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Can I haz my flying carz now?

by Colman Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 02:44:21 AM EST

From the Guardian:

Nuclear power plants smaller than a garden shed and able to power 20,000 homes will be on sale within five years, say scientists at Los Alamos, the US government laboratory which developed the first atomic bomb.

The miniature reactors will be factory-sealed, contain no weapons-grade material, have no moving parts and will be nearly impossible to steal because they will be encased in concrete and buried underground. [...]

The company plans to set up three factories to produce 4,000 plants between 2013 and 2023. 'We already have a pipeline for 100 reactors, and we are taking our time to tool up to mass-produce this reactor.' [...]

The reactors, only a few metres in diameter, will be delivered on the back of a lorry to be buried underground. They must be refuelled every 7 to 10 years. Because the reactor is based on a 50-year-old design that has proved safe for students to use, few countries are expected to object to plants on their territory. An application to build the plants will be submitted to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission next year.

'You could never have a Chernobyl-type event - there are no moving parts,' said Deal. 'You would need nation-state resources in order to enrich our uranium. Temperature-wise it's too hot to handle. It would be like stealing a barbecue with your bare hands.'

It's just like being in an old sci-fi novel.


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im sure this is all of Bush's final plan to give his mate Osama the materials for a dirty bomb, so he will be able to be proved right in time for the election after next, and the republicans get back in to fight the war on terror.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 02:58:10 AM EST
and I want my flying car too (and my five day weekend because robots were going to do all of the work)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 02:59:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It must have a very negative effect on your psyche, all this cynicism.

At last a positive development, and all you can do is sneer.

Obviously this Sunday newspaper report shows that all our problems are solved, and I personally can say that I feel relieved and grateful.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 03:04:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well somebody has to do the cynicism to counteract the endless positive and happy stories we see on this site.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 03:27:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really can't see how this would fly. Small scale decentralised generation will always be far more expensive than generation of the large scale centralised variety.Do observe how they've not given this thing a pricetag.

The only place where this thing makes sense is on small islands and South Pole research bases.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 03:47:33 AM EST
I thought you'd be happy!

No, it's insane on a number of levels, except for very specialised uses.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 03:55:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, they have put a price tag on it 50 million dollars a pop, good for 20,000 homes. $2500 a home, so $250 a year.

This may make economic sense where there is limited infrastructure, like in India and China.

I would not be the least bit surprised if these little buggers are part of a plan to even up the balance of trade with these two countries.

An output of 100 reactor yields $5 billion in foreign exchange annually.

This just seems extremely dangerous.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 12:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Somehow seemed appropriate... at least to me.

by Magnifico on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 03:48:09 AM EST
What does the tobacconist actually say in Hungarian that causes the tourist to hit him?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 05:10:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 05:53:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gaff1229's deviantART Journal
Hi, I'm Hungarian native speaker. That sentence means nothing in Hungarian, it's a simple flummery.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 05:55:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But, to my ears, it sounds Slovakian. In fact whom you quote continued:

But it is very interesting, that the word "stravenka" has a real meaning in Slovak language, it means something like "meal ticket" (used in schools).


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 at 05:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sf-future


"The future is now, and we are not impressed," writes Daniel H. Wilson, a somewhat miffed scientist. "Where are the ray guns, the flying cars, and the hoverboards that we expected?" Wilson is voicing the frustrations of several generations who feel cheated by the unfulfilled promises of technology.

During the mid-20th century, optimism about the future was whipped into frothy peaks. The atom was harnessed, there would be better living through chemicals, Tomorrowland was at hand, space travel was becoming routine. We said, "I do" at the altar of science and were then seemingly left jilted. In the 21st century, we still don't have robot servants, teleportation or even a decent pair of x-ray specs. We are living more like The Flintstones than The Jetsons.

This really ticks off Wilson, who holds a doctorate degree in robotics from Carnegie Mellon University and is also the author of How To Survive a Robot Uprising. Dr. Wilson wants his jetpack and he has written a humorous equivalent of a techno-tantrum. Where's My Jetpack is a science geek's wish list of cool gadgets and brainy devices that were supposed to be delivered courtesy of technology, but somehow never arrived.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/228770/wheres_my_jetpack_a_guide_to_the_amazing.html?cat=15



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 04:54:31 AM EST
Flying cars, hoverboards, and jet packs are all possible.  It will only take someone or someones to throw the hundreds of millions required develop them.  

And then never see any of their money back.

