European Tribune

ET Film Discussion Blog #1.

by LEP
Thu Feb 7th, 2008 at 06:05:53 PM EST

Welcome to the first edition of the ET Film Discussion Blog.The two films I have chosen  to discuss represent two bookends to Weimar Germany.
(1) The SERPENT'S EGG, by Ingmar Bergman, takes place during one week  in November 1923. It's ten months after the French have invaded the Ruhr (in January, 1923) ostensibly because Germany had stopped paying the onerous reparations dictated by the Treaty of Versailles of 1919. The Germans then turned to passive resistance and strikes in the Ruhr which led to the total collapse of the German economy turning the severe inflation that had started in 1921 into hyperinflation.
The film opens in black and white with a procession of humans walking about five abreast with blank depressed expressions on their faces. The opening credits play along with some nightclub music from the 1920's. The narrator speaks: " The scene is Berlin, the evening of Saturday, November 3, 1923; a pack of cigarettes costs 4 billion marks  and most everyone has lost faith in both  the future and the present."
I'm going to lift a few paragraphs from a reviewer at amazon.com,  who describes the film as well as I've seen  anywhere.

"The newspapers are black with fear, threats and rumours. The government seems powerless. A bloody confrontation between the extremist parties appears unavoidable. Despite all this, people go to work, the rain never stops and fear rises like vapour from the cobblestones". These phrases, said by an unknown narrator, are a clear description of the dark mood that permeates this film.

The main character is Abel Rosenberg (David Carradine), an American circus artist who is stranded in Berlin along with his brother Max and Max's former wife Manuela (Liv Ullman), due to an injury that rendered Max unable to perform their trapeze act. Things deteriorate as they run out of money, as the general situation for all those living in Germany worsens too. It is the 1920's, and the whole country suffered from inflation, unemployment, and periodic outbursts of Anti-Jewish sentiment. Berlin wasn't a good place to live for anybody at that time, but the situation for the Rosenbergs was even worse, because they were poor, unemployed, Jewish and foreigners.

"The serpent's egg" (1977) begins with Max committing suicide, as an act of utmost desperation. After that, Abel is left with Manuela as his only ally in a place that steadily becomes full of omens presaging misfortune. To endure the mere fact of being alive when his brother is not, Abel gets drunk every day. The irreality that alcohol offers offers him is the only way of fighting fear, fear of what is happening in Berlin, and of what he sees looming in the horizon. In Abel's words, "I wake up from a nightmare, and find that real life is worse than the dream".
Evidently, Abel Rosenberg is an unlikely main protagonist, because he doesn't do much, merely existing in an unfriendly environment, taking in all that is happening without doing anything to change it. But maybe that is the task that the director, Ingmar Bergman, gave to him: to act as an eyewitness of times to come.


By M. Alcat "bel_78" (Buenos Aires, Argentina) -link


The Serpent's Egg ends seven days after it began, the day after Hitler's failed "beer hall putch" in Munich on November 9th.

(2) CABARET takes place eight years later just before the very end of Weimar Germany. What's happened in between is that in November,1923, just after the period covered by "The Serpent's Egg", a new government took over in Germany, (the Stresemann government) and with the financial  help of the U.S. Government was able to put Germany somewhat on its feet. A new currency was issued and times became tolerable for Germans until the 1929 worldwide financial collapse.  The new currency, the Rentenmark was issued at one for one billion (or trillion?) old Papiermarks on November 15,1923, just one week after the" beer hall putch." The German economy never became really strong again, just stable on its surface, but when foreign loans were called after the Great Depression hit, the German economy collapsed again and its democracy was put in a near death situation with death finally arriving in January, 1933.
Again I'm going to borrow a few paragraphs from an amazon.com reviewer from his good description of CABARET.

This is a very good movie, although deeply disturbing. Set in the great city of Berlin in 1931, a time of economic depression and political crisis, this movie constructs an image of the decadence and delusion of the late Weimar period as German society is plunging through a kind of moral and social decay into the nightmare of Nazism.
The film is based on "The Berlin Stories" by Christopher Isherwood (written between 1935 and 1939), who lived in the city in the early 1930s. He had seen both the decadence and the dangerous hunger for a kind of national "purification" among many "respectable" and "moral" middle class Germans, who already had been traumatized by military defeat, hyperinflation, and mass unemployment. The film, following Isherwood, weaves together the stories of the marginal characters who live in this troubled city at the very edge of the great moral catastrophe of the 20th centtury
Liza Minnelli is ... "Sally Bowles", an Americanized version of the British Sally who appears in Isherwood's book, and her energy (and visible angst)drive the film as other characters wander aimlessly through a narrative heading all the time towards disaster. Michael York is ... "Brian", the fictional stand-in for Isherwood himself, and the other characters present believable and even moving representations of people wandering through the impending nightmare as through a fog.
The nightmare itself is suggested by the increasing visibility of the Brownshirts and the sinister swastika, the authentic posters and grafitti from the period, and the passing visual allusion to the street fights and storm troopers. These allusions effectively evoke the sense of uneasiness and danger in the air, an effect reinforced by Sally's deep desire to scream her heart out. The smug and complacent self-assurance of the conservative aristocrat Maximilien, played by Helmut Griem, provides a clue to the almost wilfull blindness of even (perhaps especially) educated Germans to the moral danger posed by the Nazi movement. The anti-Semitism of the movement is also effectively displayed from several angles, most movingly through the love story between Fritz and Natalia.
... the strangest character is the Master of Ceremonies at the Kit Kat Klub, played brilliantly by Joel Grey. His character has a sinister ambiguity; is he mocking the Nazis by his farcical musical satires, or rather is he reinforcing the anti-Semitic prejudices of his audience through such pieces as, "If you could see her as I do . . ."? Is his decadence ignoring the danger and plunging his head like an ostrich into the sand, or is it a critical commentary on the pseudo-morality that worries about cabarets while ignoring Nazis?

