European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 16. November

by Fran
Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:17:01 PM EST

On this date in history:

1922 - José Saramago, a Nobel-laureate Portuguese novelist, playwright and journalist, was born.

More here and here


Welcome to the European Salon!

This Salon is open for discussions, exchange, and gossip and just plain socializing all day long. So please enter!

The Salon has different rooms or sections for your enjoyment. If you would like to join the discussion, then to add a link or comment to a topic or section, please click on "Reply to this" in one of the following sections:

EUROPE - is the place for anything to do with Europe.

WORLD - here you can add the links to topics concerning the rest of the World.

THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER - is the place for everything from environment to health to curiosa.

KLATSCH - if you like gossip, this is the place. But you can also use this place as an Open Thread until the one in the Evening opens.

SPECIAL FOCUS - will be up only for special events and topics, like elections or other stuff.

I hope you will find this place inspiring - of course meaning the inspiration gained here to show up in interesting diaries. :-)

There is just one favor I would like to ask you - please do NOT click on "Post a Comment", as this will put the link or your comment out of context at the bottom of the page.

Actually, there is another favor I would like to ask you - please, enjoy yourself and have fun at this place!

Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
EUROPE
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:17:50 PM EST
Medvedev: Republic recognition is final - UPI.com
NICE, France, Nov. 15 (UPI) -- Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said after the 22nd Russia-European Union summit that his country's recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is final.

The Russian head of state said after the international talks in Nice, France, that there likely would be no revisions of his country's official recognition of the two runaway Georgian states, ITAR-TASS reported Saturday.

Medvedev said in addition to recognizing the two states, which he said had been targeted by Georgia in the past, Russia was prepared for other Caucasus settlement talks.

"We are ready for a further constructive discussion of settlement in the Caucasus. We are ready to discuss this directly, looking each other into eyes," the president said.

"Russia recognizes Georgia's territorial integrity taking into account the fact that it recognized independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia."

ITAR-TASS reported that Medvedev said thanks, in part, to the efforts of French President Nicolas Sarkozy, his country was able to resolve the conflict in South Ossetia and enjoy fruitful talks with EU officials during the summit.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | PM 'regrets' Tory economy attack

Gordon Brown says he is disappointed by "partisan talk" after the shadow chancellor warned his actions could lead to sterling's collapse.

George Osborne told the Times the PM's willingness to borrow his way out of trouble was "irresponsible".

Sterling has fallen sharply in recent weeks amid fears about a UK recession.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the problem here is not so much that Osborne is wrong but that Brown's options are limited. He can't change the tax system till april, he can't withdraw troops from afghanistan or iraq in any time frame that makes a difference. Capital spending committments on this years budget are set.

Brown (and his tory predecessors) built the entire economy aroudn the galloping success of the City; when that falls apart they've got nothing else to prop it up. They put all their eggs in one basket and then dropped it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 04:41:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European assembly urged to forestall Kosovo partition
Leading voice in the European Parliament expresses anxiety about UN plan for the EU's mission in Serb areas of Kosovo.

A UN-sponsored plan under which the EU's police and justice mission in Kosovo would extend its reach into Serb-dominated northern Kosovo in return for as yet undisclosed concessions could lead the de facto `soft partition' of Kosovo permanent, a leading voice on Kosovo in the European Parliament has warned.

Joost Lagendijk, a Dutch member of the Green group in the European Parliament who is currently drafting a report on Kosovo, said that he was all in favour of "constructive ambiguity" - the use of terminology that can be interpreted in slightly different ways by different sides - to facilitate progress in Kosovo, whose self-declared independence is rejected by its ethnic-Serb minority. However, Lagendijk told European Voice that he feared that the UN plan could make permanent the current political and administrative divisions in Kosovo. To prevent that, Lagendijk said, the European Parliament should be prepared to use its powers over the EU budget, from which Eulex is funded, if the EU mission began to apply two sets of law in Kosovo or to follow two separate chains of command.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 04:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've come across some interesting information in relation to negotiations between Ahtisaari and Milosevic, and a certain British-Swiss banker called Peter Castenfelt. It ties in with a Finnish adviser to Ahtisaari on Serbia, who was falsely accused of being a Stasi agent.

I have to ask permission to use it. It is part of a documentary in pre-production.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 04:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SPECIAL FOCUS Finance & G20
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:18:55 PM EST
G20 Reach Agreement on Financial Regulation, Transparency | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 15.11.2008
The world's 20 top economies reached a deal Saturday, Nov. 15 to better regulate hedge funds and create more transparency in mortgage-related securities in a bid to halt a global economic slide.

Negotiators agreed on a final declaration Saturday morning during the first-ever summit of the Group of 20 (G20) nations in Washington. Leaders will sign off on the agreement later Saturday, promising to close all gaps in financial regulation.

 

That includes regulating hedge funds and boosting transparency of some of the complicated mortgage-related securities created by financial firms, which have been blamed for sparking the current financial crisis.

 

Finance ministers have been given a deadline of March 31 to hammer out the specifics in 50 different areas, followed by another summit of the G20 leaders at a later date, according to the declaration.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:21:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
AFP: G20 leaders agree reform action plan, pledge to boost growth

WASHINGTON (AFP) -- World leaders agreed at an economic crisis summit Saturday to an action plan for reforming the financial system and promised to work together to restore global growth, according to a final communique.

