Hey Obama: Afghanistan is lost too - blame Bush, not Europeans

by Jerome a Paris
Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 09:46:41 AM EST

My worst fears about Obama's foreign policy ideas are confirmed by his recent declarations on Afghanistan:


Obama Calls for Help from NATO Allies in Afghanistan

So far Obama hasn't said much about America's posture toward Europe, but the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination set a new tone on his campaign plane by telling reporters there had to be more give and take between Washington and its NATO allies.

"I've been very clear that we do need more support from them," he said, referring to NATO countries with troops in Afghanistan. "We also may need to lift some of the constraints that they have placed on their forces there."

Sounds like the usual "give and take": Europe gives and the US takes. How about actually thinking about the underlying policies, and put an end to the pointless - and now irredeemably lost - war in Afghanistan?


As a first note, don't take this as a Obama hit piece in the primary wars - Clinton is even worse on that topic, as the article makes clear:


These loud-and-clear statements follow a debate with his rival Hillary Clinton last Tuesday, when Clinton charged him with foot-dragging on Afghanistan as chairman of a Senate subcommittee on Europe. "He's held not one substantive hearing to do oversight, to figure out what we can do to actually have a stronger presence with NATO in Afghanistan," Clinton said at the debate.

Given that she's criticizing him for not being hawkish enough on Afghanistan, and given the current policies of the Bush administration, let it be clear that I am criticizing the most moderate of the candidates on the topic.

That said, and this is a criticism of political discourse in the US in general, the fact that the most dovish candidate still feels the need to brush up his credentials as a tough, military-wielding macho via the usual attacks on wimpy Europe should give you all pause.

So let's say it out loud:

The war in Afghanistan, or, more precisely, the occupation of Afghanistan, is lost.

Again.

The War in Afghanistan is lost

And it's the second war/occupation messed up by George W. Bush. The first president to lose two wars.

That should be the core message, and the lesson should be that warmongering, militarism and brute force do not work. Full stop.

The current fighting in Afghanistan (like that in Iraq) has only one purpose right now: push back into the future the moment of acknowledgement that America lost. Europeans are right to try not to participate in that charade, and not to sacrifice people (both theirs and Afghanis) to salvage a president's ego and the USA's belief in its own goodness.

President Bush went into reckless wars, lost them, and now America has to deal with that history (yes, just like the French have to deal with Algeria or collaboration during WWII). The way to deal with them is NOT to pretend that this past can be changed.

Because the result will be obvious: The next Democratic president will be blamed for defeat (when finally imposed by events), rather than Bush.

So the games around Afghanistan and NATO are just a pointless exercise in bullying the wimpy Europeans to delay the inevitable reckoning. And I have no doubt that the bullying will work to some extent, given that our leaders are either actual wimps, or actually desperate to serve as vassals to any US president. Sarkozy will sent more soldiers to Afghanistan this year, and we'll have a new Franco-American honeymoon on shared military tough-guy posturing, but the fact that such periods of officially good relations seem to happen only when France is blindly following the lead from Washington, and not when it criticizes insane policies, is quite noticeable...

Sarkozy can do that because there is no way for voters to stop him, given that he controls a compliant parliament for the next 4 years. The Germans are a different case: the authorisation to have the soldiers in Afghanistan must be renewed every year in parliament, and with elections looming, the deep impopularity of the pointless fighting killing and dying over there must be addressed head on, so the traditionally Atlanticist elites cannot do what they want.

The fact is - it's not just Bush that's impopular across the world (amongst populations - again, elites are a different crowd): it's a country willing to use military force so casually and so frequently all over the globe. A new president will be given the benefit of the doubt, but if s/he continues the same warmongering policies, the same causes will have the same effect, with another president.

And, frankly, I'm not sure even Obama sees that:


Still, Obama couched his challenge to Europe in a promise to do more listening. He addressed a sore point in trans-Atlantic relations by saying that an Obama presidency would pay attention to its European allies.
"It is also important for us to send a signal that we're going to be listening to them when it comes to policies that they find objectionable," he said, "Iraq being at the top of the list."

This shows a deep misunderstanding of what the "list" is. Iraq is not on that list. It was a catastrophic decision, but it's no longer a problem for anyone but America - and Iraqis. The US can remain bogged down over there for years, nobody else is really involved. The damage (to international law, to Western pretensions to talk about democracy and human rights, to Middle Eastern stability) is done and is pretty much irreversible now. We all live with it, whether US soldiers stay there or not.

No, real issues today are  climate change, runaway financial capitalism, Kosovo or Afghanistan. I have no idea what will happen on the first two, and am keeping an open mind on that, given that Obama's and Clinton's discourse on these topics have moved in the right direction. But on Afghanistan, Kosovo, and NATO's role therein, we're seeing more of the same: posturing, delusions of finding military solutions to political problems (and by "military", one should sadly understand "excessive bombing and shooting on sight"), and an overwhelming desire to see Europe fall in line behind jingoistic US policies.

