Poll: Europe loves Obama, Clinton, fears US

by Jerome a Paris
Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:12:07 PM EST

Just a quick diary to flag a poll by HarrisInteractive (PDF!), which includes two questions that you may find of interest.


Obamania is actually a lot stronger in Europe than in the US, with scores almost double his score in the US. But this has a simple explanation: almost nobody in Europe thinks a Republican president would be a good idea, and Hillary also has strong scores. Yet another proof that the UK is not quite part of Europe as it is the only country to prefer Clinton over Obama...

The poll is also instructive in that both Democratic candidates are heads and shoulders above any other candidate even in the US. The poll was made in the first week of February, which may explain Romney's still visible support - but evne McCain+Romeny+Thomson is only equal to either Clinton or Obama...

But the second table is bit more sobering:

The US is seen as the main threat to global stability in all countries polled - except in the US itself, where the 15% it "scores" is nevertheless strikingly high. Iran and China join the top 3, with North Korea and Iraq following behind. Russia and Pakistan's scores are surprisingly low, given the volume of the scaremongering in the first case, and the actual danger in the second case. Israel is also barely mentioned, which I'm sure will pain the "Europe is anti-semitic" crowd amongst the loony rightwing.

China's position is not really surprising, given the role played by the country in the current globalisation cycle, as the source of massive imports, a major threat to jobs and the cause of stagnating wages - alongside its staggering growth rates and record-breaking numbers across so many categories (including pollution) in recent times. The emerging new superpower frightens everybody.

Iran and Russia provide an interesting contrast: Russia is no longer seen as a credible threat. Russians come to visit us on holiday, the Red Army doesn't really exist anymore, and gas disputes are (still) too arcane for most people to care about. Other questions in the poll suggest that Europeans don't see Russia as a very reliable supplier (so that bit of propaganda over the past 2 years has worked), but they nevertheless see the country as a friend, not a foe. Americans are on ther same line, the only exception being the UK - probably because of ther Litvinenko saga. On the other hand, Iran has been painted on a systematic basis as a dangerous country, full of fanatical islamists keen on the nuclear bomb, and there is no other source of information on that particular topic than the breathless media, fed by our diplomats and politicians... So propaganda works when it is not too much at odds with reality.

And of course, there is no topic on which the dominant discourse is more at odds with reality than that of the policies of the current occupant of the White House. The world - and that includes many Americans, thankfully - is scared first and foremost by what that crowd (Republicans in power) can do. While the situation in Washington may be improved in less than a year, one would hope that others would listen to that poll: European leaders who are bent on ignoring their public opinions in order to bend over to do Bush's bidding, whether in Afghanistan, over Iran or about Russia or Kosovo.

In other words, the good news are simple: people are sick and tired of the war- and fear-mongering.

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In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:13:14 PM EST
I must admit I don't share (yet?) the enthusiasm of the majority of the people on dKos for him. It's hard to get info on the substance and the policies right now, and I don't want to get involved in the primary in any way, but I really fear the 'Bush is out, I'm in, and the "real" America is back' syndrome - the temptation to forget as quickly as possible the Bush interval. The pressure on Europeans to pledge allegiance to the new president, clean and pure and fulfilling the promise of hope,  will be overwhelming, and I don't think that's a good thing.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:21:15 PM EST
Seems to me the European media has gone absolutely ga-ga for the guy. The Swedish media in particular seems to be reporting on the US election with such religiosity I'm beginning to think Sweden is the 51st state (move over, UK!)
Wouldn't expect the guy to be a radical departure from the foreign policy conducted during the Clinton years (he has a slew of former Clinton officials involved in his campaign, for one thing, and if he had so much as questioned America's role in the world outside of certain confines he wouldn't be the frontrunner).

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm on-board with him as a means to stopping the Clintons, who I'm convinced would change almost nothing from Bush, but I quite agree that the pressure building in the European papers to accept his as some kind of Messiah is unnerving.  He's got Clinton people with him, -- granted they tend to be the more dovish ones compared with Hillary's -- but there's a lot of damage to be repaired.

He won points with me when he said he'd talk to "enemies," like Ahmadinejad, and said our refusal to do so made us look arrogant.  And he won more when he stood by that comment in the face of Clinton, Dodd and the press hammering him.

I can't, for the life of me, figure why the Brits like Hillary.  Is it some kind of desire for a Thatcheresque figure, similar to the (very gay) obsession Republicans have with Reagan?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:42:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew J Jones:
I can't, for the life of me, figure why the Brits like Hillary.  Is it some kind of desire for a Thatcheresque figure, similar to the (very gay) obsession Republicans have with Reagan?

I presume its for the same reason the Irish like her - Bill's contribution to the British Irish Peace Process

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 06:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, good point.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you look at the figures, the Brits don't like Hillary anymore than other Europeans -- only the figure for Obama is strongly less than in most others.

However, I think Jérôme over-reaches when using even this to pillory Britain. One could just as well take the second quoted table to show that Italy is the odd one out, ans that Britain is more anti-American than anyone but Spain.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, this may be true in this very narrow sense, but you have to take the facts against a much larger context. To see the larger truth, if you will.

And here, quite simply, the English have a history, unlike most of the rest of Western Europe.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are not explicit so I can't address you on a concrete point, but I can say that IMO you are in danger of painting with a broad brush. If one sees evidence of a pattern even where it isn't, the pattern is turning into prejudice.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well you know, one paints most quickly and efficiently with a broad brush.

Here are a few less broad outlines:

  1. Charter of Fundamental Rights opt out so the Brits wouldn't have to follow the same labor laws as the rest of us;
  2. Euro or lack thereof;
  3. Schengen or lack of adherence thereto;
  4. Initial opt-out of the EU Social charter
  5. Horrible indigenous food (potted eel, anyone? full disclosure, I like eel, just not the way they make it)
  6. Heyssel;
  7. Iraq war;
  8. American sock-pupper in the EU;
  9. Rains all the time and when it doesn't there's a thick fog;
  10. Drive on wrong side of road;

I see a pattern. Do you?

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!
by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1-4, 7-8: that's about the political/economic elite, not the population.

5, 9-10: come on. BTW, French trains also drive on the wrong side of railways!

6: that's about a minority of the population, which is in good company of say Italian colleagues.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh, but it sort of is a fact that, when you are a Democracy and you produce the same elite generation after generation, you can draw a conclusion about the people who put them into power, no? Are you saying there isn't a deeply atlanticist, anti-european current pervading english society which makes it impossible for any english government to actually commit england to Europe? De Gaulle was right you know.

BTW back at you, it's impossible to say french trains drive on the wrong side of the railway since french trains are the best in the world, which means whichever side we drive them is the best side and the rest of you must be wrong, just look at those supposedly engineering giants in germany who drive them on the "right side" and yet have so many accidents with their slower trains. (And don't even get me started on brit rail...)

