Why did Edwards pull out? Because McCain won Florida

by BruceMcF
Wed Jan 30th, 2008 at 10:58:45 PM EST

This is real quick ... I also did not understand why Edwards felt he had to pull out ... but the week leading up to South Carolina should have given me one clue.

After seeing a recounting of a conference call, it does make sense ... Edwards feels that McCain has a very high likelihood of rapidly wrapping up the Republican nomination.

And if the Republican party has a nominee by mid-February while the Democratic party goes to the convention with the nominee still undecided, the Democrats concede the high ground to the Republicans, in an election that the Democrats ought to be able to win handily.

So stepping back makes it far more likely that a perceived nominee will come out of February 5th, and then if nobody comes out as the nominee presumptive after Feb. 12 (MD/DC/VA), then when Texas and we Buckeyes vote in March 4th, that'll wrap it up.

Of course, that also explains why no endorsement ... if John Edwards feels that he can bring the race to a close by endorsing, that's when he will endorse.

I'm not sure how public this conference call was, as I was forwarded one report on the contents. But that would seem to be the main story.


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What a dismal collapse into celebrity and "HISTORY".  I don't know when I've been so disgusted, at least when Bush won it was with Republican support-here we have a moderately progressive candidate, one that at least has his eyes open to the general issues, and we go flying off like a crow to a shiny object.

I apologize for my country, and I advise you (for what my advice is worth) to really bring pressure to bear on your leaders cause they are going to get some serious arm-twisting now that the corporatists have no losing hand possible in the US.  Once in 30 yrs we had the conditions and the candidate that would have made real change possible and we threw it away for an empty suit and another Clinton-and that is IF they can beat the republicans when they get the smear machine ramped up good and proper.

Enough of this I'm off to some European topic-Train blogging, one of my favorites.

Hello everybody, hope you are all well, I've been throwing time and money into the primary rathole over here, but I think I'm awake now.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 12:27:19 AM EST
I am not dismayed at all. This is a much later collapse into celebrity than would have happened even in 2004 ... in 2004, he would have had to pull out now because of no money. As it was, he had the money to go to the convention, and pulled out for strategic political reasons.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 12:52:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
--would stop doing things for strategic political reasons, and start doing what needs to be done!  If everyone who actually preferred Edwards, but voted for Obama for "strategic political reasons" (i.e. to stop Mrs.Clinton), had simply voted straightforwardly for Edwards, he'd have been the nominee.  At the very least, he'd have been so competitive that he'd have had no reason to drop out for strategic political reasons.  

And then I could have voted for him myself, in California's primary next week.  How I long to vote for a Democrat I actually like--for anyone I actually want to vote for--in a California primary!  But it doesn't seem to be possible, for "strategic political reasons," for this to happen, no matter how early they schedule the California primary.  And thus I am always, effectively, disenfranchised.

by keikekaze on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 07:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You still can ... if some voters start the practice of only voting "for" in primary elections, then that reshapes the electoral terrain. If you find nothing to vote "for" with either candidate, vote for Edwards. There's nothing wrong with sending a signal ... the Mess Media won't understand it, but political pros will know that its the tip of an iceberg result.

And only the voters can change that ... the candidates can only work with the electoral terrain that we offer them.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 08:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Welcome to ET, keikekase!

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 08:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bruce McF--I like "Mess Media."  I hadn't heard that one before!
by keikekaze on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 09:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... when the media establishment loses its "Mass" ... that's all that's left.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 10:46:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
between people intending to run the government and power.
Its purpose is convince voters to pick a candidate for "strategic political reasons".
Such an electoral process works ... against common people.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 12:07:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How I long to vote for a Democrat I actually like--for anyone I actually want to vote for--in a California primary!

Sadly true- my feelings also- and a perfect illustration of how broken the candidate selection and nominating process really is.

Equally sadly, the process of selecting a candidate lineup in Europe --at least in France- seems equally broken. Look who hands his hands on the wheel.


Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 03:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe.  The fortunate thing is that McCain, as of now, cannot hope to compete with either Clinton or Obama on fundraising.  Many of Clinton's donors are maxed out, but she should be able to bring in new ones with Super Tuesday.  Obama's got several hundred thousand donors, mainly giving small amounts, so he's in good shape.

McCain, on the other hand, is broke.  (I believe he's taking the public financing, too, so he'll remain broke.  I could be wrong about that, though.)  So that's time effectively bought by the Dems.  And I think McCain may have made a mistake pissing off Romney tonight.  (He stands for nothing, but he's got a boatload of cash to hammer St John with.)

