Saturday Open Thread

by afew
Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 10:33:37 AM EST

Open for business


Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
than business.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 10:39:28 AM EST
but more!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 10:39:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So,is there a life without business?
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:00:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We may find out soon.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:07:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe that dose of Monet yesterday had a good effect on you Jerome. Here's another - take it easy :-)

Claude_Monet_-_Jardin_à_Sainte-Adresse-s

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:51:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the same relaxed spirit, and as a bit of compensation for the photo of the male politicos, here's a painting of two women by Mary Cassat:

cassatt.woodland-stream

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:04:09 AM EST
do you seriously think women arent going to ask impertinent questions about someone being responsible for the current situation?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
kinder, kucher, kircher!

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They prefer to be at home looking after their babies.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:20:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL, wonder where you got that idea from? :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:23:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can see one in the back row. Hi Angela !!!

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:34:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do we want women active in financial matters. Put too  many women in important financial positions and we're liable to have all kinds of problems including major defaults.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:58:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, that's funny!  (-;

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:56:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I responded to afew's comment about local food business models with a couple of things I've seen lately.

hope it's helpful

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:33:32 AM EST
Thanks, I'll look into the links a bit later.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:56:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - World leaders dine in style as they discuss financial crisis « - Blogs from CNN.com

(CNN) - The global economy may be undergoing a significant downturn, but the White House's dinner budget still appears flush with cash.

After all, world leaders who are in town to discuss the economic crisis are set to dine in style Friday night while sipping wine listed at nearly $500 a bottle.

According to the White House, tonight's dinner to kick off the G-20 summit includes such dishes as "Fruitwood-smoked Quail," "Thyme-roasted Rack of Lamb," and "Tomato, Fennel and Eggplant Fondue Chanterelle Jus."

To wash it all down, world leaders will be served Shafer Cabernet "Hillside Select" 2003, a wine that sells at $499 on Wine.com.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:37:31 AM EST
Fran:

The global economy may be undergoing a significant downturn, but the White House's dinner budget still appears flush with cash.

After all, world leaders who are in town to discuss the economic crisis are set to dine in style Friday night while sipping wine listed at nearly $500 a bottle.

There is a diary in there somewhere.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 01:11:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A national transgender organisation, or at least their esteemed leader, obviously feel our protest against Stonewall last week has upset the natural order of things. They have decided to seize back the initiative with a meeting advertised in such a way that it's obviously a rebuke to us for our impertinence (ah, do you remember when advocacy groups were on the side of those they represented ?).

So we're off for a meeting tomorrow afternoon to plan a response. I do think the peasants will be revolting soon, if we aren't already.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:42:00 AM EST
silence
more music charts

song chart memes
more music charts

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:20:35 PM EST
song chart memes
more song chart memes

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not entirely safe for non adult consumption, but have you seen the Rap graphs? on a similar theme?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Digital Equipment Corporation used to have a rule against the use of pie charts because they obscure the relationship between the quantities. Bar graphs are much better, and if you see a pie chart the first question should be "what are they trying to hide?"
by asdf on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
song chart memes
more music charts

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 02:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but it's so sanctimonious and wrong, grrrr
In France, It's Vive Le Cinéma of Denial

I really need to do that one-day back to back reading of the IHT to note all th casual French-bashing embedded there.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:34:22 PM EST
Never so happy as when steam is coming our your ears eh ? ;-)))

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:54:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome, this is getting obsessional :-) Don't even waste a day on it. With the exit of the Bush gang the antipathy will cool down, but the rivalry will persist, as suggested in this useful perspective

Both universal ? "..... If there is a distinctive edge to French-American relations, it derives not from antipathy, but rather from rivalry. ..... The American Bill of Rights and the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen were both drafted and promulgated in 1789 and -despite their formal differences and objectives- they are strikingly close in tone and purpose. .... American and France are the only countries in the world today ... that share a universal ambition. Both are prozelytizing nations, and what they are selling is their model of the good society, teh well-lived life. ..... When American politicians speak, as they have done over the centuries, of bringing liberty, democracy and opportunity to the rest of humanity, they touch a deep chord in the American people......