And you can't really tell me with a straight face that I am wrong about the food. A country's food tells you a lot about its people. And in england's case it tells me they absolutely had to become an imperial power if but to eventually be able to provide average english with good south asian, chinese and caribean recipes to be able to have prepared for them in restaurant, lod knows they can't make it for themselves since it isn't prepared with some bland white sauce, baked beans or cucumbers.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:10:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh, but it sort of is a fact that, when you are a Democracy and you produce the same elite generation after generation, you can draw a conclusion about the people who put them into power, no?

No. There is also such a thing as different election systems. (To boot, I think the elites 50 years ago very rather different from those 25 years ago.)

Are you saying there isn't a deeply atlanticist, anti-european current pervading english society which makes it impossible for any english government to actually commit england to Europe?

I think there is such a current, it may even be stronger than everywhere else (maybe with the exception of Italy and Germany), but I do not think that it makes such a commitment impossible. At least not via the election (or referendum) booth.

so many accidents with their slower trains

Uhm... slower trains, so many accidents, where did you take that? At any rate, the side French trains drive on is the British side, they took railways from them. How much more civilised right-driving trains are is shown by the fact that France has not converted right-driving lines in the Alsace back to left-driving in 80 years :-)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:24:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well am I just imagining all these accidents in Germany with their "high-speed" train? Isn't this a Siemen's creation?

They could've just bought TGVs you know.

I wholly agree with you on political systems and the English have the same hidebound first past the post political tradition which hobbles the Americans too. This being said, at what point does a nation need take responsibility for an outdated and undemocratic political system?

Is this true about Alsace? Even the TGV Est line?

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well am I just imagining all these accidents in Germany with their "high-speed" train?

Yes, you are! You are linking to one single accident on a conventional line. It's not like the TGV would not be prone to accidents in the same low-speed situation :-) Also, Siemens was only one consortia member for that train, but made the trains currently commissioned for the highest speed, Spain's S-103, completely, while the TGV Est sees parallel service of German ICE-3 and French TGV POS (<-acronym in a civilised right-driving language, Paris-Ostfrankreich-Süddeutschland!) at the same top speed :-)

Is this true about Alsace? Even the TGV Est line?

Yes, it is true. The TGV Est line hasn't reached Alsace proper yet, presently the end of the line 'solves' the change-over (I can testify from travelling both via Strasbourg and via Saarbrücken).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:40:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was also an accident with the maglev, but that was completely different. The only generalization one could make is that the Germans should stay away from elevated trains. While they are generally very safety conscious, they do seem to have a problem with checking whether elevated tracks are not blocked - there was a similar accident with the Schwebebahn, definitely not a high-speed train...
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 02:23:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
About food, since England is an Old European country founded by the French, it's only because those French were booted by other French in the 100 Years' War...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune member Redstar was found dead at home yesterday. A post-mortem determined he was killed with a large dose of Marmite-laced beans on toast. In addition, an army NCB weapons team later located a booby-trapped haggis in the bathroom, a large amount of glow-in-the dark custard, and a baking tray full of spring-loaded toads-in-the-hole. According to a police source speaking on condition of anonymity, the latter are "reminiscent of the chestburster creature in Ridley Scott's film, Alien (1979)". The Shadow Home Secretary has accused the government of "a cavalier attitude in the defence of British food and cultural icons". Later during Prime Minister's Questions, Gordon Brown announced that sausages will be banned from the hand luggage of airline passengers.


You're clearly a dangerous pinko commie pragmatist.
by Vagulus on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 02:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For the record, I've not anything against Haggis, it's really pretty good.

But to be more precise, it is also not english!

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 02:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you. You know that many internet forums and lists are poisoned by recurrent Mac vs PC flame wars. Well, I live in fear of British Food vs The World (or is it the other way around?) flame wars here in ET! ;)

You're clearly a dangerous pinko commie pragmatist.
by Vagulus on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just never mention lemons, pancakes or Marmite, and you'll be fine....

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:21:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh no, you just did mention Marmite. Now all hell will break loose.

Pancakes anyone?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:25:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll have scones, thank you.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just had the last one unfortunately, with clotted cream and raspberry jam

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:13:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hillary would not continue in the Bush ways. Seriosuly, how can you say that?
by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 10:59:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Show me evidence instead of assuming it away like other Democrats do constantly.

I have mine on matters of war and peace, as well as on her anti-democratic behavior in the campaign.  I have the fact that her management style -- incompetent, surrounded by Yes Men -- is precisely the style that has been so disastrous under Bush.  I have her failed health care attempt in the 1990s -- failed, largely because of her stubborn attitude, trying to steamroll other plans that enjoyed bipartisan support in an effort to ensure her sacred mandates made it into the bill (thus alienating Congress).

Seriously, where do people get this idea that Hillary Clinton is anything close to a liberal?  The fact that so many assume she is a liberal is proof to me that Democrats would eat paint if we spent enough money on advertising.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:08:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've seen her work up close and personal. A wildly effective Senator, she has won the hearts of her constituents. Do you know anything about her background, her work on civil rights? Look at her work in the 70s. She is most definitely a liberal.

Then we have a contradiction in terms. You accuse her of not being liberal enough, and then you talk of bipartisan support for non-mandated health care in the early 1990s. Mandates are an absolute must to enact government health insurance. Without them the system collapses. Bipartisan support of people funded by for-profit health companies and the pharmaceutical industry is almost worthless. What we need is a real plan that's going to work, and if it doesn't have mandates, any gov't program is going to collapse of its own weight and forever sully the name of government medicine in the United States.

The position you're taking sounds familiar, circa 2000 when people equated Gore with Bush and ended up voting for Nader.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:20:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What kind of foreign policy do you, just you, expect from someone with Albright, Holbrooke, and Bill himself in the team? And someone who saw Putin has no soul?

I think the Hillary yopu speak about was long ago. I think she has been grinded up and shut off from reality by too many PR advisers. I see her as a tragic person trying to find her way, but the personal level doesn't change my negative expectations on policy and governance.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought this argument was about her differences from Bush.

I've been on this board for a couple years, and on dealings with Eastern Europe, I think I've always railed against Albright and Holbrooke. Would I take them over Condi/Rove/Rumsfeld, etc? Yes.

But I'm not comfortable with Obama's team either. You should read Susan Rice's papers given at her thinktank. She makes Holbrooke seem great. And though I like Samantha Power's book quite a lot, her conclusions in that same book would have led us to a wide war if she were in charge. She is an interventionist, albeit one who believes in humanitarian causes. In Bosnia, she was a vocal critic of the Vance-Owen plan because she saw it as a sop for the Serbs. OK, that's fine with me. But when James Baker scuttled the plan, the result was 100,000 murdered in the ensuing three years. The peace agreement came and Dayton looked like Vance-Owen. So, if you're going to scuttle one plan, you have a responsibility to prevent the death of 100,000. That means killing a peace plan and then intervening with hundreds of thousands of soldiers on the ground to prevent the Serbs from committing genocide. For what? When a peace agreement was in the offing already?

Her approach is maximalist. Not unlike Holbrooke and Albright's.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't want to get involved in the primary in any way.