By Scott Grau "avid reader" link

CABARET was released in 1972 ; THE SERPENT'S EGG in 1977. CABARET was a great critical and commercial success, won several Academy Awards losing out to THE GODFATHER for Best Picture. It is considered by many to be one of the greatest musicals ever made,
THE SERPENT'S EGG was a commercial failure as well as a critical failure on its release, ( I believe it was more successful in Europe than the U.S.) although as it ages its worth is being reconsidered by many and I feel it has aged well.
I first saw CABARET around 1973 and I liked it well enough; classy Bob Fosse presentation, great songs, Lisa Minnelli, Joel Grey, traces of seriousness- what's not to like. However, it soon went into storage in the archives of my brain.
I first saw the SERPENT'S EGG  pre-release, about 1977, and I was bowled over by it. The fact that I liked it was a curse for the film! But over the years, 2 or 3 times, my ex-wife and I would rent a 16mm version of the film, I'd bring a projector home from my cinema, (no home video in those days) and we would have several friends over to watch and discuss the film. If it told you that I remembered those discussions in detail I'd be lying; thirty years is a long time.
Recently I was discussing Bergman with my current wife and I mentioned THE SERPENT'S EGG which she didn't know. I ordered a copy of the film and it lay around our house for 6 months or so until one Saturday evening she decided to play it. I was busy with my computer, but I was kind of watching out of the corner of my eye and became fascinated again. I  mentioned that on ET and later on suggested that we do a film blog and here we are at the first.
We can have a lazy two day discussion of these films so I won't go into too much detail at this point. I will just give my general impression of these films and explain why I feel THE SERPENT'S EGG is a very important film and why CABARET does not seem so important now.

THE SERPENT'S EGG reeks of  devastation, darkness, misery and collapse; the collapse of possibly the most civilized county in the world at that time.  The country of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Nietzschie, and Einstein to name a few of its illustrious citizens.  A Germany turned on its head.  The line in the film, which to me best describes this  is when the police inspector is telling Abel Rosenberg about his visit to his old mother in the country.  He went to the railroad station and discovered that there were no timetables; there were trains but no timetables. He says to Rosenberg: "Rosenberg, can you imagine a Germany without timetables?" But that's just a cruel joke, Imagine taking a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a carton of milk if you can find one. I can't remember seeing one ray of sunshine in this film.
I am not talking about an intellectual appreciation of this devastation which would lead, in a short eight or nine years, to the German people's acceptance of a  Nazi government led by Adolph Hitler. I am talking about Bergman  punching us in the gut so hard that after seeing the film you feel that you've spent a week in Weimar Germany and can understand in your bones how Germany was able to turn to Hitler.
The arrival of violent anti semitism is evident throughout the film, fifteen years before Kristallnacht.. One of the most chilling scenes is the violent and sadistic attack upon the Jewish owner of the cabaret where Manuela worked and then the burning of the cabaret. This was done by one of the right wing Nazi street gangs that were patrolling Germany at the time. ( I'm not sure if this gang was one of the precursors to the "brownshirts"- someone help me on this.)

The total madness was further illustrated when a drunk Abel, himself a Jew, throws a cobblestone through the window of a Jewish shopkeeper and his wife and then beats them. He seems to be very angry at "the stupid Jews" for bringing all this trouble upon him. (See his conversation with the circus owner at the fancy Berlin restaurant which surprisingly, still existed in the midst of all this economic misery. I guess such opulence surrounded by poverty is not so surprising after all-I refer to the current U.S.A.)
There's plenty more here, eg., The mad scientist Hans with his experiments on people that invariably led to their violent deaths; the wonderful cinematography of Sven Nyqvist, etc.,etc. But I will leave them for the group discussion.

A prominent question of the post war generation referring to Nazism and the Holocaust was "how could that have happened in Germany?"  When I first saw this film I thought that  it gave us  important clues as to why Germany "went crazy" starting eight years later in 1933; a craziness which was to continue until its almost total destruction in 1944. (As an aside, I submit that America was not that far from a national insanity five or six years ago; one more terrorist attack could have triggered it given the leaders who were in power at the time  who would have been willing to exploit it.)

I'll speak a bit about CABARET. When I saw it the first time it was several years prior to the release of THE SERPENTS EGG. And it was special. Lisa Minnelli and Joel Grey are great performers. Bob Fosse is a great director of musicals.  There's always a Nazi or two in the background. And when the young man gets up a the country festival and starts to sing "TOMORROW BELONGS TO ME" and the all festival attendees rise and join in I have to admit it made me squeamish. Well, we all know what was coming not too long after; this is 1931 after all.
But after all is said and done, CABARET is still "Hollywood." Although THE SERPENTS EGG  was financed and produced by DeLorentis, and was made with the biggest budget Bergman ever had,  one cannot  say that the film is "Hollywood."

So I'll close my portion here. While  I've only touched on a fraction of the things that we can discuss  I hope that I have provided a good springboard from which to enter into a lively discussion.

Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
I have an old book of reviews by Pauline Kael in which she describes "The Serpent's Egg" gloating over it's 20-20 hindsight. For me, it's the worst movie Bergman ever made.

Most people have never seen the early Bergmans like "Secrets of Women," when his cinematographer was still the great Gunnar Fischer. Highly recommended for anyone who wants to claim a passing acquaintance with Western culture!

"Dodo" means "doodoo" in Hungarian.

by Bogach Krasavitz (bogachkrasavitz@mail.ru) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 12:47:29 AM EST
I think you're referring to this

The Serpent's Egg
Germany-US (1978): Drama
120 min, Rated R, Color, Available on videocassette

Set in Berlin in 1923, this Ingmar Bergman film, made in English in Munich, is about a Jewish-American trapeze artist (David Carradine) and his sister-in-law (Liv Ullmann), who are entrapped by a mad doctor (Heinz Bennent)--a prophet who dreams of what the Nazis will accomplish in the 30s. The movie, which fills the screen with images of fear and blood, of head-splitting pain and death, and then throws in gothic political theories, is a crackpot tragedy. Everything is strained, insufficient, underfelt. Cinematography by Sven Nykvist.
For a more extended discussion, see Pauline Kael's book When the Lights Go Down.

