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Thursday Open Thread

by afew
Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 10:30:26 AM EST

The show must go on

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Thursday Open Thread | 72 comments (72 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

Tonight's show, conveniently, these cold nights, in the neighbourhood:

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 10:39:58 AM EST

Re: Is it my updated laptop or (none / 0)

are other people seeing a very strange comment board, only filling the left side of the page although the diary area itself looks fine?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 11:08:32 AM EST

Re: Is it my updated laptop or (none / 0)

I do.

It sometimes happen when there are only short comments, on firefox 3 at least. Long sentences appearing should do the widening.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 11:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is it my updated laptop or (none / 0)

Thank you.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 11:14:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now for the fun. (none / 1)

I've got a whole bunch of stuff that I would have posted over the past 2 weeks except I had no laptop. So here we go.

1. The MSM is LOVING the India violence, what with the "excitement" and "draw" of the election being over, and the difference between MSNBC (who I no longer like) and FOX is interesting. How is it playing in Europe?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 11:18:22 AM EST

Re: Now for the fun. (none / 0)

They're all too obsessed with being "live" CNN? BBC World, ITV, France 24 - but often that just involves meaningless shots of people milling around, witnesses saying they didn't know what was happening and experts trying to fill air-time. It's a big story, but not the only thing that's happening in the world. They can always come back to it when there is significant new information.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 11:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 0)

2. While I was away Noam Chomsky was shown giving a university talk on Democracy Now, and he stated that Europe is much more racist than the US. Your opinion.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 11:44:46 AM EST

Re: Next! (none / 0)

He was discussing how self-congratulatory the US media has been about Obama's election, his more important point is:

On the other hand, if you look at the world, it's not that remarkable. So let's take the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere. Haiti and Bolivia. In Haiti, there was an election in 1990 which really was an extraordinary display of democracy much more so than this.
...
Take the second poorest country, Bolivia. They had an election in 2005 that's almost unimaginable in the West. Certainly here, anywhere. The person elected into office was indigenous. That's the most oppressed population in the hemisphere, those who survived. He's is a poor peasant. How did he get in? Well, he got in because there were again, a mass popular movement, which elected their own representative. And they are the source of the programs, which are serious ones. There's real issues, And people know them. Control over resources, cultural rights, social justice and so on.
...
ctually what happened here is understood by elite elements. The public relations industry which runs elections here-quadrennial extravaganzas essentially- makes sure to keep issues in the margins and focus on personalities and character and so on-and-so forth. They do that for good reasons. They know- they look at public opinion studies and they know perfectly well that on a host of major issues both parties are well to the right of the population. That's one good reason to keep issues off the table. And they recognize the success.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/24/noam_chomsky_what_next_the_elections

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 0)

Next ? :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 0)

He also said:

Let me make one final comment on this. There was meeting on November 7, I think of a group of couple, of a dozen advisers to deal with the financial crisis. Their careers were, records were reviewed in the business press, and Bloomberg News had an article reviewing their records and concluded that these people, most of these people shouldn't be giving advice about the economy. They should be given subpoenas.
[applause]
Because most of them were involved in one or other form of financial fraud, that includes Rahm Emanuel, for example. What reason is there to think that the people who brought this crisis about are some how going to fix it? Well, that's a good indication of what's likely to come next, at least if we look at actions.
ibid

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (4.00 / 4)

I read that piece of Chomsky, too, and was quite disappointed.

First he says, that in Haiti and Bolivia there is more democracy than in the West, later explaining it with "which elected their own representative". We do that every for years. And before we had dictators, imperators, feudal lords, theocrats,... that were all our own representatives wrt race.
The unusual thing about electing Obama was, that a representative of a racial minority (e.g. NOT 'own representative') that is not a privileged one, was elected. Chomsky doesn't name a single example from the rest of the world, where this would have been in such dramatic terms the case.

