on rabbit holes

by emilmoller
Tue Oct 28th, 2008 at 06:15:26 AM EST

~~ Below you find some ramblings on rabbit holes I encountered when strolling along sustainability's avenue ~~


When seeking recognition for one's angle, so called 'conspiracy theories' should be shunned away from.

Efforts to connect seemingly unrelated disturbing dots stumble upon classified documents, veto's, eyebrow raising silences, revealing memoires of -former?- power players, circumstantial evidence for finding much deeper rabbit holes

Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
Neo: You could say that.
Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix?
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
(Neo nods his head.)
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.
(In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)
Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes . (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
(Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)

~ Why do official explanations for highly detrimental phenomena almost always lose credibility when one informs oneself more closely?

~ How do I situate, nay debunk, the speech delivered by Kennedy shortly before he was assasinated (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces) or for that matter http://nl.youtube.com/user/ZeitgeistMovie?

~ How with BS?

Confronted with bogus spectacles, both in the public arena and in our private lives, forced to come to terms with broken promises and tantalizing offers that never materialize, assailed by language from which all true sentiment has been thoroughly drained, we are obliged to fashion a tongue out of American speech which will rationalize our disappointments, deflect our rage, and camouflage anti-social feelings which, if they were given release, would brand us as monsters or psychopaths. Subject to this constant pressure, we concoct a language -- one third of which is bogus, one third defensive, and one third elusive, and that is how bullshit is born. It is not a blight on the American tongue, it is the American tongue -- in commerce, in politics, in daily intercourse with transient strangers, familiar colleagues, and so-called loved ones. Like any other foreign language, it cries out for translation, but there is neither grammar, syntax, nor vocabulary adequate to convey what our psychic life is obliged to suppress. We all learn how to interpret this language the way we learn the secrets of any cipher, by trying to dope out its symbols and mannerisms, divining what partial bits of intelligence we can in order to try to extrapolate deeper meanings.

This, more so than semantic hair-splitting, is what bullshit is all about and no one to my knowledge has yet tackled the subject.

(Marowitz on Frankfurt's 'On Bullshit'; full text on http://www.swans.com/library/art11/cmarow21.html)

~ How with spin?

'Wag the dog'

~ How with lack of lust or courage?

'Good night and good luck'

~ How with Foucault's Panopticum?

Foucault also compares modern society with Jeremy Bentham's "Panopticon" design for prisons (which was unrealized in its original form, but nonetheless influential): in the Panopticon, a single guard can watch over many prisoners while the guard remains unseen. The dark dungeon of pre-modernity has been replaced with the bright modern prison, but Foucault cautions that "visibility is a trap". It is through this visibility, Foucault writes, that modern society exercises its controlling systems of power and knowledge (terms which Foucault believed to be so fundamentally connected that he often combined them in a single hyphenated concept, "power-knowledge"). Increasing visibility leads to power located on an increasingly individualized level, shown by the possibility for institutions to track individuals throughout their lives. Foucault suggests that a "carceral continuum" runs through modern society, from the maximum security prison, through secure accommodation, probation, social workers, police, and teachers, to our everyday working and domestic lives. All are connected by the (witting or unwitting) supervision (surveillance, application of norms of acceptable behaviour) of some humans by others.

I would like to take this quote from the Foucault entry at Wikipedia a step further: we have internalized some deemed relevant observer and are therefore unaware we are acting as if we were observed. We experience we are free: not observed, judged, potentially liable for thoughts and actions outside what the observer deems appropriate.

This unquestionedness and unawareness makes this prison effective and even comfortable, since shared. Fitting this comfort is deeming the rabbit hole a conspiracy theory up front, the idea of a red pill threatening, the one who wants to explore the rabbit hole an outcast.

Loy's point (that repression of our basic awareness that there's no ego, no subject-object division, no duality, explains our craving for all things unsustainable) descends deeper in the hole (see a previous posting).
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After having been privileged to attend meetings with decision makers and their advisers, if not ghostwriters, it has become sheer impossible to not see the rabbit hole much deeper than is communicatable.

This is an unpleasant situation and it makes insightful why -an association with- rabbit hole exploration is so rare.

Which dove tails nicely with continuing business as usual.

It is interesting to note that on a personal note, in and after these meetings, the rabbit hole was aknowledged / illustrated as being significantly deeper than as stated officially. Or in what was seen as the outside world.

-- How deep?

Follow the true interests of those in positions of power. Not the stated ones. Be aware that sincerity only goes as far as one's self knowledge. Which is not much, as far as I can see (pun intended, but not only). 'About Schmidt' too.

This is a major obstacle in most conversations, since to the extend one truly believes one's motives,   possibilities to dig deeper, understand more, make progress, go from talk to walk, close gaps, emerge strengtened   diminish.

The case for exploration of the interior domain, which is at the root of addressing all unsustainable strivings, jitter, rumble and noise, offers a clarifying view: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M

-- What are their true interests?

Depends on the level of consciousness. That is, their center of gravity, consciousness wise. There may be spikes in time and/or seperate line of development (cognitive, physical, emotional, etc), but what's intended is a sort of base load regarding recognition of -formerly- other, as self. Or make that Self .

A sketch

  1. For someone in basic survival mode: drink, eat, huddle together, fend off dangers
  2. For someone having arranged 1: see that the clan thrives (and thus self)
  3. For someone having arranged 2: spread your wings Rambo!
  4. For someone who's been there, seen it: time for law and order, since Rambo makes a mess in most ways
  5. After having been a hog in a cog for a while, jitters happen and the individual becomes entitled to a $50mln bonus for failing big time
  6. These Rambo II's should be tamed by allowing everybody equal rights, anywhere, anytime, anyhow. All previous stages are inferior; democracy or bust!
  7. Ah, this is a wonderful line of development, where all stages are natural and unavoidable. Empower each and all on her path through these stages and you have the quickest way towards a sustainable world society
(sustainable =  equitable, environmentally benign, prosperous)

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I would like to take this quote from the Foucault entry at Wikipedia a step further: we have internalized some deemed relevant observer and are therefore unaware we are acting as if we were observed. We experience we are free: not observed, judged, potentially liable for thoughts and actions outside what the observer deems appropriate.