But France, too, has a project. It is not of course an individualistic, Protestant ambition to construct a godly community, much less facilitate "the pursuit of happiness" (a distinctively American twist on the 18th century design for human improvement, and one that never much appealed to the world-weary French). What France has lon been selling is civilization. French colonialism was promoted by its defenders and practitioners as a "civilizing mission". France cultural protectionism - l'exception culturelle, as it is presented to the skeptical free-traders in Brussels- is not just about subsidizing obscure art-house films ; it is the only way to preserve the national "patrimoine" for the benfit of mankind as a whole. ... Many French writers (and their readers) still understand themselves as offering a cultivated, civilized alternativeto what they see as the American capitalist model ; a way of life in which the state is not afraid to intervene on behalf of the collective interest, in which progressive taxation redistributes national wealth to everyone's benefit, in which the depredations of the market are mitigated by considerations of social justice. France has long been a capitalist economy, of course, but of a different sort. As in 1789, it is proposing its own distinctive path. ...

Meanwhile, it can only be hoped that the current level of calculated Francophobia in Washington and in the American media will give way to a shame-faced silence. In France, Anti-Americanism is an old story and largely irrelevant to French policymaking. .... When Americans disparage and alienate France, they do America itself a disservice. Paris may no longer be "the burning lens of Western civilization", as Koestler called it half a century ago, but it has contrived today -for the first time in many decades and largely by good fortune- to position itself as the representative of a large, if loose, coalition of nations and peoples. When Americans pursue a vendetta against France, the world is looking on. And in the eyes of the world it is America, not France that looks foolish. ..."

writes Tony Judt, from New York University, in Newsweek October 6, 2003.  



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.understandfrance.org/Paris/Documents.html

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Oh, and Judt is a Brit, in fact a fellow Londoner :-)


Tony Judt was born in London in 1948. He was educated at King's College, Cambridge, and the Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris, and has taught at Cambridge, Oxford, Berkeley, and New York University, where he is currently the Erich Maria Remarque Professor of European Studies and Director of the Remarque Institute, which is dedicated to the study of Europe and that he founded in 1995. The author or editor of eleven books, he is a frequent contributor to The New York Review of Books, the Times Literary Supplement, The New Republic, The New York Times, and many other journals in Europe and the United States.



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti (Reuters): An unemployed man who risked life and limb to pull children from the rubble of a collapsed school was celebrated as a national hero on Thursday by the impoverished Caribbean nation's president.

More than 90 people were killed in the disaster involving the La Promesse school, a ramshackle three-story building that collapsed in a slum on the outskirts of the Haitian capital.

Ronaldo Charilus, 29, said he rushed to the structure soon after it caved in last Friday.

(...)

Charilus, dubbed "Ronaldo the Hero" by the Haitian media, saved the lives of several dozen children trapped under the debris while putting his own life in almost constant danger, according to numerous eyewitness reports.



"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:54:46 PM EST
It's good to see this sort of thing being flagged up. Sometmes I feel so buried in the brutal cynicism of the political elites that I forget that simple human decency in more common.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, ... and let us not forget:
Cuba and Haiti hard hit in hurricane season


"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rarely does one get any context, an explantion of WHY Haiti is in such a  deplorable economic and social condition. Chomsky:


