European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

So did the global financial crisis solve the global food crisis?

Perhaps---if we solve the Letter of Credit problem. Two months and counting.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:45:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Crumbs J, last night was an anomaly. I've never known it so quiet. And coming after a quiet weekend...but we had some good OTs last week.

I think it doesn't help that there's not much going on. All of politics is financial at the moment and that's a specialist subject for just a few of us. nothing else is happening. I can't talk about what's happening regarding the trans community and our relationship with the wider LGb grouping cos there's nothing to say. Talks about talks is as good as it gets. And even that is of bugger all interest to most of you.

And that's it.... So of course it's quiet. not helped by me being out tonight.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:15:38 AM EST

There's more than finance! (none / 0)

There's usually good stuff in the OT, but that makes ET a bit too insider-y. It would be nice to have some of these discussions on the front page or even in diaries.

We hardly ever have "object" diaries, apart from the DoDo train series.

and we need to have more non-financial non-energy stuff. It's not because it's all I can write about that this should be true of the whole site!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:48:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Without wishing to re-open recently closed wounds but we tried that and discovered that some people have issues with that.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:51:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who has "issues" with including "non-financial non-energy stuff"? Yet again, some of us do have "issues" with this sort allegation. Personally I not only welcome such variety, I've also written a diaries about a wide range of subjects.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:07:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

With what? (none / 0)

Are you saying that any topic outside finance and energy turns into a food fight?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:09:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As you can see, I only have to raise the issue of how some diaries are responded to to be on the receiving end of angry accusations. I'd really prefer that if people don't like such things they leave them alone.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:17:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What I see there are questions, not angry accusations. Perhaps you don't perceive how blanket negative your own comment was?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:27:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With what? (4.00 / 4)

Indeed, you say tom-ah-to, I say tom-ay-toe. I know there are perception issues about some of my comments. An issue we have occasionally discussed, although not always to your satisfaction I fear.

However, the nature of the reaction I caused does indicate that some subjects are hard to broach. I can write diaries such as the ones i have up at the moment, but these are few and far between. I simply have neither the intellectual or evidence based resources to do these very often.

Yet other sorts of diaries.. we have demonstrated time after time that there is a hostility towards them. I am disinclined to seek the evidence for that although I imagine it will be demanded. But that is mine and others' perception. So they are not written.

It's a silencing tactic, but it works.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:47:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yet other sorts of diaries.. we have demonstrated time after time that there is a hostility towards them. I am disinclined to seek the evidence for that although I imagine it will be demanded.

It's completely false to say that "hostility" has been "demonstrated" - even one time - where? But I've learned that it's a bit of a waste of time asking for evidence from those who think their opinion should be enough.

Yet again, I have not seen ANY evidence of "hostility" to diary content itself which is about personal content, or deals with non economic, non energy issues. Sometimes diary discussions go on deal with other kinds of issues from those central to the diarist's concerns. That's not evidence of "hostility" but of the simple fact that people get interested in a variety of issues - though that may annoy some writers of diaries and assumed by them to be motivated by "hostilty".

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:22:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With what? (4.00 / 7)

Oh, please. Ted. Even you have been jumped on coarsely at times.

I agree with Helen. There are topics that others might be interested in which get jumped on by people who feel the need to nay-say, very sternly so.

I agree with Helen. In some of those cases, it would be best if they just stayed away. But instead of the critical ones censoring themselves, the writers self-censor.

Notwithstanding, I think that a partial answer might be to figure a way to bring interesting Open Topic threads to the attention of those who only read the Salon.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:33:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Even you have been jumped on coarsely at times."

Indeed, but not for anything I wrote in my somewhat personal travel diaries, for example. The only thing which fits your description is the "jumping on" by the one doing the complaining here. But I still maintain that nobody, as far as I'm aware, expressed "hostility", certainly not to the personal content of a diary, while discussions may have to led to the expression of scepticism (not the same as "hostility") about some of the more general issues raised. In Wales did a personal diary about "woo woo" stuff (her borrowed label) and seemed happy with the wide-ranging discussion. The Lasthorseman included some pretty far out stuff in his recent diary, but because it was a very personal diary everybody tip-toed around that, including me, even when Gianne referred me back to it.

