European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 17. November

by Fran
Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:29:14 PM EST

On this date in history:

1827 - Petko Slavejkov, a noted nineteenth-century Bulgarian poet, publicist, public figure and folklorist, was born. (d. 1895)

More here


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EUROPE
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:29:36 PM EST
Medvedev Says Russia Ready to Discuss Missile Defense | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 16.11.2008
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said the United States and Russia share "no trust" in relations but suggested the two countries can begin to heal ties and reach an agreement over a missile defense system.

Speaking Saturday, Nov. 15, after the gathering of 20 world economic powers in Washington to address the financial crisis, Medvedev said there is "no trust in Russian-US relations -- the trust we need" to tackle international challenges and strengthen ties.

 

However, he also signaled a readiness to enter into talks with the US over its plan to build a missile shield in eastern Europe.

 

"We will not do anything until America does the first step," Medvedev said. "I think we have a chance to solve the problem through either agreeing on a global (anti-missile) system or to find a solution on the existing programs which would suit the Russian Federation."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Medvedev sets bar high for better ties with U.S. - International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON: President Dmitri Medvedev of Russia expressed hope over the weekend that President-elect Barack Obama's election would improve relations that have soured under President George W. Bush, but he remained unwavering on the issues that have most starkly divided the countries in recent years.

Medvedev, in Washington for the first time since his election last spring, reiterated Russia's opposition to the expansion of NATO and vowed that Russia would not reverse its recognition of two separatist regions in Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, after the war there in August.

He also repeated his threat, first made the day after Obama was elected, to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad if the United States moved ahead with plans to build missile defense systems in Poland and the Czech Republic. As he did in France on Friday, however, he said he was prepared to hold talks on the issue.

"There is no trust in the Russia-U.S. relations, the trust we need," Medvedev said, speaking before the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington after participating in the summit meeting on the financial crisis Saturday that brought together the leaders of 20 countries. "Therefore we have great aspirations for the new administration."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:35:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fran:
"There is no trust in the Russia-U.S. relations, the trust we need,"

how many times did we promise not to expand NATO beyond a certain point, then break our promise?

i know they broke them too... but he's right.

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 11:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Italian Auschwitz Survivor Warns Against Roma Discrimination | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 15.11.2008
On the 70th anniversary of anti-Jewish decrees in Italy, an Italian Auschwitz survivor has said the Roma population faces discrimination similar to Jews in Nazi Germany.

"History is repeating itself" in Italy, Piero Terracina said Friday, Nov. 14, at a conference marking the 70th anniversary of the notorious racial laws targeting Jews, which were approved by the Italian cabinet on Nov. 15, 1938.

"Everything started with the census of the Jews and the terrible consequences to which this led us," said Terracina, reported AFP news agency.

The 80-year-old Holocaust survivor was freed from the Auschwitz concentration camp in January 1945, shortly before the end of World War II.

The discriminatory decrees introduced in both Nazi Germany and Italy under then leader Benito Mussolini included the prohibition of mixed marriages between Jews and so-called "Aryans" and economic restrictions on Jews, among other measures.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:33:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A brief word on what's going on: Over the weekend Carlo Mosca, the prefect of Rome, was removed from office by the racist Minister of the Interior, apparently just after President Napolitano praised immigration as a vital resource for the nation.

Mosca is well known for his refusal to take fingerprints of the Rom as well as his refusal to evacuate the "nomad" camps unless there is a better alternative.

Mosca's refusal coupled with criticism by the EU led the government to back track on its racist anti-Rom decree. The modified decree was then deemed acceptable by the EU (Fran posted on the EU's acceptance of the decree in the Salon sometime back.) So the civil servant and Rome police head, Carlo Mosca, can be thanked for honouring his role and not caving into political pressure.

On the other hand the prefect of Lampedusa has cancelled the contract with Medecines sans Frontieres for the island. He asserts that the boat people should go elsewhere to get cured. MSF represents no cost for the Italian state as it is entirely self-funded. It is the only mobile hospital on the island that can respond to the grave health problems, often life threatening, of the boat people. However, MSF needs government approval to operate in what has been declared an emergency militarized area.

Prefect Morcone of Lampedusa knows in what direction the wind is blowing. With the vacancy in Rome maybe he's looking for a promotion. It would be entirely in keeping with the crass racist policies of Mr. Berlusconi's pornocrazia.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:38:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
have you seen 'in nome del popolo' by gassman, ('71), de G?

in it one can see where b. got many of his moves from.

very prophetic...

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 06:26:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Slovak, Hungarian leaders Fail to Thaw Icy Relations | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 15.11.2008
Slovak Prime Minister Robert Fico and his Hungarian counterpart Ferenc Gyurcsany failed to thaw icy relations between their countries in a meeting called to stem nationalist tensions.

While the leaders on Saturday, Nov. 15, called for cooperation after their meeting in the border town of Komarno, they mostly engaged in a stinging exchange that did more to highlight their disagreements than signal a quick way out of the crisis.

"The biggest problem is the export of fascism and extremism from Hungarian territory to Slovakia," Fico said at a press conference televised on the TA3 news channel.

He urged his counterpart to crack down on Hungary's neo-Nazis, who have contributed to escalating tensions in recent weeks.

"It is unacceptable for us ... that 28 people dressed in Hungarian fascist uniforms cross the border and march through a Slovak town," Fico said referring to a recent incident.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wanted to write an in-depth diary on this mess already yesterday, but don't have the time now. Probably on Wednesday.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:27:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Party leadership rivals gang up to sink Ségolène Royal - Times Online

An "Anyone But Ségolène" movement gathered steam at France's Socialist party congress yesterday as rivals strove to prevent Ségolène Royal, the party's former presidential candidate, from taking control.

Royal, 55, who lost to Nicolas Sarkozy in last year's election, is standing for the post of party secretary-general, which is being vacated after 11 years by François Hollande, her former lover.

Yet even Hollande, who has four children with Royal, has sided with one of her rivals in the increasingly acrimonious leadership contest.

The debates are taking place this weekend in Reims, the Champagne capital, but there is nothing to celebrate. The socialists have been so busy arguing among themselves that they have lost all credibility against Sarkozy. He has added insult to injury by appointing some of their most charismatic figures to cabinet posts.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:37:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
French Socialist Party in chaos - Telegraph
The French Socialist Party was plunged into chaos after their annual congress failed to produce either a leader or policy platform.

The French Socialist Party was plunged into chaos after their annual congress failed to produce either a leader or policy platform.

Segolene Royal, runner-up to Nicolas Sarkozy in last year's presidential election, had hoped to emerge as secretary general following the three day event in Reims, the champagne capital.

It was seen as a last chance for the Socialists to restore their credibility under a new leader before the 2012 presidential vote.

But the main opposition party failed to unite at a time when Mr Sarkozy's approval ratings have improved with his high-profile presidency of the European Union.

Instead there were dire warnings of the end of French socialism, with party members now having to vote on a compromise candidate - and set of policies - on Thursday.

Ms Royal will be up against Martine Aubry, the architect of the woefully discredited 35 hour working week, and the ultra left wing Euro MP Benoît Hamon.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What ? party members rather than the elite actually choosing the party leader ? how shocking !

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'last chance for socialists' (who just won the most cities ever in the most recent nationwide election and hold 21 out of 22 regions)

'the end of French socialist' - they wish

'the woefully discredited 35-hour week' - only in their incessant propaganda about it, not in reality (they contributed to the biggest ever surge in job creation in France, and are strongly supported by most of those who benefit from the regime)

'ultra left wing Hamon' - like Blair is ultra right wing.

blah.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:06:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But not supported by those who don't.