Putting details aside, what has happened since is eerily similar to the overthrow of Haiti's first democratic government in 1991. The Aristide government, once again, was undermined by U.S. planners, who understood, under Clinton, that the threat of democracy can be overcome if economic sovereignty is eliminated and presumably also understood that economic development will also be a faint hope under such conditions, one of the best confirmed lessons of economic history. Bush II planners are even more dedicated to undermining democracy and independence and despised Aristide and the popular organizations that swept him to power with perhaps even more passion than their predecessors. The forces that reconquered the country are mostly inheritors of the U.S.-installed army and paramilitary terrorists.
Those who are intent on diverting attention from the U.S. role will object that the situation is more complex-as is always true-and that Aristide too was guilty of many crimes. Correct, but if he had been a saint the situation would hardly have developed very differently, as was evident in 1994, when the only real hope was that a democratic revolution in the U.S. would make it possible to shift policy in a more civilized direction.
What is happening now is awful, maybe beyond repair, and there is plenty of short-term responsibility on all sides.
...
 Commentary on Haiti, Iraq, and other "failed societies" is quite right in stressing the importance of overcoming the "democratic deficit" that substantially reduces the significance of elections. It does not, however, draw the obvious corollary: the lesson applies in spades to a country where "politics is the shadow cast on society by big business," in the words of America's leading social philosopher, John Dewey, describing his own country in days when the blight had spread nowhere near as far as it has today.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Haiti/US_Haiti_Chomsky.html



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't like his analysis in this particular case for reasons that require a more measured response than I am capable of at the moment (I have deadlines to meet).  Haiti's problems date back to the revolution and combine outside colonial reactions as well as internal shortsighted and opportunistic policies of the post-revolutionary leadership.  As for Chomsky, I don't like this pre-emptive statement:

Those who are intent on diverting attention from the U.S. role will object that the situation is more complex-as is always true-and that Aristide too was guilty of many crimes. Correct, but if he had been a saint the situation would hardly have developed very differently.

No we aren't diverting attention from the US role.  The US acted opportunistically as has always done in the past (see the Grenada Revolution, for one example).  However, things didn't turn out to its (the US's) liking in the end, now did it?  Rene Preval, far from being a US puppet, is actually a protege of Aristide.  

Wish I could go on, but I must get back to work...

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 02:02:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Haiti's problems date back to the revolution and combine outside colonial reactions as well as internal shortsighted and opportunistic policies of the post-revolutionary leadership."

Chomsky refers to the earlier history:


As New York Times correspondent R.W. Apple recounted two centuries of history in 1994, reflecting on the prospects for Clinton's endeavor to "restore democracy" then underway, "Like the French in the l9th century, like the Marines who occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934, the American forces who are trying to impose a new order will confront a complex and violent society with no history of democracy. "

Apple does appear to go a bit beyond the norm in his reference to Napoleon's savage assault on Haiti, leaving it in ruins, in order to prevent the crime of liberation in the world's richest colony, the source of much of France's wealth. But perhaps that undertaking too satisfies the fundamental criterion of benevolence: it was supported by the United States, which was naturally outraged and frightened by "the first nation in the world to argue the case of universal freedom for all humankind, revealing the limited definition of freedom adopted by the French and American revolutions." So Haitian historian Patrick Bellegarde-Smith writes, accurately describing the terror in the slave state next door, which was not relieved even when Haiti's successful liberation struggle, at enormous cost, opened the way to the expansion to the West by compelling Napoleon to accept the Louisiana Purchase. The U.S. continued to do what it could to strangle Haiti, even supporting France's insistence that Haiti pay a huge indemnity for the crime of liberating itself, a burden it has never escaped -and France, of course, dismissed with elegant disdain Haiti's request, recently under Aristide, that it at least repay the indemnity, forgetting the responsibilities that a civilized society would accept.

ibid

"No we aren't diverting attention from the US role. "

I'm not sure who the "we" is here - I think recent discussions in the US media have NOT gone into the US role.

"However, things didn't turn out to its (the US's) liking in the end, now did it?  Rene Preval, far from being a US puppet, is actually a protege of Aristide."

If the US created more of a mess than they intended, I'm not surprised. Things haven't turned out well in Iraq either, but that doesn't absolve the US of blame does it?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 02:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of Caribbean Studies, where we promote comprehensive research.  In the special case of Haiti, comprehensive research means including the devastating policies of Alexander Petion in addition to the undeniably heurtful policies of former colonial powers.  Petion's land reform contributed just as much to the dire situation today as did the colonial policies you cite.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:14:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chomsky is referring to the US media in general, not to an institute like yours. Also he notes that the US media are not "monolithic" and occasionally good reporting takes place.


