support that, but make of it what you will.

It's going to be an interesting night.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 10:18:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the effect of peer-pressure/groupthink is what will really determine this outcome.  I expect that actual event to take away from Obama's polling %'s, similar to what happened with Dean (who had other issues, too).

Word on the street is that Edwards has reached into the deeper/rural precincts, playing the numbers game.  I expect his support is probably going to increase on this basis.

Common wisdom is that bad weather is bad for Obama, possibly bad for Clinton and a wash for Edwards.

Also, the 2004 edition had a ton of Republicans show up b/c they didn't have any election of their own to attend.  This probably has something to do with the way things went that year.

Remember that Iowa is a midwestern, conservative, older state with a Democratic history.  It's a quiet, under-stated kind of liberal place.  My feeling is that  a drumbeat of change won't work so well there and neither will talking down to the plebs, which is why I gotta say Edwards is in good position.

The real trouble is the backroom scheming that happens.  Campaigns and dirty tricks are the real story tonight with how they move groups back and forth, etc.  The on-the-ground-in-the-room dynamics are key and Edwards has done this recently in Iowa, Clinton has done it in the past and Obama's team has done it for others but he himself has not.  All three are lawyers so I'm sure they know how to game a system but Edwards did a great job of it in 2004 so I'm going to guess that he knows something about how to work this particular system.

by paving on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 04:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgot to mention:

Ron Paul 10%

Ron Paul is tied with McCain and Thompson.  I'd been expecting a big surprise from somewhere, and John McCain being buried by Ron Paul may be it.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 11:08:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't quite put a finger on it, exactly, but I find myself increasingly disliking Obama. Something about playing nice to the Rightwing and almost putting down the Left really gnaws at me. I'd rather have a person who is passionate and outspoken, which the Dems haven't had in a long time. And a lot of people say a candidate can't be too confrontational, but you better be ready for yome tough play when it comes to running against the Republicans. I really think Dean would have beaten Bush if he had won the nomination in 2004, but he wasn't organized well enough in Iowa and New Hampshire. (Iowa and New Hampshire!! How did these two small, very white, conservative states get in the position to heavily influence who are the candidates??)

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 12:27:48 PM EST
Well, Kerry did beat Bush (and deservedly so).

They would just have rigged the election more had it been Dean.

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 12:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
whataboutbob:
I can't quite put a finger on it, exactly, but I find myself increasingly disliking Obama.

I've been cheerfully posting Obama hit comments over at the Big Orange for a couple of months now.

Obama has always creeped me out. He just seems like all PR, all the time, and then once in a while the mask slips and you can see a quiet seething patrician contempt for the little people.

He's happy to farm the little people with his charm, and he's happy to consider condescending to help them once in a while. But he doesn't really see them as equals, and I suspect he's only interested in their lives to the extent that they can help him fulfill his ambitions and vision for himself.

Edwards seems to actually care in a genuine and connected way. I suppose that could just be an act too, but I have a much harder time seeing Edwards as a faker, if only because he'll have burnt a lot of bridges and made a lot of enemies in this campaign.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find Hillary's utter lack of charm and pretense of caring about the little people somehow comforting.  I don't trust Obama, despite his pretty reassurances, and I wonder whether I can trust Edwards (based on what?)

I know I can't trust Hillary to care about me.  Therefore, she can't play me, and I can't be deeply disappointed when she sells us out.  

I know.  It's a sick game of lowered expectations.  But it gets rid of the stress of the voters and candidates pretending to like each other...

You all have a month to talk me out of this.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I for one wouldn't try, On your own concience be it ;-)

(not that I have a personal choice, apart from none of the other side)

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:36:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why don't you just vote for someone who you like but won't win anyway? That way you won't be disappointed.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would, if there were someone I liked!!!

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Write in Gore, then.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And have my ballot thrown out?  (Yes, they can do that.)  There are down-ballot races I am actually excited about, and want to vote for.  So I want my vote to be counted.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 05:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well if there's not someone you want to vote for, theres definitely someone you want to vote against, that should cut the field down.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is?  Who?  Any of them would be an improvement.


