European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 23. November

by Fran
Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:20:58 PM EST

On this date in history:

1876 - Manuel de Falla, a Spanish composer of classical music, was born. (d. 1946)

More here and video


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EUROPE
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:21:39 PM EST
EUROPE: Criticising Bush, And Copying Him
BERLIN, Nov 21 (IPS) - Outgoing U.S. President George W. Bush has been unpopular in Europe, but his policies in fighting the 'war on terror' have found many takers.

Daniel Finke and Thomas Koenig, professors of politics at the University of Mannheim, 500 km south of Berlin, have found numerous similarities between U.S. "homeland security" and European laws since 2001.

"We do not want to attack all EU homeland security policies, but we have found there is a law-making trend across Europe that reduces civil liberties in exchange for more collective security," Koenig told IPS.

Finke and Koenig studied Austria, Britain, Denmark, Germany and Sweden.

The new European laws reducing civil rights range from introducing biometric control devices such as computerised passports and the digital registration of fingerprints to surveillance and storage of all telephone and Internet traffic and transaction data, including bank operations.

Finke and Koenig say the European trend of trading off civil freedoms against homeland security goes against the rights of democratic institutions such as parliaments. "Parliaments are forced to ratify all government decisions in this matter without questioning, and without the right to discuss and eventually reject elements of the laws," Koenig said.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aubry wins French Socialist battle by tiny margin - Europe, World - The Independent

Martine Aubry, the architect of France's 35-hour work week, has won a ballot for the leadership of the opposition Socialists by the tiny margin of 42 votes, the party said in a statement early this morning.

Supporters of her arch rival Segolene Royal immediately contested the result and demanded a re-run, raising the prospect of prolonged feuding within France's main opposition party.

The Socialists said Aubry won 50.02 percent support in Friday's ballot against 49.98 percent for Royal. Valid votes were cast by only 134,784 of the party's 233,000 members.

Royal's lawyer Jean Pierre Mignard said they result was "contested and questionable", while another senior supporter, Manuel Valls, said the vote should be held again next Thursday.

Aubry's camp did not appear ready to relinquish victory.

"No one can deny the situation is complicated but no one can deny that Martine Aubry is the new first secretary of the Socialist Party," said her close adviser, Francois Lamy.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NYT: Across France, Cafe Owners Are Suffering

Marco Mayeux, 42, the bartender of Le Relais, a Paris cafe in the 18th Arrondissement, said the ban alone had cut his coffee and bar business by 20 percent.

"A place like mine doesn't appeal to everyone; it's very working-stiff," he said. "There is a coffee-at-the-counter feel that isn't attractive anymore."

Before, clients would go inside a cafe, have a coffee, a cigarette and another coffee. But now they go out to smoke, and sometimes they do not come back, many cafe owners said.

Gérard Renaud, 57, owner of the Restaurant de L'Église in Marsannay-la-Côte, said that business was down at least 30 percent. "Now people don't eat," he said. "They come in for a coffee or a little aperitif and that is it. We are used to being busy, but now we feel lazy, and it is depressing."

Ms. Guérin is trying to sell her cafe, but has had only one nibble in this lovely town of some 3,000 people, much visited by tourists, where the renowned hotel-restaurant Relais Bernard Loiseau is just down the street.




You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 08:30:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw this and was intrigued.  For those in France, is there a kernel of truth in this article?  Or is this pure [Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert] confabulation?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We get that a lot here: "the pubs are dying! the pubs are dying!" since the smoking ban. The incredible increase in the price of drink in pubs over the last decade has nothing to do with it, of course.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 06:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SPECIAL FOCUS Capitalism Crumbles Chapter Nine
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:22:37 PM EST
This has surely been posted before, but:

The Crisis & What to Do About It - by George Soros - The New York Review of Books

The salient feature of the current financial crisis is that it was not caused by some external shock like OPEC raising the price of oil or a particular country or financial institution defaulting. The crisis was generated by the financial system itself. This fact--that the defect was inherent in the system --contradicts the prevailing theory, which holds that financial markets tend toward equilibrium and that deviations from the equilibrium either occur in a random manner or are caused by some sudden external event to which markets have difficulty adjusting. The severity and amplitude of the crisis provides convincing evidence that there is something fundamentally wrong with this prevailing theory and with the approach to market regulation that has gone with it. To understand what has happened, and what should be done to avoid such a catastrophic crisis in the future, will require a new way of thinking about how markets work.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

Nov. 22 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. government may step in to rescue Citigroup Inc. after a crisis in confidence erased half the bank's stock-market value in three days, according to investors and analysts.

Citigroup's $2 trillion of assets dwarfs companies such as American International Group Inc. that got support from the U.S. government this year. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke may favor a rescue to avoid the chaotic aftermath of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.'s bankruptcy in September.

"Citi is in the category of `too big to fail,'" said Michael Holland, chairman and founder of Holland & Co. in New York, which oversees $4 billion. "There is a commitment from this administration and the next to do what it takes to save Citi."

