European Tribune

The "Afghanistan Problem"

by afew
Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 04:54:32 AM EST

I'm writing this in response to The3rdColumn who wanted to know my solution to the "Afghanistan problem", and told me:

If you don't know the "Afghanistan problem" yet after everything that's been written about it and NATO's involvement in Afghanistan, I'm afraid no definition can help.

So here goes: I don't know what the Afghanistan problem is. I can see, not one, but several. If I were Afghan, I would probably see more, or at least I would see things differently. Afghan or European, I might think (as The3rdColumn her/himself did) of the problem of opium production. But, among the possibilities, there are three "Afghanistan problems" that stand out for me.


Problem One: Afghanistan

Afghanistan is a mountainous country inhabited by warrior tribes. Invading armies have never found it easy to subdue, or above all to maintain control of. In the more recent invasions, the British faced off with the Russians (this was in the nineteenth century) in the Great Game, an imperialist conflict fought over several episodes, in which the British lost an army to the Afghan tribes before finally pulling out, dispirited, in 1919.

The Soviet Union invaded and poured huge forces into conquering and holding Afghanistan between 1979 and 1989, before pulling out defeated.

The current invasion, originally American, with a side order of NATO since 2003, follows a similar pattern. A strong initial show of force gained the allegiance of a sufficient number of powerful war lords; Kabul was taken; the tribes not allied to the invaders cleared out for a time into the mountains, then began a gradually increasing guerrilla and won back lost ground. You can win Kabul, but you can't win all of the territory all of the time; conventional forces are at a disadvantage against the warrior tribes that are at home on their terrain; air superiority is insufficient to tip the balance.

Putting in increased military force is always the temptation for the invader. History indicates that it is unlikely to be successful. The end of the story is, the invader pulls out of Kabul and a new set of tribal alliances takes over the country.

So for this "Afghanistan problem", that of a country that has a tradition of rebellion against and defeat of an invader, the solution doesn't seem to lie in massive use of force.

Problem Two: Suffering

What went before is cold talk of history and strategy, you may say. And human suffering? The women and children forced to live under brutal patriarchal domination, unless we offer them something better, an open door to a different life?

Yes. I saw the other day a documentary about an Afghan girl of eight taken from school and forced to go to live with her husband in an arranged marriage. Yes, girls are widely denied schooling and women are shackled into traditional roles, even in Kabul. Yes, there are NGOs doing excellent work in health and education. No, I don't want that to stop.

But another documentary I saw, not long after the Soviets pulled out, showed a snippet of a talk with a boy of about twelve whose father had been killed in the fighting, and who was working 10-12 hours a day to keep the family alive.

"Don't you want to go to school?" he was asked.

"I'm too tired after work. I just want to sleep."

"So you don't want to study, then?"

"I do..." <lowers his head and begins to cry>

"Why are you crying?"

"I'm not crying, my heart is..."

"But why?"

"I'm so weak... So weak..."

To be so disillusioned with oneself, so despairing, at the age of twelve -- his voice and look as he said that is not something I'm going to forget. The Soviet invasion made an orphan of that boy and ruined his family. War itself is a source of oppression and trauma.

Of course we rightly feel indignant about human suffering, and the urge to get in there and set things straight is strong. Over the last half-century, as humanitarian causes and NGOs have gone global, from Bangla Desh and Médecins Sans Frontières through Band-Aid, debate has risen, often bitter, over the right to intervention by force. The more radical exponents of this supposed right (Bernard Kouchner for example, one of MSF's founders and now French Foreign Minister) almost join hands with the neocons in the acceptation of the use of force to spread human rights and democracy.

But, (quite apart from the question of where intervention is justified and where it isn't, among the many candidates around the globe), the problem is that it doesn't work. Force will not bring about deep changes in culture (see the Red Army and Mao's Cultural Revolution for examples). You don't spread democracy and the rule of law by the edge of the sword. Is there a single example in history where these have resulted from invasion, warfare, and bloodshed? (And no, history is not over: Fukuyama was just blowing another cloud of the smoke that serves to cover the nakedness of imperialist influence- and resource-grabbing.)

To this heart-breaking Afghanistan problem, I see no way forward in multiplying the horrors and trauma of war.

Problem Three: Washington

Immediately after 9/11, NATO invoked Article V of its founding document, the Washington Treaty, according to which:

an armed attack against one or several members shall be considered as an attack against all

But that was forgetting a far more fundamental, unspoken rule of NATO, which is that it belongs to the USA. The real command flow is from US down, and in this case, NATO members were moving faster than the Bush administration wished. What was about to be projected to shock and awe the world was American strike power. NATO had to put its noble Article V away, and Operation Enduring Freedom, the main thrust of which was  the invasion of Afghanistan, was entirely American-commanded (even if small allied contingents, organised as the ISAF - International Security Assistance Force - were given, as the name indicates, security tasks in and around Kabul). With the help of the Northern Alliance, Enduring Freedom quickly took over the country as the enemy predictably headed for the southern mountain fastnesses, but there, Enduring Freedom failed to adapt to mountain guerrilla tactics in order to get Osama bin Laden and clean out the al-Qaeda leadership.

America's focus, anyway, was on Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with al-Qaeda or 9/11. In the switch to that invasion NATO was called on to take command of ISAF. ISAF's numbers and "security" tasks gradually expanded. Meanwhile, predictably (see above), the Taleban-led southern tribes stepped up the guerrilla. By 2006, the pressure was on NATO: more troops had to be committed, and not for the original stability and reconstruction tasks, but for counter-insurgency in the south. The same pressure is seeing a surge again now.

There is no doubt about who piles on the pressure, it's the US, and this is my point. NATO has done Washington's bidding throughout: stay out! come in! lead "nation-building" (America doesn't do that)! take command! raise troop numbers! switch assignments to counter-insurgency! raise troop numbers...

This is the old Cold War alliance used as a US surrogate in quite different conflicts, in fact turf and resource wars, way outside of its original North Atlantic territory. European countries should not accept this vassal status but should look to building their own common defence organisation -- which should not, in any case, be pointed towards territorial domination abroad.

