Making finance transparent

by Sven Triloqvist
Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 07:17:18 AM EST

I spent yesterday with an IT visionary pal who was requested by a major European government to find a way to make state budgeting more transparent. The government regularly publishes hundreds of pdfs from the Excel originals. As anyone knows who has transferred spreadsheets to Word or pdf, they just sit there. There's not much you can do to them except read them. What the government wanted was a) a state budget that could be easily translated into various worldwide accounting systems. B) a set of state budget modules and summaries that could easily be tested by other interested parties. c) an Open Source system. D) Automated processing of financial information to cut the laborious and costly processes of manual re-entry and comparison.


He demonstrated the method to them recently. They said "You can't do that!". He said "But I just did". They are adopting the new method, as are many other organizations.

It's called XBRL, for eXtensible Business Reporting Language. The drivers for the creation of this language emerged from the collapse of Enron and Parmalat. All the major international accounting firms are involved, as I understand.

XBRL is a language for the electronic communication of business and financial data which is revolutionising business reporting around the world.  It provides major benefits in the preparation, analysis and communication of business information.  It offers cost savings, greater efficiency and improved accuracy and reliability to all those involved in supplying or using financial data.

International accounting firms have been slapped sharply on their bottoms over the multibillion supernova collapses that brightened the start of this century. They are going to get an even bigger rollicking over the current bonfire of the vanities. XBRL is a dunce's hat.

XBRL is being developed by an international non-profit consortium of approximately 450 major companies, organisations and government agencies.  It is an open standard, free of licence fees.  It is already being put to practical use in a number of countries and implementations of XBRL are growing rapidly around the world.

The XBRL International website

XBRL will greatly assist regulators, because they can run the same models as the companies they regulate.

The idea behind XBRL is simple.  Instead of treating financial information as a block of text - as in a standard Internet page or a printed document - it provides an identifying tag for each individual item of data.  This is computer readable. For example, company net profit has its own unique tag.

The introduction of XBRL tags enables automated processing of business information by computer software, cutting out laborious and costly processes of manual re-entry and comparison.  Computers can treat XBRL data "intelligently": they can recognise the information in a XBRL document, select it, analyse it, store it, exchange it with other computers and present it automatically in a variety of ways for users.  XBRL greatly increases the speed of handling of financial data, reduces the chance of error and permits automatic checking of information.

Companies can use XBRL to save costs and streamline their processes for collecting and reporting financial information.  Consumers of financial data, including investors, analysts, financial institutions and regulators, can receive, find, compare and analyse data much more rapidly and efficiently if it is in XBRL format.

XBRL can handle data in different languages and accounting standards.  It can flexibly be adapted to meet different requirements and uses.  Data can be transformed into XBRL by suitable mapping tools or it can be generated in XBRL by appropriate software.

The specs of XBRL

Global Ledger Taxonomies for business. Global Ledger is system and reporting system independent.

Fine. The new system will save costs and speed comparisons and what-ifs. But there is much more to it. The financial systems of governments, companies and organizations will become more transparent. There will be far more consumers of financial data than investors, analysts and regulators. Opposition parties in government can quickly tinker with overall state spending plans.

But then there is the Cute Cat Theory of Activism.

The Web was invented so physicists could share research papers. Web 2.0 was invented so we could share cute pictures of our cats. The tools of Web 2.0, while designed for mundane uses, can be extremely powerful in the hands of digital activists, especially those in environments where free speech is limited.

This talk looks at creative uses of well-known tools to promote free speech in countries from Bahrain to China, and looks at ways in which the use of these tools helps evade internet censorship and promotes human rights issues to a wider audience.

I recommend that you read the whole presentation (includes vids)

Sufficiently usable read/write platforms will attract porn and activists. If there's no porn, the tool doesn't work. If there are no activists, it doesn't work well. Ethan Zuckerman

And then there is the 1/10/100 rule. This says that in any online forum, 1% will be activists, 10% will be commenters, and the rest will be lurkers. Sound familiar?

We spent dinner last night talking about e-democracy, as we have for more than 10 years when we infrequently meet. The potential role of XBRL gave us a glimmer of hope that one day we would see Citizen Tinkering. We have often talked about a system in which any citizen could see the effects of policy changes on the state budget in a user-friendly manner. So, if for instance, you think there should be more schools in rural areas, it would appear as a cost over time based on the parameters you give (how many schools, how large etc). That cost then has to be offset - more debt, more tax, state ownership sell off, etc. Take your pick.

It is a complex dream. But it is getting infinitesimally closer.

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I woud imagine that there will be a large and growing demand for XBRL talent in the near future

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 08:23:52 AM EST
This is an interesting, but pretty arcane area and XBRL doesn't even scratch the surface.

Common standards are all very well, but unfortunately accountancy takes place within Corporate silo's, and standards all too often get perverted to suit the proprietary systems and software foisted by corporate service providers on their unenthusiastic "partners" (aka clients).

Todd Boyle's  Ledgerism is light years ahead of most other things I have read in terms of accounting in the age of the Internet.

He came from the ground up to the idea of a Shared Transaction Repository whereas I was coming at it from a high level Market 3.0 perspective.

Unfortunately, we both couch our work in language largely inaccessible even to each other (we met in San Francisco a few years ago, and are meeting again in Seattle next month, I hope...), so what chance anyone else has, I don't know!

In plain English what we are both saying is that in a Peer to Peer world, Double Entry book-keeping is both unnecessary

Abolish Double Entry

and a cosmic waste of resources: Todd identified a $150 Billion Waste arising from fragmented and disconnected accounting silo's.

I see it from the point of view of an "Open Corporate" partnership as an optimal enterprise model - since within a partnership there is no "Profit" and no "Loss".

So a partnership's internal accounts could be looked upon as a "shared transaction repository", and I advocate simply extending the partnership/ "Open Corporate" to incorporate other stakeholders, such as suppliers, staff, and customers.

Interesting consequences if you do that: for instance VAT goes out of the window, and in fact the only remaining tax that still applies would be a "Value Transfer Tax".

I know Todd did some web accounting work in Norway during the DotCom boom, but that went "pear-shaped" and he has long since given up trying to convince people, gave up his accountancy and is now a community activist.

