European Tribune

Wednesday Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 09:44:30 AM EST

[Jerome's WEEEEEE™ Technology]


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For some odd reason, now only some diaries has the multiple-comments-on-rec-list syndrom.

Rec list:

The Blow-out continues...
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 14
68 comments (44 new)

How will the EU manage the pending collapse of the US Empire?
by BruceMcF - Oct 12
47 comments

Same on recent:

The Blow-out continues...
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 14
34 comments (10 new)

How will the EU manage the pending collapse of the US Empire?
by BruceMcF - Oct 12
47 comments

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:04:48 AM EST
Up early (for me) to hospital for a scan to check results of back operation - question on form to fill in first: "Do you understand French perefectly?" - not quite - does anyone ? :-) Fortunately I don't suffer from claustrophobia (but I think speleologists are crazy) - it takes a lot longer than the "dizaine" minutes the nurse told me.

Feel OK so walk to Prom des Anglais and have breakfast on the beach - first time in two months. Didn't bring camera (no excuse, it's small) - but it was like this and almost deserted:

couple-boats-s-60548

Able to sit with little discomfort and feel fit enough to walk back, popping into FNAC and buying latest versions of Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements.

Get back home with some energy left ! Back to 65% YIPEEEE !! :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:14:51 AM EST
good to hear your up and about.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:19:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
really! nice to be in Nice this time of year i bet.

how's the jaw ceebs? it didn't seem to hold you back from blogging too much, i'm glad to remark!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Discovering that if I laid on my back with the laptop on my knees I could get the fluid to drain out of my sinuses was a good thing to find out.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 06:22:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

err "perfectly" :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Parfaitement.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yay!!! Good news!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:45:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Glad you are better.  Few things are so incapacitating as severe back problems.  The wife and I were both struck down with some mercifully transitory back inflammation a few years ago.  I had to roll out of bed onto my hands and knees in order to get up!

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:59:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope my problem is "transitory" too - my problem getting out of bed has been remembering to do it slowly - so that I don't feel dizzy :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:11:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Good to see you up and about. Must be a real reliev to you.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:04:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is - and this evening, after my session of physio, I had a glass of wine in a cafe terrace and then another standing ! (legs have been affected) in another bar - ah these taken-for-granted simple things :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Way to go, Ted!

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:46:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you but it's 7:30 A.M. CA time, the DOW is down 300 pts, oil prices are down, they're projecting AN OIL SURPLUS in coming months, and the SQUAWKBOX folks are a bit hysterical.

So much for the crisis being over?  What's next?

When the music's over, turn out the light. Jim Morrison, the doors

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:33:44 AM EST
Retail sales fingered in MSM explanations of volatility in securities trading, not that securities trading has anything, really, to do with forecasting consumer spending. A "part-random" sample of related news illustrates how propaganda may or may not induce macroeconomic policy prescriptions for state-sanctioned graft.

Retail sales fall 1.2% in September | MarketWatch | 15 Oct 2008

Sales were weak in September in almost all kinds of stores. Excluding the 3.8% drop in auto sales, retail sales fell 0.6%.  Sales were weak in September in almost all kinds of stores. Excluding the 3.8% drop in auto sales, retail sales fell 0.6%.
In a separate report, the Labor Department said producer prices fell 0.4% while core prices rose 0.4%. See full story.
[...]
 Demand for consumer durables was weak in September. Sales at furniture stores dropped 2.3%, while sales at electronics and appliance stores fell 1.5%. Sales at hardware stores fell 0.6%.
Soft goods didn't fare any better. Sales at general merchandise stores fell 0.4%, including a 1.5% drop at department stores. Sales at clothing stores fell 2.3%.
Sales of leisure-time goods, such as books and sporting goods, fell 1.1%.
Sales at food stores and restaurants fell 0.5%.
Sales rose 0.1% at gasoline stations. Sales increased 0.4% at health and personal care stores.
Sales at nonstore retailers, such as catalog and online stores, fell 0.8%.

Cheaper gas tugs on retail sales | CNNMoney | 13 Oct 2008

The Census Bureau reported that retail sales fell 0.4 percent in September, following a revised 0.1 percent rise in August. Economists surveyed by Briefing.com had forecast a 0.2 percent rise in sales.