Ah, I haven't bothered looking at the DK front page since November. Clinton or Obama, I don't care but please, dear Muricans, just pick one so we're done with it.

I'm not a fan of either. Either will do an OK president. My preference was Edwards, even if he is rabidly anti-nuclear, but he didn't make it above the media horse-race. MSM is still relevant, it seems.

But I really fear the 'Bush is out, I'm in, and the "real" America is back' syndrome - the temptation to forget as quickly as possible the Bush interval.

Amnesia is the top principle of American politics so this is exactly what is going to happen.

It will be "We're back, we're America, the Shining City on the Sunny Hill with Meadows and Fluffy Things. We're Number Ooooooone!" and they'll look very offended if they don't get their seat back right away. It's gonna be disgusting.

May be a McCain presidency could be a good thing after all ... for Europe.

Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 05:43:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, but Europe still hasn't gotten its act together after nearly 8 years of Bush. I don't see that 4 more years of US military aggression under McCain are going to bring Europe any closer to unity.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I didn't have such lofty ambitions in mind as European unity or anything.

McCain would be good for Europe in a very narrow way.

McCain will have zero expectation for Europe and vice-and-versa. More of the same shit, no change in direction, no hub-hub, same old spite. Each side its own way. The US careening into militaristic decay and economic irrelevance and Europe muddling around in its usual little dance: one step forward, two steps backward, four on the side.

With Democrats on the other hand, the expectations are going to be very high, at least on the American side. They're gonna turn towards Europe and expect to be back in the game as if nothing happened. Delusions of American Exceptionalism are very strong and in my opinion resurgent among Democrats. I can already picture Obama flying in European capitals, all proud and shining of his brand new "historical" victory, the "New JFK" and the second coming of Holy Ronald Reagan all rolled in one, and explaining in grand rhetorical flourishes how everything is going to get better thanks to American Leadership(TM). They really believe that shit.

Well, I expect European opinions to lap it up - to a point - but with governments, it's not gonna play well at all. Both sides are not talking the same language. Atlanticism is dead because all the Atlantists from the post-war era are dead. And after 8 years of Bush glaciation, a lot of old habits have died and there wasn't a lot to said for the old habits in the first place. May be you forgot but it was already pretty rough with Clinton. Even if the Bush disaster makes that period positively look like heavens, things were not going well at all between the US and Europe. It was actually pretty tense and bitter.

The Clinton I team managed to be both totally inept and perfectly cynical with Europe. Their bully number worked for them in some ways. Well, it's not going to get better. 15 years later, Americans still believe they are calling the shots like in the 90s.

I don't expect anything good from Clinton but no much bad either. Same cast as before. With Obama, well, we have a situation. The potential for a complete misunderstanding is pretty phenomenal. His style and the expectations he's setting in his campaign are going to be a big liability in relations with Europe. And then there is this little business with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's Subcommittee on European Affairs where he just spent the last year broadcasting that he doesn't give a shit about Europe.

There is plenty of nasty business to sort out: the Euro/Dollar relation, the contagion of the US financial meltdown in Europe, military cooperation in Afghanistan, the mess in Iraq (if the US thinks they are going to be able to just walk away ...), global warming, trade with China, oil supply security, Israel, etc., etc., etc.

Everything has been put on ice with Bush. There's no one to talk to anyway. McCain would continue the trend and Europe would have to grab its own arse and solve its problem on its own, the usual messy, ineffective way but its own way. At least, high-level trans-Atlantic relations won't get worse - they are inexistent - and everybody on each side will still be able to dream of the day everything gets better.

But if a Dem is elected, no more forlorn longings of sweet hope. It's show-time. All the shit is going to come out, with a severe misperception of the respective positions. The US is going to need very active help from Europe to clean up the shit. On the other hand, Europe can perfectly do nothing - out of disorganization or out of sheer passive-aggressive spite - and watch the US take the brunt of the crap while keeping the upper hand by default. No European unity is needed. It doesn't even need to be deliberate. All that Europe needs to do to gain relative power and influence against the US and in the world is to sit on its hands. No one will win. But in the mess, Europe will take its lump and still come up on top of a hugely diminished US. A lot of Europeans would be very content with that.

I'm not sure there is anyone who fully understand that last point in Washington DC. They still don't realize that the world has changed and that they don't have the luxury of taking anything for granted anymore. Yet, from what I see with the Democrats, they still waxing lyricals on American Leadership(TM) and the Natural, God Ordained and Self-Evident Goodness of America. After 8 years of Bush, they still don't have a clue and they are supposed to be to the good guys.

Unless there is a very cool head in the US executive to impose a very, very modest tone within the American side, the landing in Europe is gonna be very rough.

So I'm wondering if no landing at all is not a better solution. It would let four more years for reality to sink in.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:01:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
François, this text of yours must become a diary. its full of juice.

I think any of the frontpagers can copy and promote it to diary. Migeru and Colman have done it regularly in the past. (You too can do it, of course.)

Just find a title that fits the scope. Do not include any candidate's name in the title.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:19:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. It's just a rant.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:52:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This was the best analysis ever presented on ET on one of the most important events of the year. rant or no rant.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 12:24:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you can read German, you may find  this interesting. Klau is complaining, that Hillary has no idea, what Europeans (Germans) really think and how strong the bitterness in Europe really is about the US.
Just that you know it is not just France :-)

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:29:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
has been permanently destroyed.  

Repugs don't care and would not try.  

The 20th century truly was the American Century.  But eight years into the 21st, initiative has been squandered and has passed out of American hands.

But guess who will be the last to figure this out.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:07:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, don't take it for fully granted. USA, with all its faults, still has a terrific hand (remember its -huge, admittedly- debt is in dollars, and anyway it is too strong militarily for creditors to be too pushy, the English language still is a massive trump, as is the dominance of US law in business, giving lots of work to US consulting and law firms...).

It is misplaying that hand with a vengeance, true, and at the moment it's tough to see a way back. But it's not that long ago that we could not easily see how the initiative would get away from USA.

With a truly progressive policy of healthcare, education for all and reductions of inequalities, coupled with a massive national infrastructure program to improve energy self-sufficiency, therefore reduce military spending and probably get massive market shares in the sustainable development market that is bound to appear one day (or else...), they could achieve a lot. Besides, they would have the luxury of being able to decide when the said markets appear. Almost at the press of a button.

They still have massive assets. But all of them, to be used, will require reversing the crazy ideology that has been paraded for 40 years.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:23:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US have great assets and, correctly managed, it has all the potential to restore itself as the top superpower by far. It has space, material resources, an extensive infrastructure in poor shape but that can be fixed, a lot of nice left-overs from its industrial glory days, and, above all, it has a great demography, very balanced compared to the rest of the world.

But I don't see the US military "strength" as an asset but rather as a severe liability. It's a parasite on the economy and the government and, by maintaining the illusion of strength, it's a major roadblock obstacle on the USA #1 priority : reconnection with reality.

Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With a truly progressive policy of healthcare, education for all and reductions of inequalities, coupled with a massive national infrastructure program to improve energy self-sufficiency, therefore reduce military spending and probably get massive market shares in the sustainable development market that is bound to appear one day (or else...), they could achieve a lot.  