One option is for the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury to create a special vehicle to purchase bad assets from Citi. The Fed has already erected several such funds, such as the Commercial Paper Funding Facility, to provide liquidity to the financial system. Typically, the Treasury would provide some first-loss equity or insurance fee, such as $50 billion provided to the CPFF, to protect the central bank and give the fiscal authority a stake.


by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:28:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
afew:
to create a special vehicle to purchase bad assets from Citi

yup, a chamberpot for their highnesses, pronto!

special vehicle, my ass...

how long are the public going to continue wiping their incontinent nether regions?

especially a public that's seeing the gold of years of hard work stored in savings plans and pensions, turned to shit by these reverse midas's...

who's going to bail out the government, when it's finished bailing out its friends?

prole power, that's what. put yer shoulder to the wheel, don't just sit there watching the money channel, do something meaningful to bring change, go shopping!

earn to shop, cradle to grave, 'appy sheeple, we!

funny how the chinese are discovering the joys of capitalism, while we in the west are heading towards socialism (but don't you dare call it that!).

blend well, allow to precipitate, and what will be left?

communocapitalism? capitocommunism?

oh, well i'm sure our enlightenment principles will arrive to save the day, lol.

funnier, still, i actually have forced myself to believe that, or i'd throw in the towel...

yes we can...

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:23:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nationalisation threat to banks - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

The Government is using the threat of a wholesale nationalisation of banks in an attempt to force institutions to lend billions to small companies struggling to survive as Britain slips into recession.

Downing Street yesterday made plain its fury over high street banks which refuse to use the massive injection of taxpayers' money they have received to come to the rescue of businesses hit by the credit crisis. Lenders have also faced criticism over interest rates charged to homeowners and for stepping up repossessions.

Meanwhile, Gordon Brown dismissed suggestions that he should take advantage of his reviving popularity by calling a June general election, insisting he was fully focused on steering Britain out of the downturn, starting with Monday's pre-Budget report.

It will spell out plans for tax cuts and assistance for the country's 4.7 million small firms. The aid will be funded by increases in government borrowing, which is on course to exceed £100bn next year. Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, will also announce that taxes will have to rise in the medium term to reduce the national debt. The financial stimulus package is designed to breathe new life into the economy but Mr Darling fears the behaviour of the banks could undermine the moves.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:01:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to do something like this?  How about a Geithner with Obama standing behind him?

Is this what the U.S. will need to do to Citigroup and the rest of the lot?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:14:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The banks will be thinking it's largely an empty threat. It's certainly pressure, but the pound would be hammered into the ground if there was any serious chance of this happening.

Also, most banks are partly international, so nationalising (say) Barclays would be an interesting administrative challenge - far more complicated than nationalising NR or B&B.

Likewise I doubt the US will nationalise anything or anyone, because that would be [shudder...] socialism.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would probably be more effective to beef up some relatively healthy regional banks with federal capital given with the explicit understanding that it was to be used for financing commercial paper, letters of credit, student loans, etc. subject to specified credit worthiness, with a specified degree of federal risk underwriting in return for offering said credit at terms that would enable the loan recipients to carry on the financed activity in a beneficial manner.  The problem would be getting the terms right and being able to have confidence that the regulators were actually trying to promote the public good as defined by more than just the financial elites who have been the beneficiaries of all of the bailout largess to date.  I doubt it should even be attempted until after Jan 20.

The recipients of bailout money to date are probably waiting to see if the terms of their credit default liabilities are triggered.  I remain convinced that these products need to be voided or quickly unwound.  If triggered, they could set off a financial Armageddon.  That creates the mother of all financial uncertainties, with the consequences we see all around.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 10:06:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In last night's Open Thread, metatone flag a disconcerting piece by Michael Pettis arguing that China is persisting in trying to export its way out of apparently increasing unemployment while restricting imports by appreciating the yuan.

Two paragraphs in particular jumped out at me, excerpted by Pettis from a response he wrote to an Op Ed by Niall Ferguson:

Today it is China who is exporting overcapacity and it is the US who is consuming too much, fed by Chinese financing.   With the collapse of bank intermediation US households and businesses are cutting consumption and raising savings.  This is a necessary adjustment.  Calling on the US government to engage in massive fiscal expansion to replace lost private demand is crazy.  It means that we should continue the current game that has led us into so much trouble, but instead of having US over-consumption and rising debt at the private level we must have it at the public level.

If Keynes were around today he would probably make the same point he did over 60 years ago.  Demand must be created by the current account surplus countries, which have, to date, relied on net exports to protect themselves from the consequence of their overcapacity.  They must force demand up quickly in order to close the gap, and since expecting private consumption to rise quickly enough is unrealistic, it has to be public consumption - a large fiscal deficit.

Is that true?  Would Keynes have objected to the US government's trying to engage in massive fiscal expansion to replace lost private demand?

As for the second paragraph, as Pettis must surely know already, China is following the Keynesian prescription exactly.  I don't quite understand why Pettis does not acknowledge that China is already doing what he recommends it should do, or at least the first half of his recommendation:

China needs to resolve this problem by expanding fiscally, not by stimulating exports.

His complaint about stimulating exports and restricting imports is well taken, though, and I will be paying more attention to that issue especially in light of headlines like "'China, US should fight protectionism'".

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 05:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migrants return home as job layoffs, land reform

Many migrant workers in south China's Guangdong Province returned to their home provinces in the wake of the global financial crisis. But it is not the only reason, officials of the local labor and railway authorities said.

China's latest decision to expand transfers of land-use rights held by farmers also attracted some migrant workers to rush home.

Liu Hong, a farmer of Sichuan, was waiting for a home-bound train with his wife at Guangzhou Railway Station this week.

"We need to finish some sub-lease documents and come back to work as soon as possible," he said.

