French Socialist Party leadership vote (last)night

by Jerome a Paris
Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 03:41:49 PM EST

Update [2008-11-22 8:42:25 by afew]: Martine Aubry was declared winner with a 42-vote lead. Ségolène Royal says there was cheating and is calling for a revote. The outgoing First Secretary, François Hollande, has convened the National Council of the party for Tuesday evening to reach a decision. But the National Council, elected by PR, is made up of representatives of the "factions" in the same proportions as were seen in these elections: 30% Royal, 25% Delanoë, 25% Aubry, 20% Hamon...

::::::::::

After an inconclusive party congress last week, when none of the four main "motions" (plan proposals) by the various factions of the party) could take a lead amongst the party's elected officials, the Socialist Party is holding the election of its leader by all party members tonight. A first round yesterday between Ségolène Royal (42%), Martine Aubry (33%) and Benoit Hamon (22%) has brought us to a run off between the first two, with Hamon calling his supporters to vote for Aubry.

While a lot of the media coverage has been about the dreadful infighting between individuals to gain preeminence, and the supposed inability of the party to get heard, a more positive take has been taken by Le Monde, in a recent editorial, which notes that the socialist party is offered a real choice (between Royal, who wants to "presidentialise" the party, wants to open it up to alliances with the center and to bring in younger generations, and Aubry, a more traditional, social, leftist version of the party) and offers a lesson in democracy by conducting that debate publicly.

Also, as flagged by Fran in the Salon, it is not completely banal yet to se two women fighting is off for the leadership of a major party in on of the big European countries. After Royal's run in last year's presidency, it is another step forward towards a more diverse political class.

It is rather foolish to try to make any predictions now (we'll update as results are known), but the big unknown is not so much who the winner is as whether the loser will accept the authority of the winner, and whether the party "elephants" (the leaders of the various factions) will stop their deadly fighting to unite behind the new leader. This is unlikely to be clear tonight, but who knows?


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Her looks at a big rally surprised many but is clearly part of her appeal to many.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 03:50:28 PM EST
She is much more attractive with the non-straightened hair.  Is this her regular look now?  Obviously Aubry has no chance in a beauty contest.
by paving on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:29:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 03:51:46 PM EST
BBC NEWS | Europe | New leader for French Socialists

A vote to choose the leader of the French Socialist opposition has been won by Martine Aubry, the party says.

A former minister and current mayor of Lille, Ms Aubry is best known as the architect of 35-hour work week.

Official results say she defeated ex-presidential candidate Segolene Royal by 42 votes, a razor-thin margin. Ms Royal is contesting the result.

The party has been divided over whether to move toward the political centre or hold to traditional leftist beliefs.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 01:01:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This appears at first glance to be the worst possible result as a razor thin margin makes legitimacy more difficult.

The question is can Royal take the hint?  Even if this was "shenanigans" she must get in line for the party.  If she cannot do that it is personal and the PS is not a personal vehicle for her but allegedly a major political party.

Sarkozy must be giggling.

by paving on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:33:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is over-worrying... we were told that the ongoing primary between Clinton and Obama was "damaging" as McCain was selected and already building momentum. Turned out not to matter so much.

There's plenty of time before the next election. Better to do the recounts, investigate any shenanigans and lay the doubts to rest. Then when Royal loses anyway she (and her supporters) will have less grounds to complain... and eventually will get behind the other candidate...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 05:42:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm inclined to agree, although there really wasn't much to fight over with Obama and Hillary.  There were questions of the superdelegates following the delegate allocation and finding some way of dealing with Florida and Michigan, but Obama had a pretty commanding lead with the regular delegates and gradually closed the gap throughout the race with superdelegates, so it wasn't really in dispute from a perspective of simply dealing in numbers.

This, in contrast, is rightly described as a razor-thin margin.  At 42 votes, there can be a dispute.  Close enough for accusations of fraud to resonate with the two bases.  It's sort of like comparing Florida 2000 with Ohio 2004: I've little doubt there was fraud in Ohio, but I still think that, if we could've waved a magic wand and made the fraud go away, Bush would've won Ohio.  Florida, on the other hand, was pretty clearly won via fraud, in my opinion.

The fortunate thing is that they have, I think, quite a bit of time before the next election, so the opportunity to heal whatever wounds are left is at least there.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is, the voting in the PS is way, way dirtier than anything in Florida or Ohio ; in each département, voting is more or less controlled by the local head of party ; there are reports of mass semi-fictitious adhesions just before elections, more or less paid for by the local head to bring more votes to his favored candidate.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 10:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So what's your take on the likely outcome?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 03:55:58 PM EST
I would have preferred Bertrand Delanoé (the gay and bobo mayor of Paris) as a first choice, and would have found the choice of Benoit Hamon more interesting.