Petion's land reform contributed just as much to the dire situation today as did the colonial policies you cite.

 Chomsky clearly thinks the recent US role is far more important in understanding the situation - today - in Haiti than what happened in the 19th century. I find his account persuasive and entirely in keeping with US policy in the region generally:


The Bush I administration reacted to the disaster of democracy by shifting aid from the democratically elected government to what are called "democratic forces": the wealthy elites and the business sectors, who, along with the murderers and torturers of the military and paramilitaries, had been lauded by the current incumbents in Washington, in their Reaganite phase, for their progress in "democratic development," justifying lavish new aid. The praise came in response to ratification by the Haitian parliament of a law granting Washington's client killer and torturer Baby Doc Duvalier the authority to suspend the rights of any political party without reasons. The law passed by a majority of 99.98 percent. It therefore marked a positive step towards democracy as compared with the 99 percent approval of a 1918 law granting U.S. corporations the right to turn the country into a U.S. plantation, passed by 5 percent of the population after the Haitian Parliament was disbanded at gunpoint by Wilson's Marines when it refused to accept this "progressive measure," essential for "economic development." Their reaction to Baby Doc's encouraging progress towards democracy was characteristic-worldwide-on the part of the visionaries who are now entrancing educated opinion with their dedication to bringing democracy to a suffering world-although, to be sure, their actual exploits are being tastefully rewritten to satisfy current needs.

Refugees fleeing to the U. S. from the terror of the U.S.-backed dictatorships were forcefully returned, in gross violation of international humanitarian law. The policy was reversed when a democratically elected government took office. Though the flow of refugees reduced to a trickle, they were mostly granted political asylum. Policy returned to normal when a military junta overthrew the Aristide government after seven months and state terrorist atrocities rose to new heights. The perpetrators were the army-the inheritors of the National Guard left by Wilson's invaders to control the population-and its paramilitary forces. The most important of these, FRAPH, was founded by CIA asset Emmanuel Constant, who now lives happily in Queens, Clinton and Bush II having dismissed extradition requests-because he would reveal U.S. ties to the murderous junta, it is widely assumed. Constant's contributions to state terror were, after all, meager; merely prime responsibility for the murder of 4,000 to 5,000 poor blacks.

ibid.

Not a pretty story and it's not surprising the US media in general tend to avoid it.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:51:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
like those Chomsky criticises.  

The politics is one thing.  You've focused on that.  However, there is another complementary aspect to Haitian poverty.  The Haitian landscape today doesn't sustain prosperous agriculture because the topsoil was  devastated, due in no small measure to the post revolutionary land reform that favored small, no, micro scale agriculture over large scale agriculture.  The large estates were subdivided by Petion and others into small plots and parceled out to the peasants.  That was a populist measure that was expedient at the time but it also represented economic suicide.  Ask any knowledgable Haitian (ask even Aristide!!).  They will tell you exactly that.  I take it you were unable to access the jstor link I provided.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 05:13:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I begin to see why you would speak of "we" :-)  

So it's really the Haitians own fault huh - ruined their own agriculture long ago - I don't think so:

Before 1950, Haiti produced more than 80 percent of its own food and exported coffee, cocoa, meat and sugar. Since then, political instability [cf Chomsky on the main causes], among other factors, has made the development of Haitian agriculture a low priority.

Dictatorships supported by Haiti's small elite have been preoccupied with plunder and repression, while popular governments have often been preoccupied with survival, and fending off coups d'etat.