The trip was made after China issued a breakthrough rural policy last month, allowing farmers to lease their contracted farmland or transfer their land use right, which will give farmers opportunities to conduct scale management and new business operations.

In the past, farmland was collectively owned, but meted out to farmers in small plots on long term leasing contracts.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Investments that reduce the US current account deficit and increase our competitiveness are the only ones that should be on the table now.  Obama appears to be on this track, judging from his weekly address today.  China should be demanding exports from the US that can be used to improve the standard of living by lower income Chinese, or anything that they need that the USA could supply, even if they could get such imports cheaper from others.  They already have the US currency to pay for such exports from us.  If we cannot address that need we are truly screwed.  If they do not try to increase imports from the USA both countries will be hurt, USA probably more than China.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 10:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Worst of financial crisis yet to come: IMF chief economist

Adam Dupont (From The Raw Story)
Published: Saturday November 22, 2008

ZURICH, Switzerland (AFP) -- The IMF's chief economist has warned that the global financial crisis is set to worsen and that the situation will not improve until 2010, a report said Saturday.  Olivier Blanchard also warned that the institution does not have the funds to solve every economic problem.

"The worst is yet to come," Blanchard said in an interview with the Finanz und Wirtschaft newspaper, adding that "a lot of time is needed before the situation becomes normal."  He said economic growth would not kick in until 2010 and it will take another year before the global financial situation became normal again.

-Skip-

Withdrawals of capital leading to problems of liquidity "can be so significant that the IMF alone cannot counter them," he said, adding that massive withdrawals of investments from emerging countries could represent "hundreds of billions of dollars.

"We do not have this money. We never had it," he said.



As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 10:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dollar Strength Sustainability
Friday, 21 November 2008, by London Banker

Coincident with the passage of the Paulson Plan in early October, the top prime brokers (MS, GS, JPM) issued margin calls on hedge funds which raised the average margin required from about 15 percent to about 35 percent. At a time of fragility in global markets and global confidence, this was equivalent to the sudden contraction of global market liquidity by a trillion dollars or so. A huge sell off in quality assets followed as hedge fund managers struggled to meet the margin calls.

-Skip-

Trillions of dollars of value were wiped off the balance sheets of the world's investors over the next few weeks as forced selling forced prices lower and lower. Adding to the selling pressure, many hedge funds were simultaneously raising cash for redemption demands of investors also squeezed by margin calls by their creditors.

I'm sure none of this was intentional (wink, wink). I'm sure there was no coordination among the prime brokers (nudge, nudge). I'm sure it would never occur to anyone in the Wall Street prime brokerage banks that manipulation of leverage could create profitable trading opportunities (cough, cough).

-Skip-

At the same time, we observed a huge expansion in the monetary base as the Fed doubled its balance sheet and Paulson doled out taxpayer largesse to Wall Street. The banks began to accumulate massive reserves and Treasury yields crashed lower, especially at the short end. Treasuries gained value as the prime brokers parked the incoming margin cash in the safest, most liquid asset - the primary collateral for all interbank obligations too. These reserves and Treasuries are just sitting in the Fed and not contributing one iota to the stimulation of the economy.

-Skip-

What happens to the global markets when the deleveraging stops? What happens when there are no more global margin calls on the surviving hedge funds? Will anyone want to buy dollars when they don't need them to repay dollar debt?

Read the entire post for a look inside the sausage factory.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 11:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The turmoil in world financial markets has been as though Wall Street took a sudden deep breath and held it. Are we now waiting for the exhale?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 11:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's hard to feel sorry for hedge funds now being squeezed by the big banks - after all, hedge fund people are mostly coming from the very same banks, that they left for "greener" pastures...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 04:15:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed, but if the stock market sell off was due to the mother of all margin calls a number of questions arise:

  1.  Was this the result of "guidance" from Treasury, the  Fed or the SEC?  Else, how did all of these banks come to change the margin by the same amount?

  2.  Why was this done and why was it done the way it was done?  Given what London Banker lays out it is hard to imagine that "no one could have foreseen" the effects this would have on global stock markets.

  3.  Were there alternatives?

  4.  Why has Congress not asked Paulson, Bernanke and Cox  these questions?

This seems like a massive example of a particular answer to the old ethical dilemma of the switchman who sees a run away train and can chose between victims depending on what switch action he takes.  Given the $ Trillions of lost value in retirement funds alone, these are questions that should be asked.  Perhaps by a prosecutor.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 10:39:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:23:15 PM EST
DEVELOPMENT-AFRICA: Time For Action on Violence Against Women
ADDIS ABABA, Nov 21 (IPS) - Continued violence against women is one of the focuses of a continental meeting reviewing progress made towards achieving gender equality in Africa.

Participants in the sixth African Development Forum (ADF VI) in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia's capital are putting their leaders to task over their failure to implement international declarations made to end violence against women.

"There is much talk and signing of these things, and less action," Botha Mbuyiselo, of Sonke Gender Justice Network in South Africa told IPS at the sidelines of the event.

"Our politicians need to move from rhetoric to action. They need find a proactive voice and act collectively against this violence," he remarked.

Girma Wolde-Giorgis, Ethiopia's president had echoed similar sentiments in his address at the opening of the Nov 19-21 meeting. "It is time to move from talk to action. It is time we focused on implementing what we have said, and make follow-up plans to see if we are recording achievements."
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Afghan Environmental Health Problems Legacy of Land-Grab
MAZAR-e-SHARIF, Afghanistan, November 21, 2008 (ENS) - Residents of Mazar-e-Sharif, Afghanistan's second -largest city, are suffering from a polluted environment caused by urban expansion on land seized by warlords.

