Obama in the UK ?

by Helen
Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 10:10:10 AM EST

One of the more obvious responses to the election of President Obama has been a questioning as to whether a person from a racial minority can ever hope to climb the greasy pole to political power anywhere in Europe. The framing for this question only allows the answer "No we can't - cos we're too racist". We might think that unfair; we have female leaders instead, something I think the US would find much harder because of the militaristic nature of the American culture. We might also point to fair election systems that at least allow all black people to vote if they want to, something that America also seems to find hard.

But I think it's all missing the point, as I think there is a difference between the self perception of minorities in Europe and America. Everybody in america is first and foremost an american, they are sold the idea of being an American, a citizen. It may be difficult to get those rights and citizenship respected at times, but you yourself are never given cause to doubt because, whatever the feelings of the GOP, the US is a nation at ease with immigrants, their nationhood was built on immigration. This is not true of the UK and acceptance of "out" groups seems more conditional.


I used to think that we'd got over our problems in the UK, indeed although I admit we'd made every mistake under the sun in trying to come to terms with our fears of immigration, I naively thought we'd put them behind us. Even, arrogantly perhaps, suggesting that we had lessons to teach Europe. Now I'm not so sure. It hasn't been the earnest discussions I've seen on TV, some reassuring, some realistic, few optimistic about whether minority groups can progress here that upset me. Instead what made me despair was this;-

Independent - Philip Hensher - Was Mason a racist, or just an imbecile?

Wittgenstein would have been greatly interested by the case of the BBC Bristol presenter and the taxi cab. Anyone looking at it will find it difficult to classify some of the statements made in the course of the events as meaningful in any sense.

It began when a BBC radio presenter in Bristol, Sam Mason, called a local taxi firm to book a cab for her 14-year-old daughter. Off the air, but from the BBC Bristol offices, she requested that the driver not be Asian because "it would freak her out". "I don't want her to turn up with a guy with a turban on," Ms Mason went on airily, "she's not used to Asians." The taxi firm operator told her firmly that in their view, the request was racist. Ms Mason was flabbergasted, and promised that if it were her, she "wouldn't care if it had two heads, but it's my little girl we're talking about".

At this point, perhaps startled by the comparison of an Asian taxi driver to a freak with two heads, or perhaps not caring for the word "it" in this comment, the operator passed her on to a supervisor who refused to take her request. Ms Mason seemed very surprised by this refusal, saying "I work at the BBC - I'm far from racist." And, after all, she had started the conversation with the words: "I know this is going to sound racist, but I'm not being."

Anyway, the BBC have sacked her, to the noisily expressed outrage of a lot of contributors to various Bristolian outlets. In a poll conducted by the Bristol Evening Post, up to 82 per cent of those asked considered that it wasn't racist to specify, er, the race of the person you wanted to drive you. Or possibly something which no one should be allowed to object to. Of course, they venture, Ms Mason wasn't being racist, and if she was, she jolly well ought to be allowed to be. This was just a case of Political Correctness Gone Mad.

The West Country is not widely known for being welcoming towards people of different cultures. Frankly, I doubt many black or Asian people choose to spend their holidays there. The largest minority ethnic community in Exeter, a city of 111,000 people at the last census, numbers 378 people of Chinese origin. Padstow was still mounting something delightfully called "Darkie Day" in the 21st century.

Bristol does much better than many places, with a recorded total of 28,936 people of non-white ethnic origins - still well below the national average - of which 10,859 are from the Indian sub-continent. Ms Mason's daughter, who is 14, lives in a city where about 6 per cent of the population is non-white. Why, I wonder, did her mother firmly believe that the sight of an Asian would "freak her out"? Why, more to the point, does she feel that her extraordinary and, I must say, incredible belief about a daughter's racism is in some way "not racist" because she says so?