IMHO your mate might do well to check out Todd's work.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 08:33:57 AM EST
I knew you'd say that ;-) But as we have discussed many times, we need a very visible open corporate 'in business' that is more efficient, more flexible and more robust, and delivers acceptable returns/rewards/resources to the partners. Then people will see the point. Meanwhile existing organizations will become more transparent with XBRL.

BTW the silos still have to be audited, and it is interesting that all the accounting companies (huge number of them now LLPs, I note!!) have signed up to XBRL.

I talked about your background and ideas with my pal last night, and promised to send him more info - so this is perfect. Thanks.

Said pal is just starting a new official project called e-democracy and promised to send me links - I will forward them to you

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 08:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it's not a question of "either/or".

We have to get "there" from "here" - and XBRL is a step on the way - so it's really interesting that people like your mate are actually beginning to get somewhere...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 09:07:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed. His consultancy is a problem solver for today - but his seminars are much more radical on designing for the future.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 09:12:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A quick visit to the ledgerism site reveals that when you say
This is an interesting, but pretty arcane area and XBRL doesn't even scratch the surface.
you mean
REA is a continuing influence on the electronic commerce standard ebXML, with W.McCarthy actively involved in the standards committee. The competing XBRL GL standard however is at odds with the REA concept, as it closely mimics double-entry book-keeping.
where REA stands for Resources, Events, Agents.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 04:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting. But I confess I have difficulty keeping hold of anything to do with data management and organisation let alone taxonomies, ontologies and the rest.

I don't do detail ;-)

This

Uniform Economic Event Notification

is, I think, the key to it.

Essentially a "money message" or "value transfer message".

And then there's Ian Grigg's

Ricardian Contract

Ian being a top class crypto systems guy, among other things.

I can see intuitively that these concepts mesh at the core of a "market operating system" or generic "transaction engine", but I'm damned if I can synthesise them into a coherent conceptual whole.

What I can do is provide a protocol - a legal XML - that gives a framework within which it all comes together legally, and operates globally...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 04:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They are going to get an even bigger rollicking over the current bonfire of the vanities. XBRL is a dunce's hat.

Well they've been busy trying to standardise the financial world

FpML

for some time, of course, but I am not sure what good it did....

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 08:52:47 AM EST
Technology may make some things which were previously difficult or impossible to implement viable, but usually it is not technology that is the stumbling block.

Financial systems are opaque because there are those who benefit from the current system prefer it this way. A simple example from the US will illustrate.

The simple process of getting some funding for a local project (pork barrel spending) has been going on since the beginning of the republic. Over the past two decades it has morphed into a multi-billion dollar portion of the budget and now is called "earmarks". Many of these are inserted into the budget at the last minute, with no indication of who has done so, and with the recipient of the money obscured.

A "progressive" legislative effort has been made to set up an online database of all such earmarks with the name of the legislator attached to each request. Many of the biggest abusers of the system are fighting even this modest change.

Can technology fix corruption?

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 11:06:23 AM EST
rdf:
Can technology fix corruption?

Transparency (enabled by technology) makes it more difficult, and an enterprise model that makes it more "profitable" to cooperate than to compete would also tend to discourage it.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 11:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I understand it, most earmarks are discretionary spending i.e. they are already generally budgeted. An earmark specifies exactly how and in which state such allocated funds will be spent.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 11:47:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but in the case the EU wanted a transparent system.

If someone doesn't want a transparent system, all they have to do is apply some misdirection and name magic and the transparency will disappear. It doesn't matter if the information is held as XBRL or on bits of string with knots in it.

As an alternative to ATinNM's point, there's also:

No computational algorithm is a solution to a political problem.

What might make XBRL a solution is regulatory enforcement of certain reporting standards. The technology on its own may - perhaps - help make that more likely, but it won't make it inevitable.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 01:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and 450 people may be putting time and effort into producing the transparent system...but there are so many more out there sitting waiting to find out ways of getting around that transparency.

As a simple example...the annual Finance Act produced with all the tax rules for us accountants and tax advisers to 'adhere to'...what happens once the Finance Bill is brought out???  The accountants and tax advisers sit down and start working out ways of getting around those new closed off loopholes or rules by finding new loopholes and finding out if they can 'read' something upside down or back to front will it produce a more favourable outcome that they can defend in court!  By the time the Bill is enacted a few months later the accountants and tax advisers know what they can get around and are sitting back satisfied...this years puzzles solved.

As for doing away with the double entry system...I'm afraid my work a few years ago was extremely dependent on the simplicity of the double entry bookkeeping system and although it cost a number of 'suddenly turn up at the door clients' a lot of money in taxes, penalties and interest they did not end up in prison which is where the Irish Revenue wanted them...
KISS...

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde

by Sam on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 01:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sam:
As for doing away with the double entry system...I'm afraid my work a few years ago was extremely dependent on the simplicity of the double entry bookkeeping system and although it cost a number of 'suddenly turn up at the door clients' a lot of money in taxes, penalties and interest they did not end up in prison which is where the Irish Revenue wanted them...
KISS...

It's not a matter of doing away with it, but a gradual withering on the vine of it.

...and it's the simplicity which is both the attraction and the main reason for the savings to be had.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 03:28:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I may say so, you failed to convince me or ThatBritGuy 6 months ago. And I also have to say that double-entry accounting is great for keeping the household accounts in a semblance of order. But that's just me.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 03:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No worries. Transaction records are transaction records.

It's in your dealings with the "outside world" that things get interesting.

That's where shared transaction registries come into their own. They get rid of the need for reconciliations for instance.

Different issues kick in, for instance permissioning.

ie it still takes two to agree a transaction, but the agreement takes the form of an entry in a shared set of records, and the consensual legal agreement to which we are both party then gives the transaction legal effect.

This is as opposed to being entered as two pairs, one pair in my books (Debit Bank account: Credit P&L), one in theirs (Credit Migeru Account: Debit P&L) and having to reconcile and/or audit these fragmented records, and maybe sort out any disputes adversarially pursuant to long and detailed contractual agreements.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 04:07:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The double entry link seems really muddled.

Yes, profit and loss accounts and balance sheets don't really give as much information as we'd like to believe.  Yes, they're partly based on specialist and arcane conventions.