Pouring in more troops won't work anyway. What hope is there against the Pashtun tribes based in the mountains and across the entirely notional border with the Pakistani province of Waziristan? Pakistan being, uh, a US ally... Logically it would be necessary to put as many troops into Pakistan to harass the Taleban from that side, but that would mean an "explosive" Pakistani uprising with unpredictable results. And still the odds would be on a guerrilla victory.

So to this Afghanistan problem, the only solution I see is an orderly NATO withdrawal now, rather than an ignominious retreat later. If the US breaks its NATO toy as a result, too bad.

No Solution

So I see no solution to these "Afghanistan problems" in doing the bidding of the US military-industrial-diplomatic establishment and raising the war stakes. That will mean the return of the Taleban and the descent of a veil of obscurantism and oppression on the Afghani people? Perhaps, but how obscurantist and oppressive are the Northern Alliance tribes? And how hubristic are we to believe we can change things by shedding blood and blowing things up?

And when do we attack Saudi Arabia anyway?

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is the same as the "Iraq Problem" - how to acknowledge military defeat when you whole ethos is that of being the biggest baddest good guy.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 10:47:03 AM EST
According to one ARNAUD DE BORCHGRAVE (UPI Editor at Large), Europe is in testosterone slump:
Only one member of the German Bundestag out of 614 parliamentarians is in favor of putting the 2,900 German troops in Afghanistan in harm's way, or at least willing to say so publicly.

French, Spanish, Italian and Turkish parliaments have also put a variety of caveats on exposing their troops to danger. Some are prohibited from moving at night, which is when Taliban guerrillas move.

But outside of the national security elites in European countries, few buy in to Gates' admonitions. European media see Afghanistan as part of the Iraq imbroglio.

..democracy in Afghanistan is unattainable. At 9,000 tons a year, up 1,000 tons in a year, the opium poppy is now 80 percent of this narco-state's economy. Drug lords have replaced the warlords who replaced the Taliban.

...[in Munich] on Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and the Palestinian crisis, there was no fresh thinking.

The unspoken European view of the U.S. request for more troops for Afghanistan says if it weren't for Iraq, the United States would have no problem with the Taliban today. With the upcoming state visit of Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Baghdad, they also see an unhappy end to the Bush administration's grand design for Iraq and the emergence, sooner or later, of Iran as a nuclear power.


What I emboldened was most important piece of information I wanted to know.
by FarEasterner on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:04:50 AM EST
Washington Times columnist.

Next.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I were you, I wouldn't hope for "information" from Borchgrave, who is an aged ultra-reactionary pundit.

An example of his "information":

There is a new generation of Europeans who reached adulthood reading bestsellers that "document" how Sept. 11 was a plot cooked up by the CIA and Mossad to make Saudis the culprits.

What????

The man is utterly skewed, utterly poisonous.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:32:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where do Iget one of these books from? anyone got an amazon link?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:46:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're clearly not the "new generation".

Comes a time when you have to face it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:53:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
so the "new generation" are keeping things secret from me?

No doubt I'm part of the conspiracy of the old, keeping the youth down, but I didn't expect it to happen quite so soon.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 01:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you really are interested view this or if you can understand German view this .

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:51:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know I am going to be hate by this.... I know.. but I msut say it anyhow...

The agricultural society in Afganisthan is an mixture of non-religious hierarchies and gender models coupled with some nasty muslim extremism in some sectors.

Knowing where one starts and the other finishes is difficuls.

this is, as much as we may think that those awful "women roles", the truth is that in great areas of Afganistan they really not represent an "awful" life for the women involved.. in the same way that my gradnma was not at all unhappy (nor happy, neutral) because she lived in an strongly patriarchal soceity in the common area and matriarchal household with patriarchal domination.

So, despite, women role being a very important "problem" (as you called.. it is more like a nightmare) in some areas of exreme taliban structure and indeed, in the capital where a different gender model can be seen and adapted and comapred... the truth is that Afganistan is not Saudi Arabia where women live in hell in almost all the country..(and I would take the almost and say all but I do not dare), in most areas of rural Afganistan the woman role is not considered by women there as to be denigrating or awful.. is mythically structured and internalized so no internal rebuttal or "disgrace".

This is not to say that in taliban areas and city -style areas women do not feel... well.. infrahuman. They do live in hell, specially where female roles are changed by somewhat external hierarchichal structures to the village.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:06:05 AM EST
I'm not going to hate you or even hugely object to what you're saying. I was talking about a human problem seen from my European point of view. In many parts of Afghanistan (or other countries) the cultural values in place may be so monolithic that they are experienced as neutral (as you say), neither specially happy nor unhappy.

What matters is that we won't "improve" those cultures by war, on the contrary, we'll make things worse by placing people on a tectonic shift. Albrecht von Haller said something that I think is relevant:

Human life is reduced to real suffering, to hell, only when two ages, two cultures and religions, overlap

And if the overlap is produced by war, the suffering is far more intense.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:23:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh.. well it is not that different.

i was pointing out that it is difficult froma western outside perspective differentiate betweent hose areas, so bombing for outside to change the situation..or even any intervention is well... difficult.. really difficult.

It is much more easy in Saudi Arabia where women status is, well almost unviersally anti-mythical and symbolically enforced... but even there.. I would not bomb..frnakly in those cases of ogovernment imposing their elites vision like Saudi Arabia Sudan, Congo... frankly I do not know the solution.. and I do know there is a huge problem. I wa spointing out that in those situations is much worse than in Afganistan.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 01:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though at large I never particularly was involved in this subject (I mean women's rights in conservative muslim societies) knowing about it either personally (when i visited backward poor muslim villages) or through the press I think it is largely misconception in the west that women in muslim socities "live in hell" despite all what press used to report.
Not all, just feminists or otherwise distinguished women like Taslima Nasreen, they definitely feel frustrated and in many cases threatened. There are no conditions for independent women to live securely, it's true, but if they have protectors, strong families they generally do not feel suffering at all.
by FarEasterner on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:25:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]


"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:29:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.
by FarEasterner on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where?

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Am I on interrogation?
What exactly you want to know? How many villages I visited and talked with how many people (including women) and about what? I said I never was involved in research on this theme but I have got such impression. You know it's easy to know when you interact with people about their life.
by FarEasterner on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:39:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm asking because I think we're talking about Afghanistan and in particular Paktoonistan here, I think.