And, with Edwards out, the press finally has its woman/black-guy fight, so I doubt McCain is going to get massive press by simply rolling over Mittster.

Edwards is going to be in California tomorrow, picketing with the writers, and there are some endorsement whispers going.  (It's impossible to say who it'd go to, if it's true, since both Obama and Clinton will be in LA for the debate.)  Richardson is also likely to endorse this week, and, after having some pretty kind words for Obama in the WaPo the other day, I do note that Clinton has no plans to be in New Mexico, while Obama does.  Conventional wisdom holds that Richardson goes with Clinton, but you never know.

My sense is that we'll have a pretty good idea after Tuesday.  A large Clinton win sows it up for her, while Obama pulling off surprises probably gives he the big momentum.  One of the two will be under massive pressure to get out, I'd guess.

Personally, I'm out of the prediction business from here on out, since, after pretty good ones in 2006 and Iowa, my predictive abilities seem to have gone to shit.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 01:01:49 AM EST
... was a source of free benefit to McCain, especially in California and Florida where, because of his support for the Immigration Reform, he is viable in the General Election ... that could offset their money advantage.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 12:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the general wisdom was that it is bad for a party to get the race decided to early, as the media then focuses on the other race?
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 01:16:44 AM EST
Depends on the circumstances.  Again, in this case, it could go either way and depends wholly on how ugly things get between Obama and Clinton.  I think it's going to get pretty ugly, unfortunately.  The Clintons bombed him quite a bit up to this point, and today in Denver he went at both of them harder than I've seen before.

If it stays clean, it'll be good for the Dems, because it will keep McCain off the front page while churning interest in the Democrats.  But that's quite an if, and you need only have a look at the blogs and the stories that have dominated the news for the last few days to see why.  The NY State National Organization for Women press release -- the one alleging Ted Kennedy had betrayed women by endorsing Obama -- went pretty big tonight.  And Bill Clinton's Jesse Jackson comment -- really a non-story when placed next to Bill Shaheen's "coke dealer" comment -- has been pretty big, too.

So the potential for the gender/race issue to explode is certainly there, and you can bet the press will want that, because it'll sell a ton of advertising.  That said, it doesn't seem to be a big issue among actual primary voters outside of the blogs so far.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 01:29:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"No publicity is bad publicity" is for movie stars, not politicians.

We could end up with a 1884 Republican scenario, when the mugwumps bolted.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 12:55:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iowa, where Edwards has spent most of the last 5 years campaigning went to Obama.  Even Clinton got more delegates if less votes.

SC -- distant 3rd at 17-18% even though it's the state of his birth and the area where "only (Edwards) can make it competitive".  Evidently not.

Neveda  -- 4%.......

FL   -- 17-18%.

MI -- uncommitted lost badly to HRC.  The lions share would have been Obama.

No money left to campaign across the nation, no momentum, the unions need to move on before Super Tuesday etc.  He's just accepting that it's better to step aside and let people have the binary choice than to finish so far back as to be irrelevant anyway. He's not crazy like Mitt to the point of wasting his fortune chasing rainbows.

by HiD on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 01:40:46 AM EST
The unfortunate thing for Edwards was that he simply had too many things going against him.  Most importantly, perhaps, the post-Iowa media frenzy was utterly ridiculous.  Edwards beat Clinton, but Clinton's third-place finish was so "stunning" -- no, I don't know why either, since it was a decent bet based upon typical voter behavior -- that she became an even bigger story than Obama.  So Edwards got shut out and never recovered.

He also suffered second-run syndrome.  Democrats don't tend to give people second chances once they've run and lost.  The GOP rewards it (McCain, Dole, Reagan, Nixon, etc), hence the view of Republicans nominating whomever it is whose "turn" has arrived.  I may be wrong, but I believe the last Dem to take the nomination after a failed run was Adlai Stevenson.  Gore ran twice, taking the nod the second time, but only after serving as Veep for eight years.

Given that conventional wisdom required Edwards to win in Iowa, since he'd "spent four years there," -- in truth, that was utter nonsense, because he didn't spend much more time there than Obama or Clinton -- he likely took a hit on fundraising and support after finishing second and being wiped out of the news.  Coming up with only 4% in Nevada was devastating, given its supposed working-class, union-based electorate.  And losing one's home state means certain death.

Again, much of it, especially with regard to press coverage, is unfair.  Edwards supporters are right to be angry about it.  But that's the silly world we live in.  It is what it is.