Well, it's not going to work better than under Bush. The only difference is that, this time, the Democratic president will be blamed.

:: ::

Further recent reading on NATO, Afghanistan and Kosovo:

US vs Europe in 2009 by Jerome a Paris
Are Europeans Hiding in the Bush, or is Transatlantic Panacea to Come? by Kyle Atwell
An International Study Group for Afghanistan by Joerg in Berlin
Kosovo Independence and Press Freedom in Russia by Kyle Atwell
Europe's Kosovo mistakes by euamerican
Just another day in Belgrade by Magnifico
Modernising the British Army radically by The3rdColumn
Dr Kissinger Calls by afew
Our enemies have watches, but we have time by Helen
Kosovo declares independence by jandsm
The Afghanistan Problem by afew
Has America Betrayed the NATO Alliance? by Vigilante
In defence of NATO in Afghanistan by The3rdColumn
Afghanistan as Pretext for NATO Change: 2003 and Now by RadiumSoda
Condi Rice and Robert Gates contradict each other on Afghanistan by The3rdColumn
Afghanistan's killing fields by The3rdColumn

(I particularly recommend The Afghanistan Problem as a good summary)

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In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 09:06:29 AM EST
How do you define defeat in this war?

If anything than turning Afghanistan into a perfect little peaceful progressive democracy counts as defeat, then the war was lost before it began.

If the goal was kicking Taleban and al-Qaida ass, it seems to be going pretty well. The more of them we kill the happier I will be, and the better a place the world will be.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 07:45:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the goal was kicking Taleban and al-Qaida ass, it seems to be going pretty well.

No. It's not going pretty well even in this limited sense and it cannot go well until there is a stable, competent and somewhat legitimate government functioning everywhere in Afghanistan. Plus there is the issue of Pakistan northwest frontier that also requires a stable, competent and somewhat legitimate government functioning over there.

The more of them we kill the happier I will be, and the better a place the world will be.

May be satisfying at a primal level but perfectly useless and counterproductive if doing that spawns more of them and they keep coming back.

Anyway, there cannot be any type of success in the region until Saudi Arabia is dealt with one way or the other.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 08:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Getting stable competent and legitimate governments there is imposiible, especially if the wes tries to do it. Everything we touch lose any kind of legitimacy. Making sure al-Qaida can not use Afghanistan as a base is the best victory we can get.

Then maybe maybe an Afghan state, or several ones, will eventually reform. But the more we meddle with their domestic affairs, the smaller is the chance that will happen.

Keeping al-Qaida and the Taliban down is the best we can hope for.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
But the more we meddle with their domestic affairs, the smaller is the chance that will happen.

Starvid:

Keeping al-Qaida and the Taliban down is the best we can hope for.

Aren't these two statements contradictory?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not really. Keeping al-Qaida distracted is a bigger priority.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:51:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Distracted? now that's an interesting usage.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Bush and his tame monkeys don't seem to want to annihilate them, so I guess this is the second best.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 05:42:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you explain, what you think would Bush do, if he wanted to annihilate them? Nuclear carpet bombing?

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 06:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Focus all effort on Afghanistan instead of having everything bogged down in Iraq.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 09:26:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All in all that's a rather pathetic war aim isn't it.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 07:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The more of them we kill the happier I will be, and the better a place the world will be.

Why? What did the Taleban ever do to you? (Please don't say '911', as they had nothing to do with it and even offered to hand over the suspects upon the production of evidence against them.)

The world is full of people who are just as vile as the Taleban, who are in fact even worse. I don't see you calling for their heads on a plate. And it really isn't up to you, is it. Plenty of people in Afghanistan actually prefer the Taleban to the available options.

The US has done much greater harm to peoples across the world than the Taleban has ever managed. Shall I admit to my desire to cheer every time a US soldier gets blown to pieces, and not meet a chorus of boos and revulsion here on ET?

But I suppose it's OK to exterminate the Taleban, they must be just raghead vermin or something, and the ultimate evil, by definition. Otherwise it just wouldn't make sense.

by wing26 on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 10:18:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh.. Nothing to do with 9/11? Te Taliban refused to hand over al-Qaida. They harbored them. They deserve everything they get. They are the enemy, and on top of that they are absolute assholes. I don't shed any tears when Prince Harry calls in airstrikes on them.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seeing as under Bush's orders, more civilians were killed by the air force alone than civilians were killed in the US on 9/11 in the original campaign, should we  also demand the handing over of the Republican Party to face Justice? Under US law the Congress and senate are harboring them should we  find not shed any tears if a member of a foreign government was to support military strikes on the white house?

What makes my answer and yours different?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why only the Republican party, why not all voters for Bush in 2004. And it is not facing justice, but bombing them without individually bringing them to justice.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that was sad, sure. But it was about revenge. Hopefully countries harboring terrorists got the message.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And what do you answer, when Osama says, 9/11 is revenge for the US occupation of Saudi Arabia?