Delanoé was the big loser of the congress last week, with his "motion" unable to distance the others, and even beaten by Royal, and he threaw in his support behind Aubry.

Aubry worries me because of the support of the old-school elephants: Fabius (PM in 84-86), Jospin (PM in 97-02) and I'm not sure she'll put an end to the infighting.

Royal is likely to try impose her authority on the party, but many of the elephants absolutely hate her, and the confrontatino is unpredictable. Her personal, charismatic style is also not my favorite.

I don't really mind either, and only hope that they can impose order in the party. Maybe Royal is slightly better in that respect.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:07:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Clarify for me: They're running for party leader.  Is that a spot similar to Howard Dean's position at the DNC, or is this the person likely to lead the party into the next presidential election, or what?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:51:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not necessarily the same person that will run for president, but it should be if the socialists are to have any chance - and it is clearly Royal's intention.

The first secretary is the most visible spokesperson of the party, and has lots of internal procedural powers (including on designation of candidates during various elections)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Traditionally, the PS leader had been the one running for the presidential election since the 1960's.

Last year, this "tradition" was broken: Francois Hollande didn't seek the role; several candidates ran in a PS primary and Segolène Royal was selected to run opposing Nicolas Sarkozy.

Conventional wisdom is that Royal wants to lead the party to support another run against Sarkozy in 2012.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:12:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What are Sarko's approval ratings looking like these days, by the way?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Trending up for the past couple of months: 44% approval rating vs. 43% last month.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Trending up, but that still seems a little weak looking at a second-round vote, and it's only a point different from last month, so that doesn't really tell us anything.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He went in freefall last winter when he had his whirlwind romance with Bruni, and a bump this summer with his whirlwind of diplomatic activity (with the war in Georgia, notably).

This is an average of 9 polls, from here

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:59:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it's worth noting that Sarkozy has basically no opposition right now.  If/when the PS gets behind one person we will see just how popular Sarkozy really is.
by paving on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That very thing just happened here. The government has been very unpopular since it was elected and the opposition has hade great numbers, and kept very quiet.

As soon as they started talking politics they lost huge numbers and the popularity of the government surged.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Nov 24th, 2008 at 02:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To add to the explanations:

A european party tends to be one organisation - divided into different suborganisations, but still one organisation. The party leader is the president of the organisation.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:31:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I had to call it, I'd say Royal has the momentum. But it's going to be close, and the party may well remain divided afterwards. That fact seems more important than the personality of the candidates or their "line". Though I'm pissed off with Aubry for not defending her 35-hour week reform when the right dragged it through the mud (where it now lies), and with Royal for insisting on opening up to a "centre" that is irrelevant.

The worst of it all, probably, is that I don't see the PS coming up with anything new. Oh no, not as in "New" Labour, but a fresh approach that shows some understanding of what's happening in the world right now.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What the PS says on most topics is rather sensible - as I'm almost surprised to note each time I read the actual texts. But the coverage of what the PS says is dreadful, as it is mostly focused on the infighting, and on what the texts mean with respect to that infighting rather than on what they actually convey (ie, "the text is more lefty than expected, which is the sign of an alliance between x and y against z")

Thus my note of hope that this election will put an end to this by designating a boss.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Royal's right to try to push the idea of reaching out to young people now more than ever.  I don't know the demographics of France well enough to go into too much detail there, but I seem to recall Royal enjoying a fair bit of success with reaching out to young people in the race against Sarko.  You have to get the kids involved, or you're simply going to set yourself up to fail over the long haul.

Aubry's got it right from a wonk's standpoint, and you're right about it being gutless and pointless to run from the 35-hour workweek.  But Royal is simply wrong strategically: Playing to the center on policy simply isn't going to accomplish anything.  Good leaders sell their ideas to the center without sacrificing principles.  Sell it by addressing them with a pragmatic tone and pragmatic language, not with destructive changes in policy that will simply erode the base and embolden the other side.  I think the need, as far as the center goes, is to speak in plain terms that make them think, "Huh, yeah, okay, that makes some sense."

Royal's buying into the Clinton-Blair theory of campaigns, which is understandable when the pendulum is swinging to the other party, but it's not right now.  The pendulum is in the beginning stages of swinging leftward.  If ever there were a point in time in the Postwar Era when parties of the left should be able to sell their ideas, it's now.  The left's policies are about economic security and collective advancement, and people are scared by decades of the opposite crashing down on their heads.  It's perhaps less of an issue in France, where those priorities for our side have been stronger in the public's beliefs than they have been in America or Britain, but the general trend should still be there.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know the demographics of France well enough to go into too much detail there....

