European Tribune

ET Future: 1. Wicked Problems

by Sven Triloqvist
Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:26:45 AM EST

I hope to have a bit more time during the Spring to tackle some of the possibilities that ET has for development. So this is the first of a series of diaries, in which my amateur qualifications will be quickly revealed. But I wish to get you all thinking about organizations of the future.

Future diaries will include Self-Organizing Systems, P2P networks, Developments in Collaborative Software (or Groupware) and Open Source. I'll add more when I see how the debate evolves. Maybe this will get TBG to post his Copyright diary <hint hint>

I start off with problem solving.


The Swedish Morphological Society promotes the use of General Morphological Analysis (GMA) in striving to represent a total problem space. It is useful in confronting wicked problems

This is a typical tame problem
  • has a relatively well-defined and stable problem statement.
  • has a definite stopping point, i.e. we know when the solution or a solution is reached.
  • has a solution which can be objectively evaluated as being right or wrong.
  • belongs to a class of similar problems which can be solved in a similar manner.
  • has solutions which can be tried and abandoned.

We are certainly facing some wicked problems in the outside world. They cannot be solved as tame problems. And we have a few of our own: How do we sustain a community long-term in thoughtful debate? How do we turn consensus into action? How do we collaborate?

<"The classical systems approach ... is based on the assumption that a planning project can be organized into distinct phases: 'understand the problems', 'gather information,' 'synthesize information and wait for the creative leap,' 'work out solutions' and the like. For wicked problems, however, this type of scheme does not work. One cannot understand the problem without knowing about its context; one cannot meaningfully search for information without the orientation of a solution concept; one cannot first understand, then solve."

Collaboration is not a new problem. We've been doing it for eons. Cooperation has always been an internal feature of communities, both location-based/agricultural and resource-based/hunter-gatherer. But competition has also been a feature - between communities and within an ecosystem. And we have had 400 years of `joint stock companies' that have reinforced the idea that only competition can make you - the lucky individual - happy. That has to stop now that we are beginning to understand that we are all in one big community called the human race and in one big ecosystem called Planet Earth. We can no longer compete. We must collaborate, with everyone and everything.

<Here are some wicked problems

  • How should we fight the "War on Terrorism?"
  • How do we get genuine democracies to emerge from authoritarian regimes?
  • What is a good national immigration policy?
  • How should scientific and technological development be governed?
  • How should we deal with crime and violence in our schools?
  • How should our organisation develop in the face of an increasingly uncertain future?

Online collaboration is a new problem born of the non-linear tools that we find ourselves now holding. These tools put the focus on process rather than control. Self-organized (horizontal) organizations have several advantages over hierarchical (vertical) organizations: flexibility, speed, individual empowerment, robustness. They also tend to massive duplication (redundancy), like that ultimate self-organized system, the brain.

Massive duplication in organizations is anathema to cost-cutting lawyers and economists, but less so to diligent engineers. Duplication is only relevant in control-driven high transaction cost organizations. Where transaction costs are minimal - such as within ET - duplication is a feature not a bug. There IS safety in numbers.

So what will we use our numbers for?

1. There is no definite formulation of a wicked problem.

  1. Wicked problems have no stopping rules.

  2. Solutions to wicked problems are not true-or-false, but better or worse.

  3. There is no immediate and no ultimate test of a solution to a wicked problem.

  4. Every solution to a wicked problem is a "one-shot operation"; because there is no opportunity to learn by trial-and-error, every attempt counts significantly.

  5. Wicked problems do not have an enumerable (or an exhaustively describable) set of potential solutions, nor is there a well-described set of permissible operations that may be incorporated into the plan.

  6. Every wicked problem is essentially unique.

  7. Every wicked problem can be considered to be a symptom of another [wicked] problem.

  8. The causes of a wicked problem can be explained in numerous ways. The choice of explanation determines the nature of the problem's resolution.

  9. [With wicked problems,] the planner has no right to be wrong.

Wicked problem-solving sounds like a tall order. Make mine a G+T.