Which is a lot of people, many of whom should be voting left, butno longer do, because they got sold out by the PS.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:19:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
About the "35 hours week", one interesting thing to notice is the fact that, although the new law allows it, only a very small number of companies that had signed a working-time reduction agreement have repealed it...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Melanchthon: although the new law allows it, only a very small number of companies that had signed a working-time reduction agreement have repealed it...

how would employees typically react if companies tried to repeal it?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 04:36:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There does appear to be a brewing Aubry/Hamon alliance from the articles I have read elsewhere (Le Monde, Nouvel Obs, none of which I'm qualified to translate).

It is a great sign that Delanoe has stepped aside, he didn't seem that passionate and he was being pushed by the old elephants who are the most discredited of all PS.

I think many are against Royal because they know that she has more to prove than to offer.  

To me it seems that the Holland/Royal affair has been disastrous for the party and while it is not all Sego's fault it is her duty to step aside at this time and allow the party to build a future for itself.  

by paving on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 04:48:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sweden: Where tax goes up to 60 per cent, and everybody's happy paying it | Money | The Observer

Political parties have been vying to offer the biggest tax cuts as the credit crunch tightens its grip on Britain. In their view, low taxes are now the best way to get the economy going and to help out families.

Cutting or keeping taxes low has always proved popular with the electorate: in 1992 the Conservatives' election campaign slogan 'Labour's tax bombshell' made the most of the then shadow Chancellor John Smith's intention to increase the higher rate of tax from 40 to 50 per cent. Labour lost.

But is this the best way to proceed in the long term, and would UK taxpayers get better value for money if they paid more, rather than less?

One way to examine the issue is to compare state help provided by the British government to one which traditionally charges much higher taxes: Sweden. Swedes support the second-highest tax burden in the world - after Denmark's - with an average of 48.2 per cent of GDP going to taxes. Yet Sweden, along with equally high-taxing Denmark and Norway, tops almost every international barometer of successful societies.

Swedes' personal income tax can be as little as 29 per cent of their pay, but most people (anyone earning over £32,000) will pay between 49 and 60 per cent through a combination of local government and state income tax.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:37:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
be printed?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:07:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fran:
Swedes' personal income tax can be as little as 29 per cent of their pay, but most people (anyone earning over £32,000) will pay between 49 and 60 per cent through a combination of local government and state income tax.

Most people?

Preliminary income statistics for 2007 - Statistics Sweden

The median income in 2007, according to the preliminary measurements, amounted to SEK 217 600.

Google informs me that this is roughly £18500.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 06:41:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah come on, you don't get to be counted among "people" unless you are landed, have at least 3 servants (better have slaves actually) and at least one minister number in your cellphone registry.

I think we all agree it's much better that way.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:03:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Three Kremlin-Friendly Parties Merge in Russia | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 16.11.2008
Three Kremlin-friendly opposition parties, which failed to win seats in the Russian parliament in 2007 elections, have formed a new liberal party called Just Cause. They have have their eye on the next poll in 2011.

At the party's inaugural congress on Sunday, Nov. 16, the initiators said the move had been discussed with the Kremlin, according to Moscow radio broadcaster Echo Moskvy.

The party had been formed with the help of the Kremlin, but not by the Russian government, said Leonid Gosman, deputy chairman of the Union of Just Forces (SPS).

The SPS and its two allies, the Democratic Party and the Citizens' Force, disbanded to to form the new union.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:38:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

... have formed a new liberal party called Just Cause.

... Leonid Gosman, deputy chairman of the Union of Just Forces (SPS).

"Right Cause" is more adequate translation for "Правое Дело" and "Union of Right Forces" for "Союз Правых Сил".

In Russian context "liberal" means basically "right-wing", i.e. Pinochet is a liberal. At the moment 7% election barrier is too high for any liberal party to get into federal Parliament; at 2%, SPS or "Right Cause" will have a chance.


Representatives of other Russian opposition parties criticized the move, saying the new party would be too close to the Kremlin.

A "party" has specific legal meaning in Russia, including requirements on number of members and regional representation standards and formal and transparent financing. A loose group of few dozen unelectable into any office "liberals" financed by the foreign powers is not a "party".


The SPS was co-financed by former oil magnate Mikhail Khodorkovsky until his imprisonment in 2003.

And before and after 2003 SPS was financed by the state electric utility company, i.e. by the feared "Kremlin".

by blackhawk on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:04:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greens in Germany pick son of Turks as leader - International Herald Tribune

BERLIN: The Green party, one of Germany's main political parties, has elected the son of Turkish immigrants to its top political post, the first time any party here has chosen a leader with an immigrant background.

The election Saturday of Cem Ozdemir, 42, born in southern Germany of parents who had come from Turkey to work as "Gastarbeiter," or guest workers, during the 1960s, marks a major turning point not only for the opposition Greens, but also for the country as a whole.

Even though more than 2.6 million Turks live in Germany, accounting for 3 percent of the population, few have managed to make it to the higher ranks of the professions, including politics and the civil service.

But with a conservative party that had chosen Angela Merkel to run as chancellor in 2005 - a successful gambit - and now an ethnic Turk at the helm of an influential party, it appears that German society is slowly breaking with the past, when women were inconspicuous in public and immigrants' voices were seldom heard.

Ozdemir, a social scientist who studied at the Lutheran College for Social Sciences in Reutlingen in the state of Baden-Württemberg, was elected as a Greens legislator to the lower house of Parliament, the Bundestag, in 1994, the first time anyone with a Turkish background had won such a mandate. He moved to the European Parliament in 2004 after he was forced to give up his parliamentary seat for using his publicly paid airline miles for private use.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't Obama prove it beyond any other argument?

Oh, btw, Pierre Bérégovoy, the former PM, was the son of poor Ukrainian immigrants; I'm pretty sure that the slavs were treated as badly as the Arabs are today in 1920s France (in fact, Le Canard Enchainé loves to show the odd headline from back then about how these people were coming with their religion, were ticking togzther and not integrating, etc...)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the first time any party here has chosen a leader with an immigrant background.

It's a step forward for Germany...looks like Turks now have critical numbers in Germany.
by vbo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:07:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo: It's a step forward for Germany...looks like Turks now have critical numbers in Germany.

Congratulations to Herr Ozdemir and to the Grünen.

I am guessing that the Greens are still not a "mainstream party" in Germany?

But the following passage really surprised me:

Ralf Fücks, director of the Heinrich Böll Foundation, which is affiliated with the Green party, said, "In some ways we have more in common with the conservatives when it comes to human rights and values, which Merkel has paid particular attention to."

The Greens and the conservatives also support economic reform, and Merkel has made environmental issues a central theme of her party. But the sticking point for any cooperation, as Fücks acknowledged, is nuclear power.

Greens in Germany pick son of Turks as leader - International Herald Tribune

Aside from nuclear power and deploying German soldiers abroad (which, though, even the Realo wing of the Greens apparently support, according to this article), aren't there other issues that make a Green-Conservative alliance... strange?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 04:57:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but these issues are mainly cultural. There is a conservative / green coalition in Hamburg, where the conservative party is, well, somewhat more cosmopolitan. Something you can't say about the CDU in Berlin!

On the other hand, this 'more in common with the conservatives' is mainly in scolding China and Russia, which is not a really deep basis.

The Greens are an established party in Germany by now, in the Bundestag since 1983, although they tend to get only around eight percent of the vote.

Earlier Özdemir coverage on ET:

Coup among the German Social Democrats | DoDo on Mon Sep 8th, 2008:

Meanwhile, leadership choice in another German party.

The German Greens (the most influential Green party world-wide) don't have a single boss, and there is still significant party democracy. Of the top, there are two - to keep peace in the party, one from the "Fundi" wing, and one from the former "Realo" wing. The latter has been ominously renamed the "Reformer" wing.