"We are determined to enhance our cooperation and work together to restore global growth and achieve needed reforms in the world's financial systems," the final statement from the G20 group of countries said.

The statement committed the leaders, whose countries account for 85 percent of the world economy, to fiscal measures to boost national economies and laid out a series of areas for review before a deadline of March 31.

Six areas will be targeted: regulating those areas of the financial markets which have exacerbated the crisis, boosting transparency in the often murky derivatives markets and reforming compensation practices.

The ministers must also evaluate global accounting norms and the financing needs of international financial institutions.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:22:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
afew: Finance ministers have been given a deadline of March 31 to hammer out the specifics in 50 different areas, followed by another summit of the G20 leaders at a later date, according to the declaration.

I know this is a huge undertaking, but is that soon enough?  On the other hand, is it reasonable to ask them to work even faster?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 01:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it would be  reasonable to look at legislative changes around the world that led to this problem in the last 10 - 20 years and just roll those back very quickly as a stop gap.

I always worry when I see these grand commissions that they are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. The UK govt has a long and grubby history of promising change via investigations and commissions that take so long that finally all who knew anything are dead, yet the system carries on unchanged.

We are still investigating the Bloody sunday massacre, 35 years after it happened. Jean charles de Menezes is 3 years dead and we're still holding inquiries. I can cite loads of other examples.

I fear the same thing here: A lot of politicians whose success in the world is based on the way the world worked last year and last century and who every instinct is to do all they can to preserve last year and last century have no vested interest in creating anything that might be different and therefore not work to their advantage.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 04:49:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Showdown Looms Over Auto Bailout - WSJ.com

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid plans on Monday to move forward with a bill that would give the auto industry access to the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program set up by the government in October to help ailing banks and other financial firms.

The Bush administration and many Senate Republicans disagree with such an approach. Instead, President George W. Bush late Friday urged Congress to speed up release of $25 billion in already approved loans to the auto industry. Mr. Bush asked Congress to ease requirements that those loans be used to help the industry retool to meet higher fuel-economy standards, a move opposed by many Democrats.

"We are now actively calling on Congress to pass legislation next week that will amend the loan program and accelerate much-needed funds to the auto companies," White House press secretary Dana Perino said. "It has become clear to us that the congressional Democrats...are choosing a path that will only lead to partisan gridlock."

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Surprisingly, GM sells over 60% of its cars overseas.
by asdf on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 10:29:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, of course. They sell Hummers. They probably sell them to BlackBurton at a 1000% mark-up who then sells them to the Defense Department overseas at a 20000% mark up.


Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 10:52:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually it's the captive brands like Opel that manufacture cars suitable for some geography and then sell into that geography. The number of US-made GM cars shipped overseas is probably miniscule.

The point is that if GM goes broke it's not just a U.S. problem, as usual...

by asdf on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 11:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bernanke Refusal to Buy Genworth Paper Burdens Banks  By Bryan Keogh  

Nov. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke's decision to deny commercial paper financing to all but the highest-rated borrowers is forcing some companies to seek the credit of last resort, backstop loans.

Whirlpool Corp., American Electric Power Co. and AGL Resources Inc. chose to tap emergency bank lines negotiated before the credit crisis began rather than pay twice as much on commercial paper. The defections helped shrink sales of the IOUs in the past two weeks to the lowest in more than two years.

``You've got all these people taking loans that don't want loans. They want CP,'' said Christopher Low, New York-based chief economist at FTN Financial, a unit of Tennessee's largest bank. ``All of these programs have had unintended consequences elsewhere. Every time the government elevates one class of debt it displaces another.''

-Skip-

AGL Resources Inc., the owner of Atlanta's natural gas utility, has repaid commercial paper by tapping a bank line with an interest rate of 28 basis points over one-month Libor, or about 1.69 percent. That compared with 5 percent to 6 percent for overnight commercial paper for the A-2 rated borrower, Chief Financial Officer Andrew Evans said.

Whirlpool, the world's largest appliance maker, borrowed $800 million from a credit line to pay off outstanding commercial paper, opting to exit the market because of ``uncertainty concerning access,'' according to an Oct. 31 filing. The company, rated A-2/P-2, said the revolver has a rate of 0.35 percentage point over Libor.



As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:30:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Systemic Risk, Contagion and Trade Finance - Back to the Bad Old Days

We are now starting to see the contagion effects of the current liquidity crisis feed through to the real economy. We are about to go back to the bad old days. Whether the zombie banks are kept on life support by the central banks and taxpayers of the world is highly relevant to whether the zombie bank executives pay themselves outsize bonuses and their zombie shareholders outsize dividends with taxpayer money. It appears sadly irrelevant to whether the banks perform their function of intermediating credit and commercial transactions in the real economy along the supply chain. The bailout cash and executive and shareholder priorities do not seem to reach so far.

The recent 93 percent collapse of the obscure Baltic Dry Index - an index of the cost of chartering bulk cargo vessels for goods like ore, cotton, grain or similar dry tonnage - has caused a bit of a stir among the financial cognoscenti. What is less discussed amidst the alarm is the reason for the collapse of the index - the collapse of trade credit based on the venerable letter of credit.