And who don't mind being on the receiving end of lots and lots of liability lawsuits.

Apparently Dr. Wilson, and other like him, forget the noun in the phrase "science fiction" was "fiction" and the modifying adjective was "science."

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 10:53:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Googling around it seems these things are good for about 25MW and would be most useful for offgrid communities (very remote or small islands say) or industrial installations.

Whilst I'm generally well disposed towards nuclear as a technology I have to say that this system sounds like it will be a perfect fit for powering oil shale extraction, which wouldn't be a positive move.

Regards
Luke

-- #include witty_sig.h

by silburnl on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 06:42:12 AM EST
have the time to do a diary on this? 3.4% PDW fuel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 07:20:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why?

The (Shell) shale technology requires electricity, not hot steam. And you'll get far cheaper electricity from a full sized reactor than from one of these cute little things.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 10:56:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Will it still work out cheaper when you take into account transmission losses? and is cheapness necessarily the major factor, with remote rural communities, its all too easy to lose power in bad weather.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:15:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Transmission losses are always violently overestimated in the public debate and are usually under 5 %. I've never ever heard of them topping 10 %.

When it comes to cheapness, the problem is that it's not cheap, it's pricy per kWh.

If you want a back-up for the times the power goes out you want something with really low capital costs, and high fuel costs is not a problem as it will run so few hours every year. All in all, get yourself a diesel generator.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
then its just a question of how to unfreeze the diesel.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:44:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Firstly I mispoke on the shale thing. I was thinking of the steam-based processes that oil sands use. Also it was a first reaction based on reading the sales pitch rather than a worked up solution - but let's put some numbers to it. I don't think it's as cut and dried as you suppose.

First puzzle is the price however - according to NextBigFuture these things are rated at 70 MW thermal (dropping to 25 MW electrical) which means that Hyperion seems to be pitching these things at ~$1/W of rated electrical output. Once you factor in the shorter lifecycle that seems somewhat more expensive than what a full scale nuke would cost, but not outrageously so. What am I missing here?

WRT capacity/scale issues - wikipedia tells me that oil sands post-processing uses ~1.25GJ in energy to produce a barrel of oil, which is equivalent to ~0.35MWh. One of these units will produce (70 * 24) 1680 MWh per day of thermal energy, which translates to 4800 barrel/day/unit. Call it 4000 barrel/day to account for capacity factors. The 2006 production average of 1.25 million barrel/day would therefore require a fleet of about 300 of these units (for a total price tag of $7.5 billion over a decade or so - which seems eminently doable by the oil majors I would say).

Future expansion would require more of course.

AFAICS the two principal advantages of the nuke battery over a centralised conventional nuclear power solution are (i) timeliness and (ii) co-location efficiencies.

Timeliness - the first of these nuke battery things could be on site in 3-4 years if Hyperion are to believed. Which means that they will be approaching the end of their life at about the time that Lac Cardinal is projected to come online in 2017. Thus, if central generation proved to be a better solution then a nuke battery fleet could still be used as a bridging technology until the central solution comes on line. In which case it would be displacing NatGas as the energy source for steam formation, which Hyperion claims a 70% efficiency advantage over (dunno if that is includes NatGas infrastructure costs however).

Co-location - oil sands require steam which can be produced directly by the thermal output of a colocated Hyperion battery farm rather than piping in electricity (or NatGas) produced offsite in order to manufacture steam. That's going to give you something in the order of a 50% efficiency headstart over an offsite energy source. This won't work for Shell's oil shale process of course.

Finally the small size and short lifecycle of these things, whilst a fairly significant handicap in terms of the scale/capacity issues that dominate the electrical generating biz, could paradoxically confer a valuable flexibility premium for the oil biz - which is famously gunshy about investing in long-term fixed infrastructure for unconventional resources. Being able to flex your battery fleet up and down on a year by year basis or redeploy your battery fleet as fields peak and decline (there's nothing that says these things have to be buried) is likely to be something that the oil biz will be very keen on.

Regards
Luke

-- #include witty_sig.h

by silburnl on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 08:18:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't trust their cost estimates at all. Hell, even the nuclear industry doesn't seem to have any idea what a full scale nuke will cost, so the notion that anyone could wager a guess what these things which have never been built before will cost... Let's just say I doubt that these are hard numbers.

Oil sands is a completely different beast than oil shale, and these things could be useful there. But I'd imagine that you'd need a lot more than a few 10's of MW's to power an oil sand operation. Probably 100's of MW's (I've recently visisted a paper mill which needs 350 MW power and 200 MW process heat), and then the pebble bed reactors are probably a better idea than fleets of nuclear batteries, if they ever get off the ground.