I don't understand what "20-20 hindsight means." Isn't the attempt to understand history always done with 20-20 hindsight?
Vincent Canby of the New York Times was also bewildered by the film but was hesitant to atack it outright because it was Bergman. He thought that there was a possibility that he didn't understand it. I don't have access to the Time's archives any more so I can't link to it.
I don't know if Bergman's earlier films are available today; if they are perhaps you would like to moderate a discussion on them in autumn.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 03:21:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't find Kael's book to give an exact quote, but what I think she meant was that Bergman had imposed an after-the-fact vision of how it was on the pre-Nazizeit. As well as I can remember The Serpent's Egg, it actually shows a back-lit serpent's egg with the outline of all its adult shape already visible.

I don't any survivors from the Nazi period, but in Russia it isn't hard to find an old grandma who has girlish memories of the Stalin era, and it looked like nothing. In the boondocks, nothing but scarcity and boredom, and in Moscow, the Bolshoi and the Moscow Art Theatre still playing Chekhov.

I think Kael meant that Bergman used 20-20 hindsight to make everything a lot more obvious than it really was, and that's how I saw it, too.

"Dodo" means "doodoo" in Hungarian.

by Bogach Krasavitz (bogachkrasavitz@mail.ru) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:36:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just found this quote from Bergman, which I had not seen before, and which is quite interesting.

"If I had created the city of my dreams, a city that does not exist and never has, and yet manifests itself acutely with smells and loud sounds, if I had created that city, not only would I have been moving in it with total freedom and an absolute sense of belonging but also, more important, I would have brought the audience with me into an alien but secretly familiar world. In The Serpent's Egg, however, I ventured into a Berlin that nobody recognized, not even I."
-- Ingmar Bergman, The Magic Lantern


I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 05:01:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Link

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 05:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've known several people who survived the Nazi concentration camps but I met only one who was in Germany in the thirties, who was willing to speak about it, and who described "Kristallnacht" to me. From her point of view, as a young Jewish girl, I think the reality was far worse than as depicted in THE SERPENT'S EGG.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 05:09:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kristallnacht

The Nazis were elected to power on March 5th 1933, but Hitler did not gain absolute power until he succeeded in passing the Enabling act on March 23rd. Jewish leaders worldwide, in combination with powerful Jewish international financiers immediately launched a boycott of Germany with the express purpose of crippling its already precarious economy, such that the London Daily Express newspaper carried the headline Judea Declares War on Germany - Jews of all the world unite in action the following day (Friday March 24th 1933). This rendered Jews living in Germany 'aliens', and so there began state-sponsored antisemitic persecution which became progressively harsher so that, by 1938, Jews had been almost completely excluded from German social and political life.


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 06:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As well as I can remember The Serpent's Egg, it actually shows a back-lit serpent's egg with the outline of all its adult shape already visible.

That's a line spoken by the mad doctor, not an image...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 06:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Vincent Canby of the New York Times was also bewildered by the film but was hesitant to atack it outright because it was Bergman. He thought that there was a possibility that he didn't understand it. I don't have access to the Time's archives any more so I can't link to it.

In this review he doesn't say he doesn't understand it, he 's very clear and damning; he was not so much "bewildered" by it, as very disappointed:

"The Serpent's Egg" is the darkest, most barren Bergman film since "Shame," and the windiest, most banal since "The Touch,"
...

It is Bergman's point that Abel and Manuela, in this week in which they attempt to survive in Berlin, witness the "nesting" of the serpent's egg, the embryo that 10 years later will hatch Hitler, the Nazis, the holocaust, World War II and all the evils we know eventually to have come forth.

The audience, unfortunately, is way ahead of the movie's political forecast, which might not be fatal if Bergman's characters provided any particular insights, or interest. They don't.
...

Mostly, "The Serpent's Egg" is a movie of beautifully photographed weather and handsome period sets and costumes that encase characters who remain as anonymous as the bodies in a morgue. It's dead.

NYT

I have to say I agree with Canby, and Roger Ebert:

Bergman strains for impact, giving us scenes obviously meant to be forewarnings of the Nazi genocide, the death camps, and their witch doctors. He looks emptiness in the face, and it outstares him. He hurls himself at this material, using excesses of style and content we've never seen from him before, but the subject defeats him. Maybe that's what he's admitting at the end, when the narrator remarks that the Carradine character "escaped from his police escort on the way to the train station, disappeared, and was never seen or heard from again." A frustrating ending for a sterile film.

Ebert

The majority of critics listed on Rotten tomatoes also panned it - it got 18% approval.

Despite reservations, having read some negative things about the film when you first suggested it, I dutifully bought the DVD and hoped there might be redeeming things in it. There weren't, it was generally tedious, melodramatic at times and had nothing new or interesting to say about the period. Very sad, since films like 7th Seal and Wild Strawberries are amongst my favourite films. This egg is decidedly off :-)

Fortunately I viewed it first, so I now have the pleasure (and relief) of viewing Cabaret again.


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 09:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have located the Vincent Canby review on my hard disk (I forgot it was there) from the New York Times dated January 29,1978. I don't see any of the language that you quote. Do you have a link?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 10:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I included a link at the bottom, "NYT"  which seems to work - and the quotation is from that, Canby's review January 27, 1978.

Full url:
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9F01E3DF1E3EE632A25754C2A9679C946990D6CF

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 10:19:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have e mailed to you a copy of the Canby review which is dated two days after the one you cite. Maybe the NY theatre owner put pressure on the Times to have Canby moderate his views.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 10:34:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found your link. The review you link to was written on January 27, 1978. The review I have, which i got from the NY Times archives, was written on January 29,1978. They are not the same. Its in Adobe Acrobat so as soon as I learn to cut and paste in Acrobat I will post some parts here.


