Alcohol and the problem of taste

by Helen
Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 01:37:12 PM EST

There is an interesting article in the Guardian today, Tipping Point whose focus is more on the affect of climate change on viticulture. But buried within it are explanations of problems I have identified, not just in wine, but in beer : The issue of the creeping increase in strength.


This warmer weather will give riper, sweeter grapes, which then become stronger, more alcoholic wines: "post classics" that lack the fine, complex subtle characteristics that are associated with the world's finest wines today. Red wines may be more immediately pleasing to drink, thanks to the lower levels of mouth-drying tannin that has historically been the hallmark of most young bordeaux and barolo, for example, but like the whites, they will lack the fresh bite of acidity that makes wine such a great accompaniment to food.

This paragraph demonstrates the extent of the problem.

Many wine lovers will have already noticed the phenomenon. In the 1991 edition of his seminal book on bordeaux, David Peppercorn recalled that the great reds of the Medoc in the 1940s usually had alcoholic strengths of 11-11.5%. By the late 1980s, he regretted the trend towards 12.5% having become "the norm to be aimed at". In 2005, the norm was closer to 13.5% and critically well-received reds such as Chateau Balthus and Lynsolence weighed in at a whopping 14.5%. In California, where, in 1971, red wines averaged 12.5%, the Martinelli winery now makes a zinfandel with an alcohol content of 17.4%.

So, in the last 25 years bottles of wine seem to be becoming stronger, year by year. Now the issue is that alcohol, like salt in food, gives a bigger, fatter impression of "taste" in the mouth. So a wine that might have seemed average at 11.5% becomes a booming powerful and impressive presence at 13.5 - 14.5%.

When lovers of classic wines that taste the way they did in the 1950s and 1960s have wanted to apportion blame for the fact that their modern counterparts have become bigger, richer and less "elegant" and "austere" - to use the old-fashioned winetaster's vocabulary - they have usually pointed their fingers at the US guru Robert Parker and his favourite winemaker Michel Rolland. Parker, the "emperor of wine" whose opinions shape the destinies and even the pricing policies of the most famous wines in the world, likes the big flavours that are associated with ripe grapes. His tasting notes rarely include words such as "elegant". The bottles that get the highest marks tend to be described as "opulent", "inky" "blockbusters" with "gobs of fruit". That 17.4% Zinfandel was, for example, a wine he particularly liked.

Parker owes his success to the fact that large numbers of people across the world agree with his tastes - or, at the very least, have lost their inclination for the way wines used to be.

Or rather, a big whack of alcohol gives a better impression in the mouth than a weaker wine. And funnily enough, exactly the same happens with beer. When I first started drinking in pubs most beers were 3.5 - 3.8% and strong beers were 4.2 - 4.5%. A 5% beer would be for the occasional bezerker fun.

But as brewery accountants started insisting on cheaper ingredients to improve profitability, the beers began to taste bad. This was especially noticeable with British lager, already an expensive but shoddily produced drink, the lower quality of ingredients produced brews that tasted positively nasty. The option of chilling that allowed American beers such as Budweiser to get away with cheapened ingredients (including rice !!) wasn't really available in a beer culture that (at that time) preferred cool, but never cold drinks. So, they went for adding cheap sugars to increase the brew strength to hide the lousy flaours.

Nowadays in British pubs the strength of average lagers has increased to 5 - 5.5%. Many standard bitters are 4.3 - 4.5% and premium ales will be 5.5%. Beers with a strength below 4% are rarely considered to be quality products and are of generally poor quality (yes, I can list a lot of exceptions, but few are widely available).

So booze is getting stronger, but certainly my impression is that the stronger the beer, the more expensive the ingredients have to be to create a balanced flavour. Yet my view is that, in high volume end of the market particularly, the exact opposite is happening.