Yes, there might be a better basis for taxation than net profit as currently calculated.

But all that has absolutely nothing to do with double entry per se, which is a neutral tool designed to provide checks and balances.  Income, of itself, is unverifiable (I may have forgotten to write an invoice in the ledger, or my sales manager may have raised a false invoice at the year end to improve his bonus), but when balanced against cheques banked and agreed debt at the year ends, it's indirectly shown to be true.

It's not about doing the other guy's work as well.  It's making sure your own figures are right.  

I also notice that he has a touching faith in the accuracy of figures provided by computer accounting systems.  I don't think it would be too presumptuous to take this as proof he's never worked in audit and accounts.  

But one thing computing systems DO do is the other half of the double entry.  Where does all the alleged wasted effort come from?

I'm sorry, but he looks to me like a confused crank with a bee in his bonnet.

by Sassafras on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 05:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Virtually every thing you say is based upon a conventional outlook on accounting, which is fine but based upon an experience of businesses as silo's, which they have always been.

My point is that in the future businesses will not be silo's, but essentially networked partnerships of partnerships. If they do not go down that collaborative road, then they will be at a disadvantage to those that do, and will not survive IMHO.

Sassafras:

It's not about doing the other guy's work as well.  It's making sure your own figures are right.  

When I agree a transaction (an "Event") with the "other guy" the transaction we agree is automatically recorded in a shared transaction repository.

My figures are "right" and his are "right": the record is the evidence, and a "user agreement" binds us in respect of it.

Sassafras:

I also notice that he has a touching faith in the accuracy of figures provided by computer accounting systems.  I don't think it would be too presumptuous to take this as proof he's never worked in audit and accounts.  

Garbage in is garbage out. Computers are as accurate as the individuals operating them. Todd understands the issues concerning the integrity of transactions, system audit and the rest better than most. And he has designed web accounting systems from the ground up, so is well aware of the issues.

For your information, he was an accountant in the US for many years and understands where accounting meets the Internet better than most. He may not be able to explain it to people with little experience of data handling and processing (like me), and isn't exactly patient with people who have a vested interest in seeing the present system continue.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chris, it seems to that your standard answer to critics or people you fail to convince is to call the critics stick-in-the-muds with vested interests. I don't find it very convincing.

He may not be able to explain it to people with little experience of data handling and processing (like me), and isn't exactly patient with people who have a vested interest in seeing the present system continue.

So he can't explain it to anyone?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"it seems to me that" <sigh>
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:33:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I think that's more than a bit unfair, Colman.

If I can explain my own thinking better, then I try to, and I greatly enjoy refining ideas and concepts under (usually) friendly criticism. That's the joy of ET - the remarkable breadth and depth of knowledge and experience.

If I am wrong, I like to think I say so, and sometimes I guess I get carried away by my own enthusiasm and piss people off. But as far as I know I never criticise people ad hominem as "stick in the muds" or anything else.

There are people out there with a vested interest in complexity and conflict, but if they are present on ET they don't tend to say very much.

I believe - and having spent a couple of days working with him confirmed my belief - that Todd Boyle's work is important. But I am in difficulty in defending it in detail since the subject is not one I understand in depth.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:50:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's quite obvious that he wants the system to change.

It's just that trying to do it by attacking double-entry makes about as much sense as trying to alter property law by changing the alphabet.

I can see the advantage of having real-time access to your trading partner's records of their transactions with you.

But if you were to ask me not to have an independent record of my own: to rely absolutely on the accuracy and integrity of another company's data input, then I don't see that happening.

And if both companies have to input the data, where's the saving?

by Sassafras on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:38:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sassafras:
It's just that trying to do it by attacking double-entry makes about as much sense as trying to alter property law by changing the alphabet.
The way I put it when this first came up was:
Abolishing double-entry accounting because of the destructive effects of shareholder equity maximisation is like abolishing stoichiometry by blaming it for chemical warfare.


It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 07:02:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, then, I'm flattered to find my mind running along the same lines as yours  :)
by Sassafras on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 07:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sassafras:
It's quite obvious that he wants the system to change.

It's just that trying to do it by attacking double-entry makes about as much sense as trying to alter property law by changing the alphabet.

It's not so much that he's attacking it but that he believes - along with McCarthy (thanks for the link Migeru) - that "Peer to Peer" direct connection does not appear to be compatible with Double Entry.

I came to the same conclusion almost seven years ago, but from a different direction - through consideration of a global market place in the Internet age.

Market 3.0

I came to believe that the optimal "enterprise model" for a global market place is essentially a "partnership of partnerships" between a consortium of market users on the one hand and a consortium of "market service providers" on the other.

When I first saw the UK Limited Liability Partnership I recognised in its complete "open-ness" that here was an entity that could serve as a framework for a global market place.

A "Market Corporation", I called it.

From that realisation, over years, I have come to the conclusion that there is now the possibility for generic networked partnership-based legal frameworks for economic activity. ie every "closed" enterprise is just a subset of an "open" market but with the same stakeholder participants.

And I came to understand that since within a partnership there is no "Profit" and no "Loss" then if all stakeholders join a partnership as members, then a "shared transaction repository" is the result.

Sassafras:

But if you were to ask me not to have an independent record of my own: to rely absolutely on the accuracy and integrity of another company's data input, then I don't see that happening.

That's not what I am saying. It's about "links" and "tags" to data.  In this "market network" or "enterprise network" (I think of it as operating within a "domain") the "shared transaction repository" is not a centralised repository.

When I agree to sell you something, then that generates a transaction or event. The conclusion of that agreement will be recorded by both of us, and a link created, both in terms of "metadata" (ie tags or links) and also in terms of a legally binding contract.

And that's it. No telexes, faxes, contract notes and accounting entries.

There is then the fulfilment of the transaction - and that is where it can get messy, but again,it will inevitably lead (but it could be instantaneous) to another event - a transfer of title, in some form of value or another, and this time, entries in a "shared title repository".

You maintain your data, and your counterparty maintains his data - but our data is linked to create what I believe is known as a "file-space": a sort of "cloud" of "Accounts Receivable" and "Accounts Payable".

The only central asset - as with Internet Domains - is a router that keeps track of the participants, and the links.