But gasoline station sales fell 9.3 percent in the month compared to August, as gasoline prices fell sharply. Excluding what was spent at gasoline stations, retail sales rose 0.6 percent in the month.

Just about every class of retailer measured by the government report, except for food and beverage stores and auto dealers, saw improved sales in September. Spending at clothing and clothing accessory stores led the way with a 3.0 percent gain, while general merchandise stores, such as department stores, posted a 1.1 percent rise over August.



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee (pbing@estudioinc.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to beat a dead horse but it's about 11 A.M. CA time, DOW down about 500 pts.

Is this meaningless  bullshit?  Do I watch it like a rube, like I would stare at the bearded lady in a side-show?

When the music's over, turn out the light. Jim Morrison, the doors

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:54:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I wouldn't call you a rube... but there is serious volatility out there. Hourly checking is probably more noise than signal.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 02:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My final check in on this and I will shut up.

DOW down 733 for the day, back to the lows before that previous surge of optimism.

So?

When the music's over, turn out the light. Jim Morrison, the doors

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She's been moved from the specialist ward to a general ward, indicating a significant improvment in her condition and her medication dose was halved as a consequence.

In fact, she had a set of bloods taken for test while I was there and if they continue the improvement she'll probably be moved from the Regional centre to her local hospital for convalescence. This will be much more convenient for her and her family (but a step too far for me). She reckons she'll be back on the internet there as well so hopefully we'll hear see her herein the next few days

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:46:58 AM EST
More good news!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 10:49:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Any Idea when this is going to happen? I've got to be in the area of her home hospital next Tuesday for a funeral, so might pop in.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If she's given the okay, she'll be back to convalesce near home on the weekend.

Have you got her email or mobile ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i've got her email, i'll get in touch.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good luck to her, I hope she recovers quickly.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Helen! Happy to hear that Sassafras is moving back towards health.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
She's been moved from the specialist ward to a general ward, indicating a significant improvment in her condition and her medication dose was halved as a consequence.

i thought you were talking about the dow jones for a minute there.

welcome back to the world of health, sassafrass!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. The INDU's racing down below 9000 (@ 10:43 Eastern). My gut tells me that the market, though it may temporarily go lower, is just about where it should be. (nope, I have no charts or data to support that other than my gut feeling that traditional growth in equities would put us just about here at this level)

I always thought that the market we witnessed these many years was in fact an equities bubble. I got everything out of the market (an IRA, a 401K, and what equities I purchased myself) just after the DJIA hit 10,000 for the first time). Nobody's calling this a correction yet, but that's what I've always thought it is.

The banking crisis is a separate matter. It's as if bankers themselves have stopped believing in their own business model.

Also a separate, though it's all related, matter is the underlying softness of the US economy and the ongoing conservative assault on the middle class.

In other words, a lot of chickens are coming home to roost.

"The cure for bullshit is fieldwork"
--Robert Bates, Department of Government; Harvard University

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:08:21 AM EST
long overdue.  I wonder how the ultra-wealthy are going to maneuver this situation so that they become richer/more powerful and the rest of us are more screwed?  Anybody out there think like one of the ultra-wealthy folks?

When the music's over, turn out the light. Jim Morrison, the doors
by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:13:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suspect the ultra wealthy sold between July 2007 and October 2007. The wealth is likely in gold and cash in various currencies other than US dollars. I'm sure there are some deals to be had in the markets now and some may be buying. Others may be waiting it out longer.
by Magnifico on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:32:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought maybe they're investing in Blackwater so that they have their own armed forces.  What good is wealth if you can't defend it.

When the music's over, turn out the light. Jim Morrison, the doors
by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:38:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
papicek:
It's as if bankers themselves have stopped believing in their own business model.

enter chris cook stage left..oops, he's off enlightening the iranians!

you're going to be an even busier man, chris.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:57:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After the discovery of a plan to massacre Saviano and his escort before Christmas by the Casalesi Camorra, Saviano wishes to leave Italy. Today Giuseppe D'Avanzo published a two page interview in la Repubblica in which Saviano vents his discomfort and a desire for a normal existence.