I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 10:20:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How odd, both from Canby ? That was the one that came up from their archives when I did a search. I'd be surprised if he wrote two different reviews only two days apart - the one I linked to on the site is quite clear in its disappointment.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 11:00:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it doesn't change the fact that you hated the film but it does substantiate the accuracy of my statement about Canby, above.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 11:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, it only substantiates it if Canby changed his mind two day later - and have you got the link ? But it doesn't all just rest on Canby, though he seems to be typical in the review on the NYT site; Ebert had a similar negative view, as I pointed out, and so did most of the critics listed on Rotten Tomatoes.

But, most telling, I would have thought, is that Bergman himself thinks it was a failure, but he values the experience of making it as a "learning experience":

It didn't hit me until much later - The Serpent's Egg was a substantial failure. I made myself immune to the rather tepid reaction from the critics. I remained optimistic, refusing to see the film what it was. After the film release, my life began to calm down; then I painfully realized the serious extent of my failure. Still, I do not regret for a moment making The Serpent's Egg; it was a healthy learning experience.

Ingmar Bergman in Images

http://www.ingmarbergman.se/page.asp?guid=9985262E-C8C2-4851-92F2-4CFDE0D11CFB



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 03:20:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's the link to the point where you have to pay to see. I used to subscribe to the Times columnists so I got the archives free. When they stopped charging for the columnists I lost the archives.
Link

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 03:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not going to pay to read another version of Canby's review - why not quote the bits you think are significantly different from the bits I quoted? But, more importantly, as I said, it doesn't all rest on Canby's review anyway, most other critics panned it too, see Roger Ebert  link, I gave, and the others at Rotten Tomatoes film review site:

http://uk.rottentomatoes.com/m/serpents_egg/?sortby=source&critic=columns

and Bergman's own view - do you think he was wrong that it was a failure ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:13:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted Welch:
do you think he was wrong that it was a failure ?

Of course I think he was wrong. that's the whole point of this diary.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, personally, I'd be more inclined to respect the views of the director, especially if the majority of film critics (including well-informed ones not at all against Bergman's films in general) agree with him.

But of course this isn't science - one cant' prove it's mistaken; if you got something from it, good for you. But in considering its general quality, it seems wise to take into account the film-maker's own opinion, if not the opinions of the majority of film critics.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is completely off topic, but welcome to ET.  (And thanks for the reminder to put Mandelstam on my reading list.) :)

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 11:06:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by whataboutbob on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 02:38:09 AM EST
Is this in lieu of a photo blog, or have we just not had our coffee yet? </snark>

No, really, are you trying to make me cry? Because I will... :-(

Haven't seen the movie yet, so I shan't comment...

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 03:39:00 AM EST
Not that there's anything wrong with that... (Film Discussion Blogging)

;-)

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 03:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. There is no photo blog today. ("Yes we have no bananas") The photo blog will resume next Friday.
We thought that it was too much to have both on the same day; but perhaps we can reevaluate that thought.
The next film blog is on March 14th so we have time to reflect. The films for March 14th, discussion hosted by Sven Triloqvist, will be THE SEVEN SAMURAI and THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sniff,sniff.... O.K., but I guess that means I get to post double next week... heh, heh...
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:42:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found the stage play (musical) of Cabaret to be more moving and intimate (naturally) than the film, but I had the benefit of several decades and lots of reading/films about Germany between the experiences, as well.

The staging of Cabaret at the old Studio 54, with the audience seated cabaret-style, was very effective, and the role of the MC was by a new actor, Michael C. Hall, who many will recognize from Six Feet Under and Dexter.  This was his first role and he was solid perfect.  The homosexuality was addressed far more frankly than in the film, and in my remembrance the films of that time (Hollywood) didn't really touch on homosexuality without having a strong tone of perversion and bad consequences (I'm thinking Midnight Cowboy, for instance.)

I just ordered Serpent's Egg from NetFlix, so if this thread is still around a week from now, I'll jump in.  For what it's worth, I've found Richard J. Evans' "The Third Reich in Power" (book) to be one of the more fascinating, detailed and scholarly explorations of the many facets of life in Germany, political maneuverings and outright bullying and brutality that led to the Nazis' control of the country.

As to actual "war" films (not counting the Pacific front), I thought A Midnight Clear was far better than Saving Private Ryan, which bothered me in a number of ways.

Back to Lurking,
Karen in Austin

Thence comes our true nobility by grace, It was not willed us with our rank and place. Chaucer

by Wife of Bath (bakerswife13@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 07:19:41 AM EST
Thanks for your comment Karen. You are lucky to have seen the theatrical piece. Evidently, it's nothing like the movie.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 08:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At various times in my life, I liked both of these films.  Mostly because I was so terribly interested in that era.

I was born in 1949 so I obviously had no first-hand knowledge of WW II. But it effects were significant in my life in spite of the fact that I grew up in a small town in Minnesota.  The town was populated by Mennonites--a deeply religious sect of low-German-speaking pacifists.  Even though our family was Lutheran, my father in a fit of ecumenicism sent his children to the local Mennonite-run grade school.  

A block and a half from the house was a Mission Covenant church.  It was established by WW II vets who had been kicked out of their Mennonite churches for the sin of participating in a war.  One of them had been in on the liberation of Dachau and had pictures to prove it--a fact he managed to turn into a political career.

The Mennonites teach that it isn't enough to oppose war, efforts must be made to assist the victims of war.  So there were quite a few refugees in our little town.  A few houses down from ours lived two ugly women with their large ugly daughter.  She had been conceived during a raping orgy when the Red Army stormed though their town.  One night she woke up the whole neighborhood screaming from a terrible nightmare.

