The Memory of Death (woo-woo Two)

by Helen
Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 03:07:34 PM EST

This diary was originally a reply to InWales' diary (Woo-woo vs Science). I was asked to re-post as the original comment thread was getting long and this is a slight departure from the original which could stimulate another discussion.

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 All things considered, the mind is an odd place to live. After all, whatever scientific investigation there has been on the brain, nobody seems to have a handle yet on consciousness and the mind at all. You can observe it by glancing sideways at the mirror by the light of the moon, but never under the microscope.
Memory seems to be a bridge.

It's incredible to understand how memory works : Strangely so much like a modern computer with transitional memories (RAM) that we hold onto for the day that are downloaded by REM sleep into permanent storage (HDD), dreams being the editing/contextualisation process. Then there is the more subtle background process whreby memories that are unused get put into offline storage, accesible only by triggers (metatags) not under conscious control (JakeS dissociated memories of ptsd).


I describe it thus not to mechanise and cheapen it, but because it is how I visualise my wonder of it. And my biggest wonder is the discovery of large physical memory pathways that only seem to work in low oxygen situations (NDE ?), but they don't seem to go anywhere except the top of the brain. It's as if  a large amount of "experience" needs to be moved around urgently as the blood oxygen count diminishes.

Now you all know I am contemptuous of religion, because it is, imo, a temporal distortion of the wonderful gift of human spirituality for invariably base political ends. Nevertheless I remain respectful of all manifestations of spirituality, even those constrained by religion. I do not know what happens when we die, if pushed in most conversations I will state clearly and unequivocally that we cease. Utterly. So this is kinda strange cos I'm telling a load of strangers something I would never tell even my nearest and dearest. But it "rationalises" the things I understand about the NDE and its meaning.

If spirituality means anything, then it suggests a metaphysical "existence" outside of our 4 understood dimensions (I'm ignoring the others required to support String theory). Which kinda gives it a timeless quality.

Vaguely on-topic aside : In fact some of the more interesting archeological dowsing entirely depends on creating an internal sense of free-floating in time. Also, there are magnetic machines which switch off those parts of the brain that create our internal sense of time and space (interestingly co-located near the memory shunts I mentioned) to create an artificial sense of spiritual presence.

In my view it is related to eastern ideas of re-incarnation; the essence comes into corporeal existence, learns, and then uploads the experience for the next incarnation to draw upon. That's what I think the "mechanism" exists to do, in the last moments of "life" it uploads our body of experience into our spiritual existence. So, by that understanding, the NDE occurs when the response is triggered, but the higher self intervenes to say it is not time.

Now seeing as the human animal evolved to reproduce, evolution has no interest in what happens with the individual after reproductive abilty has been achieved, it is difficult to understand how such a mechanism could come into existence within the physical brain of the animal, so I accept this is a fallacy. But this is belief, faith if you will. It's the first time I have ever written it out, I have certainly never spoken it aloud, so it probably doesn't hang together

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Thanks, Helen, for giving us another opportunity to discuss more about consciousness, in the midst of our civilization's meltdown.  While the site is filled with discussion about politics and financial thievery, it may well be that one of the root causes for our malaise is the lack of a cultural ground for spirituality. Religion for certain is the opiate of the masses, but tarring religion belies the deep spirituality which undergirds the creation and action of this cosmos.


Now you all know I am contemptuous of religion, because it is, imo, a temporal distortion of the wonderful gift of human spirituality for invariably base political ends. Nevertheless I remain respectful of all manifestations of spirituality, even those constrained by religion. I do not know what happens when we die, if pushed in most conversations I will state clearly and unequivocally that we cease. Utterly. ...

If spirituality means anything, then it suggests a metaphysical "existence" outside of our 4 understood dimensions... Which kinda gives it a timeless quality.

In other, less material cultures, another world view has ALWAYS been part of daily life, undergirding all social structure.  Native culture was healthy because spirituality was a part of daily existence.  In Rotinnosonni culture (Iroquois) every ceremony included the Thanksgiving Prayer, which embraces the interconnectedness of all life.  My sig line means "Great Peace," but in Mohawk it implies action; not only do i wish you Great Peace, but that you are always active in creating this state.

I know of a global community of physicists whose (disputed) equations are the birth pangs of a new scientific understanding of this interconnectedness, or as the Lakota say, "Mitakuye Oyasin" or All My Relations.