Renewal of the post is coming. The fundis want to re-nominate the incumbent, Claudia Roth. Among the 'Reformers', there were two candidates, but 48-year-old Volker Ratzmann withdrew: his partner in life (another Green MP) is expecting their first child, and he chose father duties over a stronger political role. So the choice of MEP Cem Özdemir is now almost certain:

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:14:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the background info, and for DoDo's comment.

nanne: There is a conservative / green coalition in Hamburg, where the conservative party is, well, somewhat more cosmopolitan.

Yes, the article mentions that:

With new leaders in place, the Greens are now turning their attention to federal elections next September. Some observers are asking whether the Greens, along with the pro-business Free Democrats, might win enough votes to become junior partners for Merkel's conservative bloc.

Such an idea was treated with ridicule until recently. But in February, the Christian Democrats chose to share power with the Greens in the port city of Hamburg. So far, the coalition, the first of its kind on the state level, has been working effectively, serving as a litmus test for other states.

Greens in Germany pick son of Turks as leader - International Herald Tribune



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:35:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Greens ... also support economic reform

That's a stretch. It is true that the Greens carried Schröder's Agenda 2010 with less trouble than the left of the SPD, and that they are not at all unfriendly to market-pased solutions (sadly, the support for rail liberalisation, also the IMO mistaken focus on separation of electricity grid and production in their fight against the anti-renewables, anti-distributed power electricity giants), there is a lot of 'reform' criticism, too -- a heavy part of their opposition work now.

Nanne says that differences are mainly cultural; I'd agree but I think cultural issues matter, they may matter especially on education. (How the Hamburg coalition works or doesn't work out on that -- may or may not destroy the Greens there.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgot:

Aside from nuclear power and deploying German soldiers abroad (which, though, even the Realo wing of the Greens apparently support, according to this article)

But on the latter, they were clearly voted down by the party conference, while Özdemir effectively made the CDU's change on the former the condition of a future coalition in a new interview.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Audacity of Hope: Chapter II - The Washington Note

Congratulations to Cem Oezdemir who has been elected co-chairman of the German Green Party. It's the party's top political post. His victory makes him the highest-ranking German politician of Turkish descent. Turkish immigrants and their descendants number more than 2.5 million and make up 3% of Germany's total population.

I woke up Sunday morning in my hotel in Istanbul to find this article on the front page of the Turkish Daily News, the most popular English language daily here.

The article explains how Oezdemir employed many of President-elect Obama's campaign tactics.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 04:57:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Demographics of Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethnic Diversity Compared

  • England - 84.7% Indigenous, 15.3% Ethnic Minority
  • Germany - 91.5% Indigenous, 8.5% Ethnic Minority
  • Italy - 94.8% Indigenous, 5.2% Ethnic Minority
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 06:52:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At least for Germany, that's definitely wrong. Citizens are just 91.2% -- and there was a major wave of taking on citizenship when the Schröder government changed the rules.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it looked a bit strange to me... but I couldn't find anything else quickly. Any idea how much it is wrong by?

I made the post mostly WRT the Obamamania, and a couple of % is not a big deal in the European figures... "Ethnic Minority" in the US is up around the 25-30% region (again there are lots of definitional problems) so it's a reminder that the societies exist in different situations...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:32:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no time to do a search; but indeed I do expect citizen ethnic minorities to be around 5% at most.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I can tell, the Wikipedia statistics actually differentiate between indigenous (ethnic minority or not) and non-indigenous ethnic minority. For Germany, they include the Dutch as an non-indigenous ethnic minority, while the Danish seem to be in the indigenous category. This makes direct comparison with the U.S. even harder.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:40:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In general, that may be the case, but the part Metatone quoted is unsourced, undifferentiated, and in conflict with data given in the text prior to it.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Demographics of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As officially stated by the French government and 2001 French Census reports on the ethnological origins of the French people. Note the French government does not officially classify people by race or ethnicity, in order to encourage integration, assimilation and patriotic unity of all French people regardless of ethnic and national origins as policy since the French Revolution.


An estimate of 10 million French citizens or about one-fifth of the population is of ethnic or national non-French origins. Of European ethnicity, the most prolific are the Italians who make up approximately 10 percent of the population in France. [14] This was due to the most part of Italian immigration stemming from the 16th to the early 20th century. As a result some 10% of French people have some distant or recent Italian origins. Other large European groups are Germans, Spaniards, Portuguese, Polish, and Greek. Also, due to more recent immigration, a total of 3 - 4 million Arab-Berber people inhabit France.

The 2008 estimates are: 84% French, 7% North African, 7% Other Europeans.


The largest immigrant group in the Netherlands are Germans, and in terms of ethnicity, nth generation Indonesian immigrants are now counted as Dutch. It's quite hard to get the official statistics.

Talking about Europe as a single group here is rather nonsensical. There are very different traditions. Simply put, Germany remembers its past with race relations largely in the context of national sin, whereas France takes pride in principles that it sees as foundational. Both responses can cause a trend towards greater equality.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nanne:
Talking about Europe as a single group here is rather nonsensical.

Definitely true... but it the IHT who goes around saying "Obama could never happen in Europe" and implying "the US is superior on race integration, as the Obama election shows."

I just attempt to highlight (in the rush of that kind of thing from the IHT) that the new "non-white" President comes out of a much different "ethnic minority" context, purely in terms of numbers, or "pool of population to draw candidates from", than exists in most European countries.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 08:08:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's make it clear there: when they say "minorities" that do not get elected enough in France, they mean "of darker skin".

So comparing the percentage of with-a-non-French-grandparent to the percentage of blacks, asians or latinos in USA is disingenuous.
There are indeed not enough representatives of recent minorities in France, but there is one major reason that reinforces the fact: they are recent. It's exceptional that the first generation goes into politics, especially when the immigrants were workers.

There are very few second generation Algerians of Obama's age in France, for example. Yet Obama needed all of Republican incompetence to get there, despite blacks having been there in great numbers for a couple of centuries.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 08:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With the power of the publicity he has gained in challenging German politics, Özdemir has a high chance to share the Green Party leadership with female candidate Claudia Roth as a result of this weekend's party congress, say analysts.

LOL. What astute analysts. For a sole candidate, with high support within the party from well before even running for the position, one really needs anonymous analysts to say so...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:32:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
German MP Heilmann capitulates in German Wikipedia dispute - News - heise open source UK

Following massive protests at the blocking of the wikipedia.de web site, the German MP Lutz Heilmann announced on Sunday he was withdrawing his injunction against Wikipedia. But the legal dispute isn't all over yet.

Heilmann took out a temporary restraining order against the Wikimedia Germany association on the grounds that an article about him contained false accusations. Now that the "false and vilifying content", constituting "an invasion of his personal privacy", has largely been removed from the relevant article, he says, he has told Wikimedia e.V. he will be taking no further legal steps and that links to Wikipedia content via de.wikipedia.org can be reestablished. He had found the legal route problematic, he explained, because the structure of Wikipedia meant that other users were being affected, and that had not been his intention. He would however be taking further action against certain individuals.

After the blocking of wikipedia.de, Wikipedia authors made some revisions to the article about Heilmann. They came to the conclusion that many sections objected to by Heilmann, a qualified lawyer, including speculation about his involvement in an online sex mail-order firm, and about internal party disputes about him, actually did not belong in the article. Heilmann did not protest against mention of his having worked for the former East German Ministry for State Security.


This was a rather odd case (more so because only the entry point wikipedia.de was blocked). But after a few days it's already over.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 06:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
SPECIAL FOCUS - Finances and G20
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:30:09 PM EST
Chavez dismisses G-20 summit, plans to convene his allies -- OrlandoSentinel.com
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) _ Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is planning to hold his own summit to counter a meeting of the so-called Group of 20 industrialized and developing countries this weekend in Washington.