In writing this, were you doing so freely ? :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 at 01:13:15 PM EST
good question

like you, I won't know until I can find a plateau where I can transcend and include the perceiver/thinker

see

The case for exploration of the interior domain, which is at the root of addressing all unsustainable strivings, jitter, rumble and noise, offers a clarifying view: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M

in the mean time we don't have to be hindered in our make do efforts to reduce suffering. Imo our prime directive, until proven otherwise. A sense of suffering  is what we all share and which we can experience without intermediate concepts, institutions, interpretations, conferences, reports

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 at 03:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  You DO know and don't have to wait for some impossible plateau :-)

Re Foucault,  I prefer Chomsky, see the end of their debate:


FOUCAULT:
   If you like, I will be a little bit Nietzschean about this; in other words, it seems to me that the idea of justice in itself is an idea which in effect has been invented and put to work in different types of societies as an instrument of a certain political and economic power or as a weapon against that power. But it seems to me that, in any case, the notion of justice itself functions within a society of classes as a claim made by the oppressed class and as justification for it.

CHOMSKY:
   I don't agree with that.

FOUCAULT:
   And in a classless society, I am not sure that we would still use this notion of justice.

CHOMSKY:
   Well, here I really disagree. I think there is some sort of an absolute basis--if you press me too hard I'll be in trouble, because I can't sketch it out-ultimately residing in fundamental human qualities, in terms of which a "real" notion of justice is grounded.

   I think it's too hasty to characterise our existing systems of justice as merely systems of class oppression; I don't think that they are that. I think that they embody systems of class oppression and elements of other kinds of oppression, but they also embody a kind of groping towards the true humanly, valuable concepts of justice and decency and love and kindness and sympathy, which I think are real.

   And I think that in any future society, which will, of course, never be the perfect society, we'll have such concepts again, which we hope, will come closer to incorporating a defence of fundamental human needs, including such needs as those for solidarity and sympathy and whatever, but will probably still reflect in some manner the inequities and the elements of oppression of the existing society.

http://www.chomsky.info/debates/1971xxxx.htm

Re suffering, like F, "I will be a little bit Nietzschean about this" - a sense of suffering isn't prior to "concepts, institutions, interpretations" as with the cogito of Descartes. Nietzsche said:


When I analyze the process that is expressed in the sentence, 'I think,' I find a whole series of daring assertions, the argumentative proof of which would be difficult, perhaps impossible: for instance, that it is I who think, that there must necessarily be something that thinks, that thinking is an activity and operation on the part of a being who is thought of as a cause, that there is an 'ego,' and finally, that it is already determined what is to be designated by thinking--that I KNOW what thinking is.

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/10/18/55252/796

or that I know what suffering is.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 at 06:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, here I really disagree. I think there is some sort of an absolute basis--if you press me too hard I'll be in trouble, because I can't sketch it out-ultimately residing in fundamental human qualities, in terms of which a "real" notion of justice is grounded.

You know, when Jonathan was a bit over 2 years old he would already display a basic understanding of fairness in that he would object to me doing things I didn't let him do such as stand on the road instead or on the curb while waiting for a bus.

So there is something of an universal sense of fairness and a classless society would probably still have a need for a concept of justice.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 at 06:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes and it can be used against the culture within which it developed. CF Lenin (I think): "Capitalists will sell you the rope to hang them with." :-)

 I think Foucault is absurd to suggest that because "justice" is used in bourgeois society (but developed long before that in very different cultures) it is inevitably so contaminated that it cannot be used. He uses the excuse of lack of time to avoid answering Chomsky.

Marx was enough of a realist to know that people will not become angels even in a communist society. I'm sure he saw it more as a continuing process, so concepts like justice would be necessary.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 at 07:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are many experiments which also show that animals have an innate concept of fairness - or at least of 'reasonable' expectations given a certain situation.

There are also experiments which show that violence, cheating and exploitation happen between animals.

The opposites are innate and probably can't be reconciled - but they can be conditioned in one direction or another.

What makes bullshit so interesting is that it's a semantic substitute for personal violence which doesn't just hide the act but also confuses the victim.

Instead of stealing something by overpowering someone, the first stage of abstraction is to hire a lawyer or accountant as a 'clean' enforcer, and get the job done with threatened rather than actual violence.

The second is to create a belief in the victim that the crime is their fault.

Workers in the US, and increasingly in the UK, have to survive under a constant barrage of books like Who Moved My Cheese which are designed to make them feel personally responsible for outcomes defined and managed by corporate ideologies which are hostile to their welfare.

A classless society with a sense of innate justice would probably have to propagate fair morality using similar parables - the abstract concept of justice on its own doesn't seem to be enough to do the job.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 at 09:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
There are also experiments which show that violence, cheating and exploitation happen between animals.

observing animals, it is quite apparent what we have to master in our our own animal nature, if we are to transcend mere animality and move to higher ground.

they can absolute bastards to each other, given half a chance, and what's worse, take that default to be entirely normal, and if not morally 'right', at least reality-based.

they don't call it 'the law of the jungle' for nothing...

that's the nuts'n'bolts of it, the raw material, we get to work with, and boy is there a lot of work to be done if we ever want to make a 'civilised' world with humans in it, as humans are the most intelligent and resourceful beasts, and left to their sheer animality, all you have is a Hobbsian dystopia, or ruanda writ large...rape, kill, steal and torture.

all religions try to address this, and largely make it worse, i think because as soon as you set up a taboo, you create a counterforce that wants to break it.

animals can also 'break pattern' and do astoundingly noble things, and their unintellectuality precludes them from being ever truly diabolical.

unfortunately humans are less limited in that way, :(

If'Madness is the absence of work'(Foucault), then Sanity is the presence of play..

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 04:09:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
observing animals, it is quite apparent what we have to master in our our own animal nature, if we are to transcend mere animality and move to higher ground.

Uh, we are animals, so anything we do is part of our animal nature. The idea that there is a separation (a duality if you will) between humans and animals is one of the most dangerous that exists, part of the idiot belief that humans and "nature" are somehow separate things, as if humans are unnatural in some way or don't function within "nature".

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 05:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We're Animals 2.0. Animals are all instinct, all the time. (More or less.)

We have a potential for rational planning and for modelling fairly complex outcomes without having to live them first. Occasionally we're even smart enough to let this take priority over instinctive responses, which aren't good at the long term.

We also have persistent culture, which makes it less necessary to relearn everything about the world from scratch with each new generation.