A brief summary of the interview by Stephen Brown for Reuters is now online. It, alas, lacks the expressive power of Roberto's language.

Solidarity has been expressed throughout the day by everyone ranging from the president of the republic to his numerous readers. The euro-parliamentarian Claudio Fava, son of the writer Giuseppe Fava who was murdered by the mafia, put it aptly:

"Che triste Paese sta diventando l'Italia: Saviano per vivere la propria vita deve andare all'estero, un sottosegretario - l'on. Cosentino, chiamato in causa da pentiti della camorra - rimane imperterrito nel governo".

"What a sad country has Italy become: In order to live a decent life Saviano must go abroad [while] undersecretary [of Economy]- Honourable Cosentino, accused by camorra supergrasses- remains blithely in the government."

Cosentino's decade long relations with the Casalese families has been the object of two scoops published by l'Espresso this past month reporting grave accusations that have been completely ignored by the press and the media as well as the interested parties.

After all, Mr. Cosentino has been doing a good job cleaning up the Naples garbage.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:38:30 AM EST
Naples gangsters order author of 'Gomorrah' dead by Christmas - Europe, World - The Independent
The Casalesi clan could be planning a 'spectacular assassination with explosives'

The author of Gomorrah, the book about the Naples gang wars that was turned into a prize-winning film, could be dead by Christmas along with his bodyguards, according to a well-placed supergrass.

Roberto Saviano, the 29-year-old journalist whose novel-like chronicle of the brutal rule of the Camorra has sold more than a million copies, has been under heavy police protection for two years.

Since then, he has led the life of Salman Rushdie during the Fatwa years but with more guards, armed with more fire power, to protect him from a more tangible threat. Despite the carabinieri officers- with whom he lives, eats, boxes and travels - the Camorra appear more determined than ever to eliminate the man who has given them the international notoriety that was previously the preserve of the Sicilian Mafia.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:16:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... the economy will recover. Or at least, that's what Bush says
The president said the plan was necessary to deal with extraordinary hardship in the U.S. economy.

"They are necessary and I'm confident in the long run, that this economy will come back," he said.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:55:28 AM EST
I wondered why the stock markets were busy collapsing again.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:00:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Bush talking months, years, decades, or centuries?
by Magnifico on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Bush talking months, years, decades, or centuries?

Whatever it is, whatever he meant, whatever he said, it is a lie. If a compound sentence, multiple lies.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bush was holding that bullhorn a day or so after the 9-11 attack; he looked so confident; people looked to him in hope.

Now he's just a punchline.  There's a lesson there for Obama.  Hope he's smart enough to see it, if not for himself, for his kids.

When the music's over, turn out the light. Jim Morrison, the doors

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the long run we're all dead.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make that comment...

Seriously though, does anybody other than Bush make comments like that? Or do even people who disagree completely with Keynes know better that to phrase it in precisely that way?

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Banking Crisis Has Made Even the Swiss Uneasy
By Craig Whitlock, Washington Post

Of all the places in the world, this was supposed to be the safest to stash your wealth during times of calamity, war and financial panic.

But here in the heart of Zurich's financial district, anxious Swiss investors have been lining up to watch the stock tickers in front of the headquarters of UBS, a financial behemoth that has written off a stunning $43 billion in loser investments since 2007, more than any other bank in Europe.

"The idea that this could happen in Switzerland is unbelievable," said Klaus Stoeckli, 55, a food-products salesman who has withdrawn about $90,000 in investments from UBS, worried that its storied vaults might not be able to protect his money from the global credit crisis.

UBS executives say the bank is not in danger of failure. It has cut 7,000 jobs worldwide and is still trying to unload billions of dollars' worth of risky securities. But the bank has moved aggressively since December to reinforce its balance sheet with $25 billion in fresh private capital. It announced this month that it expects to report a small profit for the third quarter.

UBS had or still has Phil Gramm as a VP, si my guess is that they're going down. From an April 2008 story in WaPo, Economic Slump Underlines Concerns About McCain Advisers.