Possibly even full scale reactors might be the preferred choice here, they don't have to be 1000+ MW you know. And I don't think we should discount the fact that any plant built by AECL will have a certain attraction to local politicians.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 09:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly the price needs to be proven, but these things aren't completely new; anything but - the basic approach is positively ancient for a nuclear technology, although presumably there are sufficient cunning new bits to warrant their patent.

The question becomes whether Hyperion (and any other licensees) can meet the volume/timescale ramp up they are talking about in the press release and still hit their price point. Another advantage small unit size of each battery module confers is that this claim can be empirically tested with the sort budgets and time horizons that conventional corporate organisations are comfortable working - rather than requiring a govt get involved and take a multi-decade punt on the technology working out.

Regards
Luke

-- #include witty_sig.h

by silburnl on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 01:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anybody else think burying active nuclear material under some idiot's, loon's, mental reject's, or Evangelical's backyard a massively stupid idea?

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere
by ATinNM on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:01:19 AM EST
Hey I think burying it under your or my Backyard is a bad idea, I may be ok, but Im not convinced by my Neighbours.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:04:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd love to take care of your encased spent fuel and put it in my cellar. For a small fee.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:07:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Be OK until some doofus bought your house and, with all the understanding of the average doofus, started banging on the containment with a hammer.

The First Corollary of Murphy's Law as applied to Product Safety:

The gahdamnest stupidest thing a customer can do is the first thing they will do.

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's like the competition to provide symbols to keep people in the far future away from nuclear waste repositories.

Has the cinema taught us nothing about Archaeologists?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:19:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Gosh.  I wonder what happens if I do this?"

"oops"



Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:26:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Think about the fun if they put them in places with low grade natural uranium deposits like Tampa, Florida, or near the natural reactors in West Africa.

I doubt that you could take an entire deposit supercritical so it would explode, but I think that bringing it to critical would be quite a show in and of its own.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 12:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is what happens when you let people from New Mexico start making decisions, it must be all the uranium out there in the water.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 12:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But remember, they're Government Approved.
by NvDem (Ed@igreno.com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 10:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you mean they fall in the same category as Guantanamo.

Sounds promising.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 08:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't worry, I live in an apartment building, and have a lockable storage room down in the cellar.

But I wonder what the neighbours would think? ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:24:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
2.5 nanoseconds after they learned what you had locked in your cellar ...

What neighbors?

:-D

Ever since I learnt about confirmation bias I've started seeing it everywhere

by ATinNM on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:28:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While Murphy's Law should definitely be taken into account anytime one is dealing with nuclear waste . . .

These things are ancient technology.  They were designed to be inherently safe - that is, no matter what one does, no matter how idiotic, they won't melt down because they are, by nature and by physics, incapable of melting down, exploding, etc.  Universities and hospitals have had them since the 60's, without a single failure.  They are nothing like larger reactors.

Now, they may be cost-inefficient compared to a variety of other systems, and there are problems with the waste every ten years or so.  But those are completely different issues.

by Zwackus on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 05:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
how secure is your celar? is it geologically stable? how close are you to floodplanes/earthquake zones/avelanche areas/ public schools?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:17:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Totally geologically stable, no floodplanes, earthquakes, avalanches or even poisonous snakes around here. Schools we do have, but they are more of a nuissance than a clear and present danger.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:22:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well I suppose mutant children are their ancestors problem, When I've got some glow in the dark waste, I'll now know just where to send it.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:42:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]


The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 04:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
heh, why nothing at all of course, don't worry your pretty little head about it, we men have it all under control...

why can't they run nukes off the good kind of radiation, you know, the kind you get in some hot springs and from the sun?

<ducks>

It's a fine line between homage, parody, and consumer opportunism. Jess Walter

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 at 05:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fusion, but proper containment of the plasma, using the remarkable technology of stable and reliable gravitational fields.  A gas energy-transport buffer-blanket that conducts the energy from the reactor core to the power transport apparatus with no leakage of ionizing radiation.  Power-beam technology that conducts the energy from the reactor to the point of use with no line loss.  And not least, a design life of 10 to 15 billion years WITHOUT refueling.  

A prototype that works.  

And they are trying to sell us a reactor that dies after seven years and leaves your backyard a superfund site!

Really!  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Nov 12th, 2008 at 01:58:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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