So we're drinking poorer quality drinks which hide behind increased alcohol, mostly without realising it. But it tastes good, so why worry ? Well, look at any British high street, the problem of binge drinking has only become paramount in the last 25 years. People have always drunk to excess (I know, I've done my fair share), but the extent to which people are getting utterly incapable is much more than I remember (although culturally it isn't new). And to this I blame the stength of drink.

A sign of manhood in Britain has always been drinking 8 - 10 pints in a session, but now that involves nearly 20 - 30% more alcohol than previously. Humans haven't evolved that quickly and they can't process that increased amount of alcohol any better than their parents could.

We don't need more epxnsive drink, we need weaker drink.

This is probably worth reading alongside the essay 24-hour drinking by In Wales (that's written by, not practised by)

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Helen, if you need something very much stronger, then pop over to my diary ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 01:53:07 PM EST
Cool report!

Know next to nothing on beers or anything related to beer so this report comes in real handy -- what with ET diarists coming to the capital of 400 (???) or so brands beer country.

by The3rdColumn on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:13:57 PM EST
Belgian beers can be a lot stronger than beers elsewhere. I always thought this was traditional - is that true, or is it a recent development as well?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, many traditional belgian beers are stronger than british beers used to be. But you have to bear in mind that they are generally available in much smaller bottles. and the belgians (generally) drink more slowly.

The booze culture of Britain is (still) unknown, tho' you could be misled by their behaviour at beer fests. But the international reputation and awareness of Belgian beer is a phenomenon of the last 20 years, even within Belgium. So, the general availability of their 9 & 10% beers used to be severely restricted. Now you can generally buy trappist beer in any major city on the planet. Yet they aren't really that typical. Most belgian beer, I'd guess, falls between 5 - 6.5%, still stronger than British but srunk in small quantities.

Please note, Stella Artois is not a "traditional" belgian beer; it is a pilsner, ie a copy of a czech beer and dates from 1926. Pilsners form 75% of the Belgian brewing market, but few of them are genuinely quality products. Indeed, when Stella was first sold in Britain, Belgians were telling us that it was generally considered one of the more crap beers in their country. Of such things, global dominance is made.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of my favorite treats when I go to Tokyo is to drink a few bottles of Belgian trappist beer.  There is one, the black Abbeye de Rocs (or something like that), that is just heavenly.  A close second is the black Maredsous, though I can't remember which number that is.

I really miss American micro-brews, though.  The last time I was in LA, the beer selection at a mid-range supermarket nearly made me cry - at least 50 different beers of all types, at quite reasonable prices.  None of them make them over to Japan, though.

by Zwackus on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 02:08:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hate to be picky but yours isn't a trappist beer, it's an Abbaye beer, ie sort of trappist-like but not necessarily.

Only 7 monasteries produce Trappist beer, 6 in Belgium (Orval, Chimay, Westvleteren, Rochefort, Westmalle and Achel) and one in the Netherlands (Koningshoeven). All the rest are Abbaye.

For the beers, the criteria that make them what they are comprise the following:

The beer must be brewed within the walls of a Trappist abbey, by or under control of Trappist monks.

The brewery, the choices of brewing, and the commercial orientations must obviously depend on the monastic community.

The economic purpose of the brewery must be directed toward assistance and not toward financial profit.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 05:54:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I cede to your knowledge.

I've had good Japanese microbrews before, but they are incredibly hard to find.  A couple times, I had some really solid beers from Hokkaido at a traveling "Foods of Hokkaido" fair in Tokyo, and when I was in Nagano I had a quality ale and a good dark beer, both brewed locally.

Chichibu has a local soba (buckwheat) beer, but it's pretty foul.

I've been to a lot of drinking establishments in my little town, and in Tokyo, and I've yet to see any smaller Japanese brews on sale, ever.  I don't really know what it is.  Maybe the big guys have the distributor chains completely locked down or something.  It wouldn't surprise me.

by Zwackus on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 05:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Japan has micro-breweries too. Google them and give us a review.