We all know the pitfalls of spirituality, the hubris of thinking we know or have attained something.  I've been there, and know how hard the landing can be.  I'm reminded of a night of psychedelic experimentation in a freshman dorm room at Harvard, which included my friend's roommates, the sons of the governor of Mass and the National Security Advisor.  I felt illuminated.

Then i was reminded of another Harvard student some seven decades earlier, who also included psychedelic research in his curriculum.  William James, author of "The Varieties of Religious Experience," had quite an evening with nitrous oxide (laughing gas), believing he'd discovered the secret of the universe.  Looking later at his notes, he'd written:

Higgamus Hoggamus
Woman is Monogamous
Hoggamus HIggamus
Man is Polygamous

But that doesn't invalidate the search.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 04:08:27 PM EST

But that doesn't invalidate the search.

But it is an amusing and usuful reminder of how one might be misled, however strong one's sense of conviction might have been at the time. Also the history of frauds and quacks who have been willing to exploit many people's gullibility is a long and extensive one. I'm very glad there are sceptics and debunkers around like Randi http://www.randi.org and  Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" - they are much-needed:

We're lucky to have Ben Goldacre, and maybe as a result of his book we'll have more people like him. He is fighting what sometimes seems like a one man battle against a tide of pseudoscience and an army of quacks. His main weapons are his weekly column in the Guardian newspaper, an impressive website (www.badscience.net), and now this book, which aims "to teach good science by examining the bad."

BMJ

http://www.badscience.net/2008/10/nice-review-of-the-book-in-the-british-medical-journal-by-richard- smith/#more-819

Also I don't buy these myths about scientists and their supposed narrowness and intolerance. I am sure that there are SOME like that, but just as those interested in exploring "alternative" "spiritual" (or whatever label they choose) approaches would object if one lumped all such people with the most extreme fringes, so it's quite unfair to suggest that all scientists and those generally in favour of a scientific approach to reality are all narrow and intolerant of any alternative. I think many scientists would generally agree with Einstein:

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.

Albert Einstein

Even someone like Martin Gardner, who enjoys debunking, is quite willing to admit that there are many things about which he has an open mind:

Gardner: I'm not sure why I enjoy debunking. Part of it surely is amusement over the follies of true believers, and partly because attacking bogus science is a painless way to learn good science. You have to know something about relativity theory, for example, to know where opponents of Einstein go wrong. You have to know something about probability and statistics to recognize Michael Drosnin's The Bible Code as hogwash. You have to know the power of the placebo and faith to see why Mary Baker Eddy is the very model of a quack.
...
There are dozens of monumental questions about which I have to say "I don't know." I don't know whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, or whether life is so improbable that we are truly alone in the cosmos. I don't know whether there is just one universe, or a multiverse in which an infinite number of universes explode into existence, live and die, each with its own set of laws and physical constants. I don't know if quantum mechanics will someday give way to a deeper theory. I don't know whether there is a finite set of basic laws of physics or whether there are infinite depths of structure like an infinite set of Chinese boxes.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9803/gardner.html

Nor do I buy the idea that ET in general is hostile to discussion of personal experience, consciousness, etc. I asked Fran for some evidence to support her implied cliam that there was such general hostility - no answer. If you wanted to discuss consciousness, SK, you could have written your own diary, you didn't really need Helen to give you the "opportunity" - it was always there.

Let's keep our minds open - but not so much that our brains fall out :-)


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 05:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nor do I buy the idea that ET in general is hostile to discussion of personal experience, consciousness, etc. I asked Fran for some evidence to support her implied cliam that there was such general hostility - no answer.

Your answer is the evidence, brutal pedantic skepticism is silencing when you demand concrete proofs that only exist in tone.

But...  :-))

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 06:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks Helen!!!

And Ted I do have proof, but it is in form of e-mails of other users here, which I am not going to disclose, unless these people want to repeat here themselves what they wrote to me.

And I did not respond to your demand for proof, because you give me the feeling that you are not interested in sharing. It feels like a Professor asking for homework, which he then will judge and validate or disproof.

Well, I am not your student Ted! and one of the luxuries of becoming older is not having to comply anymore. I love to share, but I resent being judged.