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or the 1991 gulf war. Or the support for Mubarak in Egypt (one of the high ranking AlQuaida guys was an Egypt)

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Geee...

Too bad the Americans are our friends and Osama is not. But I actually prefer it that way around.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't. I would prefer to be neutral.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With neutral I don't necessarily mean a passive bystander as the Swiss model, but in the ideal case actively working that on both sides violance isn't accapted as a tool of politics and compromises with which at least the moderate can live are worked out to drain with time the support of fundamentalistic opinions away.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:07:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So if your friend nearly drunkenly gets into a fight one night, you should automatically join him, rather than get him out of there till he's sober and has thought it through?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:02:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
Well, that was sad, sure. But it was about revenge.

So you're arguing that it would similarly be legitimate for the Afghani populace to inflict casualties inside America, after all it's about revenge.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:54:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure.

Or really, the queation does not make sense. This is international relations so the concept "legitimate" does not exist, except as a propaganda tool. Which is why having the UN on your side is a good thing.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:00:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I take it you've never read any documentation on the theory of "Just War", because that is all peppered with questions of Legitimacy of war in International relations. In fact it's only in International relations that legitimacy questions really make any sense at all.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:06:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm familiar with it and with "international law" in general. I've not found not a single ounce of realpolitik in it. Beyond the propaganda value.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 05:41:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because realpolitik always works, and is the measure of everything!

(...)

Aside of being morally questionable, your thinking is also rather inaccurate. People have a sense of justice. If wars are fought without legitimacy that has consequences for how people react. Like, say, the infractions against their sense of justice might lead them to become insurgents and start blowing stuff up.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 06:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Much as I would have wanted to refrain from commenting on the NATO-Afghanistan issue because I feel that most diarists here are terribly hostile to NATO's intervention in Afghanistan, something which I have defended, I couldn't help but be compelled to comment after nanne mentionned "If wars are fought without legitimacy"

On the question of LEGITIMACY:

But what about the UN mandate? Doesn't a UN mandate count for anything? Doesn't it confer legitimacy, say on the intervention by member nations of NATO in Afghanistan? Let us not forget that it was the govt in Kabul that sought that intervention.

When the US invaded Afghanistan to get back at the Taleban, Al-Qaeda and at every possible old and young Afghan leader, to me quite frankly, their act was not justifiable -- it was not a reason for invasion. I personally was opposed to the outright destruction of Afghanistan being perpetuated cowboy-like by America without so much as a thought for the civilians, children who would get caught in the crossfire. If NATO, which unfortunately counts the United States as one of its major members, fails in Afghanistan (and it may fail), in my opinion it will largely be on account of the conduct of the Afghanistan war that was waged from the time the United States invaded Afghanistan armed with the wrong purpose and deploying the wrong tactics, i.e., purely punitive measures, bomb and awe, destruction and revenge, etc.

However, once the Afghan govt obtained a UN mandate for the UN to intervene and NATO was appointed to execute that mission on behalf of the United Nations, that to me was conferring legitimacy on the said NATO intervention in Afghanistan, America notwithstading.

If, on the other hand, we cannot and don't want to accept that the particular UN mandate was legitimate in itself, then of course, that gives a totally different legitimacy color to the NATO member nations' intervention in Afghanistan. Sadly, this is where I differ with my highly-esteemed fellow 'diarists' -- either we accept a UN mandate as legitimate or not but we cannot accuse NATO of intervening in Afghanistan illegally. In that, we either support the United Nations or not. The UN is, in my humble opinion, one of the avenues we can take towards clarifying, or at the very least, towards helping sort out a political and sometimes moral dilemma that most nations and peoples face when the lives of millions of human beings are at stake.

If we believe we that our govts shouldn't or cannot trust the UN or should only support it halfway when the said intl body decides to confer a mission on an agency or another institution, on another nation or nations, groups of peoples, then I suppose we should be prepared to face more debacles in the future. At the moment, it is realistically the only international body that we can rightly call upon in the most legitimate manner to help nations resolve some of the most difficult political and security conflicts they face.

I accept that there is a strong chance that NATO might fail in Afghanistan and there is a plethora of reasons, beginning with lack of meaningful public support because of costs, moral dilemma, political ideologies, personal beliefs, and more, etc., etc., etc. Unfortunately, the United States has been on the ground much ahead of EU-NATO member nations, doing what they've always known best (harsh punitive measures, bomb and awe, destruction and revenge) so, if we all truly believe EU member nations are incapable of providing the necessary balance to slow down America's ardour for war and counterbalance the United States' supremacist doctrine, if we all believe these EU nations in NATO are not up to the task of reversing the tide of horror in Afghanistan, then I must agree with all of you, these EU member nations should pull out of Afghanistan illico and perhaps, Europeans should demand that their govts disband or withdraw NATO altogether immediately afterwards. (I believe in following up what a man, or woman for that matter, strongly believes with determined actions.)

