European Tribune

Why don't people vote anymore?

by IdiotSavant
Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 07:44:26 AM EST

From No Right Turn - New Zealand's liberal blog:

In the Guardian, Polly Toynbee considers the results of the latest Hansard Society Audit of Political Engagement [PDF] - which found that UK citizens were overwhelmingly disengaged from politics to the extent that only 53% of them plan to vote - and asks the obvious question: how has this happened, and why don't people vote anymore.  She also gets the answer right: because it doesn't matter.  With no real difference between the major parties, and a political system which denies real choice, they no longer have anything worth voting for:

Diary rescue by Migeru


When people shut the door on canvassers saying, "You're all the same", they're not wrong in these strange political times. Give them clear choices and they'll come out and choose, otherwise they will sit at home and sulk, rightly sensing politics is a Westminster stitch-up with the parties fighting over the same shrinking piece of all-things-to-all-people centre ground.

Those most likely to vote are the old - 78% of the over-65s. Is that because they are dutiful citizens? No, it is because they have deeper affiliations stretching back to the days when parties did stand for identifiably distinct values. Above all, parties stood for different class and economic interests. Them-and-us was spelled out loud and clear: whose side are you on, who stands up for people like us?

There is no united British civic interest, except in matters of national security. There is as clear a difference in economic interest now as ever there was: indeed it is getting stronger. Twenty years ago, FTSE chief executives earned 17 times the pay of their workers, now they earn 75 times more. But no party has anything to say about that, none daring not to be the party of the rich. Yet great economic divides are there: the median earners on £22,000 and below are 50% of the voters - but that's a bit less than MPs get as expenses for running their second homes. So much gold dust is kicked in the nation's eyes by scores of TV programmes selling property beyond most people's imagining, or celebrity handbags costing thousands, that the delusion that most people are affluent has entered Labour's lexicon and even its soul. Labour needs a coalition of interests - but not to deny those interests.

Disgruntlement with politics may not express itself as a question of class, but it is the job of politicians to articulate people's strong if inchoate feelings, to crystallise ideas and describe society as it is. If they pretend that Britain is one great homogenous affluent bloc, with a few dysfunctional poor people to be sorted out, they sell a warped picture of the way we live now - and, instinctively, voters know it.

Looking through the Hansard Society's report bears this out.  Those least likely to vote - at only 34% - are the poor, who aren't really represented by any party at the moment, and the young, who have witnessed with their own eyes how little difference it makes (having seen a government elected to end Thatcherism merrily continue it as if nothing had happened - and then engage in an illegal war of aggression overwhelmingly rejected by its own voters).  As a result, fewer people every year believe that their involvement can make a difference - and the number of people who actively disagree with this is growing.  It's not apathy the British political system is facing - it's rejection.

Faced with this, the proposed shift to preferential voting seems inadequete.  Yes, it's an improvement, but not enough of one, and designed clearly to give a veneer of democracy to the current cosy oligarchy.  What people want is real choice,and they're not going to get it with a system which squashes out minority voices and prevents new parties from rising.  To get that, they need proper European-style proportional representation.

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With no real difference between the major parties, and a political system which denies real choice, they no longer have anything worth voting for...
They also know who counts the votes.
by Magnifico on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 at 10:51:22 PM EST
I don't think that's an issue at all in the UK.  While the system is fundamentally unfair, its implementation is procedurally fair.  Of course, that's not enough...
by IdiotSavant on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:17:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair enough.

I was extrapolating to the United States and other so-called democracies where who counts the vote is an issue and varies from county-to-county to state-to-state. There are no common election standards in the U.S.A.

by Magnifico on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From what I understand, in the UK the counting is done by party official, without public access. That'd make me uncomfortable.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 04:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Party official? Not that I'm aware of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Returning_officer

Usually a civil servant.
No guarantee of avoiding bias, but generically most of them seem to be fairly civically minded.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 01:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Having been a vote adjudicator at several vote count it is a very transparent affair with officials of all parties in attendance and able to inspect the vote tallies (and ballots) at any stage. Any concerns can be brought to the attention of the officer in charge of the count at the time, counting can be suspended or repeated if required.