And as to writing my own diaries - you know even though you might think the Salon is nothing - it is time consuming and doesn't leave me much time to write diaries, besides working full time and also having sort of a life outside of ET.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:43:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And Ted I do have proof, but it is in form of e-mails of other users here, which I am not going to disclose, unless these people want to repeat here themselves what they wrote to me.

Fran, as I suggested in my REQUEST to you, some emails, from SOME people to SOME of YOUR comments/diaries don't prove a GENERAL hostility in ET. I'm sure there are a few intolerant people here, but I don't think it's typical. Also, because you, quite reasonably, don't feel able to cite the emails, we can't tell if they were reasonable, gently mocking, made some valid points, or were just stupid and nasty.

And I did not respond to your demand for proof, because you give me the feeling that you are not interested in sharing. It feels like a Professor asking for homework, which he then will judge and validate or disproof.

"demand" is emotive language - it was a request. I don't know why you assume I'm not interested in sharing and here my status is just that of a fellow contributor, and contributors frequently ask others to justify claims they have made.


I love to share, but I resent being judged.

Any judgment is not of you but of your claim and possibly of any evidence there might be for them.


And as to writing my own diaries - you know even though you might think the Salon is nothing - it is time consuming and doesn't leave me much time to write diaries, besides working full time and also having sort of a life outside of ET.

I have the greatest respect for the work you do on Salon (even if I suggested Le Carré instead of the Norwegian composer :-))and am well aware of how much time it must take and I thank you for it.

 

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 04:39:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And Ted I do have proof, but it is in form of e-mails of other users here, which I am not going to disclose, unless these people want to repeat here themselves what they wrote to me.
If you're not willing to disclose something don't mention its existance, especially in support of your argument.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 04:44:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The authoritarian tone is uncalled for, unacceptable and that 'rule' does not exist.  Please moderate yourself because nobody is here to take orders.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 06:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am still waiting for your acknowledgement that you were wrong on the etymology of 'scumbag'.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 06:13:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
brutal pedantic skepticism

What an an absurd caricature - of a reasonable request for some evidence to support an accusation that there was general hostility to discussion of personal experience, consciousness, etc. in ET. There is nothing "silencing" about it and if its a matter of some vague "tone" which some people just feel is there, then they can say that and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 03:58:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are, of course entitled to your opinions, as am I.

Fran admits she distrusts your motives in your responses, I would imagine you have realised by now that I share a similar mistrust. I have said to others in similar situations, "You don't care to be right, you just want to win. And it's not helpful."

If you peruse the Open Thread last Friday you will see that Fran raised an issue about the relative lack of female participation on ET and one of the issues that came up was that of "silencing". And here you are, not only providing a classic demonstration of the privilege that leads to silencing, but are suggesting that when I point this out I am being absurd...qed

It's all about tone, Ted.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:19:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen... If we're going to talk about tone (with reference to individual members), then we'd also have to look at your own often "strenuous" commenting style. (Just an example, we could also include mine ;-)).

I suggest this has gone far enough.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:25:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I was reluctant to make that comment, god knows I re-wrote it often enough. But my criticism stands.

I know I am robust (I don't strenuous quite means what you think it does) in my defence, but rarely in offense.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 06:03:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's silencing and there's feeling silenced.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:40:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. But others serve just as well.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 06:04:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This applies to everyone here.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 06:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You are, of course entitled to your opinions, as am I.

Well that's a relief :-)

Fran admits she distrusts your motives in your responses, I would imagine you have realised by now that I share a similar mistrust. I have said to others in similar situations, "You don't care to be right, you just want to win. And it's not helpful."

How richly ironic, I question whether there is a hostile attitude to personal issues, consciousness, etc. and I get hostile personal attacks questioning my motives and attitudes. It seems there is evidence here for Colman's claim :-) :


I'll claim there's pretty general hostility to a sceptical view on these things.   And I have evidence, but I can't present it.