If ever this column set eyes on the epitome and pinnacle of what Doctor Johnson called "unresisting imbecility", Ms Sam Mason is that unresisting imbecile. If she were merely a freak on display in the great circus of human stupidity, one might leave it there with a merry chuckle. But it is that up to 82 per cent that terrifies; the people who believed and voted to the effect that the sentence "I know this sounds really racist, but I'm not being ... please, don't send anyone like, you know what I mean. An English person would be great," could not reasonably be classified as racist. The philosophical semantics of this one are quite beyond me.

And it's beyond me too and I just feel a weariness descend. A weariness that makes me ask, not just "Do we have to do all of this again ?", but "what is it in society that keeps allowing this to happen ?" Why is it that simple acceptance and tolerance seem impossible, even for somebody supposedly educated like a BBC presenter ?

I used to just accept the casual racism of people in Essex (nowhere near the West Country, this is the "metropolitan South East") as just being some cultural stupidity. My mother's hairdresser bleating about all the black people presenting the news. But I now fear it is a deeper maliase of not accepting difference, the result of 7 years of being told to be afraid of the the "other" has made people xeonphobic in a way that stunned me when it smacked me in the head. If we can't do it in our personal space, then how the heck could you get people to vote for them ?

Obama in UK ? No hope, no chance. Sadly this is not change I can believe in.

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I was at an academic conference on cross-cultural communication in Bristol this year. It is a city with a lot of issues.

However I would suggest that the poll isn't quite what it seems:

Sam Mason BBC Bristol sacked presenter over racism row | Bristol News | This is Bristol

More than 2,000 people have taken part in a Bristol Evening Post online poll and text message vote on the Sam Mason racism row.

We asked: Was BBC Radio Bristol presenter Sam Mason racist in the comments she made to a local taxi firm?

Almost 1,500 people voted online on this website, and a further 800 people voted using text messages.

Overall, nearly three quarters of readers who voted on This is Bristol said Sam Mason's comments were not racist - with 73 per cent voting no, and 27 per cent yes.

And of those who voted by text, 82 per cent said the comments were not racist, with 18 per cent claiming they were.

This kind of "response poll" is notorious for generating skewed results.

I have some more thoughts, but I'll put them up in other comments as I sort them out in my mind.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 10:50:08 AM EST
Is it a real poll or a straw poll?  The "scientific" Internet polls here are notoriously bad, but the firms in Britain, like YouGov/Polimetrix, have done some respectable work.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what the terminology is, it's definitely not a real poll, but I'm not sure it qualifies as a straw poll.

Issues:

  1. It's easy for people to vote more than once.

  2. Only readers of the newspaper will know to vote, so it's not a poll of Bristol people, but a poll of Bristol people who read the Bristol Evening News that day.

  3. The big issue with polls like this is that only certain personality types vote in them generally and following on from that, only people who feel very strongly about the question will vote.

Following on from (3) but not a technical issue with the polling method is that the woman in question was removed from her job. That seems likely to have created a groundswell of support for her - people likely to have voted in this poll in support of her, irrespective of the actual question asked.

Thus, I'm inclined not to get too invested in the poll outcome.

I'll even note that on a personal level I'm not sure this was a sacking offence. I'm half-Indian, so I abhor her attitude, but it seems to have been a single incident. Surely there has to be room for people to learn from their mistakes?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:32:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right.  It's a non-scientific poll at a news source's website.  Meaning that you're clearly looking at results skewed based upon the politics of the paper's readers, as well as the freeping/smurfing problem (and freeping tends to skew pretty dramatically to the BNP Right on British news sites from what I've seen).

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll even note that on a personal level I'm not sure this was a sacking offence.

It is because she used a BBC phone, thus making the Corporation liable for the conversation. They wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if she'd used her mobile.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 01:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant more in "justice" sense, than the "legal" sense.

I'm conflicted... on the one hand, if racism is to wither then it has to become truly unacceptable behaviour.

On the other... (granting that I know nothing of her previous work history) being sacked for a single instance, doesn't seem inherently enlightened.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 01:58:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, everybody at the BBC knows you don't embarrass the organisation.