The integrity of the data, system redundancy, and all the rest are issues which, as I understand it, are being addressed by all manner of decentralised filesharing applications.

One of the key "stakeholders" - and it addresses TBG's comments as well - is that of a "Custodian" for the necessary "transaction" and "title" repositories.

I do not believe that either the State or the private sector can be trusted with that role.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 07:50:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
When I agree a transaction (an "Event") with the "other guy" the transaction we agree is automatically recorded in a shared transaction repository.

Which is - where? And owned by whom? And who has access to it? And how secure is that access?

The way things work now, businesses are wholly responsible for their own accounts. Double entry is a side issue on top of that, and hardly the main event.

If you want to add an intermediation layer which automatically tracks agreements - and they're as likely to be contracts as specific transaction - it has to be neutral and managed by a third party.

Good luck trying to find a technology which is open enough to allow that kind of flexibility, reliable enough not to lose information, and private and secure enough to make sure neither hackers nor governments can get unauthorised access to it.

I can imagine ways in which it might be done, but you'll always have a reliability issue, which can be mitigated - not solved - with massive redundancy.

What makes businesses successful as silos is that if a business loses its own records, no one else suffers. (Unless they're a bank. Perhaps.)

If transactions are intermediated, potentially everyone suffers. If there's a dependency trail propagating through the network, losing even one node on it would be a very bad thing.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:43:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chris, I have no vested interest in accountancy.  I hated it and got out of it as soon as I could.

But my audit training and experience centred on data processing.  On verifying that the systems were properly designed to pick up on input errors through built-in checks and feedback.

I believe I actually do understand accounting systems and data handling.

And, for the reasons I've already given, I'm not convinced.

by Sassafras on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 07:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sassafras:
Chris, I have no vested interest in accountancy.  I hated it and got out of it as soon as I could.

You and me both: my accountancy experience came with a job in Insolvency.

Sassafras:

But my audit training and experience centred on data processing.  On verifying that the systems were properly designed to pick up on input errors through built-in checks and feedback.

I believe I actually do understand accounting systems and data handling.

I am sure you do, and, like Todd, much better than I. But in the model I am (poorly) describing there won't be a separate input.

eg in the commodity market.

A deal is struck on the phone, after a Yahoo chat (the entire global oil market takes place in Yahoo chats....)

So: this <market message setting out price and terms of a crude oil deal> is the deal we did; Yes or No?

If you agree, you message back, and the "transaction" is then tagged on both our systems, and the market network server is aware of it from now on, and through the settlement cycle. The tag, coupled with the "market user agreement" / protocol we are both signed up to gives the transaction binding legal effect.

This "straight through processing" simplifies the existing system massively and dramatically cuts "operational risk" through input errors etc.

The questions then come down to issues like I am who I say I am? And even if I am, do I have the power to make the agreement?

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 08:11:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a flat system and it's not nearly clever enough. Leaving aside the problem of how you make a 'market server' secure, and how you solve the authentication issue, and how you make sure that transaction records are robust and can't be altered after the event or by a third party, you still have the problem that a useful system would have to include a meta-transaction 'method' which defines exactly how the transaction is processed.

Not all transactions rely on one-off payments. At the moment accounting fudges this with things like standing orders and direct debits and settlement periods. But if you could attach a completely arbitary method to any transaction - pay X% of the profit from Y on the Zth of each month except under these circumstances - you could have something interesting and possibly useful.

Except - it would still be leaky, because people would still use cash for certain things, and unless you accounted accurately for all of the sources and sinks you'd really have a record of legal responsibilities mediated through finance, and not a complete accounting system.

And people who weren't online wouldn't be able to participate.

And governments would certainly want access to records for tax and legal reasons.

And you would inevitably create dependency trails, which would have to be calculated instantaneously to eliminate arbitrage and would have to be absolutely robust.

And so on.

It's not a totally insane idea, but outside of limited applications like trading rooms the implementation is going to be science fiction given today's technology and politics.

Incidentally, 'object oriented economics' - which is what this is - has already been outlined in one Charlie Stross novel.

I should really post a mini-review here. He covers a lot of similar ground, and I think people here might enjoy it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 10:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
That's a flat system and it's not nearly clever enough.

Quite. It needs more and better brains than mine to implement. And today's technology isn't tomorrow's of course, which is why the process of implementation will be a dynamic and organic one.

But we have to get "there" from here. The end game is IMHO a networked "flat" "Society 3.0" - and this in turn requires a new technological and communications architecture, and a legal framework within which generic transactions/ clearing may take place.

This is already evolving, and indeed this thread is part of the process.

What I see coming is a bottom up, linked and networked clearing system (Keynes' International Clearing Union, but bottom up, not top down), probably involving mobiles as payment devices. It will for the foreseeable future still be necessary to have paper as well, but I would only see that for locally "fungible" value circulation.

I believe I have identified and refined some new tools which will assist in enabling this process.

This has consequences in every part of Society, which have undoubtedly been considered by better intellects than mine, albeit I suspect, on the basis of a different set of assumptions.

A review of an "object-oriented" economics would be interesting. We do currently treat Money and Property as Objects, but we proceed on the (Subject-oriented?) approach that only Labour has value and may therefore be "productive".

I guess it is possible to conceive of an economics where only Capital has value. That is what I would think of as an "Object-oriented" economics.

But that is definitely not what I have in mind. I regard the relationship between Subject and Object to be the source of Value.

Now, the approach of Binary Economics is that both Capital and Labour are "productive" and I share that view, but not their approach to "Money" and Property as "Objects". Theirs is analogous to a Newtonian approach, I think, where the existing paradigm is still Ptolemaic, but they still believe in Absolutes.

My instinct is that Value is not definable (other than in relative terms)and lies in the Relationship between Subject and Object.

I think this leads to a "Relational" Economics - the Schumacher Associative Economics  is down this road, as I understand it, and they published an article of mine a while back in their Journal.

But, whatever the "orientation", if you follow through the process, you realise that in fact the role of governments in taxation dwindles to virtually zero, since it is collected  at the point of "value transfer", and "pre-distributed" as far as possible.

Taking the approach that private rights of use of a Commons should involve a payment by the user to Society, I would advocate a percentage of all land rental values to be collected at the clearing level, pooled and then automatically distributed equally to all citizens, or held on their behalf for the purposes of (consensually) agreed investment.