I may have issues regarding the postal ballot system which was poorly designed and wide open to abuse but, by and large, our voting system is fair.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 11:57:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hand counting seems fair - it's very British, in the sense of being ramshackle and low tech, but it seems to work, and I wouldn't want to see it replaced.

But the postal ballot system has been proven to be fraudulent. It's wide open to abuse and lacks the safeguards that hand counting offers.

We'll surely see a push for e-voting soon, but given the UK's technological skills I wouldn't expect any progress on that for at least a couple of decades. By which time it probably won't be an issue any more.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 09:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember something about a Labour election fraud case somewhere in the North(?) about three years ago. Do you remember details?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 09:35:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't remember the details but the impact it has on us on our campaigning now is to have it drummed into us - you do NOT go anywhere near anybody once their postal ballot has arrived.

People do sometimes ask canvassers to help them fill in the forms, if they can't see or read too well etc.  We are not allowed to touch them.  I can't remember if it was actual fraud or a very stupid mistake but you won't find Labour Party campaigners interfering with postal ballots now - if they do, they shouldn't be in the party, and would get kicked out.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 02:14:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Votes are hand-counted in Spain with very few problems and in a very short time, also with political parties being able to send observers to as many polling stations as they can muster.

The problem with the US elections seems to be the complexity of the ballot, but that is an artifact of insisting on putting on the same ballot all elections and referenda being voted on.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 09:50:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why can't it be completely public ? I'm more comfortable with that...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 12:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
she should come to amerika.

it's going to take more than a billion dollars to convince voters that there's a difference worth caring about this coming november in the us, and still, if voter participation hits the upper 50th percentile, that'll be considered legitimising.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:55:36 PM EST
Yes - the analysis applies even more strongly to the United States, where restrictive ballot-access rules keep minor parties from effectively competing, and where both major parties effectively serve the interests of the rich.
by IdiotSavant on Thu Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see any reason to believe that the turnout will be lower than 2004 (60.3% for the presidential ballot), and a decent chance that it will be a bit higher.
by MarekNYC on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 10:42:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is this considered a high voter participation?

given the general disgust with the direction of the country by overwhelmingly large majorities of people in the us, and the raw amount of cash which is going to be spent convincing people there's really something to vote for in coming months, i'd somehow expect more.

in any event, high 50's, low 60's, distinction without a difference...

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 11:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that the differences between candidates are often less in Western Europe, particularly as regards economic policy. Think Germany - Schroeder 'cut taxes for the rich, cut social spending on the poor, deregulate' vs Merkel 'more of the same' though it is true that in rhetoric the SPD has recently moved left. I don't follow Spanish politics as closely so the Spanish could correct me if I'm wrong, but I also don't see massive differences in what the PP and Socialists were proposing in the economic sphere - the big debates tended to be what the US calls 'social issues' and the specifically Spanish ones of centralist nationalism vs accomodation with the regional nationalisms. The practical difference between the left and right on economics in Italy seems to be crony capitalism and corruption. France's recent elections were indeed marked by sharp contrasts in economic policy, mais la France ce n'est pas l'Europe, contrairement a ce que certains Francais pensent.

Or to put it in different terms, in Western Europe the debate tends to be Left: move the system slightly to the right or leave it where it is vs. right move the system to the right a bit more. In the US it is move the system to the left, albeit to a position still to the right of where Western Europe is, or move it even further to the right.

by MarekNYC on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 12:24:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
vote die linke, and have my voice represented in parliament and in state and local government. And in france i can (and often do) vote pcf the same way.

funny how representative democracy can be...well...representative.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 01:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't really have that option in France on a national level because France isn't a PR system, except for the sufferance of the PS, the PCF would be even more marginal than it already is. The communists in France are more comparable to an organized pressure group within the Dem Party than to a genuine independent force, a much less powerful left wing version of the DLC if you will. In Germany, however, you're right.

 In any case your examples point to a separate problem for   would be economically left wing voters in Europe - i.e. that their political representatives aren't able to bring themselves to fully get over their longstanding belief that left wing economic policies have to come with repression and dictatorship.

by MarekNYC on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 02:35:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you underestimate the power of the PCF and candidates in certain circumsciptions in Paris, Lyon and Marseille and in the north. In some of these circumscriptions the PS stands no chance against the PCF. And in municipal government this is also true.