Amad Samim, 15, was covered in dust from head to toe after his energetic football game with friends on the street of his neighborhood, Kart-e-Zahiruddin Farabi, in Mazar-e-Sharif.

"My neighbors yell at me when I play football, saying that I will smash their windows," he said, breathing heavily. "My family is also angry with me. They're afraid I'll get hit by a car."

One of his friends had his leg broken a few days ago when he was struck by a vehicle. "But where should we play football?" said Amad. "There is no playground or park. What are we supposed to do?"

A decades-old land grab has left Mazar-e-Sharif and much of the rest of Balkh province with little or no open areas or green spaces. While the government tries to cope with the nearly impossible task of reclaiming the land, residents are suffering the ill effects of living in a polluted environment devoid of trees and other vegetation.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tibetans Reaffirm a Conciliatory Path - NYTimes.com
After an intense debate on whether to begin a formal independence movement, the majority of delegates attending a conference of Tibetan exiles in northern India recommended Saturday that the Tibetan government in exile continue to adopt the Dalai Lama's conciliatory approach to China, a Tibetan spokesman said.

But in a sign of mounting frustration with fruitless negotiations with China, most delegates also advised the Tibetan government to end the dialogue until China shows real willingness to negotiate, the spokesman, Thubten Samphel, said in a telephone interview from Dharamsala, India.

The delegates made their recommendations at the end of a six-day conference called by the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of Tibetans worldwide, who has pursued a "middle way" approach in which he has called for China to grant autonomy to its six million Tibetans. The Dalai Lama has not called for Tibetan independence and prefers to deal with China without confrontation.

"The majority view is that the middle way approach is the best approach for now," Mr. Samphel said of the results of the conference.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 05:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Naomi Kline, in an interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy Now.
---So, just to give you one example that I discuss in the Rolling Stone piece, there's the general contractor, the really big contracting -- it's kind of the Halliburton of Treasury contracts -- went to the bank, Bank of New York Mellon. Bank of New York Mellon, by the way, is one of the nine banks that got the equity deals, the cash injections in exchange for equity. And they are also very deep in this derivatives mess themselves, but they have been hired to handle a huge part of the bailout. So what I argue in the piece is that we actually have it backwards. It's not the banks that have been partially nationalized; it's Treasury that has been partially privatized by the very banks that created the crisis in the first place.

Worth a read.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:02:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Playing with Greasemonkey and javascript.  I just happened to stumble onto this.

Op-Ed Columnist - Time for Him to Go - NYTimes.com

Thanksgiving is next week, and President Bush could make it a really special holiday by resigning.
...

If Bush gives up doing nothing by giving up his job, it's possible that someday history might elevate him to the ranks of the below average. Better than Franklin Pierce! Smarter than Warren Harding! And healthier than William Henry Harrison!

Go read the whole thing. It's a hoot.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 07:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Airstrike Kills Qaeda-Linked Militant in Pakistan - NYTimes.com

A British militant who was a liaison to Al Qaeda and was a main suspect in the plot to blow up trans-Atlantic airliners in 2006 was killed Saturday in a missile strike by an American aircraft in northern Pakistan, senior Pakistani and American officials said.

The militant, Rashid Rauf, was among the five people killed in the attack by a remotely piloted aircraft in North Waziristan, close to the Afghan border, the officials said. He is perhaps the best-known of the figures killed in an American airstrike campaign there that has intensified since August and has caused increased strains between the United States and Pakistan. <...>

... the Pakistani authorities have protested that the strikes are an infringement of national sovereignty and harm the government's efforts to persuade the Pakistani public that the war against the militants is in the country's interest.

Many Pakistanis argue that the American missile strikes are responsible for the suicide bomb attacks that have struck law enforcement targets, funerals and politicians in the North-West Frontier Province and in Islamabad, the capital.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 01:23:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Pakistan Test | NYTimes.com - Op-Ed Columnist - Nicholas Kristof

Barack Obama's most difficult international test in the next year will very likely be here in Pakistan. A country with 170 million people and up to 60 nuclear weapons may be collapsing. <...>

I've been coming to Pakistan for 26 years, ever since I hid on the tops of buses to sneak into tribal areas as a backpacking university student, and I've never found Pakistanis so gloomy. Some worry that militants, nurtured by illiteracy and a failed education system, will overrun the country or that the nation will break apart. I'm not quite that pessimistic, but it's very likely that the next major terror attack in the West is being planned by extremists here in Pakistan. <...>

The United States has squandered more than $10 billion on Pakistan since 9/11, and Pakistani intelligence agencies seem to have rerouted some of that to Taliban extremists. American forces periodically strike militants in the tribal areas, but people from those areas overwhelmingly tell me that these strikes just antagonize tribal leaders and make them more supportive of the Taliban.

One man described seeing Pashtuns in tribal areas throwing rocks in helpless frustration at the American aircraft flying overhead. <...>

Mr. Obama should make his first presidential trip to Pakistan -- and stop at a DIL school to remind Pakistan's army and elites that their greatest enemy isn't India but illiteracy.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 01:28:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Memo From Islamabad - Ringed by Foes, Pakistanis Fear the U.S., Too - News Analysis - NYTimes.com
A redrawn map of South Asia has been making the rounds among Pakistani elites. It shows their country truncated, reduced to an elongated sliver of land with the big bulk of India to the east, and an enlarged Afghanistan to the west.