Meanwhile, I think it is fair to ask those who are deeply concerned for Afghanistan to call on, nay, demand of the United Nations via their governments to apply international pressure on the government of Pres Hamid Karzai in Kabul and to require the Afghan govt to do more than what they are doing today in order to help alleviate very worried and concerned Europeans of their moral (and financial) burden and so that the European NGOs and military personnel stationed in Afghanistan can come back home soon!

by The3rdColumn on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 09:17:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
have you actually read Starvid's comments?

For him it is OK, when NATO does not help Afghanis, but just kills the Taleban and he clearly justifies the invasion, not just the nation building part. Of course the NATO mission has other goals than those which Starvid stated.

And to you comment, I think one can be in a way critical to the UN without blasting it. Maybe an intervention can be argued as legal, if it has UN support, but that doesn't mean, that we can't think it is wrong, and we don't have to support it, just because it is legal. I haven't seen too much people here demanding all the govs and MPs which have voted in their respective countries for the NATO mission to go to jail.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 10:02:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Martin, Thanks (for the "well said" even with the "but")...

Sorry, been busy in other threads and elsewhere -- haven't really checked this thread, part of the reason is it's become too long and tires my eyes scanning the posts.

Yes, I've just read some of his comments. I'd say his view on killing all the Taleban and never mind the rest was a bit extreme. To adopt that sort of strategy would be no more no less adopting the American way of doing things which was something I believe the majority here rejected outright -- me included and to think that my view on the matter may already be considered far too "rightish" for the sensitivities of most here (although I may be wrong.)

To set the record straight, it is my belief that every single decision, or at least the major ones to which the general public have direct access, made by any institution in the name of the citizens of a republic, a union or a federation of states, international or regional, national or local should be scrutinised and if warranted, criticised -- and this goes very much so for the UN. However, just to remind you, the tenor of my earlier post does pertain to the notion of not criticising the UN but rather to the legitimacy of the NATO intervention in Afghanistan.

by The3rdColumn on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 08:52:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ooops... does NOT pertain to the notion of not criticising the UN but to the legitimacy of the NATO intervention in Afghanistan.
by The3rdColumn on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 08:56:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now revenge is justification for war?  War is justified to ´send a message´?  Your points in this thread are very violent and unjustified.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._
by metavision on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since when has it become okay to kill people simply because they behave like assholes or complicit in war crimes (for whatever reason). With this logic, you could almost say that 9/11 was okay, too. Don't you see that?

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh... What do you think we should have been done with al-Qaida and the Taliban, if not kill them?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:53:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Taleban? none of our business. It's the internal politics of a nation state, Where do we get the right to chose another countries government.

 Al Quaeda? We could always have shown the evidence we had to the Taleban, and allowed a trial in a neutral country. After all if we're sop convinced we're right it wouldn't have hurt.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Trial in a neutral country?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well I suppose that bush "wasn't too concerned about him"  so A trial would just be an expense.  Why not a trial?

or is it just that you think there's nowhere sufficiently neutral?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even know from what side I should attack this. I mean it's so...

Like law matters an ounce in international relations! Like anyone would trust the verdict! Like al-Qaida wouldn't fight to the death against anyone who tried to arrest them! Like you could turn over evidence without compromising vast amounts of intelligence! Like the Americans would put their indepence in the hands of some international organization, whithout any kind of that precious legitimacy!

Et cetera ad infinitum.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 05:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
when it mattered. So around 1900.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 06:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If a state wishes to act against an individual, or organisation of Individuals, then they have an Obligation to prove their alegations. Otherwise, if a state isn't willing  to prove its case, then It's Murder Plain and simple. Last time I checked Al-Quaida wasn't a country so appealing to International relations dosn't cut it as a reason. as for American Independence, how does this remove American Independence, and why should US law extend to other countries without them being willing to show a proper range of evidence to obtain extradition?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 07:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here. Here it is:

Like law matters an ounce in international relations!

The core of the matter. Might makes right.

On this basis, terrorism, genocide and anything the fuck else you like is legal.

Insanity consists of doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting different results.

Vicious idiots and arrogant fools.

t! Like al-Qaida wouldn't fight to the death against anyone who tried to arrest them!

So they die. At least "we" would have  tried to do it right. Instead "we" decided to play their game, legitimising their rules, legitimising them as a worthy opponent of the "West".

Like you could turn over evidence without compromising vast amounts of intelligence!

What's it for if you can't use it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 08:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, yes. Or a sufficiently neutral US court, if such a thing still exists.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 04:17:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"What do you think we should have been done with al-Qaida and the Taliban, if not kill them?"