They're limited abilities, but not trivial.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 05:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And which of those aren't present in other animals? We're much better at those things, but other animals also do them.

If you want to think of us as animals 2.0, fine, but then other animals range from 1.0 to 2.0 on a continuous scale.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 06:04:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Animals don't have persistent culture, and they particularly don't have or externalised symbolic communication tools which can maintain information for generations.

For humans, persistent culture is very much non-trivial.

We spend at least five and sometimes more than twenty years learning how we're supposed to be human and being taught what previous humans have done so that we - literally - don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Human cumulative memory reaches back thousands of years. Animal memory never lasts more than a generation.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 06:21:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Carl Sagan has a chapter of Cosmos devoted to this issue, called The Persistence of Memory. He constructs a hierarchy with DNA (chemical memory) at the bottom, followed by brain storage and oral transmission, followed by storage of information outside the body in the form of cultural artifacts culminating with writing.

To a certain extent, these are discrete steps, not a continuous gradation, so there is a sense in which 'Animals 2.0' is an appropriate metaphor.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 06:42:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Define "persistent culture". How long does it need to last?

Humans don't have a venomous bite. Does that make spiders and snakes Animals 2.0?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 06:48:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, let's go for Frans De Waal's definition of culture: "socially transmitted behaviour".

You have to have the ability to transmit behaviour between individuals. It shouldn't be surprising that animals can do this but every time it's proved by research for a particular species it makes big headlines. Maybe a lot of what passes for "instinct" is actually cultural transmission. The experience of releasing animals bred in captivity out in the wild should provide a data point.

But there is a stage beyond "transmitted behaviour" and that is "transmitted information". There's no reason to believe that some animals can't have a "concept" of the world, but can they transmit it to others in their group? That would be in the same 'Animals 2.' (maybe 'Culture 2.' is better) class as oral-transmission human cultures.

And then we get to the production of material artifacts to supplement memory - is that 'Culture 3.*' ?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 06:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
There's no reason to believe that some animals can't have a "concept" of the world, but can they transmit it to others in their group?

i believe they can, but it's anecdotal.
when i took my horse to a pro stables for 3 months during training, he was a totally good natured animal, more pet than worker.

he learned to work while there, for sure, but he also learned something else, a spirit of disrespect for humans he had never exhibited before, a flare of rebellion, a vein of crankiness.

i felt it was worth it, so i tried to compensate, but it distressed me, and i eventually brought him back home a month before the trainer thought appropriate, because i was fed up with the personality disintegration.

after a month of a lot of personal attention, grooming and treats, he regained his original mellow friendliness, as i had hoped, (and had faith in, because his early childhood, his first 2 years were as close to idyllic as could be, and that's why i chose him, not just because the breed has a rep for toughness, resilience, intelligence and long, healthy lives.)

so the early conditioning is always the bedrock, and has the most power, but animals can encourage each other to change their attitudes, at least it sure seemed that way, though i'm aware you could probably never prove it 'scientifically'!

If'Madness is the absence of work'(Foucault), then Sanity is the presence of play..

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 03:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
Define "persistent culture".

Some webs are more interesting and bigger than others.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 01:30:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Animals don't have persistent culture, and they particularly don't have or externalised symbolic communication tools which can maintain information for generations.

If true, you need to present "objective" evidence refuting several decades of research by biologists, at least, into mammal psychology --which I understand to be any type of socialability, or interaction within one species group, so classified as "family". Primatologists actively pursue politcal agenda describing what is "natural" altruism, what is "natural" competition.

Jury's still out on cold-blooded species, excepting insects for some reasons that I'm not prepared to reiterate.

If "culture" (physical artifacts) and "externalised symbolic communication tools" (i.e. language performance) are either not evident or incomprehensible to human researchers, how will humans justify and validate genetic fatalism "which can maintain information for generations"? That is, material or axiomatic determinants of individual (unique) and collective (social) of life, not death, or survival if you will.

"Information" is a generic title of "instinct," itself a stream of data subject to physical law as we understand them. Presently the human scope of possible expressions include behavioral (psychological) and pathological (viral, bacterial, unknown degenerative agent) outcomes, you know, at any given point in an individual life cycle.

I don't see how many people are given by experts rationales beyond faith to act according to a morally positive end.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 01:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i know that, you're entirely right, and i feel that as a horseman you have to see your mount as worthy of respect to have good communication.

there is a 'however' though, and that is humans have become de-natured, have often lost touch with their animality, and have repressed and bypassed so many attributes, that in other times and cultures were perfectly acceptable in polite society, but now, by some historical quirk, fall into the taboo basket.

i'm not going 'noble savage' on you, just pointing out that we have a case here for evolution being a process of loops that regress as well as progress.

some are ahead of their times, some behind, some get so far ahead they become almost numb to the fact they have a body at all! as a massage therapist, i've seen way too much of this...

those simple folk who live pretty much as they did for yonks are much more in touch with their bodies, and with them there is really much less distinction, they 'own' their bodies in much the same direct, unaffected way that animals do.

i could start on about anglo disease here, and its exploitational, entitled and exceptionalist attitudes to animals ( which pretty much decree we separate ourselves from the animal kingdom conceptually in order to reduce it to units of expendable protein-fuel or tame cuddle-toys, all the while fetishising the last polar bear/panda survivors of the habitat humans are so busy destroying etc), but that's enough bloviating from me for tonight!

you are so right about just how dangerous this cognitive schism is, i'm glad you pointed that out.

we are gloriously animal indeed, and to forget that is to invite all manner of mayhem to our door. in ommitting to celebrate that reality, we became the cancerous, maladapted, warped, weakened and disharmonic species we see abusing the planet daily, strong, in charge, perfectly 'rational', and totally demented...

there, i've probably set you up for one of your witty one-liners you like to reply to my comments with!

sorry about the mr. mustard joke i laid on you a couple of years ago. i never apologised for it, and looking back it was teh stoopid, really immature and dumb....duh. like you said 'high school'...

and..rude. my bad.

If'Madness is the absence of work'(Foucault), then Sanity is the presence of play..

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 03:55:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
they don't call it 'the law of the jungle' for nothing...

Is the jungle a very nasty place? It seems that animals provide more to each other there than take away. Do they have "tragedies of commons"? Does anyone bother to monopolize resources, push a "competitive advantage" to the maximum? Who is literally struggling there?