My father had spent WW II in a seminary.  Both of my grandfathers had worked hard to pass the laws Roosevelt broke when he started to assist England.  All of them were part of the anti-interventionist traditions of the American Midwest.  My father summed up his opposition to American participation in WW II, "There are practical reasons to stay out of any war you can--someone has to pick up the pieces when the insane have killed enough."

Coming from a town of German-speaking pacifists, and having a Swedish Lutheran father who looked at German culture as the mother culture, the question of how such people could have become Nazis became a passion of mine.  On my first trip to Europe, I went to visit Dachau.  I have read hundreds of books on the subject.  

And of course, these movies.  The Serpent's Egg was an important movie for me because it was made by another Lutheran PK who thought highly of German culture.  In fact, Bergman was farmed out to German "parents" during his childhood.  Supposedly, his summer parents were enthusiastic Nazis,  So I'll bet Bergman's questions were much like mine--times 10!

Cabaret was another matter.  Joel Grey and Liza Minnelli were sensational.  The sets, costumes, cinematography, and choreography were brilliant.  The political analysis, however, was beneath pathetic.  I think of this movie and remember Liza telling this goofy guy that the way to win the heart of the rich woman was to "pounce."

And by the way, after years of thinking about this subject I can sum up my answer to the question of "how could Germans become Nazis?" in one word.  So I am at peace on this.   I think about other matters these days.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 07:45:53 AM EST
As always, a very interesting commentary from you techno. Are you able to tell us the "one word?"

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 08:42:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In fact, Bergman was farmed out to German "parents" during his childhood.  Supposedly, his summer parents were enthusiastic Nazis,  So I'll bet Bergman's questions were much like mine--times 10!

Not at all:

Eighty-one-year-old director Ingmar Bergman is being quoted in a Swedish tabloid, Expressen, that he was a Nazi sympathizer and admirer of Adolf Hitler in his youth. According to the tabloid, Bergman has given an interview to writer Maria-Pia Boethius for a book, Honor and Conscience, which questions whether Sweden was actually neutral during World War II.

In that interview, Bergman reportedly stated that when he first visited Germany in 1936, "The Nazism I had seen seemed fun and youthful" -- even, apparently, when he watched his brother and friends attack the house of a Jew, painting the walls with swastikas. His attitude changed only after the war ended, he confessed. "When the doors to the concentration camps were thrown open, at first I did not want to believe my eyes. When the truth came out it was a hideous shock for me. In a brutal and violent way I was suddenly ripped of my innocence."

http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/1999-09-08#film4

Doubtless the film reflects his own sense of guilt about this youthful mistake. He certainly didn't have 20-20 political vision then - but then, neither did many adults at the time in Germany, UK, US, etc.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 08:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was not aware that Bergman had spent time in Nazi Germany. However, I don't understand why the information you cite is contradictory to what techno said.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 09:17:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I was not aware that Bergman had spent time in Nazi Germany.

It is rather important - and not only that he spent time there, but that he admired the Nazis. Hence his reluctance to believe, even at the end of WWII, the news about the camps and subsequent guilt.

techno:

Coming from a town of German-speaking pacifists, and having a Swedish Lutheran father who looked at German culture as the mother culture, the question of how such people could have become Nazis became a passion of mine.
...
Supposedly, his summer parents were enthusiastic Nazis,  So I'll bet Bergman's questions were much like mine - times 10!

Bergman didn't have such questions, he was part of the problem, he was a Hitler fan - so knows how people could become Nazis.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 09:38:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry for some clumsy wording.  Early morning and all.

The question is, "How could such virtuous people commit such terrible crimes?" Bergman was sent to live with the sort of people who sponsor foreign visitors--upper middle class folks with reliable bourgeoisie virtues.  Bergman became a young Nazi simply because he wished to be a pleasant guest.

No wonder it took substantial evidence to convince him that folks like his hosts had helped perpetrate such moral monstrosities.

Anyway, when Serpent's Egg came out, I read about this story so also read two biographies about Bergman.  He came to "the question" quite differently from me (I was educated by people who referred to generic sinners as "the English" and deep down believed that the Lord's Prayer should be said in German.)  The people from my childhood were dealing with the question, "Is pacifism ALWAYS appropriate?"  No one was cheering for the Nazis in my past.

But as I read Bergman's bios, his questions about his childhood seemed VERY familiar.

I hope this clears up your questions.  I wasn't trying to be obscure.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 06:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are some rather unpubilcized aspects of Sweden's relationship to Nazi Germany 1935 - 1945.

"Sweden was a critical trading partner of Nazi Germany. Its exports of ball bearings to Germany were vitally important during the war, and for a time Sweden supplied Germany with 40 percent of its iron ore until other European sources reduced that dependency." (Eizenstat Report)

Huge sums were deposited in Sweden's 'neutral' banks during the period - Jewish assets from invasions including money, gold, jewellery and art.

Wiki background

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 06:26:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Iron ore part is the whole reason behind the Norwegian campaign. Britain and France were attempting to cut off Germany from its supply of Iron Ore, as the main railway for shipping Iron ore from the Swedish iron fields went out through Narvik in Norway.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 06:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have heard lurid tales of the evil committed by neutral countries for most of my life--especially when people discover I have a pacifist philosophy.

I have a simple response--what neutral country has EVER done ANYTHING during a war that is even remotely as evil as the actions by combatants?  For example, should you consider the English on the side of virtue, explain Dresden for me.  Or USA--explain Hiroshima.

Truth is, Sweden has less to apologize for than almost any nation on earth.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 09:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in recent times maybe, but if you go back to the 17th century, there you have the Swedish involvement in the 30 years war.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 09:53:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes indeed--the Swedes have a violent past.  I once read that the Swedish army has more captured battle flags than any other on earth.  

However, since they have not been in a war since 1814, one can safely say they have a culture that evolved--that GREW UP!