I agree with afew, there shouldn't be little ghettoes for believers and sceptics, etc. but open discussion about the general issues raised in any diary.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:17:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With what? (4.00 / 2)

I hate to say it, but the very tone of that comment comes across as accusatory, if not hostile. Maybe you don't mean it to look that way. But it does.

When responding to someone who says, "I feel this way," an immediate response along the lines of, "Where's your evidence? Are you sure you're not making this up?" comes across as hostile.

by Zwackus on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 04:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Zwackus: "I feel this way".

Helen: "...we have demonstrated time after time that there is a hostility towards them".

But is it worth my pointing out the difference?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 04:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've stayed my keyboard long enough. Isn't it worth thinking about the fact that there appear to be several people here who are upset in some way because of their perceptions - which to them are real, and thus the so called evidence that you call for is irrelevant to them, but apparently necessary for others - and that there might be fault on both sides?

Don't you think it might be better to take a lighter, more conciliatory tone? There are many things wrong with ET and many things right. ET is not one-size-fits-all. Accept diversity, me duck ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can I just say, that comment, coming from you ... I'm speechless!

Where do I send the flowers?

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You said it more precisely elsewhere. I'm better with the stuff that amuses me me me.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

upset in some way because of their perceptions - which to them are real, and thus the so called evidence that you call for is irrelevant to them

Even those in minority groups who sometiimes feel very offended recognise that claims that one feels offended do not settle matters:

House of Lords:
What I wondered is whether the Sikh community have got experience of reporting incidents to the police which they think constitute good reasons for bringing a case and for being confident that a conviction will occur and still finding that the police are not taking action, or that the police cannot get the cases past the Crown Prosecution Service.
(Dr Singh) No, we do not have evidence of that
...
While I say the blasphemy laws should go, they seem to be too dated, there should be something similar which allows freedom of discussion, real discussion, which is so important we should get behind the superficial niceness of dialogue to real discussion because a lot of things that we say are religious are really cultural things that should have gone years ago.
...
but the tests are the hurt it causes.
Lord Avebury
527. You get differences in the perception of what could be --
(Dr Singh) But then, against that we must have the second, it must be offensive. People could, of course, say that anything is offensive, you should not say this or you should not say that, but there should be a second test of the real damage done as well. It should not be just a cursory statement that "I feel offended by this". There should be a quantification of the damage that is alleged to have been caused.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldselect/ldrelof/95/2112703.htm

ET is not one-size-fits-all. Accept diversity, me duck ;-)

I think that's what he's defending:

afew:
The community isn't organized around separate clubs with non-club-members excluded, and diarists don't get to choose who joins in the discussion. That's how this place has functioned up to now, and that's what people are, understandably enough, used to.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:18:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not an immediate response, this comes out of an extended discussion of the matter in relation to a personal diary and the clear evidence of her diary itself that nobody was "hostile" to the diary as such. In fact she started the hostility. But she continues to try to suggest that there are people here who "have issues with" even to so broad a category as diaries about non economic non energy issues.

I suggest you study afew's response too. I wouldn't quite agree with him that "hostility" has been expressed towards "spiritual" diaries, but rather scepticism about some of the claims of those writing about "spiritual" matters. I'm pretty sceptical about some approaches to the "spiritual" but I read with interest this book some years ago:

In this challenging series of dialogues with nineteen artists, writers, philosophers and critics, art critic Suzi Gablik addresses these and other central questions about the meaning and future of art in an age of accelerating social change and spiritual uncertainty. In conversations that are by turns intense, personal, philosophical, intimate and poignant
... Thomas Moore, author of Care of the Soul and archetypal psychologist James Hillman show how art's present crisis of meaning is tied to the broader context of our contemporary social and spiritual crises.