One of them helped deregulate the financial services industries in the 1990s, and now sits in the corporate suites of Swiss banking giant UBS, which yesterday announced $19 billion in investment losses tied to the crumbling U.S. real estate market...

Former senator Phil Gramm, with his aw-shucks Texas drawl, ... helped deregulate the financial services industries in the 1990s, and now sits in the corporate suites of Swiss banking giant UBS, which yesterday announced $19 billion in investment losses tied to the crumbling U.S. real estate market...

Gramm, UBS's vice chairman, said yesterday he was "totally unaware" of his bank's massive holdings of securities tied to subprime mortgages, but, he added, "I'm confident we'll recover."

Gramm: Fail.

by Magnifico on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 11:59:29 AM EST
Oh fucking shit!

Question:  How long has Switzerland been doing ... Switzerland?  More than a few years, right?

When the music's over, turn out the light. Jim Morrison, the doors

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:04:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny thing is, here in Switzerland most UBS people don't even know who Gramm is. I called them to ask if he was still VP and that I would cancel my bank account with them if he still was - but they did not know what I was talking about. Though thanks for the information next week I am switching bank.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It looks like he's still in their employ, Global UBS Global Business Group Vice Chairmen.

 

by Magnifico on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, dollar LIBOR panelists: Credit Suisse, UBS AG / BoA, JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup / Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, Norinchukin Bank, Rabobank / Royal Bank of Canada / HBOS PLC, HSBC, Barclays, Lloyds, Royal Bank of Scotland / Westdeutsche Landesbank, Deutsche Bank

Gramm is on the payroll to supply influence among panelists and arbitrage opportunities. LIBOR is a closed interbanck metric. The 16 banks negotiate among their managers, then publicly report.

Just look, LOOK, at which banks negotiated unlimited, risk-free funds from US Treasury to continue business.


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee (pbing@estudioinc.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean continue business if they're not lending?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Someone tried to offer me a loan with a 20% APR today.

'Current market conditions.'

Right.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:12:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean --I suspect-- pay redemptions, retire CDS contracts amongst themselves and their freakin hedge subsidiaries and SPEs. Really, "part-nationalized" money: it's such a diabolical ideer, it must be true.

As for honoring commercial LOCs? Originating new loans? pshhaw.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee (pbing@estudioinc.com) on Thu Oct 16th, 2008 at 06:38:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anyone have any idea as to why the dollar got so strong as the stock markets tanked (and then fell on the days the markets recovered)? For the past few weeks it seems that the USD/EUR has been moving in step with the markets.
by dahuk (dahuk . hiddenborder @ com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:04:53 PM EST
I'm no currency guru but I suspect it was a mismatch in the bailout timings.

The dollar got stronger cos the US bailout happened first, so the euro hesitated a bit, then when the eurpopeans got their act together their currency responded to a more credible plan, causing the dollar to go backwards.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Banks needed liquidity, so they needed dollars, so they bought them...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:24:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to recall reading somewhere that this is a side effect of all the deleveraging. The banks are calling in their loans to each other, and internationally most of these are denominated in dollars. Once that cycle runs out, I imagine the € will start climbing again.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:11:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are preparing for a category 2 hurricane which is supposed to miss us (or not).  Anyway, it is too close to call.  I assume I will be without a phone and therefore internet, so behave yourselves while I'm away.  Hopefully the electricity will not collapse before the Obama - McCain debate finishes.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:21:17 PM EST
Best of luck. I guess you don't need extra wild, but the debate looks like it could be interesting. McCain has to do more than draw, he has to deliver several telling blows or everybody can go home and concentrate on the Senate races.

But what has McCain got ? If Ayres is all he's got he's got nothing. And to say he's got a glass jaw is to understate the case.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 12:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:17:13 PM EST
Whoa, could have warned us about the fact that I might injure myself through giggling

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ww really are conditioned to believe the apocalypse begins at midnight if our guy isn't in the white house.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:27:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, the weirdness abounds.  

106-year-old voter chooses Obama

Sister Cecilia Gaudette, who last voted for President Eisenhower in 1952, has registered to vote and says she will vote for Democrat Barack Obama.

Although hard of hearing, she keeps herself informed by reading newspapers and watching TV at the convent.