There seems to be a view in some quarters that in commerce there is only a ruthless `law of the jungle' to be observed.  Yet this is a much-abused metaphor, because a jungle is in fact a vivid example of an immensely complex natural system, in which the various parts survive - and thrive - as much through co-operation as competition.  If we really lived by the law of the jungle, properly understood, then we would treasure diversity in our economy, reward collaboration, build skills to manage complexity, and maintain all those subtle checks and balances that keep any economy, or eco-system, vibrant and healthy.

A video of Prince Charles speaking this is here.

by das monde on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 10:38:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A classless society with a sense of innate justice would probably have to propagate fair morality using similar parables - the abstract concept of justice on its own doesn't seem to be enough to do the job.

But Mig's point was that his son had quickly learned to generalize the concept of fairness, a very basic and useful one (to defend one's rights and needs) apparently without the need for parables. We don't just learn "the abstract concept of justice" in isolation, we learn it through noting its applications in use in a "form of life" and generalising from them - cf Wittgenstein:

" ... the term `language-game' is meant to bring into prominence the fact that the speaking of language is part of an activity, or of a form of life" (PI 23). What enables language to function and therefore must be accepted as "given" is precisely forms of life. In Wittgenstein's terms, agreement is required "not only in definitions but also (queer as this may sound) in judgments" (PI 242), and this is "not agreement in opinions but in form of life" (PI 241).

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein/#Lan

 This also reflects Chomsky's view about human creativity and the use of language (against the behaviourist view) discussed in the debate:


But when I speak of creativity, I'm not attributing to the concept the notion of value that is normal when we speak of creativity. That is, when you speak of scientific creativity, you're speaking, properly, of the achievements of a Newton. But in the context in which I have been speaking about creativity, it's a normal human act.

   I'm speaking of the kind of creativity that any child demonstrates when he's able to come to grips with a new situation: to describe it properly, react to it properly, tell one something about it, think about it in a new fashion for him and so on. I think it's appropriate to call those acts creative, but of course without thinking of those acts as being the acts of a Newton.

    In fact it may very well be true that creativity in the arts or the sciences, that which goes beyond the normal, may really involve properties of, well, I would also say of human nature, which may not exist fully developed in the mass of mankind, and may not constitute part of the normal creativity of everyday life.

http://www.chomsky.info/debates/1971xxxx.htm

While some ideas might well need parables to reinforce them, fairness is clearly important for our self-defence - as with Mig's son and his rights. But accepting it entails that we acknowledge the rights of others too. So there is less need for reinforcement of this basic "language game" in any human "form of life".

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 06:35:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I don't think we 'learn' the concept of justice at all - the fact that animals have it too suggests it's innate from our evolutionary heritage. So is abstraction.

The parables are there to reinforce and condition behaviour, not to teach it in the first place.

Parables are trite, but their social effect isn't trivial - it's interesting how many of the persuasive emails that wingers send out are framed as parables. Self-help and motivational guides rely heavily on them too. For example:

LiveLeak.com - About Socialism...

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many
others her age she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat and was
for distribution of all wealth.

She felt deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican
which she expressed openly. One day she was challenging her father on his
beliefs and his opposition to higher taxes on the rich & the ad More..dition of
more government welfare programs. Based on the lectures that she had
participated in and the occasional chat with a professor she felt that for
years her father had obviously harbored an evil, even selfish desire to keep
what he thought should be his.

The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the
truth and she indicated so to her father.

He stopped her and asked her point blank, how she was doing in school.

She answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that
it was tough to maintain. That she studied all the time, never had time to
go out and party like other people she knew.

She didn't even have time for a boyfriend and didn't really have many
college friends because of spending all her time studying. That she was
taking a more difficult curriculum.

Her father listened and then asked, "How is your good friend Mary doing?"

She replied, "Mary is barely getting by." She continued, "She barely has a
2.0 GPA," adding, "and all she takes are easy classes and she never studies.
"But Mary is so very popular on campus, college for her is a blast, she goes
to all the parties all the time and very often doesn't even show up for
classes because she is too hung over."

Her father then asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's office
and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your 4.0 GPA and give it to your friend who
only has a 2.0." He continued, "That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and
certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.

The daughter visibly shocked by her father's suggestion angrily fired back,
that wouldn't be fair! I worked really hard for mine, I did without and
Mary has done little or nothing, she played while I worked real hard!"

The father slowly smiled, winked and said, "Welcome to the Republican Party"

This is a non sequitur as an objective argument, but narrative logic is much looser - which is why you can get away with this kind of twisty rhetoric and still appear persuasive.

It also carries at least two moral payloads. One is that you don't share hard work, and the other is that socialists are irresponsible and immature party people. They're not serious, self-sacrificing and adult, and don't understand why hard work matters. (And they'll probably want a bail-out at some point.)

If you're not inclined to critical thinking, I suspect it's quite effective - or at least more effective than (say) a graph pointing out that GDP rises under Democratic presidents and falls under Republican ones. Or that you'll be $476 better off under Obama's tax plan than McCain's.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 01:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Clinical research begins here:
Piaget, J. (1932). The Moral Judgment of the Child. London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner and Co.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 at 07:09:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and crosses the political line here:
Habermas, Jürgen, The Theory of Communicative Action. translatd by Thomas McCarthy, Cambridge: Polity (published 1984-87), ISBN 0807015067 (v1)

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 at 07:15:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course he did. It's a valuable, probably essential, skill for any social animal.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 06:49:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just pointing out philosophers like Foucault seem to have forgotten what Socrates already knew which is that 'man is a social animal' (he said zoon politikon but Socrates was polis-centric).

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 07:11:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... and our regular habits of behavior and the folkviews that have emerged around them in the process of institutionalizing them provides an inescapable element of our understanding of the world.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhh nnnnnnnnnooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapped in society!

... something like that?

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 at 08:19:20 PM EST

Well, emilmoller, we helped you get a bit more "traction" with this diary :-) I know it can be frustrating to get few comments; compared with some earlier ones it's a positive "surge" :-) I hope you don't think we took it off-track.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Oct 29th, 2008 at 11:40:04 AM EST
Thanks for your consideration Ted.

'Traction' is not the first that comes to mind.

Interesting to note that you speak of 'we'. As if posters who responded here have important common  characteristics.

In previous postings, here and elsewhere I did get the impression there were a sort of band of posters scannen the blog, spotting rich grounds (privileged ones / victims) to, ehh,  play.