Theoretically, a reversal of policy could achieve much, until you consider that the reasons the US abandoned sustainable energy policy in 1980 are the same reasons it will not go back to it now.  It is crucial to note that there is not enough sustainable energy in any form to power our civilization;  sustainable energy implies the RADICAL transformation of that civilization, including not just conservation and reduction of resource use, but the end of capitalism and debt-based money.  

Meanwhile, practically speaking, the window is closing:  Year 2008 may well be the year when the US is revealed as bankrupt.  After that, nothing will be done.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:15:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you talk as if Vietnam never happened, the Paris riots, etc.

I lived in Europe during the Reagan era.

This is the nadir with Bush, but I don't see a huge change. There never was a deep pro-US sentiment in Europe. Not in my time in Europe anyway.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:02:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for your obsevations.  

I remember Vietnam, and left it out for reasons of simplicity.  But you are right:  As early as the 1970s  one could see that the American Century would likely be ending, in effect by choice.  

There is indeed a progression from there to the atrocities of this century, and disenchantment has been a gradual process with many events along the way.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here it is rather convincing written that Washington all the time expected the Europeans to follow.
An exerpt:
"Europeans, I was told, always loudly disagree with US proposals but, in the end, whether it be expanding NATO or recognizing an independent Kosovo, will acquiesce to what America insists upon. At the same time, the US can continue to have fundamental disagreements with its European partners over matters such as climate change policy or international law without causing any major damage to the relationship."

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I expect European opinions to lap it up - to a point - but with governments, it's not gonna play well at all. Both sides are not talking the same language. Atlanticism is dead because all the Atlantists from the post-war era are dead.

My expectation is that governments will believe the shit a lot more than the population. Our governments will bend over backwards to try to please the new president, and to try to forget about past contentious issues, while the population will be a lot more doubtful.

Don't forget as well that it will be Sarkozy and Brown in the lead...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have the hauts fonctionnaires in mind more than the elective clowns.

And if you are correct about the population, then it's good news we have Sarkozy. With his polls in the crapper, that ADD weathervane will do whatever pleases the electorate.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:47:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with DoDo and Jérôme and Martin on Atlanticism being "undead". I also agree with findmeaDoorintoSummer that this should be a diary. But this will be the 23rd comment under the "rant" so a diary now would require people to cross-post their comments.

ET 2.0 feature request: the ability to "detach" or "clone" a comment as an article. One can abstract a diary as just a child of the "home" root-node, like a comment is a child of another comment, or a diary.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 12:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The European Commission staff don't have any illusions about working with the US. I am not sure the same can be said of the Commissioners or other political (as opposed to technocratic) appointees. The same is probably true of EU-15 diplomatic corps and politicians. On the new member states, I don't know. It appears their bubble hasn't popped yet.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 12:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Mais c'est un scandâââle!!
by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great rant, but I disagree. I don't see Atlanticism dead. Just yesterday on Kosovo we saw how undead the monster is.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:01:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know you've said this is simply a rant, but really you should post this as a diary. There was another one on "which USian candidate would be best for Europe" already, but yours really puts it in terms which describe the evolution of the relationship and real supranational European interest.

And you almost got me thinking I'd better vote McCain. After all, I won't be in the US to suffer the consequences!

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And you almost got me thinking I'd better vote McCain. After all, I won't be in the US to suffer the consequences!

Okay, but only if you take me with you.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you've already escaped England so you know how to do it.


Mais c'est un scandâââle!!
by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:12:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know, but I'd be hesitant to return after your bit on eel dishes of mass destruction.  I hadn't heard about that.  Paris, maybe.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please, don't vote McCain.

Even if I can always go back home, I still live in the US :)

Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
long ago...

Actually, I do have to get round to getting an absentee ballot so that I will be able to vote.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 02:04:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll join the piling on and say that this is a good rant.

I still disagree with much of it, for instance, I think the concept of relative power is completely alien from our requirements as citizens. For my part, I called Obama "the best, the most challenging and the most dangerous candidate" in this diary and I'm a lot more worried about the scenario where he doesn't get the necessary reality check from Europe (because then we'll likely be fighting another ill-considered war together).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 02:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with your preference for Edwards over Obama and Clinton, and I think your assessment is correct that the coming Obama or Clinton presidency (whichever it is) is going to result in a nauseating orgy of American self-congratulation that will be out of all proportion to the minuscule amount of real policy change.

I can't, however, endorse your proposition that a McCain presidency would be good for anybody.

by keikekaze on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 06:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that my argument that a McCain presidency would be good for someone is pretty marginal and perfectly cynical so don't take it too seriously.

The only arguments I'm really willing to defend is that 1) the US need Europe far more than Europe needs the US and 2) the reconnection between Europe and the US with a Democrat in charge may turn very ugly on fundamental misunderstandings and truly divergent interests.

I'm also really unconvinced by either Obama or Clinton: too soft, too tactical, too pampered, too invested in the status quo when the country is in dire need of heavy duty reforms, particularly against its economic elites. I can really see Clinton or Obama blowing it completely by timidity, paving the road for a Republican resurgence en 2012.

In particular, I have really bad vibes about Obama if his proposals are any indication. Hopefully, I'm wrong. After all Roosevelt ran on a strictly orthodox platform of fiscal conservatism and ended up doing the exact opposite.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 02:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I share your misgivings about both Clinton and Obama--especially Obama.  He's being given a huge free pass by Americans who consider themselves "progressives" because he once protested the Iraq invasion--at a time when he wasn't holding political office and therefore didn't have to do anything about the invasion that would have political consequences.  Big deal.  

Nothing else he has said or done so far encourages me at all.

Since the departure of Edwards from the primaries, I've felt like a political ship without a sail!  Six months ago, I would never have guessed that I could come to believe by February 2008 that Hillary Clinton now represents the best realistic option Americans have left.

by keikekaze on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 04:50:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dont share dKos's and the US mainstream media's enthusiasm for Obama, either.  He's the "Democratic" Reagan (all empty suit and feel-good rhetoric), which is why everyone across the board in the US is in love with him, and is also why he'll never amount to anything.

It's beginning to look very likely that the next US president will be a Democrat (corporate America, having perceived this some time ago, has been buying into the party, big-time), but equally likely that that Democrat (whether Obama or Clinton) will not offer us very much real relief from the global-corporatist policies of the Bush regime.

by keikekaze on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 06:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Appreciate the diary, but this is a cheap shot:
Yet another proof that the UK is not quite part of Europe as it is the only country to prefer Clinton over Obama...

The only significant difference I see is that the amount of undecideds is a whole lot bigger in the UK.

Also: Italy is the only European country that thinks both China and Iran are bigger threats to global stability than the United States.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:45:50 PM EST
The difference is indeed small. Even if we used a better criterion.
IMO the best detector of differences in thinking is the total % of people supporting republican candidates (and it is still not much). Of which list Ron Paul is not included.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 06:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some of the questions in the PDF are bit peculiar. Take question #2 for example: "How much would you like or dislike buying your household gas and/or electricity from a Russian-owned company?"