In decline? Certainly, has been for a long time. But still there are pockets of resistance. And there have also been other periods of decline followed by big come-backs. And my guess is that there will always be at least a dozen in parliament, no matter what the PS tries to do.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 03:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though voting participation seems low, in the context of US politics it's been growing since 2000, as the contrast has grown greater between the performance of the party in power and the hope that change, any change, is for the better.  

The differences between Clinton and Bush I or Clinton and Dole could be measured in micrometers.  

My own fear is that the differences between Clinton II and McCain will be perceived the same way.

by clbetley on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 09:09:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be an accurate assessment imho.

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 09:30:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whose fault is it that the parties are broadly the same?  Labour have been forced to shift to the right or they wouldn't have been able to stay in Government, the lib dems loiter across the centre, the Tories have been forced to shift a little to the left, all to converge on this sweet spot of popularist vote winning rhetoric.

What is the market they are trying to reach to?  The mouthy selfish middle classes?  The ones who feed the Daily Mail and all the right wing crap it propagates.  

So why aren't working class people getting angrier? Why don't people force the parties to look at what they want instead and make the idea of altering policies to reach out to these groups a viable option? Parties won't risk moving their policies to the left if there isn't any indication that people will get out to vote, so they have to keep pleasing the voters - the middle classes.  It's chicken and egg in a way.  The working class voters see 3 parties that all look the same and give up and stay at home.

When people don't get out and vote we run a higher risk of the far right gaining seats and once we start trotting off down that route, we'll have a hard time turning it around.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 03:28:21 AM EST
Labour have been forced to shift to the right or they wouldn't have been able to stay in Government

Is this, strictly speaking, true?

I'm not a Brit (obviously) but if memory serves Thatcher got nowhere near 50% in her first election, and the real story for Labour was that it split apart, thus handing a crushing victory to thatcher the second time around. she actually got less votes after argentina than before it thanks to "moderate" labourites who destroyed the party because their guy didn't win.

easy to facilitate a shit to the right when you've been stabbed in the back.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 07:41:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Easy to blame the Social Democrats, all 4 of them and their 23 MEPs.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 08:13:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if they had stuck with labour i doubt we'd have ben stuck with bliar and brown.

the rest of europe got a left-wing make-over around then, we had a real left government in france (at least at first) and also in spain if memory isn't failing me in my dotage.

britain get's its one chance at seeing proper socialism in an electorally legitimite guise and i guess the lily-livered crowd couldn't handle it.

i think it's genetic, and explains a lot about amerika, too.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 08:50:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to facilitate a shit to the right

You mean: to bring in Tony Blair? ;)

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 08:38:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would appear the sudden death of John Smith had nothing to do with Blair's ascension.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 08:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
freudian slip fully intended in retrospect...

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 08:47:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An early diary of mine took a look at this issue.  The reason I say that there was not a great deal of choice for Labour (if they wanted to stay in power) is that Thatcher completely deconstructed the concept of solidarity, collective bargaining, and community and moved Britain over the the successful rhetoric of each for his own, public services and welfare is bad, privatisation and competition is good.

It's reasonably well ingrained.  So Labour had to change tack somewhat to provide a means of framing their policies in a way that would attract those leaning to the right but unhappy with the Tories and not totally repel the traditional Labour voters.

I am bitterly disappointed that Labour moved so far away from their roots in carrying on with chunks of Thatcher's agenda -  given the length of time in Government, the policies and implementation of them should have been able to shift back towards the left.  There has been time to reverse some of that rhetoric but it hasn't been done in England. Tony Blair was a master of persuasion which saw him come in on landslide win.  He could have used that to convince the public to shift their way of thinking back to the left and in doing so encouraged the working classes to have faith in Labour and keep turning out to vote.

I don't see how the reversal of the damage the tories did could have been achieved by keeping a hard left line from the beginning -  in England anyway.  In Wales (and Scotland) the Left were stronger in a more traditional way, certainly for Wales with a strong history of the Labour movement, unions and the legacy of coal mining and heavy industry.  As such through devolution we do have a socialist Government here, with progressive social policies.