To address your remark regarding track: I don't see how the postings relate to the point I tried to raise.

Which is: going from tabloid to esoteric, how do make progress in awareness, regarding issues commonly experienced as pressing by multitudes at the receiving end of business as usual (greed, ignorance, malice)

And after awareness: how do we operationalize the goodwill that emerges when we become aware?

See also http://solveclimate.com/blog/20081027/t-boone-pickens-selling-some-wind-turbines#comment-572

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 at 09:21:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
'Traction' is not the first that comes to mind.

It's just a jokey reference to the ubiquity of the word in the endless US election coverage.

Interesting to note that you speak of 'we'. As if posters who responded here have important common  characteristics.

As far as I'm concerned, they just have in common that they contributed to the discussion here.


In previous postings, here and elsewhere I did get the impression there were a sort of band of posters scannen the blog, spotting rich grounds (privileged ones / victims) to, ehh,  play.

Or take up issues which they find interesting/important, which may not be seen as central by the author of the diary and, as in any group, some are more active in contributing than others.


To address your remark regarding track: I don't see how the postings relate to the point I tried to raise.

Which is: going from tabloid to esoteric, [other way round ?]  how do make progress in awareness, regarding issues commonly experienced as pressing by multitudes at the receiving end of business as usual (greed, ignorance, malice)

And after awareness: how do we operationalize the goodwill that emerges when we become aware?

Speaking just for myself, I responded to your reference to Foucault, which seemed quite central to your approach, given the extensive quotation and implicit acceptance of his approach:

I would like to take this quote from the Foucault entry at Wikipedia a step further ...

I said that I preferred Chomsky's general approach and illustrated the difference by reference to their debate. As it happened the discussion here then focused on the particular issue about justice, rather than the general difference between their approaches.

In the latter case I think Chomsy provides a very clear example of how to answer your general question, i.e. there is no mystery about it, one develops awareness in a variety of ways, which includes writing books and articles, and in Chomsky's case giving many, very well attended talks, which address issues which have a major impact on people's lives, and present readily understandable critiques of misleading media coverage. Here is Chomsky's own discussion of the contrast between his own approach and that of Foucault:


Phetland suggests starting with Foucault --- who, as I've written repeatedly, is somewhat apart from the others,[Derrida, Lacan, Lyotard, Kristeva, etc.]  for two reasons: I find at least some of what he writes intelligible, though generally not very interesting; second, he was not personally disengaged and did not restrict himself to interactions with others within the same highly privileged elite circles.

Phetland then does exactly what I requested: he gives some illustrations of why he thinks Foucault's work is important. That's exactly the right way to proceed, and I think it helps understand why I take such a "dismissive" attitude towards all of this --- in fact, pay no attention to it.

What Phetland describes, accurately I'm sure, seems to me unimportant, because everyone always knew it --- apart from details of social and intellectual history, and about these, I'd suggest caution...

 But let's put aside the other historical work, and turn to the "theoretical constructs" and the explanations: that there has been "a great change from harsh mechanisms of repression to more subtle mechanisms by which people come to do" what the powerful want, even enthusiastically. That's true enough, in fact, utter truism. If that's a "theory," then all the criticisms of me are wrong: I have a "theory" too, since I've been saying exactly that for years, and also giving the reasons and historical background, but without describing it as a theory (because it merits no such term), and without obfuscatory rhetoric (because it's so simple-minded), and without claiming that it is new (because it's a truism). It's been fully recognized for a long time that as the power to control and coerce has declined, it's more necessary to resort to what practitioners in the PR industry early in this century -- who understood all of this well -- called "controlling the public mind." The reasons, as observed by Hume in the 18th century, are that "the implicit submission with which men resign their own sentiments and passions to those of their rulers" relies ultimately on control of opinion and attitudes. Why these truisms should suddenly become "a theory" or "philosophy," others will have to explain; Hume would have laughed.

http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/chomsky-on-postmodernism.html

Therefore Chomsky does not feel the need to engage in "theoretical" debate but instead acts as a public intellectual, publishing very accessible work which does raise many people's awareness (as it did for me years ago, and he continues to do so) and involves critiques of the mainstream media :


Phetland also found it "particularly puzzling" that I am so "curtly dismissive" of these intellectual circles while I spend a lot of time "exposing the posturing and obfuscation of the New York Times." So "why not give these guys the same treatment." Fair question. There are also simple answers. What appears in the work I do address (NYT, journals of opinion, much of scholarship, etc.) is simply written in intelligible prose and has a great impact on the world, establishing the doctrinal framework within which thought and expression are supposed to be contained, [cf. the criticism of the dominant economic ideology here] and largely are, in successful doctrinal systems such as ours. That has a huge impact on what happens to suffering people throughout the world, the ones who concern me, as distinct from those who live in the world that Lodge depicts (accurately, I think)[a reference to David Lodge's novels about academia, e.g. "Small World": "The unbridled greed, pettiness, buffoonery and intellectual gobbledegook in the world of higher scholarship are the topics of this thorough and thoroughly funny "roman à English department". It's interesting for a couple of reasons, aside from its humour and lampoonery: it's an insider's view of things--always the best kind."] So this work should be dealt with seriously, at least if one cares about ordinary people and their problems. The work to which Phetland refers has none of these characteristics, as far as I'm aware. It certainly has none of the impact, since it is addressed only to other intellectuals in the same circles.

Ibid.

On what we should do to raise awareness (getting involved tends to raise one's own awareness):

Question from Arthur Buonamia: What can we as citizens do to influence a foreign policy change that is humane, and just.
...
Noam Chomsky: On the first question, we should bear in mind that we are extremely privileged. We live in a very free, very democratic society. Unlike many other places in the world, we can act and speak in all sorts of ways without fear of state punishment and retribution. That leaves all kinds of avenues open to us, from meetings with neighbors or in a church or whatever organization you're in to publication to organization to demonstrations to political action to there's just every means available. It can be effective. It has been in the past and it can be now. There is no shortage of means, if there's a shortage, it's of willingness to use them. They're available.

http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskychat.html



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 31st, 2008 at 09:01:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Ted, again thanks for your dedicated reply.

Chomsky's angle seems more attractive to me as Foucoult's, although I must admit an awareness of my ignorance increases as I read and think on. But since Socrates remarked this would be a sign of wisdom, that should be a blessing.