Eh? You would think that if people were at all invested in from whence their electricity comes from, they would more likely have a negative attitude towards it than a positive (neutral/indifferent doesn't appear to be an option). I sincerely doubt people are sitting in their homes, thinking to themselves "aah yes, sweet delicious russkoye elektrichestvo!"

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:56:59 PM EST
I sincerely doubt people are sitting in their homes, thinking to themselves "aah yes, sweet delicious russkoye elektrichestvo!"

'Cept the Russians selling it, of course...  :)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 05:02:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Clearly they've been undersampled in this survey ;)

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (michael<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 05:08:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Poll: Europe loves Obama, Clinton, fears US
Yet another proof that the UK is not quite part of Europe as it is the only country to prefer Clinton over Obama...

It could also be that hardly anyone knows who the hell Obama is. If you look at BBC coverage, it concentrates on the R race.

The percentages are just as likely to show media depth and familiarity as they are ideological differences.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:37:33 AM EST
That was a cheap shot in any case!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really, still covering the Rs?  The BBC website has been running Obama a lot with the whole eight-wins-in-a-row thing.  Is it different on television?  I would've thought Yanks electing a "darkie" would get some play.

I think Europeans probably -- and, yes, wrongly -- take the ideological differences as a given with party affiliation, but I am quite impressed that such a large percentage apparently know enough to state a preference.  The poll does make a fair bit of sense in that way, although I'd agree that most Europeans probably don't know much about who these people are, with the obvious exception of Clinton.

I can see McCain having some appeal with the more right-wing Tory and BNP elements.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:15:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
McCain addressed the entire conservative party conference last october. It's already a love-in with most of them.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, that's right.  I'd forgotten.  Y'all could've kept him, you know.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:34:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a McCain 2008 sticker spotted in Peterborough this week.

Maybe they were visiting Americans. It would be a bit mad otherwise.

As for BBC coverage - I haven't been giving the BBC website my undivided attention, but from headline spotting, all of the primaries seem to have been covered from the R race angle. It seems they've only recently discovered there's someone called Obama and he's unexpectedly pulled ahead of Clinton and - say - the Dems are having a primary too. Well - who'd have expected that?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 08:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, a McCain sticker on a Brit's car -- I assume it was a bumper sticker? -- would be very odd.  Must have been a visitor or an expat supporting him in the Americans Abroad primary.

I thought about it, too, and I figure McCain would not do well with the crazies, even in Britain, because of his immigration stance.  Isn't that a big issue to conservatives over there, but replacing Mexicans with Poles and Muslims?

That's what's weird.  The GOP primary is over.  I don't think it's even possible for Huckabee to win at this point, unless McCain somehow magically falls below 15% in every congressional district.  A few of the upcoming primaries are proportional on delegate selection for them.  The best we can hope for from Huckster is that he'll keep McCain busy while we try to get Hillary back on the reservation (she's now saying she'll try to steal Obama's pledged delegates if the supers don't bail her out).

Clinton's now, depending on the poll, up either 50-48% or 50-45% in Texas, and Obama hasn't even hit the ground yet there.  I suspect the BBC will take notice if he wins that contest, because the whole country here will be asking, "How the hell did a black guy win Texas?"

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 09:27:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(she's now saying she'll try to steal Obama's pledged delegates if the supers don't bail her out).

How is this possible?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 10:31:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Pledged" delegates are chosen by representatives at state party conventions.  Technically, they can change their votes.  Is it likely to happen?  No.  But it could.  And it reveals a lot about Hillary Clinton.  My Republican friends, whenever I've spoken with them about her behavior, keep saying to me, "Look, stupid, we already know she's a power-hungry lunatic.  It's you idiot Democrats who can't seem to figure it out."  And you know what?  I think they're right.  She's completely out to lunch.

And, personally, I think anyone willing to go this far shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the White House.  How far is she willing to go?  She's now essentially declared open war on democracy (no, I don't care what the party rules say, because that's what this really amounts to).  It's more than a little disturbing to me that she was allowed to live at 1600 for eight years already.

The Clinton people justify all of this by saying, "Well, Obama would do it, too."  Maybe that's true, but from where I sit Obama has run one of the cleanest campaigns I've ever seen or heard about, and he's never shown any great desire to overturn the will of the voters.  His character shouldn't be in question -- at least not yet.  Hers most certainly should be at this point.

Democrats would be wise to seriously ask themselves whether Clinton would be any better than Bush, let alone McCain.  I know we always blow off that question as silly, but I'm really starting to wonder.  The authoritarian tendencies of the Clintonistas are on full display now, and it only seems to be getting worse.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 10:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Man, your hatred of Hillary is over the top. Agreeing with Republicans on their hate for her?

She's power hungry?

As if anyone running for Senate or President isn't?

Seriously, this isn't good, damaging one of the two Dem candidates like this, especially since the only thing the GOP has against her is that she's a woman running for President who is married to a man they hate.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:04:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, as I answered you above, show me the evidence.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is why I think your posts are unfortunate:

You wrote that you agreed with friendly Republicans who called her a power-hungry lunatic. They hate her because she's a woman. This is pretty clear. How do I know this? Because they hated her in the 1990s before she was even a political actor. For what? For her efforts to enact gov't health care? Please.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:22:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You wrote that you agreed with friendly Republicans who called her a power-hungry lunatic. They hate her because she's a woman.

No, with all due respect, you don't know these people, so keep the accusations down.  Is it always about gender in Hillaryland?  Anybody who doesn't like her is automatically a sexist?  It's never about the war (AUMF and Kyl-Leiberman), or the race-baiting (Shaheen, Bubba, Cuomo), or the lying (Rezko, 2001 bankruptcy bill), or the failure (health care, not reading the NIE before voting on Iraq), or her corrupt and incompetent inner circle (Penn, Wolfson, Bubba), or her time at Wal-Mart and as a corporate lawyer, or she and her husbands dealings (see Kazakhstan, Dictator of), or anything of real substance.  It's always about gender, isn't it?  It's always the evil men whose sole mission in life is apparently to keep women down, isn't it?  That's the only logical explanation for Clinton blowing a 30-point lead, I suppose.

Wow.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:46:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm. How politically aware have you been in the first two years of Bill's presidency? When Repubs and dissident Dems who were in the pay of the healthcare lobby killed Hillary's national healthcare plan? I do remember rather clearly that the anti-Hillary Repub campaign was born then, and it was ugly, as ugly as anything Rove put together, and quitew explicitely anti-feminist. Its after-shocks were still 'audible' when I first debated US right-wingers on the internet a few years later.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not denying it was ugly.  In fact, I've stated, quite clearly, that Clinton has been the victim of hatred from Republicans for reasons that were usually nonexistent.  That's an acceptable argument to me.  What is not an acceptable argument is that which concludes Clinton hatred is all based upon nothing but sexism, hence my brief summary of actual reasons above (Or below?  Where are we in the thread?).