Having spent quite a lot of time there, and comparing it to other Muslim countries as well as India, I would say that we're really talking big differences here.

I just wanted to make sure where your impressions are coming from, account taken of the fact that the Islamic world is not monolithic, tipping hat to Edward Said.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In this case I can say - it was in Kashmir, Rajasthan (on the border witrh Pakistan) and in West Bengal.
by FarEasterner on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well okay then. Bengali cultural mores as regards the status of women would be a significant improvement over those in the average village in the NWFP or by extension south and eastern Afghanistan.

It's not Islam which is the problem here, I should point out, though it does perhaps exacerbate the problem.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:54:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What women endure in that part of Central Asia is in no way similar to your grandmother's role two generations ago in a conservative corner of Europe. Forced marriages in pre-puberty years. No rights, none. Inability to go out on one's home or village without armed male escort. Covered head to toe. Honor killings. Complete moral, legal and social subservience to men.

And I've never met a woman there who said she was even neutral, much less happy, about it. In my experience, the only ones who defend it are Westerners of various backgrounds and ideological perspectives who are doing what you are doign now.

I'd be happy to put you in contact with a few.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the background of your sources?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:40:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Personal travels. I was a student at the University of Peshawar in the late 1980's.

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you think this should modify my views on the use of force to effect cultural change?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Personally? Yes.

I respect that folks don't agree with this, and in particular in this forum my view is a greatly minoritarian view.

But I would point out that it is not entirely true that force never effects positive change. While likely true that exogenous force does not, endogenous force often times can. For instance, the various waves of endogenous violence in Europe, in particular from 1789 to 1917, have made the world a better place.

And as a corollary, exogenous force can work when there is a substantial, willing constituency, though best a majority, within a society for it. If not, its hard to spread religion, and the history of the growth of Islam itself is instructive.

I'd also point out that, though admittedly a contrarian view again as regards Afghanistan, the violence which preceded and accompanied Soviet involvement in Afghanistan was not purely exogenous, and in fact had a heavily local, and positive, character to it as well. And I can guarantee you the plight of women (and not just of women) was far better under Najibullah than it has been since, first under the warlords and then under the Taleban before reverting back to the warlords (with a mayor of Kabul installed by the Americans and Nato).

And I keep seeing Massoud mentioned hereabouts when we talk about the warlords, but he's really the romantic, European image of Afghanistan. The real image of what the warlord's rule looked like is not Massoud, but Hekmatyar. The Taleban need to be set side by side with Hekmatyar, not Massoud, who was not a Pathan but a Tadjik and certainly represented only a minority slice of Afghanistan, one which if under Pathan/Taleban rule would certainly suffer.

As for the history of Afghanistan and the various waves of unrest there, it starts well before the Brits and Scots arrived (and maybe I'll diary on the many stories about this episode I heard back then - suffice to say it doesn't resemble Kipling); Toynbee devotes much fascinating space to this part of the world in "A Study of History," a very instructive backdrop against which to describe the state of affairs in this very particular part of the world.


"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the "use of force" I was obviously not talking about revolutions, but organised exogenous military force. (Revolutions are only possible when there is an overwhelming, willing constituency, it's the sine qua non!)

There may have been a time when the situation of women was better under Najibullah, but that concerned how much of the territory for how long? And the whole point is that this was yet another invasion that had to pull out.

As for Massoud, note that in a comment above I asked if the Northern Alliance was any more tender with girls and women than the Taleban. (On a point of fact, Tajiks, according to Wikipedia, are the second ethnic group in Afghanistan, with 27% after the Pashtun (Pathan) with 42%).

For this diary, I chose only to mention the invasions of modern history. Of course there were many before.

Sorry, this is messy...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:41:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I thought you wrote this up really well, it certainly hits all the relevant points.


"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, but was referring to my comment...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 01:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry to be dense afew. Which comment?

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 05:03:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The one in which I said "this is a mess". It felt like a laundry list. (Actually because I was responding to your laundry list ;))

But I can only counter your central proposition, which is that the suffering of females in those regions (which would include "tribal" Pakistan) is so great that the use of force is justified, by saying that I don't believe it will work. Change has to come from within.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, my stuff is a mess too; I'm going to piece together some impressions and interpretations of history, twenty years removed, some filtered through a communist supporter I knew well in Mardan way back, pointing out in passing that there was indeed real support for Najobullah, it may have been minoritarian in large parts of the countryside, but it it wasn't nil.

I was obliquely pointing out that there was in fact a constituency for positive change a long time ago. Not sure of the potential now, because most of the reformers and supporters of modernization have been killed off, but thirty years ago this wasn't the case.

If you picture the way Nepal looked until not too long ago, Western tourists of an alternative type, locals vey tolerant of those...shall we say...alternative tourists traipsing around smoking alternative forms of cigarettes...a doddering, not particularly engaged in affairs of governance king...that's what Afghanistan was in the '60's and early '70's. It wasn't an Islamic fundamentalist koran thumping paradise fit for misogynists, though of course the "old ways" weren't unimportant for a large segment of the country. It's just that this large old-fashined segment was a mite bit more tolerant than it is now.

Then there was not one, but three coups from the 1970's, ending with Najibullah. These coups were not reactions to progress, but catalysts for it, including the first one  which was pretty much a palace coup, with one of the kings relatives explicitly taking over and turning the country into a republic, and he was not unpopular in the country by any means. As elsewhere in this part of the world (including Iran) there was also a strong and vibrant communist party, which of course the Americans didn't like...

The orientation of Afghanistan towards the Soviet Union began well before the coup which brought the Communists to power in Afghanistan. Before the communists took over, you can think of Afghanistan's relationship with the SU as something like that of India's - arms length, but definitely very friendly. Washington saw Afghanistan as in their informal orbit then before the communist coup much the same way they saw india.

Keep in mind in all this two things - US ally in the region Pakistan surrounded by at best aggresively neutral nations on all sides save a small border over the silk route to the PRC, and what's more, a large portion of historical Afghanistan (the one the Brits actually held on to in the "great game" you describe, eg the NWFP) under nominal (and in the case of the tribals, very nominal) Islamabad control.