Together with this increasing awareness of my ignorance, there's an increase in my sensitivity to the  depth of rabbit holes. The latter is fed by what seem to be defence mechanisms of business as usual.

As Chomsky states:

there's no shortage of means; if there's a shortage, it's of willingness to use them. They're available.

When continuing asking the question 'who benefits' (or 'follow the money') what seemed coincidental, stand alone, accidental, random increasingly looses this quality.

What now? Is this system transparent to Chomsky; does he have access to data that connect all the dots?

If so: how does he value so called 'conspiracy theories'? Is 'Zeitgeist' a conspiracy theory?

Well, you can see I'm at a loss to determine, or even make an approximation of, the depth of the rabbit hole.

And until I do and many others do, I have the uncomfortable feeling I'm dishing up stories that have little or no bearing on real drivers of events.

And will remain ineffective in addressing sources of suffering.

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Fri Oct 31st, 2008 at 11:33:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What now? Is this system transparent to Chomsky; does he have access to data that connect all the dots?

If so: how does he value so called 'conspiracy theories'? Is 'Zeitgeist' a conspiracy theory?

Chomsky doesn't have much time for conspiracy theories:


ZNet Sustianer: This begs the question: if 9/11 was an inside job, then what's to say that Bush Et Al., if cornered or not, wouldn't resort to another more heinous attack of grander proportions in the age of nuclear terrorism ­ which by its very nature would petrify populations the world over, leading citizens to cower under the Bush umbrella of power.

Noam Chomsky: Wrong question, in my opinion. They were carrying out far more serious crimes, against Americans as well, before 9/11 -- crimes that literally threaten human survival. They may well resort to further crimes if activists here prefer not to deal with them and to focus their attention on arcane and dubious theories about 9/11.

http://www.rense.com/general74/dismiss.htm

He prefers what he calls "institutional analysis" and says that institutions do what you would expect them to do to protect and further their interests, and if you research what they say, they are often quite open about what they do. But sometimes this requires reading lots of material which doesn't get much attention from the media, nor, regrettably, from many academics.


ZNet Sustainer: A question that arises for me is that regardless of this issue, how do I as an activist prevent myself from getting distracted by such things as conspiracy theories instead of focusing on the bigger picture of the institutional analysis of private profit over people?

Noam Chomsky: I think this reaches the heart of the matter. One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis.

ibid.

While his critics accuse him of conspiracy theory, Chomsky states that his arguments are "institutional analysis." "If I point out that General Motors tries to maximise profits and market share, that's not a conspiracy theory, it's an institutional analysis ... that's precisely the sense in which we [Herman and Chomsky] are talking about the media "

In dozens of books, he has meticulously documented the historical development and specific abuses that have led to the bastardized corporate-controlled democracy Americans currently endure. [1], [2]

In the book, Understanding Power (ISBN 1565847032), "a series of enlightening and wide-ranging discussions, Chomsky radically reinterprets the events of the past three decades... And as he elucidates the connection between America's imperialistic foreign policy and social inequalities at home, Chomsky also discerns the necessary steps to take toward social change. With an eye to political activism and the media's role in popular struggle, as well as U.S. foreign and domestic policy." [3]

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Noam_Chomsky

It's "transparent" if you do enough work, and Chomsky does an enormous amount and retains an amazing amount of it - cf. interviews and discussions with him. If anyone can be said to join the dots about what's really going on it's Chomsky, helped, as he would be the first to point out, by an army of correspondents sending him documentation of various kinds.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 31st, 2008 at 01:18:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Delving into 9/11 could be a distraction. That's exactly the dilemma: is it what the official version tells us and is it 'just' a matter of hard work going through the accessable files. To find it's a sort of institutional collateral damage? Without more layers of interests behind it, happy with us buying this smoke screen. And with more smoke screens as back up.

And if this could ever be concluded, how about other phenomena we are not even aware of could be disturbingly different from the official / generally accepted 'truth'? As appears in memoires or when secret files are opened after 50 years?

Look at Greenspan's truth, which coincided for decades with those of academia, business schools, the rich and famous. Forming identities of people striving to participate in the good life. Forming the Procrustus bed countries were measured with and treated according to? How much suffering was induced with the best of intentions? Or not so good intentions? This turns out to be an, ehh, mistake? Newspeak anyone?

I realize that when reality overwhelms one's perceptional capacities, one tends to gyrate towards explanations, which turn out to be inadequate after these capacities have increased.

How much digging should one perform before painful, but reassuring clarity can be expected to be found? I'm afraid that increasing knowledge is like inflating a balloon, where contact with the unknown (outside the balloon) increases with knowledge (inside the balloon).

I would appreciate an informed and convincing debunking of, lets say 'Zeitgeist'. When I see this video, I feel there's more truth in it than I ever expected, but miss the confidence Chomsky seems to have that it just takes delving deeper to find relatively simple mechanisms.

No network of people explicitly desinterested in the suffering they induce in striving to fulfill their agenda.

This line of thinking too could be seen as another smoke screen, another layer of defense.

Ted, I don't want to take up too much of your time and solve these issues for me. Thanks for your patience.

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Fri Oct 31st, 2008 at 05:44:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Knowledge isn't necessarily like a ballon; it isn't just piling up discrete facts. In some areas, particularly science, some ideas can simplify and clarify relationships between a great many things, e.g. Newton and gravity.


Ted, I don't want to take up too much of your time and solve these issues for me. Thanks for your patience.

OK, I'm done :-) - you might find some answers if you read Chomsky - I did. There's a lot of his stuff online.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 31st, 2008 at 06:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed that certain insights condense data and deflate the balloon. But I see that per saldo that these condensation kernels are insufficient to stop the inflatory process.

This process would be stopped or reversed when one would know where to find the insights fitting with where one's at. For a tribal oriented person, this will be different from someone from an employee at Ford.

Ideally speaking, in an effort to deflate the balloon and thus anxiety and related, one should be able to find the proper condensation kernels.

I agree that for posters here Chomsky is a good choice. But for 99% of people I meet, read from and about and who are in key positions of decision making regarding our planet it would not be a good choice. Since their world view doesn't digest it. Too time consuming, too conflicting with their social embedding, self image, comfort zone - career path.

But even when reading Chomsky, posters here and all others should situate his/their kernels. As time and culturally determined perspectives among many others, as chemical-electrical firing patterns above the neck, as defense patterns against fear of death, as manifestations of the -erroneous- subject - object division.