Note redstar's points about Wellstone, et al, too.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:47:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not even a Hillary supporter. I just don't agree with the backlash against her.

The race-baiting goes both ways. In the general election, some of the cries of racism will be met with accusations of playing the race card. In general I found Bubba and Cuomo's comments to be completely non-racist, whereas I thought Shaheen's and one other (I forget now) stepped over the line. The rest of it is the same type of smears against Kerry for taking Dean down, and that ultimately cost Kerry the election. The guy was thoroughly neutered by Democrats before even beginning the general election. The same thing is happening again should Hillary win. Look at the litany you wrote above: vote on Iraq War (in line with every Democrat with aspirations of running for President including Edwards), race-baiting (a trumped up charge), lying (goes both ways since Obama's group uncovered a picture of Hillary with Rezko), failure (health care? My God, you are holding 1993 against her? Obama doesn't even have mandates), corrupt and incompetent inner circle (Bubba is listed there?), Wal-Mart lawyer (come on! please, that's as low as imagining Obama changing his policies on Big Pharma just because they are major contributors (which he did)).

It is about gender. I'm convinced. Why did your Republican friends hate her? I can't see why.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is about gender. I'm convinced. Why did your Republican friends hate her? I can't see why.

And that is quite an interesting comment on a lot of levels.

No, I don't like any of them. The US hasn't had a president I like since Roosevelt died.

But I'll take Obama because I don't know that he's a trigger-happy lunatic. Devil I don't know over the devil I do.

But I'll root for Clinton if she gets the nomination, because the thought of McCain sitting on 27 thousand megaton sends chills down my spine.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You'd do well to recount those health care "reform" efforts, how she went about things, how she ultimately failed, understand that she herself shared in that failure more than just a little, and not all of that share was simply due to her underestimating the depths of opposition.

If you are going to be an arrogant sumbitch, you'd best have some fire power backing you up, including cover (like Wellstone and Wofford were trying to provide by pushing single-payer before the Clintons forced them to pull the proposal from the table). And more important than having the firepower, you have to have the desire to use it.


Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I simply find this argument preposterous since on the one hand, she's slammed in Drew's post for not working with a bipartisan effort, and in the other, for not taking up Wellstone's single-payer plan which would have been DOA in congress.

Yeah, well, this arrogant sumbitch at least has logic on his side. Please use some next time.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you're missing the point. 1993 was 15 years ago.

Today she's mostly being slammed for running an incompetent campaign managed by a Republican ass, committing one PR gaffe after another, alienating her base, being financially inept, threatening to throw the entire party under a bus if she doesn't win, and not bothering to show up for important votes in the Senate.

A lot of campaign politics happens under the radar of rationality. With the flip-flopping narrative Bush was able to paint Kerry as a weak loser, even though the reality was that Bush was weak, a loser, and someone with serious mental health issues.

Because Hillary has a tin ear for narratives, she's managed to portray herself as someone who cares only about herself and will do anything - anything - to win the nod.

Obama meanwhile has run a superb campaign, based on plenty of 'we' power. The chances are good it's mostly rhetoric, but he's successfully painted himself as a winner. Leaving Hillary as the loser.

The key point that you're missing is that Obama has done nothing that Hillary couldn't have done. She started with all of the advantages, and if she'd had the people skills to build on them she'd have cruised to an easy win.

But - no evidence of people skills at all. And that's what's destroyed her campaign, more than any other factor.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No evidence of people skills? I'm sorry, that's not the Hillary that I know. She is a pretty warm person.

What do you mean by people skills?

Are you talking about one-to-on e situations or speaking in front of an auditorium?

I simply disagree with what you're saying. But it's an attack and I can't respond to anything in specific. In point of fact, I even like her health care plan more than Obama's, so to say she only cares about herself is not quite right. Someone could easily say the same thing about Obama based on his health plan alone.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't matter how warm she is in person if she can't persuade people to warm to her during a campaign, and if she - notoriously - picks the wrong people to run it.

And it's only 'just an attack' if you miss the overwhelming evidence of her inability to connect with ordinary voters, to act graciously, and to create a feeling of inclusiveness - and also to pick good people to run her campaign.

These are all clear evidence that managing people - i.e. managing relationships, managing expectations, and building effective teams of supporters - is not her strong suit.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 04:57:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, those charges are coming from her opposition, and that's why I tend to dismiss them. I do think she'd be a great candidate for President. I'm just responding because of the constant attempts to make her seem like a vampire.

We simply disagree. If she wasn't a good "manager" she wouldn't have gotten so much done in the Senate.

by Upstate NY on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 09:08:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If she was a good manager she'd have run a successful campaign. How can you blow through $100 million and be losing 'safe' states with 20%, 30%, or 50% margins?

The 'Republican attacks' idea is nonsense, because there really haven't been any serious attacks on her.

In fact she's attacked Obama far more aggressively than the Rs have attacked her.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 12:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No serious attacks on her?

She's been attacked more than any candidate in history.

This has been going on for years.

I'm really surprised you said that.

She's losing to Obama. That doesn't make her a bad manager. Under that logic, there is only one good manager every year. Last two times around, Geroge Bush was the best manager in the US.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 09:08:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to be the arrogant sumbitch, not you.

And you really haven't addressed my criticisms, which were both logical and substantive, namely that Hillary Clinton, like her husband, is no progressive.

As for her health plan, both now and especially in 1993, quite honestly I like Richard Nixon's better.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 at 10:27:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Richard Nixon was in favor of a for-profit health system that stiffed people.

Hillary's plan mandates that people buy insurance so that we're all in it together, it takes the load off of business which will massively increase productivity and therefore earnings by encouraging small business especially, and it provides incentive for businesses to move workers to a gov't plan, thereby making a single payer plan possible for the first time ever.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 09:11:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nixon's plan was in fact very simlar to Clinton's plan.

You guys crack me though. Listen to your rhetoric, it's too funny. You're talking about how your plan is good for business. Massively increase productivity. And this will somehow increase earnings.

Sorry man, but I don't drink your centrist kool-aid. First, do you have any evidence whatsoever that productivity increases translate into wage gains for most workers? Quite the contrary, they haven't. The gini coefficient has been increasing steadily in the US since the early '70's and in fact did so just as quickly under Billary's term as it has under Dumbya's term. So this is just kool-aid you are serving here.

Again, my criticism of Billary is that they are simply the moderate wing of the corporatist party in America, and you turn around and tell me how her plan is good for business. Well, thank's for proving my point.

When you have leaders, and their partisans like you, who borrow the rhetoric, framing and ideological benchmarks of the Republican party, small wonder nothing substantive has been done for workers by the "Democratic" party in over thirty years...

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 10:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's funny. I consider Hillary's program the more progressive and liberal. Obama's is far more conservative. Nixon is the guy who authorized Kaiser Permanente to stiff people. How is that Hillary's program?

Obama is far to the right of Hillary on this. Without mandates, healthy people will not contribute. Look at the massive use of Medical Tax Accounts among people of means. They pay out of pocket tax-free while maintaining cheap catastrophic insurance. This would kill the government program.