Chavez says he'll invite the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas trade bloc, known as ALBA, and members of the Petrocaribe oil initiative to discuss the world financial crisis.

The two groups include more than 18 Caribbean and Latin American nations.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He should invite China and India and Malaysia and several other large Southern countries as well. The hope of the world is that growth in other parts will take in resources that were otherwise sucked up by the US.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:48:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
G20 Leaders Pledge Fiscal Boost at Emergency Summit | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 16.11.2008
At an emergency summit in Washington, leaders from the world's 20 top economies have agreed on an action plan to better regulate global financial markets and halt a global economic slide.

The measures agreed to at the meeting include a call for beefing up regulation of the world's financial system, bolstering government spending to spur economic growth and reforming international financial institutions.

 

"We are determined to enhance our cooperation and work together to restore global growth and achieve needed reforms in the world's financial systems," said the Group of 20 (G20) leaders, which included the world's advanced economies as well as the leading emerging economies. The G20 represents 85 percent of the global economy.

 

The group committed to using "fiscal measures to stimulate domestic demand to rapid effect," while delegating regulation to "national regulators" instead of organizing a coordinated stimulus package.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Second G20 summit planned for London - Business News, Business - The Independent

World leaders pledged yesterday to cut taxes and boost government spending to drag their economies out of recession, and to begin work on a new system for regulating the battered global financial system.

The heads of 20 countries, meeting in Washington, endorsed a series of broad goals to fend off future economic calamities and to revive economic growth. They are expected to reconvene in London in April, with the incoming US President, Barack Obama, to decide on longer-term measures. "We must lay the foundation for reform to help ensure that a global crisis, such as this one, does not happen again," the leaders said in a joint communiqué issued after the conclusion of the G20's emergency two-day economic summit.

Gordon Brown called the deal a "road map" to pull the world out of the credit crisis and predicted that participating countries will, in the coming weeks, unveil packages of tax cuts or spending programmes designed to stimulate their economies. If all 20 governments, accounting for 90 per cent of the world's GDP, acted in concert, he said, the effect on the world economy would be magnified. Among other things, leaders agreed to reform international financial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund to help developing countries weather the economic storm. And they promised to restart a round of international trade talks moribund since July.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ooh. I wonder what will be on the menu?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:43:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL, we seem to be of like mind. I was thinking the same and wondering if they will use the opportunity to taste more $500.- wines.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:51:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That exactly is the ONLY serious question we can ask...
by vbo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:16:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Nomad on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 04:37:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
World leaders promise joint economic effort - International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON: Facing the gravest economic crisis in decades, the leaders of 20 countries agreed Saturday to work together to revive their economies, but they put off thornier decisions about how to overhaul financial regulations until next year, providing a serious early challenge for the Obama administration.

Though the countries' stimulus packages were cast as ambitious steps, they mainly reflected measures that the countries were already undertaking to respond to the crisis. What remains to be seen is whether, working with a new White House, the leaders will cast aside their political and economic differences to embrace more radical changes, including far-reaching but fiercely debated proposals to overhaul regulation.

The group planned its next meeting for April 30, 101 days after President-elect Barack Obama is sworn into office.

Obama, who sent emissaries but did not attend at the meeting, will find common ground with the leaders in his support of a further stimulus program in the United States -- something President George W. Bush opposes. The group called for more fiscal measures to cushion the blow of a downturn that is hitting rich and poor countries.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:34:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brown claims G20 success as world leaders agree tax and interest rate cuts - Times Online

Gordon Brown claimed that world leaders have agreed a "route map to global economic recovery" at the conclusion of the G20 summit in Washington yesterday.

The leaders of the world's 20 leading economies promised to instruct their ministers to seek a new Doha trade deal by the end of the year and to co-ordinate interest rate and tax cuts to soften the severity of the global recession.

They also agreed new international regulations of banks to be finalised at a second summit, possibly in the UK, in March next year.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Leaders Temper Finance Reform Rhetoric | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 16.11.2008
European leaders said the emergency finance summit in Washington was a success, even though the resulting action plan was less drastic than some of their original suggestions.

The measures agreed to at the meeting include a call for beefing up regulation of the world's financial system, bolstering government spending to spur economic growth and reforming international financial institutions.

 

"We are determined to enhance our cooperation and work together to restore global growth and achieve needed reforms in the world's financial systems," said the Group of 20 (G20) leaders, which included the world's advanced economies as well as the leading emerging economies. The G20 represents 85 percent of the global economy.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"We are determined to enhance our cooperation and work together to restore global growth and achieve needed reforms in the world's financial systems," said the Group of 20 (G20) leaders

Does anybody really believe they are capable of doing this?Or even willing?
by vbo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo:
Does anybody really believe they are capable of doing this?Or even willing?

sure, as long as 'reform' means free market principles lower taxes for their rich friends, a shrewd decision made while quaffing $500 bottles of wine.

never mind, supersarko will have them all singing 'bella ciao' after the brandy...

the 'obama effect' dontchaknow...

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 11:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Europe | Crisis squeezes Croat Christmas

The Croatian government has banned Christmas and New Year parties in the public sector because of the global financial crisis.

State-run firms and organisations have also been told that they won't be allowed to dip into their funds to buy Christmas presents.

The ban follows a proposal to freeze public-sector salaries next year.

Prime Minister Ivo Sanader said there was no need for panic, but the country had to be serious.

... and this Christmas
"For that goal we forbid buying of Christmas and New Year's gifts as well as organising of Christmas and New Year's receptions," said Mr Sanader.

"I believe that with the proposed measures ... we can avoid a deeper crisis within the next year," he added.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Capitalism - the grinch that stole Christmas.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This really looks like them...old mentality...like this is going to save them.And who are they to BUN it?They may cut on funds but BUN the parties and gifts...
It just says how "serious" (and) little people are...
by vbo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
G-20 mostly avoids the thornier questions - International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON: Leaders of the Group of 20 nations headed back to their home countries Sunday to continue work on reviving their economies, leaving no clear direction for the thornier questions of overhauling financial regulation that President-elect Barack Obama of the United States will have to address.

While the group put on a strong united front during its summit meeting here Saturday in the face of a global crisis, members delayed any top-level decisions, including far-reaching but hotly debated proposals on overhauling financial regulation, until the 101st day of the incoming Obama administration.

The group planned its next meeting for April 30, months after Obama was scheduled to be sworn into office.

The measures announced by the G-20 on Saturday, though cast as ambitious reforms, mainly reflected steps that the countries were already undertaking to grapple with the crisis. What remains to be seen is whether, working with Obama's new White House, the G-20 leaders will be able to put aside their political and economic differences to embrace more radical changes.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
G20 Statement, Resolutions & Agenda | Blooberg | 15 Nov 2008

The following is a reformatted version of the full text of the statement released today by the leaders of the Group of 20 developed and emerging-market nations after meeting in Washington: ...

Commitment to an Open Global Economy

  1. We recognize that these reforms will only be successful if grounded in a commitment to free market principles, including the rule of law, respect for private property, open trade and investment, competitive markets, and efficient, effectively regulated financial systems. These principles are essential to economic growth and prosperity and have lifted millions out of poverty, and have significantly raised the global standard of living. Recognizing the necessity to improve financial sector regulation, we must avoid over-regulation that would hamper economic growth and exacerbate the contraction of capital flows, including to developing countries.  ...

  2. We are mindful of the impact of the current crisis on developing countries, particularly the most vulnerable. We reaffirm the importance of the Millennium Development Goals*, the development assistance commitments we have made, and urge both developed and emerging economies to undertake commitments consistent with their capacities and roles in the global economy. In this regard, we reaffirm the development principles agreed at the 2002 United Nations Conference on Financing for Development in Monterrey, Mexico, which emphasized country ownership and mobilizing all sources of financing for development.