That the map was first circulated as a theoretical exercise in some American neoconservative circles matters little here. <...>

Educated Pakistanis sometimes say that they are paranoid, but add that they believe they have good reason. <...>

... among ordinary Pakistanis, many still regard Al Qaeda more positively than the United States, polls find. Talk shows here often include arguments that the suicide bombings in Pakistan are payback for the Pakistani Army fighting an American war.

Some commentators suggest that the United States is actually financing the Taliban. The point is to tie down the Pakistani Army, they say, leaving the way open for the Americans to grab Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

Recently, in the officer's mess in Bajaur, the northern tribal region where the Pakistani Army is tied down fighting the militants, one officer offered his own theory: Osama bin Laden did not exist, he told a visiting journalist.

Rather, he was a creation of the Americans, who needed an excuse to invade Afghanistan and encroach on Pakistan.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 01:42:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Renewing American Leadership - Barack Obama | Foreign Affairs July/August 2007

... To renew American leadership in the world, we must forge a more effective global response to the terrorism that came to our shores on an unprecedented scale on 9/11. From Bali to London, Baghdad to Algiers, Mumbai to Mombasa to Madrid, terrorists who reject modernity, oppose America, and distort Islam have killed and mutilated tens of thousands of people just this decade. Because this enemy operates globally, it must be confronted globally.

We must refocus our efforts on Afghanistan and Pakistan -- the central front in our war against al Qaeda -- so that we are confronting terrorists where their roots run deepest. Success in Afghanistan is still possible, but only if we act quickly, judiciously, and decisively. We should pursue an integrated strategy that reinforces our troops in Afghanistan and works to remove the limitations placed by some NATO allies on their forces. Our strategy must also include sustained diplomacy to isolate the Taliban and more effective development programs that target aid to areas where the Taliban are making inroads.

I will join with our allies in insisting -- not simply requesting -- that Pakistan crack down on the Taliban, pursue Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants, and end its relationship with all terrorist groups. At the same time, I will encourage dialogue between Pakistan and India to work toward resolving their dispute over Kashmir and between Afghanistan and Pakistan to resolve their historic differences and develop the Pashtun border region. If Pakistan can look toward the east with greater confidence, it will be less likely to believe that its interests are best advanced through cooperation with the Taliban. ...

Barack Obama's plan for AFGHANISTAN & PAKISTAN (posted January 25, 2008)

The first step must be to get off the wrong battlefield in Iraq, and take the fight to the terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan. ...

Let me make this clear:  There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered three-thousand Americans.  They are plotting to strike again.  If we have actionable intelligence about high value terrorist targets and President Musharraf will not act, we will.

...

Interviewer: Members of the administration might say, you have to be sensitive to the very precarious position that Musharraf has in that country.

Obama:  I think that we should provide -- I state this explicitly in that speech -- all the support that we can for President Musharraf taking the right actions.  But what we can't do is simply allow al-Qaeda to operate in Pakistan the same way that it previously operated in Afghanistan.

<...>

The story that comes out of this speech may unduly focus on that aspect that, as you put it, "looks "muscular.  Alright?  Being willing to go after terrorists where they live.  But keep in mind that the other components of this speech were as important, if not more important.  If we don't win over the hearts and minds of 1.3 billion Muslims in this world, it is going to be very difficult for us to win the long war against extremism.

Nicholas Kristof says that While there are no easy solutions for the interlinked catastrophes unfolding in Pakistan and Afghanistan, there are several useful steps that we in the West can take to reduce the risk of the region turning into the next Somalia.

I hope that Obama can find and successfully execute these steps.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 02:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
marco:

Nicholas Kristof says that While there are no easy solutions for the interlinked catastrophes unfolding in Pakistan and Afghanistan, there are several useful steps that we in the West can take to reduce the risk of the region turning into the next Somalia.

I hope that Obama can find and successfully execute these steps.

Well, considering that the situation in Afghanistan is pretty similar to Somalia, I doubt it.

In both cases:

  1. A long civil war fragemented the nation
  2. The only ones able to gain broad support were forces leaning on strict interpretations of islam
  3. "The West" supported the violent overthrow of the islamic forces
  4. Upon which the situation returned to civil war

The West can do little for the stability in Afghanistan, other then leave and hope the afghanis sort out the situation. The West can do a lot for the stability in Pakistan, starting by leaving Afghanistan.

Obamas agenda looks like more war.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 03:44:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A swedish kind of death: Well, considering that the situation in Afghanistan is pretty similar to Somalia, I doubt it.

From Kristof's piece:

... there are several useful steps that we in the West can take to reduce the risk of the region turning into the next Somalia.

First, we should slow the financial flow to Pakistan's government and military. If the government wants to stop the Talibanization of Pakistan, its greatest need isn't money but the political will to stop sheltering Taliban leaders in the city of Quetta.

Second, we should cut tariffs on Pakistani agricultural and manufactured products to boost the economy and provide jobs. We should also support China on its planned export-processing zone to create manufacturing jobs in Pakistan.

Third, we should push much harder for a peace deal in Kashmir -- including far more pressure on India -- because Kashmir grievances empower Pakistani militants.

Fourth, let's focus on education. One reason the country is such a mess today is that half of all Pakistanis are illiterate.