Tackling wicked problems
  • accommodate multiple alternative perspectives rather than prescribe single solutions
  • function through group interaction and iteration rather than back office calculations
  • generate ownership of the problem formulation through transparency
  • facilitate a graphical (visual) representation for the systematic, group exploration of a solution space
  • focus on relationships between discrete alternatives rather than continuous variables
  • concentrate on possibility rather than probability

Let's have a look at a different, but related approach to wicked problems and how we might be able to intervene...

12 Leverage Points

The twelve leverage points to intervene in a system were proposed by Donella Meadows, a scientist concerned with the environment. The leverage points, first published in 1997, were inspired by her attendance at a NAFTA meeting in the early 1990s where she realized that a very large new system was being proposed but the handles to control it were very small.
Meadows, who worked in the field of systems analysis, proposed a scale of places to intervene in a system. Awareness and manipulation of these levers is an aspect of self-organization and can lead to collective intelligence.
Her observations are often cited in energy economics, green economics and human development theory.

I wish to quote these 12 leverages more or less in full (in increasing order of effectiveness). They are all illustrated by the concept of a lake:

12. Constants, parameters, numbers (such as subsidies, taxes, standards)
Parameters are points of lowest leverage effects. Though they are the most clearly perceived among all leverages, they rarely change behaviors and therefore have little long-term effect.

For example, climate parameters may not be changed easily (the amount of rain, the evapotranspiration rate, the temperature of the water), but they are the ones people think of first (they remember that in their youth, it was certainly raining more). These parameters are indeed very important. But even if changed (improvement of upper river stream to canalize incoming water), they will not change behavior much (the debit will probably not dramatically increase).

11. The size of buffers and other stabilizing stocks, relative to their flows
A buffer's ability to stabilize a system is important when the stock amount is much higher than the potential amount of inflows or outflows. In the lake, the water is the buffer: if there's a lot more of it than inflow/outflow, the system stays stable.

For example, the inhabitants are worried the lake fish might die as a consequence of hot water release directly in the lake without any previous cooling off.
However, the water in the lake has a large heat capacity, so it's a strong thermic buffer. Provided the release is done at low enough depth, under the thermocline, and the lake volume is big enough, the buffering capacity of the water might prevent any extinction from excess temperature.
Buffers can improve a system, but they are often physical entities whose size is critical and can't be changed easily.

10. The structure of material stocks and flows (such as transport network, population age structures)
A system's structure may have enormous effect on operations, but may be difficult or prohibitively expensive to change. Fluctuations, limitations, and bottlenecks may be easier to address.

For example, the inhabitants are worried about their lake getting polluted, as the industry releases chemicals pollutants directly in the water without any previous treatment. The system might need the used water to be diverted to a waste water treatment plant, but this requires rebuilding the underground used water system (which could be quite expensive).

9. The length of delays, relative to the rate of system changes
Information received too quickly or too late can cause over- or underreaction, even oscillations.

For example, the city council is considering building the waste water treatment plant. However, the plant will take 5 years to be built, and will last about 30 years. The first delay will prevent the water being cleaned up within the first 5 years, while the second delay will make it impossible to build a plant with exactly the right capacity.

8. The strength of negative feedback loops, relative to the effect they are trying to correct against
A negative feedback loop slows down a process, tending to promote stability (stagnation). The loop will keep the stock near the goal, thanks to parameters, accuracy and speed of information feedback, and size of correcting flows.

For example, one way to avoid the lake getting more and more polluted might be through setting up an additional tax, relative to the amount and the degree of the water released by the industrial plant. The tax might lead the industry to reduce its releases.

7. The gain around driving positive feedback loops
A positive feedback loop speeds up a process. Meadows indicates that in most cases, it is preferable to slow down a positive loop, rather than speeding up a negative one.

The eutrophication of a lake is a typical feedback loop that goes wild. In a eutrophic lake (which means well-nourished), lots of life can be supported (fish included).
An increase of nutrients will lead to an increase of productivity, growth of phytoplankton first, using up as much nutrients as possible, followed by growth of zooplankton, feeding up on the first ones, and increase of fish populations. The more nutrients available there is, the more productivity is increased. As plankton organisms die, they fall at the bottom of the lake, where their matter is degraded by decomposers.
However, this degradation uses up available oxygen, and in the presence of huge amounts of organic matter to degrade, the medium progressively becomes anoxic (there is no more oxygen available). Upon time, all oxygen-dependent life dies, and the lake becomes a smelly anoxic place where no life can be supported (in particular no fish).