By the 1980s and 1990s, a huge amount of international pressure had been placed on Haiti to reduce its tariffs and open most of its markets to the world. This process has strengthened a demographic shift in which poor rural populations, out of work, have moved to urban slums, often working as street vendors. To reenergise Haiti's rural economy, many analysts believe the government itself must intervene in order to create the space for jobs.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41454



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 05:40:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If now you're going to proceed to represent what I wrote, we might as well consider this conversation finished.  I will give it one last try:  If you carefully read what I wrote, you will realize that I am not countering your or Chomsky's arguments.  I am just saying that the situation is a lot more complex than is portrayed.  I am not saying that this exonerates US imperialism.  We work with Haitians all the time and they tell us these things.  They are in scholarly books, historical and sociological.  Things that happened a century ago DO have a bearing on the current situation.  Take for example the Dominican Republic.  It has been subject to enormous repression from US imperialism throughout it's history just like Haiti.  Trujillo was just as brutal a dictator as Papa Doc.  However, compare their landscapes (this can be done through the internet by locating satellite photos of the island of Hispaniola - I know they exist but I do not have time to search and link them for you here).  The stark contrast of the Haitian side to the Dominican side is evident.  While there is unquestionably poverty in the Dominican Republic, it is not nearly as dire as on the Haitian side and this is due to the condition of the land.  You don't have to take my word for it, just ask any Haitian.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 07:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That should have been MIS-represent in my first sentence.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 07:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
maracatu: ... might as well consider this conversation finished.

i was going to ask you to write a diary on this subject based on your comment above.  but this discussion was very informative in and of itself, so thank you for that.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 01:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"If now you're going to proceed to represent what I wrote, we might as well consider this conversation finished."

It's called satire, OK, sarcasm, something I also share with Chomsky, cf.:

The praise came in response to ratification by the Haitian parliament of a law granting Washington's client killer and torturer Baby Doc Duvalier the authority to suspend the rights of any political party without reasons. The law passed by a majority of 99.98 percent. It therefore marked a positive step towards democracy as compared with the 99 percent approval of a 1918 law granting U.S. corporations the right to turn the country into a U.S. plantation, passed by 5 percent of the population after the Haitian Parliament was disbanded at gunpoint by Wilson's Marines when it refused to accept this "progressive measure," essential for "economic development."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Haiti/US_Haiti_Chomsky.html

You haven't explained how it was possible that:

Before 1950, Haiti produced more than 80 percent of its own food and exported coffee, cocoa, meat and sugar.

if the productive capacity of the land was supposedly ruined 200 (not 100 as you now say) years ago. The kinds of intervention by the US cited by Chomsky do explain why agriculture has declined in Haiti so disastrously - here's yet more explaining why this happened (excuse his sarcasm - entirely justified in my view):


Also efficiently suppressed were the crucial conditions that Clinton imposed for Aristide's return: that he adopt the program of the defeated U.S. candidate in the 1990 elections, a former World Bank official who had received 14 percent of the vote. We call this "restoring democracy," a prime illustration of how U.S. foreign policy has entered a "noble phase" with a "saintly glow," the national press explained. The harsh neoliberal program that Aristide was compelled to adopt was virtually guaranteed to demolish the remaining shreds of economic sovereignty, extending Wilson's progressive legislation and similar U.S.-imposed measures since

...
Matters then proceeded in their predictable course. A 1995 USAID report explained that the "export-driven trade and investment policy" that Washington imposed will "relentlessly squeeze the domestic rice farmer," who will be forced to turn to agroexport, with incidental benefits to U.S. agribusiness and investors. Despite their extreme poverty, Haitian rice farmers are quite efficient, but cannot possibly compete with U. S. agribusiness, even if it did not receive 40 percent of its profits from government subsidies, sharply increased under the Reaganites who are again in power, still producing enlightened rhetoric about the miracles of the market. We now read that Haiti cannot feed itself, another sign of a "failed state. "

A few small industries were still able to function, for example, making chicken parts. But U.S. conglomerates have a large surplus of dark meat, and therefore demanded the right to dump their excess products in Haiti. They tried to do the same in Canada and Mexico too, but there illegal dumping could be barred. Not in Haiti, compelled to submit to efficient market principles by the U.S. government and the corporations it serves.

ibid.