...adding: More importantly, I don't know the dynamics -- political and otherwise -- either, but I'd suspect they're similar to other countries.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Last year, Royal has been quite good at mobilizing the younger part of the electorate.

What carried the election to Sarko was basically the over-65 demographics.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:21:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What carried the election to Sarko was basically the over-65 demographics.

Interesting.  Can it be drilled down to a couple of basic reasons?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Arabs will rape your daughter and steal your son's job?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
this, plus the "this woman is incompetent" theme that has been drilled down by the media all along the campaign (emphasis: woman, incompetent).

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:43:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, that I definitely remember.  Sarko struck me as a misogynistic and condescending little shit in their debate.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Many in the PS were of the same opinion, as I remember. Very easy to position oneself as a victim of mysoginy to counter any kind of criticism, more or less of substance.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely: the backstabbing began at the PS.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 07:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Many in the PS were of the same opinion"

True, but by any measure she was not nearly as incompetent as Sarko (whose results as minister were invariably appalling, and who was pushing for policies right out of the George W Bush book, probably the modern yardstick of incompetence). Yet somehow the media was never pointing out things like "this man is a clown". Strange.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point was not Sarko, but that it was not only the right, but also half the left (if not more) who thought Royal incompentent, Eva Péron-like populist, and lacking statemanship - if I remember well, even few remarkable PS women thought that.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)
by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bernard pointed out that the meme was spread by the media. The meme that Sarkozy was among the one million least competent people in France for the role of president, was never mentioned. Despite at least half the right thinking so as well.

So it is quite relevant. The media were incredibly biased in that respect, to the point of presenting Sarko's ministry tenures (which werein fact major failures) as strong points, as proof of competence. Again, despite having most of his own camp feeling he was rubbish.

It's well known that today, should the votes be anonymous, Sarko would not even have a majority within the UMP parliementary group.

Let alone in the Assemblée itself...

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 03:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I was commenting Royal and the way she was treated, not Sarkozy. I don't see what Sarkozy, his "competence", his rubish-ness, his majority, or the Parliament have to do in all this - besides the fact that you seem to have a very clear and solid opinion on him - which is perfectly your right :)

You're a perfect illustration for my ideology diary, if you don't mind: not one sentence without heavy political bias. You seem to breathe contestation - of the media, of elections, of the elected parliament.

In such cases I tend to say: well get ready to spend 9 more years in this dire mood.

But it would be a provocation.
What do I care that you're such a leftwing supporter and Royal fan. I don't even care if Sarko gets re-elected (or indeed will be a candidate 4 years from now).

But forget Sarko. Just a question: could you even conceive Mme. Royal might not be that good, do you allow for even a tiny bit of doubt?
Or is it more like, we're all little soldiers ready to die for the Chief?


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 01:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Given that Cyrille was openly a Modem supporter and not a Royal supporter, your comments are, shall we say, a case of projection?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 04:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So Le Pen, for all practical purposes.  How'd she respond?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:55:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The main TV channel is owned by a personal buddy of Sarkozy, and has been happy to drum in Sarkozy's scaremongering-but-don't-worry-I'm-tough message, the other TV channels are state-owned, and government-intimidated, and the major media groups are owned by other friends of Sarkozy.

Any other questions?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, sure, and that makes it harder, but find me a party on The LeftTM that doesn't have to compete with a news media that clearly sits right-of-center in western countries.  That's why the Intertubez are so important.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 10:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and that's why developing them here in Europe as well is so crucial.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:05:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Come to Sweden my friend. Our media is like a caricature of the so called "liberal media" in the US. They're just like Fox News except leftists and because of their incestous segregation incredibly detached from the majority view of pretty much everything.

Like Fox News, except they actually believe they are "fair and balanced".

So take a guess, do you think the Swedish left or right is most interested in the Intertubes? Yeah, that's right.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Nov 24th, 2008 at 02:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So just like in Italy... Or Sweden... or... Hell, does anyone have a good hold on how we should make media work?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Nov 24th, 2008 at 02:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Followed the campaign quite closely yet never saw anything inciting to xenophobia or racial hatred, could you be more specific, perhaps ?

(unless Sarko hating is such fundamental value over here that this needs no more proof whatsoever)

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:28:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gaudin (UMP mayor of Marseilles)


« Beaucoup d'électeurs FN ont constaté que Nicolas Sarkozy disait les mêmes choses que Le Pen, mais que lui avait une chance de les mettre un jour en application. Ils ont donc voté utile. Parce qu'ils ont cessé de croire à l'accession de Le Pen au pouvoir » ( cité dans Le Canard enchaîné du 25 Avril 2007).