6. The structure of information flow (who does and does not have access to what kinds of information)
Information flow is neither a parameter, nor a reinforcing or slowing loop, but a loop that delivers new information. It is cheaper and easier than changing structure.

For example, a monthly public report of water pollution level, especially nearby the industrial release, could have a lot of effect on people's opinions regarding the industry, and lead to changes in the waste water level of pollution.

5. The rules of the system (such as incentives, punishment, constraints)
Pay attention to rules, and to who makes them.

For example, a strengthening of the law related to chemicals release limits, or an increase of the tax amount for any water containing a given pollutant, will have a very strong effect on the lake water quality.

4. The power to add, change, evolve, or self-organize system structure
Self-organization describes a system's ability to change itself by creating new structures, adding new negative and positive feedback loops, promoting new information flows, or making new rules.

For example, microorganisms have the ability to not only change to fit their new polluted environment, but also to undergo an evolution that make them able to biodegrade or bioaccumulate chemical pollutants. This capacity of part of the system to participate to its own eco-evolution is a major leverage for change

3. The goal of the system
Changes every item listed above: parameters, feedback loops, information and self-organisation.

A city council decision might be to change the goal of the lake from making it a free facility for public and private global use, to a more touristic oriented facility or a conservation area. That goal change will effect several of the above leverages : information on water quality will become mandatory and legal punishments will be set for any illegal polluted effluent.

2. The mindset or paradigm that the system -- its goals, structure, rules, delays, parameters -- arises out of
A society paradigm is an idea, an unstated assumption that everyone shares, thoughts, or states of thoughts that are sources of systems. Paradigms are very hard to change, but there are no limits to paradigm change. Meadows indicates paradigms might be changed by repeatedly and consistently pointing out anomalies and failures to those with open minds.

A current paradigm is "Nature is a stock of resources to be converted to human purpose". What might happen to the lake were this collective idea changed ?

1. The power to transcend paradigms
Transcending paradigms may go beyond challenging fundamental assumptions, into the realm of changing the values and priorities that lead to the assumptions, and being able to choose among value sets at will.

Many today see Nature as a stock of resources to be converted to human purpose. Many Native Americans see Nature as a living god, to be loved, worshipped, and lived with. These views are incompatible, but perhaps another viewpoint could incorporate them both, along with others.

My wish with this first diary was to set out some basic positions as the starting point for a debate about how we could and should organize. The diary is already quite long, so I'll just leave you with a couple of excellent connections:

The Cluetrain Manifesto of 1999 lists 95 theses about wicked problems seen from a corporate POV.

The excellent resource on cooperatives at the International Cooperative Alliance offers some practical information as well as guiding principles. My great thanks to the Man from Lyon for turning me on to this.

Have at it...

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Wicked problem-solving is what governments should be doing. That is what we give them their remit for. But they insist on doing the classical, in the forlorn hope that we still live in a linear controllable world. We don't.

Wicked problem-solving has actually been around for a long time. It's called policymaking vision and diplomacy. Europe has been quite good at these, at times.  European diplomacy has usually failed by a) resorting to guns as a result of diplomatic escalation or b) being threatened by imminent violence. I suppose that, as a solution, b) is envitable.

But imho a) is the result of classical problem-solving.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 08:41:29 AM EST
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 12:18:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Feel free ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 12:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... I wouldn' had said nuffin, Guv'na.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:09:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another way to describe this "policymaking and skilled diplomacy" is "intuition".
Can't be rigorously defined, so the very idea of it pisses off the authoritarians and the control freaks. But a non-rigorous description might resemble a process that takes place under the surface in the human brain that resembles GMA-
Intuition is a way to organize (incomplete)data to map out relationships.
Finding a better way without having all the data. Since, in this non-linear world we will NEVER have all the data.  