And what do you know, I share Obama's mum's liking for this TV series:

One of Ann's favorite spiritual texts was "Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth," a set of PBS interviews with Bill Moyers that traces the common themes of religion and mythology,
http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php

So there's certainly no hostility on my part even to the spiritual - per se.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With what? (4.00 / 7)

You misunderstand me. Jérôme spoke of subjects beyond finance and energy. You immediately replied "we tried that", as if you were talking about all subjects beyond those two, which is why I said "blanket negative".

Now you say "other sorts of diaries". You can't be talking about political diaries, you currently hold the two top spots in the rec list with political subjects. I don't think you're talking about personal-experience diaries either, since there have been many of them on ET, always well received, including a fine list of your own. So far from being absent on ET, personal-experience diaries are (and always have been) a feature of ET.

So I can only think you mean diaries about spirituality. Yes, they incur some hostility from those who don't believe in a spiritual plane. The hostility works both ways, however. If I were to write a diary saying what I think of spirituality, I guarantee it would set off a storm. Which is why I don't write it. These are issues that divide us, and I think they are not susceptible of rational discussion on a forum like this in such a way that we might reach agreement, or even an empathetic understanding of the other's position.

What you are suggesting, it seems to me, is that those who don't agree with "spiritual" discourse should stay out of such diaries. So you'd accept as reasonable that those people could have their own diaries of "anti-spiritual" discourse, from which the "pro-spiritual" should stay out. But putting up a diary here means accepting comments from other members (within limits concerning excessive language, insults, etc). The community isn't organized around separate clubs with non-club-members excluded, and diarists don't get to choose who joins in the discussion. That's how this place has functioned up to now, and that's what people are, understandably enough, used to.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

[minstrels] Big Whorls Have Little Whorls -- Lewis F. Richardson

"I'd really prefer that if people don't like such things they leave them alone."

What does "such things" refer to, which, allegedly, some people "don't like" ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:42:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Objects? (4.00 / 5)

I can only talk about rocks...

Today, most of what I did consisted of understanding the cartographic symbology of symmetrical and asymmetrical anticlines and monoclines.

I'm afraid that's as exciting as it gets.

Don't see the banana; just be the banana. *crazed scientist-y look and mad glint in eye *

by Nomad on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:05:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Objects? (4.00 / 6)

As it happens, Nomad, you don't only write about rocks, you write brilliant personal-experience diaries about your life in Jo'burg. ;)

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:09:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Objects? (none / 1)

seconded

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:18:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The beauty of science (4.00 / 3)

What looks like a nice example of abstract art to brighten a dark evening for most of us, while Nomad might understand the accompanying text :-)

Visualized Turbulence (Image 2) The distribution of vorticity in developing Mach 1 turbulence, as computed with the PPM gas dynamics code on the TeraGrid cluster at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA) in 2003 using a computational grid of over 8 billion cells. This series of images shows the vorticity as it evolves through the transition of fully developed turbulence. The vorticity, which measures the amount of shear in the flow, highlights thin surface-like regions in the flow across which the flow speed changes very rapidly. Later in the development of the turbulence, these sheets of vorticity roll up to form a large number of vortex tubes or filaments, which, especially given the high flow speeds here, are somewhat akin to tornadoes.
http://www.nsf.gov/news/mmg/mmg_disp.cfm?med_id=62873&from=mmg

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:18:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

IANAMS (4.00 / 8)

(I Am Not A Material Scientist)

But I was reminded of:

Big whorls have little whorls
That feed on their velocity,
And little whorls have lesser whorls
And so on to viscosity.

by Nomad on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IANAMS (4.00 / 3)

I posted a history of that poem here.

Fluid dynamics is not materials science.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:14:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

IANAFDS, either (none / 1)

(I Am Not A Fluid Dynamics Specialist, either)

But you kinda knew that. Nice bubble verse BTW.

At least a glaring error gets you commenting. Still travelling?

by Nomad on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IANAMS (none / 0)

??? Not even if you leave out momentum?

by asdf on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:37:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IANAMS (none / 0)

Wellll....