The dynamic here is very simalar in my view to the dynamic happening at the same time in enighboring Iran s well described by Tariq Ali in his book Clash of the Fundamentalism, which the exception that unlike Iran, Afghanistan at the time didn't have a pro-Washington tyrant in place.

Long and short? Without Saudi and US, with decisiven support from PK, propping up an Islamist "resistance" to the Soviet "occupation" (and I do mean those quotation marks sarcastically) I'm relatively confident that today, we would in fact be seeing the positive effects of modernization in Afghanistan. It wouldn't be perfect, perhaps far from it, but I would note that the status of women in neighboring Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Tadjistan and Kirgizstan is quite different than in Afghanistan. To name but one measure of progress.

It's far too late for that now. The Americans, Pakistanis and Saudis succeeded. And today, only the Americans are having any second thoughts, and those only partially thought through...

 

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 09:04:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As Margaret  said.. a small group of people change a society.. and they can only do it with internal rebelion... this is how women got the sufrage here..and equal rights, and cahllenged the patriarchal society.. and how beating women in Spain is increasingly seen as soemthing "not good" by great swaths of the population.

But it is not the same someone bombing you to save  "woman".. than woman deciding to take a step ahead and be killed if necessary for a cause... it is the difference between good an evil.. if you ask me.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 01:35:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was not a conservitive corner.. it was all the agricultural country. and I made a mistake it was my grand gradn mother

Women married with cousins (forced, not really smei-forced, for sure).. all dressed in burka style, always with male outside the house  adn always subservent.

the only difference with the taleban areas were precisely on religious ground.

no army escort was needed, andthere were no pre-pubberty marriages (since it was religiously forbidden).

That was my point, if you take out the areas where taliban is stronger, and where religious hierarchical structures are dominant you have a very standard patriarchal society with patriarchal veto on matriarchal households.

I was in contact with a few.. my familiy.  But let me stress, in no way I am saying that this is general to all Afganisthan, there are broad areas of Afganistan, Pakistan and overall, the main cities, were women live in hell. though I would never advovate to bomb... after all only the existence of our prisons would make all the cultures of the world want to bomb us for our barbarism (it's a Levi-Strauss idea.. bomb our prisons).

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 01:24:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the "all the cultures of the world" woudl hate our prisons" was writeen from an African and South American perspectives actually..Muslim and christians countries have had prisons for a long time... and Eastern coutnires more recently.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 01:31:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't want to spam your diary as I did The3rdColumn's, but history indicates that you can pacify a country by force, if you use about 1 soldier per 50 inhabitants.
This means for Afghanistan about 600 000 soldiers, maybe more, if the tribal areas of Pakistan pose additional danger; so let's say a million.

Could NATO do this? Of course, but it would do great damage to our society. Will it happen? LOL. Sudan is even bigger than Afghanistan - so much for the people who believe the "rich nations" have responsibility to interfere in civil wars in other countries.

By the way if we are talking about orphans. The Iraqi Gov claims there are 5 million orphans in Iraq. That's about 25% of the population.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:36:31 AM EST
Posting comments that advance the discussion is not spamming!

history indicates that you can pacify a country by force

  1. What examples are you thinking of?
  2. What does "pacify" mean exactly?
  3. Did it bring about deep cultural changes?
  4. If the answer to 3. is "yes", how long did the changes take?


When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 11:41:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
afew:
f 4. If the answer to 3. is "yes", how long did the changes take?

From what I've read in the past, the required time is about 200 years, depending on how big a change you want to make. The big problem is that the changes seem just as likely to occur in your own society as in the society you're trying to change. basically you need to get past grandchildrens grandchildren to remove the memory of the initial invasion and memory of culture.

The only truely reliable way to chqange a society is for them to want to change themselves, and you can never guarantee that they will chose to change in the way that you want.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two centuries is about the time it took for Islam to get established in Afghanistan -- without, arguably, transforming all the pre-existing culture. So it sounds about right: 6, 7, 8 generations.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. There was study including all US nation building from Germany, Japan, Somalia, the several missions in Yugoslavia and I think some more.
  2. To stop them to be a major threat for others or parts of their own society.
  3. The only countries where this is long enough ago to judge are Germany and Japan. Both switched from highly militarised monarchistic orientated imperial culture to nearly pacifistic democracies. Even a millenium of enemyship between Germany and France could be turned into friendship. In former Yugoslavia I'm as well rather convinced, that there can be success. Muslims, orthodox Christians and catholics living there and have started genocides over another over a decade. There is a fragile peace now, but it will become a real peace in 20-50 years. It's not about stopping Afghans to be Muslims or having a clans structure, but just about evolving into a part of the civilised world.
  4. 1-2 generations.


Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in the case of Germany and Japan, it took a colossally destructive world war to fight them to a standstill, using carpet-bombing against Germany and nuclear weapons against Japan. Those are the most crushing military means used against any country in history, I think. And it might be argued that, though it did change modes of political power and expression of the national will in those two countries, many other cultural aspects were not changed at all. And did not France and Germany enter into a stable pact because they were weary of war?

I don't know much about Somalia, and I hope you're right about the future of former Yugoslavia, but we know from discussions here that your view of the usefulness of military intervention is far from shared by people of those countries.

The number of generations for lasting change, as ceebs suggests and I agree in other comments, is likely to be considerably higher than one or two.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somalia was one of the failed examples.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any war fought on the cheap is a failure.

And the same can be said of any war fought in denial of what war is really about: punitive action, killing and destroying.

The niceties - democracy, freedom and prosperity, doing good to the people you fought - only come later, if the victor is smart.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 12:50:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Further, one might very well argue that Germany and Japan fell in line (leaving aside the question of just how democratic Japan is, in the European sense of the term) in no small part because of the Big Red Neighbour. Having a common enemy to rally against is a powerful motivating factor. The problem is that in many, if not most, of the societies the US has been conquering over the past couple of decades, that common enemy isn't the Big Red, it's the USA. That's kinda counterproductive.