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 11:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Major Excellent, Sven.  I need time to let it all sink in.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 11:42:46 AM EST
No problem, and thanks. I am not expecting a lot of comments now - but when we get down to details.... ;-)

I am just trying to start a ball rolling, because I believe we have enough skills here to produce some real collaborative action plans - maybe  a year down the line.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 11:49:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Similarly, need time for this one to stew, (when I'm not writing a diary myself (I know, don't injure yourself with shock))

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 12:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should have credited Horst Rittel and M. Webber for the original expression of wicked problems - out of UCal, Berkeley CA, at the beginning of the Seventies.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 11:54:56 AM EST
I haven't yet seen where it separates from Cybernetics or Sytemics... but I like the "wicked" part :-)

This one will need a bit of reading on my behalf, before getting right into...!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 12:50:27 PM EST
Great diary Sven - like others here I'm going to have to give this one time - something I regrettably have little of right now.  

I suppose the "ET community" could be the metaphorical lake of your examples, which raises a lot of questions about what is it FOR, is it primarily about relationships (virtual and real), campaigns, ideas, issues, self education, fun, or self-expression almost as an end in itself.  

It is certainly ever changing, with people coming and going, and new themes emerging, although as I have only been here for 2/3 months I suspect there is also a huge amount of repetition and redundancy that I am only dimly aware of.  Every time I write on something I discover afterwards that someone else has done it better - but does that ultimately matter?

I've never really liked the idea of an exclusively personal blog - with little readership or interaction - which seems to be a bit of a vanity project.  But the ebb and flow here, the arguments, rows, even what I feel are sometimes very constricting mindsets are what any real community is about.

So I don't know what "problem" you are trying to solve. E.g. is it:

  1. How can ET become bigger and more widely read
  2. How can we keep the occasional flame wars under control and improve our conflict resolution processes?
  3. How can ET become more influential in the real world?
  4. How can we use technology more effectively to support our work?
  5. How can we improve the functionality, accessibility, ease of use and aesthetically pleasing look and feel of the site?
  6.  How can we collaborate more effectively on specific projects - e.g. Stop Blair - I thought that was rather impressive actually
  7. How can we increase our real world interactions and collaborations
  8.  How can we develop the ET "brand" and promote it more effectively in the Blogosphere and even as an alternative to MSM
  9. How can we generate some funds so that ET has an improved technical platform to run on
  10.  Can we even define what ET is about, and do we want to?

I'm traditional enough to think that even wicked problem solving has to begin somewhere, and making a first order attempt to define and achieve consensus on the problem is not a bad place to start!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:23:23 PM EST
You mean, how can the "Village ET" can achieve to a "City ET" status ? :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or how can the village idiots become city sages????::-)

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Join the right political party?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think one of the strengths of ET (and of the StopBlair campaign) is that it is not party political, although many ET members may indeed also be members of various parties.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:30:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is an important point and possibly why we do not need an internal definiton of ET.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1 - 9 absolutely. 10 - well people have tried, but so far it hasn't led to traction. There is only one reason why 10 needs to be defined and that is to open a channel to the RW (or at least the media) to ease the passage of regular actions on our part. Journalists need hooks and they need reliability in a source. We need a soundbite story for them.

For ourselves, ET is still evolving. Can we define it? Do we need to define it? It is what it is, and the less it is defined, the easier it is for a lot of views to identify with it.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I must say I'm a bit uneasy about present "definitions" for the media - i.e. centre left (of what?), progressive (anyone know any self-defined regressives?), run by American libruls or a French Banker named Jerome who didn't lose Billions...yet.  Also it might help MSM campaigns if frontpagers could sign themselves as Assistant Editors  of the European Tribune when writing Letters to the Editor etc. - or Industry Editor, Spanish Editor, Literary Editor, Eastern European Editor - you know what I mean.  We could have some fun dreaming up titles for frontpagers - how about Colman for Shorts Editor?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:41:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lest confusion reign, I meant Short Stories Editor

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Glad you cleared that up.