To adopt this personal approach for a moment (sorry afew), I think your hostility, Helen, might well be motivated by the fact that I have questioned some of your more generalised assertions and asked for some evidence - how "brutal" and "silencing" of me ! And usually you don't provide any. The last time questioned one of your comments you adopted the ad hominem approach you use here, and accused me of "wilful circularity". When I asked where I had been guilty of that - how mean of me to make such a "demand" ! :-) you were uncharacteristically silent - ah, my fault of course :-)

If you peruse the Open Thread last Friday you will see that Fran raised an issue about the relative lack of female participation on ET

If YOU peruse it you'll see that I participated, and one female agreed with one of my general points, relevant here:


Re: Questions to women! (none / 0)
[Ted] "I welcome all kinds of diaries, but if you include some general claims about the world expect to have them challenged"

BINGO!

by poemless


... and one of the issues that came up was that of "silencing". And here you are, not only providing a classic demonstration of the privilege that leads to silencing, but are suggesting that when I point this out I am being absurd...qed

What "privilege" ? Oh right, I'm male :-) Actually Fran has not been silenced, so your QED doesn't work, and the claim that merely requesting evidence for claims is "silencing" IS absurd. Unfortunately she also chooses to attack my supposed attitudes and motives.

It's all about tone, Ted.

No, it's not, but both you and Fran might raise the tone by sticking to the issues rather than indulging in ad hominem attacks - or do they come under the "personal issues" supposedly outlawed by the technocratic  males here ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 07:54:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If YOU peruse it you'll see that I participated, and one female agreed with one of my general points, relevant here:
Re: Questions to women! (none / 0)
[Ted] "I welcome all kinds of diaries, but if you include some general claims about the world expect to have them challenged"
BINGO!

by poemless

I found that comment of poemless' ambiguous - maybe you were proving the point by example?

It gets to the point where one wonders how many people see "welcome" and "challenge" as incompatible.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 08:01:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well she also gave this a 4 (which I assume indicates approval - or perhaps she just liked being quoted approvingly :-) ) :


Re: Questions to women! (4.00 / 8)

 [poemless]   But if you have something you are passionate about and you think would be beneficial to impart to the world, and a great outlet like ET to use for your medium, go for it.

Well said.

Fran, if someone tries to say your personal experience can be disproved - that's their problem. But if you presented your personal experience as proving something general, they are entitled to question that. You would only need to back up your report on your own experience with links to evidence if you were claiming some general significance. If not - as poemless says - "go for it".

and others who gave it a 4 included metavision and fran.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 08:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd appreciate it if my previous comments were not used in your little flamewar like this.  If I had wanted to comment here I would have.  I feel like I am forced to comment now because you guys have cherrypicked some random quotes of mine and have me debating myself.  Quote me if you want - but I assure you I am perfectly capable of speaking on my own behalf - so don't go there.  

If you have an argument to make, use your own words.  

I think those who make general assertions about the world should expect to have them challenged.  That does not imply all assertions are wrong.

I think people should be encouraged to write about their personal experiences.  I do not think personal experiences can or even should be challenged in the same way.

And most of all, I don't think MY OPINION is proof of anything one way or another.  

Oh, and I will add that it appears to the casual observer that some female diarists have been asked to contribute more, have been assured that their contributions are welcome, and you guys are trying to make it all about yourselves.  Anyone is free to comment, but it not a matter of rules, but tact and perspective.  I mean, Fran asked all the women to comment, and the thread became dominated by men.  Please, sometimes it is best to try to understand someone's attempts outside of how they relate to you.  There is something called Active Listening.  I find it absent in some of these conversations.  The fact that I see a pattern of female posters having to ask to be able to speak for themselves is deeply disturbing to me.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 03:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think those who make general assertions about the world should expect to have them challenged.

I'm glad you've made your view about that clear.

That does not imply all assertions are wrong.

Obviously not.


I think people should be encouraged to write about their personal experiences.  I do not think personal experiences can or even should be challenged in the same way.

Again we agree about that.


... Fran asked all the women to comment, and the thread became dominated by men.  
 

And that is entirely the fault of the men ?

   

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
cherrypicked some random quotes of mine and have me debating myself

Nuh uh, flip-flopper!

;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 06:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is challenge that furthers the debate and then there is the challenge you named following my rant against philosophers as sophist.

Both in the diary and in a comment made before this erupted I commented that I felt I had put myself on the line and made myself very vulnerable with writing this diary. I wrote this with the naive intent of wanting to suggest and inform and invite others to share their ideas about this subject, not to have mine or other contributions trashed just cos we can't furnish concrete proofs in sufficient detail to satisfy interrogators whose motives seem unclear.