Already from other comments of Chomsky I had the impression that his view of Europe is a grotesque caricature far from reality. E.g. he said once, that while in the US the professor would greet the caretaker (which may be true), in Europe there wouldn't be such kind of communication between people of different classes. This is utter nonsense. The existence of some class conscience doesn't mean, we don't communicate with people of other classes. If he would have said, the professor invites the caretaker to his birthday in the US, that would have been impressive.

As well the claim there an election of somebody like Obama would be impossible in Europe is wrong. Many newspapers indeed wrote such rubbish. But I'm absolutely convinced, that race plays a minor role compared with the US in Europe. European Tribune is one of the most race obsessed places in the internet or real live I ever interacted with.
The real reason for the lack of a black head of gov't is the lack of an Obama, a person with all the other characteristics of Obama. He is culturally undoubtfully an American, he has parents, who were going to a renowned university (as both his parents), he didn't run his election campaign focusing on the Afro-American community (as e.g. Al Sharpton), but even that would have been different than let's say a Hispanic running on opening the border to Mexico. He was brought up by white Americans, and if it were not for the colour of his skin, most likely he would not even be identified as any kind of minority (Ok, that maybe the point of racism).
There are simply very few black people of the age, that the leadership typically has, born here. I know a couple of black people, who identify themselves unambiguously with Germany, but the oldest of them is 29.
Give us an Obama, and we would vote for him. Actually probably even Obama could run in Europe and win. Citizenship honores causa.

With regard to non-black immigrants, one may note, that Nicolas Sarkozy is the son of an immigrant, has a name, that sounds for many French people very unusual (I heard a radio cast by a Frenchman, where he called 'presidente Sarkozy' an oxymoron by the very way it sounds). But Sarko isn't seen so much as an immigrant(?). The obsession with blacks is typically US American. E.g. for the much beloved Napoleon only Frenchness counted. The live of a German was as important as the live of an ant for him.

Daniel Cohn-Bendit recently said about the elections in Hesse, people would like to see Al Wazir against Koch. One remaining obstacle for immigrants to get to the highest office is of course that those who want to engage in German politics often join the greens, who usually don't provide the top officials, and membership of the greens means already, that you will have a tough time not making your background a political issue. (I predict, that the CDU will be the first in Germany to provide a black chancellor or president and would bet 60 to 40, that the Christian Democratic Union will provide the first practising muslim chancellor or president as well.)

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (4.00 / 2)

Well, sometimes they join the SPD...

Martin:

would bet 60 to 40, that the Christian Democratic Union will provide the first practising muslim chancellor

A reasonable proposition. The only reason I would bet against you is that so far the CDU seems congenitally unable to realize (or admit?) that the majority of Muslims share their values.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chomsky (none / 0)

It helps if you read what he actually says and don't just focus on minor points, nor take words out of context. As I've already pointed out, Chomsky is referring to the US media congratulating the US about this election. He also refers to the European response, where a lot of the media said that it couldn't happen here. It's not just his view and he is more or less saying, let's grant all this - but then look at the rest of the world and we see a big difference. So your long diatribe about Europe is beside the point.

You take his phrase "which elected their own representative" out of context, which makes the difference obvious:

Take the second poorest country, Bolivia. They had an election in 2005 that's almost unimaginable in the West. Certainly here, anywhere. The person elected into office was indigenous. That's the most oppressed population in the hemisphere, those who survived. He's is a poor peasant. How did he get in? Well, he got in because there were again, a mass popular movement, which elected their own representative. And they are the source of the programs, which are serious ones. There's real issues, And people know them. Control over resources, cultural rights, social justice and so on.
Furthermore, the election was just an event that was particular stage in a long continuing struggle, a lot before and a lot after.
[CF. his comment on Haiti:]
In Haiti, there were grassroots movements, popular movements that developed in the slums and the hills, which nobody was paying any attention to. And they managed, even without any resources, to sweep into power their own candidate. A populist priest, Jean-Bertrand Aristide. That's a victory for democracy when popular movements can organize and set programs and pick their candidate and put them into office, which is not what happened here, of course.
...
[cf. the end of the talk]
The Wall Street Journal, at the opposite end of the spectrum, [re Obama]... Talked about the tremendous grassroots army that has been developed , which is now waiting for instructions. What should they do next to press forward Obama's agenda? Whatever that is. But whatever it is, the army's supposed to be out there taking instructions, and press work. Los Angeles Times had similar articles, and there are others. What they don't seem to realize is what they're describing, the ideal of what they're describing, is dictatorship, not democracy.
... But in the sense of say, much of the south, where mass popular movements developed programs; organize to take part in elections but that's one part of an ongoing process. And brings somebody from their own ranks to implement the programs that they develop, and if the person doesn't they're out. Ok, that's another kind of democracy.