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 01:47:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Objects? (none / 1)

And speaking of rocks:

GOOD News: Secret Life of Rocks

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:38:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, good (none / 1)

At least rocks have a life...

</bitter>

On a serious note, an alike proposal has been made by one of the more controversial professors (Schuiling) of my former university. Last year, if I recall, he went to Turkey to see how feasible it would be to create peridotite pebble beaches - beaches and saline water would be a good spot to enhance chemical weathering. Don't know how that ended, but I'll find out during my Christmas break - a friend of mine came along. Schuiling's name pops up here and there on the web.

In praise of olivine...

by Nomad on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, good (none / 0)

Good for sauna stones?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Objects? (4.00 / 2)

Limestone was laid down in shallow seas, at least partly as a product of the life cycle of plankton. The shells of the dead plankton and other marine life fall to the sea floor, and, under the right conditions, get converted to limestone. This process was likely a major factor in the long term reduction of the amount of atmospheric CO2.

But the process is neither simple nor straightforward. This is why "seeding" the ocean with iron oxide to cause a plankton bloom is an uncertain longtime means of capturing CO2. Limestone deposits are often found in alteration with shale deposits. That would seem to indicate that the process turns on and off. That, in turn, might enable some insight into how to cultivate this process on a geologic scale.

Perhaps the melting of polar ice caps will result in the creation of new shallow seas which will turn this process back on. That solution is likely to be rather slow from a human perspective, but that might not matter---in the long run. Nomad should be able to amplify and/or correct this comment.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's usually good stuff in the OT, but that makes ET a bit too insider-y.

Yeah - that never happens in diaries... I know he's a provacateur, and you all have issues with him, but I am actually feeling a little sorry for ValentinD.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought ValentinD was a she? And considering how the debate could have gone, it's been a very interesting one and useful for drawing out many issues.

I hope it is largely demonstrating that people can be at absolute apparent odds with each others arguments and views but without all civility breaking down.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:19:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's more than finance! (4.00 / 3)

Definitely a He :)

Why would anyone be sorry about myself? The only thing that bothers me are angry or annoyed reactions.
I thought I'd post the ideology stuff on my diary, so if no one wants to talk about it, no one will comment, and I won't come off as a provocateur. :)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Definitely a He :)

Funny, I too could swear I read some poster (not In Wales) refer to you as a "she"... not that it matters, except for the language (you should all learn a proper a-sexist language like Hungarian, dammit ;-))

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The source of your mistake is this diary where indeed some confusion on Valentin's gender is introduced in the comments thread.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:46:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Possibly -- though I skipped most of that discussion.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's more than finance! (4.00 / 3)

Since Valentin is usually a masculine name (right? Am I imagining this?) I just assumed - but I don't see how it makes a difference one way or another.

Anyway - no sense in beating dead horses. If people can't see the connection between perceived lack of diverse content and the repeated concerns expressed by those who try to post diverse content by now - I can't help them.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So who exactly is shutting up people? (4.00 / 2)

Let's have names. Please. I'm getting sick of these accusations thrown in there with no proof, no exemples, no names.

If X is a prick, call him a prick. But don't moan that he's censoring you. The site is not more his than yours, and not less.

I'm not expecting you to notice anti-French bias. Don't expect me to notice anti-poemless or anti-woowoo or anti-whatever bias.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 04:52:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who exactly is shutting up people? (none / 0)

Is this supposed to be a response to my comment, or is it misposted?

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, it'sa reply to this: (none / 0)

If people can't see the connection between perceived lack of diverse content and the repeated concerns expressed by those who try to post diverse content by now - I can't help them.

Are you not suggesting that the "concerns expressed by those who try to post diverse content" are ignored?

Thus my question? By whom? How?

I suppose that given how much I praise technocratic elites, I should not be surprised to be blamed for being The Man.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, it'sa reply to this: (4.00 / 3)

Let's have names. Please. I'm getting sick of these accusations thrown in there with no proof, no exemples, no names.

I will repeat myself: If people can't see the connection between perceived lack of diverse content and the repeated concerns expressed by those who try to post diverse content by now - I can't help them.