This isn't to deny "agency" to the Haitians, of course, nor to deny that they have caused environmental problems in more recent years - but, as I started by saying, that has to be seen in context - one Chomsky, unlike most US media, provides. Regarding the environment in recent years, from another source:

Each year, the country's 7 million inhabitants burn the equivalent of 30 million trees--20 million more than the country grows annually. Forests have shrunk from covering 80 percent of Haiti's lands several hundred years ago, to only 3 percent today.

Deforestation stepped up during the international trade embargo, between 1991-1994, as people burned trees for the fuel they could no longer import. Haiti's exploding population growth hasn't helped either. Strapped for cash and burdened by innumerable needs, the government has not placed a major emphasis on conservation. Only $300,000 has been earmarked for the environment in Haiti's 1995-1996 budget--only about .17 percent of the government's overall budget.

 "The government has a lot of priorities and the environment isn't one of them," Eyma said.

For their part, large-scale international efforts have ebbed and flowed with the tides of Haitian politics. During the trade embargo, many environmental programs ground to a halt.
...
Solidarity Forest is not the only project up and running in Buteau. The village has also set up a revolving loan fund for women's businesses, again fueled by church dollars.

The mix of income-generation and environmental conservation is critical, many experts say. It is a link, they say, that many development workers fail to make.

"Many organizations just haven't addressed poverty concerns," said Lydia Williams of Oxfam America. "Peasants know they shouldn't cut down a tree, but if they need to cook food they'll do it. They know they shouldn't farm on mountains, but if they need to eat they'll do it."

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/257.html

The Bush government has made things worse for such desperate peasants:

The punishment of Haiti became much more severe under Bush II - there are differences within the narrow spectrum of cruelty and greed. Aid was cut and international institutions were pressured to do likewise, under pretexts too outlandish to merit discussion. They are extensively reviewed in Paul Farmer's The Uses of Haiti, and in some current press commentary, notably by Jeffrey Sachs (Financial Times) and Tracy Kidder (New York Times).

Chomsky, ibid.

Re Farmer's book - it seems it has suffered from a  smear campaign, something that Chomsky has to put up with too:

EDIT - There seems to be something of a smear campaign going on against this book. The book was originaly published in 1994, and this edition came out in 2003. Therefore, the current happenings in Haiti are not mentioned in the book. One reviewer mentioned that Farmer is so rich because Aristide is lining his pockets. This reviewer is overlooking the fact that Farmer is one of the head doctors at one of the largest hospitals in the US (a post that pays a pretty penny), and teaches at Harvard (ditto), and does frequent speaking tours, is a published author, and much more. Farmer is also quite open about the fact that he lives in a tiny appartment in a very bleak area of Boston, and puts his tremendous earnings right back into Partners in Health.

http://www.amazon.com/Uses-Haiti-Updated-Paul-Farmer/dp/1567512429

 

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I have much too much work at the moment (classes to prepare, university bureaucracy to comply with, etc. etc. etc. - please notice there aren't many posts of mine in this blog, although I have given you an inordinate amount of my time), plus I usually get paid for stuff like this and I don't see any money forthcoming from you.

However, I will do what every academic does in such a case:  provide you with a few scholarly sources.  For Haitian scholarship, you can't go wrong with Jean Price-Mars.  However, for matters pertaining to economic development (and the questions you have fielded) consult works of the trusted scholar Mats Lundahl.  Although he is not Haitian, he is a scholar of Haiti (his publications contain bibliographic gold mines).  Further up the thread, I posted a link to a JSTOR with some reviews of his.  I will do you the favor of reproducing them here.  You will find your answers in those books (I hope you can read french):

Review: Haitian Underdevelopment in a Historical Perspective
Author(s): Mats Lundahl
Reviewed work(s):
Haiti. Wirtschaftliche Entwicklung und Periphere Gesellschaftsformation by Giovanni Caprio
Haiti. Naturraumpotential und Entwicklung by Wolf Donner
Ayiti-Potansyel Natirel e developman by Jeannot Hilaire
Le Manifeste du Dernier Monde by Jean Jacques Honorat
...
Source: Journal of Latin American Studies, Vol. 14, No. 2 (Nov., 1982), pp. 465-475
Published by: Cambridge University Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/156466

