European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Data privacy: Could this be the start of something good?

by euamerican
Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 03:31:18 PM EST

Article from EUobserver: "Brussels attacks new US security demands"

After selling out some of Europe's data protection standards to Washington, it now seems that the Commission has had enough. Washington's new demands now include travel authorization (what?!) and the more data on air passengers that are flying over, but not stopping, in the US.

"According to the director general, such issues would include the recent US demand to extend the passenger data system to information on air passengers flying over its territory but not landing there. Under the current accord, US security authorities collect 19 pieces of data on European air passengers, except when the travelers are just flying over the US."

Yep, as the US has been pushing with Canada. One Canadian on a messageboard asked about what would happen if "unacceptable passengers" were flying over US airspace from Canada to, say, an island in the Caribbean. "With my charge for pot possession, would the US government scramble F-16 fighters and force my plane down if I try flying to a holiday in the Caribbean?"

"The wishlist includes in-flight security officers aboard transatlantic flights operated by the US airlines, an electronic travel authorisation system as well as an accord to share further data on air passengers and lost and stolen passports."

As one who follows what appears to be increasing data exchanges aimed at travel restriction of various classes of people, I find that the European Commission finally standing up to this is long overdue. In fact, the increase in data exchanges that are aimed at restricting the travel rights of innocent people must eventually become an issue for the United Nations, especially human rights advocates.

Diary rescue by Migeru

As we should be aware of, the first order of business for tyrannical governments is to restrict the freedom of movement and the human right to leave one's nation, as stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 13(2)).

" `We don't negotiate matters which are dealt with in Washington with the state of California - that would be disrespectful and we expect the US to be similarly respectful of our law and system here,' Mr Faull told journalists."

If it hasn't dawned yet on the "Americans" in the European institutions and national capitals, that there in no such thing as an "equal partnership" with the US, there should be daylight now. I would like to see those countries that are getting into these agreements with the US investigated for violations of Community law, and referred for infringement proceedings if they are found to be in agreements with Washington that are, indeed, in violation of Community law.

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Data privacy: Could this be the start of something good? | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Data privacy (none / 1)

If you use a credit card you have given up any hope of privacy anyway. Why is it ok for private companies to have databases of financial records, transactions, your physical movement, your facial profile, your drug usage history, etc., but not the government? If anything, the government has a better argument for keeping track of people than an anonymous private company...

by asdf on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 10:05:25 PM EST

Re: Data privacy (4.00 / 3)

Because private companies cannot pass laws that require that we "ask for permission" to travel internationally and leave the country, which is my human right, we do not fear private companies. A private company cannot do damage to our human rights to the same extent that a government can, acting under the cloak of sovereign legitimacy and under the aire of "protecting security"- that's why!

Actually-it is government that needs to be taken out of the information gathering business...because government has the power to destroy one's life.

Since private companies cannot prevent me from boarding a plane and exercising my human right to leave my country, and government can, it is government that is in need of regulating.

by euamerican on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:32:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy (none / 1)

I think this is a debateable point. Governments can do the things you say, but there is some degree of transparency simply because of the legislative process. One can at least argue about whether or not personal information should be required for airline travel.

Private companies, on the other hand, can make rules of their own that can only be fought by regulation, which takes you back to the government problem, or by not using the service they provide. But in modern economic life, practically everybody uses credit for buying houses, cars, or groceries. Most people use credit or debit cards to purchase gasoline. Most people have cell phones. What that means is that companies like Acxiom have huge, almost completely unregulated databases that record every financial transaction you make, every phone call you make (and the associated cell phone tower and bearing), the streets you drive on, whether you have water in your basement, what size underwear you wear, etc. How do you disengage from such a system and still manage to live? It's practically impossible.

IF there were a strong demand for privacy then this stuff could be regulated, but people are sheep.

by asdf on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 08:54:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy (none / 1)

Nonsense. Unless privatised information databases are kept under regulatory lock and key, they are at least as great a threat to our rights and freedoms as governments.

The difference with respect to credit card purchases is that those databases are necessary for balancing the books - I would, for instance, be very suspicious of a bank that does not log my credit card usage. But the key point to remember is that the use of such databases must be heavily regulated to prevent abuses and restrict data collection to only the data that it is necessary to collect, and it is this regulation that is insufficient in many cases.

Those considerations apply whether the agency doing the collection is private or public, however, so the distinction is a red herring.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 09:18:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy (none / 0)

I agree: the government is in principle subject to democratic accountability, and if the government is undemocratic or unaccountable that is the issue that must be addressed first.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 at 11:06:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (3.50 / 2)

From a European point of view, I see little problem with the US wanting all sorts of information and authority over people traveling to and over their country. After all, it's their country, their madness, and they have the right to demand visitors to their country to jump trough every weird hoop they can think off. (And given 9-11, I think that, yes, overflying counts as a 'visiting').