-Skip-

Fixing this problem shouldn't be left to the Fed. They aren't going to make it a priority. Indeed, their determination to accelerate the payment of interest on reserves and then to raise that rate to match the Fed Funds target rate indicates that the Fed are more likely to constrain trade finance liquidity rather than improve it. Furthermore, the Fed may be highly selective in its allocation of dollar liquidity abroad, prejudicing the economic prospects of a large part of the world that is either indifferent or hostile to the continuation of American dollar hegemony.

-Skip-

If cargo trade stops, a whole lot of supply chain disruption starts. If the ore doesn't go to the refinery, there is no plate steel. If the plate steel doesn't get shipped, there is nothing to fabricate into components. If there are no components, there is nothing to assemble in the factory. If the factory closes the assembly line, there are no finished goods. If there are no finished goods, there is nothing to restock the shelves of the shops. If there is nothing in the shops, the consumers don't buy. If the consumers don't buy, there is no Christmas.

-Skip-

If cargo trade stops, the wheat doesn't get exported. If the wheat doesn't get exported, the mill has nothing to grind into flour. If there is no flour, the bakeries and food processors can't produce bread and pasta and other foods. If there are no foods shipped from the bakeries and factories, there are no foods in the shops. If there are no foods in the shops, people go hungry. If people go hungry their children go hungry. When children go hungry, people riot and governments fall.



As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems as though enacting protective tariffs such as Smoot-Hawley is only one way to strangle international trade.  In the present situation commercial banks see letters of credit as short term obligations on which they can cut back in order to build reserves.  Can Paulson bring himself to create or buff up one or more import-export banks with specific mandates?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 12:08:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not that London Banker is wrong, but these real economy problems were flagged on ET some time ago, see Migeru's diaries here and here.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 01:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw it first!

See also my comment on this DailyKos diary: Two signs that something is seriously wrong

Most of the international shipments use letters of credit to guarantee payment. It is one of the oldest and safest form of short-term credit and it is vital for international trade. As early as October, it has been reported that sellers started to refuse buyers' letters of credit because they didn't trust tha banks issueing them anymore.

naked capitalism: International Trade Seizing Up Due to Banking Crisis

Letters of credit. issued by banks, assure payment. They can also serve to finance the shipment (ie, fund the inventory while it is in transit).

Not only are banks now leery of lending to each other for much longer than overnight, they are also starting to refuse to honor letters of credit from other banks. From the above-mentioned reader:

At the end of the day, if every counterparty is bad then you don't have a market and you don't have an economy. I spoke to another friend of mine this afternoon, whose father has been in the shipping business forever. Pristine credit rating, rock solid balance sheet. He says if he takes his BNP Paribas letter of credit to Citi today for short term funding for his vessels, they won't give it to him. That means he can't ship goods, which means that within the next 2 weeks, physical shortages of commodities begins to show up.


We spoke later in the evening and said he had heard of another instance of a trade transaction failing, different parties entirely, this a shipment of coal, again due to the unwillingness of the seller's bank to accept an LC from the buyer.

Confirmation comes from the Financial Post, "Grain piles up in ports" (hat tip reader Vox Sanus):

The credit crisis is spilling over into the grain industry as international buyers find themselves unable to come up with payment, forcing sellers to shoulder often substantial losses.

Before cargoes can be loaded at port, buyers typically must produce proof they are good for the money. But more deals are falling through as sellers decide they don't trust the financial institution named in the buyer's letter of credit, analysts said.

"There's all kinds of stuff stacked up on docks right now that can't be shipped because people can't get letters of credit," said Bill Gary, president of Commodity Information Systems in Oklahoma City. "The problem is not demand, and it's not supply because we have plenty of supply. It's finding anyone who can come up with the credit to buy."

That probably explains the dramatic fall in the Baltic Dry Index. If it expands, we could see the international trade coming to a halt and shortages (of food, raw materials, fuel...) taking place with ugly social and political consequences...



"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 02:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good thing you're there to set the record straight!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 04:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I recall.  I believe I even made a comment or two.  Sadly, the US Government and Congress has done nothing to deal with this.  That led to my writing my Senators yesterday, citing both this article and the one on commercial paper, along with previous correspondence which I had directed to them in September & October.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 09:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Merkel invites Opel leaders to talks - Breaking News - Business - Breaking News

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has invited leaders from automaker Opel to talks to discuss the company's financial status.

On Friday, the car company requested credit guarantees from the government, saying it wants the guarantees to counter a downturn in car orders.

However, the unit of General Motors Corp, which itself is seeking a US government bailout, said it was facing no liquidity problems.

"It is important that we consult about the proper steps to take so we can try to support the automobile industry," said Merkel on the sidelines of the global financial summit in Washington.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:26:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
CNN Money: Opel Board Member: No German State Aid For Parent General Motors

The deputy supervisory board chairman of General Motors Corp.'s (GM) Opel unit said Saturday that any financial aid from the German state must not be burned from the parent company, but has to stay within the Opel brand.