Step one might be to stop doing all the stuff that enables them to recruit new members. Like feeding the House of Saud jillions of dollars so they can run a reactionary government and harbor a huge population of unemployable young men. Like not arming and funding the Taliban in the first place as part of a previous crackpot plan to kick the Russians out of Afghanistan. Like not subsidizing western agriculture to the point where the third world farmers have to sell drugs to us to make any money. Like not invading a country because the ruler "tried to kill my daddy" despite the pleas of practically every other country.

With the current strategy, we're creating enemy soldiers faster than we can kill them.

by asdf on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 05:04:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We should of course do all those things too.

But in top of that, after 9/11 some people needed killing.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 05:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe now that we've had this awesome healing experience of having killed quite a few people, we can start thinking about what exactly we are doing that is serving which interests of ours - in, you know, the good old-fashioned 'rational policy' frame.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 05:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have prefered rational policy from the beginning, but Mr. Monkey made sure that wasn't going to happen. The world would have been a very different place if the President had been Clinton, Gore, Bush I or McCain.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 05:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]


by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 06:31:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Needed killing?

so whenever there was an IRA attack in the UK, it needed the RAF to drop a large bomb somewhere near the houses of supporters of NORAID?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 07:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"But in top of that, after 9/11 some people needed killing."

This is a pretty interesting comment. First off, the whole revenge thing is not exactly, you know, whatever. Secondly, if you want to kill people in revenge, you could choose between the perps, or their families, or maybe the (Saudi) government that provided their inspiration. But the U.S. decided to go after Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11.

Thirdly, there is a question of appropriate levels of response. In 9/11 there were about 3000 American fatalities, some of them more awful than others, and all televised (repeatedly). In Iraq so far we have killed over 3000 American soldiers, and wounded about 10,000 (and "wounded" in modern language essentially means "killed" because the minor sort of flesh wounds that used to pump up the casualty figures are mostly avoided because of the widespread use of body armor, the current wounded have no arms, legs, or faces), and we don't count mental wounds or long-term health problems among the casualties. So the true American total casualty figures are certainly over 20,000 people. And then we have killed somewhere between 100,000 and 1,000,000 Iraqis, depending on whose numbers you want to use. So the current response ratio to 9/11 is around, say, using 600,000:3000, about 200:1.

Is that enough revenge killing yet?

by asdf on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 08:24:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know as well as I do it's not.

Migeru:

"The war is wrong"

"3,000 Americans died on 9/11"

At that time, the body count in Iraq was reported to be 30,000.

"10 times more people have already died in Iraq. Is that not enough for you?"

"Whatever it takes to make America safe"



We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 08:29:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 08:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Realistically speaking? Since the Nuremberg trials. Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating for the death penalty; just stating the obvious.
by The3rdColumn on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 01:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'The Taleban' didn't refuse to hand over 'Al-Quaida'. It seems that you assume
  • Afghanistan under the Taleban was some kind of a normal state, in which some leaders have the full legitimicy from all supporters over the country in all their decisions
  • that requireing evidence for a charge is something obscene (you probably have on ET that the Taleban required evidence and a neutral international court)
  • that you and you alone decide how far back in the chain of causes people are held responisble (why not e.g. Jimmy Carter who has helped Osama to become so mighty holding responsible)
  • that a major war can be justified by a criminal action of a few, who have no legitimicy from the country (so what about the start of WW I)
  • that the war would have any positive effect with regard that they would change their hundreds of years old tradition of hospitality
  • that you can make a war that precise that only the Taleban, but not the non-Taleb population is hit


by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:42:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you trolling here or just being a vicious idiot? I can't work it out.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 11:03:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you serious?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 03:16:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're clearly having a neocon moment there.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 06:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely serious. Being happy about the death of other humans is the act of  a vicious idiot as far as I'm concerned.

I won't mourn the Taliban, any more than I'll mourn the troops that die in this mindlessly stupid "war", but I'm not happy when they die. I'm not even convinced they were notably unpleasant in the general scheme of things.

The whole thing is a tragic fuck-up as far as I'm concerned, caused precisely by the sort of world view that can write "The more of them we kill the happier I will be, and the better a place the world will be".

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 08:02:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even Stratfor started a rearguard PR action by claiming that Afghanistan is not a war that could be won; it's simply a holding action to deny Al Qaeda a sanctuary in which to prepare for more action. Taliban never mattered. Looks like "sour grapes"-like argument to me.

Al Qaeda, Afghanistan and the Good War
The U.S. war in Afghanistan often is seen as a "good war" even by those who oppose the U.S. involvement in Iraq. The Afghan war is in trouble, however. Whether that matters depends upon the status of al Qaeda.
by Sargon on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 08:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome,

Thanks a lot. Perfect illustration of how deep up their collective arse US political elites are, no matter which side of the spectrum they stand.

I kind of agree/disagree with the notion that the Afghanistan occupation is lost.