As long as they can keep their hands off data that has nothing to do with them (which I doubt, but that's another story), it's their party.

I suspect North-Korea demands even more stuff if you want to visit them. It just means they get less visitors.

by GreatZamfir on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 05:08:43 AM EST

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 0)

Curiosity question: In Europe, do you get mail order catalogs delivered to your house? Americans get piles and piles of them, customized to their individual buying habits... I wonder if you are somehow immune to that...

by asdf on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 08:56:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 0)

I think that depends on which country you live in. In Denmark, we get lots of ads (but we do have a 'no ads' list). But our legal system takes a dim view of unsolicited, personalised offers.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 09:22:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 1)

Buying habits should be used to deny a person the right to leave his country and be to be assessed as a "high risk?"

by euamerican on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:21:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (4.00 / 2)

The problem is I have to live here and put up with this fascist-totalitarian crap! The fact is that we here in the United States are a bit powerless when it comes to the political process and agencies, like the DHS. Government agencies can make rules that have the force of law.

I am forced to live here and put up with this, but the day they tell me I can't travel to Europe again is the day I consider getting out. The problem is that for someone with a 20 year old conviction record, there is no where to go.

The idea that an innocent person should be subject to these mad-paranoid "security measures" should be enough to justify refugee status, as it does for those from Belarus. If someone from Belarus were subject to these mad paranoid, "security measures," the European Union would say that its "persecution," but an American that is subjected to the same sort of travel restrictions (aided by European institutions) than that's "security against terrorists and organized criminals."

Hypocrisy of the first order!

by euamerican on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 09:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 0)

Uhm, Belarus is still a lot worse than the US. Really. In fact, I think in most European countries the government has far greater freedom to snoop on its citizens than in the US.

by GreatZamfir on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 0)

Yes and no. They snoop in different areas. European governments know how much you earn, and if they break a few rules, they can quickly find out your medical history and your financial situation. But European governments aren't allowed to read your e-mail and listen in on your phone calls - they only log who you communicate with not what the content is, and even that power was vested in them only due to the Phony War (the fact that they get around that rule by having another government spy on their citizens and then exchange any 'interesting' information is another matter).

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 09:10:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 1)

Actually, the U.S. government (and probably most other governments) also knows how much you earn. One main difference is that the U.S, government doesn't (yet?) get a record of all your travel via compulsory hotel registration. There's also no direct registration of where you live, but they can easily get that via the IRS, for example.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 11:28:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (4.00 / 2)

The US is heading the way of Belarus, and the things I see going on (asking for "permission to travel," "risk assessment scores," and no due process in it all), as well as the joblessness, people losing their homes, no basic health care, increasing police brutality - and a government that has isolated itself and cares little about American people - has me scared!

I trust European governments vastly more that the American government. European police appear to be less inclined to arrest first and ask questions later that there American counterparts. The way things stand in America now, they can come and pick me up and say they are doing so because of the "Patriot Act" and there is no habeas corpus. They can take me, a native-born American, Catholic, of Western European background, to "Gitmo" if they wish. "Preventative detention" is HERE in America, right now!

I actually trust my human rights to Europe more than America - no matter what line about "the US and human rights" the phony Christian Democrats in the European People's Party like to put out. The EPP may be worried about Belarus, but the future of human rights in America should also be of concern to Christian Democrats!

I trust Europeans, as they appear to have learned from the mistakes of the past. Those that sell out to the Americans, such as the CIA renditions and the so-called "war on terrorism," willingly comply with American demands (Franco Frattini) are the ones you need to worry about...

America's Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) has a history of abuse against Americans, and, for example, the FBI tried to paint Dr. Martin Luther King as a "communist."

Remember Richard Jewell? The so-called "Olympic Park Bomber" --- who turned out to be totally innocent of everything?!

by euamerican on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 09:44:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: (none / 0)

Just a dumb question. Where did you get this requirement that an American has to ask permission to travel? I usually travel outside the US at least several times a year and have never asked anyone permission to do so. Is this something new that I need to worry about?

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 08:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: (none / 1)

You have to get a passport, don't you? There's no constitutional requirement on the government to give you one. In the past, the US has denied passports to communists, and these days they have been dening them to people who owe child support.

I'm not sure if the U.S. can stop you from emigrating, if some other country grants you citizenship before you leave the U.S.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 01:24:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: (none / 0)

Have you tried travelling to a country outside the US without a passport lately? Until recently US citizens could get away with presenting a birth certificate to reenter the US from some places (Mexico, Canada and some Carribean countries) but most countries I am aware of require a US passport (which is just a certified citizenship identity document) to let you in.