Additionally, I think that there is a case to be made that there is a qualitative difference between Germany and Japan - which were both highly centralised countries with very developed governments, good infrastructure, etc. - on one side, and most third-world countries - where these factors are notably lacking - on the other. I would think that such strong centralisation would make it easier to enforce a top-down change in the culture, because the bureaucrats and government officials (that are easy for a conqueror to replace quickly) play a comparatively bigger role in a centralised society.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe, but never a US nation building failed, when there were enough troops. There was a study, I can't find the link any more.
It may of course be, that only into those areas ever enough troops were deployed, in which there seemed to be potential for success. But against this speaks, that there was a study to find that out and otherwise it would have been common knowledge.

And when carpet-bombing helped in Germany and nuclear weapons helped in Japan, the solution is easy: Nuclear carpet-bombing in Afghanistan. Without humans left, there are no terrorists, who could attack us, no women, who could be treated bad, no orphans, nobody who could grow poppy.... the real all in one solution.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 01:58:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It may of course be, that only into those areas ever enough troops were deployed, in which there seemed to be potential for success. But against this speaks, that there was a study to find that out and otherwise it would have been common knowledge.

That there was a study is something I find entirely unimpressive. There's always 'a study' for everything. Some of them are good, some of them are hack jobs made by think tanks paid liars.

I would, however, propose that even if they did succeed in all the cases where they used enough troops, this may very well be because the only cases where they used enough troops were centralised countries - the Americans have an unfortunate tendency to not take military threats seriously unless they take the form of panzer divisions on an open field of battle.

If you first have to defeat the army of a modern state which has technological parity with yourself, on its own territory, you will already have enough troops at the start of the occupation, because otherwise you won't defeat them in the first place. The Americans' problem - well, one of their many problems - is that they think that they can transfer this logic to pre-modern states without technological parity. In other words, they think, based on their experience with modern states, that defeating the army is the hardest part, and if you can defeat the army, then you will have little trouble occupying the country.

This is silly, of course. And they really should know better, considering how badly they have gotten their asses kicked over the last half-century. But an integral part of their political culture seems to be an inability to admit mistakes - and the consequent inability to learn from them. That, by the way, is a feature of American democracy that Europe had better take care not to import.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:11:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would think that such strong centralisation would make it easier to enforce a top-down change in the culture, because the bureaucrats and government officials (that are easy for a conqueror to replace quickly) play a comparatively bigger role in a centralised society.

Makes me think of something Machiavelli wrote. He divides larger states (not city-states) into feudal societies with decentralised power and centralised empires. In a feudal society it is easy - especially for a foreigner with a decent army - to become the king, but hard to stay as king. The warlords will support whoever serves their interest for the moment. In centralised empires it is hard to become the king but once there you just take over the old power structure and rule. Except of course if you fire the old power structure, and put the soldiers out of work, but few are that crazy.

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 05:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I know the bombing of Cambodia and Vietnam was even more sever than the one in Germany.

The plural of anecdote is bullshit.
by generic on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 06:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
reference? bomb tonnage dropped does tend to be  something that has more than a touch of propaganda about it.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 06:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Know" was probably the wrong word. "Vaguely remember" would have been more fitting. After searching around for a bit I think I mixed it up with this

The Pentagon will gladly supply, on request, such information {10} as the quantity of ordnance expended in Indochina. From 1965 through 1969 this amounts to about four and a half million tons by aerial bombardment. This is nine times the tonnage of bombing in the entire Pacific theatre in the Second World War, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Next time I'll check my sources before posting...

The plural of anecdote is bullshit.

by generic on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 08:37:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but the targeting was really lousy. Lots of holes in the jungle.

Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
by Francois in Paris on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 12:39:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't generalise from Germany and Japan to the situation in Afghanistan. Germany and Japan were both countries with a strong national identity, a very specific ruling clique, and a well-defined pre-existing political structure. They weren't pacified so much as forced to surrender formally.

Afghanistan is barely a country. It hardly has a national identity, and it can't be made to surrender formally, because there's no single clique which can be forced to accept defeat on behalf of the population.

Even Yugoslavia is different, because it spent enough time as a Soviet vassal state to develop a central structure.

Pacifying Afghanistan is like trying to pacify an amoeba. There's no central point to hold onto, and without that political leverage it will always keep growing back at you from all directions.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:27:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tito's Yugoslavia was not a Soviet vassal state.
by Gag Halfrunt on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are very few examples from the last century where an imperial power successfully pacified a smaller country using military force.

The Age of Empire ended with the Victorians. Since then it's been much more common to set up client states by influencing elections and applying media and political pressure. Indirect military action (e.g. Nicaragua) has been tried too, but the outcome is rarely conclusive.

So military adventuring hasn't worked well. That doesn't mean it couldn't work in Afghanistan, but it would mean a draft in NATO, the complete decapitation of the Taleban hierarchy, and support from the surrounding 'Stans to make sure that the remaining survivors aren't given a safe haven.

None of these things will happen.

But the real problem is that strategically, the invasion has no point. Politically it looks like an example of the US deciding to throw a random country against the wall and getting its arse kicked instead - as it did in Vietnam. Morally, it's ridiculous - the most powerful country in the world bullying the smallest.

The bottom line for NATO is that even if all of the allies committed all of their resources to the war, it still wouldn't be won, and it would barely make an impression on the resources the US has available to it.

So squeaking from Gates about allies who don't want to commit is self-serving nonsense. If there's a solution at all - which there may not be now - it's certainly not a military one.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course what Gates is doing is nonsense.
Neither the US nor the Europeans are willing to send a fifth of the necessary share of troops to Afghanistan. Some more or less really don't play a big role. I guess if the NATO would really start e.g. to destroy poppy fields, in less than a year NATO would face so much resistance, that even the US would cut and run.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
Politically it looks like an example of the US deciding to throw a random country against the wall and getting its arse kicked instead - as it did in Vietnam.

If you look at history there probably arent two worse countries to throw against the wall than Vietnam and Afghanistan. Both have constantly been invaded and occupied for the last milenium, and have a history of resistance of any and all occupiers as part of their national myth.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 12:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The so-called Ledeen Doctrine?