See this about his rally in Toulon in February 2007:


Lors de son meeting de Toulon, mercredi 7 février 2007, Nicolas Sarkozy a choisi des mots et des thèmes adaptés à une partie de la population locale. Il a continué à s'adresser aux électeurs du FN [1], distillant des messages pleins d'ambiguïté sur les immigrés qui « ne sont pas les bienvenus sur le territoire de la République » s'ils n'en respectent pas toutes les règles, avant de marquer son opposition à l'entrée de la Turquie dans l'Union Européenne.

A quatorze reprises, il a lancé des anathèmes en commençant ses phrases par ce mot d'ordre : « Ça ne peut plus durer ! » désignant à la vindicte populaire « petit voyou et patron voyou », « multirécidivistes », « l'assisté qui gagne plus que le travailleur » [2].

And did you not follow how much the news were focused on security, law and order, kicking the immigrants out and putting the "lazy" back to work? But presumably it is 'ideological' to point out that there are hard-right favorites?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Compared to Le Pen, Sarko knew how to hang on to an argumented line. He spoke about immigrants in the context of law trespassing, if I can put it so. Or in a society based on the rule of law, who can contest that laws must be observed. Then of course there are ways and ways to say that, which can absolutely not be summed up like you did, "arabs that rape our daughters". That's an appalling exaggeration. It's absolutely shocking that someone can say that - unless speaking from Sarko hatred. This is just like those people in the US convinced that Obama is an arab, a muslim, and a terrorist.

Secondly, what you don't realize is how many people are indignated against lack of fairness in dealing with unemployment ("unemployed are always right", says the PC Bible, because they are victims, and victims always are), in dealing with immigrants (an immigrant is necessarily a sort of asilum seeker, he doesn't need to obey the law, respect the host country or the locals - I speak about respect, not submission, not abandoning one's identity).
And so on. This gets a wide range of people indignated and they vote right. The left should be careful about picking its favourite categories and exclude others, or else they will continue to lose nation wide elections.

As to your quotation from Canard Enchaine, there was a documentary on France2 about their hard left leaning, or the absence of it. The conclusion was that yes.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 07:02:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you know that political expression? Look it up.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:14:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
calling Le Canard Enchainé "extreme left" does not make the facts they report false - or do you claim that they are factually incorrect? Lots of people have claimed that, gone to court, and lost.

I only reported a uote by Gaudin. Criticizing the messenger is not an adequate argument.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:17:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
making any criticism of Sarkozy "Sarko hatred" is rather dismissive and narrow-minded, especially wen I provide fat to back my arguments and you don't.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And even if it were so, it would be acquired hatred.

Yes, you could say I hate him. Because he promotes the fear and hatred of the others, because he made a mockery of the rule of law, because his policies are abominably clientelist (to the point where I think we have to call it corruption) and so on. Certainly not because I had anything against him ex ante.

Sometimes, hatred is the sensible reaction.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:26:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was ready to discuss that, but when you start by saying he promotes fear and hatred, you're already biased.

This is a symptom of the mind-boggling polarisation of the political life in France.

If Sarkozy calmed things down on his side, the left remains in the same extremist stance.
If you claim that someone won by saying "arabs will rape your daughter", this claim is so extremist that blocks all possible dialogue.
This attitude can be seen all over the French Left today. Their whole problem is how to gather their forces to FIGHT SARKOZY and to FIGHT THE RIGHT. It's almost like a crusade.

What you don't realize is that people are getting fed up with constant "extremisation", they prefer politicians who deal with issues and speak about France, not about adversaries, not vilifying them.
So I repeat: more lost elections are about to come, as long as you guys continue to see the world in Black (the others) and White (Us) and focus on Battles against the Demon.

Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 02:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so you're Black. What are you doing on our White blog, then? Trolling?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 04:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm starting to wonder the same thing.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is this blog only for people to spill out their buckets about the evil right? :)

Speaking for more reason and against blind faith could actually appear a bit like trolling, I suppose. What can I say, then... sorry to bother you in your comfort zone, I guess.


Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! (Martin Luther King)

by ValentinD (walentijn arobase free spot frança) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:59:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I give arguments, you give invective. Feel free to continue, I will ignore you if you don't post substantive comments.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 06:08:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As to selling one's ideas to the center, well, Sarkozy has been quite good at this little game, whereas Royal, as you pointed out, seems to be obsessed by triangulation à la Clinton.