As for his comment on class re academics in US and Europe, as an ex-academic in the UK I think it's probably true. But anyway, it's the kind of trivial point (with no link to a source) seized on by right-wing critics because they don't have any arguments about his main points.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 06:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chomsky (none / 1)

But anyway, it's the kind of trivial point (with no link to a source) seized on by right-wing critics because they don't have any arguments about his main points.

So right wing critics critisise Chomsky for not appreciating the importance of the election of Obama?

So your long diatribe about Europe is beside the point.

You posted this as a response to Twank's question about the comparison of racism in the US and Europe. Of course from a POV of the target audience this is just a side point for Chomsky. But it was Twank's question and Chomsky refers to it. So I focused on that, and think it is legitim.

And yes, Chomsky talks as well about other things than race, but not solely. As well from rereading I can't see, that only the part you boldened is important. I would even say it is less important from the structure the paragraph is made up.
And he refers to the election of Obama as if it were something that could happen everywhere in the poor countries in a similar way. As well from rereading I get that impression. Probably he is not completely wrong. But the phenomenon Obama is so far unique, even if indeed I would argue it could happen elsewhere - most likely in the West, but less likely somewhere else. How good is the chance that the ANC puts up a white person or a refugee from Zaire?

On Haiti, he ignores again the majority relations. A functioning democracy doesn't have such large movements, because the parties have that role. If interests are very diverse a movement can't bring together a majority. Parties include already compromises between different subgroups. If many are in a similar situation popular movements work. But Chomsky celebrates, that Haitians get to manage something that happened in the Western world hundreds of years ago. Minority movements of course may get into elections - by forming a new party, like the greens across most of Europe or WASG/Die Linke in Germany.

For the last part, again you can join work groups etc. of a party. How many people of the movements in Haiti or Bolivia are really introducing new ideas? How complex can the policies become, before you need to rely on a couple of experts, whom you trust without permanent control? Are the ideas of Obama supporters compatible with each other - that I can answer: No.

Chomsky often says a lot of interesting things, but he has a defeatist bone.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 09:02:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chomsky (none / 0)

So right wing critics critisise Chomsky for not appreciating the importance of the election of Obama?

They AND "liberals" in the US - but his reasons for why he doesn't appreciate it are not trivial and are the ones given in the talk. It includes a lot of discussion about the way in which the system works in the US and how limited the general range of opinion is in the US - (including in comparison with Europe; a point he often makes elsewhere in Europe's favour).

"So your long diatribe about Europe is beside the point."
You posted this as a response to Twank's question about the comparison of racism in the US and Europe. Of course from a POV of the target audience this is just a side point for Chomsky. But it was Twank's question and Chomsky refers to it. So I focused on that, and think it is legitim.

Yes, but you use it as stick to beat Chomsky with

I read that piece of Chomsky, too, and was quite disappointed.
First he says...

and I was saying that, in relation to his talk, his passing comment is a side-issue.

As well from rereading I can't see, that only the part you boldened is important. I would even say it is less important from the structure the paragraph is made up.