"I'm encouraged by Senator Obama," she says.

"I've never met him, but he seems to be a good man with a good private life. That's the first thing. Then he must be able to govern," she adds.

Sitting in her modest office in the convent where she has lived for the past 50 years, the diminutive nun appears uninterested in the row inside the American Catholic church over Senator Obama's support for pro-choice policies on abortion.

Asked about her hopes for the US under an Obama presidency, she says: "Peace abroad. I don't worry about the Iraq war because I can't do anything about it. Lord knows how it will end."

"It is very complicated," she said. "Those Eastern people are not like we are."

Alrighty then!

BTW, I very much agree with the dude who can't stand Obama but will vote for him anyway because he wants the government to take over the banks and WallMart.  Pretty much sums up my position. :D

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-36146.html

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 02:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, spasibo!  Perhaps this would have been better placed on the thread about Marxism and ponies, though.  Anyway, such an animal lover.  I assume everyone has seen the following by now, but what the heck, here goes:

Russia's Putin gets tiger cub for his birthday

MOSCOW (AP) -- There's no doubt what Vladimir Putin's favorite birthday present is this year -- a rare Ussuri tiger cub.

State television showed the Russian prime minister tenderly petting the 2-month-old female cub Friday at his residence outside Moscow. The cub, weighing about 20 pounds, was curled up in a wicker basket with a tiger-print cushion.

Putin said a good home will be found for the tiger, presumably in a zoo or wildlife preserve. He hasn't decided what to call her, but is leaning toward Mashenka or Milashka.

Putin refused to say who gave him the cub for his 56th birthday, which was Tuesday.

He called Russian journalists to his country home late Thursday without telling them why. Past midnight, after asking them "not to make noise, make a clatter or squeal," Putin ushered the curious journalists into the room where the tiger cub was waiting.

As president and now prime minister, Putin is known for his tough talk and macho image. But children and animals seem to bring out a softer side.

His dog, a Labrador retriever named Koni, is often with him, even during meetings with world leaders. He told journalists that Koni has not met the tiger cub.

In August, Putin had occasion to pet a full-grown female Ussuri tiger after shooting her with a tranquilizer gun. He was visiting a wildlife preserve in Russia's Far East and shot the 5-year-old tiger as part of a program to track the rare cats, also known as the Siberian, Amur or Manchurian tiger.

Once the tiger was asleep, Putin placed a collar with a GPS tracking system around her neck. Television footage showed him patting her cheek.



"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL, pretty tasteless to have the tiger cub in a tiger-striped basket.


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh a serious note, I want to tell you that I've had a chance to go back and read your guest review of LeVine's book on FDL.  When you showed me what the book was, I was pretty less than impressed (not helped by the fact that Amazon.com tells me that people who bought it also bought Lucas' New Cold War...)  But you managed to do the review really well!  Seriously.  You can review books!  (I cannot; I envy your little talent.)  And you were very fair and diplomatic about it all.  I totally scoffed at you when you mentioned the gig - I think I owe you an apology.  Nice work.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:44:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks!

Being at the Salon was a mess, as I was attending a formal dinner with my wife for her association, and had to leave before the main course. And I only finished reading the book in the plane the day before, and my first impression was negative (thankfully, I got word from a common friend that DeVine's a good guy).

But the conversation itself in the Salon went well, and was pretty constructive.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what she said...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 12:25:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd be totally down with seizing the banks and Wal-Mart and selling them off.  Sell the banks to the Swiss and the Brits for trillions.  Sell equal shares of Wal-Mart to the French and the Russians (Bubbas heads explode nationwide).

Use the money to pay off the national debt.

I'm Drew J Jones, and I approved this message.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:00:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Trillions? You think we have trillions?

We could give you Essex, I suppose.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:14:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wiltshire first methinks

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know the banks are in deep, but Essex?  Really?  We're not going to pay you to take the banks of our hands.

Yet....

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
damn we were rather hoping to get you to take essex off our hands ;-)

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 06:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow. Eight years of crazy indeed.

I'm trying to think up an European parallel to those two loons -- but can't...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 02:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I keep telling ya: Magic Negro.  Nobody listens....