I must admit I'm begging the question here. Imo there are shortcuts, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M  But efforts to bring these across so far have run aground, due to the overriding reliance on our  intellect here and everywhere.

To me the credit and economic debacle are manifestations of this reliance. As are all manifestations of injustice, environmental degradation.

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Sat Nov 1st, 2008 at 04:21:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cant't let this pass 

Agreed that certain insights condense data and deflate the balloon. But I see that per saldo that these condensation kernels are insufficient to stop the inflatory process.

Obviously it's not a case of either/or - in SOME fields there is a great deal of simplification as theory is developed. This is different from, say, theology, which often consists of ever more complex attempts to explain away contradictions in the sacred texts.

This process would be stopped or reversed when one would know where to find the insights fitting with where one's at. For a tribal oriented person, this will be different from someone from an employee at Ford.

Are you really arguing for cultural and cognitive relativism ? In the latter case it would seem to undermine any claims you make, cf.


... they take a detached stance and simply report the epistemic customs and practices of different cultures, eschewing any impulse to endorse or criticize them. And this amounts, in Putnam's words, to "mental suicide". For, while particular norms of rationality will be entrenched within a particular culture, reason has an inalienable critical or transcendent function which can be used to criticize existing epistemic norms. Relativism can thus be accused of encouraging a certain kind of intellectual passivity.
...
Their philosophical relativism may incline them towards being more open-minded and tolerant than dyed-in-the-wool absolutists and objectivists. But they cannot avoid adopting specific standpoints, choosing between theories, and endorsing particular beliefs and values. At bottom, the debate over relativism is about whether it is possible for relativists to make these commitments consistently and sincerely.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/cog-rel.htm#SH5b

Ideally speaking, in an effort to deflate the balloon and thus anxiety and related, one should be able to find the proper condensation kernels.


What is meant by "proper" here ? Merely acceptable within a particular culture ?


I agree that for posters here Chomsky is a good choice. But for 99% of people I meet, read from and about and who are in key positions of decision making regarding our planet it would not be a good choice. Since their world view doesn't digest it. Too time consuming, too conflicting with their social embedding, self image, comfort zone - career path.

That's their loss, but, for a left-wing academic, Chomsy does have a massive general audience, e.g. :


"Funny" might not be the first word that springs to mind on mention of Noam Chomsky - but many of the best political comics are well aware of his work. The late, great comedian Bill Hicks even described himself as "Chomsky with dick jokes".

In case you're one of the few Guardian readers unacquainted with his workd, Noam Chomsky is not a comedian, but a 79-year-old anarchist/linguistics pioneer who has spent most of his professional life criticising the power structures of his native US and who is, according to a recent readers' poll in Prospect magazine, the world's foremost living intellectual.

But is Chomsky actually funny himself? Last year I attended an evening speech he gave in the town of Windsor on the US-Canada border. Although the lecture itself was dry and detailed, it struck me during the Q&A that Chomsky was successful not only at conveying his radical political message but also at raising belly laughs from his audience with dark-laced, insightful humour about his politics.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2008/jan/21/chomskycracksmeup


But even when reading Chomsky, posters here and all others should situate his/their kernels. As time and culturally determined perspectives among many others, as chemical-electrical firing patterns above the neck, as defense patterns against fear of death, as manifestations of the -erroneous- subject - object division.

"Culturally determined" overstates it - if anyone is a radical critic of their own culture it is Chomsky, he is not "determined" by it. If he were, presumably the 99% you refer to above would have less problems with his work. Of course, he is culturally SITUATED and deals with problems of his time and with an emphasis on US politics, but "situated" is very different from "determined",  cf. ref to relativism above.

How is his work a "manifestation of the erroneous subject-object distinstion" ?


I must admit I'm begging the question here. Imo there are shortcuts, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M  But efforts to bring these across so far have run aground, due to the overriding reliance on our  intellect here and everywhere.

To me the credit and economic debacle are manifestations of this reliance. As are all manifestations of injustice, environmental degradation.

The economic debacle had nothing to do with an "overriding reliance on intellect"; it came from a general FAILURE to subject a theory to rigorous intellectual examination - something which only a small number of people did in the years before the debacle. Unfortunately they were ignored by influential people who had excessive reespect for Greenspan's OPINION and he himself has admitted to an unfounded TRUST in the financial institutions not to engage in practices which could endanger their own existence.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 at 08:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted Welch:
The economic debacle had nothing to do with an "overriding reliance on intellect"; it came from a general FAILURE to subject a theory to rigorous intellectual examination - something which only a small number of people did in the years before the debacle.

I would say the failure lay not so much in not questioning the theory, but rather in not questioning the complete bollocks assumptions that underpinned the theory - or maybe that's what you mean....

Since the assumptions were chosen to lead to outcomes which suited those funding the development of the theory, and the use of other assumptions was not a good career move, then the result was inevitable.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 at 10:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Glad you came back, emilmoller, and brought so much  interesting material to comment about.  It will take time to view and take notes, so I will try to follow up this weekend.  

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 at 03:05:00 PM EST
Thanks metavision.

What drives you to spend so much time and attention to these matters?

What do think of http://www.trecers.net/fullplan.html  on the one hand and http://solveclimate.com/blog/20081027/t-boone-pickens-selling-some-wind-turbines#comment-572  & http://solveclimate.com/blog/20081001/its-oil-shale-stupid#comment-390 on the other?

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Fri Oct 31st, 2008 at 11:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it useful to deploy Robert Pirsig's

Metaphysics of Quality

I think that at the bottom of the rabbit hole is what we might think of as a "pre-intellectual awareness" and that it is upon this that our unthinking judgements as to Quality, Truth, Value, Beauty and so on are based.

None of these facets of a non-dual Reality are definable - there is no absolute basis....


CHOMSKY:
   Well, here I really disagree. I think there is some sort of an absolute basis--if you press me too hard I'll be in trouble, because I can't sketch it out-ultimately residing in fundamental human qualities, in terms of which a "real" notion of justice is grounded.

   I think it's too hasty to characterise our existing systems of justice as merely systems of class oppression; I don't think that they are that. I think that they embody systems of class oppression and elements of other kinds of oppression, but they also embody a kind of groping towards the true humanly, valuable concepts of justice and decency and love and kindness and sympathy, which I think are real.