If X is a prick, call him a prick. But don't moan that he's censoring you. The site is not more his than yours, and not less.

I have no idea what you are talking about now. I've not thought anyone a "prick" (except Rahm Emanuel, and I did call him that.) And aside from Rahm, who is my elected representative, so I feel entitled, I do not think I will join you in advocating name-calling. I am not a fan of that method.

I've also not claimed anyone is censoring me.

Others have claimed they feel the preference for self-censorship in light of the way their diaries have been received. I was acknowledging that several people here have said as much. You explicitly asked for more content. Yet absence better explanation, you appear unwilling to acknowledge that some long-time members prefer self-censorship, or to seriously advocate a more tolerant atmosphere. It's your prerogative - I frankly don't care. I write what I want anyway. But you asked for more content. It's kinda of like trying to talk to a wall. The message does not appear to be getting through to you. I can't figure out why. And of course, it is not just you. In fact, it is a whole culture. But it is your post I am responding to.

I'm not expecting you to notice anti-French bias. Don't expect me to notice anti-poemless or anti-woowoo or anti-whatever bias.

Anti-poemless bias?!!! Where?!!! I'll smoke the bastards out!

Oh. Wait. No one has mentioned any anti-poemless bias. You just made that up. I believe the technical jargon for that is "strawman."

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 05:49:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, it'sa reply to this: (none / 0)

What are you guys even talking about? Have I missed some huge ET war or what? I mean, since the br*ad ch*rch event?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, it'sa reply to this: (none / 1)

I don't even know either. But thanks for reminding me of Broad Church-gate. I forgot that there is an anti-poemless bias here. Now I am sad. </snark alert!> (since French snark radars do not seem to be capable of detection at the moment. So much for French technology.) (<--Blatent anti-French bias. Yes, I can detect and propagate!)

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 06:05:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BBC News | French 'virgin' ruling reversed:

A French court of appeal has overruled the decision to annul the marriage of two Muslims because the bride had lied about being a virgin.
They are now effectively married again - even though both partners said they accepted the original judgement.
That verdict had caused emotional debate and outrage among some feminists, who said it amounted to a "fatwa" against women's liberty.
But the husband's lawyers said the case had nothing to do with religion.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:20:15 AM EST

Crikey where do you start with this ? Everything about it stinks, but if they both want to get divorced, let 'em get divorced. Why the bs excuses about virginity ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:31:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They can divorce (4.00 / 3)

What they initially wanted was an annulment rather than a divorce; and the grounds was that she lied to him about a "fundamental" part of who she was (ie being a virgin).

There was outrage that virginity could be seen as grounbds for annulment, although some narrow legalistic interpretations focused on the lying part were brought forward (and then rejected by many on the grounds that virginity should not be a fundamental issue and making it so was degrading to women).

So they don't get an annulment and now will divorce.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

WOMBAT (4.00 / 2)

This whole thing was Waste Of Money, Brains and Time.

They both wanted the marriage annulled. He was a dumbass for insisting on the virginity thing. She was a dumbass for wanting to get married to a guy who insisted on that. The outraged dumbasses who raised hell about this were dumbasses. And the court which finally cancelled the cancellation was full of dumbasses.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.

by nicta (nico＠altiva․fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think they'll be prevented from getting a divorce, but not for that reason.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:51:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But the husband's lawyers said the case had nothing to do with religion.

If you've been to Syria or a place full of Syrian exiles you can attest that most of their idiot ideas do not have much to do with religion as such, but with culture and tradition.

(Christian Syrians, and there are a lot of'em, have just as retarded ideas on things like women rights as muslim Syrians).