Not at all, it's central to the contrast he is making, i.e. about the much more active and prolonged involvement is in the democratic process, in contrast to the US. Cf., also in the talk, if you read it:

Actually what happened here is understood by elite elements. The public relations industry which runs elections here - quadrennial extravaganzas essentially - makes sure to keep issues in the margins and focus on personalities and character and so on-and-so forth.

Probably he is not completely wrong. But the phenomenon Obama is so far unique, even if indeed I would argue it could happen elsewhere - most likely in the West, but less likely somewhere else. How good is the chance that the ANC puts up a white person or a refugee from Zaire?

You continue to miss the key point - see previous quotation; he's arguing that focus on the candidate's character, personality or colour is typical of these "quadrennial extravaganzas" - which he contrasts with the far more significant involvement in a more general democratic process elsewhere in the world.

But Chomsky celebrates, that Haitians get to manage something that happened in the Western world hundreds of years ago. Minority movements of course may get into elections - by forming a new party, like the greens across most of Europe or WASG/Die Linke in Germany.

Chomsky is well aware of the history of political struggle in Europe (he wrote an essay about the Spanish Civil War when he was 12 !) and in the US. He's talking about the US TODAY and he has also written extensively on how working class movements have been suppressed and how the US democratic process has been largely reduced to voting every four years on the character, etc. of candidates for parties in a political spectrum which has greatly shifted to the Right. In this talk - as well as often elsewhere - he discussues this process, e.g.:

... at the liberal end the progressive end, the leading [very influential] public intellectual of the 20th century was Walter Lippman. A Wilson, Roosevelt, Kennedy progressive. And a lot of his work was on a democratic theory and he was pretty frank about it. ... He said that in a democracy, the population has a function. Its function is to be spectators, not participants. He didn't call it the population. He called it the ignorant and meddlesome outsiders. The ignorant and meddlesome outsiders have a function and namely to watch what's going on. And to push a lever every once in a while and then go home. But, the participants are us, us privileged, smart guys. Well that's one conception of democracy. And you know essentially we've seen an episode of it. The population very often doesn't accept this. As I mentioned, just very recent polls, people overwhelmingly oppose it. But they're atomized, separated. Many of them feel hopeless, unorganized, and don't feel they can do anything about it. So they dislike it. But that's where it ends.
In a functioning democracy like say Bolivia or the United States in earlier stages, they did something about it. That's why we have the New Deal measures, the Great Society measures. In fact just about any step, you know, women's rights, end of slavery, go back as far as you like, it doesn't happen as a gift. And it's not going to happen in the future.

IF the system goes on as it is - but he gives talks like this - MANY of them - and writes his many books and articles and gives interviews precisely because that's his way of trying to change the system. So your point about his supposed "tone" is wrong.

"Chomsky often says a lot of interesting things, but he has a defeatist bone."

He is being realistic about the problems, but goes on working as an activist because he clearly believes things CAN change (and HAVE, as he says, in the US since the 60s), cf. Gramsci, "Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will":

So something's happened to the country in 40 years. And what's happened to the country - which is we're not supposed to mention - is that there was extensive and very constructive activism in the 1960s, which had an aftermath. So the feminist movement, mostly developed in the 70s - the solidarity movements of the 80's and on till today. And the activism did civilize the country. The country's a lot more civilized than it was 40 years ago and the historic achievements illustrate it. That's also a lesson for what's next.
What's next will depend on whether the same thing happens. Changes and progress very rarely are gifts from above. They come out of struggles from below.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 05:20:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 0)

It seems you're probably referring to this - but in garbled form:

Chomsky: Consumption distracts people. You cannot control your own population by force, but it can be distracted by consumption. The business press has been quite explicit about this goal.
SPIEGEL: A while ago you called America "the greatest country on earth." How does that fit together with what you've been saying?
Chomsky: In many respects, the United States is a great country. Freedom of speech is protected more than in any other country. It is also a very free society. In America, the professor talks to the mechanic. They are in the same category.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,583454,00.html

I think he's generally right about this greater degree of egalitarianism - in attitudes not wealth, obviously. But it's not crucial to any of his main points.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 06:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 0)

He made that point repeatedly, as well in youtube video I recently watched.