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:08:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well who do you like least?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:09:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They are all pretty unlikeable.  Kucinich perhaps more than the others.  I like him the least.  But this should not be about who I like.  It should be about who I want running the country.

Who do I want to run the country?  Gore?  Bill Moyers?  Putin?  Unicorns?  

I have to make a choice.   I guess I will take comfort in the fact that my choice has not made a difference in 15 years.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So it's all about picking the winner?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poemless: Who do I want to run the country?  Gore?  Bill Moyers?  Putin?  Unicorns?

Migeru: So it's all about picking the winner?

...

Do you have access to some information I don't?  Please share!


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 01:22:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, I'm replying to my choice has not made a difference in 15 years.

Is picking the winner the only way that your vote makes a difference?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 01:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How else would my vote make a difference?  I suppose that if I lived in FL in 2000 that might be true, that I would have made a difference by voting for someone who lost anyway- Nader.  

I hate it when you do this thing where you understand every well what I meant to say : the person I voted for has lost, but act like you don't.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 01:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With that reasoning, your vote only makes a difference, regardless of who you vote for, if the election is decided by a few votes. If you vote for the winner but they win in a landslide, your vote was also inconsequential.

But that can't be the point of voting, can it?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 05:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This line of reasoning is how I concluded that voting is tribal. Since your vote does not change anything, the point must be found in the voter, not the vote.

My conclusion is that you vote to express your part in, and support for, your group (however you define it). Getting a candidate accepted as the probable winner gets the people who wants to identify with the winning party. Getting a candidate defined as the underdog gets those that wants to identify with the underdog. And so on.

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 07:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly, the value of the vote is in actually casting it.

There was a point made that on the referendum on the Spanish Constitution of 1978 a lot of the campaigning was against abstention. Those unreconstructed fascists who voted against fell in the trap of validating the democratic system by casting a vote.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 07:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose I should have said Like for the job least.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you dislike about Gravel and Kuchinich?
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 at 06:31:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Dean's biggest problem was his campaign team. He had a few people on board that just weren't up for it and I think gave him bad advice.  The institutional opposition to him in favor of Kerry was far stronger in 2004 than we see with Hillary/Obama against Edwards.  I think anyone who watched closely and understands politics can see that Dean would have had a very strong chance of beating Bush in 2004 and the Republicans knew that.  A very large number of non-democrats caucused in Iowa in 2004 because there wasn't a Republican caucus they had to attend instead.  

The media of course was very against Dean as soon as he opened his mouth about media regulation, big surprise.  Edwards has done the same this time around but knew going in what the effect would be.  Edwards is much savvier than Dean and has a far greater grasp of long-term strategy in a political situation, his trial lawyer experience is huge here.  Remember that Edwards is a guy who won a senate seat in North Carolina as a DEMOCRAT in the late 90's.  That is some miraculous stuff.

In terms of "aggression" or "rhetoric" or primary/general election differences it's all b/s.  Nothing said the past two months will be remembered come August/September.  How one wins the primary is not especially important in a general election when you have a party apparatus behind you going against an "enemy" who is genuinely not on your side.  

Tonight is really fascinating because there are 8 or 9 people who might be the next US President and that picture will clarify greatly after all is done in Iowa.  Even the mere thought of someone other than Bush being the President is inspiring.

I also see major potential for party re-alignments depending on how things shake out.  The Republican Party is dangerously close to a split on coalition lines.   I also think that if the GOP genuinely splits the Democrats will be right behind them.  The political realignment will look as such:

Right Wing/Christian Party (15% base)
Libertarian Party (10%)
Centrist Party (left wing Repubs and "moderate" Democrats - 30%)
Corporatist Party (Romney/Giuliani's/Lieberman's - 25%)
Progressive/Green Party - (left wing Dems and Greens/Nader/Kucinich types 15%)

That represents a clearer view of the actual political brea