I once lazily registered at a political website with my BBC email address and made a comment.  Even tho' it wasn't directly visible, my email address came to the attention of some of the BBC's enemies (right wing blowhards) and they debated getting me sacked. They knew they could and I knew it too. I'd made one mistake and yet, if they'd felt like it, they could have destroyed my employment. Not because I was prominent, but because they wanted to instill fear among the general workforce to remind them they were being monitored. (they actually let me off cos they googled me and found out I was transgendered, they felt sorry for me !!)

And that's the way it works. The BBC couldn't keep her on cos it has to be seen to do the right thing at all times. She used a BBC phone, she made the BBC complicit in her act as that made it an official BBC call. So to absolve their blame, she had to go.

Is it just ? I doubt there's many large companies that could afford the bad publicity of having someone do that. Litigation is expensive and failure to act makes them liable. by using company resources to commit even a low level "crime", she gave them nowhere to go.

As I said, if she'd used her own mobile, she'd still be there.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... and at the same time, unfair. Its not even cricket ... it may only take one slip to be out, but you normally get another bat in the second innings.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 09:20:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even know what that means, but it sounded good.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 09:56:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know how in cricket the bowler, who when his team came in went out in the field, going all out trying to get the team that went in to bat to go all out, throws the ball at the wooden stakes? And if the batsmen lets one through and it hits the wooden stakes, he's out?

But, of course, there's two innings ... so even in a game where it can be one strike, you're out, you get a second chance.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:18:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hard-right stances on immigration are losers in America, because the Nation of Immigrants thing is jammed into our brains almost from birth here.  I've said this probably a hundred times.  For every American who demands undocumented workers be deported, there are three who'll respond, "We're all immigrants, asshat."  Many people talk about immigration and the problems of illegal immigration, but nobody other than Lou Dobbs actually votes on it.

Except, of course, Latinos.  And, as we discovered November 4th, as well as back in 2006, Latinos haven't taken too kindly to the way Republicans have talked about them (shocking, I know).  I'm not sure what it's going to take for the GOP to get the message, since they've just been slaughtered in all but one of the competitive states in the Southwest (Arizona being the one, and they probably only won it because McCain was the nominee).  Still, they'll keep going.  Maybe they can really go all-out and give us Texas next time.

It helps that Latino immigrants have a reputation for being extremely hard-working people who, by the time their kids come into young adulthood, have fully integrated into American society.  It's impossible to successfully hate on a group of people about whom the rest of us have such favorable opinions.

Now on to Europe: I appreciate that Obama's victory has sparked this huge discussion in the European press, but I think the press is being much too harsh to the point that it has reached silly-season levels of teh stoopit.  If Obama and McCain had been running for Preznit of Yurp, Obama would've carried 65-70% instead of 53%.  (He probably would've hit 75% in France, which ironically seems to be getting the worst of the beating.)  The fact that an American politician was able to strike up such excitement there -- the huge crowd in Berlin, the many (and very large) parties across Europe on Election Night, etc -- says a lot more than some prick columnist in a Murdoch paper.

There's racism everywhere, and huge portions of the population will inevitably maintain some racist assumptions.  What that bit from the Independent describes is really just a British version of the White-Flight mentality found in American suburbs.  Replace the South-Asian cab-driver with a black guy, and Mason is every middle-aged dumb white woman in Gwinnett County, Georgia, or Martin County, Florida.

And it's not as though electing Obama has somehow magically cured us of racism.  We're being given too much credit on that.  Not to say it isn't a big deal.  I think Americans deserve a rare pat on the head for it.  But it just means the sane side can win when they show up.  But you need only look at the numerous stories of people hanging Obama in effigy in small-town ("Real") Ohio, or the disgusting things shouted at the McCain-Palin rallies, or the however-many plots uncovered by the spooks -- and those are only the ones we know of -- to assassinate him to know that racism is still plenty real here, even if the majority can get beyond it in the voting booth.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 11:04:41 AM EST
If Obama and McCain had been running for Preznit of Yurp, Obama would've carried 65-70% instead of 53%.  (He probably would've hit 75% in France, which ironically seems to be getting the worst of the beating.)