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 at 05:50:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was a rather more than that "Bergman became a young Nazi simply because he wished to be a pleasant guest." He genuinely admired Hitler, due in part to his right-wing father:

But he has now said he was impressed by the Nazi dictator after seeing him address a rally, reports the Swedish tabloid Expressen.

The young Bergman was on an exchange trip to Germany in 1936, staying with a Nazi family when he saw Hitler speak.

"Hitler was unbelievably charismatic. He electrified the crowd," said the Oscar-nominated film-maker.

Bergman describes his father as being ultra right-wing and his politics rubbed off on the whole family.

"The Nazism I had seen seemed fun and youthful," he admitted to the author. "The big threat were the Bolsheviks, who were hated."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/441057.stm



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 07:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good Lord, man.  You are talking about the actions of a child.  You had NO stupid ideas when YOU were 16?

The question of Bergman is, did he do anything useful with his life--in spite of his right-wing upbringing?

The answer is yes.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 09:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted is only pointing out a paradox imo that may inform critique of the movie. Sweden, as the brand we now know it, is historically as complex as the strained relationship that Finland had with Germany during three sub-wars on its territory - two as an ally, one as an enemy. All three conflicts were driven by Finland's Eastern neighbour, the Soviet Union.

I am a pacifist myself, but I also see it as a luxury, never tested by a threat to actual survival - as was the case for Finland and Finns from 1939 on.

Alvar Aalto was also a great man, but many of his contemporaries had a different view of him when he remained in the US for the duration of the Finnish defence wars after designing the Finnish Pavilion at the 1939 NY World's Fair.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 at 04:19:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You REALLY think being a pacifist is a luxury?  Apparently you haven't ever had to test your theories.

When I tried to "prove' my pacifism to Minnesota Local board #25 in the spring of 1970, I found it required a lot of damn courage to stand up to a superpower government fighting a war.  I was damn glad I had a childhood filled with pacifist training and a father who supported me or I would probably have never made it.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 at 06:01:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Techno, sorry but I don't think you understood what I wrote.

I admitted that I had not had to test my theories. And being forced to fght in a war of aggression that you do not support is somewhat different from defending your country, your nation and culture against a DIRECT attack - as was the case for Finns in 1939.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 at 07:01:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Short sentences about complex ideas tend to lead to misunderstanding.

But what I have learned about pacifism is that it is FAR more than a philosophy the teaches war is a bad idea.  Guys who refuse to fight in wars are sometimes simply lazy or otherwise do not wish to be inconvenienced.  True pacifism requires enormous courage and a lifelong commitment to changing the social structure so that warfare becomes unthinkable.  This is a huge job!  The Mennonites have been at it since the 1530s, for example.

You are absolutely correct about the situation the Finns found themselves in the Winter War.  It is damn hard to be a pacifist once the attack has started.  Notice how the Finns figured out how to avoid that situation ever since.  I consider the story of how Finland maintained her independence following WW II one of the great tales of human achievement in all of history.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 at 06:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As I said when I first introduced some information about his experience in Germany:

He certainly didn't have 20-20 political vision then - but then, neither did many adults at the time in Germany, UK, US, etc.

I wasn't condemning him, merely pointing to some facts - and these included that he was just being nice to his hosts but was an admirer of Hitler - relevant to his later attitude to this period and to the film he made about it. He clearly felt guilty about this himself, and only revealed his early enthusiasm for Hitler late in life.

I don't know why you assume these facts are put forward as a general judgment about him, as I had also said, I am a great admirer of films like the Seventh Seal, Wild Strawberries, etc. - but not this one (I agree with him about it).

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 at 12:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

correction:  

"included that he was NOT just being nice to his hosts"

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 at 12:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
do you hold the same opinions that you did at 15?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 09:55:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LEP,

Thank you for doing this.  I am sure this is a brilliant diary.  Unfortunately, I currently lack the mental capacity to read it; but when I'm recovered, I promise I will.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 11:25:41 AM EST
I received this email from our new Russian member,Bogach Krasavitz:
We were exchanging comments about Bergman and then suddenly the comment
 buttons disappeared. Most peculiar. Why am I not able to comment?

Can anyone help?


I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 11:38:15 AM EST
I blame Putin...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 11:43:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I sent you an email.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 11:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

His IP address was identified as matching three accounts created by Jacob Freeze which were disabled for spamming, sockpuppettry and ratings abuse.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 12:45:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh dear...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 12:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That boy does get around. Next thing you'll be telling me is that he's mmmm.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What a day this has been. Three of the next five moderators have not watched today's film. Poemless, I think, has watched it but she's justifiably distracted because gunmen are shooting anything that moves in her neck of the woods. Of the two people who hated the film, one is Jacab Freeze in disguise, and the other, Ted Welch read the wrong Vincent Canby review.
Perhaps Migeru can put this diary into hibernation until next Friday when hopefully, everyone will have watched the film.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:13:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that what you want to do?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:18:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you can let it go until 11 p.m. tonight, your time, and then announce that you'll that you'll put it into hibernation and revive it next Friday.
A lot of people who would be interested in the Film Blog have been too busy with the "Stop Blair" petition to prepare for it.
Does that sound OK to you?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why don't you leave the diary up?

We can probably bump it later.

I think it was a mistake not to run the photoblog today. Gioele should have done it since you weren't going to.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 02:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK. And the photo blog is easily remedied. We wont skip it next time we do the film blog.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 02:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was a joint decision since we wanted to see how things went with the film blog but this is a slightly unusual set of circumstances this week.  I wouldn't say it was a mistake but we can see how it goes next time with the film blog and photo blog running together.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 06:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's Friday!  I'm sure there will be more discussion over the weekend and maybe this evening too.  I've found it really interesting to read all of this.