It will be if the US don't put real resources there and, for a start, stop behaving like complete morons (something they really need to do on many, many issues; they can't afford being morons any longer). But overwhelming force always win when there is a good cause to sustain it. The US neocon psychos are partially right when they try to practice revisionism for instance about the Vietnam War. The US would have won is they had gone all out. Where they demonstrate they are dangerous psychos is that they forget that there was no remotely good reason to fight in Vietnam in the first place. I think Afghanistan is different in this respect. There is a good reason to fight over there and if it's not done now, it will come back even worse.

Anyway, if Obama's approach to the issue is to dump on Europe, then, yes, it's lost. The US had their chance with Europe. NATO voted article 5 on September 12 2001 and confirmed the vote on October 4. The US walked away. Their decision. Their problem to deal with.

If Obama wants to revisit the issue, he will have three things to do: 1) apologize on all fours and forehead in the ground for the US shunning NATO and accept full responsibility for the mess, 2) restore the basic credibility of the US by holding the previous team accountable and show the allies that a Bush administration will never happen again and 3) commit serious resources to Afghanistan (not point talking if it's anything under 300,000 US combat troops) and to deal with the Saudis.

None of that is going to happen.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 08:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
None of it will happen, and yet Europe will go along anyway. Why? Because it's too easy to blame the US rather than hold the Euro Elite's feet to the fire?
by Upstate NY on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 09:10:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
None of that will happen, but no, I don't think Europe will go along.

Rather, Europe will watch from the sidelines, a fairly uninvolved and uninterested bystander.

Angela Merkel is already doing that with a lot of talent. Gordon has a lot of problems on his hands and Sarkozy will have to follow.

Looking at the polls, not just Sarkozy's but in comparison Fillon's, the population has already told him (with very good reasons) that it really doesn't like him to have ideas. The French voted for "Sarkozy the Doer, knees deep in the muck", not "Sarkozy the Grand Strategist". Big casting mistake. If Jerome and the polls are right about ground level opinions on the US, Sarkozy won't dare fart. The French don't wait for elections to give their opinions and make them heard.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 09:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What should Euro Elites do in your opinion?
I don't know too much about how the discussion looks in other countries, but actually the vast majority of Germans e.g. strongly disagrees with Francois with regard that it would be a good idea to send more forces to Afghanistan or that there ever was a really good reason to go there at the first place. So what people do is asking their elite to withdraw. The elites don't follow yet, but the troops who are going there are voluntary troops (they volunteer to go to Afganistan as far as I know), and they don't do much killing in general, so there is no urgent issue to get them away. If the elite starts to send troops into the south where they would kill more Afghanis, any party who would push for such a decision would massivly lose in the 2009 election, as there will be parties who are advocating withdrawel.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 09:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Elites should step down because they already kowtow too much to Washington.

They too are bought and paid for by corporations, just as American politician are.

Having a supra-bureaucracy of leaders that rise up through party structures is not optimal democracy.

When I look at the EU project, many of its pro-corporatist laws seem pretty onerous. Laws which are designed to allow media monopolies, for instance, or let's say laws that support the dissemination of genetically modified foods. Euro defense industry dealings.

by Upstate NY on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 10:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The Elites should step down..."

Nobody who would be better at doing their job really wants to do it as far as I see it.

"They too are bought and paid for by corporations, just as American politician are."

Some are, but in general they are not. I'm not at all sure that other people would be much less receptive to big capital offers. They are much more doing what the base wants than you seem to think.

"Having a supra-bureaucracy of leaders that rise up through party structures is not optimal democracy."

I don't know anything better.

"When I look at the EU project..."

Often people's fault. The EU parliament is much more direct responsible to the people and less easy influencable by corporations than the comisson and its bureaucracy. But many people don't want to give power to the parliament, because this would reduce national influence and would be clearly a step towards a superstate EU, which I have doubts that this is what a majority of people want. The EU project has some flaws, but it is a development in the right direction.


by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 08:38:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As easy a case can be made about the virtues of America democracy.

The problem is, both systems are corrupted by the powerful.

Europe is not an effective counterbalance for the US.

by Upstate NY on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 09:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Europe is not an effective counterbalance for the US."

Absolutely true. But it wasn't designed with the premise to be one. And while some parts of the system should be redesigned (but I actually don't object to a EU superstate which many people do) to make the EU more independent of the US in the future, not everything should be rebuild under the premise to counterbalance the US. It is as well not build to reduce bad Chinese influence in Africa. The EU has no single strongman position who can speak for Europeans, like the US president can for the Americans. Such a position would clearly help to counterbalance, but it would be against the general European way of doing things.
The EU has made war between some of the longest enemies in history impossible, the EU helps countries devasted by the real existing communism to master their situation in a difficult world. The EU saves cultural divergence, and offers a framework for common tasks as environmental protection in an atmosphere where national thinking of 'My country first' still plays a big role (don't take ETers as the common man), with people with different historic experiences and interpretations of it, languages and economies.