I'd hoped he'd stay in to try to play kingmaker.  That seemed his intention, and it seemed a logical one.  For now, I'm simply hoping it has nothing to do with his wife's cancer.

I don't think he's going to be irrelevant, though.  There's a good chance he's the next Attorney General, which I like.  He probably doesn't want the Veep slot, while AG gives him a very pubic position in which he can make some real differences in his causes.  It also perhaps keeps his political career alive.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 02:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He'll make a fine Atty Gen.

He lost my interest when he couldn't make NC competitive in 2004.  So much for making the South competitive.

I disagree with your IA assessment.  He'd been going there non-stop for years.  If the best he could do was 3rd in delegates that shows he's not going to out sell either of the other 2 anywhere else.  It was a flop.

After that it was all down hill in the voting booth figures.  Forget the media.  The votes didn't come in states with small media markets (only a very few watch cable political bs) and where grass roots campaigning is the key.  Edwards supporters need to blame something but can't stand the idea that the problem was the voters having a look but deciding to go with one of the other 2 by 5:1....

by irrelevant, I only meant if he was a very distant 3rd and only got a few delegates, he would have lost any relevancy before the convention.  

As for a future political career, maybe he should try Governor of NC to polish up that claim of southern appeal.  

by HiD on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 02:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, to be fair, I'm not sure NC could've been made competitive even if Kerry had chosen Jesus as his running mate.  Edwards was still the obvious choice for his compelling story and speeches, and the fact that he lent Kerry some "ruralization" when Kerry was being painted as some kind of Yankee aristocrat.

Was he third in delegates for Iowa?  I know he ran second among state convention delegates (the tally shown on television that night), but I wasn't aware of him coming in third on actual DNC delegates.

Some Edwards supporters do, indeed, have a need to blame something, and some are quite nasty, but I think they make a valid point on the media.  The press coverage of this race has been complete shit.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 02:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Edwards was always the 'We're still a democracy because we have a real fire-breathing eat-the-rich stand-up but aw shucks what a shame he didn't win' candidate.

I'd love to believe otherwise, but he was never really in the running.

There's no solid progressive narrative in the US, and no media space for progressive ideals. dKos isn't much better. The Dems would rather eat each other than agree on real change.

There seems to be an incredible blindness to practical issues. It's all about the most superficial take on superficial narratives, with people apparently supporting whoever makes them feel good about themselves.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 04:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Dems have been eating each other for at least forty years, so that's nothing new.  Edwards was very much in the running prior to the post-Iowa blackout, and let's be honest: It was the cry and Bill Clinton's pre-NH meltdown that did the most to assist that.

There was only ever going to be one anti-Clinton vote.  The press made sure of that by solidifying her status throughout 5/6s of 2007.  There was a shot at changing that -- or at least I'd hoped there was -- after Iowa, but they're the Clintons.  For all the talk of the press "hating them" (a total crock of shit given how reporters play into their narratives), the primaries were written as Hillary vs Someone Else long ago, as anyone who's watched the whole time knows.

Of course people vote for whomever makes them feel good.  And Edwards is no exception there.  And, yes, it fucking stupid.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 05:00:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed on all counts.
I've marveled for many years at the American lack of the ability to cooperate, to compromise, to adopt a strategy incorporating common social goals, on all sides of the social spectrum in the US. The Repubs don't really do much better- the rank and file Repub just surrendered his or her input, and took what was served up on the political/ideological plate--and their party has been largely destroyed as a consequence. And now that I've a good big dose of life and politics in Europe, it's the same-a bloody epidemic of squabbling over chicken bones, while the same old oligarchy eats the chicken.
I search for central causes- social processes, ideas that might be the major influences in producing such a gigantic body of tame people, and ironically, it often seems to come down to "competition" as embodied in the neoliberal/capitalist story.
A linear, two-dimensional mechanistic story that reifies "competition" as a way to improve things, and is widely believed, made Edwards' story of strength through cooperation, compassion, class consciousness  --- just incomprehensible.     He never had a chance.


Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 03:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Edwards came out of Iowa with one less delegate than Clinton--and six less than Obama.  On the day he dropped out, Edwards was still quite competitive in the delegate numbers, all of which are still tiny compared to the number needed to nominate anyone.
by keikekaze on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 07:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A VP candidate can't "make a state competitive" if he is not sent in to campaign for that state. Indeed, selecting a running mate from NC and then refusing to send him to campaign in NC would, if anything, reduce the chances of the ticket ... NC will understand that they've been written off, if they see the "favorite son" at the campaign launch and then he never comes back to campaign.