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed with the qualification, some.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Indeed. Malise Ruthven talks a lot about how Islam proved very amenable to accommodating all kinds of local cultural mores.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:28:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Watching the Republicans eat each other has been a truly enjoyable thing. More please.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:22:03 AM EST

Hot Dang, and i thought the Huckster wanted another run at being preznit. Not after that book he won't. A real "lose friends and alienate people" gold star.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:35:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As much as the republican party has imploded over the past [pick an interval], a republican candidate who runs against his own party makes a certain amount of weird sense.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:38:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Possibly, but such a candidate also runs the risk of violating St Ronnie's 11th Commandment ("Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican"). Republicans are generally good little soldiers. "Get behind the Fuhrer and march!" That kind of thing. They're not likely to appreciate Governor Deliverance taking shots at the others, but if he could sell it as "They've all sold you out," he might just take off.

Certainly Newters and Bible Spice are both disasters waiting to happen in 2012. I think Newters will come to the realization that he's basically McCain without the occasional bouts of sanity and with even more moral failings to trip over (calling your wife the c-word is nothing in comparison to dropping the divorce papers on your cancer-stricken wife's bed in the hospital with your mistress on your arm).

Caribou Barbie is going to run, and she'll almost certainly be facing off against Multiple-Choice Mittens. It's going to be comedy gold.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh I hope we can more or less write off the repugs for 2012, tho I still worry that Obama's win was distressingly narrow considering McCain was so utterly unsuited to the presidency.

But any signs of who the phoenix might be who arises from the smouldering wreckage of "republican carscrash 2012" and leads them into 2016 ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:06:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Republicans - vote for us because we're against stuff."

I'm not even going to think about 2012. I think any Dem who's thinking in terms of a permanent Democratic majority is deluding themselves, but it's going to be at least a couple of unusually interesting years before the dust settles and we can see how well Obama is doing, and how organised and coherent the opposition is going to be.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:12:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed. Even if Obama does remarkably well, I think talk of a permanent majority is silly. It's fundamentally a competitive political system. I think we're in for a good run over several cycles (won't win them all but the direction will be towards our thinking), but the pendulum will inevitably swing back down the road.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:26:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

With the Liebervote, don't count on the Dems avoiding a civil war of their own.

If Obama is looking even slightly vulnerable in 2012, don't be surprised if Clinton runs against him and destroys the party.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not worried about Hillary. The whole point of putting Clinton in the Cabinet is to get her out of the Senate so that she can't fuck anything up. (She wanted a special committee on health care, but Kennedy wouldn't give it to her.) There's no real point to her being there anymore, even if she wanted to run in 2016 (highly doubtful), since SecState would be the better gig. State wouldn't be my first choice for her, but she'd be awful at DoD, and all of the others are too low-profile, so I guess State is the one by process of elimination.

No civil war brewing over Lieberman. Only 12 of our people had our backs. Leahy and Sanders, obviously, and probably that guy from one of the Dakotas. But even Kerry and Durbin fucked us. Dodd fucked us. I'm sure Feingold fucked us, since he's all about his little group of campaign-finance buddies (even when they break the law like his bestest buddy St John). Then obviously Bayh, Warner, etc, will all fuck us.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:51:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama -> change -> it's (not) my party. Cry if you want to.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 03:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I must agree with the sentiment expressed by kavips that Drew originally cited:

The real contender (if Republicans actually want one) turns out to be Huckabee.. The longest lasting contender to McCain.... Who, just incidentally, has spent the last 8 months writing a book about..... the future of the Republican party..... (Can you say......."Perfect timing"?) All: "Perfect timing...."
TIME covers it, _you can get a brief synopsis here) but in Huckabee the Republicans have something every other candidate lacked... A human being who listens to people, thinks through his argument, and responds with a real answer... maybe not the one you wanted to hear... but you know its real and you know that is what he will do....

Huckabee is a whole human being with excellent "people" skills. He is a fundamentalist and he calls out the self anointed leaders of the religious right on grounds that will resonate with that base. The question that remains is whether he can move to the center sufficiently to broaden his appeal without alienating his base. He will be helped in this in that he is and will be perceived to be a genuine believer. That will give the base a comfort level with him that will allow him to better position himself for a general election than McCain ever enjoyed. He could be for real. Sort of a Republican version of Jimmy Carter.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Indeed. He was one of the few politicians of any party to come out with a nuanced and fair comment on Jeremiah Wright; I nearly fell off my chair when I read that.