I think if liberal Americans hope that the EU will help them in the sense as to influence the US to become more in accordance with their position, they will always be disappointed. Phlegmatic apathy is the best you should hope for, everything else is bonus.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 10:35:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Often people's fault. The EU parliament is much more direct responsible to the people and less easy influencable by corporations than the comisson and its bureaucracy. But many people don't want to give power to the parliament, because this would reduce national influence and would be clearly a step towards a superstate EU, which I have doubts that this is what a majority of people want.

I have read this many times as the stated reason why the EU parliament does not have greater power within the EU structure. However, I have not often met people who would object to such things as giving the parliament greater power over appointing the commission or giving it the right to propose legislation. The parliament tends to poll highest of the EU institutions when people are asked about their confidence in the institutions.

I am now leaning towards the conclusion that it is our national politicians who prefer the current system. It gives them ample cover to blame Brussels for unpopular policies while keeping power in their own hands.

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 02:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but I wouldn't put it only on the national politicians power hungryness, although it is a factor.
Actually you can judge that probably better than me. In the parliament voting power is more appointed according to population size than in the comission, so in smaller countries it should be an bigger issue than in bigger ones.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 02:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'The parliament tends to poll highest of the EU institutions when people are asked about their confidence in the institutions.'

Maybe that's because the European Parliament is the only EU institution which, to most people, is readily understandable and recognizable. It appears to resemble the workings of a national parliament, which it does to a substantial degree. The members are known to the people of the country they represent, at least somewhat, speak their language, share aspects of their national identity, are directly chosen in elections. You need to follow a year-long course to understand how the rest of the EU works. Hardly anyone understands it, even reasonably informed people. Now there's a president coming of one commission or another. It's so difficult to  comprehend that the 'president' will be different from a national president. You have a parliament, you have a president. So what else does anyone need?

P.S. Obama is a national politician. I can't see him substantially diverging from the US nationalistic-imperialistic approach. Oh, the Elites. The term makes these people, whoever they are, seem like a choir of singing angels. Why don't we finally get down to Marxist earth and just call them the Ruling Class, which they are?

by Quentin on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 06:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I  have a distinct hunch that the use of 'elites' to designate an amorphous bunch of wealthy, powerful people, who I would call the ruling class, originated or, at least, first gained common usage in the United Kingdom.
by Quentin on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 06:11:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I agree.

The worth of fighting in Afghanistan is purely a personal opinion. And I totally disagree with the way it's done right now, by the way.

I think it would have been easy to get European opinions firmly on board right after 9/11, even Germany(?). But Bush really poisoned that well with his lies and his incompetence. It would take something incredibly spectacular from the US to turn that around now.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 11:04:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, you are right, I think directly after 9/11 it would have been possible to convince a majority of the European public.The media transported quite a part of the shock the Americans felt then and most people judge with their gut.
But therefore I doubt that this opinion could have been conserved until now, unless tremendous progress in the nation building could have given an ex post 'humanitarian justification' for it and
"3) commit serious resources to Afghanistan (not point talking if it's anything under 300,000 US combat troops)" will be interpreted as escalating the war.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 08:21:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The optimistic "yes we can" viewpoint might be for Europe to wait quietly until Obama is elected, then, when he calls up for military assistance, to explain to him a carefully thought out and widely agreed European approach to the Middle East. That might include things like a stronger effort to wean the west from ME oil, to stop arms sales, to apply pressure to Israel, Saudi Arabia, India, and Turkey to try to limit their disruptive behavior, and to generally try to make things better. (Better, that is, in the sense of allowing for local governments to come up with local solutions, instead of externally imposed solutions.)

Can Europe do this?

by asdf on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 01:39:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Likely mostly not. And 'The optimistic "yes we can" viewpoint' is for Americans, we have the pessimistic 'everything goes south' approach.

I'm not aware that there would be a widely agreed approach to the ME, other than talk only do nothing, which is tremendously better than the US approach of make it worse. But if a 'Yes, we can president' can be convinced to do just nothing?

On stronger efforts to reduce dependency of oil, I think any strong climate change policy will include that unintentionally. But that really is one of the points, where Europe really is trying to influence the US and the world.

Talk Obama into pressure Israel will as well not happen. I don't think Sarkozy will do it and I hope you understand that it is impossible for a German gov to ask for such a thing. To Turkey our elite tries to talk directly (neither very skilled, nor very successful; Erdogan has recently asked Turks living 3rd generation in Germany not to become Germans) and Saudi Arabia - well, if the fact that 9/11 included a number of Saudis and that doesn't do it, I don't know what Europeans shall matter. What has India done?

Anyhow, if the answer to Obama's request for troops is a non/no/nein, then I don't expect Obama to care much for any advice given to him.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 02:04:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
asdf:
a carefully thought out and widely agreed European approach
Come again?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 06:11:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not? It's a cheap way of making the Americans happy, and good exercise for the armed forces.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 08:50:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Francois in Paris:
The US neocon psychos are partially right when they try to practice revisionism for instance about the Vietnam War. The US would have won is they had gone all out.