I have a friend who thinks Tony Blair is great, he really admires him and I just can't see it.  He thinks Tony Blair was pragmatic in dealing with the legacy Thatcher left.  I think he sold the Party out.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 12:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The current media environment has broken democracy. I have no idea how to fix it: it's not in the interests of any of the people with the power to change it to do so.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 07:51:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Labour have been forced to shift to the right or they wouldn't have been able to stay in Government

That is a choice, the other obvious one would have been to move to the left and focusing on getting out the vote. If you prioritise staying in power over what you can achieve, triangulation can be a succesful strategy. If you prioritise changes it generally is not.

From the voter perspective, if you vote even though there is no candidate that represents your interests, you show that your vote is for free, the party in question does not have to move one iota to get it. Withholding your vote until you get a good enough candidate is a strategy, albeit a chicken race one. (And in chicken races crashes happen.)

Smaller parties on the side of major parties often play the role of keeping people voting and pulling the agenda. Organisations (churches, unions, etc) play a big role in groups voting as a group and thus being more clear on their demands for voting as well as delivering the votes more effectively. I am under the impression that Thatcher did a lot to kill labor unins?

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 07:54:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good points.  I guess New labour tried too hard to become acceptable to as many as possible and by selling out the Old Labour voters, they lost their base and had to switch to pulling in the middle class vote, trying to steal some off the tories.

Yes Thatcher really trampled on the unions, they lost a lot of power through plenty of anti-union legislation.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 05:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Wales:
The mouthy selfish middle classes?

Yep.

In Wales:

So why aren't working class people getting angrier?

Because they believe they're part of the mouthy middle classes.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 09:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As the graffiti at South Bermondsey station in Sarf Landon had it...

"It doesn't matter who you vote for: the Government always gets in...."

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 05:41:40 AM EST
That's an easy question to answer: it's First Past The Post that makes voting nearly irrelevant.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 08:14:47 AM EST
my $0.02 --

  IRV

  proportional representation

  hand counting, full glasnost

these three items could revitalise democratic process in the apathetic and cynical industrial states.  for that very reason they are opposed tooth and nail by established power, which likes the present somnambulist system very well indeed, ta very much.

voting machine scandals continue unabated in the US, as do vote counting and ballot handling scandals... if I were a UN official I would declare all US elections suspect and bring in the observers.

I keep wondering when some online ISP with an Ebay-like system will announce a whole alternative indie voting system, w/fully open accounting and GPL s'ware, and put all these State governments to shame.  of course, such a system would only count the votes of the privileged few worldwide who have internet access, and certainly there would be immediate blitzkrieg spamming and scamming assaults on it -- but it would be a fabulous (almost Situationist) joke to play on our masters, even so ...


The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Fri Mar 28th, 2008 at 02:18:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People may not vote anymore, but do they still do politics? I reckon that outside of party politics, there is still a large amount of interest in political matters.  People still seem to have views on how the country is run and the things which go on, but there's no belief that parties are the way to change.

I think IS got it right with the statement that it is the political system which is being rejected, regardless of whether Labours shits to the left or shits to the right. Maybe the continue focus on parties and parliament is damaging real politics, in the sense that the other political systems are obscured or seen as merely an appendage.

I would like to see an experiment in direct democracy somewhere in England, just to show how much people will get involved were parties not to stand between them and power.

Member of the Anti-Fabulousness League since 1987.

by Ephemera on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 01:48:47 PM EST
I certainly don't understand why Briton's first impulse in any situation is to address their MEP. For instance, if there is a problem at a school people are more likely to write to their MEP than to the Local Educational Authority.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 02:19:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do they? MEP, not MP? Word.

I know schools can struggle to get governors, which is exactly the sort of low-level involvement a lot of people could do good in. Maybe there is a general disengagement form civic life.

Member of the Anti-Fabulousness League since 1987.

by Ephemera on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 03:13:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean MP, of course.

It'd be nice if the battle were only against the right wingers, not half of the left on top of that — François in Paris
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 at 04:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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