The Fall?

by afew
Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 09:13:27 AM EST

Opening an article from a couple of weeks ago, William Pfaff says:

Karl Marx, were he still about, would surely be interested in the report that unregulated free-market capitalism has died in a flash, by its own hand; whereas it took 70 years and a cold war to bring down the Marxist economy established in the Soviet Union following the Bolshevik Revolution.

The Marxist economy died of its internal contradictions. This was the fate Marxism (or Marxism-Leninism) had predicted for capitalism, not for itself. Unregulated free-market capitalism may be said to have killed itself by greed, vanity and excess, all amply evident before and at the death-scene, but the ultimate guilt must be attributed to the vacuity and perversity of market ideology, which contradicts human nature.

In this, it exactly resembles the American national foreign affairs ideology, that democracy will always eventually triumph over all else.
Regrettably, this is an illusion, clung to in American government, political, and to a considerable degree, academic circles. It is stubbornly adhered to because everyone would like to think it true, since it is very reassuring to Americans, and an uplifting idea.

Both market and democracy ideologies rest on a belief in the essential goodness of mankind, admittedly blocked from time to time by institutional or intellectual obstructions, which have only to be removed for harmony to be restored.

The first question that seems to occur is: has unregulated free-market capitalism died in a flash? Really?

Beyond that, Pfaff considers (and goes on to develop), the notion of the essential goodness of mankind. Are we looking again at an Enlightenment myth, that of the noble savage, the goodness (whatever that means) of man in the state of nature (whatever that means)?

Interestingly close in theme to Migeru's diary and the following discussion, Soros on Politics, Pfaff's article seems to me to point again to the need to rethink our view of humanity from, at least, the Enlightenment baseline.


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Pfaff concludes on the need to

reconstruct public policy on the basis of an historical understanding of how people actually behave rather than on theories about how they might be presumed to behave in the world of abstractions.

Certainly. But what is a realistic view of human behaviour, on which reconstruction could take place?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 09:21:50 AM EST
could take place => could be based
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 09:22:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's worth noting that "the world of abstractions" view promoted by the free-marketeers isn't one of the "essential goodness of mankind" but in fact the "essential amoral rationality of mankind."

The crisis is mostly about the failures of rationality[+], although the backdrop (increasing voter distaste for income inequality) also puts questions over the amorality.

[+] Technically of course, part of the crisis is not that people did not behave rationally, more that "rational maximisation" without reference to rules and timeframes just doesn't produce the results the propagandists say it does. (Mostly because in fact their model contain buried rules and timeframes that they tend to prefer to deny.)

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 09:33:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It does, but the core propagandists have always been lying about the results.

They've kept the amorality, but thrown out the rationality.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 09:40:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but I don't think "essential goodness" here should be taken in the sense of "full of the milk of human kindness".

In an historical perspective, goodness in the state of nature is opposed to  the state of nature defined/defiled by original sin, the standard pre-Enlightenment narrative. It's close to the clean slate idea, Locke's tabula rasa according to which we build our own destinies, and are not predestined by our fallen nature.

Amoral rationality (meaning choices are made rationally, and are not subject to moral judgement or do not participate in the moral sphere) is a system that could not have been, or certainly was not, built on the previous doctrine of human nature. In that sense, "essential goodness" can be said to be a basic building block on which free-market theories repose.

Or not. Shoot at it?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:17:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can see your point and you're correct that the models often lack any sense of "legal enforcement" or related costs. As such they do presume an "essential goodness." (Likewise the connection between "consumer choice" and Locke's tabula rasa.)

But I would maintain that the "absence of original sin" does to some degree at least imply something of the "milk of human kindness."

The "noble savage" is noble because he behaves in a "noble" manner. That "nobility" is not all "milk of human kindness" but I think there are overtones there.

However, I suppose in favour of your argument is that the "state of nature" is often equated with "naive trust" which is also a feature of the most simplistic market models...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would seem to me that "amoral rationality" is the mainspring of social Darwinism, which emerged in the 19th century as a counter-narrative to socialism and social responsibility.