A swedish kind of death: The West can do little for the stability in Afghanistan, other then leave and hope the afghanis sort out the situation.

This question tears me up.  As it does with respect to Iraq.  In the case of Iraq, we broke it, so I feel we ought to fix it.  Fortunately, it looks like Iraq is stabilizing enough where we can leave that country in (relatively) good conscience (given the circumstances).

In the case of Afghanistan, the Taliban brought the U.S. upon themselves, so to speak, by not handing over bin Laden and al-Qaeda.  So it's not like we "broke" Afghanistan.  In fact, aside from the opium production, the living conditions of Afghani people are arguably better than than they were under the Taliban (although I realize that is a very debatable claim.)

What bothers me a lot is the likelihood that if we leave the region to itself, then stories like this (also from Kristof's piece) will become far more commonplace:

One new cabinet member, Israr Ullah Zehri, defended the torture-murder of five women and girls who were buried alive (three girls wanted to choose their own husbands, and two women tried to protect them). "These are centuries-old traditions, and I will continue to defend them," Mr. Zehri said of the practice of burying independent-minded girls alive.

Maybe this is a hopeless situation, and outsiders cannot do anything to prevent the horrible injustices that these people inflict on their populations.  But I am far from convinced from that.  That was the unspoken rationale behind doing nothing during the Rwandan genocide, and that is the unspoken rationale behind doing nothing about Darfur.

Can we compel the Pakistani government and whoever winds up ruling Afghanistan (most likely the Taliban, if we leave) to stop such practices through non-military pressure and incentives?  Or do we have to wait and hope they sort out the situation on their own?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This question tears me up.  As it does with respect to Iraq.  In the case of Iraq, we broke it, so I feel we ought to fix it.

And we should bring all those dead people back to life while we're at it. Some things can't be fixed and I'm pretty sure the US lacks the tools to even ameliorate the destruction it caused. The whole milind-complex from the Pentagon down seems institutionally incapable of actually rebuilding anything. The only thing the US could possibly do imho is leave as soon as possible and take a few million refugees with them. And even that is probably politically impossible.

In the case of Afghanistan, the Taliban brought the U.S. upon themselves, so to speak, by not handing over bin Laden and al-Qaeda

I think even that wasn't as clear cut as you make it sound. Jonathan Schwarz wrote about the run up of the Afghanistan war:

A Tiny Revolution: How Is Jeffrey Goldberg Embarrassing His Fellow Homo Sapiens Today?

On September 21, Taliban official Abdul Salam Zaeef stated that they would not hand over bin Laden "without evidence," but that "if America has proof, we are ready for the trial of Osama bin Laden in light of the evidence." Zaeef also called for an investigation of the attacks by the UN and the Organization of the Islamic Conference. On September 25, the UK Independent reported (via Nexis) that "[Zaeef said] it was 'good news' that the US intended to produce its evidence against Mr bin Laden. This could help to solve the issue 'otherwise than fighting.'"

but

A Tiny Revolution: How Is Jeffrey Goldberg Embarrassing His Fellow Homo Sapiens Today?

On September 30, Bush chief of staff Andrew Card repeated Bush's stance from his September 20 address:

The president has said we're not negotiating...We've told the Taliban government what they should be doing. They've got to turn not only Osama bin Laden over but all of the operatives of the al Qaeda organization.


Wait this is important. Someone is wrong on the Internet.
by generic on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 10:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kristof is behind a subscription wall. Now that you liberated his list of points, I realise I partly agree.

I agree most with three. An external party can do miracles when it comes to getting parties to sit down at the table and negotiate. No guarantees for success, but if it is possible to disarm the Kashmir situation it is worth a shot. Then again Pakistan and India uses each other for mutual self-definition so it is quite possible that there is no will to get a peace agreement on terms both sides can agree to. The US is not the only state that constantly needs an enemy to motivate its citizen into paying a bloated military.

I agree partly with two. Partly because any program launched by the US for free trade with Pakistan is likely to end up mostly benefitting american companies and the pakistani elite. Judging from previous experience, that is.

One I agree with, but for different reasons. I think cutting the pakistani military off subsidise will rapidly lead to a decline of US influence and a pakistani foreign policy more in line with the popular sentiment in Pakistan. No more US transports to Afghanistan, as the other routes are Iran, Russia, China or insufficient roads through Kaukasus and the 'stans.

And four I agree with, though I suspect for different reasons and I suspect my program would look much different then Kristofs.

I understand why it tears you up, but as I see it we the people do not control our governements. When it comes to foreign policy states do not act altruisticly. Foreigners do not vote, and thus have no leverage. The best we can hope for is enlightened selfinterest. Like when the pillage of western Germany stopped because the US establishment figured out that it made communism look like a good alternative.

That we do not control our governments does not mean that we do not have influence. Voting matters, targeted protests and strikes often matters more, because it hurts more.

So we can not us our governments to build up stuff, because that takes a degree of control we do not have. We can try to stop them from blowing stuff up and assisting in pillage. Therefore I propose "First do no harm" as foreign policy principle.

Oh, and one thing we can do to make matters better for those suffering under brutal conditions is pushing for liberal asylum rules. The US could let the million or so (or is it millions?) displaced by the war in Iraq flee to the US. That would improve the situation for the refugees, as well as decreasing the strain on iraqi society. It won't, but it could.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
terrorists who reject modernity, oppose America, and distort Islam have killed and mutilated tens of thousands of people just this decade. Because this enemy operates globally, it must be confronted globally.