;)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:57:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really wish you did not feel the need to repeat that.  I fail to see how it is informative or funny.


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really wish you did not feel the need to repeat that.  I fail to see how it is informative or funny.

I disagree, and I think you're taking it far too seriously.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with poemless!
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, fair enough.  I'll not say it.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Say it, don't say it, whatever.  My point is not to shut you up.  

Listen: Neither "magic" nor "negro" explain Obama's weird cult of popularity.  They are both made-up ideas, simplistic concepts to explain complicated realities.  I don't mind crass, offensive stuff if it makes you sit up and think (like Bill Hicks or Matt Taibbi.)  But this does just the opposite; it discourages reflection.  Much easier to accept that we're all under some magical charm instead of accepting that maybe we just sleep better with someone who assures us we are good people on a valid mission (America! Democracy! City on a Hill!) even though we currently appear to be destroying everything in our path, including ourselves.  We need to be told we're better than this.  Barack tells us we're better than this.  Much easier to feel good about voting for a black man (see, we're not racist anymore!) than make any personal sacrifices for the underclass who have suffered most because of their perceived race (many of whom we're currently blaming for having the audacity to try to own a home when their employers refuse to pay them enough to afford one thereby causing a complete global financial meltdown).  If Obama can be elected, we don't need to feel so much guilt about those people living in the ghettos.  Nothing magic about it.  He meets our national identity needs and looks fabulous doing it.  

Also, you know that if some old white man got up at a McCain rally and referred to Obama as "the magic negro" we would all be freaking out.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First:

Also, you know that if some old white man got up at a McCain rally and referred to Obama as "the magic negro" we would all be freaking out.

The term was popularized by Rush Limbaugh, and I've used it consistently as a means to mocking him and those who think like him.

And I don't disagree with what you wrote.  I've noted elements of it in the past.  But -- and you've done this many times -- you're taking something I've said and warping it into something it most certainly is not.  It's not meant to be informative.  Funny?  Yes.  You don't think it's funny.  Fair enough.  Even if you find it offensive, you could simply say so, and, as I responded to Fran, I would've responded in the same way to you.

You think it's destructive.  Fair enough.  Say so in the original response instead of blowing what I thought was pretty clearly meant as a harmless joke (as in every. other. case.) so out of proportion.  Not everything has to have some great meaning, poemless.  At least not as I see things.  You apparently disagree, and that's your problem, not mine.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 06:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was only trying to be constructive and decent.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 06:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And you're both.  Sorry, I'm just in a bad mood.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 06:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, I apologize if my explanation upset you because that was not my intention.  I was simply explaining why I didn't think the term was useful.  Nothing personal, just an observation of the way we use words and ideas.  And I think that is a completely legitimate, objective, impersonal comment to make here or anywhere.  I write some really offensive stuff.  I am not offended by "Magic Negro."  I just think it's problematic.  Anyone is welcome to critique the things I say.  But it would be best if we could all do that without getting personal.  I don't "have a problem."  I am critiquing language.  We can do that here.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 06:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes....

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 07:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to agree with Drew here. He's aware of all the points you're making. He is mocking conservatives and racist whites in general (see Geraldine Ferraro's stunning remarks, quite on par with Limbaugh's stunning racism) by using their own rhetoric to mock them the same way Colbert does. We do it all the time on other topics because it's easier to be cynical than it is to drive our own narratives. For some reason that's off limits when it comes to sensitive topics.

It came up here sometime early in the summer. I posted the youtube video of the Al Sharpton imitator singing "Barack the magic negro..." on Limbaugh's show.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 06:37:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And whenever you say this, running through by head is:
Barack, the magic negro lived by the sea...
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian - Iron Maiden flag rocks town hall

Eddie the Head, the demoniacal mascot of the British heavy metal group Iron Maiden, has made his way into the debating chamber of a Spanish town hall.

Eddie's cadaverous face appears regularly at council meetings in the town of Villava, in Navarre, as part of a war of political symbols between local parties.

Basque separatist councillors insist on hanging the Basque flag on their desks during debates, upsetting other politicians at the town hall. Most dislike the idea of the Navarre region being treated as part of the Basque country.