Then I fell off my chair again when the reps didn't kick him out of the party for that.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Nov 19th, 2008 at 02:59:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's win will widen out to about 7 points in the end, I'd guess. That's not narrow at all looking at recent history, and 53% is the largest majority taken by a non-incumbent since Eisenhower. We'd all love a ten-point win, but that was never realistic, and a seven-point win is very respectable, especially when the candidate is a black guy with a name that probably strikes most Americans as vaguely Muslim.

2016? Who knows? Assuming for the sake of simplicity that Obama wins a second term, I'd guess Bobby Jindal would be an obvious contender. I don't like his chances, honestly, since he's both Indian and Catholic (brown + wrongcult != GOPnominee) in a party that is almost entirely white and Evangelical. Imagine Alan Keyes and Mitt Romney all rolled into one, and then add exorcisms to his resume.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:21:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Geez (none / 1)

Newt 2012 - less McCain, more insane.

by Nomad on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

St Ronnie's 11th Commandment ("Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican")

As in my not at all impartial dictum:

A conservative is one who sells the mistakes of yesterday as solutions for tomorrow.
What conservatives want to conserve is the illusion of a past golden age, so that all the problems that were hidden behind the façades can be ignored.
The only thing conservative politicians want to conserve is their power - secured and expanded by all means.
The only moral all conservatives follow: forgive the sins of fellow conservatives.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Teacherken gets it right (4.00 / 5)

It's teacherken's turn for Bill in Portland Maine's gentle waterboarding and he gave the following answer to an interesting question;-

What tips do you have for Kossacks who really really really really really want to make it on the Recommended Diaries list?
Change your name to Jerome a Paris or nyceve?

Ha, you bin busted

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:26:00 AM EST

As a matter of fact (4.00 / 3)

I have decided to float the name and sell shares in it. ETers will get early access...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:11:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As a matter of fact (4.00 / 2)

So it's going to be Jerome a Paris™ from now on?

I hope you're planning this as an LLP, and not as a conventional share issue.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:14:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As a matter of fact (none / 1)

what happens if someone buys you out, do you have to leave town ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:19:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Teacherken gets it right (none / 1)

It's teacherken's turn for Bill in Portland Maine's gentle waterboarding

I see I am very out of the loop on what's going on at Big Orange Satan [™Drew]. Could you tell me in a nutshell what's this about?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 12:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interviews (none / 1)

BiPM interviews members of Daily Kos that he finds interesting. Today he interviewed teacherken.

by Magnifico on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tuesday Open Thread (4.00 / 7)

My new bank cards saying Dr. [In Wales] turned up today :)

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:22:11 AM EST

I wonder why France, with its craze for competitive exams segmenting society, never got the idea of this sort of institutionalization of titles...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:28:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't know. Is it not really done elsewhere? I'm making of point of it because I actually get treated more respectfully when people realise. I really don't like being called 'Miss.'

The downside is that I could look like some pathetic little girl trying to be all big and clever and arrogant!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:39:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tuesday Open Thread (4.00 / 5)

In Germany they do it to death. You actually have people styling themselves Prof. Dr. Dr.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:44:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There, "Dipl.-Ing." (for an engineer with diploma) is also in frequent use.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 01:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah yes, good old X, or Prof. Prof. Dr. Dr. Dipl.-Ing. X as he liked to be known, informally, to his close friends...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:11:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

By the way. In Hungarian, a "Dipl.-Ing." acronym-title is not in use, but the full form is put in CVs, as well as identifications in articles or on cards. But (AFAIK) there is no exact English equivalent, thus in English versions of all aforementioned documents, one can find a wild variety of more or less unlucky translation attempts...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:17:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You forgot the Dr. h.c. awarded by a grateful academia.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Given that you start with minus two respect points with the sort of people to whom knowing that you're a Dr will make a difference, I say milk it to death.