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 04:39:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
Also it might help MSM campaigns if frontpagers could sign themselves as Assistant Editors  of the European Tribune when writing Letters to the Editor etc. - or Industry Editor, Spanish Editor, Literary Editor, Eastern European Editor - you know what I mean.  We could have some fun dreaming up titles for frontpagers

Big discussion on that some 1.5 years back, several people discussed the idea in different diaries; the idea didn't float in the end. Perhaps when ET has more participants - but then we enter the chicken and egg world again. What's it worth, I'm still all for spoke-persons at Special Interest categories who'd represent ET in the press.

by Nomad on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. Quite. What is ET's problem? An objective needs agreement before any "how" to follow. Perhaps a poll, leading with "Destroying Blair's Career," suffices to proceed -- (a) identifying "leverage points" including real, live sympathetic agents, "collaborators," within Labor and even former Blair admin (b) task assignment (c) identifying "buffers" or bottlenecks (d) measuring outcomes, e.g. ET feedback, media feedback, to LTE, Petition, extraordinary events. Mo' betta ET technology acquisition ought be the slightest concern. Never underestimate the telephone.

Elaborate rubrics like the "wicked problem" depress me. Such schema are nearly always designed by consultants to bill hours against a description of existing logistics. With powerpoint. Consultants who failed kindergarten, where others learned to solve Big Problems in small parts.

oh. poop.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee (pbing@estudioinc.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:27:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... discourse presupposes a discourse about the definition that is broader and more encompassing than the sum of the discourses taking place in the community ...

... but if we knew how to have such a broader, more encompassing discourse, we would certainly have it about something of more interest than defining the purpose of this community of discourse.

A Pair of Docks, I believe.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 09:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Much food for thought here, Sven. Let me do my homework before I comment, but I am VERY interested in this approach to problem solving.
Without being overly melodramatic, I think the central paradigm shift that will need to occur if the fruit flies in the bottle of culture medium are to think their way out of their coming demise relates to cooperation as a central value, and systems that incorporate same.
Ms. Meadows picked a good illustration in her lake analogy.
It's not quite as unflattering as my fruit fly analogy- We are indeed denziens of a rapidly polluting lake- it's appropriate.  

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:40:16 PM EST
Huh, been awhile since IBIS, et.al., came up on the old radar.  Need some time to plow through my files and refresh memory.  

IIRC, the Santa Fe Institute did some nibbling around the edges of the Wicked Problems problem, more by implication than directly.

But I'll have to look.


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:54:12 PM EST
If we're going to be thinking like this, some more points to consider:

Any rational management strategy can be shown to be successful.

Any rational management strategy can also be shown to be unsuccessful.

Points of leverage which are discussed by management strategists are rarely the ones that actually matter.

Most of what matters goes on under the level of conscious awareness.

Success is most likely when unconscious motivations are healthy, and least likely when they're dysfunctional.

You cannot change motivations by implementing a new strategy. (Although you can sometimes mitigate the effects of dysfunction.)

You can change motivations by redefining relationships.

Decentralisation is one example of redefining relationships, but if the quality of the relationships is dysfunctional, it's no more, or less, likely to create a positive outcome than any other strategy.

Nothing matters as much as the quality of the relationships which are modelled between all participants. Bottom-up organisation can sometimes break an institutional deadlock which is based on abusive relationship patterns.

But it doesn't guarantee anything of itself - as the constant flame wars on any number of newsgroups and mailing lists prove.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:25:02 PM EST
And yet a NZ former leadership consultant friend of mine has been running Open Space 'conferences' and workshops for companies for a couple of years now in Finland, with great and lasting success.

Open Space events (in his version, which is the only one I have seen in action) are almost entirely self-organising. Anyone in the company can attend. The agenda is decided by all participants at the beginning of the meeting. Then people are free to coalesce as working groups around each part of the agenda (with sufficiently similar suggestions merged into one group). People are free any time to change group. The groups come together to pool their recommendations to conclude the workshop.

It does work. People do feel empowered. The quality of solutions has been highly appreciated at all levels of the company structure.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:50:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well yes, as I said. Any solution can be proved to work.

Any solution can also be proved not to work.

And in this case, providing 'quality solutions' is hardly the same as changing the entire company experience from the bottom up.