National Review: Jonah Goldberg quoting Michael Ledeen in 2002
... here is the bedrock tenet of the Ledeen Doctrine in more or less his own words: "Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business." That's at least how I remember Michael phrasing it at a speech at the American Enterprise Institute about a decade ago


You're clearly a dangerous pinko commie pragmatist.
by Vagulus on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 06:24:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Afew,

I'm glad you've come up with your definition of the Afghanistan problem and have devoted a diary to the woes that afflict Afghanistan. Let me also say that I am with you in recognizing that there's a plethora of problems in Afhanistan and to a certain extent, I follow your premise that military solution is not a solution to a problem where the lives of human beings are at stake. I will go further -- to my mind, there is a chance that a military solution becomes its own stumbling block in the NATO allies' quest for a 'just and lasting peace' in the Afghan nation, not because NATO doesn't have the military might to apply unreasonable force but that NATO itself does not want to do it because NATO or at least most of its members do not believe that an all out military solution is THE ONLY solution.

While I hasten to support most of your views, a re-calibration is in order, and I would like to call your attention to the fact that at no time in my diary, In defence of NATO in Afghanistan  did I ever advance or support the US proposition for a troop increase in Afghanistan as the right thing to do.

In that context, you may take satisfaction that your tactical view that "Pouring in more troops won't work anyway." is generally in line with my own personally. Admittedly, it was something that the diary had chosen not to dwell on, an ommission that perhaps scuttled the more 'humanitarian' aspect of the NATO mission and something that I'd like to focus on here, which is to help the Afghan govt, who had formally asked for the assistance, in establishing stability in the country, or if you like, NATO's role which through ISAF is "to assist the Government of Afghanistan and the international community in maintaining security within its area of operation" and to support "the Government of Afghanistan in expanding its authority throughout the country, and in providing a safe and secure environment conducive to free and fair elections, the spread of the rule of law, and the reconstruction of the country."

Arguably, NATO's mission taken in that light may seem to be in total contradiction to what in reality is: a political-military force that when extended, essentially becomes a tool for war and this is precisely why the current NATO mission, in the words of its Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, ""... is one of the most challenging tasks NATO has ever taken on, but it is a critical contribution to international security..."

While we all deplore, and rightly so, the death toll on the Afghan population and the ravages that caused by a seemingly uncontrolled coalition led by US Enduring Freedom Operation forces, it is imperative that we delineate the true goals of NATO in Afghanistan from the military ambitions of America. It should be seen in the context UN mandate -- and not with a view to subservience to the US -- that's spelled out in NATO's engagement mission that the diary has taken on the defence of NATO in Afghanistan.

By way or reminder, NATO's 3-fold engagement (as stated in is website):

- through leadership of the UN-mandated International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), an international force of some 43,250 troops (including National Support Elements) that assists the Afghan authorities in extending and exercising its authority and influence across the country, creating the conditions for stabilisation and reconstruction;

- a Senior Civilian Representative, responsible for advancing the political-military aspects of the Alliance's commitment to the country, who works closely with ISAF, liaises with the Afghan government and other international organisations, and maintains contacts with neighbouring countries.

- a substantial programme of cooperation with Afghanistan, concentrating on defence reform, defence institution-building and the military aspects of security sector reform.

Insofar as the NATO assistance engagement is concerned, I believe NATO has not been remiss in its efforts to enforce the following ISAF tasks:  The conduct of stability and security operations Support to the Afghan National Army (ANA); Support to the Afghan government programmes to Disarm Illegally Armed Groups (DIAG); Support to the Afghan National Police (ANP), within means and capabilities.

Under the influence of NATO, Afghanistan's elected a government which has been having considerable difficulty bringing the disparate factions in the country together is now making every effort to be inclusive (the elected government is talking to the Taliban). True, there is still a long way to go but we cannot pooh pooh NATO's efforts of helping the government in place to reach out to the rest of the Afghan population, Taleban, warlords and ordinary Afghans alike.

We musn't forget too that ISAF provides the security blanket for international NGOs in place, part of ISAF tasks, to ensure that the environment is secure so that infrastructure can be built and the nation can develop and join the international community. The NGOs from all these nations are thus trying their darnest best to continue doing a job amidst the turbulences and the incessant infighting. The NGOs have gained milestones in the education, health and human rights sectors, in setting up the groundwork for a democratic Afghanistan -- one of the biggest accomplishments in that area was Afghanistan election wherein Afghan women participated!

These achievements cannot be belittled -- based on those alone, the fact that NATO's liaising with international NGOs has proved to be an incredibly huge step in the right direction for Afghanistan.

Having said that, I must agree with you and believe that the longer actual PEACE takes to arrive the more difficult providing security becomes. In this context, much depends and will depend on the government in Kabul. And this is perhaps where international pressure should be strongly applied.

I'm in agreement with you that the US has enormous influence over NATO and I don't see that being broken soon, but there must not be any confusion either: NATO IS a multi-nation organization and counts among its members, independent, strong-willed EU nations. Of late, this organization has become capable, effectively, of doing a balancing act that until today they have not done, i.e., providing that razor thin line equilibrium against the United States' general military doctrine of and demands for harsh punitive military actions.

We also cannot waylay the fact its member nations have increasingly become assertive and have started to show teeth: read Germany, and even France; France's token promise of troop support hinges on its own application doctrine in terms of military participation, i.e., "We'll do what we think is best and not because America think it ought to be done their way."

So to your assertion,

"So to this Afghanistan problem, the only solution I see is an orderly NATO withdrawal now, rather than an ignominious retreat later. If the US breaks its NATO toy as a result, too bad.",

it is my belief that it would be the height of cruelty for NATO to leave Afghanistan now because the bottom line is if NATO does that -- quit Afghanistan now and beat the drums of "retreat", there is no guarantee that America, left on its own, will not take an infinitely more violent step to finish off the Afghans.

(With regard to an attack on Saudi Arabia, I'm pretty sure, this is not at all in the NATO cards or at least not in the cards of NATO European nations but you did well to ask although I believe Americans will be in the best position to give you the answer to that.)


by The3rdColumn on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 02:00:12 PM EST
Meanwhile, am off now to a Valentine's Day dinner... Cheers and "happy love day" to one and all!
by The3rdColumn on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 02:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would humbly submit that America, Saudi Arabia and the Saudi American client state in Pakistan have already long ago killed off the Afghans.