  3. We remain committed to addressing other critical challenges such as energy security and climate change, food security, the rule of law, and the fight against terrorism, poverty and disease. ...

FRB, CFTC, SEC consolidate global CDS settlement | Bloomberg | 14 Nov 2008

CME Group, Intercontinental Exchange Inc. of Atlanta, NYSE Euronext and Eurex have each submitted proposals to run a clearinghouse, a central body that would back trades in the unregulated market. Authorities are now conducting "detailed" on-site reviews of risk management functions, the regulators said in a joint statement with the U.S. Treasury today. ...

Chicago-based CME, Intercontinental Exchange and NYSE Euronext are vying for control of a global market that could generate as much as $400 million in revenue a year, Keefe Bruyette & Woods analyst Niamh Alexander estimates. "Bringing transparency to this market is vitally important,'' SEC Chairman Christopher Cox said in a statement today. "The virtually unregulated over-the-counter market in credit-default swaps has played a significant role in the credit crisis."  ...

CME is regulated by the CFTC. Intercontinental Exchange has set up its clearing plan as a special purpose banking entity within the state of New York that would be regulated by the Fed. Intercontinental agreed last month to buy Chicago-based Clearing Corp., which is owned by nine major banks. Eurex is part owned by Deutsche Boerse AG.

The agreement between the Fed, the CFTC and the SEC, while not altering their oversight mandates, seeks to ensure consistent rules for clearinghouses that fall under the domain of one or the other. It also would give the SEC better access to market data to police market fraud and manipulation.

Menu for the Dinner in Honor of the Summit on Financial Markets and the World Economy | White House | 14 Nov 2008

Fruitwood-smoked Quail with Quince Gastrique
Quinoa Risotto

Landmark Chardonnay "Damaris Reserve" 2006

Thyme-roasted Rack of Lamb
Tomato, Fennel and Eggplant Fondue
Chanterelle Jus

Shafer Cabernet "Hillside Select" 2003

Lolla Rosa, Red Oak and Endive
Cider Vinaigrette
Baked Vermont Brie with Walnut Crostini

Pear Torte
Huckleberry Sauce

Chandon Étoile Rosé


--------
* N.B. online mark-up language S.2433

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Meanwhile:

FT.com / Companies / Aerospace & Defence - European companies launch supply chain rescues

Some of Europe's largest companies are taking extraordinary measures to help out suppliers stricken by the credit crisis by offering cash to prop them up.

Groups from Daimler in cars, EADS in aerospace to Safran in defence are worried that their own financial health could be affected by a collapse of a supplier and are considering using their own liquidity to support smaller companies.

Paul Lester, chief executive of UK defence company VT Group, said he had told his top 100 suppliers that they should come to him for financial help. "If you get into financial difficulties don't delay, but come and talk to us. You are probably better talking to us than banks because banks aren't really doing their jobs right now and we can help," he said.

Daimler and BMW, the world's two largest luxury carmakers, have both hinted they could buy suppliers if they get into difficulties. Dieter Zetsche, Daimler's chief executive, said he was already helping some suppliers with cash and added "300,000 jobs were at risk in the industry" if banks continued to tighten credit.

The supply chain for many large manufacturers is coming under increasing stress as their small and mid-sized suppliers see credit becoming more expensive or even withdrawn. Several small suppliers have gone bankrupt in recent weeks, including one to VT Group and several in the retail sector.



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:34:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Intersting... to refer back to my recent diary - this is effectively companies transitioning back towards vertical integration from the "outsourced" model in order to create more stability/resilience.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 06:59:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]


"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:40:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A Strange Shortage Illustrates The Global Economy : NPR

... The North Dakota farmer, Bob Sinner, says he is suddenly getting more business than ever from overseas. But just as he was gearing up to sell more wheat and soybeans abroad, he discovered he couldn't find enough shipping containers -- the big, colorful steel boxes seen on ships and trains.

The mystery of those missing containers reveals the interdependence of producers, consumers and economies around the world. <...>

Americans aren't buying as much, which means they aren't importing as much. This is how Hagovsky [a woman who just bought a new house but refuses to buy stuff to furnish it, because she is worried about her economic situation] -- and probably most of us -- are linked to Sinner. We usually buy rugs, couches, teddy bears and shoes, and all those goods ride over from Asia or Europe in containers. And that's how Sinner gets his containers: They have to come from overseas so that he can fill them up with soybeans and wheat and then send them back.

So Akemi in Japan might want to buy Sinner's cheap soy products. But if Hagovsky doesn't take out that credit card and furnish her house, Sinner can't get his stuff to Japan or anywhere else.

"Well, we're all consumers, we all have our personal lives that we have to take care of," Sinner says. "I don't fault those consumers for those decisions -- that's just a function of our economy."



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:17:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:30:28 PM EST
Obama starts to build a 'team of rivals' - Americas, World - The Independent
Leonard Doyle reports on the way that America's president-elect is set to follow Abraham Lincoln's example and recruit even his most bitter opponent

When Abraham Lincoln appointed his secretary of state, he picked his greatest opponent in the battle for the presidency, who just happened to be an able and popular senator from New York. Just like president-elect Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, in fact.

Mr Obama's greatest rival within his own Democratic Party for the White House travelled secretly to Chicago last week, and was all but offered a top job in his administration. She was first spied at the airport. Later, after Mr Obama's cavalcade left his anonymous steel and glass headquarters, a second convoy of Secret Service 4x4s was seen departing. As a former First Lady, Mrs Clinton never has to drive herself, but it was a giveaway for reporters camped outside the building.

The Obama camp, which almost never leaks, has made it clear that Mrs Clinton is in the running for the foreign policy slot or for some other top position in the next administration. Bringing her on board would be as clear an indication as any that Mr Obama intends to build an administration of political superstars for the challenges of the post-Bush era. One of Mr Obama's aides yesterday described him as "self-confident enough to want to send a message to the world about America and all that it can be - and Hillary Clinton as secretary of state would do that".

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of Mr Obama's aides yesterday described him as "self-confident enough to want to send a message to the world about America and all that it can be

Oh c'mon! His choices as for now show very clearly that he is going to be another puppet.Did he choose ANYONE yet that is not from Clinton's team or worked for Clinton's administration???
Oh what a change!
by vbo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, a very wise Democratic political operator once said, "It's better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in."

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:46:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, the nomination of Mona Sutphen as deputy chief of staff might be a good omen...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:01:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just as a historical note (having read Team of Rivals earlier this year);
Lincoln included all of his primary election counter-candidates and others of high(er) esteem in the country as well;
Seward as Secretary of State,
Chase as Secretary of the Treasury,
Bates as Attorney General,
Stanton as War Department Secretary.

The first two were the candidates who couldn't get the required 50% to get the nomination. They were well regarded in their circles, but despised for real or imagined slights that made it impossible to get over 50%...again, not unlike Hillary. Lincoln had captured the imagination of the East Coast movers and shakers earlier with some speeches in the area and, the rest is history.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 04:43:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
War on Taliban sparks refugee crisis - Times Online

Hundreds of thousands of once prosperous Pakistani villagers are stranded in freezing tented refugee camps after being compelled to leave home by their own forces in a ferocious battle against the Taliban along the Afghan border.

Yesterday 300,000 Pakistani men, women and children, many of them driven from farms in the Bajaur region, were sheltering in eight makeshift camps on the outskirts of their nearest city, Peshawar.

In one of the camps, Sheikh Yassin, home to 13,000 newly displaced Pakistanis, five children died of hypothermia on one night last week. They had been weakened by diarrhoea rife among children in the camp, which has no sanitation.