I haven't watched the films yet but I intend to asap.  I've not been about much of this week and when I have, I've been doing a job application!  But I feel that I will get more out of the Serpent's Egg when I watch it from having read this diary.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This has been such a busy week with the Petition that linca and migeru have not had time to watch it, ceebs has just located the dvd, and sven is swamped at work. It's hard to have a discussion when not many  have watched the film. Another possibility is to leave it alone and do a diary rescue next week. I'll leave the decision to you and migeru.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Alright then. I just didn't want you be disheartened and run off sobbing into a pillow or anything.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:46:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No I will watch it tonight, I don't want you to feel discouraged either.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thats why I'malways telling my kids: "don't wait for the last minute."                                   Plan Ahea   d

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:53:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do they listen to you? or are you used to it? ;-)

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Raphael ignores me. estHer is quite disciplined, in fact, more so than I.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 01:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can discuss Cabaret, which I watched with Barbara a couple of weeks ago. I was meaning to watch Serpent's Egg lsat night but then Jérôme was going to be in the 10pm news and I don't like to insert advertising in my movies :-) Like ceebs, I'll probably get around to watching Serpent's Egg tonight.

I also wanted to write a review or Horem Pádem, a Czech film I watched with Barbara last weekend. And a diary around the Blair thing.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 02:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have them and haven't watched them either. Trying to over the weekend. As well as Memoirs of a Geisha, riding and caring for horses, decorating, getting some diaries lined up for next week and finishing a pile of changes for a project that has to be ready for Tuesday. Bring on Monday ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 05:03:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ted Welch read the wrong [sic] Vincent Canby review.

I think this is a bit misleading. I read the review by Canby on the NYT site - and gave the link, it's very negative - I think you have yet to provide a link to a different review by him of the same film.

But anyway, the negative criticism isn't confined to Canby, as you acknowledge; it's also shared by Ebert, a very respected film critic, and by the majority of critics listed on Rotten Tomatoes, only 18% having a positive view. Most telling of all , as I point out above, is that Bergman himself regarded as a failure, valuable to him only as a "learning experience":

It didn't hit me until much later - The Serpent's Egg was a substantial failure. I made myself immune to the rather tepid reaction from the critics. I remained optimistic, refusing to see the film what it was. After the film release, my life began to calm down; then I painfully realized the serious extent of my failure. Still, I do not regret for a moment making The Serpent's Egg; it was a healthy learning experience.

- Ingmar Bergman in Images

http://www.ingmarbergman.se/page.asp?guid=9985262E-C8C2-4851-92F2-4CFDE0D11CFB




Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 03:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted. I was just kidding you. Anyway, the link is above- but you'll have to pay to see the article. But why would you want to do that-I already sent it to you.
But it is very strange to see these two articles attributed to Vincent Canby. The are a different as night and day and written only two days apart.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ingmar Bergman Face to Face
Home | Film | Theatre | Writings | On Stage | Universe | Timeline | Search
På svenska | Larger textNormal text
Film <  The Serpent's Egg < Reviews and comments
The Serpent's Egg

Reviews and comments

Given the film's reputation as an absolute turkey - fuelled in no small part by Bergman's own self-deprecations - it comes as something of a surprise to discover that the contemporary Swedish reviews were actually rather positive.

"No matter. Ingmar Bergman's first film made abroad has a power that does not derive from speculation or distorted vision, but from simplicity and its physical watchability. It aims at the middle ground and hits the spot. Franz Josef Strauss, who is juggling some serpent's eggs down in Munich, should perhaps for safety's sake be given a couple of free tickets to the West German premiere. As per the domestic policy motto: lead us not into temptation."
- Jurgen Schildt in Aftonbladet

"He shines as a horror film director, turning the film's climax into an unremitting assault on the nerves. This is no mean feat from Bergman the Swede, and David Carradine and Liv Ullmann play their drowning couple with sensitivity and assurance, assisted by Gert Fröbe's splendid monster of a policeman. The problem is that it all gets a little too much of a good thing, a little too much spurting blood and polished violence as entertainment. If Bergman wants to warn us about our own serpent's eggs - which he probably does - perhaps scaring people out of their wits is not a good way to go about it."
- Hanserik Hjertén in Dagens Nyheter

"It may sound like a film that is as black as night. There are no discernible smiles, and Bergman really is not joking when he says that he has made his first horror film: deep inside the nightmare dwells evil itself, a kinsman of Doktor Mabuse, the early German cinema's premonition of what was to come. But the power of its execution masks the darkness of its vision: there is literally one hell of a vitality in Ingmar Bergman's exile film that stems from clear-sightedness, experience and rage. In the world of art these are glowing qualities - they illuminate The Serpent's Egg, making it a masterpiece among films."
- Lasse Bergström in Expressen

"The opening of The Serpent's Egg is masterly. The contrast between poverty and luxury, between the depths of depression and a hectic life of pleasure is portrayed with a tremendous power of suggestion that precludes naivety, conveying a cohesive feel of the inferno with an overall impression of sickness. The film's weakness becomes apparent when Heinz Bennent appears as the cynical Professor Vergérus. In the true spirit of a spy thriller, mystery is heaped on mystery, leading via endless Kafkaesque corridors to the chamber where human experiments are carried out. Here it is that, by looking through the shell of the egg, one can divine the reptile's future birth. Perhaps there is no greater task for a filmmaker than to depict the origin of evil. One can confidently declare that Ingmar Bergman has made a creditable attempt, but I am not sure that he is a truly accomplished embryologist."
- Åke Janzon in Svenska Dagbladet

This is a continuation of the the article that you have quoted just above. But enough of the dueling film reviews. Tell us why you think the film sucks.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.

by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:28:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 I already did - despite hoping that it might be better than some of the negative reviews I read when you suggested it - I found it to be miserable, generally tedious, the characters not engaging (especially Carradine - who looked as if he'd just woken up, as was the case, according to Bergman), not illuminating about the general situation ( apart from - it was very nasty - we know).

So, a few Swedish critics tried to find something in it, but even then we get:

 The problem is that it all gets a little too much of a good thing, a little too much spurting blood and polished violence as entertainment. If Bergman wants to warn us about our own serpent's eggs - which he probably does - perhaps scaring people out of their wits is not a good way to go about it.