The existing company structure - shareholders, employees, management and so on - isn't going to be altered by these workshops.

You're doing exactly what management consultants do the world over - often very lucratively, which is offering a 'solution' which changes relationships in relatively superficial ways, explicitly to maximise utility, while leaving the core structure unchanged.

I can guarantee that these workshops don't mean that people on the shop floor or office floor will suddenly find themselves earning a board-level salary - even if some of their decision making and creativity has an influence at board level.

Currently the only place you find true bottom-up organisation is in worker's co-ops - which are hardly a new idea, and which are based on a model which most businesses wouldn't want to touch with a twenty foot pole.

If you really want to be revolutionary instead of just tinkering around the edges, you have to understand that money is information. It makes no sense to support open access to media without also supporting open access to money.

Most economists heads' will explode if you suggest this to them. But you cannot have a true bottom-up organisation which doesn't also share income and profit equitably - not just in the sense of remuneration, but also in the sense of having resources to develop new ideas.

In the kind of model your friend is selling, my guess is that all you're really getting is some high quality brainstorming, while budgets and overall project management are still closely controlled centrally - which is not really self-organisation at all in any honest sense.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:25:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Currently the only place you find true bottom-up organisation is in worker's co-ops - which are hardly a new idea, and which are based on a model which most businesses wouldn't want to touch with a twenty foot pole.
Cruise around Venezuela analysis
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/
for an interesting look at widespread use of worker's co-ops.

I think you're right about the consultant's typical product being incapable of producing deep change- in fact, not intended to. Nonetheless, GMA appears to be a powerful tool, and we may have to settle for a piece of the cake, for now,instead of the whole thing.
Teach the method,--and they might apply it to the real problems.

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 11:28:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are partly right. This is not a revolution. Yet. But it is a start.

The process of change has begun. A couple of examples: The Laurea polytechnic schools in Helsinki are passing on these new ideas to the next generation. Helsinki Living Labs are developing and using new methods to involve the end-user.


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:25:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting diary. I look forward to the next part.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:21:53 PM EST
valiant stride into where angels fear to tread!

what are ET's fortes?

  1. education and debunking, reverse-engineering propaganda, largely of a financial nature, with divers sociopolitical ramifications.

  2. burning hot topics dissected daily, even hourly, seen through eyes trained to pattern recognition, and minds with keen bullshit antennae.

  3. latest energy offerings and solutions, education on the peak oil phenomenon, buttressed with extensive experience, both theoretic and practical.

  4. mutual recognition and support on many levels, from personal tales of woe and group-hug empathy, to provision of a safe place to rant amongst progressive, rigorous-minded companions.

  5. entertainment, wit'n'whimsy, miscellaneous oddities, spontaneous offerings of bizarre and charming anecdotes, reflections, obsessions, plans, hopes and dreams.

  6. clearing house for pooling of ideas, snippets from different media inlets tossed into a soup of commentary for group digestion and assimilation.

  7. dynamite photoblog.

it's almost a e-zine!

good luck branding that puppy.

job offer for agony aunt!

i don't see any shortcuts to influence yet, more like a gradual raising of consciousness, skill and range, with a continuing ahead-of-the-curve appreciation of how much our responsibly tackling the global energy challenges facing us will affect our future, and how all humanity is connected.

i foresee a growing readership, with unpredictable results politically.

stop blair has been eye-opening, though i sense it's much easier to get attention slagging off and stymying someone famous, than to draft a convincing 'elegant-energise europe' manifesto, or an open-source euro constitution seedball, though there's some inspiring hiving happening here towards those goals.

boning up here on all the background context to daily events is the best homework i ever had.

summed up: ET is a journey that hasn't made up its mind about destination, cuz it's fun just to see the new sights and be out going somewhere new in amusingly constructive company...

nice one, me duck!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 09:12:27 PM EST
Great summary of the positives, Melo, but who is going to be brave enough to enumerate the negatives, because that is where the greatest room for improvement and opportunities for development lie.

Let me start with one.

"ET doesn't have a well developed conflict resolution process"

Discuss.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 05:41:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Works reasonably well so far, though I'm sure there's room for improvement.