Yes, if they embrace modernity like america then they too can be a global player and get to kill hundreds of thousands of people in just one country.

Still the same old self-righteous Exceptionalism

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 09:17:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
Still the same old self-righteous Exceptionalism

Self-righteous and exceptionalist, maybe.  Same old, definitely not.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:23:41 PM EST
Vatican forgives John Lennon for Jesus remark | U.S. | Reuters

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican's newspaper has finally forgiven John Lennon for declaring that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, calling the remark a "boast" by a young man grappling with sudden fame.

The comment by Lennon to a London newspaper in 1966 infuriated Christians, particularly in the United States, some of whom burned Beatles' albums in huge pyres.

But time apparently heals all wounds.

"The remark by John Lennon, which triggered deep indignation mainly in the United States, after many years sounds only like a 'boast' by a young working-class Englishman faced with unexpected success, after growing up in the legend of Elvis and rock and roll," Vatican daily Osservatore Romano said.

The article, marking the 40th anniversary of the Beatles' "The White Album," went on to praise the pop band.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does that mean Lennon gets to go to heaven now?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's easy if you try....

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 11:00:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does this mean he's eligible for the Mormons to come and sort him out now?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 11:08:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pirates took just 16 minutes to steal super-tanker: military report
Pirates took just 16 minutes from boarding to seizing control of a 100-million-dollar-laden Saudi oil super-tanker in the Indian Ocean, a military report obtained by AFP showed Thursday.

The report also described the Sirius Star -- with woeful defences, restricted manoeuvrability and speed capacities owing to its 319,000-tonne oil cargo -- as a lumbering prey for two speedboats carrying well-armed pirates also applying the element of surprise by operating well out of their normal range.

The Somali pirates approached the tanker, the length of three football fields, at 0648 GMT Saturday and were able to climb aboard using the simplest of rope and hook techniques.

At 0704 GMT, Britain's Maritime Component Command centre in Bahrain reported that the tanker had been taken by the pirates.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:48:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Value Of Satellites Recognised For Conserving Wetlands
Wetlands contribute to our lives in remarkable ways by providing food and water, controlling floods, protecting against storms and supporting biodiversity, yet they are experiencing loss and degradation on a massive scale.

Wetlands are areas that are covered with water for long enough periods to support plants that thrive in wet soils, so they are not all wet year-round. The areas include marshes, swamps, bogs and wet meadows.

Countering their loss requires baseline information on wetland resources and effective monitoring programmes, but because they are often made up of complex and impenetrable terrain monitoring them is very difficult.

In this context ESA carried out the GlobWetland project from 2003 to 2008 in order to demonstrate how employing satellite data can support the inventorying, monitoring and assessing of wetland ecosystems. The project was carried out in collaboration with the Ramsar Convention - an international treaty for the conservation and sustainable use of wetlands.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Evil Debate - Bits Blog - NYTimes.com

... more than 100 Bits readers have added their arguments to the question of whether Google actually meets the evil-free standard it set for itself. Our readers were also quite divided, both on the morality of Google's actions and the reason for their judgment.

Some of those that see evil lurking in the heart of Mountain View object to Google's actions to limit search results in China. Others accused it of sins including bullying, hypocrisy, and invasion of privacy.

"EVIL!" declared George Burdell. "They are advertising company mining your data and flooding your eyeballs. Everything else is a trail of candy to get you into the store."

Some readers taking the view that Google should not be condemned, challenged the criticism of the as "full of holes," as Steve put it. And many praised the virtues of the company's services.

Try living in a foreign country.... (Thailand)......no libraries, minimum access to publications/books/news. Google is a savior!" wrote John Oles.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 05:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Try living in a foreign country.... (Thailand)......no libraries, minimum access to publications/books/news. Google is a savior!" wrote John Oles.
Not really. The Internet is the saviour, and more specifically the millions of people who post things on it. Google is merely a middle man.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 04:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
martingale: The Internet is the saviour, and more specifically the millions of people who post things on it. Google is merely a middle man.

True.  But that is one hell of a middleman, and in China is much appreciated.  (My Chinese colleagues have even gotten to using it as their default search engine.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 06:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some of us remember the net before G :)

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Mon Nov 24th, 2008 at 05:41:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Art of Translation : NPR

Living in America, it's easy to forget that most of the world does not speak English; and that much of the world's literature is not written in English. In order for us to read the best of what the rest of the world writes -- and in order for the rest of the world to experience our best literature -- skilled writers must work in the art of translation.

But it's not as straightforward as you might think. A good translation needs to be true to the original and able to stand on its own for a new audience.

Bea Basso, who came from Italy to the United States in 2000 to study and work in theater, has done a lot of translating from Italian to English. She says that the choice of a single word can determine the arc of an entire work.

"There is no such thing as a literal translation, by nature of choosing one word or another, you influence the next step," she says.

But word choice is just the beginning. Sound also plays an integral part in transmitting meaning, especially when it comes to translating poetry. And regional linguistic differences can factor into a work, too -- which is why Basso (who's from Venice) found it odd when she was asked to translate plays by Neapolitan author Eduardo De Filippo. ...



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gah, aren't translators supposed to translate to their mother languages ? Of course, Bea Basso might be bilingual...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:26:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
linca: Of course, Bea Basso might be bilingual...