You accuse me of borrowing the rhetoric of the GOP. It's funny. I think you're the one borrowing the rhetoric of the GOP. Obama's plan would be much more favored by the GOP.

Look, Paul Krugman made these same criticisms of Obama's plan. So did John Edwards. are these guys Republicans? Please. Argue the merits instead of smearing me as a Republican.

The business angle here should be obvious to you. By having a gov't program that's affordable and doesn't lard on extra fees for people with health problems, you effectively give businesses a huge reason to shuttle their workers over to the gov't pogram. Most businesses would gladly give incentives to workers (higher salaries even) to rid themselves of the health care insurance headache. Even better, their workers would get better service since so many health plans renege on covering basic services. We already ante-up our wages for health care provided by our place of employ.

On an economic front, the effect of removing the burden of providing health care on companies such as Wal-Mart would create a business boom. Toyota recently was deciding whether to open a manufacturing plant in Western NY or Southern Ontario. They went with Ontario, and their stated reasons were on health care concerns. They elected to pay much higher corporate taxes in Canada rather than deal with the health care fiasco.

This is a very leftist liberal position.

I might also add that it's very courageous as well since mandates will be a bitter pill for the electorate to swallow.

By the way, I voted for Obama a few weeks ago.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 11:42:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Under Hillary's plan, is Kaiser Permanente going away?
Nope.

As long as that's the case, I think it's pretty clear that the BCBS, KP, GH and HPs of the world will stiff patients. Healthcare is a right, and the most efficient way to deliver it is to rationalize the administrative overhead all the while extended the mutualization pool to cover each and everyone.

Clinton's plan? Leftist it ain't. To the left of Obama's? Sure, on paper. Krugman's right about that.

But leftist would actually fund that mandate by not only rolling back the bipartisan Bush tax cuts, but re-establishing substantial tax progressivity at the personal and corporate income tax level. Government provided insurance of guaranteed equitable access to healthcare. That's more leftist. Nationalize the bloodsucking insurance companies - now you're talking.

Not directly going after the insurance companies, the tax inqeuities and healthcare access issues, essentially leaving in place the market-based for-profit medical delivery system, as Hillary (and let's be honest, Obama too) proposes? Not leftist. Not ultra-neoliberal, but not social medicine, either.

You're right - Hillary's plan would be a bitter pill to swallow. People are worried about their healthcare, losing access to it, how they can afford premiums and going bankrupt if they can't and get sick. And now Billary are saying they're going to require coverage, for people who can't even figure out how to pay the mortgage, the rent and decent food for their kids? So now they add to all the other fears the fear of the waterboarding Federal government, the one which has a knack for coming up with unfunded mandate after unfunded mandate, coming after them because they didn't buy coverage?

Damn right that's a bitter pill.

Obama at least understands this, and frames his objections to Hillary's "bitter pill" with a left frame, invoking people's fears of not being able to afford it.

Again, on paper, her's makes more economic sense, but neither one is good, and Obama wins on the framing and on not being tone-deaf to what working people fear.

Full disclosure, I didn't caucus for either of them.


Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 12:10:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe that yes, Kaiser will go away in 10 years time, unless they decide to provide supplemental insurance. Maybe a portion of them will survive.

With mandates, an employee would have to take any incentive from his private company to leave the company's plan and reinvest that incentive in the gov't plan. Will there be pain in the transition? I imagine so. But businesses will be putting this transition on the fast track in order to recover the unwieldy costs of having to provide health insurance for their workers. They will absolutely see the money sense of giving workers higher salaries in exchange for not having to provide them health care. If I'm paying $180 a month right now (I am) and my employer is chipping in $310 (it is) then that combined $500 a month should be enough for me to buy into the gov't plan (in fact, the gov't plan may even be less). Poor people who are squeezed? They have to be subsidized. The fact is, many of the working poor do not even have health insurance right now. This is what the health care plan is all about, providing coverage to the uninsured, because otherwise it's not going to happen. Without mandates, we're still going to have a ton of uninsured. With mandates, we will be transitioning to a single-payer system. When a huge proportion of the workforce is under a gov't plan, the transition to universal health care would be easy because the gov't could then deal directly with health care providers.

I'm at a loss to see why you're coming down harder on Clinton for health care when Obama's plan leaves a LOT more to be desired. Hillary is showing leadership on this issue. Obama isn't. I was a former Edwards' support, and if you read the Edwards diary here you'll see me say that I'd be a lot more willing to go with Obama if I could trust him on health care. He used to be excellent on it a couple years ago, but his positions have changed radically on this issue.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 12:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope you realize this requires me to make just as big a leap of faith as believing Obama's more lefty than he's letting on.

In any event, the devil is in the details.

You mouth platitudes about how the working poor will magically get covered with the Clinton plan. Somebody's got to show them the money though, because as you know, fucking the working poor has been a bipartisan sport since the 1970's. Fear of an unfunded mandate by the working poor is not an irrational fear,

Here are some of the other mandates the nanny-state upper-middle class and wealthy wing, the dominant wing of the Democratic party, has given them: ever more expensive child-restraint seats in cars, auto-emissions standards which make it hard for the average jalopy to get tabs/vignettes (this one hit me particularly hard when I was struggling) ever shifting burden of public school expenditures to parents via fees, kids left out of extracurriculars due to cost, et c...Think these are small beer? You try to tell that to a single mom making 20K/year with two kids and no spousal support.

Sorry, but if you have a party which hasn't put up anything on the boards for working people in decades, you'd best spell out exactly how this is going to work such that working people's discretionary incomes will not be hammered. Again, working people's fear of Democrats hitting their discretionary income is both very real and very rational.

What's really surprising to me in all of this is that there is a simple answer to all this. Take on the corporations, and fight for the wealthy to pay their fair share. Instead, we get this corporatist DLC bullshit which quite frankly is less than inspiring.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 01:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you realize what a huge change this will be for small business and big business? This will be the biggest jobs program in eons. This is effectively a massive tax hike because of mandates. But because businesses will not be burdened with health care anymore, you're going to have a lot of the working poor working for more. Our fucked up health care reason is practically reason enough for many people to avoid taking a chance on a small business. This is going to be a huge change if it comes through.

If you're holding out for a single-payer system, then good luck. And in 10 years when we don't have one we can discuss how maybe 10 years of transition from 2008 to 2018 would have been worth--if we had only pushed for mandates.

Your guy Obama is the very guy who said transitioning directly to a universal system is impossible. If you start from scratch, yes. But not in America. Those are Obama's words. I fail to see how in a thread about Obama/Clinton you are laying into Clinton for not going for universal coverage when your very own candidate scoffs completely at even the idea of universal coverage.

by Upstate NY on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 12:20:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, do you honestly think that anyone running for president is humble? All of these people are arrogant. It's in their job description. I don't believe any of them. Obama is not the Messiah.
by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 09:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, and it may be that both Democrats still in this thing (assuming Billary still is) are taking me for an idiot.