.... because everything is definable only in relative terms.

As the physicist John A Wheeler said:

"Reality is defined by the questions that you put to it".

Loy's point (that repression of our basic awareness that there's no ego, no subject-object division, no duality, explains our craving for all things unsustainable) descends deeper in the hole (see a previous posting).

This is exactly where Pirsig found his Metaphysics, although his analogy was not a descent into a rabbit hole but a climb into the rarefied atmosphere of mountainous summits of abstractions and intellect.

Moreover, I believe that in distinguishing a Metaphysics of Quality from a post-Socrates "Subject/Object Metaphysics" he saw the nature of both the gains and the losses we have achieved from taking the path of Reason we embarked upon 2,000 years ago


And now he began to see for the first time the unbelievable magnitude of what man, when he gained power to understand and rule the world in terms of dialectic truths, had lost.

He had built empires of scientific capability to manipulate the phenomena of nature into enormous manifestations of his own dreams of power and wealth-but for this he had exchanged an empire of understanding of equal magnitude: an understanding of what it is to be a part of the world, and not an enemy of it.

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

So I think that we can identify Greenspan's mistaken Truths only through questioning his assumptions, and of course, as you imply, the nature of the web of rhetoric with which he imprisoned us all.

Look at Greenspan's truth, which coincided for decades with those of academia, business schools, the rich and famous. Forming identities of people striving to participate in the good life. Forming the Procrustus bed countries were measured with and treated according to? How much suffering was induced with the best of intentions? Or not so good intentions? This turns out to be an, ehh, mistake? Newspeak anyone?

For sure we have all been prisoners of the NewSpeak rhetoric used by Greenspan and the MSM. When we define "Public" as State; "Private" as "Corporate"; "Money as "Debt" and "Wealth" as "a claim over wealth issued ex nihilo by a Bank" then we should not be surprised at the results we get.

In relation to Foucault and the "Panopticum" I think that the fact that a prison or a Society has a capability for surveillance built into it is very different from saying that this capability may feasibly be used.

By way of example, in my days as Compliance Director at the International Petroleum Exchange, the first thing I did was have video surveillance and microphones installed in the trading pits, and all of the hundreds of telephones taped.

This was over the brokers' dead bodies of course.

But within a week they realised that this was the best quality control mechanism they could have - it got rid of trading disputes overnight - and 99% of the system use was not by Big Brother (me) but by them.

I was already aware in installing it that in terms of surveillance it was no use at all to me or anyone else to monitor real time.

This was because without knowledge of the customer orders being executed I had no context.  So my methodology was always ("Follow the Money") to start with the accounts of traders who were entirely too consistently profitable, work back to find out exactly whose orders they were abusing, and then present the video tapes merely as audit trail evidence.

What I am getting to here is that there is infinitely too much data around for a genuine surveillance society, and that actually monitoring even one individual requires not just one, but many individuals, and even then they will need the context for the surveillance to mke sense of it.

So when asked to choose between Conspiracy and Cock-Up I go for the latter, every time.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Oct 31st, 2008 at 08:25:07 PM EST
Chris, thanks for your comment.

Interesting to see that Chomsky and Pirsig both refer to some common ground. Imo all who keep asking the right questions long enough will arrive here.

I would like to refer to the link supplied some times before, since it shows well an appropriate point here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M

To me this is an excellent start to operationalize a surge for the common good. Aka access to our common ground for all children of all species of all times.

A surge as set forth by Gore: 100% clean energy within 10 years. My research indicates this can be done, given  a will to do so.

Re Panopticum: the point is that you don't need effort to control people when they internalize the control. Cherish it.

This concept is an excellent opportunity for anyone with an interest in tossing people around. Marketeers, politicians, anyone who isn't / can't be completely honest with himself and you.

Who resists these temptations?

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Sat Nov 1st, 2008 at 05:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Type ((*youtube 9wX_W1BB_0M)) without the asterisk.

See the New User Guide.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 1st, 2008 at 05:27:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks Migeru
by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Sat Nov 1st, 2008 at 07:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the video, too :-)

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 1st, 2008 at 08:14:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
emilmoller:

Re Panopticum: the point is that you don't need effort to control people when they internalize the control. Cherish it.

This concept is an excellent opportunity for anyone with an interest in tossing people around. Marketeers, politicians, anyone who isn't / can't be completely honest with himself and you.

Who resists these temptations?

very good, emil!

the only people who can resist these temptations are those who have evidence in their own lives that believing in goodness, and aspiring towards it, will eventually bring you closer to what you dream, than grabbing what you can from life with no thought for your neighbour.

too many people learn this too late, the hard way.

after a long life of abusing one's matrix, it matters little to turn around at the end, when you are feeble, the damage is done...

it can be learned very early, if the child's innate goodness is not warped by the world around, and it is given enough examples of positive feedback to internalise, enabling sovereignty, empowering the person to trust in truth, even when it seems to be counter-intuitive.

eventually you connect the dots, in my case it took most of my life to expunge the residue from arbitrary authoritarianism, and the learned helplessness it engenders.

my children fared much better, because i put a lot of energy in sheltering them from the type of zero-sum thinking and cognitive dissonance i was exposed to as a child, consequently their integrity is natural, not affected as a virtue.

childhood psychology and wise education, not just instruction, especially in emotional intelligence, would be the fastest, most energy-efficient solution to all the grief in the human condition, i have as-close-to-absolute-as-can-be faith in that.

israeli and palestinian children are not born despising 'the other', they are taught to by ignorant adults, mired in the hatreds of the past.

given just two generations of appropriate education, i bet even that hoariest of enmities could be dissolved.

i saw 'zeitgeist', and enjoyed it, in spite of the slight 'history channel' vibe and slightly gaudy, over-the-top colours and presentation, the message of myths being recursive was a profound one.

well worth seeing, imo...up there with 'the corporation' and 'masters of money'.

welcome back, nice to see you diarying again!

If'Madness is the absence of work'(Foucault), then Sanity is the presence of play..

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Nov 1st, 2008 at 04:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
specializing in sculling nowadays ;-)

an elegant way of getting around with small open sail boats

and a good example how to celebrate -slow- life

http://www.drascombe.nl/dorestadraid_2008.htm  (movie down, lower left)

by emilmoller (emil@beyondthewalls.eu) on Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 at 11:54:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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