There is a federal law that may deny a passport to a person who is past due over $2500 in child support payments. (see http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cse/newhire/library/brochures/fpls/passport.htm ) I presume this law was passed to prevent a parent from either leaving their court-ordered obligations for a child behind by fleeing the country. Passports may also be confiscated, or denied if the owner commits a crime or is under investigation for a crime, subject to written request by a law enforcement agency.

Here is an interesting argument before a circuit court over the constitutionality of this law. Note, the law that denied passports to communists was struck down in 1964. (http://www.metnews.com/articles/euni091701.htm)

I guess my main point is that the US is not really worse off than other countries when it comes to passports/permission to travel. That's not to say that there are no onerous laws enacted in the US. I suffer through at least a few every day as others do, but I see little likelihood that there are less onerous laws in other countries. No country has a patent on perfection.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 01:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (4.00 / 3)

Another point that I was also trying to make is that Americans should not have to ask their government for permission to travel internationally. NO person that is living in a supposed free society should have to ask a government agency (Department of Homeland Security) for "permission to travel." Asking for "permission to travel" is something that is associated with autocracies and totalitarianism, not free societies.

One should not have to go to a legislature to get his/her name off of a "no fly" list or to find the rational behind how one got his/her on name on a "no fly" list in the first place. The idea should be some kind of due process for those unfortunate people that are subject to these "security measures." Due process is often hard to get for those caught up and told they cannot board an airplane of travel abroad. And- most importantly - the methodology of just how someone is placed in the situation is classified and not open to scrutiny by legislatures, parliaments or Congress.

Could these "security measures" be about more than just "keeping terrorists and organized criminals" off airplanes? After 9-11, lots of anti-war activists' names were on the "no fly" list, and these lists appeared to be aimed at keeping political activists, not "terrorists" from traveling.

When it come to international travel for Americans, especially to and from Europe, it is beginning to look alot more like the Soviet Union. As one MEP once asked: "Would we have these same arrangements with Russia, Cuba and Belarus that we have with the United States?"

I don't think so...

...but now looks as if some in the Commission are coming to their senses.

by euamerican on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 09:35:02 AM EST

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 1)

To leave a country is in my opinion one of the most important rights of all. However, not to be allowed to go into every country.

I don't think the EU can negotiate if you are allowed to leave the US. It is even worse. What is the most effective thing to do for the EU to protest against certain US treatment of Europeans who want to travel to the US? I think to treat US citizens who want to travel here as the US treats Europeans who want to travel there.
I think Brazil at least had for some time an extra slot for US citizens which were treated worse than anybody else. That certainly is not what you want.

So can you explain what the EU should do to prevent onesided US action like becoming even more unfriendly or impertinent than the boarder officers are already now, without hurting you?

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 04:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 0)

So can you explain what the EU should do to prevent onesided US action like becoming even more unfriendly or impertinent than the boarder officers are already now, without hurting you?

Initiate war crimes prosecution against President Cheney and his little dummy? Deny visas to federal employees? Kick out American diplomats and spies? Arrest and prosecute accomplices in the torture flights?

Of course, the first and last are things that we should do anyway...

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 02:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (4.00 / 2)

What Brazil did (does?) was treat US citizens like Brazilians visiting the US, i.e. they were photgraphed and fingerprinted. Iran does the same thing: from a recent issue of the NY Review of Books:

The immigration officers are polite, a little embarrassed, even, as they recall that you will have to be fingerprinted. An exchange of shrugs quickly establishes a degree of complicity. We will all, a few tired US passengers and bored Iranian officials, have to act out a tiresome ritual dictated by diplomatic tit-for-tat. But Americans are pretty rare here. A dozen flights arrive and depart before the correct forms can be found, along with a stapler to attach them together, a pen to fill them in, the key to a room where there might be an ink pad, and so on. When the sticky job is done, an officer helpfully flourishes a Kleenex to wipe away the deep purple stains.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 03:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start of somet (none / 0)

Martin:

To leave a country is in my opinion one of the most important rights of all. However, not to be allowed to go into every country.

and it is:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

On the other hand, if you have the right to leave but no other country can be forced to grant you the right to enter, what can you do? And the right to enter would probably be denied to you if you don't have a passport.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 at 11:02:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Data privacy: Could this be the start (4.00 / 2)

On this question of data privacy there is a major discussion on the question of records of D.N.A. in the U.K. currently taking place. People not convicted (often bystanders) may have their D.N.A. taken by the police and kept on file. If I thought the security systems were reliable which they are plainly not I might see the point - but it strikes me as just another control in the system only made possible because of I.T. On the other point - ultimately the distinction between the government and private sector data bases strikes me as irrelevant - they are going to coalesce before your eyes or behind the scenes. What we do about it I dont know - given the current panic about security.

As Donald Rumsfeld said death gives war a bad reputation.

by nick w on Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 at 10:19:26 AM EST

Data privacy: Could this be the start of something good? | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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