Up here in Ohio, the counties where the Kerry campaign sent Edwards to campaign in, those were the ones where they outperformed Gore/Lieberman. Where Kerry campaigned, they did no better.

I put the result down to the top of the ticket and voter suppression, but still and all, Edwards helped the ticket in Ohio, and the Republicans have never taken the White House without Ohio.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 08:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
bollocks

If you can't carry your own state, where you've been a Senator etc etc you don't have much to add to a ticket.  Same with Gore in 2000.  Says a lot when your home state won't even hold their nose and back you.

nice try though.

by HiD on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 12:22:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Its entirely hypothetical whether or not he could carry his home state, since he was not permitted to try.

So, yeah, I'm calling BS on you dropping an old stale turd of right wing talking point that falls apart if someone pokes at it with their toe.

All it says when a campaign does not ask people for their vote and then the campaign loses is that you are likely to lose where you don't try to win.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 01:54:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yes it was put to the test.  An election was held.  Not even close.

If you have to campaign aggressively to win your home state there's a problem.  

I realize you are an unhappy Edwards backer, but get real.  He came in a distant 3rd in this race.  Time to get over it and move on.

by HiD on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 04:53:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... there's a problem'.

No, having to campaign at all in a state is not a problem, its a fact of life. If US Presidential politics, a campaign that abandons a state where it does not enjoy a strong PV advantage at the outset to the other party, does not win the state.

Putting the hypothesis "to the test" involves campaigning and losing. The top of the ticket conceding a state and losing is not something that the bottom of the ticket can conceivably do anything to change, so a bottom of the ticket not flipping a Republican PV state to blue in those circumstances is a "no observation" data point.

Judging a candidate on that basis says either the person making the judgment is gullible to Mess Media talking points, or else the person making the judgment is arriving at a foreordained conclusion and and finds the argument a convenient rationalization.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 02:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but Edwards ran behind him.  Says something.

If John Edwards had insisted on campaigning in his home state, he could have given it a shot.  Suspect he also knew he couldn't flip that situation given his own weak standing there.  C'est la vie.  He added nothing to the ticket in the end like a 20 yr younger John Glenn might have.  Favorite sons usually have some extra support.

I get very little info from the mass media.  Blaming your problems/losses on them also says something.  Edward's message did not sell.  Not in 2004 and not again in 2008.  Not in states with retail politics nor in those with wholesale messaging.  Sorry.  At some point you gotta move on.  Or you can wring your hands until they are sore.  Up to you.

by HiD on Tue Feb 5th, 2008 at 06:10:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The flaw with the conventional wisdom is that it does not apply when the facts are not the conventional facts. Edwards has $1m in monthly salaries and raised $3m online in January ... McCain is broke, Guiliani was broke, Huckabee is close to broke ... Edwards had plenty of money to run a guerrilla campaign, and a clear target to run to after February 5th.

Plan A fizzled, and then Plan B went phlump, and he was left with Plan C ... but as long as a campaign has money to run, there's nothing to force a candidate out of the race.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 12:57:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
$3 million spread over 24 states is about as useful as a hammer made of jello....

Edwards is deep in debt until his matching funds come clear which could be a while as the FEC doesn't have a quorum and therefore cannot release funds.

by HiD on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 12:24:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
his campaign was out of money,  was not paying campaign workers, and could not get his name in the media to save his soul.

additionally, i am concerned about the health of elizabeth, whom john relies on a lot for support (and i mean this with a great deal of respect, i am certainly the same way). if the whole thing was getting tough for her, i can see why he'd decide that running a delegate kingmaker campaign on fumes across 50 states wasn't worth it.

i hope he is willing to burn either candidate if they blow off poverty as an issue. if he isn't, they will assuredly blow it off.

by wu ming on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 05:06:03 AM EST
... to the extent that they decided to spend all they had on paid media ... they were not out of money in the sense of not being able to keep going if they wished to.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 12:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well sure.

You can do a Gravel and hang about hoping to get invited to the debates with polling below 15%.  Edwards had more pride/sense than that.

by HiD on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 12:25:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A good analysis- Edwards would be trading precious, irreplaceable time with a loved one for political crumbs at a rather seedy table. Good call-- makes me respect the man even more.