So long.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 07:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cambridge University Press: Haitian Underdevelopment in a Historical Perspective

When Columbus discovered Hispaniola in I492, he wrote a highly enthusiastic account of the island's lush vegetation. Today, as a result of human action, the country is virtually denuded. The small forest-clad areas that still remain display severe signs of degeneration and shrink rapidly. Most of the cultivated land is in mountainous terrain which per se is not suited for agriculture. With the farming techniques employed in Haiti, erosion has taken a heavy toll during more than two centuries.


"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 09:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two points.

One, are you implying that the Haitians can have no agency, positive or negative?  Your focus on US and World influences, via Chomsky, seems to exclude the ability of Haitians to do anything, positive or negative.  It would seem quite obvious that they would be just as capable of digging their hole even deeper.  Not all autonomous acts or tactics of resistance are productive, and to deny that is to buy into a binary fallacy of "bad imperialist/good natives" which distorts the situation almost as much as a triumphalist narrative.

Two, the paragraph you cited fits entirely with what Marcatau is arguing.  Before 1950, they were agriculturally prosperous.  Now they aren't.  Topsoil destruction is not hard to accomplish on a small island with rainfall like that of Haiti's, and I've seen some of the pictures Marcatau is citing.  Further, the quote you cited doesn't actually make any causative links between anything - they are at best things happen at the same time.

by Zwackus on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 09:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I'm not saying that the Haitians "have no agency", just clearly not much chance of exercising it given the massive interference of a superpower like the US.

You haven't understood the chronology, Marcatu was talking about the supposed effects of what happened about 200 years ago (as I made clear), not what has happened since 1950. As I pointed out it doesn't work as an explanation when, despite what happened about 200 years ago, the agriculture was relatively healthy in 1950. The destruction of it since then is clearly caused by US intervention and yes, in a desperate sitaution the Haitians themselves may have done some things which made the situation worse - the key question is why is it so bad generally - clearly explained by Chomsky.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 04:49:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
200 years ago?  Papa Doc was a mid-century dictator, 1957-1971, not the revolutionary of yore.
by Zwackus on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 04:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Maracuta said:


Petion's land reform contributed just as much to the dire situation today as did the colonial policies you cite.

"Alexandre Pétion , 1770-1818, Haitian revolutionist."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Petion-A.html

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Would anyone know what happened to Lasthorseman's last diary?

I hope it didn't get erased.

by Nomad on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:09:51 PM EST
It was a sad diary, slightly desperate and a tragic story of family misery. I cannot blame him if he feels he needs to hide it away. I didn't read the comments thread, but I hope people were kind to him.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:16:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can only assume he deleted it himself. A problem with Scoop is that a deleted diary disappears with its comments into a black hole. Not only it can't be got back, there is no log of when and how it was deleted, or who did it.

In this case, it was a diary - and further comments - that exposed with brutal frankness a raw and painful aspect of the diarist's life and family relationships. There were no comments I saw (up to Thursday, I think) that trashed him or his feelings. Certainly not mine, he tore my heart out.

So the whys and wherefores, I don't know.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 02:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It left me literally reeling - several times.

I was side-tracked by the discussion that developed on tangent, as is wont, but went looking for it this evening to read it again.

So in that case:

Lasthorseman, if you're reading, you moved me deeply. The image you painted with you carrying your bee-stung daughter on your back and rushing through the wilderness will probably stay with me forever. As someone working frequently outdoors, away from civilisation I know what this means.

However it is difficult for me relate to the extra emotional depths you displayed - because I've not been in those situations. Just to say: wishing you strength.

by Nomad on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 02:23:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The comments about him and his feelings up to Sat. were all sympathetic.