As for sensing the pendulum swinging early: again, agility points will go to Sarkozy on this one as well.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:19:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Royal was doing okay up until the point where she needed to present specific policy proposals.  In that entire campaign she never made it clear what she would do.  This is the "closing" that was missing.  

I think there was a strong chance to beat Sarkozy in the last election and barring a miracle he will be vulnerable in the next election as well.  The factors that led to the PS loss had to do with a complete lack of party unity including out and out mutiny against Royal.  She seemed to not have the party infrastructure at her back.  

The biggest doubt I have is in the "authoritarian" streak and it leaves me wondering if she doesn't listen to other people, eg those who say things like "you're going to need some actual proposals that people can latch onto."

The family drama aspect of it was also the 800lb gorilla nobody wants to bring up.  With some distance from that I think Royal can mount a genuine challenge.  Her first duty will be to integrate the Hamon voters, many of whom will need to vote for her today if she is to secure the position (he has endorsed Aubry).  This matter is entirely predicated on her policy fuzziness.  Hamon represents a left-wing that is not interested in compromising on certain specific principals.  Royal absolutely failed to assure this group in the last election.  

In the United States Segolene Royal would have no opportunity to run in this next election.  Fortunately in France the "familiar faces" tend to do better.  Nobody just shows up and wins.  Sarkozy was all over the TV for four or five years before his election.  Mitterand, Chirac, etc, were well-known national figures for decades before winning the Presidency.  In this way the French take their leadership seriously and elect people they know.  They know all politicians are flawed and want to know what those flaws are before handing over power.  Royal has shown some of those flaws since her run in the last election and with the keys to the PS for the next few years she can work out the policy side in the public eye.  If she executes well I see no reason to believe she can't win decisively against a tired act known as the Sarkozy re-election bid.

by paving on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mitterrand lost in 1965 (but forced de Gaullt to a second round) and in 1974 (a very narrow 50.5-49.5 loss to Giscard) before winning in 81. Chirac lost in 81 (first round loss, bu he took down Giscard) and in 88 (bad loss to Mitterrand) before winning in 95 against Jopin. Jospin lost a second time in 2002 (in the infamous first round to Le Pen).

Sarkozy's was his first run at the presidency, but he's been omnipresent since 1993 (as Balladur's minister of budget and spokesperson), and lead the RPR list in the 1999 European elections to an ignominious defeat (with 12% of the vote, he was behind sovereignist/hard right de Villiers/Pasqua list) - so yes, familiarity, and a sense that the guy desperately wants the job and won't give up until s/he gets it...

As to Royal, the infighting in the PS did handicap he campaign massively - just like division in 2002 brought Jospin's loss as too many candidates vied for votes on the left.

The core goal of the PS should be to have an uncontested leader. I think Royal can play that role better than Aubry, despite her being clearly hated more inside the party.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:24:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's easy for an outsider like me to say, but for the Presidential election at least, the left needs to start putting compromise at the head of the agenda.

You need a majority in the second round and as horrible as some of the triangulating may be - surely another Sarko victory is worse?

Of course, Royal had some deficiencies as a candidate last time around, but disunity was a big part of the failure. Job 1 has to be to get some kind of unity, whoever wins the role.

Also I think the primary last time was too close to the election - not enough time to embed a policy stance in a hostile media environment. This time should be better just because of that.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My impression has been that the "elephants" don't like her for more personal, stylistic reasons.  It has nothing to do with policy.  The left has a policy dispute but that is classic coalition/power struggle stuff rather than true dysfunction.  
by paving on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, they probably aren't too comfortable with having a show-business star (à la Sarkozy, in fact) as party leader, that's for sure.
But in terms of policy, while you wouldn't pinpoint one that is directly in contradiction with their beliefs, it's also because Royal's were so vague and shallow in the last election. Lots of slogans, but when she was asked to list the five main things she would do (note: do) were she to be elected, the first one she listed was, and I quote: "win-win".
That's a mantra, a goal or principle if you want, it's not something you do. Same thing was merely inserting the word "fair" in every sentence as policy definition.

Then, just after the election, stating that the program she had been defending was an impossible absurdity. That sure must have played well with the party -and particularly with Aubry.

I'm sure most of the infighting is from personal ambition, but I can understand why the other leaders would rather accept any other of their rivals. She is just a losing proposition. If she runs again, she will lose except in the most extraordinary circumstances (such as all other candidates so weak that any PS militant picked randomly would win -mind you a prolonged crisis could bring just that).


"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:06:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Metatone:
You need a majority in the second round and as horrible as some of the triangulating may be - surely another Sarko victory is worse?