Similarly in respect of the "Commons" of Non-Renewables, a levy may be applied to all carbon based energy transactions and pooled, the resulting fund then being invested in renewable energy projects which are then "owned" by a Custodian on behalf of the community.

And so on, Intellectual Property is another candidate.

 

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 06:59:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would it be possible to give some examples of how simple transactions would work using the following model:

--Each ETer owns or rents a property in ETopia.
--Each ETer also has a job in ETopia.  These jobs are 'baker', 'butcher', 'maker of wind turbines', 'artist', 'banker', 'fabric designer', 'bicycle mechanic', etc.
--Some ETers live where they were born in ETopia; others have moved; others are about to move; and yet others are about to move back to where they were born.  In all these groups there are 'renters' and 'owners' of property

Bill (one of our ETers) is a baker.  He is also handy with machines.  He wants to learn how to paint.  He currently rents where he lives but is planning on moving back to the property he owns.  He has two children, aged 14 and 7 (girl and boy.)

Could you in a diary paint me a picture of a typical day in Bill's life in Society 3.0?

Specifically I would like to see:

Bill obtaining the materials for his bread making process
Bill dealing with one of his ovens going pffft.
Bill going to the shops to buy food
Bill sorting out an art lesson with the local artist

If they all look exactly the same as now except that what happens to the money is different, could you take any one (or more!) of those activities and describe a/the (possible) transaction process(es) that are happening behind the scenes?

Also...

It would be interesting to have a look at Bill's accounts, in particular:

What's going on with those payments he's making as a renter (is he making any?  How about his contributions to the community?)

What's going on with those payments he's been receiving on his property back home?

What sort of agreements might Bill be negotiating now that he has decided to move back to the property he owns?

Regarding those, how (if at all) are they connected to the various payments Bill is expected to make to ETopia for things such as street lights, electricity refueling stations (no smelly petrol engines in ETopia), the schools, the hospitals, the local health clinics, the opticians, dentists...police, fire, ambulance, law courts, judges...how does the infastructure suck money out of Bill and how can they coerce him to pay his way?

(Let's make Bill the baddie.  He owes lots of people money (is that possible in Society 3.0?) and plans to run away from his societal debts.  He also mistreats his dog and often punches people for no good reason.  How do the laws of Society 3.0 work with regard to Evil Bill?)

;)


Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 07:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bloody hell, rg, you don't want much do you? ;-)

I guess that means I'm going to have to write the book that Solveig's been on at me about for the last 6 months

I've had Pluto Press lined up to publish it ("The Last Big Thing" is a working title) for two years, but I hadn't really brought all the threads together in relation to investment in land, but now I think I do.

So yes, all will be revealed.

But not in a Diary, grasshopper...

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 07:54:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, do you need help writing/editing that?  It sounds like a good first project for MMM LLP.

Certainly I think to get more traction you're going to have to find at least one model (involving Bill and his contacts, not strange abstractions) that ecapsulates your new paradigm--and gets heads nodding here at ET (or elsewhere.)

I think 'napsterisation', 'peer to peer', 'Society 3.0', & etc. make perfect connective sense to you; but everyone else is still scratching his or her head--or waving angry fists in your direction.

For me the clue that clicked was "property and money are not objects"

Tie that to "all values are relative" (using the 'but we all need to eat' model--'that is only if you give human survival value, and judging by our current world processes that's dubious'...yack yack...)

Ya know, a book sounds good--but if you're not going to offer anything in a Diary (glasshopper), then it seems...I dunno...not right in some way to use diaries to promote the vague (is how it comes across, judging from comments) idea(s)...if you're refusing to concretise--cement (margouillat!) them in some way.

What with me being into synthesis and all!

So: I think that means I'm suggesting I could offer you zer colours for your monotone blueprint--and MMM LLP--will...er....hmmmm...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 08:16:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well give us an outline and think of it as an advert ;-)

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 08:38:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I have mentioned elsewhere, Chris' friend over at ledgerism.net claims to be closely related to Resources, Events, Agents
Resources, Events, Agents (REA) is a model of how an accounting system can be reengineered for the computer age. REA was originally proposed in 1982 by William E. McCarthy as a generalized accounting model, and contained the concepts of resources, events and agents.

REA is a popular model in teaching accounting information systems (AIS). But it is rare in business practice--companies cannot easily dismantle their legacy systems to meet REA's radical demands.

The REA model gets rid of many accounting objects that are not necessary in the computer age. Most visible of these are debits and credits--double-entry bookkeeping system disappears in an REA system. Many general ledger accounts also disappear, at least as persistent objects,--e.g., accounts receivable or accounts payable. The computer can generate these accounts in real time using source document records.

...

... Here's an example of the basic REA pattern:

So, that is what a "basic pattern" looks like. And, to make matters worse, Chris "doesn't do detail".

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 08:15:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah!  Yes.  I can't read half the words and it no makes ze sense to me!

Chris "doesn't do detail"

Exactly (I am seeing a writerly role I can invent for myself here--offering Chris my version of the "TBG narrative", in honour of ThatBritGuy's having pushed the concept it 'till I got it--)

Now--from what you understand (with your powerful brain), is Chris's problem one of communication or of concept?  Or a bit of both?  I'm bashing away at the communication in order to understand the concept.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 08:21:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
So, that is what a "basic pattern" looks like. And, to make matters worse, Chris "doesn't do detail".

Cheap shot, Migeru.

...and the flow diagrams in a double entry accounting system look like what exactly.......?

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 08:28:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know, you tell me.

But I believe it consists of one ledger, two accounts, and a debit and a credit repationship. That is, five blobs in a line.

IMHO what REA advocates is a detailed object-oriented model of economic activity as the foundation of accounting. That diagram is just for one kind of transaction, a "sale". Other kinds of transactions have other diagrams of the same general level of complexity.

That doesn't make REA wrong, but it makes it a lot more complicated (hence potentially bug-ridden and definitely less robust) than double-entry accounting.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 09:07:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.

A lucid critique of REA, which, as you say, replaces one set of issues with another - probably worse set.

But please don't think that I am defending ("object oriented" ?) REA (which I had never heard of), any more than I would defend some of the other concepts Todd has worked on, and which others eg

ripplepay

are working on..