You might very well be right, but Obama would never have made his way to the top of a major political party in the first place...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 11:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Royal did...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 11:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But women are not a minority...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 11:54:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps, but that points to flaws in the structure of political parties more than a racial/cultural problem.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was my point. Above all, it points to the flawed representation the leaders of political parties have of the French citizens' opinions and prejudices. You can see it in the fact that the Socialist Party is not able to take a clear progressive position on immigration.

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How long did it take for the socialist party to undertake progressive reforms when it comes to feminism ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 12:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... a culture, in societies where political control is determined by party-political elections.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:20:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He could have have picked any political party in Ireland and would have had no problem getting the leadership when it became vacant - his intellect and eloquence  stands head and shoulders above our local leaders - none of whom would have huge standing in intellectual or international terms at the moment.

We do value experience and time served, so he'd have to have been around a few years.  Race hasn't been a factor here so far in elections - and might have been helpful in some instances for novelty factor alone.  This may change if/when racial minorities become big enough to threaten the dominant "indigenous" culture.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 04:51:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... head and shoulders above the rest prized or penalized in Irish political culture?


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:21:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course he wouldn't have. Or rather it would be much, much more difficult. Minority political power in the US has been achieved through tools that are rejected in France as 'communitarian' and thus anti-Republican. Even Obama, someone about as integrated into the dominant white majority elite culture as one can possibly be, got his start in this manner. He first romanced the black Chicago power establishment, then ran for office in a predominantly black district, and got help from the top black elected official (state senate president Emil Jones) to build himself up for the senate race.

The French approach forces minorities to act as if the playing field were equal and delegitimizes attempts at political activism that is based on the reality of an unequal society, rather than the ideal of a colour blind one. It is sort of similar in mindset to the nineteenth century classical liberal rejection of [working] class based activism, and at any state or social attempt to counteract class inequality. The obstacles in the way of racial/ethnic minorities aren't as high as the class ones in the nineteenth century, but they certainly do exist. And the most insiduous and powerful ones are not deliberate racism, but the unconscious networking of people with others like themselves, a sort of naive and unacknowledged form of white (and predominantly male) self promotion system that is denied to others in the name of a non-existent equality.

by MarekNYC on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 09:36:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tell me what class Juppé came from. And Bérégovoy. And Lauvergeon. And Ghosn. And Royal. And Lagarde. And Seguin. And Kron. And Gallois.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Bérégovoy. And Lauvergeon. And Ghosn. And Royal. And Lagarde. And Seguin. And Kron. And Gallois.

Are those names or something?

(I kid, I kid.)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll play contrarian and note that from a cursory glance at wikipedia, at least half of them come from what Bourdieu called "Partie dominée de la class dominante", people with high cultural capital, like secondary school teachers or officers.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bourieu's point is partly that cultural capital is a consolation prize second class substitute for political and financial capital.

In the UK we'd say they're mostly middle class.

Then again, political leadership doesn't necessarily translate into policy leadership - only policy implementation.

Pols are front people for various interests, and the real battle is between these interests.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It may not be obvious for the last layer of immigrants, but it is rather so for the layers before that one.

Why does everybody like to think that it won't also work for this generation? Like nicta noted in the OT, the kids of the most recent immigration are largely entering the mainstream, almost unnoticed.

We only talk about the minority left behind and in trouble, but the thing is - it's a minority and it's main problems are the same as that of the other, non-immigrant population in the same neighborhoods, and it's largely economic. The racial capegoating is largely a consequence of the vicious politics of hate of the hardright (Sarkozy included in that repect) to scapegoat them as a distraction for other antisocial economic policies.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:05:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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