This diary has 27 or so comments at this time. Only 3 or 4 seem to be on the subject I wrote about. Right now, I'm seriously regretting having written it. I'm sorry if I'm being over-sensitive and showing all the signs of being a drama queeen but I had thought I'd made my sensitivity about the subject plain at the time of writing.

You carry on. I'm done here

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 09:02:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where is ARGeezer when we need him ? :

... While I do not recommend that all college undergraduates be required to take a course on rhetroic, I do think that they should be required to take a course that alerts them to the power of that art to win on style arguments that should loose on substance.

http://www.eurotrib.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2008/10/18/55252/796

... not to have mine or other contributions trashed just cos we can't furnish concrete proofs in sufficient detail to satisfy interrogators whose motives seem unclear.

Where has anybody attacked what you wrote ? So I don't get the point about vulnerability, apart from trying to get the sympathy vote. Discussions often veer off in ways not expected by the authors of diaries.

Now we get more caricature - not only is a simple request for some evidence - to someone else in another place - to support a claim about general hostility in ET to certain kinds of subjects: "brutal pedantic skepticism" and "silencing" - now it's also to "trash" something and "interrogation" - where did I leave my jackboots ?

Talk about rhetoric ! At least now my motives are just "unclear" - though clearly they are suspicious.  

"Drama queen" - I couldn't possibly comment :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:35:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
cat
more animals

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:47:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where is ARGeezer when we need him ?
Getting up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night!

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 01:11:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know what it's like :-( You attend to the important issues while we squabble :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 02:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll claim there's pretty general hostility to a sceptical view on these things.   And I have evidence, but I can't present it.

ET is not, has never been hostile to a discussion of personal experience of consciousness. However, it has become hostile to anyone who wants to subject claims about such things to rational analysis.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted Welch:
Let's keep our minds open - but not so much that our brains fall out

Who will decide when the mind is open and when the brains fall out?

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 01:09:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, apparently you appear to know how open people's minds are... :-)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 03:56:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obviously it will be a matter of discussion - as in science :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 04:01:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the comment. I must admit that one of the reasons I don't go on about this is that I don't know. I can try to guess what happens at the boundary of death, but if you go through the gate at the end of that tunnel instead of turning back, then....who knows ? No NDE has come back from beyond that point.

It is unknown and unknowable and going on about it, building great religions don't change that one indisputable fact ; once you go through that gate, nobody comes back to tell the tale. So why should my idea have any more validity than anybody elses's ? So I keep my counsel and keep the peace. I still don't know I did the right thing even writing it down.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 06:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not knowing is good.

You can never have too much not knowing, IMO.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 09:21:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the link to Jack Sarfatti.  I have for a while had the sense that one or another aspects of quantum theory, as I perceive it through non specialist presentations in Science News, Scientific American, Discover, etc., or that a possible such theory could be perfectly congruent with the descriptions in the Vedas of the inner Self, or Atman, the Universal Self and the Divine Ground of Being and the interrelationship between those aspects.

In his introduction to the Gita Huxley described the principal of direct perception of some of the aspects of the inner self and the higher self.  I have had certain limited experiences that I believe fall into those categories.  As melo said, you cannot explain what a banana tastes like to one who has never tasted one, and after they have tasted one, explanations are superfluous.

Helen, I like your explanation of the "life review" phenomenon.  It seems quite plausible, but none of the experiences I personally have had have shed any light on such matters as reincarnation.  I am, however, aware of small children who have made detailed references to and described experiences which could only be explained in terms of a prior life or just be left unexplained. That is about as close as I can presently come to any observation or experience that could be confirmatory.  It is yet another experience that I hold in a space of suspended judgment.  Sort of a mental curiosity cabinet.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 19th, 2008 at 10:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, Gods, Sarfatti.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 04:54:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hi ARGeezer, I hope you won't take this as "brutal pedantic skepticism" or as a "dmand" :-) -  but could you elaborate on what you mean by "perfectly congruent" ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perfectly congruent is perhaps not the best choice on reflection, Ted.  What I was getting at is that the Vedas are formulated in a non-mathematical form, but the concepts could be more formally described, but probably not by me.  (I aced Abstract Algebra--Piano's Theorems, Inductive Logic, etc, but that was 45 years ago.)  I would expect that certain elements and relationships that are described in the Vedas could be mapped into similar elements and relationships that would be found in that possible postulated quantum theory.  Further, given the discursive, aphoristic presentation utilized in the Vedas, I would anticipate that there would be a much richer field of elements and relationships in the quantum theory than could be identified from the Vedas.  This could give rise to predictions for which experimental, or at least, experiential verification could be sought in the realm of the human psyche, between human psyches, etc.