As long as the amount to win is less then those not voting you have an alternative to triangulating and that is create a platform that gets the non-voters voting for you. Yes, it is harder, and you need people on the ground talking to people because media is not going to sell your message for you. But then you can also win on a platform that means more then just being less bad then the other candidate.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:27:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As to Royal, the infighting in the PS did handicap he campaign massively - just like division in 2002 brought Jospin's loss as too many candidates vied for votes on the left.

The core goal of the PS should be to have an uncontested leader. I think Royal can play that role better than Aubry, despite her being clearly hated more inside the party.

Not having an uncontested leader is suicide.  Whether Royal or Aubry emerges as the leader here, it needs to be clear that person is in charge, or they're going to be too undisciplined, regardless of how much Sarko screws up.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 09:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If ever there were a point in time in the Postwar Era when parties of the left should be able to sell their ideas, it's now.

Agreed. I would add that if the socialist party is unable to sell their ideas now, it will never be able to do so, not because of the ideas so much as the PS's inept and chaotic nature.

"Holy Shit! It worked!

Events and the almost unexpected success of a lot of old ideas have refilled the socialist ammo belt. Now--can they find their rusting guns?

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 07:01:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A problem is that there are rival sellers and the Left vote may be split. According to this:


But what if another party of the left were to replace the Socialists, or even just give them some competition? Until recently, this would have seemed far-fetched. Not any more.

Meet Olivier Besancenot, the 34-year-old mailman and spokesman for the small Trotskyite Revolutionary Communist League (LCR) who has just emerged as the founder and leader of the New Anticapitalist party (le Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste, NPA).

According to a recent OpinionWay/Le Figaro/LCI poll, 17 percent of the French are considering supporting him. Bertrand Delanoë gets only 13 percent, Ségolène Royal 9 percent. Among Socialist and other left-wing voters, Besancenot's rise is even more dramatic: Twenty-six percent already see him as the "best opposition leader," whereas Delanoë gets 19 percent, Socialist chairman François Hollande 10 percent, and Royal 9 percent. Moreover, 65 percent of all respondents say they have a "very positive" opinion of him.

September 27 2008

http://michelgurfinkiel.com/articles/183-France-Beware-of-the-Red-Mailman.html



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 10:04:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Ted. Interesting.


The chief reason for Besancenot's popularity is that, like Barack Obama (to quote Michelle Obama), "he's cute." With his boyish face, broad smile, and big eyes, Besancenot appeals to his generational peers, women, and even older people, who tend to see him as their virtual son. This has not escaped the talk show hosts, who are eager to have him on the air as often as possible, as if he were a rock star or supermodel. (Incidentally, the same holds true on the right: Rama Yade, a lovely young woman of Senegalese descent, is one of the most popular and media-friendly ministers in the Sarkozy government.)

Once again, the meme of homo politicus- the voter- as idiot.
Le Figaro is often caught up in this vision--they see themselves as speaking to the governing class, perhaps.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 03:08:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That article tries to bend over backwards to discredit the new left but the facts presented fail to support those conclusions.  After reading that I'm even more interested and excited by the new left movement's potential.
by paving on Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 at 02:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When are results expected?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:57:14 PM EST


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 04:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
say 53% for Royal (claims the Royal camp)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, is this a nationwide vote among party members rather than a large meeting of the party elders at HQ?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
all members, roughly 200,000, can vote.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 05:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Aubry side is now claiming it won 50.5% of votes overall.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 07:13:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow.. close run thing.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 07:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The vote total is within a few hundred.  
by paving on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 07:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
will the reactions be as passionate as these young womens'?



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 10:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If Royal wins and can't assimilate the Hamon voters into her future PS how likely is the NACP (Besancenot, et al) to peel these people off over the next four years?

I recall Royal making gestures toward Bayrou in the second round, too late mind you, but seemingly sincerely based on events since then.  Is she likely to move the PS further to the center?

by paving on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:22:25 PM EST
Well, after spending much more time and energy attacking Bayrou than Sarkozy before the first round, and stating that PS could never, ever, be part of a government coalition with Bayrou as president, it didn't seem all that sincere.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:09:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's good to see this on the front page, it would have been nice to see some of this in the OT, where I tried to raise the issue. The OT is not just light chat, it has been full of detailed discussion of US politics for months. Maybe a wider range of people than those who would choose to enter this special topic area might have gained more understanding of French politics and the French in general - something which I think Jerome would welcome given recent fulminations :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:31:33 PM EST
I haven't had much time lately. Did you write a diary on this, that we might have frontpaged?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:33:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No need to be sorry; I'm not blaming you Jerome, you do more than your share. I'm not qualified to do a diary about it. But my point was about trying to get a wider range of issues discussed in the OT, not diaries or even the Front page - which involves an option to look at the discussion.