"We as employees will make our contribution in this difficult time to ensure future investments. But we won't provide a single cent, which then would be burned from GM," Klaus Franz said in a statement. Franz is also the top labor representative of GM's European division.

Referring to Opel's recent request for state-backed guarantees for credit lines, Franz said that "Opel has no liquidity problem. This is purely a precautionary measure".

The guarantee would have to be linked to concrete plans for future investments on plants and for securing jobs.

Opel is "very well positioned with its quality and models," Franz said.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:27:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:19:16 PM EST
The Associated Press: UN closes Gaza aid centers, citing lack of food

SHATI REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Gazans seeking food aid walked away empty-handed from locked United Nations distribution centers Saturday after a strict Israeli border closure depleted U.N. food reserves.

Israel sealed Gaza's borders nearly two weeks ago as part of a new round of fighting with Gaza's Hamas rulers. Hamas rocket fire on Israeli border towns and Israeli air strikes on Gaza militants have eroded a truce that had largely held for five months.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called on Israel to open the crossings to humanitarian aid and condemned the rocket fire on Israel. Measures that increase the suffering of Gaza's civilians "are unacceptable and should cease immediately," he said in a statement.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:23:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1949 Geneva Conventions: Article 54 of their additional protocol, state that;
"Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited". It is also "prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population"

I wonder if the the scribes detailing the Obama Epoch will find room for attribution of the Israeli War Crimes Trials of 2010. I find it hard to believe that he said, "F**k the lot of those who have sinned using G_d's name." That allegedly happened when he was told that only he could stop the trails the way that Clinton did in '99 when the UN General Assembly's Tenth Emergency Special Session recommended the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva [Civilian] Convention meet in Geneva on July 15 to discuss enforcement of the Convention with regard to Israeli settlement activities.

Will markets do more than marking Israeli grown fruits? how about electronics built or designed in Israeli factories?  Who will answer the claims that the Palestinians who work in those factories get hurt the worst?

Just seeing the coma-tossed Sharon on the gurney in the courtroom, with the skinny Clinton and 2 other US Presidents and a handful of Israeli Prime Ministers each standing in line as the charges were read. Jews and Palestinians all over the world cried, some for different reasons.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 10:09:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Hundreds bid farewell to Makeba

Large crowds have flocked to a memorial service in Johannesburg for South African singer Miriam Makeba, who died last weekend after a concert in Italy.

Musicians, poets and politicians paid tribute to the 76-year-old performer.

Arts minister Pallo Jordan described Makeba as "a woman whose name became synonymous with the worldwide struggle for freedom in South Africa".

Her family also attended the service at the Coca Cola Dome concert venue, which followed two days of national mourning.

They are expected to hold a smaller service for her cremation on Sunday.

The singer, who was known as Mama Africa, spent more than 30 years in exile after lending her support to the campaign against apartheid.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
POLITICS: U.S. Task Force Found Few Iranian Arms in Iraq
WASHINGTON, Nov 15 (IPS) - Last April, top George W. Bush administration officials, desperate to exploit any possible crack in the close relationship between the Nouri al-Maliki government and Iran, launched a new round of charges that Iran had stepped up covert arms assistance to Shi'a militias.

Secretary of Defence Robert M. Gates suggested that there was "some sense of an increased level of [Iranian] supply of weapons and support to these groups." And Washington Post reporter Karen DeYoung was told by military officials that the "plentiful, high quality weaponry" the militia was then using in Basra was "recently manufactured in Iran".

But a U.S. military task force had been passing on data to the Multi-National Force Iraq (MNFI) command that told a very different story. The data collected by the task force in the previous six weeks showed that relatively few of the weapons found in Shi'a militia caches were manufactured in Iran.

According to the data compiled by the task force, and made available to an academic research project last July, only 70 weapons believed to have been manufactured in Iran had been found in post-invasion weapons caches between mid-February and the second week in April. And those weapons represented only 17 percent of the weapons found in caches that had any Iranian weapons in them during that period.

The actual proportion of Iranian-made weapons to total weapons found, however, was significantly lower than that, because the task force was finding many more weapons caches in Shi'a areas that did not have any Iranian weapons in them.

The task force database identified 98 caches over the five-month period with at least one Iranian weapon, excluding caches believed to have been hidden prior to the 2003 U.S. invasion.

But according to an e-mail from the MNFI press desk this week, the task force found and analysed a total of roughly 4,600 weapons caches during that same period.

The caches that included Iranian weapons thus represented just 2 percent of all caches found. That means Iranian-made weapons were a fraction of one percent of the total weapons found in Shi'a militia caches during that period.

The extremely small proportion of Iranian arms in Shi'a militia weapons caches further suggests that Shi'a militia fighters in Iraq had been getting weapons from local and international arms markets rather than from an official Iranian-sponsored smuggling network.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Umm, the Bush Cheney regime lied. Coming soon, shock revelations about religion of Pope.

It's saddening that everything comes out too late, people sat on this information. In fact we knew it was obvious when they showed us the pictures saying these were iranian and it was obvious that the writing on them was in the european alphabet and others more expert identified the munitions as american.