Only if by "won" you mean "depopulate Vietnam".

The plural of anecdote is bullshit.

by generic on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 07:48:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Generic, stuff you quote mining up yours.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
by Francois in Paris on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 11:07:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You clearly stated that the US could have won the Vietnam war if they had gone all out. I don't think I have taken that out of context.
How do you propose the US could have won the war other than by nuclear carpet bombing? After Diem was assassinated there was really no significant support for the US in South Vietnam left. Also when dealing with the North there was the very real danger of drawing the Chinese into a full scale conflict.

The plural of anecdote is bullshit.
by generic on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 at 09:25:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've clearly stated that was no reason whatsoever to do it.

They and the soviets had a reason against Germany and the the US alone against Japan. They went all out and they won.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 01:20:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Francois in Paris:
I've clearly stated that was no reason whatsoever to do it.

I never implied that you had.
I simply disagree that the war could have been won, independently of any reason for or commitment to the war.
WW2 ended with the surrender of Germany and Japan. The Vietcong as an organization couldn't be made to surrender. To win Vietnam the Vietcong would have had to be destroyed, because there really was no other political faction that had any popular support whatsoever. The Vietcong couldn't be destroyed without an invasion of the North. Said invasion probably would have brought nuclear armed China into the war.

The plural of anecdote is bullshit.
by generic on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 12:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome,

By the way, the diary on Modernising the British Army radically does not speak of Afghanistan, Kosovo or NATO.

by The3rdColumn on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 07:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 
Even if your right; why bring it up now. After Tuesday; Obama will be the Democratic candidate for President and running against a genuine hero.

I know that may have very little influence on you intellectual Europeans but it very well might impact on Obama's ability to be elected.

So lets save the criticism for when he is actually President as opposed to having him adopt a position you are confident is right even though you very well may be wrong just for the sake of 'intellectual geopolitical masturbation conversation'.

And perhaps when he is President; he either may very well adopt your position or you may very well adopt his but until then-campaigning against a war hero who declined to be sent home from North Vietnam because he wanted to stay with his fellow soldiers is tough enough without adopting positions you would like on Afghanistan and Europe's non involvement.

by An American in London on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 09:24:00 AM EST
After the elections is before the elections. If a campaign rival is good enough reason to talk the opposite of what has to be done, facing a hostile right-wing press after the war will do it, too.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 11:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could anything demonstrate any better how totally fucked up the US debate on foreign policy is than this line of argument?

The candidate must lie about what his policy would be in order to get elected?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 12:18:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's deeply fucked up, but, unfortunately, there's a lot of truth to it, in my opinion.  I don't think the country is ready to throw in the towel on Afghanistan, at least not until bin Laden is killed or captured.

Now, if that can be done (and it'd help if President Shit-for-Brains actually gave a damn about it), the story would change dramatically.  Suddenly, the next president could declare victory and take the easy exit.  Whether he/she would is another question.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 07:51:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't Bin Laden die from lack of dialysis facilities some time in the winter of 2001/2? I mean, how long can someone with kidney failure survive in a cave in Tora Bora?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 06:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the CIA still comes up with really good videos from him. So either he is alive or the CIA is makeing the videos of BinLaden to keep a face for the enemy.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 at 06:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is absolutely right-we have to start debating the real issues rather than proxy issues.  Should we be there?  If not, should we pull back asap or steadily over some period.  Can we get help turning this over to some less divisive parties?  I don't know the best answers-I'd say yes, right now, and beg the UN to take over...but thats me.  But your point is exactly right, we cannot come to a good answer without talking about the issues without fear of the discourse.  There may not be a good answer anyway, but this skulking around the issue is shameful.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 08:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to admit, it worked for George Bush.

"I am a compassionate conservative. I believe the US should not be involved in using its military for international police work."

by Upstate NY on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 09:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Although I agree with you most of the time and certainly about the excessiveness all the time what would you propose as a real political solution without any military intervention, US  and/or Nato, when it comes to hot spots with millions of peoples' lives at risk like Darfur, Kosovo etc. ? How can you believe the same unreasonable people who would kill people on the basis of their religious or political differences could agree to a political solution without military intervention. Should Afghanistan go back to the days of Taliban rule where women are second class citizens and human rights are ignored? Should 'terrorist' groups be incubated by the Taliban? What is your poltical solution for the country?

We all know it is not the way the US has been acting but I am not sure poltical solutions can be accepted without the need sometimes for military intervention. Please clarify your thinking.

by An American in London on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 10:56:58 AM EST
And the situation of Afghani women is better now, how?
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 11:00:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
' We all now the ay to fo forward is not the way the US has been acting' but what would you propose?
by An American in London on Sat Mar 1st, 2008 at 11:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know. :-( But I know more bo