The Socialists have responded by hanging an Iron Maiden flag on their desks. The Socialist leader, José Luis Uriz, said: "The Iron Maiden flag means a lot to me. If I have to put up with their flag, they'll have to put up with Eddie's face."

The conservative Navarrese People's Union party has joined the protest. Its councillors now hang the flag of the local La Liga football club, Osasuna, from their desks.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:27:31 PM EST
ROTFLMAO...

This gives me ideas...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Choir mistress pays hospital parking fine in 3,500 pennies - Telegraph
A church choir mistress was so infuriated by a fine she received for parking at a hospital that she put 3,500 pennies in a sweet jar and took it to the council offices in a wheelbarrow to pay it.

Susan Catcheside, 74, from Longney, Gloucester, said "Hitler-ite" parking wardens had shown a "lack of humanity" by giving her a £70 fine while she visited a friend awaiting a heart operation.

The retired company secretary, who runs Longney and Elmore Church Choir, left her car in a permit holders' parking bay she claimed was poorly marked outside Gloucester Royal Hospital.

She fired off an appeal letter to the council upon discovering the fine on her windscreen, but was told she would have to pay.

Although Mrs Catcheside, whose son is a priest, paid the fine within two weeks - meaning it was reduced to £35 - she said she decided to make city council bureaucrats "work for it" by doing so in the most awkward way she was allowed.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:40:47 PM EST
Nowadays, there is a website called Appeal Now that demonstrates how the parking offenses in the UK are a complete legal nightmare. Most fines are actually not legally enforceable because the signage contravenes the legislation.

Always worth checking that site.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 01:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Loefing on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 02:29:55 PM EST
Lemonade? McCain gets me pancakes. I'm voting republican.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 02:36:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are the world.


by melvin on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 02:40:19 PM EST
Interesting to see that the NE corner is pretty empty apart from the province labelled Poland hard up aganst the Russian border.

There's a lot of border trade going on there, resources heading south, finished good heading north, and it's surprisingly boom-ey. I've always been surprised they haven't got a major rail crossing to the trans-siberian there

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 02:53:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I worked with a woman from out there in Madagascar. Very odd, she wore several watches, one set to time in her little village although she hadn't been back in years, and another set to London. She once managed to dump a beaker of enzyme she was using to break down cell walls down the back of my neck. I moved out of that lab, she was too dangerous to be around.
by melvin on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:06:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does the back of your neck look like?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:53:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's okay. There was an emergency shower about 3 feet away and I stripped and was under it in about two seconds. She wasn't even sure what was in the beaker at first.

She actually managed to start a fire in the lab once too, I was never sure how. Never saw anyone so klutzy, PhD or not.

by melvin on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 03:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poland: 38 million
Afghanistan: 32 million
Argentina: 40 million

I don't think you can say "empty apart from the province labelled Poland hard up aganst the Russian border". What's empty is Inner Mongolia ("North Korea"). The rest of the Northeast, former Manchuria, contains a number of large cities: Harbin in "Poland", Changchun in "Afghanistan", Shenyang and Dalian in "Argentina".

There are now two rail border crossings to the Transsib from Manchuria, but AFAIK the bulk of the trade with Russia still goes through Mongolia, that in the Northeast is more local.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are now two rail border crossings to the Transsib from Manchuria

Upon checking, I'm less sure -- maybe it's still just one. I thought the first of the two cross-border rail projects there (Dongning-Ussuriysk, Hulin-Lesozavodsk) was due by now, but I couldn'tr find any evidence of even construction start on-line.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a number of large cities: Harbin in "Poland", Changchun in "Afghanistan", Shenyang and Dalian in "Argentina".

Forgot to add: big enough that they are to be connected with full high-speed lines, and Shenyang to Beijing (which is partly already in service).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CRASH ON THE M-F'ING STOCK MARKET!

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE, BITCHES!@

[Drew's WHEEEEE™ Technology]

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:01:59 PM EST
I note that there hasn't been a day this month with less than 400 points between top and bottom of the day, and we've been in the 800-1000 range for the past 5 days of trading.