It's like NYT lied about Saddams chemical weapons in the run up to the invasion, sat on FISA till after the 2004 election. So many colluded to allow Bush to wreck the country. People who will not hesitate to destroy Obama and claim that treachery makes them honourable again. It's a funny world where people just accept this.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 04:55:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NY Times, Baghdad bureau
It seems to me that things are getting worse.

This week I was at the scene of a bombing, reporting a news story
about three explosions in Adhamiya. They were horrible explosions, all at the same time in a very crowded Shia neighborhood. I remember the smell of the blood, the flies all around and the injured people, the broken glass and the destruction.

------------------------------

I do not think I am more cautious or worried than most people. In Adhamiya I was the only woman on the street while the police were clearing away the remains of the explosion, the glass, blood, clothes
and the pieces of meat left over from restaurants.

But it seems to be that things are getting worse, and I am now being more careful to avoid crowded places and bazaars.
----------------------------
In The New York Times's office I am the one who sits next to the whiteboard where we record explosions, shootings and other deaths in Iraq. Since two days before Barack Obama's victory I started to notice the board filling up again. There are many explosions. Many of them are small, but some days we have to start a new column. It was not like this even two weeks ago.

But my mother lives in a safe, Shiite neighborhood, and always sticks to her house. The reason she thinks the situation is becoming worse is because of what she hears speaking to friends and neighbors whose relatives were killed or injured.

Some people are saying that the Americans are making the bombings to make Iraqis believe that it is very important for them to stay in Iraq, that they are still needed. The Americans say that when they
withdraw from Iraq violence will increase. Is that a threat? You can read it as a threat, or you can read it as an expectation. Some Iraqis take it as a threat.

Some people are asking: "Are the Americans punishing us with bombings because Iraq has refused to sign the SOFA?" [Status of Forces Agreement]

Here that is a reality, people think it. I can see it in people's eyes when they say it to me. Real belief in what they are saying.
------------------------
Anwar J. Ali is an Iraqi journalist who works for The New York Times in Baghdad.

It seems like more than some people think all these bombings are from the Americans. At times it seems like everyone thinks so.

Just two days ago I went to cover a car bombing in what had been a relatively peaceful part of eastern Baghdad. The bomb exploded in a parking lot surrounded by doctors' offices and pharmacies. My colleague, Mudhafer, and I searched for one of the doctors, walking through bombed-out buildings filled with broken glass and overturned furniture. Finally, in one of the pharmacies we found Dr Daniel
Khafaji, a clean-shaven man in a pin striped suit.

"It is only the SOFA," he said casually, referring to the contentious security agreement being negotiated between the Americans and Iraqis. "This is all in the interest of the Americans. We are occupied."

He said that American troops were seen near the bomb only 10 minutes before it went off, a line that you hear so often it has almost become a formality, and he repeated the usual theory: the Americans said there would be violence if the SOFA, which sets the conditions for the Americans' continued presence in Iraq after the end of the year, didn't pass. It hasn't passed so here's the violence. If it makes sense it must be true.
-------------------
These next few months are not going to be easy.



Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 04:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
geezer in Paris:
"Are the Americans punishing us with bombings because Iraq has refused to sign the SOFA?"

Well, we'll know soon enough: Since both al-Maliki and al-Sistani are now both in favor of the agreement, those Americans who are supposedly behind the bombings will at least stop them until and unless the Iraqi parliament rejects it.  If the bombings continue regardless of the current Iraqi momentum towards supporting SOFA, that would seem to weaken this speculation.

But quite frankly, I find this theory hard to believe to begin with.  Mr. Ali, the blogger, is correct:

Don't they realize it's in the interest of the Americans for everything to be quiet right now? That all of this violence actually makes the Americans look bad?

And his colleague Mudhafer's explanation, in that blog post, seems much more plausible:

Mudhafer astutely suggested that the insurgents are savvy enough to understand how this thinking works and could be taking advantage of it to cause chaos.

In other words, the insurgents know that Iraqis are susceptible to anti-American conspiracy theories, and the rationality and credibility of such theories is beside the point when the aim is simply to make people hate and distrust Americans ever more intensely.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 01:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whilst I agree with you, I can't help feeling that these agreements wouldn't be anything like so contentious if they weren't so heavily skewed in america's favour.

How can iraqis not feel they are suffering colonial abuse when their very own govt is being held to ransom in a way that is indistinguishable from gangsterism. Lovely country you've got here, shame if something happened to it - smash - .

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NZ Herald: Emissions trading scheme up for review under Act deal
The incoming National government will completely review the emissions trading scheme (ETS) - possibly including the science that says humans are to blame for climate change - as part of its support deal with Act.

But Prime Minister-elect John Key is still confident an amended ETS will be passed into law before the end of next year.

[...]

Under Act's support agreement a "special select committee" will be set up to review the current ETS and any proposed amendments "in light of the current economic circumstances".

A draft terms of reference for the review attached to the agreement, includes hearing "competing views on the scientific aspects of climate change" and looking at the merits of a "mitigation or adaptation approach".

It also includes looking at the merits of an ETS, as opposed to a carbon tax, and the timing of any future climate change interventions.

The deal requires the National government to pass immediate legislation delaying the implementation of the ETS until the review is complete.

In short, they've shitcanned it.  Fourth time wasn't so lucky after all.