One problem today is that social Darwinism remains to some degree implicit in the general free-market doctrine (perhaps more so today than thirty years ago), even though it has been long since discredited. So I see "amoral rationality" as problematic not just on account of its patent inaccuracy, but its implications as well.

I think the anthropologists and behavioral economists already have the makings of a view of humanity that would stand up pretty well in reality. But social Darwinism, even when only implicit, is an extremely comfortable world view if you're at the top of the income pyramid. So as a practical matter, "amoral rationality" will probably be a difficult doctrine to dislodge.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 11:38:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Every now and again I wonder if Social Darwinism isn't a validating doctrine.

A basic finding of social-psychology is when a member of a group - even an ad-hoc group - thinks they are out of touch with the group that person experiences anxiety, seeks to relieve that anxiety.  

Could it be Social Darwinism is a coping/validating mechanism for the Ruling Class?
 

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:13:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my view that is exactly what Social Darwinism is.  After all, the First Law of Narcissism is that everyone wants to think well of themselves.  Social Darwinism does that quite well for social predators.  It is a social construct designed to justify and glorify evil dressed up as social science.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The "noble savage" was one Enlightenment View of man and is often associated with J.J. Rouseau.  It did not hold the field uncontested.  Its earlier counterpoint was from Hobbes' Leviathan who saw life as "short, nasty and brutish."  Adam Smith held an intermediate view which was that the proper functioning of business required sensible regulation by the government and that the demands of business on behavior would tend towards a more civil population.

What we should properly be engaged in here is the deconstruction of neo-classical economics a la Milton Friedman.  It would appear that "homo economicus" was put forward more for his usefulness as a shill and a lookout than for his explanatory power.  The whole structure of neo-classical economics best makes sense when viewed as a propaganda tool to cover and enable the looting of the economy by the elite.  After all, one only needs to understand a small part of the operation of a bank in order to rob it.  

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is something of an oversimplification. Rousseau was criticized for an alleged belief in the Noble Savage by other enlightenment thinkers such as Voltaire, who famously opposed education for peasants and servants. No Rousseau scholar thinks he believed in the "Noble Savage" and Rousseau himself denied it. The trope of the virtuous uncivilized man was a rhetorical device used to criticize French absolutism and the abuses of religion at a time when more direct criticism resulted in torture and imprisonment. This happened to Diderot early in his career, later he more prudently put criticisms of the regime in the words of fictional Tahitians, in his Supplement to the Voyages of Bougainville.

What Rousseau did was articulate the view (that he was not alone in holding) that maybe "progress" was not all it was cracked up to be. That "progress"  was inevitable, and beneficent has been orthodoxy until quite recently. (Though Malthus, who is getting a second look today, had questioned the view early on). Rousseau's sin -- the real reason he was (and continues to be) pilloried -- was his belief in human equality

Both Marx and the Freemarketeers incidentally, believe in Progress.

For a different take on these matters, I recommend the book by Ter Ellingson, The Myth of the Noble Savage. http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Noble-Savage-Ter-Ellingson/dp/0520226100/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&a mp;qid=1223143315&sr=8-1A review on the History Cooperative has this to say: "As Ter Ellingson sees it, the term noble savage was a rhetorical construct rather than a substantive object, and he classifies the myth to which it gave rise as a scholarly hoax that was perpetrated for political reasons. Instead of achieving its purpose, the myth developed a life of its own and became embedded in anthropological as well as popular thought, where it continues to this day." Ellison convincingly demonstrates how in the last half of the nineteenth century the accusation of belief in the noble savage was used by scientific racists as cudgel with which to beat those who opposed slavery and imperialism." http://www.historycooperative.org/cgi-bin/justtop.cgi?act=justtop&url=http://www.historycooperat ive.org/journals/jah/88.4/br_6.html

by John Culpepper on Sat Oct 4th, 2008 at 02:08:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it was one sentence, used to set up some additional brief context for the time.  And "Progress" was still being pedaled by Ron Reagan when he was the pitchman for G.E, ( "Progress is our most important product!"), towards the end of the Modern Era in the early '60s, when he wasn't pitching Twenty Mule Team Borax for Death Valley Days.  "Progress" has pretty much been given its due by the post-modern critique.  I used to parody RR's line for G.E. as "Progress is our only product!"