What we are seeing today is simply the end game, played out among the dregs of what was once Afghan civil society. There is only so much of a window of opportunity for good to happen, in general, and cemetaries (and history itself in fact) are littered with the shards of glass of broken windows. In the case of Afghanistan, it has been killed off and it may be a century before the window of opportunity comes back.  

No good will come of US direct involvement in Afghanistan, in much the same way no good will come of their direct involvement in Iraq. It isn't that the American people couldn't effect positive change in Afghanistan, it is simply a fact that the governing elite in the US has no intention of doing so. Nato being shorthand for the US (and its decidely English poodle). And, as Jerome said upthread (and to paraphrase in my own way), the trick is how to get the hyperpower to realize that it has lost. And, perhaps, to hope that it takes too long to recognize this, and weakens itself beyond the tipping point and in so doing make the rest of us more secure.

The mistake you and others like you make in analyzing these interventions is that you take stated intentions as true intentions, in much the same way people often times anthropomorhize the intentions of a purring cat. Most of the time, the cat is not actually happy to see you; it wants you to feed it. Rambo did not embark on his adventure in Afghanistan because he wanted to help Afghans; he did so because he, too, had a rapacious appetite.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 10:29:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An I would humbly submit that the judgement call you made, to wit:

The mistake you and others like you make in analyzing these interventions is that you take stated intentions as true intentions,

is a gratuitous censure. Is it a reprobation against "me and others like me" for lacking in proper brain cells or for being naive at best? (But perhaps you are right!)

It clearly overlooks or refuses to even contemplate the possibility that the "analysis" (I'd rather call it a 'rough assessment') may have been made based on yardsticks: stated intentions were crosschecked against intentions achieved, the results were then marked success or failure.

Alright, call the process used very naive but this is no different from when a voter is called upon to vote for candidate running for re-election; the voter is expected to use his/her thinking neurons (or most of them) to pass judgement so one way of assessing whether the candidate's previous programme/political platform/stated intentions have been realised or not is by crosschecking the erstwhile stated intentions against the candidate's accomplishments or non-accomplishements.

The cat analogy is in my view is awkward. Even a wild alley cat will "purr up" to you if you show enough interest in it by giving it food and attention and care regularly; over time, it will warm up to you (although difficult to generalize). Obviously you will be required to put your heart and mind to winning its heart and mind.

(Not to worry, I may not agree with what you say but I will fight for your rigt to say it.)

by The3rdColumn on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 12:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I really have a hard time following you.

Suffice to say your take on the situation is so far at odds with my experience that there seems to be little from your point of view here that I can follow and make sense of, though I suspect if I were to see through the lens Washington or London or even official Ottawa would prefer, I would perhaps get it.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:12:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pray tell me, why exactly cannot you follow me? I will try to draw a simple very straight line. Re: "Suffice to say your take on the situation is so far at odds with my experience" I support NATO in Afghanistan because I believe they are succeeding despite overwhelming odds namely (but not necessarily in that order) -- critics at home (EU) and abroad, non-stop US bullying, opposing US and allies' battle/security/operational doctrines, insufficient troop number, unreliable govt in Kabul, etc, etc.
by The3rdColumn on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:30:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If however, the central of your remark is about my own remark, i.e., gratuitous censure, allow me to clarify: It is linked and is exclusive to the assumption/judgement call you made

The mistake you and others like you make in analyzing these interventions is that you take stated intentions as true intentions,

... that was what I tried to dispute and only that (plus the cat thinggy.)

by The3rdColumn on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:47:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, then.

I thought you actually believed that Nato had a mission in Afghanistan which involved bettering the lives of Afghans, and that this mission was something separable from US actual (as opposed to stated) aims.

I just find this hard to believe, that's all. And, if I could believe it, there would by now have been far more direct aid, tens of billions of it, and far less military combat intervention.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are a long series of underlying premises that I simply reject, I guess. Here are a few:

  1. Nato is something independent of US foreign policy aims rather than nearly wholly subservient to US foreign policy aims;

  2. Nato has a proper role to play in Afghanistan now that no one responsible for attacking the US in 2001 are in any way shape or form wards of, sponsored by or protected by an internationally recognized Afghan state;

  3. That Nato actually has a coherent mission in Afghanistan today to actually be succeeding at other than propping up a Kabul-centered authority of very limited nation-wide legitimacy;

  4. Even assuming Nato had a properly defined mission, it cannot possibly be furthering progress, via force, in a country where it (via the US) has done so much in its power to snuff out the preconditions for that progress. Hell, the donors can't even produce a proper fraction of the aid they promised, and yet we're talking about Nato military (and explicitly combat) missions? Progress under these conditions? No way.

I would further add that Nato in particular lacks proper authority of legitimacy in any long-term improvement of and progress in Afghanistan for the simple reason that the dominant Nato power (ie the US) is greatly responsible for the conditions which caused so much misery in Afghanistan in the first place, both directly (remember Stinger missiles?) and via proxy (first the so-called mujahideen fighters based largely in the NWFP, later via the PK ISI). I'm sure you're familiar with what Americans call blow-back. Lack of legitimacy is one element of it, and this applies just as much to Afghanistan and what has happened to it since the Soviet pull-out as to what happened in Iran in the 1970's. Whatever credit the US does get in the country is for trying to make amends for having helped fuck things up, irremediably it turns out, in the first place.

Note also that a large portion of Afghans (historical Afghans, not simply those who happen to live today within the borders on internationally-recoginzed Afghanistan note the Paktoonistan movement) live in PK and supply resources not just to opponents of US/Nato in Afghanistan but also to opponents of Islamabad.

Ultimately, there is a historical basis for the lack of connection on this issue we are having. I, very simply put, do not see the US, and via extention, as a good guy here, as relates to Afghanistan. Never was, still isn't. Better than the Taleban, objectively speaking, much better, if one accepts the premise that they are different. But this fact is quite hard to unbundle, given the US is a primary cause of the Taleban in much the same way Israel, arch-enemy of course of Hamas, was its original primary cause as well.

And you may not like the cat analogy, but I'm not entirely sure I'm making myself understood. Just because the US or Nato makes noise that it is doing something for some universal good does not mean that this is in fact what it is doing or even primarily intending to do. The US is, first and foremost, looking out for the US. Ascribing some higher goal to the US and to Nato, I think, is greatly mistaken.