We do tend to reflect American cultural dominance - for understandable reasons - its politics gets massive coverage - in the OT. Apart from the relative neglect of France and Europe, when did you ever see Latin America discussed in the OT - it's quite a big area :-) I did try dragging it in too. If you do look for stories about it, guess what, they mostly have a US link. But then I don't speak Spanish  :-)  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 07:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tried but was sidetracked by beaujolais nouveau banter from the british isles crowd.
by paving on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 06:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Multi-task :-) I was the sole defender of poor old BN, but also managed to put up a few other topics for discussion - without much luck.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 at 07:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The reason the OT was full of US politics for ages was that US members were asked not to fill the diary list with US election diaries.

Normally, however, a discussion as long as the one in this thread should be in a dedicated diary or front-page story, where there's room for it to develop and that can be more easily found later for reference.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 01:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well it's not either-or is it? There were still lots of US diaries, and I'm not the first to regret the relative lack of European topics in the OT. I know the OT is often light-hearted, but it's also so often about the US. The point was quite general, and relates to the discussion of ideology in ValentinD's diary. US culture is very dominant; it tends to dominate even in a forum highly critical of its economic model. It's perhaps useful to remind ourselves about that sometimes and to try to make more conscious efforts to resist that domination and search out non US-related topics in Europe and the world - where people resisting that domination are trying to be heard:


"Cultural globalization, driven by communication technology and the worldwide marketing of Western cultural industries, was understood at first as a process of homogenization, as the global domination of American culture at the expense of traditional diversity. However, a contrasting trend soon became evident in the emergence of movements protesting against globalization and giving new momentum to the defense of local uniqueness, individuality, and identity. These movements used the same new technologies to pursue their own goals more efficiently and to appeal for support from world opinion.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Globalization?t=2.

The domination is also more specific, it's not just American, Americans suffer too; it's US mainstream media agenda - the horse-race dominates attention. When that's over it's: "Will he pick Hillary?" "What will Palin do now?" etc. Maybe we can break out of CNN's "Situation Room" :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 05:08:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm pointing out what was requested. It did reduce the number of US election diaries so we could see the European ones in between.

As for US domination of world discourse, when you've got a solution, write a diary about it ;)

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:02:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The drop in diaries post-Obama was a natural result of intense interest and even stress (are they really going to screw with the results again?) leading to a climax.

We'll find stuff to grumble about in due course ;-)

There was no overload of US election diaries for me, it was a paradigm-shifting global event.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was moaning (it's a Brit thing :-)) about the OT. One can easily choose which diaries to read - the OT is often dominated by US stuff and, and, echoing US media, by narrowly horse-race stuff or DC political speculation.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:43:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The OT is started late afternoon, EU time, and this is the time when US-based ETribbers drop by and we start a chat around the water cooler.

So that US oriented themes have dominated the OT doesn't surprise me terribly, especially over the past couple of months during the run-up to the presidential election.

By contrast, when the Salon was started early in the morning EU time, it was invariably dominated by EU and other non-US themes -- still is, BTW.

So that's my explanation == time zones; back in the spring of 2007, the OT was all about the French elections and French stuff (another occasion for Brit moaning:-))

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 11:09:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The OT is started late afternoon, EU time, and this is the time when US-based ETribbers drop by and we start a chat around the water cooler.

Most europeans have then finished work so you might expect them to dominate, if we're thinking about time zones.


So that US oriented themes have dominated the OT doesn't surprise me terribly, especially over the past couple of months during the run-up to the presidential election.

Believe it or not it's not the only significant thing happening in the world, and, as I said, the chat often follows the US media horse-race focus - there's more to politics. Also the outcome isn't likely to fundamentally change things - cf. Nader article.


By contrast, when the Salon was started early in the morning EU time, it was invariably dominated by EU and other non-US themes -- still is, BTW.

The Salon has a healthier balance because it has sections specifically for: "Europe", "world" - but often it doesn't get a lot of comment.


So that's my explanation == time zones; back in the spring of 2007, the OT was all about the French elections and French stuff (another occasion for Brit moaning:-))

IF it really was all about French elections and French stuff it would have been a rather unusual change - and living in France I wouldn't have such a problem :-)

As I said it is related to the discussion of ideology in ValentinD's diary; the fact that you see US cultural domination (widely acknowledged) as just due to phenomena like time-zones - "it's natural" - is another example of the obfuscating nature of ideology.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 01:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I agree, the time zone difference may not explain everything.

As for the US cultural domination, I'll just say: guilty as charged. I've been living in the USA for a number of years and I've been following US politics since then. So I may have a skewed view of what the right balance "should" be on ET.