Aid officials had hoped to transfer some refugees to Jalozai, an area near Peshawar that was once an Afghan refugee camp, but on Friday they had to abandon their plans because of security concerns.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah where are now UN and EU to make a big deal of this, like they did on Kosovo??? 300 000 refugees, children dieing...where are pictures on CNN, BBC and around Europe's TVs every half of hour rising tensions and emotionally weakening public? Hypocrites!
by vbo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
W.T.F.?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is so nice to be preemptively fighting for the fatherlandhomeland, the homeland, the homeland.

We are so warm and comfy now in the homeland, the homeland, the homeland, USA.

Daisycutters and Depleted Uranium for the homeland, the homeland, the homeland

Wars are won on CNN in the homeland, the homeland USA.

So proud I am of my tax dollars in the homeland, 3thefuckhundred thousand refugees for the homeland, we fight them there so they can't take our jobs here, a noun a verb 9/11 for the homeland, USA

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:43:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Security for any Afghan Taliban talks, Karzai says | TPM: News Pages | Talking Points Memo

KABUL, Nov 16 (Reuters) - Afghan President Hamid Karzai said on Sunday he would guarantee security for Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar if he ever wanted to negotiate and said Western allies should remove him or leave if they disagreed with that.

With the Taliban insurgency spreading seven years after the hardline Islamists were forced from power, the possibility of talks with more moderate Taliban leaders is increasingly being considered, both in Afghanistan and among its allies.

The Afghan government says it is willing to talk to anyone who recognises the constitution.

A tentative first step towards talks was taken in September when a group of pro-government Afghan officials and former Taliban officials met in Saudi Arabia for discussions on how to end the conflict.

But the Taliban have rejected any suggestion of talks as long as foreign troops remain. Karzai, who visited the United States and Britain last week, said that Taliban condition was unacceptable.

However, Karzai said he would guarantee the safety of fugitive Taliban leader Mullah Omar if he ever wanted to talk peace.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:20:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hamid Karzai is a dead man walking...the only thing that keeps him alive is NATO military...as long as they stay there...He must feel it's not going to be for long and that's why he wants to negotiate.
by vbo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 08:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pact, Approved in Iraq, Sets Time for U.S. Pullout - NYTimes.com

BAGHDAD -- Iraq's cabinet on Sunday overwhelmingly approved a proposed security agreement that calls for a full withdrawal of American forces from the country by the end of 2011. The cabinet's decision brings a final date for the departure of American troops a significant step closer after more than five and a half years of war.

The proposed pact must still be approved by Iraq's Parliament, in a vote scheduled to take place in a week. But leaders of some of the largest parliamentary blocs expressed confidence that with the backing of most Shiites and Kurds they had enough support to ensure its approval.

Twenty-seven of the 28 cabinet ministers who were present at the two-and-a-half-hour session voted in favor of the pact. Nine ministers were absent. The nearly unanimous vote was a victory for the dominant Shiite party and its Kurdish partners. Widespread Sunni opposition could doom the proposed pact even if it has the votes to pass, as it would call into question whether there was a true national consensus, which Shiite leaders consider essential.

The proposed agreement, which took nearly a year to negotiate with the United States, not only sets a date for American troop withdrawal, but puts new restrictions on American combat operations in Iraq starting Jan. 1 and requires an American military pullback from urban areas by June 30. Those hard dates reflect a significant concession by the departing Bush administration, which had been publicly averse to timetables.

Iraq also obtained a significant degree of jurisdiction in some cases over serious crimes committed by Americans who are off duty and not on bases.



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:37:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All US forces will leave by 2011, Baghdad cabinet agrees | World news | The Guardian

In a development that caught coalition officials by surprise, Iraq's cabinet yesterday ended one year of protracted negotiations by agreeing to a series of US amendments to draft documents. All but one cabinet minister present at the meeting committed to the agreement.

On Saturday the leading Shia cleric, Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani dropped his opposition to the deal, in a shift that some observers believe paved the way for a Shia bloc in the cabinet to vote in its favour.



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:37:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
U.S. Ban on Masks Upsets Iraqi Interpreters - washingtonpost.com

BAGHDAD -- The U.S. military has barred Iraqi interpreters working with American troops in Baghdad from wearing ski masks to disguise themselves, prompting some to resign and others to bare their faces even though they fear it could get them killed.

Many interpreters employed by the U.S. government and Western companies in Iraq do everything they can to avoid being recognized on the job because extremists have tortured and killed Iraqis accused of collaborating with the enemy.

"The terps are the number one wanted here," said A.J., a 36-year-old military interpreter, using the shorthand for his profession. "More than the Americans. More than anyone."

[...]

Many Iraqis, however, fear the relative calm won't last long. To them, ordering interpreters to work without masks suggests that some top U.S. officials are taking an unrealistically rosy view of the security situation in Baghdad, which remains a dangerous city.



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:31:07 PM EST
Energy-Saving Bulbs to Light Up the Future | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 16.11.2008
Almost 20 percent of all the energy produced in the world is used to power lights. Energy-saving bulbs could help -- though so far the ones on the market aren't quite up to par.

The potential is enormous. If all the traditional light bulbs in the world were replaced with energy-saving ones, lighting energy use could be cut by 40 percent. By 2030, 16 billion tons of CO2 would have been prevented from escaping into the atmosphere. That's according to a new study released by the renowned Worldwatch Institute.

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift:  Traditional bulbs only turn five percent of the electricity they use into light

The use of energy saving bulbs is on the rise worldwide. Since the beginning of the century, use has tripled to over four billion, and some countries are calling for more. Australia has even gone so far as to say that after October 2009 the sale of traditional light bulbs will be outlawed.

Manufacturers say energy-saving bulbs have an efficiency factor of 25 percent -- five times that of a traditional light bulb. Energy saving bulbs also last longer, and experts predict that those who use them save up to 100 euros ($125) per lamp over a 10-year period.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:33:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Energy-Saving Bulbs to Light Up the Future | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 16.11.2008

But not everyone is singing the praises of the little bulbs that could. The German ecological product review "Oekotest" put 16 models through a rigorous set of tests and came to a sobering conclusion: Most energy saving light bulbs aren't as bright as they should be.

According to the magazine, the light quality was poor, sometimes flickered and didn't last as long as manufacturers claimed. The lamps were also found to contain poisonous mercury. In the end, "Oekotest" said energy-saving lamps were hardly recommendable. 



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is mostly a ridiculous set of arguments, at least on the surface. Fluorescent bulbs last a LOT longer than incandescent bulbs--although perhaps not quite as long as claimed. They save a LOT of energy and can be bought with various brightness and color specifications. These comparative results are hardly valid reasons to avoid them.

The bulbs do have mercury in them, which is a significant concern if you break them. Don't break them. Do recycle them.

by asdf on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 09:31:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do standard-issue fluorescent bulbs have gotten rid of the long heating up time ? It can be very annoying in some particular rooms (say, the toilet...)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 09:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They appear to.
My kitchen one is 6 years old, low price, and indeed takes a long while (almost a minute) to reach full brightness.

The entrance and bathroom (as in bath room, American readers) ones seem instantaneous.

In the living room there are two. One looks pretty much instantaneous. Strangely, the other one seems to vary, it sometimes take a while, but the immediate light is quite enough to be useful.

Now, none of those was sold as having no significant heating up time. You can get some of those, but they don't have quite the same energy saving so I didn't.
On the other hand, I'm not sure about the power conversions. The manufacturer will claim it's as bright as a so many watts incandescent bulb, and sometimes I'm not too sure it's quite true.

I've never had to change one.