But, to employ another analogy, you know, when humpty dumpty fell off the wall, all the kings horses and all of his men couldn't put him back together again. Especially since it was the king and his men who pushed humpty dumpty off the wall in the first place.
And, upon being interviewed from his deathbed, in the end humpty dumpty expressed very little by way of heartfelt appreciation for the attempt the king's horses and men made to re-assemble him. Quite the contrary, he was very much upset.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:57:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So to this Afghanistan problem, the only solution I see is an orderly NATO withdrawal now, rather than an ignominious retreat later. If the US breaks its NATO toy as a result, too bad.

An "ignominious retreat" may well be the result to be wished for. NATO sufficiently weakened, then just maybe Europe will start seeing the necessity of an European defence.

I would be kind of optimistic, were it not for the fact that Europe goes 1 step forward then 2 step backwards in terms of defence independence.

We do live depressing times...

by balbuz on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 04:58:51 PM EST
I very much agree!
European armies do not appear to be suited for the endless occupations of countries and Europe's security paradigm rightfully places military power as one of many other instruments of foreign policy. The truth is that there is an ever widening gap in the idea of "security" across the Atlantic.  

The lesson is that the invasion and endless occupations of countries is not the answer to the conditions that lead to many young Muslim men to take up Wahhabist extremism, nor does endless occupation provide a solution to addressing repressive patriarchal societies that abuse women and children.

Democracy and free societies cannot be spread out the barrel of a gun, require decades to be put into acceptance in some areas of the world, and must be accepted as legitimate by the target population. (Take a look at Russia.) So as long as the many in the Afghanistan population believe that repressive patriarchal life is acceptable and even part of religious belief, there can be little done to solve the core of the "Afghanistan problem" in the near future.

by euamerican on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 02:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would like to state a small degree of disagreement with your third point, "Problem Three: Washington." I agree that Washington is a big part of the problems of NATO, but wouldn't you also agree that the other NATO countries also have some responsibility? Europe is roughly the same size as the U.S., and could easily define a European defense policy that has nothing to do wih the U.S.

The decisions to continue to support NATO, to allow U.S. troops to remain on European soil 63 years after the end of the war, the willingness to play along with American policies regarding rendition, extradition, etc., and the unwillingness or inability to confront problems within Europe itself that can be approached with an army (Kosovo) are pretty clear signs that Europe is not really so unhappy with the way NATO is set up. It's not entirely America's fault, because Europe is acting as an enabler...

Overall I agree with you, though.

by asdf on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 at 10:01:28 PM EST
I don't disagree with you. Historically NATO has always been seen from Washington, as a US-led alliance, but European countries go along with that. And they could, as you say, easily define a European defense policy that has nothing to do wih the U.S.

I do make the point in the diary that that is what I think Europe should do.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 01:21:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you see it easier than it really is. There is no political unity in Europe, although we, and I mean really we here in this blog, are working on it.
Military is seen by many as a sign of national sovereignty. In eastern Europe, there are still scepticalness against Germany and as they have their sovereignty only since a short time they are reluctant to give more of it away (not to speak of UK), and they see a close relationship with the US as a counterbalance to the influence of major European countries. And despite all the talk of anti-americanism many people are very grateful to the US and don't want to disagree or disappoint them.
Finally the US can always switch the partner. GHWB promised Kohl leadership in partnership. Blair, Aznar and Berlusconi allied with GWB for the war in Iraq, and they all lost their office partially for that, but then Sarkozy in France offers an easy to go relationship with GWB. There are other reasons to vote for politicians then foreign policy, so this can't have always priority.

Kosovo is a very bad example. I think today it was false to use military. It would have been cheaper and with less cost of live and less international tensions, if one would have paid the neighbour countries of Serbia 100000 Euro per person, which they allow to immigrate from Kosovo. The problem would have been solved then. Now there are still serious problems.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 09:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that sponsoring large-scale, government-supported (and -encouraged) displacements of people would set a precedent that I am, to put it mildly, not sure we would want to set.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:11:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Government-supported (and -encouraged) displacements of people is in most of even modern history pretty much a standard procedure, and Kosovo was not at all large scale.
The precedent was that first time western nations used military enforcement to stop it, but as it was European backyard this precedent will not make too much impression on African or Asian Govs, because they will not think that the west is willing all times to interfere and rightly think, that e.g. a country like Sudan is way too big to repeat the treatment of tiny Serbia and Kosovo.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An armchair observer proposes: There will be no balance, peace, any solution whatsoever in Afghanistan until every single foreign military person (read: western) has left the country.

He also wonders: What is NATO's goal in Afghanistan? To prop up Karzai, evidently, or have I missed something. Any other goal might possibly be achieved only with a full-scale military operation, and what an unwelcome exercise that would turn out to be.

by Quentin on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 06:57:31 AM EST
NATO's main goal is to secure the area for an oil pipeline from central Asia to the ocean without crossing Russian or Chinese territory.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 09:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and the reason all talk of nation building, rights of women, ending terrorism, suppressing the opium trade (which is a mainstay of the global banking industry, so good luck!), blah, blah, blah,

does not signify.  

The Afghani war is part of the attempt by the US to take control of the world's oil through force of arms.  This policy was not set by the US Government, but by corporate elites, and is not subject to change.  

The reason it won't change is because it cannot.  The political economy of the US is predicated on endless growth made possible by ever-increasing use of resources and energy.  Without endless growth the US ceases to function.  This is already understood:  It is how money works;  it is how the economy is organized.  

But it is an appetite that cannot be sated.  

Tactics may change--in the face of failure--but the war itself will not.  Like the Iraqi war, it will continue as long as the US exists.  

by Gaianne on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 at 10:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All talk of pipelines in Afghanistan is profoundly ignorant of the reality of pipeline construction.

Pipeline economics - why the Afghan pipeline will NOT be built

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:00:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your arguments seem rather compelling, but then it remains the question why the US had already finish plans for the war in Afghanistan before 9/11. Or do you think the US has a finished plan to attack just any country in the world.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
do you think the US has a finished plan to attack just any country in the world.

Isn't it common knowledge that that the military for most countries that pretend a global reach do this.

From