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 04:04:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for leading this excellent discussion BruceMcF.  Drew - you really need to write your own diaries because your in depth knowledge puts the rest of us to shame.  I feel a bit of a fraud writing diaries on this topic with only the polls and the MSM to go on.  Its my way of trying to understand the issues I suppose.  I always was an inveterate note taker.  But we need the guys with first hand knowledge to input their wit and wisdom here.

My take?  Edwards was in it to win, and when he realised that was no longer possible, he dropped out.  It's been a long hard road.  Will he endorse Obama or Clinton?  Logic says Obama.  If he wants a career in Washington he may cut a deal with the highest bidder.  But he does have a moment NOW when he can still have a critical say on the outcome.  After Tuesday he becomes increasingly irrelevant unless the race is very very tight.  Where do his delegates and voters go if he endorses no one?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 05:42:58 AM EST
Thanks, but, really, my thoughts on the race have really been pretty crap thus far.  You, Bruce, ATinNM, TBG, and others have been just as right -- far more so, actually -- than I.

I think Edwards likely will endorse someone, and I'd guess it'll be Obama based simply on my knowledge of the people around Edwards.  Joe Trippi, Mudcat Saunders and Elizabeth are all openly contemptuous of the Clintons, and the behind-the-scenes reports have the Edwards people lobbying hard for him to endorse Obama by the end of the week.  I've no clue how Edwards himself feels, although I'd say every potential signal has pointed that way.  Still, he might not endorse.

In the event of a non-endorsement, his supporters will go different ways depending on the state.  The funny thing to me is that I see it tightening the race everywhere if that happens.  Just thinking about the Edwards demographics, I believe it'll wound Obama in the states he's strongest in, while wounding Clinton in the states she's strongest in.

But, again, the race is so fluid right now.  Obama appears to possibly have some serious momentum, if these Rasmussen polls are worth the powder to blow to hell.  He's allegedly in a statistical tie with Clinton in NYC (down 12 points or so statewide), and he hasn't yet consolidated the black and youth votes in New York.  The gap in Cal has gone from 16 points to 3 points.  Taxachusetts has gone from +27 to Clinton to only +6 to Clinton, post-SC.  I don't know if that takes Kennedy into account.

Richardson and Edwards will be important.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 06:28:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
. . . in the last poll I saw.  Of course, that was with Edwards still in.  Edwards' departure will narrow that gap, but only slightly, as I imagine Edwards' supporters will split about 60-40 between Obama and Clinton, respectively.  One also has to take into account the fact that a huge number of California voters have already voted, by absentee ballot, while Edwards was still in.  They started voting on Jan. 7, so the final California result may actually resemble old polls more than it does recent polls!
by keikekaze on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 07:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
43-40 in Cal per (I think) Gallup, but it may have been Rasmussen.  The Edwards supporters seem to be breaking Obama's way in blue and purple states, and pretty much split (maybe slight edge to O) in red states, which is a bit surprising in places like Georgia and Tennessee, where I expected Edwards people to go overwhelmingly to Clinton.

But you may be right.  I'm honestly, uncomfortable with all the polls that have popped out in the last two or three days, because they're all from just a couple firms, and I'd like to see a wider view before judging it.  (I'd like to see it anyway, just because I'm a complete junkie at this time of year every four years, but that's another issue.)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of our local TV news shows in Los Angeles Thursday night (1/31) cited "the latest" poll showing Clinton leading Obama in California by seventeen points, though I didn't catch the name of the polling organization, if they even mentioned it.

I never put much trust in any individual poll myself, and certainly not the one I just mentioned, but that three-point margin does sound like a bit of an outlier to me.   I expect Clinton's ultimate margin of victory in California will be somewhere north of three, and south of seventeen!

by keikekaze on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:31:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was the CNN/Politico poll, pre-South Carolina and all that's gone on.  Good chance that Rasmussen -- it was Rasmussen, not Gallup -- is an outlier, but we'll see.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 08:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, fuck.  Bill Clinton may have just handed this election to McCain.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 07:41:47 AM EST
Don't know about McCain, but it won't help Hillary against Obama.  Does the average swing voter care about this sort of thing?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 08:11:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
About a former president possibly lining his pockets with money gained from getting his buddy a uranium mining contract with a dictator?

I'm thinking, yeah.  I don't know if it's in time to affect the primaries, but you can bet very high that John McCain is going to have an orgasm the moment he reads it.  Mr Foreign Policy/Anti-Corruption was just given a page-one story detailing the above about Bill Clinton.