LEDs are brightest of all, by some distance, and last forever.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 09:46:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Remote Finnish city grows accustomed to nuclear power - International Herald Tribune

RAUMA, Finland: The café where Paivi Alanko-Rehelma serves coffee and smoked fish stands almost in the shadow of a sprawling building site on the island of Olkiluoto where Finland is erecting a nuclear power plant, the third on the island and the fifth in Finland in the past 30 years.

Like many of her neighbors who have grown accustomed to nuclear energy, Alanko-Rehelma makes no objections to the new reactor. "It's now safe, it saves nature, it's cheaper," she said.

No one is certain when the plant, which has been plagued by construction delays, will be finished. But whenever it does begin operating, the reactor will be a new cog in the works of Finland's national energy policy, which seeks to diversify the country's sources of energy and reduce its historical reliance on Russia for cheap electricity.

The plant is also part of a global trend, as the prospects of nuclear power rise amid concerns about the warming effect of carbon dioxide emissions to generate electricity.

The Finns are going first-class, building what is called a European Pressurized Reactor, the latest model, which is billed as the safest and most powerful nuclear reactor ever designed. It is the product of a consortium of French and German engineering companies.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fruit and veg boom needed to feed Britain | Science | The Observer
In the face of climate change, food experts call for more home-grown fruit and less grain for cattle

It is an image worthy of a Keats poem or a Constable landscape: great orchards bursting with fruit, fields crammed with ripening vegetables and hillsides covered with sheep and cattle.

But this is no dream of long-gone rural glories. It is a vision of the kind of countryside that Britain may need if it is to survive the impact of climate change and higher oil prices, according to leading agricultural experts.

They have warned that only a total revolution in the nation's food industry can save Britain from serious shortages of staples as world oil production peaks, the climate continues to heat up, the population grows and our dietary needs continue to evolve.

In turn that means a complete shake-up in the way we farm the countryside. At present Britain imports more than 90 per cent of the fruit it consumes.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In 'Wonderland', Scenes Of Soviet Dissolution : NPR

[Jason] Eskenazi found few restrictions in those early days. He traveled thousands of miles, through seven time zones and entered factories and prisons in Siberia. Though he didn't speak Russian initially, he quickly learned the words for, "Where is the wedding?" or "Where is the funeral?" so he could enter into ritual and community life.

In one photo, a milkmaid with mud-stained shoes in Kazakhstan looks out dreamily as she milks a cow. The next photo features a young woman of similar features and age, but well dressed and dancing with a young man at a waltz competition. It's almost as if the first picture is dreaming the second.

At another point in the book, a woman jumps up in a park. She almost seems in flight, like the dreams of space flight that many people associate with the Soviet Union. But the next picture is totally ironic: A woman is dusting off a stuffed dog in a museum. It is, in fact, one of the dogs that went into space.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:30:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
not how i envisioned post-Soviet society.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a cliche - but it sort of shows the common humanity.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:28:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
KLATSCH
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:31:30 PM EST
Carla Bruni `stirs the Che Guevara' inside Nicolas Sarkozy - Times Online
A shift to the left by the French president is worrying supporters, who pin the blame on his wife

Bewildered supporters of Nicolas Sarkozy, the centre-right French president, are wondering what to do. Should they blame the global financial crisis or the influence of Carla Bruni, his glamorous wife, for what sounds like a lurch to the political left?

Rarely does a day pass without "Sarko" displaying signs of an ideological rethink. He has attacked "fat cats" and the "dictatorship of the market". He declared that "laissez-faire capitalism is over" and has called for a cap on executive pay and an end to "golden parachutes".

The transformation is striking given that Sarkozy, famed for his "zero tolerance" policing as interior minister, was once derided on the left as a dangerous right-winger.

These days he is caricatured on one internet website as a French Che Guevara. Martin Schulz, German leader of the socialists in the European parliament, congratulated him (mockingly) for "speaking like a real European socialist".

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't pay attention to what Sarko says but to what Sarko does.
  • Back to a more progressive taxation (and a repeal of the "fiscal shield")? Nope...
  • Scale back the police state, spying on the citizens and deployments in other African and Middle-Eastern countries? Neither...
  • Amend labor laws to the benefit of the employees rather than the employers? In your dreams...
  • Stop blaming the dark-skinned foreigners and deporting undocumented immigrants? You gotta be kidding...

As we say in France: It's not the weather vane that's been turning, it's the wind...

The neo-lib mantra was selling well until last year, so there you had Sarko. It's out of fashion today? No biggie: I'll give you the "European socialist", bitches...

"French Che Guevara"? Only in the fantasy world of Rupert's galaxy...


Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 04:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...Not to mention the "Cherchez la femme" angle... Really pathetic.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 04:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Vladimir Putin backs UK's Eurovision song contest entry - Telegraph
Andrew Lloyd Webber has won backing from an unlikely source in his attempt to turn around the UK's fortunes in the Eurovision song contest.

On a fact-finding mission to eastern Europe, the region which has dominated the contest in recent years, the composer met Vladimir Putin - and the Russian Prime Minister promised to pick up the phone to vote for the UK entry in next year's contest.

Lord Lloyd Webber said: "At least we have got one vote, from Mr Putin."

Despite his power at the Kremlin, Putin's vote will be counted just like that of any other Russian television viewer.

In recent years Eurovision has been dogged by accusations of "bloc-voting", which this year led presenter Terry Wogan to threaten walking out on the competition he first hosted 35 years ago.

This year's winning Russian entry, Believe by Dima Bilan, received the maximum 12 points from former Soviet states Armenia, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine. The country's success means that next year's contest will be staged in Moscow. The UK entry, Andy Abraham's song Even If, only received votes from Ireland and San Marino, placing him joint last with Poland and Germany.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hehhh...it's side effect of having dismantled USSR and ex YU...
People still love each others songs. Even after bitter wars on Balkan music industry there does not know borders. Some stars that during wars were very nationalistic (on all sides) now gladly make concerts on "enemy territory"...and we never stopped listening our favorite songs no matter where they come from.
On the other hand there is nothing significant really happening in English speaking zone , especially not in Eurovision genre ...
by vbo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 08:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i find it funny too, it's becoming a european tradition to sink britain's offering as low as possible.

fully deserved, imo.

if the beatles came out tomorrow, they'd never make onto eurovision (sounds better than euroaudio).

there's a hint there, actually, it's not about music, it's about visual razzmatazz set to noise.

still, while (commercial) brit music sucks something terrible, neuro-vision plumbs new lows all around.

puts the 'low' in low-brow, in fact. or 'lowest common denominator' in schlock.

the awful truth..it's an irony-free zone, enter at your own auditory peril, abandon hope all who enter here, qvatch macht frei.

it makes san remo look good!

pippo baudo for euro cultcha ministar!

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 11:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
breathlessly waiting for poemless to comment on this tidbit!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 04:14:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think of the return of Noir Désir on every radio station over the week-end?

For non-French readers, Noir Désir is a well-known rock band in France, with strong lefty political views, often expressed int their songs (including the last one we hear over the wee-end) - but their lead singer, Bertand Cantat, has only recently coming out of jail for killing his girlfriend, actress Marie Trintignant, in a fight (which happened in Lithuania) a couple of years ago.

My wife is outraged that this guy would find it normal to come back on stage, and to pontificate about the current crisis in a new song, rather than making himself forgotten after beating up his wife.

what do you think?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:13:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, former prisoners have paid their dues, and at one point are supposed to be reintegrated in wider society - that's the whole point of limited jail terms over banishments.

And at least his crime is not wholly relevant to his domain of activities - compare to, say, Carignon becoming president of the Grenoble UMP again after going to jail for corruption...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:28:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but this is not just about reintegrating society, this is about being a highly visible member of it - and a worshipped role-model for a very impressionalbe segment of population (teenagers).