Sadly, for myself at least, I lack three qualifications to pursue such an investigation. First, my mathematical skills are inadequate.  The Abstract Algebra course was my sole triumph in mathematics.  I was fortunate to have a superb teacher for that course.  Had I belonged in such fields, the quality of instruction would have been less critical.  Second, I have no Sanskrit.  That, at least in theory, could be remedied, but it is not a practical possibility at my age and in my current location.  Third, I would need a guide to the interior meaning of the Vedas who did not make demands on me that I am incapable of accepting.  In that tradition, there are two paths to union with the divine: the path of faith and devotion, or Bhakti, and the path of knowledge and wisdom, or Zdani, (transliterations are from memory.)  The Bhakti path is incompatable with my temperamental and intellectual make-up.  All of the commentators say that the Zdani path is by far the more difficult, and it is likely that I do not possess the requisites.  I certainly have not had the opportunity.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 01:01:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I suspect that if I gently tease you about this, you won't launch into a personal attack, nor flounce out of the room :-)

So they're not "perfectly congruent" (somehow I thought that might be the case) but, if I've understood you - IF the Vedas had been expressed in mathematical form, and if you were better at mathematics, and if you were fluent in Sanskrit, you're sure there would some - uh - interesting similarities, but you can't - given your limitations - be sure. That right ? :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 03:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From your point of view that would be about it.  However, in melo's analogy, I have tasted the banana.  I have had some direct experiences which I find much more meaningful in terms of the Vedas and/or a possible quantum mechanics than they can be found to be in terms of anything that would pass the smell test in academia.  One of the interesting things about the sense of smell is how we come to tune out odors that are constantly present.  That of course applies to all of us.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 03:26:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really would like you to make your references to quantum mechanics a bit more explicit.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 03:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you ever seen one of these little packets? Can you be sure where they are? ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 03:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
During my first two years in LA I was an instructor in a private school.  We joked that we served the hill dwelling cultures of Hollywood Hills, Beverly Hills and Pacific Palisades.  In eighth grade science I was discussing the periodic table and how its structure related to the shell structure of the atom.  One rather impish student asked me "Sir, what color is an electron?" I was delighted with the question and used it to describe how, while electrons could not be said to possess color, they could exhibit color in the form of electromagnetic radiation released when the electron jumped from one shell to another, as in some of our demonstrations with chemicals on a nichrome wire when placed in a bunsen burner.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:15:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mig, I would also like to be able to make my references more specific.  Unfortunately the parts that really interest me and that are relevant to this discussion are a pastiche of impressions and memories I have picked up from generalists descriptions.  Would that I still or ever possessed a memory for detail even close to yours.  

I understand that useful application of quantum theory has mostly been on a microscopic scale. The notable exception being the Bose-Einstein effect with superfluids, if I have that correct.  However, the October issue of Scientific American has an interesting article that applies a theory of loop quantum gravity to cosmology.  This work references work by Lee Smolin on space-time atoms, which sets limits on the degree of density that can be achieved in  a Big Bang type collapse.  It has implications that lead him to propose a Big Bounce and a bouncing universe.  Quantum explanations of gravity and space-time would clearly constitute a macroscopic extension of quantum theory.

Crazy Horse's link to Jack Safratti is not the first reference I have seen to quantum inferences about dimensions where there is no direction assigned to the arrow of time.  I am not proposing that I can prove any of these things or even construct a convincing argument for such inferences.  But I can see a possible mapping  of the relationships described in the Vedas into a possible quantum theory of the cosmos.  That is for me an intuitive leap based on experiences that I have found best explained in terms of the Vedas.

One of the four doctrines Huxley described as part of the Perennial Philosophy postulated that man, through the indwelling self, could, through intuition, directly experience aspect of the Ultimate Reality.  What I posit is that this is possible, that this has happened and that this may be the source of many of the insights that have led to advances in science as well as to religious experiences.  If true, this could unify science and religion on grounds acceptable to all who operate from the level of their own experiences as opposed to a level of accepting "revelations" previously imparted to others.