In a series of exchanges between Gianne and myself about the nature of science and evidence, Gianne suggested that I had failed to accept evidence offered to me and also referred to LH's description of the "eight veils". I agreed that this was a description, and not evidence, and admitted that I could not accept this (taken from another source, but as I recall it the same as in LH's diary):


"The fifth veil: Ten percent of us will pierce the fifth veil to learn that the secret societies are so far advanced technologically that time travel and interstellar communications have no boundaries and controlling the actions of people is what their members do as offhandedly as we tell our children when they must go to bed. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the sixth veil.

The sixth veil: Ten percent of us will pierce the sixth veil where the dragons and lizards and aliens we thought were fictional monsters of childhood literature are real and are the controlling forces behind the secret societies. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without piercing the seventh veil.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=54000



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 02:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, he quoted the entire piece you reference there.

Though what he had to say about himself, his life, and his family was the real subject matter. (imo).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 02:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 It was for that reason that I didn't comment on the veils stuff until Gianne referred back to it. Even then I was more polite than I usually would be about such claims.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:12:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is GAianne.  And above is maracAtU.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 08:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When was this diary?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was posted Wednesday, maybe (I'm not sure).

He posted a different diary on Bootrib Monday.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 03:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aï, unfortunately, it looks like he took that one down as well.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 01:17:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Autumn struck with a vengeance in the last couple of days and (leaf)Fall came into play. So have been out with my parents sweeping leaves and burning them.

Fortunately my parents have finally bowed to age and bought a machine that picks up leaves, so all I've had to do is sweep them off paths and flower beds onto the lawn where my Dad picks them up and can deliver them to my mother whose name might as well be "she who sets fire to things".

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:21:52 PM EST
It was a crisp -5 C here this morning, but sunny and now it's getting warmer. High predicted to be around 15 C...
by asdf on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why people don't pay you to write a column, I don't know.

That got a big laugh from me.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 11:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Laying low for a day in Franz Josef "city" before hiking the glacier of the same name tomorrow. In the meantime I'm reading up on photoshop and photography.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 05:00:00 PM EST
It is sad that the whole fun of photography--the chemicals, the many and wierd films and papers, the filters--have been replaced by even more time spent in front of a computer...
by asdf on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 06:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't spend THAT much time with it. And photoshop camera raw is really powerful.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 07:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just don't know. I'm stuck in 1985 film technology, but when I think about changing to digital it's just too depressing...

  • Lifetime of digital images. CD-R aging estimates range from 5 to 200 years. I have 60 year old slides from my grandfather that are just fine. Will my grandkids be able to look at my digital images 60 years from now?

  • What computer will they use to read those 60 year old CDs on? I can't even read 15 year old floppy disks.

  • Gigantic size of RAW files. 10 MB or more per picture, and due to get bigger as the pixel count increases.

  • Batteries. Ugh.

  • Memory cards. Ugh.

  • Photoshop. Ugh.

  • RAW file plug-ins. Ugh.

  • HDR. Ugh.

  • Disposable technology. Ugh.

I guess I'm just going to be left behind, as usual...
by asdf on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 11:03:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You would be saving quite a lot of silver nitrate though ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 11:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's the actual physical size of a RAW file on HD compared to that of a film negative ?

I think the (future) trick of digital photography will be upload on some servers, somewhere. Too many servers for them to be actually destroyed...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 03:46:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Raw files vary depending on resolution - 50MB/20MP is a professional (minimum) standard and is equivalent to a top of the range scan of a 35mm slide. But if you're shooting 12MP or 6MP, file sizes are much lower.

Considering how cheap hard drives are now - I've just bought 1TB for £85 - storage really isn't an issue. Even at 50MB, a single £50 500GB drive will hold 10,000 images.

It's usual for the more organised professionals to keep archive copies offsite already.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the real problem is that your average amateur will have trouble with that kind of conservancy of data - a box of old photographs will remain around the house, whereas a password to some remote service is much more likely to be lost.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 05:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't need an off-site server. You just need to copy the photos to a spare hard drive and park it at a friend's house.

Also, these days most people seem to use Photobucket etc for sharing.

Either way you'll still have your photos if your house burns down.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 06:21:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]