I actually have a high regard for much of Rousseau's work and influence.  He was an advocate for the importance of feelings, passions and sentiments, which were given short shrift by Classical rationality and by much of the scientific establishment.  You may have noticed that many on this site are not great fans of restraining the expression of our feelings about events and developments. In that regard Jean Jacques is a sort of patron saint.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 at 01:13:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Rousseau believed in education -- and in scholarship. That's good. He also believed in a European Union. Also good.

Like many of his contemporaries he admired the Spartans a bit too much for our taste and he also believed women should be subordinate -- not so good.

I accidentally put an extra quotation mark at the end of my previous post. The final sentence of which is mine not the History Cooperative.

I've come to believe that all this talk about "the fall of man" and being a "realist" is a form of self presentation (advertising) left over from the Cold War.

by John Culpepper on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 at 10:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for a realistic view of human nature...

If you want a full general theory you have to go to the behavioural psychologists/economists who are doing experiments on this and developing some ideas.

Instinctively:

Humans are, it seems, in the main, moderately good, when not asked to resist too much temptation. There are some who are psychologically tuned to breaking rules for various reasons. (Some of these, those who do so for their own gain, or for sadistic power pleasures tend to be known as psychopaths.)

As such, systems of regulation should be constructed so as to avoid putting people under too much temptation where possible (relying on the honour of the individual breaks down over time because sooner or later a bad/weaker individual gets the role.)

There also need to be mechanisms to identify "psychopaths" and limit the damage they can do.

Most of all though, what the current crisis reminds us of is that there is always a tradeoff between "perfect efficiency" and the "robustness" of a system.

The propagandists encouraged us to dismantle the supports and slack in the system, to "make it more efficient" so that more money could be extracted from it. This of course made the system more frail. It's really time we started valuing the robustness of critical[+] systems more.

[+] Critical usually means "really important to our way of life" but what the collapse of isolated parts of a byzantine financial system that doesn't appear to touch normal life reminds us is that critical also means "systems that in their failure can drag our way of life down with them."

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 09:42:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Point taken about the fragility of ultra-lean compared to a spot of slack and flab here and there.

Is it enough to explain what's happening? Does it replace the unregulated freedom explanation?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:27:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm not sure what you're asking.

Generically, "freedom" is a good, but we're not truly so brainwashed as a populace that you could have created a political narrative for deregulation that relied on the notion that the poor bankers' constitutional right to lend money any way they wanted to were being infringed...

Rather, the basic argument for "deregulation" was that regulations were getting in the way of "financial innovation" that would make the markets "more productive" and "more efficient." And thus we'd all get richer.

I see those riches being bought at the price of increased fragility.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:38:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant markets becoming freer, less regulated, hence "excess" and crash.

But if you're arguing that deregulation was the road to efficiency and therefore fragility, that is slightly different.

I think there may be both. Hyper-leverage and oblivion to risk seem to me to come more under the heading "excess" than "efficiency", unless efficiency is solely defined as capturing the most wealth fastest.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think most humans are moderately good when prosperous, moderately bad when frightened, and more than moderately unable to make long-term decisions about democratic outcomes.

In any case, it's impossible to use absolutes like 'good' without a functional 'good for what?' sub-clause.

I think there's a useful inkling that this is primarily an ethical problem. But so far all of our ethical solutions have been cast as absolutes and generalities, with the result that in spite of a modest attempt at genuine populist democracy, we're still in the pre-enlightenment position of being ruled by highwaymen with unusually expensive tastes.

Perhaps a better approach is to ask a different question. If you assume that the goal is a set of universals, which include free high quality healthcare and education, freedom to be rewarded for genuine innovation, and freedom from highwaymen - what's the best way to get there?

I'm not using highwaymen as a metaphor. The fact that the theft is disguised as a financial industry doesn't change its basic function, which is to relieve people of their wealth and not to contribute to any notion of the common good, except when grudgingly forced to.

Getting into more detail about practical, as opposed to theoretical, human nature would need a diary to itself.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 12:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As happens often, you drag us back to the central questions- the ones that so often get lost in the limits of language.