For what it's worth, I too would like to see more coverage on European issues and countries -- outside France, that is.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 03:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some discussion of French politics in the OT tonight - progress :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This and the 300+ comments diary on ideology from ValentinD.
News of ET's death might be a tad exaggerated after all :)

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 05:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"it was a paradigm-shifting global event."

This from a Brit in Finland - who might be expected to have a bit of perspective on things of global significance :-) Not even all Americans see it that way:


   Changing With Retreads: The Third Clinton Administration

   By RALPH NADER

November 21, 2008 "Counterpunch" -- While the liberal intelligentsia was swooning over Barack Obama during his presidential campaign, I counseled "prepare to be disappointed." His record as a Illinois state and U.S. Senator, together with the many progressive and long overdue courses of action he opposed during his campaign, rendered such a prediction unfortunate but obvious.

Now this same intelligentsia is beginning to howl over Obama's transition team and early choices to run his Administration. Having defeated Senator Hillary Clinton in the Democratic Primaries, he now is busily installing Bill Clinton's old guard. Thirty one out of forty seven people that he has named so far for transition or appointments have ties to the Clinton Administration, according to Politico. One Clintonite is quoted in the Washington Post as saying - "This isn't lightly flavored with Clintons. This is all Clintons, all the time."

Obama's "foreign policy team is now dominated by the Hawkish, old-guard Democrats of the 1990," writes Jeremy Scahill. Obama's transition team reviewing intelligence agencies and recommending appointments is headed by John Brennan and Jami Miscik, who worked under George Tenet when the CIA was involved in politicizing intelligence for, among other officials, Secretary of State Colin Powell's erroneous address before the United Nations calling for war against Iraq.

Mr. Brennan, as a government official, supported warrantless wiretapping and extraordinary rendition to torturing countries. National Public Radio reported that Obama's reversal when he voted for the revised FISA this year relied on John Brennan's advise.

For more detail on these two advisers and others recruited by Obama from the dark old days, see Democracy Now, November 17, 2008 and Jeremy Scahill, AlterNet, Nov. 20, 2008 "This is Change? 20 Hawks, Clintonites and Neocons to Watch for in Obama's White House."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21297.htm

THIS is a global paradigm shift?! Maybe you've been reading too much US media sourced election stuff :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 10:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suggested - for ET's OT - "It's perhaps useful to remind ourselves about that sometimes and to try to make more conscious efforts to resist that domination and search out non US-related topics in Europe and the world". That would help a bit in the wider world too and the groups referred to in the quotation are doing their bit to resist US domination.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 09:46:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Martine Aubry has been declared winner with a 42-vote lead.

Too close for comfort. Royal claims cheating. No sign of the PS stopping the infighting.

:-(

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 01:32:29 AM EST
...and no sign of the media stopping their "cat fight" coverage theme of the PS.
No good news indeed...

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:14:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only one person probably could stop the infighting now, given the atermath of round 3, and he's stuck in the US.

Maybe Sarko knew what he was doing.

Too bad the rank and file didn't go for the proper alternatives (Delanoe in first, Hamon in second) which might (especially Hamon) have given a new direction from this. Now, I think they are going to continue to get crappy press coverage whatever they do, and no miitant growth to speak of.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 02:35:01 AM EST
Sarkozy was for nothing in Strauss-Kahn's nomination. He just rushed to the rescue of success so he could get more airtime. As usual...

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 02:55:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know we are to be engaging in as much Sarko-bashing as possible here, but this simply isn't true. Nominations among EU member states for head of the IMF come precisely from EU member states. You can't just nominate yourself, you need to be nominated by a member state. And, while it's true DSK could have gotten nominated by another EU member state (Spain?) this isn't actually how it happen, as DSK's nomination was introduced by France, and at the time the job came up, Sarkozy was President, and Sarkozy did the nomination. He was quite actively pushing it at the time as well.

And he certainly got press time for it.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 04:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Strauss-Kan was going to be nominated by Junker (and probably others) anyway when Sarko rushed to pretend it had been his idea all along.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:06:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Strauss-Kahn
I guess the Chess Olympiads (happening right now in Germany) put the Kan, as in Sicilian Kan opening, into my mind...

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 06:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DSK will not stop the infighting. According to the (hard-left, lol) Canard Enchaîné, DSK's right-hand man Cambadélis has been hard at work trying to bring about gridlock.

So that no other candidate emerges and DSK can breeze back in in 2012 as the saviour of the left.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah yes, Francois Hollande, an impartial judge if I ever saw one!
by paving on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 at 08:36:14 PM EST


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