But it's not crucial to any of his main points.
Then why is he saying that? Of course it is not related with the other stuff, but why is he saying such stuff that? Does he know so much about how it is in other countries, that he can decide that? If he really said it, why did he call America "the greatest country on earth." and not just a great or a very great country, implying with "the greatest" that other countries are somehow worse. If he didn't say it, why doesn't he correct spiegel and says, America has many positive and great aspects or something like that.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 07:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 0)

He's saying it, because he thinks it's true - if not very important, but it's also an indication of the effect of earlier democratic processes on US culture; ones now largely suppressed- see my other comment above.

If he really said it, why did he call America "the greatest country on earth." and not just a great or a very great country, implying with "the greatest" that other countries are somehow worse. If he didn't say it, why doesn't he correct spiegel and says, America has many positive and great aspects or something like that.

Again why don't you just read what he actually says:

SPIEGEL: A while ago you called America "the greatest country on earth." How does that fit together with what you've been saying?
Chomsky: In many respects, the United States is a great country. Freedom of speech is protected more than in any other country.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,583454,00.html

Cf.:

A SMALL computer file appeared on the Internet last week, purporting to list the 13,000 members of the racist, far-right British National Party.
...
Make no mistake, the Web sites of the large newspapers, frequent victims of strict libel laws in Britain, have done their part. Reporting on what cannot be reported is something in which the British have much more experience.
"In the U.S., the starting point is that you have the right of freedom of expression," said James Edelman, a law professor at Oxford. "There are ways it can be curtailed, but that is the starting point. It is almost the opposite in the U.K."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/24/technology/24link.php

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 05:52:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 1)

That's actually such a trite statement I'm suprised Chomsky made it.

Some parts of American society are very racist, some parts are not. The same is equally true of Europe. Is American racism different to european racism ? Yes of course, as racism to a greater degree is rooted in cultural assumptions which vary from place to place, country to country. So, I'm not even sure that the racism in upper class england can even be usefully compared to that in working class england. Both are racism and, in some ways, might find common cause, but one is very much not the other.

So making a statement as apparently definitive as chomsky's just seem clown-ish to me.

One might ask as uselessly whether America is more misogynist than europe because we've had female political leaders when, one suspects, it may be a rainy day in hell.....etc

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 1)

He didn't make a statement, he cited rhetoric around the Obama election.

Democracy Now! | Noam Chomsky: "What Next? The Elections, the Economy, and the World"

The election was described as an extraordinary display of democracy, a miracle that could only happen in America and on and on. Much more extreme than Europe even than here. There's some accuracy in that if we keep to the West. So if we keep to the West, yes, it's probably true. That couldn't have happened anywhere else. Europe was much more racist than the United States and you wouldn't expect anything like that to happen.

He seems to be agreeing with it, though, which is in fact sloppy of him.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next! (none / 0)

As I said above - the far more important and substantial point was about the rest of the world, and how the election of Obama was not such a wonderful event, for the reasons he gives.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (none / 1)

What other sites do you feel compete with ET? I want the same genre and quality of discourse. Dkos doesn't cut it because it's blatantly in the tank for the Dems regardless of the damage. Is Booman as "good" as ET? What others?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:18:09 PM EST

GUARANTEED REFUND! (4.00 / 2)

ET is unique, special, and wonderful. Just try the other places, go on, try.

If you find a place more unique, special, and wunderbar than ET, we'll give you your money back.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GUARANTEED REFUND! (4.00 / 2)

"more unique" ? :-) surprised to see YOU writing that afew :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:50:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GUARANTEED REFUND! (none / 1)

I was being self-indulgent, see wunderbar.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:53:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (4.00 / 2)

I don't remember too many republicans being here, so we were pretty much in the tank, however skeptical we were and are, for Obama too.