Consider doing the diary. Please.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can we please dispense with "Absolutes" as Goals?  (Though not, I hasten to add, as praxiological qualia and warrants.)  There's no tool, as of today, to get There.

Any Deductive system lies at the mercy of its axioms.

Any Inductive system returns only what is being looked at shaped by the boundaries and constraints of the tool being used.  

"Universals" has some of the same problems as "Absolutes" when defining Goals.  But it is possible to cast them as: We want to achieve [U {A, B, ... X, Y, Z}] to the extent and limitation of [u{a, b, c ... x, y, z}].

Giving us someway to get There.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Practical, as opposed to theoretical, human nature" was one of the questions here. Perfectly understandable it may take a diary. Or two.

But we need to think about it. Whether we choose to bring in the Enlightenment or not.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 02:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But what is a realistic view of human behaviour, on which reconstruction could take place?

  Clare Graves

If you want to answer this question in more than a brief questionable form, let me know.  It would take a diary series here at ET.  I should have the time because I have temporarily suspended (ala McCain!) my Embryonic Police State series ... didn't realize how DEPRESSING it would be.  Like a diary series on first hand accounts of serious traffic accidents. UGH!

Get back to me on this one; could be interesting.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 12:40:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
human behavior in the abstract, you have to embrace the widest possible range of contexts.  

For example

this.  

Last time I looked, Sorensen's own site, which would go into more detail, was down.  

The point being that--even though we conceive of no way to move from a post-conquest world to a pre-conquest one--pre-conquest peoples are happier, friendlier, and more peaceable than we are, and being every bit as human as we would claim to be:  This has to be factored into any abstract concept of human behavior.  

Our own circumstances are less fortunate, and reflect our persuasive environment of greed and violence.  But, what of that?  Any useful theory for us has to deal with possibilities for mitigating our situation, not claims for human perfectability/imperfectability which are inherently bogus and a distraction.  

The 18th century philosophers may have actually been aware of wider possibilities than we are, as the cultures of native peoples on three continents had not yet been wiped out.  

We now base our understanding of human psychology mainly on male college students.  Which is just pathetic.  

Also, you might want to consider how hierarchical systems--such as ours--inherently favor the advancement of psychopaths to positions of power, thus promulgating behaviors of lying, corruption, and violence throughout the whole system.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 at 12:31:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm always amazed when people quote Marxist and then they practically betray the fact that they never read him.

When the capitalist system crashes in Marx, the proletariat takes control of the institutional apparatus.

Something very similar to capitalism takes its place, with the proletariat controlling the levers.

The main critique of capitalism is not that people exploit one in another in order to build wealth, but that capitalism itself relies on an ideology that first reproduces the conditions of production before it reproduces anything. That's exactly what we see in the markets today, especially with such exotic and abstract instruments in the futures market. They endless proliferation of objects meant to simply reproduce the conditions of production without actually producing anything.

Capitalism under a Marxist regime would be a capitalism that attempts to concretize its metaphors and prevent exoticism and abstraction.

I'm not saying this would actually work.

But I am saying that, and I know this for a fact, a lot of the people working for hedge funds on Wall Street have read their Marx, and ALL of writing can be instantly recalled and accessed in any conversation with one of them. It's pervasive. Now, that doesn't make them Marxists, but no doubt Marxist philosophy enables them to enrich themselves when the critique of capital is used to exploit capital's vulnerability.

by Upstate NY on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:02:59 AM EST
Good points, though I very much doubt William Pfaff has never read Marx...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:23:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, you got me there.

I guess I should not be as reductivist as the writer I'm accusing of being reductivist.

by Upstate NY on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 11:38:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I'm not sure he's making a judgement on Marxism as much as playing with conventional wisdom on what happened to "Marxism". And turning it on its head in relation to what's happening to "unregulated free-market capitalism".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 02:56:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he must mean -- the essential goodness of Providence, which Marx believed in too, it seems (he called it History/historical materialism, no?). I.E., everything is going according to Providence/God's benevolent plan and will work out in the end.