Maybe it's explainable, but this does not look good, thinking of the press's likely treatment.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 08:24:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The press coverage -or lack of it, or timing- could be an indicator, as to which Dem the Repubs prefer to run against. Certainly seems a pretty good club they could use to beat Clinton with.


Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 04:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think it was mentioned in the debate last night (but I fell asleep, so I don't know), and it didn't seem to be front and center on the news.  I think it's pretty obvious the Reps would rather run against Hillary, because they know many of us on the left hate her, and they know she'll bring wingers to the polls like no candidate before.  Again, though, I keep saying to my Republican friends, "Hang on: I know why I hate her, but why the hell do you?"  (They all despise her but love Obama, -- I'd say about half are planning to vote for him if he's the nominee -- even though they readily acknowledge that she's more in-line with their views.  It's really weird.)  None have given me a real answer, although they've tossed a few reasons around, some stupid, others fair.

Ditto McCain.  They all hate him, and I don't get it.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Voting is an emotional, not a brain function for most people.  Whether they "like" a candidate really matters.  Hilary is a women who doesn't know her place.  Will men ever be able to control their wives again if she gets elected?  Will women be able to continue to use the glass ceiling excuse for their own lack of success?  Hilary threatens the established EMOTIONAL order for conservatives.  Obama lets them feel that they are not really racist after all.  Blacks will no longer be able to use the "discrimination excuse" if he is elected.  It will be business as usual, without any need to put up with any of that "affirmative action nonsense".

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 11:23:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Most people" is a bit unkind, but I basically agree with you, Frank.
However, the Repub support for Obama that appears to Drew may, when the curtain closes on that booth, fade away pretty fast.

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 01:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I assure you with these guys and girls, it has nothing whatsoever to do with "knowing her place," although I'd certainly acknowledge that many Republicans feel that way.  (However, I submit that putting it in those terms will be more damaging with men and women than actual sexism will.)  And, as none of them really care much about affirmative action and the like (all opposed but not willing to make ending it a great cause), I don't think it's a race issue in that way, even though I'm sure race plays a role in them liking the idea.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 02:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it would be excellent for the democrats not to ahve the nomination until April if possible. the longer they stay, the more excitement it gets, the more voters mobilize.. and the more difficult to start the character assesination fromt he right. Actually, a republican candidate and two democrats bashing him from the start will eb great for the democrats.

So if Edwards withdraw for this reason... it is a bad reason..... I hope the contest Obama Clinton stays .... and stays...

Oh.. and I do nto think the level of vitrol is at all disgusting or awfull.. well I mena it always is.. not particularly.. so I think the democrats will stay together.... unless there is a brokered convention.. in which case I have no idea.

In any case.. I keep my prediction from two years ago... Clinton and Zapatero presidents... (the other one that Prodi will stay for long.....I will have to eat half of it with potatoes.... two years is one year short of what I expected )

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 01:34:15 PM EST
... into the gutter. And the Clintons can't help themselves on that front ... its not a kind of self-control that their campaign has shown any ability at all to exercise.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 02:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a matter of self-control.  The Clintons believe it's how you win elections.  As always, they play at the margins.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 02:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... they lack the self-control because they couldn't exercise it if they wished to, or they lack the self-control because they feel that self-control on that front is the wrong thing to do ...

... there seems to be little room for doubt that if the Clinton camp sees that their remaining path to the nomination running through a bruised and battered party with less than an even chance of winning in the fall, that's the path they will take.

Given that, its better that it be a two way race, where the uncommitted super-delegates will move in a rush when a perception emerges of a presumptive nominee, and that rush will ensure that the rest of the primary season is a coronation parade.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 03:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the Clinton's are extremely self controlled -  and will avoid doing anything that they think will damage their chances.  The problem is they think that the only way to win is to be utterly ruthless in pursuit of that goal.  Nice guys (Edwards) finish last, as far as that school of thought is concerned.  Tough guys win.  We are about to see how tough Obama is.  I have no doubt about Hilary.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 04:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The "argument" we have is only on the semantics of "self control".

What you describe is not what I would apply the term to. "Able to control oneself in pursuit of one's self-centered ends" vs "willing and able to control oneself in recognition of one's impact on surrounding society".

Even if you do not want to apply the term "self control" to the latter, I take it that you will agree that it does not apply to the Clintons?