Care to give the world an example where it hasn't worked well in your opinion?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 05:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure many of us can.  But I want to focus on the process rather than on the specifics of any dispute.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 05:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite right!
I wasn't making a "witted" remark on my precedent post with the village/city analogy...
Up to now, it seems that ET works "as if" a village community where most knows about the others !
We don't have yet the city capacity (called by Sven the "open" feature) to link with strangers ("in" ET, most linking with own relationship via blogworld or else) through a meta "vison" (bad joke, sorry) on EU construction and developments.
In a city, it's the immigration with citizenship goal that keeps the evolution and progress moving. Some redundancy  must be allowed for it (newcomers not always going in historical archives) as it allows for fresh viewpoints!

Now what are the features that gives a city it's attractiveness ? Wealth, security, progress, discovery, etc... Are there "representatives" of the "obscure and grade-less" so that it doesn't turn into a inscrutable mess in a "brouhaha" of posts (like some other site). How do we gather speed and would we allow changes from the "founding fathers" viewpoints ?

Before getting on the "optimisation" subject, some open debates on the ends might help for the means... ? As the petition might have brought here new voices, not always as dedicated or "data" ware the those who dwells regularly ?

Or do we consider ET as a gathering of commissions debating on given subjects ? (one not excluding the other)!

Just a lone viewpoint from where I stand (not very high), but on most subjects I believe I'm representative of the "mean" population of the EU, wanting to move, but not knowing really how (out of my specificities )... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The question is not about numbers, but about discourse quality and interconnectedness, and then the audience. IMO quite a small group of people can do quality 'think-tank', if there is a multidisciplinary approach (ie problem interconnectedness). Huge numbers can actually lead to a drop in quality through system feedback. In my own experience, seven people is an ideal brainstorming and decision group. Larger than 7, and there start to emerge factions.

But ET's problem is not quality discourse - it's audience, and access to audience. The organic nature of our discussions (an ecosystem of thought, hopefully) already follows the General Morphological Analysis model at the input stage. What we haven't done yet is apply the same methodology to the output stage.

That is what I hope to cover in future diaries in this series. First I wanted to set out a different way of thinking about problems to see if it has any resonance here.

My next diary will probably be a description of Self-Organizing Systems (or SOS), which early ETers have already had an earful of from me - but a lot of newer members have not yet been exposed to. SOS somehow intrudes into most of my RW projects and is one of my principle interests. And also the reason I have a couple of RW projects with other ETers who share this interest.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 08:28:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have any insights into graphical tools for informal systems analysis? Something to help illustrate where the influences and loops are - I'm thinking along the lines of the diagrams Venge talks about in The Fifth Discipline, if you're familiar with that.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 11:46:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Peter Senge?

I don't have any insights into graphical tools, because I don't see how they could exist for systems thinking on dynamic wholes. There's this terrible tendency with graphical tools to limit things to discrete interconnected boxes which then igore what is happening between and around the boxes. Organization charts of any kind are IMO the devil's work.

However there is a simple free download program (also for macs) called NetLogo , that I've mentioned before. I have never had the time to learn the Java subset associated with it, even though it is pretty simple.

Now if someone came up with a 3 dimensional version with a much larger event space, and of course more rapid iterations - all on the desktop - then maybe I would learn.

These kind of self-organizing system modellers, with agents and patches etc, at least do show the interdependence of objects and their attributes, even if it is rather rough granular.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Peter Senge?

Eh, yes. White text on gold isn't all that readable in half-light!

<exasperated>You don't like graphical approaches and your diary is referencing an n-dimensional matrix approach??</exasperated>

By graphical I meant shapes and things rather than in the computer sense.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:33:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Go out into your garden. All the answers are there.

I use graphical approaches for representing views of things that can be examined as discrete parts of a system.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:41:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I use graphical approaches for representing views of things that can be examined as discrete parts of a system.

Such as?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Machinery, organizations predefined in boxes, logistics systems, programming, decision structures (in hierarchical organizations) etc.