It's just that I feel that at least one of the concepts he has arrived at - the "Shared Transaction Repository" - is exactly the same as my own conclusion, but from the other end of the telescope, maybe.

Maybe in a similar way to the way relational databases were revolutionary, so may be relational accounting, but it will only come about within, and probably as a result of, the adoption of a new enterprise model.

 

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 09:48:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh
Maybe in a similar way to the way relational databases were revolutionary, so may be relational accounting
I think you're conflating two distinct meanings of relational here.

Now, some of the originators of relational databases claim that SQL is not actually an implementation of the relational database principle and therefore that most "relational database management systems" (such as, say, Oracle) are nothing such.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 09:57:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
I think you're conflating two distinct meanings of relational here.

Quite likely. I did say "maybe" ;-)

I think a Relational Economics may not be dissimilar to an "Associative" Economics, but maybe without the Schumacher spiritual dimension which obscures it (to me).

Perhaps a "Relational" model in this context is an Associative Model of Data?

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 10:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Going out on a limb here, but it seems to me the associative model of data is to the relational model as categories are to sets.

Just like categories can be formulated within set theory, so the associative model can be implemented using relational databases.

If the analogy I see is meaningful it would mean that the associative model of data is more suited to representing processes while the relational model is suited to representing things.

Finally, double-entry accounting can be represented in the associative model by having accounts as entities or items and ledgers as links or relationships.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 01:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More complicated doesn't necessarily imply bug ridden and less robust. Object oriented coding is 'more complicated' than 70s-style BASIC code, and often harder to read. But it's much more powerful and not any more - or less - likely to be buggy.

The markets deal with very complex transactions which rely on complex systems and - more or less - work reliably.

So if the specification is clean enough, there's no reason in principle an object-oriented approach would be any more opaque.

The machine-readable issue is a side-point, because as long as you have systems that can translate the raw data to and from readable input and output, you don't need to worry about what's going on inside the files. If your network dies you're screwed anyway, even if only some of your transactions are virtual - which they already are today.

No one has a problem with PDFs even though you can't read them as binary.

The problem is really conceptual - do you want 'money' to be something that exists with a specific ledger value at a specific time, or do you want to graph the network of relationships around a 'business' in a dynamic way, which can be parsed to provide a traditional book-keeping view on request, but can also provide other views on demand?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 10:41:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
The problem is really conceptual - do you want 'money' to be something that exists with a specific ledger value at a specific time, or do you want to graph the network of relationships around a 'business' in a dynamic way, which can be parsed to provide a traditional book-keeping view on request, but can also provide other views on demand?

Indeed - and beautifully put.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 11:43:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
rg:
Each ETer also has a job in ETopia.  These jobs are 'baker', 'butcher', 'maker of wind turbines', 'artist', 'banker', 'fabric designer', 'bicycle mechanic', etc.

I think one of the sticking points - not related to Chris's idea, but worth pointing out anyway - is the concept that people have fixed roles.

If you open this out to make it possible for anyone to do anything, subject to reasonable evidence of skills and experience, or at least a have-a-go attitude where first-time success isn't essential, I think it's possible the economy might become much more fun and interesting for everyone.

I've suggested before that work could easily become project-based rather than job or company based.

This isn't possible at the moment because employees are farmed by corporations for their time and effort. This means people have to turn up at certain times and locations even if they'd be better off doing other things, and being managed - or self-organised - by people with better insight into what's needed.

A participative rather than a proscriptive economy would be more flexible.

It would also be more chaotic, and evidence of previous successes would become much more useful.

So in theory if someone decides they want to be a baker today, or help with the baking, or learn how to bake with a view to committing some time to it, they might be able to do that without taking on a job label as a permanent identity marker.  

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 08:49:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm trying to imagine a simple thought experiment (like relativity's two trains passing--or the light from a train that's rushing towards me--well, whatever it was ;) such that we (the readers) can "see" Chris's model--like In Wales offering me the number line (electrons to the negative end, protons to the positive end)...

(Milo explaning Society 3.0 to Colonel Cathcart)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 09:03:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent, tbg. Very insightful.

The end of "Labour" and "Jobs" is inherent in this. Also the end of "Organisations" (such as Companies) and the evolution of "Frameworks" which may be project specific.

ThatBritGuy:

It would also be more chaotic, and evidence of previous successes would become much more useful.

ie towards capability demonstrated by a portfolio of peer reviewed experience rather than "qualifications" per se.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 09:05:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
ThatBritGuy:
That's a flat system and it's not nearly clever enough.

Quite. It needs more and better brains than mine to implement. And today's technology isn't tomorrow's of course, which is why the process of implementation will be a dynamic and organic one.

I hesitate to post this comment, but what the heck. I hope you won't take it personally.

Crackpot index

A simple method for rating potentially revolutionary contributions ...

...

10 points for each statement along the lines of "I'm not good at math, but my theory is conceptually right, so all I need is for someone to express it in terms of equations".



It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 08:19:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course I take it personally, since it's a response to something I wrote.

But that is not to say I'm offended by it: it's a relevant observation. Anyone who trespasses beyond the conventional runs the risk of being labelled a crackpot.

very little I write about did I "invent", apart from maybe the odd phrase and associated concept. And I only came up with these phrases to make sense of what people are actually doing and then suggesting (talking to myself, most of the time) where I think this is maybe leading Society.

I don't mind criticism - particularly constructive criticism - in fact I wouldn't be able to get anywhere without it.

I'm interested first and foremost in explaining things to myself and then if people ask me, I can give a view, which they are free to agree with or not.

If people are prepared to work with me to test that view empirically, then that's cool too, and maybe more fool them as fellow crackpots.

If I'm right, on the other hand, that could be beneficial for everyone.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 08:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it's a relevant observation. Anyone who trespasses beyond the conventional runs the risk of being labelled a crackpot.

That is not my observation at all. My observation is about revolutionary claims and excuses for not substantiating same.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 09:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
My observation is about revolutionary claims and excuses for not substantiating same.

Ok. Substantiation can only come about from implementation.

I've got a few irons in the fire, and there are others out there taking some of the ideas and running with them their way.