My country is clearly not going to get serious climate change policy unless we are strongarmed into it by European trading partners.  So, any suggestions on how to make that happen?  Any way of getting EU green groups to run a hate campaign against NZ's backsliding?

by IdiotSavant on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:52:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:19:37 PM EST
Mountain View man sought in triple homicide - San Jose Mercury News

A recently laid off high-tech employee allegedly opened fire late Friday afternoon inside the Santa Clara office where he used to work, killing three people and sparking a massive police dragnet that spread throughout the area.

Santa Clara police identified Jing Hua Wu, 47, of Mountain View, as the gunman who shot to death two men and one woman with a handgun before driving off in a silver sport utility vehicle, believed to be a rented Mercury Mountaineer.

(...)

Late Tuesday, police identified the two men killed as Sid Agrawal, the company's chief executive, and Brian Pugh, vice president of operations for the company. The identity of the third victim had not been released as of 11 p.m. Friday.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you'll find that many americans would argue that if only those people had all been carrying guns there would have been no problem.

There's no point discussing it, I've been there and done it. It's utterly futile.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:02:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
MEXICO: Kidnapped Migrant Women - Out of Sight, Out of Mind
MEXICO CITY, Nov 14 (IPS) - "I don't see any investigation, only grief and despair," said Heyman Vázquez, a Catholic priest who runs a shelter for migrants on the border between the southern Mexican states of Chiapas and Oaxaca, referring to the recent kidnappings of 20 Central American women by groups of armed men.

"They promised to investigate, but no one has even come to make enquiries," Vázquez told IPS from Arriaga, where the women, most of them under 30, boarded a freight train heading north. A short distance from there they were kidnapped, in two separate incidents on Nov. 5 and 11.

Every day, dozens of Central American migrants en route to the United States arrive at Arriaga, some 500 kilometres from the border between Mexico and Guatemala, after having walked for up to 15 days.

Until mid-2007 they came by train, but now they travel on foot or by bus, because the railway lines south of Arriaga are damaged and no trains are running.

On the night of Nov. 5, at a place called Las Anonas, a group of armed men in a 4 x 4 all terrain vehicle forced the freight train to stop and took away 12 Central American women. They have not been seen or heard from since.

Six days later at a nearby spot, a similar armed group burst into a small migration post and took away another eight women, according to eye witnesses.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DEVELOPMENT: Building a Stronger Women's Movement
CAPE TOWN, Nov 15 (IPS) - For four days, Cape Town's convention centre will be filled with a profusion of languages, colours, and ideas as some 2,200 delegates from 144 countries take part in the 11th International Forum on Women's Rights and Development, organised by the Association of Women in Development (AWID).

The conference theme, "The Power of Movements," is an expression of AWID's mission to advance women's rights worldwide by strengthening the impact and influence of women's organisations.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:39:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's called feminicidio. Over a thousand women have disappeared in the past fifteen years, heading for the promised land. All you need is a militarized frontier, organized crime and raw life to feed the libidinous beast.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 06:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brown clouds of pollution a huge threat to Asia: UN
Beijing (AFP) Nov 13, 2008
Enormous brown clouds of pollution hanging over Asia are killing hundreds of thousands of people, melting glaciers, changing weather patterns and damaging crops, the United Nations said Thursday.

Car traffic, factory emissions and indoor cooking are among the culprits for the "Atmospheric Brown Clouds", which are up to three kilometres (1.8 miles) thick, according the UN's Environment Programme (UNEP).

Releasing a landmark report on the phenomenon, the UNEP said getting rid of the clouds could help ease many environmental problems in Asia.

"The Atmospheric Brown Cloud is both complex and in need of a great deal more attention," UNEP executive director Achim Steiner told reporters.

Unlike greenhouse gas emissions blamed for global warming, which take decades or longer to disperse, the clouds would disappear in a matter of weeks if the sources of the problem ceased to pollute, the report said.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:59:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pesticides more dangerous than thought
Pittsburgh (UPI) Nov 13, 2008
U.S. scientists studying 10 of the world's most popular approved pesticides say, when combined, the chemicals caused 99 percent mortality in tadpoles.

University of Pittsburgh researchers said the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency-approved pesticides, when mixed together, can decimate amphibian populations even if the concentration of the individual chemicals is within limits considered safe.

Such "cocktails of contaminants" are frequently detected in nature, the scientists said, noting their findings offer the first illustration of how a large mixture of pesticides can adversely impact the environment.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 04:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I shortcircuited on the title. I simply couldn't imagine that pesticides are more dangerous than thought- or what passes as thought.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 06:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pesticides are more dangerous than official safety agencies under lobby influence ever told us.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 02:17:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Every paper in UK - After seven-year battle, woman wins landmark ruling on pesticide risks

AN ENVIRONMENTAL campaigner has won a landmark legal victory that could change the way pesticides are used.

A High Court judge ruled the government had failed to comply with its obligations under a European directive to protect rural residents from possible harmful exposure to toxic chemicals during crop spraying.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:05:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Christian Right outdoes itself again.  Because, after all, what's Christmas without a cross-burning (via John Aravosis)?



Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 08:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A reply I got on it by email:

Act now and get a complete set of sheets with matching hood. The first 100 callers get a hangman's noose and a Confederate flag personally autographed by former Senator George Allen.


Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 10:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Scientists Turn Tequila into Diamonds
Whoever thought that science was a dry subject might change their mind after learning about a new discovery in which tequila is turned into diamonds. A team of Mexican scientists found that the heated vapor from 80-proof (40% alcohol) tequila blanco, when deposited on a silicon or stainless steel substrate, can form diamond films.
The key to the surprising discovery is tequila's ratio of hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon, which lies within the "diamond growth region." The resulting diamond films could have inexpensive commercial applications as electrical insulators, say researchers Javier Morales, Luis Miguel Apátiga, and Víctor Manuel Castaño from the National Autonomous University of Mexico (Morales is also with Nuevo León´s Autonomous University).

Originally, the scientists were experimenting with creating diamonds from organic solutions such as acetone, ethanol, and methanol. They found that diluting ethanol in water resulted in high quality diamond films. The scientists then noticed that the ideal compound of 40 percent ethanol and 60 percent water was similar to the proportion used in tequila.
by Nomad on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 01:47:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Izzy caught this last year:
According to [French architect Jean-Pierre Houdin's] theory - shown in a computer model available at http://www.3ds.com/khufu - the builders put up an outer ramp for the first 140 feet, then constructed an inner ramp in a corkscrew shape to complete the 450-foot structure.

Seattle PI:  Architect claims to solve pyramid secret

Now here's a video illustrating the theory -- and possible evidence for it -- from a National Geographic documentary to be broadcast tonight in the U.S.:

Will be interesting to see if more investigations confirm the existence of that internal ramp.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
KLATSCH
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:20:07 PM EST


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 04:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ananova - Ancient Greeks wrote parrot sketch

Monty Python's famous Dead Parrot sketch was based on one written 1,600 years ago in Ancient Greece.

Historians have revealed it is in the world's oldest joke book - entitled Philogelos, or The Lover of Laughter, reports The Sun.

In the fourth-century version, a man goes up to a slave trader and moans: "The slave you sold me died."

Under the law then, he was entitled to damages.

The trader replies: "Did he? By the gods, when he was with me he never did such a thing!"

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 04:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry, can't find the newspaper article but there is a tradition that currency notes honour famous people in British history, Shakespeare, Newton etc.

So they've honoured charles Darwin and his work on galapagos islands and the mockingbird. Except the bird pictured on the new note is a ....hummingbird.

Whooops - a - daisy

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:09:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I won't be around for OT tonight but wanted to draw your attention to this comment re First amedment rights vs protesting Prop8 ;-

Feministing - Rick

People say that this is re-defining marriage, or is of some other cultural significance.

Saying this makes you seem ignorant of how language works.

A "bow" is the front part of a ship. A "bow" is a gesture made by bending at the waist. The letters are the same. The pronunciation is the same, but the words refer to very different things.

"Marriage" is a social institution. "Marriage" is a religious institution. "Marriage" is a legal institution. The letters are the same. The pronunciations are the same. But the words refer to very different things.

My parents have stated to their community that they intend to spend their lives together, the community recognizes them as a social unit. They thus have a marriage(social).

They both believe in a god, and their church has recognized this union as a holy bond between souls. Thus they have a marriage(religious).

They also signed a contract, designed, sustained and enforced by the powers of the state in which they live. This contract was created under state law and grants them certain rights and obligations towards one another. Thus they have a marriage(civil).

The problem with your position is you are watering down the meaning of marriage by conflating all the definitions with marriage(civil).

What the state grants, the state can take away. You're ascribing to the state the power and authority to break up not only my parents marriage(civil) but also their marriage(religious) and their marriage(social).

Prop 8 has no impact on what god does or doesn't do; the Govenator isn't quite that powerful yet. Nor can the state force you to recognize a given household arrangement as good or not good.

So, when people go, "It's not about law, it's about a social institution" I look at them with contempt.

Either you're so amoral that you look to what is legal to determine what is moral or you're playing linguistic games to disguise bigotry.

Either way, this is a position that deserves no respect



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:43:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
there's a great set of stories from around the ocuntry about protesting Prop 8 at Andrew Sullivan's place.

I admit I got a bit tearful reading some of this stuff of people coming together to protest injustice and being energised. And I realised I hadn't felt like that with Obama's victory cos there was a sense of inevitability about it that, for a foreigner, dulled the pleasure. But this was unexpected, I really didn't expect prop 8 to pass, I was shocked and hurt and said some angry things I regret, but seeing this reaction makes me feel good and hopeful in a way Obama never did for me, so I teared up a bit. (Twank falls off chair at Helen saying anything positive)

Best quote

For younger gays, this is the first time we've had the chance to take to the streets and fight for our basic humanity.  Now that we've gotten a taste of what it feels like, I don't think we're ever going to give it up.

I love the sentiment, but it's bittersweet that now, in the west in the 21st century, gay people still feel they have to fight for their humanity.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What a ridiculous comment. Aside from the rather obvious personal freedom issue, aren't there specific financial implications and rights available to married people in the US which aren't available to those living together 'informally'?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:08:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure I follow your objection. Anyway, it was a comment made in response to this (I should have quoted. sorry)

Why? Because Prop. 8 is not about hating gay people (for some people, at least).