[and damning with faint praise]

Perhaps there is no greater task for a filmmaker than to depict the origin of evil. One can confidently declare that Ingmar Bergman has made a creditable attempt, but I am not sure that he is a truly accomplished embryologist.



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An interesting comment from one of Bergman's producers - who I have known since before I came to Finland - he equated Bergman to Hitchcock in being emotionally challenged, and their treatment of their actors on stage and film as manipulation in the search for their own misplaced emotions. It wa said as a somewhat throwaway line, but seemed to me to be relevant, if not heartfelt.

Hitchcock described playing the audience as one would an organ. Bergman though, was more playing himself. He certainly got great loyalty out of his actors and technicians, but I suspect that 'genius' is often a compensation for a severe personality imbalance.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 05:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cf.:

Admittedly in awe of the director's talent and reputation, Carradine took the job more for a chance to work with Ullman, and his highly personal observations characterize Bergman as a master puppeteer; inexplicably practicing devilish mind-games and giving little support to the American actor. Ullman, sharply honest in the featurette "Away From Home," found too much money spawned egregious power trips - evidenced, for example, in the film's recreated sets of Berlin - and the intimate filming experiences she enjoyed in Bergman's past work were impossible in such an epic production...

http://www.kqek.com/dvd_reviews/s/2843_SerpentsEgg.htm



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 06:58:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bergman preferred the intimacy of theatre and small film 'sets' precisely, as your quote points out, because he could control the mind games on a limited board. In a bigger studio setting there were probably too many logistic considerations for the games to be totally under his control.

Donner BTW produced 'Fanny & Alexander' which was a logistic nightmare, but as Jörn himself is a very experienced director, I guess (but don't know) that he ensured that Bergman could focus on his existentialist game theories ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 07:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boom, Headshot!

There are a lot of people out there who treat the web like a video game. Some of them are funny, some are obnoxious.

/shouldn't even talk about this

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 08:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I for one give high praise to both movies. In the first movie, IMHO, Carradine's character Rosenberg is symbolized by a mixture of Jewish guilt for lack of resistsnce to the holocaust and Bergman's own guilty conscience for enjoying participating/veiwing of a crystalnacht inicident.

This first point can be seen early in the movie when Carradine sees what we suppose to be a couple of older Jewish men being beaten by a small gang. As the Jewish pleas for help are ignored by passing policeman, Carradine's character not only does not come to the aid of those being attacked, he panics and runs like the wind though no one is paying him any mind. This scene epitomizes the very real fear of Jewish life in Europe for the centuries before. This survival instinct of not causing trouble and not resisting injustices preyed upon the Jewish community certainly did not come in handy during the Holocaust to come.

In the other scene also mentioned above in LEP's post, Carradine attacks a shop owned by an elderly Jewish couple. While the obvious inference is to look at Rosenberg's self-hatred for being Jewish, I think there is also an autobiographical element for Bergman.  During the attack and the aftermath where the old woman is hurtling herself against Rosenberg, Rosenberg can not stop laughing.  This scene is a revisitation of Bergman's own mind during the attacks he witnessed, as described in a previous post where he said he was having a good time.

If you really want to do some Weimar Republic action may I suggest the 15 and a half hour masterpiece of Berlin Alexanderplatz (Sp), which describes the plummeting descent of one German man in 1929. ok back to work

"Looking for my Lo and Behold" The Band

by the misunderestimated on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 03:48:03 PM EST
Saying that a character symbolizes something important, doesn't entail that the film is well-made. The character does not come over as very engaging ( as various critics note - may be partly because he was dozing off a lot while the film was being made - as Bergman says) and the breaking the window episode seems melodramatic and hardly enlightening about the general situation.

I'm not surprised that Bergman considered it to be a failure (see earlier comments), I am surprised that others seem to think this is a good film - especially compared with some of Bergman's earlier films, generally regarded as masterpieces.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:04:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that this is not one of Bergamn's best films. At times it gives a feeling of some slow plodding turtle trying to cross a road. Somehow though, in the parallell universe hovering around our great turtle hero Rosenburg is this impending horrror that floats invisibly never leaving him a moments peace. That while our hero is very unengaging, the forces around him are not.

IMHO the unenegaing style of the Rosenberg character was done on purpose by Bergman. He is supposed to be a severly wihtdrawn/depressed person witnessing events and against his will he is constantly being drawn in. I found the movie interesting and worth viewing though I accpet that it has many flaws. Rest assured Mr Welch your veiwpoint is in the majority on this one.

"Looking for my Lo and Behold" The Band

by the misunderestimated on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 04:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'd argue it, even if I was alone in my opinion - but when most critics and the director himself agree - one does feel more confident that perhaps one is actually right :-)

while our hero is very unengaging, the forces around him are not.

But they're not; one of the impressive things about Cabaret is how it shows the Nazis' appeal, e.g. in the scene where they sing in an outdoor restaurant. At first it all seems quite pleasant and idealistic, the young men far from stereotyped Nazi monsters, then you pan down to the swastikas on their arms - but also see the way it affects ordinary people. A brilliant sequence - not at all simplistic, nor plodding in its message. Not to mention the far better cabaret scenes in general - those of Bergman are just trite caricatures in comparison.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 at 05:04:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that Cabaret is a better movie. I'm as big a fan of "two ladies and i'm the only one" as anyone. And yes the little blonde nazi kid singing in the garden is a great scene and the best scene of the movie Cabaret. But i still found the storyline of The Serpent's Egg engaging.  Cabaret not only takes palce in a different time, but also in a different frame of mind. The time of Cabaret depicts and concentrates more on the overflowing energy of change that is in the air and less on the misery occurring. While the times of the Serpent shows more the depressed overbearing lack of hope felt by Germany. Each film gives a symbo