It will be interesting to see what works, and what doesn't.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 09:57:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We're talking about double entry.

If that transaction is real-if it's designed to happen, then a number of things are going to have to be kicked off by this ledger entry.

Unless money has no place in this system, then the seller's bank is going to register the payment for the sale.

Unless delivery has no place in this system, then despatch has got to be organised, and stock records updated.

So they'd be making the same transactions and ledger entries as with double entry.  There is no simpler alternative to double entry because every piece of information has a use.  Of course it can be framed in a linear way, but you then lose the self-check of the trial balance (all the debits must equal all the credits) and need detailed knowledge of the specific system invented by that particular company in order to check it.

This thread was originally about financial transparency.  Simplicity is transparency.  I bet there isn't a reader of ET who couldn't learn the basics of double entry in an hour.

As things are, any of us can walk into almost any company and know what's going on (I'm not talking weird financial derivatives here, obviously).  In double entry we have a simple, elegant and self-correcting international language for the recording of financial transactions.  Is it really a step forward to replace it with something no one can understand?

And there isn't even anything inevitable about double entry leading to a profit and loss account.  It leads to a trial balance. Just because the trial balance can be arranged so that "profit" falls out of the bottom doesn't mean it has to be so.

It really doesn't help his credibility that he doesn't seem to know this.

by Sassafras on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 03:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sassafras:
Unless money has no place in this system, then the seller's bank is going to register the payment for the sale.

A bank is not necessary as an intermediary. In the event that a sale is made on credit terms I believe that this may be achieved through the use of a mutual guarantee backed by a default fund into which both buyer and seller make suitable provisions.

That still requires the recording of "Accounts Payable" and Accounts Receivable" of course. My account receivable is also your account payable, and both are tagged, and therefore both linked and legally binding.  

I don't see why it is necessary to have any more entries than these and the  equal and opposite transfers of title, but as I understand it, that is what you are also saying. Such a linked system is essentially "self reconciling" which would save a great deal of time and trouble.

Sassafras:

Unless delivery has no place in this system, then despatch has got to be organised, and stock records updated.

Agreed. It's not just about a shared transaction repository, it's also about a shared title repository.

I believe that the creation and settlement of an account receivable may be better accompanied by changes of title in respect of (say) units of energy (with a value in exchange by reference to a "Value Unit") or units of land rentals (with a value in exchange) instead of a change of title to Bank IOU's based upon nothing much at all.

But that's another story.

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 09:00:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ChrisCook:
A bank is not necessary as an intermediary.

Except that your repository is roughly analogous to a bank - without it nothing happens, no transactions are logged, and no money moves.

The repository doesn't lend money, and it doesn't hold money in escrow - which is kinda sorta what banks do while they're taking three days to clear your payment.

But it's still an intermediary between agents.

Effectively you'd be splitting the book-keeping and account management function of banks away from the investment and lending function - not a bad thing, but not quite the same as removing all intermediary entities.

And you would - presumably - still need borrowing and liquidity management of some sort.

I think it would be hard to prevent the usual gravitational accretion of value and power around whichever entities offered that service. You could have Grameen style micro-banking for day to day borrowing, but big-ticket projects would still need some form of investment.

Random networks of investors might not be ideally skilled to do the risk assessment needed for financial management at infrastructure levels.  

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 at 10:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
But it's still an intermediary between agents.

Not if it's a "Custodian" member of a partnership, where the other "member" stakeholder groups are:

(a) the system/service users, and
(b) the system/service providers.

Within a partnership there is no "Profit" and no "Loss" - just creation and exchange of "value" - and there is no "agency" within a partnership either.

ThatBritGuy:

Effectively you'd be splitting the book-keeping and account management function of banks away from the investment and lending function - not a bad thing, but not quite the same as removing all intermediary entities.

And you would - presumably - still need borrowing and liquidity management of some sort.

Exactly. But in this model credit (aka "time to pay") is simply extended from a Seller to a Buyer.

The Seller records an "Account Receivable" and the transfer of title to the Seller of something of value.

The Buyer records the acquisition of title to something of value (ie "money's worth") and also an "Account Payable".

Time to Pay, or "credit" is agreed because the buyer has a "Guarantee Limit" of £x from mutual membership of one or more "Guarantee Societies". Both Buyer and Seller then pay - for as long as the account receivable remains open - for the use of the Guarantee, which protects them both.

This payment or "provision" is made into a "default pool" held by the "custodian".

The point I am getting to is that a Service Provider formerly known as a Bank is responsible for:

(a) setting guarantee limits;

(b) operating the default fund (which pays the seller if the buyer cannot provide money or "money's worth" acceptable to the Seller); and possibly

(c) managing the communications and accounting platform (ie with suitable operating partners).

In this model Banks do not put any Capital at risk as credit intermediaries providing an implicit Guarantee backed by proprietary capital. Instead banks operate purely as service providers and "outsource" the guarantee - which is what Banks have been doing, extremely opaquely:

(a) permanently - by "securitising";
(b) temporarily - through credit derivatives; and
(c) partially - through credit insurance with "monolines".

"Money as Debt" (and as an "Object") no longer exists in this system. Instead, "Money's Worth" - probably involving "fungible" units such as energy and land rental units - circulate backed by mutual guarantees.

It's essentially a "mutualised" banking system operating "Not for Loss" with money implicit in the relationship.

So there is no "interest" for the use of Money as Debt issued ex nihilo: instead, there are shared defaults and operating costs.

The outcome is what Keynes called a "Clearing Union" which would result from the linking together of networked local clearing unions backed by local and functional guarantee societies (which in turn may be members of area and regional societies)

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 at 08:29:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The shared ledgers you suggest are a systems control nightmare.  Systems control 101: the absolute fundamental is separation.  In any company big enough to employ two members of staff in accounts, it's imperative that duties are segregated so that errors or fraud by one will be picked up by the other. (Collusive fraud is obviously much harder to catch).

Reconciliations between your own ledger and the debtors'/creditors' own statements aren't just to give accountants something to do. Their virtue is that they are an independent document and investigating any differences will show up any errors or fraud.  

If I've got this right, he wants to make the system linear (removing the trial balance) and do away with third party verification.

In layman's terms, he wants to do away with all the independent checks and balances currently used to detect errors or fraud.  