People choose a site to frequent like they choose a newspaper, they want one that flatters them by reflecting their own prejudices back at them. So "best" simply means, "best for me" rather than any view on the quality of discourse.

It's worrying tho'. That all across europe there are only 100 or so people who even remotely agree with my viewpoints, or at least sympathise with where I'm coming from, is lonely and frightening. no wonder meetups are such good fun, we all feel the same "at last someone understands...." lifiting of the weight.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (4.00 / 3)

"all across europe there are only 100 or so people who even remotely agree with my viewpoints"

Or at least bother to post about them to the blogs you frequent. I suspect your figure is incorrect, because I could easily point to 100+ people in arch-conservative Colorado Springs who would have no problem with your viewpoints...most of them living within a dozen blocks of my house...

by asdf on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (none / 0)

But that's just evidence :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (none / 0)

Tut tut, anecdote...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (none / 0)

I was being self-indulgently pithy :-) - IF we were to verify asdf's very plausible claim, that would be evidence, something rather regularly neglected by some people.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 01:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (none / 1)

asdf:

100+ people

That being all of the progressives in El Paso County? ;-)

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 01:30:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (none / 0)

god, I don't think I know 100 people in the whole of London and Essex. Let alone know their politics.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (4.00 / 3)

An advantage of living in a community labelled as conservative hotbed is that it gets a lot of extra attention on controversial matters. In this particular case there has been for some time a program to encourage discussion on matters of particular relevance to the GLBT folks that takes the form of yard signs that one may set up in one's front yard. The signs have a picture of a dog that says Moo! because he or she was "born different," the point being to open up the question of whether homosexuality is an inborn or an adopted characteristic.

Many of my neighbors have such signs in their front yards. Some of them are gay. One could in theory be an anti-gay conservative and have such a sign, but in practice this is not likely. There are dozens of them in my surrounding neighborhood, therefore I could ring doorbells and construct a list of 100 people who support Helen's viewpoints.

http://www.borndifferent.org/home.html
http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200609290001

by asdf on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 06:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (none / 0)

That whole campaign strikes me as being incredibly odd! Does it get people talking? Without people's signs being kicked down or bricks through windows?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 07:00:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (4.00 / 2)

Well, it triggered an attempt at a backlash by Focus on the Family, but the main point was understood by most people. There's relatively little bricks-through-windows around here, partly because we live in a police state so most people are terrified of getting in trouble with the law, and partly because there is significant gun ownership and one always risks being shot at... :-)

by asdf on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 09:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Number 3, a QUESTION: (none / 0)

Dkos doesn't cut it because it's blatantly in the tank for the Dems regardless of the damage

Well I sure hope DKos doesn't cross-fertilize with say, RedStates or Little Green Footballs.

by Asinus Asinum Fricat (pjmandeville@gmail.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

Tribext - is there a way to view the source?

I've tried searching according to someone's original instructions but the file location isn't obvious.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:37:32 PM EST

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Windows: Documents and settings/Application Data/Firefox/Profiles/<string of letters>.default/extensions/TribExt@someone/chrome/content

Mac: ~/Library/Application Support/Firefox/Profiles/<string of letters>.default/extensions/TribExt@someone/chrome/content

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

Thanks, but that doesn't work on Windows - no Application Data folder in Documents, and no mention of Firefox in any of the other possible app data locations.

Who knows why?

I'll check on one of the Macs and see if Firefox's file layout is any better behaved there.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0)

I'm supposed to be going out to a meeting tonight, but I've just eaten and I'm feeling sluggish.

It's awful really. I really don't wanna troll up to london just to talk to some people with whom I'm not sure I get along. I want to be sociable, but I really can't be bothered. And that troubles me, I feel I should be making an effort, that I'm not engaging enough, or not engaging with people enough... :-))).