Slightly, related -- I liked David Colbert on this -- about the Free Market God versus the other one.

by John Culpepper on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:42:21 AM EST
Critics of Marx have accused him of creating a new religion to replace the one he rejected.  He advocated dialectical materialism, as distinguished from the Hegelian dialectic which did have an and element somewhat like Platonic Idealism.  Critics of Marxism are more on target when they accuse the Soviet State of turning Marx into something like a state religion.  Marx described religion as "the opiate of the masses."  What then was opium?  The new heresy?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was responding to this:
Both market and democracy ideologies rest on a belief in the essential goodness of mankind,

It is true that they are mirror images of each other but neither believes in "the essential goodness of mankind" ("if men were angels" .. remember)

Both believe that historical necessity has a predetermined end, and that the end will be "good" -- social justice in one case, equilibrium in the other. This to me is a belief in Providence. And to be fair almost everybody believed in Providence in the 19th C., including agnostics. Or more precisely, virtually all belief systems were underlain with a belief in Providence.

As far as Marxism being a religion, some people will make a religion out of anything. Marxists themselves believe that their theories are science.

I admire Marx and Engels moralists, journalists, rhetorician, and social historian, but I don't buy their eschatology.

I also usually admire William Pfaff, but in waving about the spectre of "belief in the goodness of mankind" he is guilty sloganeering -- or coded language. Not sure what he is trying to imply, though. Maybe he is just on automatic pilot.

When you look closely at the usual suspects who are hauled before the bar and accused of "belief in the essential goodness of mankind", you find that they actually believed no such thing. It is a straw man argument.
 

by John Culpepper on Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 at 07:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Marxist economy died of its internal contradictions.

Firstly, what were the internal contradictions?

Even the orthodox Soviet Marxism-Leninism does not look terribly bad when looking back from now (especially through post-soviet Russia). One emergent reason for the Soviet failure is that actually very few were interested in saving (or even keeping) the system. Self-interested ideology would not had allowed itself to dissapear so quietly.

And then, surely, there is an issue of less narrow interpretations of Marxism. If core Marxism is cold dead, something like it will be born anyway.

by das monde on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 12:30:29 PM EST
Like all of the Grand Narratives which live in the humanities, Marxism split the world up into very crude and simplistic absolutes. There were Workers, there were Owners, there was a Bourgeoisie, and eventually also a Petty Bourgeoisie.

Like feminism, socialism, capitalism, and most other isms, the basic internal contradiction is that these definitions are supposed to be completely define relationship dynamics. So if you're a Worker you have a certain set of qualities, by definition. If you're an Owner you have a different set of qualities.

Absolutes like these are unhelpful, if not downright stupid. What's missing is a personal context.

Specific actions and relationships - usually power relationships based on dominance and submission hierarchies - are the problem. The labels are a misdirection. They're too crude to be useful as a description of real social relations, except in a very caricatured and superficial way.

So in practice what happens is that the Grand Narrative disguises and legitimises everyday acts of social violence in Marxism, Capitalism, Christianity, Islam, Nationalism, and the rest.

I suspect almost all Grand Narratives exist to do this, and it's very difficult to see morality in terms of specific and personal human relationships between individuals when there's a Grand Narrative available to tell you what to feel.

There's a subset of Grand Narratives which focus on personal relationship in a more positive way, but they're rare and not usually very popular - certainly not politically.

Possibly also relevant is the Karpman Drama Triangle - which is a good a map of how political Grand Narratives seem to play out as any.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 12:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Logic of the time forced Marx's analysis to split into Absolutes.  At that time Excluded Middle logic was all there was, even Hegel's Dialectic (an forthright attack on abstract Categorical dualism) only resolved the problem by appealing to a higher order Absolute Unity or a dynamic Synthetic Unity.  (At least that's my take.  YMMV.)  

We know better, now.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Marxism was just a theory. Even in the 19th thinkers understood that a theory is not literally the absolute truth, or a definite law, or all-embracing imperative. Even Bolsheviks did not read Marxism as "completely defining relationship dynamics" - the definitions badly fit the tsarist Russia.