Apparently very important in the Spanish speaking world as well.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:46:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yup, you got it!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:57:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tuesday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

So far as I know, in the US one's (preferred) title of address is a form field on certain business applications for mailing purposes. State agents do not, as a rule, convey title of address to commercial (legal) documents and contracts such as personal IDs, credit cards, land titles, or licenses. One's "legal name," first and family, are given unembellished by credentials.

A personal point of reference: DrMarketTrustee, a physician, declined MD (medical doctor) designation on his vehicle license plate once he'd determined that this "privilege" (to park anywhere) increased his personal risk of vandalism and theft. Neither my brother (JD) nor my father (LLB) prefer "Doctor" or demand that anyone address them thus, although both have been required to maintain licenses --by continuous certification and ethical sanctions, "good faith," shall we say-- for the lifetimes of their professional careers.

One cannot understate the "value" differential between metaphorical and mortal death, denoted by license and connoted by a body of laws and their enforcement. The expression of that differential is ruled by proximity to murder. PhDs are the least "accountable" doctors, yes, even within the trade of mental health services, psychology/psychiatry.

Thank god, if no one else, that someone in government still, somehow, discriminates licenses.

The instrumentality of "license" is an interesting topic, especially when comparing privileges of "freedom" to practice (or to trade) and procedures of "certification" in subject matter expertise by territory ... such as the UK, France, Germany, and USA. The topic of subject matter expertise itself is subject to continuous objective verification of practical application, although as a rule (ideologically speaking) academics (persons not usually subject to tort litigation) have argued that time (t: roughly, a 10 year arbitrary constraint and cummulative period of education) approximating a quantity of random responses apposing Q/t short-term recall to worldly events is a sufficient metric of applicable expertise (cf. Herbert Simon, just one "laureate" example).

Now let us ponder: Article 1, §9 of the US Constitution however expressly forbids the federal government and the states from conferring "titles of nobility", where here I will note that the word "nobility" is atavistic in extremis and bears no credential today save divine "rights" arrogated by some monarch; its meanings are more poetical with respect to apparent, that is to say accepted or justified belief of, expertise:

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

That is a good thing. That is why I refer to the lowest common denomitator in title, Mr or Ms or "pole-smoker."

Everyone makes mistakes. Reliability is a fallacy --OK, approximation-- of certainty. Certainty, as most apprehend and live it, is a function of human relations, who you know. One's hereditary seat in a chamber of Parliament, for example, or manipulation of political "opportunities" through trade alliances.

While I am pleased for you that you completed your certification in your chosen academic subject matter, I cannot help but caution you. Title of address is no certification of expertise. Expertise is guarantee of practical good. That is the moral of one's prescription for either remedy of bad acts or creation of good acts. Peer-reviewed acceptance, truth, of intellectual exercise is void, though entertaining. Unlike Mr Obama or Mr Sarkozy yet somewhat like Mr McConnell (ha!), every academic and pundit must administrate their claim to expertise.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 02:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh, GEEEEZE (none / 0)

Expertise is NO guarantee of practical good.

Brief explanation: Certification is abstract concept attainement, hence peer-review rules (typically statistical proof). Practical certification, LICENSE, is real conflict, typically torts litigation.

One may "ace" a test but fail reality Happens all too often.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 04:10:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm the opposite. Being called by my title makes me cringe, and I never write it down on forms. In fact, I'm not impressed by other people's titles at all, and feel it is none of their business to know this about me upfront.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 07:32:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Because (none / 1)

Dr is not a big title in France. As you know, it's only my secondary degree over here. And people do put their school and year of entry quite often on cards and in obituaries...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:46:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because (none / 0)

X. hasn't replaced Monsieur, either. And cards and obituaries are a bit different to, say, credit cards...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:52:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because (4.00 / 2)

I've never displayed my letters - and come to think of it, I don't know where the evidence for any of my qualifications is, because I have never had occasion to present it.

But the university I got my M.A, from is unique and small enough that there is a frisson of freemasonic recognition if I meet any fellow graduates. I suppose that is true of most hard-to-get-into universities.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 03:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ooh, you!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 18th, 2008 at 11:30:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]