Besides I've got two days hard drinking ahead of me at the InWales gig, so I need a night off.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:41:41 PM EST

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

I took my daughter and a couple of her friends to 'The Music of Andrew Lloyd Webber' at Hartwall Arena last night. Starring Elaine Paige or whatever her name is. Andy was having his birthday so he was obviously not going to be in Helsinki. I was on freebies, having done the voiceover for the radio ads.

A couple of good young singers on show, and a full orchestra that performed rather well considering their proximity to smoke machines. I did not like being blinded by rotating white spots every time the Jesus Christ Superstar chorus came up. And my comment to the girls that there was a bit too much swearing in that song sent them off into giggles.

Tonight I have to drop into a record release for 'Bobb Hale' - no idea what it is, or what kind of music, but I promised to show my face briefly. Then later I'll be joining fellow self-organizing fans at a party for collaborative software company Dicole.

Oh, and yesterday my paradontologist informs me that a molar will have to come out. Fortunately my chewing abilities will not be affected over Yule - it'll be yanked out in January.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 05:51:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Gaah....

by lychee on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:47:41 PM EST

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

Gaah Part 2: No Caption. From the 2003 Cedar Fire.

by lychee on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 12:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

That's really quite nasty. the way those initial fires just appear on the horizon is very ominous.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pissed off and bummed (4.00 / 8)

I just got back from a city planning commission and man am I in a foul mood.

We live on one side of a block that is bounded on three sides by apartments (some of them subsidized and on our side be a bunch of small town(/terraced)houses, and open in the middle - like a small park. This is was an important design concept of German urban planning in the 1920s. The green space has become even more important in the intervening decades because the block sits at the corner of two major streets.

The city housing authority wants to build in the middle of the green space - and this, mind you in the second most densely populated part of the city, and in defiance of all considerations of microclimate and historically developed urban social structures.

This has been ongoing for a year, and we (basically me, my wife and another guy, with the full support of all our neighbors) have been working very hard to educate the local politicians. We convinced the district parliament, which voted overwhelmingly (but not unanimously - guess which party is against open space?) against construction in the interior of the block.

The big hurdle was always the city planning commission, and we've been lobbying and communicating with the various parties leading up to tonight's meeting, and from the gossip I'd been getting I figured the odds as only 2:3 against. But still...

So anyway, our topic comes up and the head honcha of the greens grabs the mike and begins, in tone of contempt, "We've all received way too much correspondence on this matter..." (meaning: from the likes of me). Yup. The greens want to fill in open space that was deliberately planned for a low- and middle-income neighborhood (oh, but you should hear her on the subject of building on green space in her neighborhood - obviously it's OKIYAGreen).

The SPD head on the commission (whose relationship to the Green honcha is symbiotic bordering on sycophantic) went into a deer-in-the-headlights act: oh, in principle we're in favor of developing this space but not like that...).

In our fair city, decisions are arrived at by shifting majorities. And in this case, Greens + symbiosycophants had the votes.

So I'm pissed off and bummed. And I came here to vent.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 01:26:16 PM EST

Re: Pissed off and bummed (4.00 / 2)

Then that person is not a green. What are their platforms if not to protect the lived environment ?

Deep throat croaks : "Follow the money...."

Who benefits ? Who pays ? Who profits ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:14:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pissed off and bummed (4.00 / 3)

Well, she's not a green, but she's a very influential (locally) Green.

As to the money: the city housing authority was semiprivatized several years ago, and the city gets a certain number of seats on the supervisory board (to be filled by councilpersons). And she is definitely there.

The housing authority says the five to ten percent gain in housing units (depending on who's talking and when) means an 80% difference in the roi on this project... but of course they're not coming across with real numbers. Financing is largely public and/or publicly guaranteed.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pissed off and bummed (none / 1)

Rant away, Dear Chap, some of us love violent poetry.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Greetings from Mansfield Depot, Connecticut, where it's frakking cold and I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere, somewhere kinda-sorta near UConn with awful beer and no 3G. :\ Happy Needless Turkey Murder Day to all!