I'm just waiting for someone to invent graphical liquidity.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:54:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm just waiting for someone to invent graphical liquidity.

Why would anyone? All they'll get is sarcasm.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hasn't it been invented alredy?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Closer to the truth than you might think ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Go out into your garden. All the answers are there.

Why would I have to go out there? How will an n-dimensional matrix help me more than a collection of boxes and lines?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 12:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you understand the principles of cellular growth, it might help you. Gardens are very good for that.

But if you sincerely believe that a bunch of cells on the North side of a tree can decide to have a new branch on the south side, lower down, then I am afraid you are beyond hope.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't be silly. Everyone knows that the tree fairy makes those decisions.

I note that you're capable of trying to insult me but not capable of explaining why lots of boxes are intrinsically better than diagrams.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
boxes and diagrams? They are both part of the same problem - an exclusionary view of systems.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:33:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Recognise this?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:38:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Axonometric Lego

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that would be inappropriate diagrams: my original question was intended to discover whether you knew of more appropriate ones. Clearly not.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obviously not since I already said that i don't think they exist.

BTW I was not insulting you, I was simply incapable of conveying the tone of voice - which was that of a slightly hysterical maiden aunt Salvation Army majorette.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not n-dimensional at all. It is a lot of simple 3D local interactions happening simultaneously that, over time, increase the specialization of some of the units, and may also cause them to migrate. Ultimately complex, but by that time the complexity is irrelevant: the process has eventually produced a beautiful thing - a tree. Discrete too.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, a cellular-based modelling approach might work very well for a tree, so long as you can take into account ambient effects like chemical, electromagnetic and gravitational gradients and the assorted physical forces involved. The clue was in cellular.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:37:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just as it is with the brain and the biochemical metaprogramming that I keep mentioning.

3D dimensional cellular models was what I suggested to you in the first place. Just that I have never seen one for a laptop.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 01:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FYI
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 02:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good good good ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 02:26:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Damn you 3-dimensional bloggers - you've pushed the text way off screen!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a worm in every apple, a snake behind each tree...

fair point frank!

before accepting your challenge, i'd like to thankyou for all the pith you have added to ET with your diaries and comments, you fit here really well, imho.

ET is a microcosm, so inevitably the usual suspects when it comes to 'agents provocateurs' show up and cut through the sometimes schmoozy harmony conjured here, spirituality/religion being the chief culprit, sigh, plus ca change...

in retrospect, it made ET more real than if it had not attempted such thorny areas, however it revealed some interesting fault lines that caused the sense of common purpose to buckle briefly.

the lesson i draw from that is that some subjects are too personal for group blogging, (and don't lend themselves to languaging) and that's cool in some ways, because knowing that now, we can skirt those issues so we don't waste time on futile friction, meanwhile continuing  to mature our communication skills on equally important matters we can enlighten ourselves and each other on, and actually enjoy doing so, strange concept...

many loops later, perhaps there will be the capacity to navigate any thing at all...'cept astrology, natch!

negative?, not really, just absence yet of positive in that area, no biggie, when there's so much else to focus on.

compared to my laundry list in the post above, small spuds indeed.

dos centesimos

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 11:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for your kind words, Melo. Glad to see your back and in fine form.  I'm afraid I still have my doubts about "fitting in" here - I seem to be arguing the contrarian case too often for comfort or enjoyment.  But at the moment I'm too busy on another project to spend more than a few minutes here  - just a quick perusal whenever I need a break - so its not an issue I have to tackle at the moment anyway...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:45:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ET would be really dull if we all agreed on everything.

i don't sense contrarianism for contrarianism's sake at all. you dig in deep, and don't overstate your case, back up what you offer, and have a sense of humour.

hope to hear from you more often when you have more time.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:08:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm. It looks like your examples of wicked problems are really examples of second-order problems. That is, they are problems caused by a deeper underlying dysfunction.
Problems have causes, not solutions. The solutions to problem are really new problems, i.e. further
manifestations of the underlying dysfunction.
My take is: don't try to solve problems, instead cultivate the art of living.
by bil on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 09:48:07 AM EST
I don't see that the two are incompatible.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 11:02:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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