One thing of which I am relatively certain is that I will not be the one to accomplish these things.  That is a young man's game and I never had the mathematical aptitude to play that game on any but the most basic levels.  I could probably do somewhat better than the foregoing if I wanted to devote the time.  If you or others want to laugh at me for my presumption in the face of my limitations, I will not begrudge you that right.  After all, I regularly laugh at myself.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 12:31:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Crazy Horse's link to Jack Safratti is not the first reference I have seen to quantum inferences about dimensions where there is no direction assigned to the arrow of time.  I am not proposing that I can prove any of these things or even construct a convincing argument for such inferences.  But I can see a possible mapping  of the relationships described in the Vedas into a possible quantum theory of the cosmos.  That is for me an intuitive leap based on experiences that I have found best explained in terms of the Vedas."

"If you or others want to laugh at me for my presumption in the face of my limitations, I will not begrudge you that right.  After all, I regularly laugh at myself."

Well said.

And very interesting observation, AZGeezer.

I think many who have thought of this deeply, have seen this connection.

We must not try to convert the atheists, however.

They will be provided for in the grand scheme of things, and probably no worse for wear.

Just my thoughts on this.

Will try to write something when the flames die out.

And Helen, this was a very thought-provoking diary!

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 at 07:44:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Eric.

I actually spent some time composing that response; my attempt to be a bit more specific as to what I meant about a possible quantum theory, (or a possible successor to current theories that account for such phenomena.)  While these theories have mostly dealt with phenomena on the nano-scale or smaller, my own sense it that if such systems are required to explain events on those levels, comparable theories are likely to be found at some point on a macro scale.  I was satisfied merely to have clarified some of my own murky thinking by so doing.  Your response is icing on the cake.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 at 12:13:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ARGeezer:
While these theories have mostly dealt with phenomena on the nano-scale or smaller, my own sense it that if such systems are required to explain events on those levels, comparable theories are likely to be found at some point on a macro scale.

the hermetic philosophy, essentially.

your posts are very enjoyable, one can feel how much and how deeply you have wondered about these chestnuts.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 at 03:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hermeneutics is an essential part of the quest, the science of going within.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 at 11:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i was specifically thinking of their dictum: as above, so below.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 at 04:18:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]


than they can be found to be in terms of anything that would pass the smell test in academia.

You seem a bit out of date, for some time now the house of academe has been home to a wide variety of smells.  Some of them would have no problem at all with your ideas. Some of them even had room for Sokal's hoax :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 01:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice diary Helen! Will try to comment more later on.

One thing you might want to check the link to 'Fran's dissociated memories' - I am not sure what it has to do with me.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:45:49 AM EST
ooops, corrected.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 05:24:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but


Now seeing as the human animal evolved to reproduce, evolution has no interest in what happens with the individual after reproductive abilty has been achieved

I think that this statement is just plain incorrect.  People of grandparent's age can and have contributed many things to a successful society: wisdom, child-rearing while the parents are busy with active activities, etc.  This also figures in to the "evolutionary" picture.  

Swear to God.  NOBODY would give a rat's ass about "life after death" shit and this entire topic if it weren't for your biologically programmed "fear of death".  I look forward to GETTING THE FUCK OFF THIS PLANET!  Fortunately being here is only a life sentence.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 08:50:29 AM EST
For a starter, there are studies that show older grandma's "forcing" (statistically significantly) more grandchildren...
by das monde on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 01:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[q]And my biggest wonder is the discovery of large physical memory pathways that only seem to work in low oxygen situations (NDE ?), [/q]

A number of studies have shown NDE experiences in normal oxygen situations.  An NDE with normal oxygen rules out low oxygen as an NDE cause. A google search would probably reveal a couple.

The life review is very interesting.

The depth of detail and the ability to "read the mind/emotions" of others while re-experiencing an event within the life review suggests that the experience is not so much a memory review but a revisiting of the actual experience/event.  Often the additional information gained from the review would not be possible if the experience was based on pure memory.  

It is as if the past continues to exist and is available for revisiting during the life review.

by Jagger on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 02:13:06 PM EST
Our memories seem to be organized more on the basis of the emotional intensity and significance of the memory than on the basis of the memories place in a chronological sequence.  Perhaps that is what is meant by those who have said the "unconscious" is timeless.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 at 01:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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