From her accent, she does not sound like a native English speaker, but she has been in the U.S. since 2000 and in the clip she speaks fluently.  Having said that, the first thing she says in the interview --

There is no such thing as a literal translation.  By nature of choosing one word rather than another, you in some way influence the next step.

-- does not feel altogether natural or "correct" to me.  While I easily understand her meaning, I am not sure if a native English speaker would say it this way.  Of course, unrehearsed spoken language and professional translation are two quite different activities.

The other two translators in the clip sound like native English speakers.

Douglas R. Hofstadter's Le Ton beau de Marot: In Praise of the Music of Language is a brilliant and fun exploration of the challenges of translation.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 12:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know, her comment sounds about right to me.  Translating English to Japanese, and vice versa, I am rarely able to say much that, literally, is the same.  Given that Japanese is fond of dropping the subjects as much as possible (Japanese is big on implicit subjects), and occasionally the objects (inferred from context), it results in translating something as simple as "I ate it," to "Ate (informal" or "Ate (formal)".

I can see arguments for translators coming from both sides - to native language, or from one's native language.  It depends on which is more important - implicit understanding of the source, or of the target.

by Zwackus on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 03:11:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Zwackus: I don't know, her comment sounds about right to me.

Sorry, I meant that the actual utterance she made did not seem quite natural or correct to me:

By nature of choosing one word rather than another, you in some way influence the next step.

I am not quite sure how I would rephrase this, but maybe:

By/In the (very) nature of choosing one word rather than another...

or maybe,

In the very process of choosing one word rather than another...

But again, this is probably beside the point, as spontaneous speech and crafting professional translations are two very different activities.  Furthermore, even native speakers regularly utter sentences which would need much editing if transcribed for publication.

Zwackus: I can see arguments for translators coming from both sides - to native language, or from one's native language.  It depends on which is more important - implicit understanding of the source, or of the target.

Agreed.  But for literature, a translator better have at least native-level competency in the target language.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 04:30:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am just today composing some arguments about language use, for a proposed fairly anarchist (sex, drugs, rock, corruption etc)  site, with user-generated content. The site is intended as an interface for getting to a print magazine.

In Finland, Finnish is the dominant language. Swedish is a minority language, carrying some baggage of historical political cultural domination that many Finns resent. Finns have to learn Swedish at school ('Forced Swedish'), but will rarely use it, unless cornered. On the other hand, a Swedish speaking friend tested the legally imposed bilingual system in calls to a hospital. He demanded to speak Swedish - as was his right. No-one could be found. He was directed to another hospital in another district where he was told he could not be treated for location reasons.

Added to this, English has permeated the younger Finnish culture to such an extent that a foreigner in club will be able to speak English all night with anyone who takes his fancy.

And then there's Russian ;-)

The people behind the proposed new venture themselves identify with the Swedish minority, though they are fully fluent in Finnish and English also. Their language conundrum is that not only are Swedish speakers a minority in Finland, and thus probably a size of audience that cannot reach 'critical mass' as far as users is concerned, but that the quasi-anarchist aims of the magazine are unlikely to appeal to the spoilt  'Pappa betaler - Daddy Pays' young Swedish speakers.

What I am pointing out to them is that it is possible, using CMS, to have multiple language input and single language output. With tagging, it is fairly easy for any user to set up the site to display content to their own preferences - including language.

A summary of any article text, in any language, is to be supplied by the submittor. Such a summary would need to be written in simple Heminwayesque language for which a good automatic translation can be obtained.

BTW the site is intended for photo-journalists, so some articles could work purely pictorially. But at some point, the 'best' content submissions are peer-judged for inclusion in the single language print version. At that point translation into the single language is needed.

This could be achieved by the combination of google translator and hand editing by the community. The motivation would be a share (as a translator) in a Pool à la Cook that would receive the income generated by the print version, which is to be a freebie financed by ad income.

There are also general aims I proposed that such a pool would not be paid out in micro-payments, but be allowed to build up until members voted on how to invest it, or part of it, in other RW projects. The number of content  'shares' that a member owned would define their voting power.

Another aspect I proposed was that all the financial dealings of the site and the print version would be available, totally transparently, to all members.

The alternative model is to use a similar micro-payments system to the music sharing site Equal Dreams - which pays external royalties and sales taxes before micro-paying into a user account. But there is always an overhead on getting your money out as a user. It is only worth doing with a largish amount (say over 1000 €), and that has to be reported by both the payer and the payee because it is still income-taxable.

I am suggesting that the first LETS-type version might be more powerful.

The initial start-up funding for the site is to be technology-sourced, not politically-sourced.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 09:25:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fascinating.  I am wondering whether some of those ideas cannot be applied elsewhere.... ;-)

Pool à la Cook

as in Chris, not Captain, I presume?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As in Chris, of course ;-)

The main reason they should get the development money for the project is precisely those 'other applications'. In other words they are trying to build a better engine to enable user generated and managed content.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 07:25:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
KLATSCH
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:24:07 PM EST
thanks, afew.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:56:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hope it's not too late for you!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(not that i wanted to!)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most Beautiful Bottom in the World | China Daily

Brazil's Melanie Nunes Fronckowiak (R) and France's Saiba Bombote pose after they won the female and male final of the "Most Beautiful Bottom in the World" competition in Paris November 12, 2008.[Agencies]



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:54:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not surprised that a Brazilian woman won.  I would be surprised if a Japanese woman ever won.  Let's just say that Sir Mix-a-Lot would not be happy here.
by Zwackus on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 03:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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