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:12:21 PM EST

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

with awful beer and no 3G

Sounds like most of the world

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 02:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hi (4.00 / 3)

well I have 3g but being at home with no Internet it's a poor substitute... Our cable company's been AWOL since the fire (more than a month ago) and our neighbor's wireless is off tonight, for some reason...

This after yet another long day at work with no time to blog... but some. if decisions Monday will tell if it was worth it. I've been told to do my job (lending to wind projects) with no money and I have actually found a way to do that (don't ask yet) but the decision process is so f@cked internally that it may still be rejected.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 04:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hi (none / 1)

Good luck; we're also told to cut our budgets by 10%, hiring freeze but keep our projects on track...

Yet another farewell party today at the office (and no replacement hire allowed); it's becoming depressing.

On a lighter note, I think I can see your tower in La Defense from my workplace building, since they demolished the building across ours...

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 04:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hi (none / 1)

Good luck. You must be tremendously frustrated.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hi (4.00 / 4)

Don't tell us you've gone Chris Cook on us!

Naaah, probably gone into the UTC market - Under The Counter.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

Oh, I suppose it's Thanksgiving today. Yay. I think I'll go to school at 7:30, and teach my usual set of classes, then go home and go to bed early. Yay.

by Zwackus on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 03:50:28 PM EST

Re: I've had my nap, so onward! (none / 1)

4. QUESTION:

If I was to recommend ET to a "friend" who is VERY busy but I want to direct that person to the "best of ET" to get him/her hooked, where would I send him/her?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 04:14:17 PM EST

Re: I've had my nap, so onward! (none / 0)

What are they interested in?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 04:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've had my nap, so onward! (none / 1)

What I feel is the ABSOLUTE BEST of ET! Intelligent Progressive discourse on finance etc. focussed on the current world situation and how to possibly get out of it. How many times have I heard you folks say how schlocky (i.e. right wing, richy-richy BS) things like FT and the WSJ are? How about ET as a counter "Journal"? But focussed on more than just bitching!

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 04:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've had my nap, so onward! (none / 0)

The Anglo Disease series would be a good start.

The daily Salon is also a good place to visit.

Oh, and a list of various diaries on the financial crisis...

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And on to 5. QUESTION: (none / 1)

Would it be possible/desirable to have a list pop up on the homepage (once a person logs on/in?) showing who else is logged in/on? Or is that getting too "clubby"?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 04:31:59 PM EST

Re: And on to 5. QUESTION: (none / 1)

way too clubby :-))

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And on to 5. QUESTION: (none / 1)

Hyi as the Finns say. Way too much interactivity!

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And on to 5. QUESTION: (none / 1)

"Way too much interactivity." Is that a joke or is that serious?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 05:44:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And on to 5. QUESTION: (none / 1)

A bit of both. Knowing who is online is kind of irrelevant to the procedure of ET - which is not a chat.

Like many, I am logged in most of the time to ET - but, depending on my workday or social evening, I appear here briefly at odd moments for a quick read and a possible post. It might appear from the evidence that I am constantly present. But I am not.

I've nothing against chats: there's a Finnish movie one that I spend a couple of hours in every now and then to keep in touch with a few colleagues and the latest gossip. But I prefer threads.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 06:05:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

Sometimes LolCats are reasonably amusing like the one below.

see more crazy cat pics

Very occasionally there are masterpieces (I couldn't find one to illustrate). And, more frequently, such exercises in cringe as the one below. But at least it is loving...

see more crazy cat pics

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:27:54 PM EST

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

the dragonfly is wrong, there are 9 dus.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:31:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 05:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

by lychee on Thu Nov 27th, 2008 at 10:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

isnt it ten?

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 03:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

9 by my count - but we'll have to go back to the record (oh no!) to prevent a flame war by the facts. Or possibly dragonflies count in some other system.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 05:33:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 1)

da da da da one one note

da da da down a tone

da da down two tones

da back up one

from what I remember

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 at 01:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]