Aren't there legitimate cultural conservatives out there who are simply uncomfortable with a redefinition of marriage? Say what you will about the institution, but it has been around for thousands of years, so I think that whether or not it should be changed is a legitimate debate.

Now, if Eckern is had said, "I think being gay is wrong, so I'm voting against Prop. 8," then any backlash would be for personal - not political - views. But while not constitutionally protected, I think everyone benefits from having all political views protected from personal backlash.

Now, aside from the "it's not about what you are, it's about what you said" red herring, the thing I find compelling about the repsonse is that too many on the Prop8 side are saying that allowing gays to marry is a blow against all marriage, against the tradition of marriage, when it is anything but. The responder states that there are 3 potential aspects of marriage and each of them is not actually related to the other two but may or may not exist co-incidentally. This, to my mind, utterly demolishes the prop8 contention.

However, I appreciate I'm probably too close to it and too easily swayed by people being clever rather than intelligent, but can't hang around cos I'm out the door in a couple of mins and have to sign out.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:53:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think the aspects exist coincidentally. 'God' doesn't sanction anything - all that happens in a church is that there's a ritual which legitimises the relationship within one particular sub-community, under that sub-community's totemic authority figure.

Similarly a 'civil' ceremony legitimises the relationship under a slightly more visible but still somewhat abstract civil authority.

More or less at the bottom of the scale of legitimisation is two people saying in public that they would like to stay together. It's not usually enough for two people to do this, because - as any authoritarian will tell you - people can't be trusted to stay out of trouble and keep their promises.

So the statement is meaningless socially unless legitimised by an external authority. (It won't feel meaningless personally, but if personal feelings were considered foundational, marriage wouldn't exist at all.)

So there really is only one kind of marriage - a public ceremony where a totemic authority approves the union. The only apparent difference is that different sub-communities choose to respect different authority totems.

By removing the possibility for formal approval, gay relationships are delegitimised. The implication is that gay relationships can't be serious, unlike 'real' straight marriages.

It doesn't need a round trip through any of the amendments to get to this - it's a very obvious and straightforward form of discrimination.

The notion that 'marriage has been around for thousands of years' is nonsense, of course. In practice, marriage has always meant different things in different cultures.

Also - why has hardly anyone pointed out the irony of a church which promotes polygamy complaining about 'the redefinition of marriage'?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 09:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having been married in Califonia, and having just gone to weddings in Cannes and Milano, I must quibble a little.

In the Catholic wedding, the priest and congregation certainly thought that TheirGod had sanctioned the wedding and the couple. With all the joy in the room, I'm not certain that they would be wrong. I don't know if Italian law says that they have to have a civil ceremony before.

The civil authority wasn't too abstract, nor were the expectations during the ceremony in Cannes. Everyone knew what they were getting out of the package. They could have gotten a religious ceremony on top of that, but didn't.

The problem in California is that there is a discrimination issue that won't go away since the door is too open and there are too many precedents. The courts will again and again slap that way. The state sanctions and approves certain things, among them certain legal immunities, tax and estate privileges, and things like hospital visits, among others.

The problem, of course, is not just those silly Californians, but the federal law that inseminates insinuates the marriage rights of another state into all states.

I'm sure that someone pointed out that in previous centuries, when the Mormons were being slaughtered for being too 'other' that they had a MotivatedProcreationalPlan. But it hasn't been promoted for a long time. I don't know much about the religion, but most of them are pretty straight-laced.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 10:47:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
siegestate:
In the Catholic wedding, the priest and congregation certainly thought that TheirGod had sanctioned the wedding and the couple. With all the joy in the room, I'm not certain that they would be wrong.

That's totems for you. Would there have been any less joy among pagans or buddhists?

siegestate:

They could have gotten a religious ceremony on top of that, but didn't.

If you're not part of a sub-community, its rituals won't have any mojo for you and you're unlikely to bother with them.

The difference with civil ceremonies is that there are legal and financial rights, expectations and privileges.

Anthropological nuance aside, denying those to a group is discriminatory.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 11:46:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difference with civil ceremonies is that there are legal and financial rights, expectations and privileges.

Difficult not to concur, since I made the same point.

Anthropological nuance aside, denying those to a group is discriminatory.

I also said the same, minus the smear on AnthropologicalNuanceTM. I don't feel like dragging this out, but one must agree that there is more to life than legal and financial rights, expectations and privileges. I can't think of any, but certainly there must be something.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:48:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Part of the problem is that those financial implications and rights are distributed through thousands of interconnected laws and legal decisions made over centuries.

In our election last week in Colorado we had an anti-abortion proposition that attempted to define conception as the beginning of life. Everybody opposed it--even the Catholics and other pretty virulent anti-abortion organizations--because it would have generated hundreds of lawsuits over how it affected those many existing laws.

The marriage versus civil union discussion follows roughly the same lines. If you just say that gay marriage is ok, then pretty much everything falls into place. But if you try to introduce a new legal concept of civil unions, then the legal system has to trace through all of the new implications and interactions.

by asdf on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 10:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]