I have no problem with him coming out of jail, and starting his life again - but giving lessons about society in public?? That's a bit different.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure he is all that much a role model for teenagers - Noir Désir fans have been getting quite older in the last few years... As for giving lessons about society in public, everyone is able to give one's opinions on society - that's the point of equality. I'm no fan of purging felons from voting rolls. Those who want to listen to him, will.

Let's also say that quite a few top world politicians are responsible for far more deaths than a single one (and were hopefully not drunk nor drugged up when they took their decisions)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:44:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whether he'll be seen as a role-model is far from sure. Do you think his visibility cannot be for the better? What if he were to use his tragedy to tell teenagers that violence is bad, always? Would that be bad?

Now, lessons about society -his fault had nothing to do with "society". He was not a fraud. He was violent. This has nothing to do with politics or the economy. Would you say that an Enron trader should be banned from writing a book about making a marriage work despite a heavy workload? I wouldn't feel that his actions invalidate his political opinions.
And, hopefully, not merely because I mostly agree with him.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:51:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To echo linca, I think it comes down to your philosophy of "crime and punishment."

If he had been a banker, should he have been prevented from re-entering banking as a career following his jail term?

As for the question of political content being related to personal integrity - that's a complicated one, but I personally think that we cannot expect perfection from political commentators.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He made a horrible mistake (probably two: he could have called for help sooner) under the influence of drugs (both of them under the influence), but I don't think he is a horrible man.

He did pay his dues (had he been tried in France he would probably have got a shorter sentence). I don't for a moment think that he has forgotten what he has done. I don't have a problem with him resuming his activities. He happened to be a singer, and a singer is a public person. It's not like he is using his fame from killing Marie Trintignant to suddenly release a record.

No, I don't have a problem. But I expect he'll face questions and I would hope that he replies humbly, with a message that one should stop one's own violence from the start because even a "mundane" blow can become tragedy.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:43:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, he is not allowed to talk publicly about the crime, because of his parole (see Action Directe's Jean Marc Rouillan sent back to jail after returning too openly to politics. What are your opinions on that ?).

And I'm not so sure he'd have got a shorter sentence in France. I have the (maybe wrong) impressions that Central and Eastern Europe doesn't have harsh penalties (like life without parole, or even life terms) for murders and the kind. I might be wrong on that, though.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:48:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are life terms for murder, even life without parole (though usually the President can still give parole). Check Wikipedia.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:57:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In France, he would have got mitigating circumstances from the fact that they were stoned, for one, and he would never have been tried for deliberate homicide (that's the main thing). But Lithuania had no concept of involuntary homicide.

Now, he doesn't need to speak about the crime proper to deliver a message of rehabilitation, of no-one being above nasty impulses, of the need to adress your weaknesses lest they take control of you... Besides, I doubt he'd be sent back for saying something like "not a day passes when I am not terribly sorry", or "there is no greater horror that a man can do than hurting someone who trusts him fully".
The problem with Rouillan was that, while not allowed to speak about it, he very strongly hinted that he'd happily do it again (having said that, I believe that he should be allowed to say it -but then he should also respect the terms of his parole).

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:58:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that there are some situations where there is no way to explain one version of logic within the frame of another persons. He will have to do and say a lot of great things to show your wife that he is worthy of making appropriate statements.

If he was a right-wing yahoo, I would be disappointed that he is back. But generally, I would give anyone a shot at learning and redemption.

Good luck to him.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:48:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think crimes, not even murder, should lead anyone to be shunned forever. Yes, not even spousal abuse leading to murder, etc. Being in favour of rehabilitatory, reformatory justice I don't see how I could possibly condemn the mere fact of public appearance and performance by a convicted and later released person.

On the other hand, one might be interested in what he has to say about what happened. But knowing nothing more than you say, these fact in isolation would not have me condemn him to public shunning in addition to the formal justice already metered out by the justice system.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 08:28:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand your wife. I, for one, think it's too early for him to come back on the public stage. I think he should first redeem through more anonymous achievements.

And yes, Cyrille, violence, especially domestic violence has to do with politics!

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 08:32:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for all the thoughful replies.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 09:33:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm uncomfortable with it, I agree it's too soon to resume a public career. The idea of being a performer is that not only do people like your art but there is a presumption (that I personally do not share) that your liking a person and their art says something about who you are. If you like the art of a murderer, especially one who has served so little "time", what does it say about you ?

So I think there will be issues with the audience not wanting to associate. A popular comedy performer in the UK had his career destroyed by by a rape allegation. Even tho' the charges were eventually dismissed, there was too much doubt and dubious circumstance and the public never quite forgave him enough to laugh at his jokes anymore.

I personally thinnk that being stoned is not a mitigtating factor but a compounding one. Killing somebody in a car in the UK is dangerous driving, killing someone while drunk is moving towards murder in the eyes of the public. Being stoned is still a crime. So there are two crimes here and they add, not divide.

But William Burroughs shot his wife while stoned, and most arty people (not reliable witnesses imo) seemed to think it just mde him more edgy and interesting. so what do I know ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 10:32:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen, surely you would agree that wilfully killing someone is worse than killing with no such intention?

Now, you may also take him to court for drug abuse, but surely the loss of the thought process (on both: she probably wouldn't have died but for the drugs that weakened her) means something with regard to the intention of killing, and somewhat mitigates the gravity of the crime.
There are cases where people are hallucinating so much that they kill someone without any realisation of the fact. They should be treated (and punished if you will) for their drug addiction, but surely don't deserve as much jail as a murderer who was in full possession of his mind, in full command of his actions, at the time.

Anyway, the fact remains that in France it is a mitigating circumstance, which is relevant to the fact that he served more than he would have, had he been tried in France.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 10:56:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your first sentence is correct, if I accidentaly kill someone then it is manslaughter.

But he chose to get wasted and damage his sensibilities enough to make him a danger to those around him. This is the drunk driving analogy. I understand that public sentiment in France is different from the UK where we have become sick of drunks killing friends and family and have no patience for it anymore.

So, yes he was out of it. But he chose that condition over sobriety and thus remains responsible for the outcome. Murder.

that's a british view and I was asked for my opinion. I accept that france has a different one.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The drunk driving does not hold, as he did not then drive. The problem with drunk driving is that you should not drive when you have drunk.

"I understand that public sentiment in France is different from the UK where we have become sick of drunks killing friends and family and have no patience for it anymore."

It's not about public sentiment, it's about the use of reason. Just because people have lost patience with something does not mean that the rules of logic and reason change. Otherwise, that's how you get mobs. To claim that it is murder as opposed to manslaughter is laughable. He hit her without the intention of killing, and indeed would not even have injured her if she had not been stoned herself. Abd even that he did not set out to do (unlike driving when you are drunk). He failed to contain his violence. That's all he did and it is bad enough, especially given the consequences.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 02:29:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I simply disagree and really don't think we can ever approach an understanding.

To the UK way of thinking if you volunteer to get out of your head and then commit a crime, your choice to become dangerous is not a mitigating factor but an additional fault.

you are arguing from another viewpoint. That's your privilege. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong, in this we are simply prisoners of our respective cultural backgrounds.

I return to the point I made earlier : I was asked my view and I stated it. Arguing with me isn't going to convince me. I think i have made it clear that I am not susceptible to persuasion on this point, any more than you are to mine. It's different. I now know I can get wasted and create mayhem in france with impunity, but don't you do it in the UK, you may find yourself disappointed by the lack of judicial sympathy.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 06:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It can be an additional fault on a charge of manslaughter yes.

It CANNOT be an additional fault on the charge of murder, since it invalidates the definition of murder.

This has nothing to do with cultural background, except if we consider that the statement "Black is White, War is Peace" is simply a cultural perspective.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:45:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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