But at least with Billary, I know they are taking me and the left flank for idiots, and the fact they do so with a straight face makes this arrogance far too flagrant for me to even consider bothering to vote for them.

At least with Obama, there's enough ambiguity in there to suggest there might be some hope that he isn't just taking us for a ride.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 10:46:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've read enough on Obama to know that he HAS changed positions because of his donors and contacts.

On Israeli/Palestine issues and on health care issues, he is VERY far away from where he was just a year or two ago.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 11:33:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I agree 100%, which makes me believe he's simply saying right now what he thinks he needs to say to get elected by the great middle in the US, but that he really is further to the left, in reality, than he says.

With Clinton, who has a longer (and quite frankly not impressive, I know she's your senator and you like her but I don't think there are more than two or three US senators today who, objectively speaking, can be characterized as "left," and Hillary ain't one of them) track record on these things, we know what's there. Nothing ambiguous about it, and it isn't attractive.

This isn't backlash, at least coming from the left. Billary lost this lefty in 1993. He was elected to put in universal healthcare and instead we got welfare "reform", NAFTA, a capital gains tax cut that G HW Bush campaigned on but was never able to get Democrats to sign (Bill succeeded where the GOP failed here, and that's not a compliment.) Telco "Reform". Et c. Bill Clinton was perhaps the best GOP President since Richard Nixon.

For better or for worse, Billary II is saddled with that legacy, especially as she surrounds herself with the same insider corporatist Dems as her husband (starting with Mark Penn). And I'll be damned if I can hold my nose for that. I didn't in '96, and I won't now either.

And let's face it, McCain doesn't make people recoil in disgust like Dubya does, so Billary will have a relatively harder time against him than Obama will. Not saying she can't win, but there is a reason why Obama does much better in general matchups than Clinton, and at least some of it is people like me saying we won't bother come November.

And yes, I understand that at some level, this isn't about me, that ultimately it only comes down to 50% of delegates plus one. But, there is are many layers of personal transaction cost to voting, absentee ballot mail in, going through the hassle of getting one in the first place, and then having to yet again vote against both one's real interests and one's conscience yet again for a moderate Republican parading as a Democrat in order to win the center. Personally, I've got better things to do.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 11:56:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really find it difficult to argue with you on this, because my previous posts already address what happened in 1993.

How can anyone possibly present a point-of-view when simultaneously I have to address the fact that her 1993 proposal didn't receive bipartisan support and it wasn't a universal health coverage initiative?

I mean, which point should I address? In 1993, universal coverage would have been DOA in congress.

Also, I would note that Hillary lost you because she didn't put forward universal coverage, yet you support Obama whose health care policy is far far from universal single-payer coverage.

This doesn't make any sense at all to me.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 12:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your previous post did not address all of what happened in 1993.

Let's face it, Bill and Hillary Clinton badly botched something they were sent to the White House to get done. Part of it is shared with "Democratic" leaders like Daniel Patrick Moynihan. But if the Democrats had been as disciplined as the GOP is, and if the Clinton's had been competent in turning around a plan they were mandated to put in place, I have no doubt we'd have health care, equitable and for all, today.

They badly botched it, and they paid a price for that in 1994.

You all can say excuse them, and excuse the Democratic leadership at the time, saying they were too fractured, or whatever. I tend to employ occam's razon on this and say the simplest explanation is the best one: most Democratic representatives are not on our side, they are on shareholders and the corporations they own's side first and foremost. And what was true then is still true: tax cuts for the rich, Iraq, bankruptcy "reform", fisa, et c.

Until the message they come up with addresses that, Hillary ain't going anywhere for people like me.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 01:24:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, it's always amusing here on the web site devoted to EU issues that the biggest foodfights are between Americans.

BTW, as a (half) American, I have to step in and say Drew has a point. I won't be voting for Hillary Clinton no way no how. I don't need republican friends or the self-described "progressive" gasbags on daily kos to tell me that the Clintons are bad news. Promise me eight more years of the Clintons and their retinue of right-wing gasbags like Robert Rubin, Bill Cohen, Mark Penn, Larry Summers and co? No thanks.

The first eight years of Clinton? Not one legislative accomplishment on behalf of and for the betterment of the lives of real working people in America. Better than the other guys? Depends on your frame of reference, your time horizon and whether or not you think ideological battles lost today ensure decades of policy battles lost tomorrow.

I also think that it is amusing that American "liberals" (whatever this means, sorry the term means little to nothing to me) always insist on sainting their own favorite candidate as "progressive" and having a "progressive voting record" as if there have actually been votes in the US Congress, real honest to god defining votes, over the past 30 years, which would confirm someone is on the left. For god's sake, Overton's window in the halls of legislative power in the US has shifted so far right that the you can't even see the fucking sun rise or set through it anymore.

Full disclosure: I don't like Obama either.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well said.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:15:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably USAF - Peterborough is only about 25 miles from Lakenheath.

Regards
Luke

-- #include witty_sig.h

by silburnl on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:08:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Peterborough Ontario, home of the Peterborough Petes?

Was probably Don Cherry passing through.

Mais c'est un scandâââle!!

by redstar on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 12:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iran and Russia provide an interesting contrast: Russia is no longer seen as a credible threat. ...but they nevertheless see the country as a friend, not a foe.

I don't think that follows from the poll. The poll was single-choice, asking for the greatest threat. That can include a lot of people who feel threatened by Russia, but think other countries are more threatening.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:56:11 AM EST
where people are specifically asked about Russia: friend or enemy: strong majorities in all countries except the UK say 'friend.'

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:11:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That may have been less of a cheap shot on the UK. (Though one the dKos crowd wouldn't care about at present.)

I note though that the question is relative, "more" a friend or foe.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:11:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again I would guess more specific experiences. The Litvinienko murder may have a bigger influence in GB.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 08:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Jerome, this is an interesting poll. In the end, however, Europeans may be deceiving themselves by underestimating McCain. Weighing the odds, it seems likely that he will be the next president.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
by LazyEnterprise (lazyenterprise@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 05:04:42 AM EST
The poll was unfair as no EU country was included in list of threatening countries. Maybe I think UK or France is the biggest threat to global security with their freak foreign ministers.
by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 08:23:11 AM EST

The linked table includes France and the UK, with under .5 % in every column. There are similar figures for religious fundamentalists and terrorist organizations. The only figures above ,5 % not included in the original post are the entries for "none", and 1 % for "Other" from Spain and Italy - I wonder who they had in mind (The Vatican?), as well as between 5 and 10 % in each country for "none".

Oh, and 1 % in the U.S. had no idea or refused to answer. That  didn't happen anywhere else.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 08:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am very glad they were included. That forced me to open pdf file and found motley crue selection of questions (this is usually indication of unreliable poor opinion polls - better ones concentrate on one narrow problem, for example reliability of Russia as energy supplier and then ask all kind of questions about it) and found that it was "conducted online" and I didn't't wanna to inquire further as it was clear to me how questionable this poll was.
by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 12:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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