It must be fun to be betting agaisnt volatility right now...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew, would you mind raising the tone of the vocabulary, please???

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, will do.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 04:50:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Meta: these are grown-up boys. Let them have their fun...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:00:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven, I am sure those grown-up boys can have fun without having to use a sexist language.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to argue that. It is not sexist language imo, though it may appear to be - out of context. The words 'investment banker' are currently invested with negative connotations. J is an investment banker, but we know, in this case, there are not the negatives that come with the tag.

Words are place markers - they are not the things themselves. Sometimes they can become the things themselves, but generally their meaning is confined within a culture. Thus Chris Rock can talk about niggers, but I cannot. We all have different cultural meanings and different cultural authority. And in a multicultural environment such as ET, there are going to be misunderstandings.

It is right to point out objections to cultural interpretations. It is right to say that cultural interpretations can colour and geneticize a society. But it is also a right to misuse cultural interpretations intellectually. To expose the substance of meaning in the cause of greater meaning.

Today's was not a good example of this 'greater meaning', but I will defend my intuitive understanding of intentions against a strict interpretation of lexiconic idioms any day.

All languages are in flux. They die if they are not. Let us accept that there are always multiple meanings and intentions - even if the historical record tends to narrowness.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thus Chris Rock can talk about niggers, but I cannot.

That's because he's a Northern Rock.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 05:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He he. But I am serious in a svennish way.

You spend your days on risk analysis- as you say - and I do the same. The risk analysis of words.

A  client in outdoor clothing contacted me today about a semiotic matter. They wanted to use the word 'Joy' as an attribute of what they bring to the consumer. I pointed out that a joy boy is a homosexual prostitute and joy can be interpreted as powdered drugs such as cocaine and heroin in gay slang. And there is a gay/lesbian radio station in Australia called 'JOY'.

Most of my client's target audience would know nothing of this slang. For them 'joy' would mean intense, innocent happiness. Happy innocence. But from  a risk analysis POV, what if a gay culture really got into the 'joy' aspect and promoted it as an 'inside' thing ? Fitness, good-looking - what is there not to like?

As I told them, for their 90% hetero audience it could be a negative. It is not bound to happen, but if it did, it would be very destructive. That is risk analysis - of a different kind.

I deal in perceptions - facts of a different kind. What is human nature?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Oct 15th, 2008 at 06:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many words don't carry a slew of other connotations (like "joy")?

And isn't every major word (or lexical field) mined for its power (in communications, advertising, politics) to the point it becomes dispersed, its currency debased?

Is there no more primary (unequivocal, innocent, naive) use of language (other than in minority, regional, often dying, languages, and in the speech of children?)

<serious questions>

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 16th, 2008 at 02:02:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not sure it becomes debased - just that its meaning is changed. And this is a normal process in the evolution of language. Words are place-markers for ideas. It is the ideas and concepts, and how they represent social interaction, that are important.

The placemakers themselves can evolve or disappear - like the term Whig. The ideas themselves (eg Whigs and constitutional monarchism), need quite a bit of detail to understand and an awareness of the historical implications of them and the use of them in different cultural contexts.

Like the word 'architecture' it is easier to define that which it is not, than what it actually represents. But we use the word all the time - or at least I do.

Another tendency in the evolution of words and phrases is elision: The Tottenham Hotspur Football Club becomes Spurs. This elision, if it is used with sufficient frequency, is understood by all who are interested in the subject. Acronyms like jpeg become nouns, verbs, whatever you like - are also understood by all who are interested.

But the elision and evolution of words will also mean that there are people who do not understand them or misunderstand the particular cultural reference.  I am not sure what you can do about that except to exercise considerable sensitivity to context which is sometimes difficult when you are passionate ;-)

My argument is not about a specific instance of a particular word, but about a principle concerning word definitions in general. As place-markers many words are continually evolving, eliding and shifting in meaning. Some recognition of that is incumbent upon both writer and reader imo.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 17th, 2008 at 01:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But there are also words and phrases that continue to reinforce negative perceptions and stereotypes.  Referring to something rubbish as being 'gay' is an example. Gay is very widely known to mean homosexual and so using that word t