But it's apparently beneath him to explain his alternative.

What's more, I can think of one example where the brave new world of finance this envisages may already partly exist.

A cooperative cluster of businesses, with shared title and quite possibly already with shared stock records.  The sort of shared ledger system suggested would make perfect sense to record transfers between the partnership entities.

The business I'm thinking of is Tesco.

by Sassafras on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 at 12:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sassafras:

A cooperative cluster of businesses, with shared title and quite possibly already with shared stock records.  The sort of shared ledger system suggested would make perfect sense to record transfers between the partnership entities.

The business I'm thinking of is Tesco.

Of course. That's an "internal" shared transaction repository within the Tesco legal protocol.

It's a "closed" market, where (say) the oil market is an "open" one.

I see the Tesco shared repository gradually extending to their stakeholders....

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 at 01:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't wait for the day when the State will be replaced by a for-profit corporation like Tesco. Cyberpunk dystopia, here we come!

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 at 03:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As simple as I can put it:

It is impossible to fold the Universe into Set Theory.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 01:23:05 PM EST
Too much of what is being reported is down to judgement calls.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 01:35:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My, how fast the world changes.  For a variety of reasons I have been out of the business/IT world for 4 years, and yet I find it remarkable that this is the first I have heard of XBRL - and it seems to me to be an incredibly important development from a business and regulatory perspective.

No, it is not going to solve the problems of the universe, and there will always be commercial/political and other interests which will seek to destroy it, but the idea of creating a common, system independent, but machine readable information architecture for financial reporting, business analysis and regulatory compliance is so important and its potential for revolutionising how we conduct business and Government simply cannot be overstated.

This is NOT about technology, that part is easy, and can be handled using largely pre-existing tools.  It is about developing a common set of standards for how the financial world is described making corporate or government accounts much more directly comparable and analysiable and making it possible to hugely improve the quality of decision making by all concerned - managers, civil servants, investors, citizens, customers and policymakers.

It is like the change from making decisions based on back-of-the envelope calculations and using sophisticated spreadsheet and mathematical models.  I is a huge advance in terms of automating the processes of capturing data and analysing it in much more truly meaningful and comparable ways.  No, it is not going to change the world overnight, but it may come to be seen as being alsmost as important as the invention of the PC, or the internet in terms of changing how a lot to the "information industry" works.

Please write more about this, Sven, when you get the chance.  Your friend is at the cutting edge of what might seem to be a very mundane field, but which will have very real benefits for the real world of business, finance and Government - not least for the little people - ordinary citisens, customers, shareholders, who are currently too easily taken for a ride.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 05:16:01 PM EST
The first I heard about was last night. It gave me quite a jolt. I'm happy to hear you agree.

I'm not the chap to be explaining it, but I will endeavour to provide any information I get from my friend. He is not a coder, not even a systems analyst. He is a psychologist. What he does is look at systems from a human standpoint and how behaviours can be changed, or will change. I think his unique skills come from being able to talk to the politicians, the bureaucrats, the coders and the academics in each of their own disciplines, in their own language. None of them of course usually find it easy to talk to each other. And get them to interact.

To do this one needs good overview knowledge, I suppose, to cut across all the disciplines. He talks a lot about deep knowledge, and being able to stand back and see how everything might fit together in a new way.  But when we talk, the emphasis seems to be more about giving oneself the POV of the user, rather than the process. I've adopted this in my own work, which is usually about what the media audience needs, as opposed to what they want, and what can be sold to them.

For this reason I am very interested in the European Living Lab project that combines state, corporate, academia and users in projects that test solutions in the real world.

Here is a website I wrote for the Helsinki Living Lab.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 05:40:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your friends approach to and role in business sounds very much my own last few years in the trade.  I'm away from home at the moment but will follow up on links etc. when I get time.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:15:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
For a variety of reasons I have been out of the business/IT world for 4 years, and yet I find it remarkable that this is the first I have heard of XBRL - and it seems to me to be an incredibly important development from a business and regulatory perspective.
Well, spurned by Chris' links I have found there are at least two competing standards.

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ebXML

Electronic Business using eXtensible Markup Language, commonly known as e-business XML, or ebXML (pronounced ee-bee-ex-em-el) as it is typically referred to as, is a family of XML based standards sponsored by OASIS and UN/CEFACT whose mission is to provide an open, XML-based infrastructure that enables the global use of electronic business information in an interoperable, secure, and consistent manner by all trading partners.

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: XBRL

XBRL (Extensible Business Reporting Language) is an open standard which supports information modeling and the expression of semantic meaning commonly required in business reporting. XBRL is XML-based. It uses the XML syntax and related XML technologies such as XML Schema, XLink, XPath, Namespaces, etc. to articulate this semantic meaning. One use of XBRL is to define and exchange financial information, such as a financial statement.


It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 05:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds a bit like the usual Microsoft vs. the rest of the world standards battle and IT wouldn't be IT without it - in much the same way Politics needs a Government and an opposition.  However both standards seem to be XML based and I don't know how significant the differences are and whether they reflect real rather than commercial/artifical differences.  One standard usually wins out in the end -not always because it is the best -  and I presume there will also be mapping or conversion solutions capable of translating the data from one format to the other. At this stage I wouldn't be too concerned that there are competing emergent standards, but I would hope that the one that is least proprietory or tied to specific commercial interests will eventually win out.  This is the sort of thing the EU/UN and international cooperation agencies should really be promoting hard.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd be more worried about using XML for anything that matters.

XML is quite clever, and you can do some quite clever things with it - one project I'm doodling at the moment is an automated brochure, which will take a number of artists' web entries from forms which they fill in themselves, spit them out as XML, and load them into InDesign as pre-filled page layouts.

This is fine for text and graphics, but it's a rather inefficient way of trying to cope with arbitrary data structures.

XML more or less asumes everything is like a web page, only more so. For business finance everything is more or less like a spreadsheet, and the spreadsheet can get extremely big.

So I'm not sure this is going to do more than put some arbitrary tags around pre-calculated data. Which doesn't make it very interesting.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 06:54:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd be more worried about using XML for anything that matters.

An example closer to my experience: only machines can read or write MathML. For all its faults, TeX markup is quite readable.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2008 at 07:05:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]