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 06:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the Clinton's probably started out quite idealistic, and genuinely believe that their election to the Presidency was and would be for the good of America - especially when compared to the alternatives.  They're just not very fussy about what means they are prepared to take to achieve that end

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Jan 31st, 2008 at 06:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank--
Perhaps you're right, but this is all a terribly familiar process, with a familiar end, is it not?
The same could be said for half the tame senators and congressmen who now feed at the K-street grill.

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 04:09:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More than half.  It's almost always that way with politicians.  They're idealistic when they go in, and then they're integrated into the culture of DC politics.  Rationalization and paranoia are enough to carry them over to the Dark Side.

Not that there aren't exceptions, of course.  There are a few in Congress who I think are genuine, decent people.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:47:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anybody catch the debate last night?  I wound up falling asleep about ten minutes before it began.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:29:24 AM EST
... and willing to use deceptive arguments to exploit what he sees as a political vulnerability on that point, and Barrack was against the War in Iraq from sometime on or shortly after the IWR vote, and is willing to use effective arguments to exploit what he sees as a political vulnerability on that point.

Other than that it was sweetness and light and calm discussion of policy wonkery between two staunch, committed Edmocrats.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 02:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't actually dug into the whole mandate thing, since both sides make potentially fair points.  (That's my own fault, and it's purely the result of laziness, since I'm assuming mandates will be in the plan if it gets through Congress.)  I know Krugman's take, and I generally respect his opinion a great deal, but he's been contradicted by guys like Brad DeLong on some other issues.  And on those other issues, I, myself, know he's wrong on grounds of political economy.  Krugman's made some fair points, as well as some points that make me think he's got at least a little bit of irrational hatred going on.

But, again, no idea on the mandates issue, so feel free to clue me with your take, Bruce.

As for exploiting his opposition to the war and Clinton's inability to come out and admit she was wrong, I'm glad he did.  My biggest problem with her is that she doesn't seem to accept the premise that the war was fundamentally stupid, but rather that it was simply handled incompetently.  It's the Kerry argument, which worked so well, as we all know.  The excuses from Clinton are inconsistent and ridiculous, and until she comes to terms with the war being fundamentally wrong, rather than seeing it as simply run by the wrong people, I will never trust her.

That, and, seriously, anyone who can be duped by George W. Bush lacks the intellect necessary to be a good president.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 02:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Clinton dumbs it all down, of course, because dumbing issues down is what the Clinton's do.

Option 1. Single payer. None of these problems are a problem, the only problem is that a majority of Americans report that they are happy with their own health care coverage (though obviously for many of them, its because they have not got badly ill enough to get hit by murder by spreadsheet) ... and until that changes, it is a political club that the well-oiled insurance lobby and doctor's union can use to beat down single payer.

Option 2. Government subsidies for individual health insurance, with a free choice between public and private plans.

Which then rolls directly down a "this solution leads to this problem" hill to mandates.

First problem. With individual rating and the right to exclude based on pre-existing conditions, all the expensive cases end up in the public health care plan, and most of the cases where the government subsidy exceeds the cost of coverage end up in the private plans.

So, community rating and no exclusions for pre-existing conditions.

Except with community rating and no exclusions for pre-existing condition, its like allowing people to buy car insurance after they get in an accident. Or allowing people to start paying into social retirement insurance the year before they retire.

Without a mandate, there are three options:

(1) There is a truly effective system of preventing exclusions for pre-existing conditions and there is no adverse consequence to not holding insurance. In that case, insurance companies can simply withdraw from the market, and the public system inherits a permanent financial crisis.

(2) There is a pro-forma prohibition of exclusions for pre-existing conditions, but in order to keep insurance companies in the market, they are allowed to get away with de facto "discouragements" of enrolment by people with pre-existing conditions. This keeps private companies in the market at the cost of sending all the expensive cases to the public plan.

(3) There is a penalty for signing up after medical care becomes necessary that is sufficiently effective to get a large proportion of the community in the system, so that community rating and no exclusions is financially workable for private firms and they compete against the public plan in that context. And in that case, the penalty must be more draconion than a mandate, because a down the track threat always must be more severe in action than an up front system of institutionalized nagging to sign up for a plan.

Number (3) is, it should be noted, rank hypocrisy.

It is not clear that Obama, in fact, worked it through, rather than, say, noting that the idea of shared responsibility was a big turn-off in the college age demo, and therefore decided to come out against mandates as a pure political expediency.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 05:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I think the docs came out in support of universal health care in any form, but I could be wrong.  I know they opposed it back in '93.  Maybe they're in favor of the kinds of plans the three Dems proposed, but not a government-run system.