As a theory, Marxism is still a potent one. It is reflexive anti-Marxism that is quite a Grand Narrative now.

by das monde on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The enduring value of Marx is as a social critic and for his contributions to sociology.  These stand and are taught as such at least in graduate school courses in social theory, historiography, etc.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:49:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Firstly, Marxism is in no sense a theory. Aside from a vague prediction about Bad Things Will Happen to Capitalism, it doesn't make many concrete predictions about specific outcomes. In fact the fall of Capitalism isn't so much a prediction in the scientific sense, as an example of a narrative claim on Manifest Destiny - which should be enough to raise suspicions immediately.

Secondly the predictions Marxism did make, especially about social relationships in the absence of Capitalism, have turned out to be spectacularly wrong.

Thirdly Marxism has become so buried under so many contradictory off-shots and interpretations that it's no longer possible to know what Marxism actually says. There seem to be some points that Marxists more or less agree on, including the infinite plasticity of human character. But on that point Marxism has been disastrously wrong.

Finally, there's nothing 'reflexive' about trying to put together a comprehensive critique. There's nothing inviolate about Marxism. It made some useful points at the time, and it's possible to learn from them. That doesn't mean it should be treated as the final word on social relations.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly, Marxism does not meet a standard of "final world on social relations"? But which economic or social theory does? Which of those theories has the most interesting parts in predictions?

The fall of capitalism was indeed beyond-scientific prediction. Marx could have calmly stopped by capital and labour crises - and boy, wouldn't be right?

Picking up contradictory and agreement points of presumed followers is like pedantically reading a Bible by each letter - that is not really interesting. As prediction of social "experimentations" go, social theories can only test a couple of them per century - not a great basis for definite inferences.

We may label the obvious Soviet experiment as disastrously wrong, mut we may also give a decent (non-exclusive) credit to Marxism for almost a century of the social-economic-democratic evolution where almost all members of some societies got full economic-social powers and rights. That should not taken for granted - before we know it, we might find ourselves in the "tested" social systems where only rich Bourgeoisie and their servants are overwhelmingly visible, like it was 100 years ago, or it is shown in Latin-American soap operas.

by das monde on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 03:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
19th Century thinkers were forced, unwillingly, to that conclusion by the development of non-Euclidean geometries.  The 'point,' as it were, of the work on The Foundation of Mathematics was to get around that development and return to Certainty.

No one could have predicted
by ATinNM on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The labels are a misdirection. They're too crude to be useful as a description of real social relations, except in a very caricatured and superficial way.

Labels are almost always a caricature. Eric Berne understood this, and in his lecture series and in "Structures and Dynamics of Institutions and Groups" (sorry-his least fun book), he points out some limits and blind spots of the models.

There's a subset of Grand Narratives which focus on personal relationship in a more positive way, but they're rare and not usually very popular - certainly not politically.

More, please.

Eric Berne was a human treasure.


Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 01:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and the Capitalist West will fare no better.  

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 at 12:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think democracy and liberty are inherently good for individuals and realistic.  Human behavior may make them less efficient at governance but the people are not born to serve a government, the government is born to serve them.

I see the hitching of free-market ideology to the "democracy will triumph" concept as an attempt to hitch a ride on something legitimate.

There is simply no logical foundation to the "markets will solve everything" ideology.  Human liberty on the other hand has a strong logical foundation.

by paving on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 04:38:47 PM EST
If one looks at Pfaff's original article he concludes:
As Stiglitz says, the first measures in recovering from the disaster must be to reconstruct the system of corporate incentives to serve the public interest rather than private interests.
 

Prior to that, however, is to reconstruct public policy on the basis of an historical understanding of how people actually behave rather than on theories about how they might be presumed to behave in the world of abstractions.
 

This understanding is called realism, and in American public affairs during the past two decades it has been scorned. However one good thing about realism is that being realistic it eventually turns out to be right. The distinguished Protestant theologian and political philosopher Reinhold Niebhur once remarked that of all the doctrines of the Christian religion, only one is invariably self-validating: the doctrine of Original Sin.

Original sin? Eve eating apple? Validated? This is an essentially meaningless ending to a basically common sense/place article. Even Bertrand Russell, not a Christian by his own description, warned against foolishly being too optimistic about people's capacities. But foolish people who are foolishly optimistic/or conversely, pessimistic come in all varieties, including some self-described "realists".

by John Culpepper on Sat Oct 4th, 2008 at 03:21:33 PM EST


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