Clearly Option 1, Single-Payer, is the superior option, but, as you pointed out, it's not viable, politically, without enormous majorities.  And, even then, it'd be unlikely.  Hell, the Dems could take every seat in Congress, and they'd probably still puss out.

Okay, I think I grok the arguments you made.  So answer Obama's charge for me: What if they can't afford the health insurance even with all of the subsidies, rebates and the like?  This is not to say that Clinton's wrong to assert that a lack of mandates creates a free-rider problem (it undoubtedly does), but my understanding is that the pro-mandate view would also hit some people for whom affording the insurance will still be difficult and perhaps impossible.

Everyone continuously points to the car insurance industry.  As you know, with car insurance, we buy additional coverage to support us in case we're hit by someone with no insurance.  Should there not be something analogous to this shared at the national level?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... and Obama's plan spends half as much Federal money as Edwards plan proposed to do.

So if they cannot afford it under the Edwards plan, as original proposed or adopted by Hillary, then they sure as hell could not afford it under Obama, and then his argument that he is making it affordable is a lie.

And that is a lock, because the cost-shifting for the uncovered, which will still occur without a mandate, interferes with some of the cost saving, so any money Obama can save, Edwards/Hillary can save it plus more.

So either he can make it affordable, in which case Hillary can, or he can't make it affordable, and the claim that he's removing that hurdle is a lie.

Edwards plan was very explicit when first proposed to first adopt the cost reforms, the pay or play system, the Health Care Markets, and the sliding scale tax credits, and then once it was assured that the plan could be afforded, to impose the mandate. I don't recall whether Hillary copied that part as well as she might have done.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:15:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a very difficult time living without a functioning body.

The greater viability (uhhh ... literally) of "opt out of driving" means that while we can and do use the auto insurance market to better understand the moral hazards of the health insurance market, they are serving fundamentally different levels of needs.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, quick note: The college kids are more liberal than any other group in the Democratic Party.  I think if you check out the Pew Research Center studies on their attitudes, you'll find that they're even more inclined towards shared responsibility on issues like health care and climate change than their parents and grandparents.

There are many reasons for why the college demo went to Obama.  (For one thing, he sought them out unlike the others.  Clinton has actually attacked them.)  Some of the reasons are good ones, some are a joke, but an aversion to shared responsibility is not one of either sort.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:11:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... if the Obama campaign was not already deeply involved on college campuses on a grass roots level, they would never have realized that the shared responsibility of mandates could easily be turned into a horrible imposition of outside authority.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 07:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the truth of the matter is that younger people are less likely to have the health care issue as their top one, more likely to pay attention to the war, climate change, etc.  Obama also markets himself, rightly or wrongly, as a more pragmatic politician, while Clinton has gone more for the ideological advantage in the campaign.  That likely has a lot to do with it.

At the same time, yes, I'm sure young people are hyped about the possibility of electing a black guy who gives great speeches.

But don't slip into stereotyping the Millennials.  They're the most liberal generation -- and the only one, by the way, that voted for Kerry -- to come along since the Boomers were young (before the Boomers sold out to the ideas that tax cuts and wars could pay for themselves), perhaps even more so.  Regardless of which candidate you support, a lot of people have taken shots at the youth vote that were ugly and pretty clearly false, and it's really quite sad to me, as someone who worked a great deal trying to get people from my generation involved in the process.  They're the ones who'll deliver the progressive majority one day, and this "Hey, kids, get off my lawn" nonsense needs to stop.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 at 09:38:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... I was referring to actual diaries written by actual college students about how mandates are a fascist conspiracy.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 at 02:52:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, okay.  Well, I wouldn't hold that against young folks.  Believe me when I say that it's simply something you find among them, regardless of the candidate they support, and regardless of their ideological inclinations.  Some young voters are simply always going to call the other players "fascists".  (Kerry was one in the eyes of some Deaniacs in 2004, I assure you.)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Feb 3rd, 2008 at 10:09:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... the Obama campaign was very good at spreading noise in the netroots to avoid an attack from the left. Getting some college students whipped up on that front is like exploiting a vulnerability in Internet Explorer to spread a worm.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 3rd, 2008 at 11:20:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know that Clinton is bad. I don't know whether Obama is better or worse.

Until I get a clear signal that either Clinton has substantially improved in some important respect, or that Obama is, in fact, somewhere in the ball park of the most hopeful projections of many of his online supporters, I'm not handing my primary vote over.


Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Feb 1st, 2008 at 05:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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