I had one night in Seoul and found a microbrewery.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 05:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's amazing what marketing can do, isn't it? A few years ago, I was at a restaurant in Plzen, that had lots of the local beers for almost nothing. At about 3-4 times the price they had Heineken...
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 02:15:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't worry. I shall take care of the beer side of things, it's my job :-))

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well you'll need to track down some Trappists in my case, otherwise I'll go with the tannin for my kicks...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:26:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is belgium, the trappists will find you.

If you're coming over a set of Finnish Imperial Stouts will be welcomed. They cost a fortune (£5 - 7) here and have to be reserved for special occasions.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are Finnish Imperial stouts 'Imperial' in the same way as Welsh Imperial vodka is?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 03:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know how Welsh vodka is Imperial, but the Stout was commissioned for the Russian Tsar, Peter the Great

When Peter the Great opened Czarist Russia to the West in the early 18th century, dark ales called "Porter" were all the rage in England. Porters, named after the working class who devoured them, were relatively easy-drinking brews with a small percentage of highly roasted malt. The result was a dark brown, toffee-flavored libation fit for mass consumption. Arthur Guinness took the idea to Ireland, increased the dark, coffee-tinted profile and added "Extra Stout" to his label, thus creating another new beer style.

Peter the Great fell in love with stouts during his 1698 trip to England, and he requested that some be sent to the Imperial court in Russia. Much to the embarrassment of the English, the beer had spoiled somewhere along its tedious thousand-mile journey! Determined as always to save face, the Barclay brewery of London came to the rescue by rapidly increasing the amount of alcohol and hops for their second effort. The result was an inky black concoction with enough warmth and complexity to immediately become a sensation throughout Russia. The "Russian Imperial Stout" had been born and quickly became popular throughout European Russia.

I might quibble with some of that, but the gist is mostly right.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:10:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the difference between a stout and a porter?, and more specifically a "Russian Imperial Stout" (of which I've never heard but am going to run out and get) and something like Baltika 6 (which I like but can't find anywhere around here).

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Porter was originally known as "Entire". A mix of "mild", a fresh, ie not sour, strong low-hopped beer, "Old" which is a beer about 6 months old, I think you're familiar with Duchesse du Borgogne, something like that and "Stale" which is something like a lambic beer, 5 years old at least.

The beer would be dark, sweet and sour and Porters have generally evolved to be kinda sweetish, but the sour component has been phased out for commercial reasons.

Stout evolved from the most alcoholic combinations of Porter, originally being known as Stout (ie  strong) porter. In order to substitute for that fat alcoholic flavour (originally 7 - 9%) the hop rate is very high, resulting in a bitter flavour, a very different beastie from the sweeter porter.

Many craft breweries around the US do an Imperial Stout, I have one at home here to try. In Chicago, Rock Bottom seem to brew an Imperial Stout as do BJ's. Google Chicago and Imperial stout. Without having tried Baltika, I have a lot of respect for American craft brewers and doubt you'll be disappointed.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a place in Ann Arbor, MI that made an Imperial Stout on the premises.  I think it was 10%-12%, and was quite good.
by Zwackus on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 02:10:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I summarised the Belgian styles in my diary In priase of Amber Nektar - Part Duh !

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 08:44:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've always been told that back in ye olden days everyone lived off beer and wine.  Like, they'd get up in the morning and drink a fat mug of beer for breakfast.  Haven't you seen those nutty BBC programs where they take people and have them live like Edwardian families, etc?  Everyone was blotto by noon and behaving improperly.

Maybe the problem is not that we are drinking a higher content of alcohol on the weekends, but that we're not slightly sloshed 24-7 so it's more noticeable when we are.

And don't even dare tell me BBC can't be trusted for an accurate depiction of ye olden days!  If not them, who?!!

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:46:36 PM EST
I've been to a Roman legion camp some months ago and was told they usually had 1 l of wine and 1 l of water for every soldier per day. Seems like a good recipe for being slightly sloshed all the time.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 03:01:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the issue was hygeine. If you drank water you were likely to get something nasty, but if you drank booze you didn't.

Hygeine 1 To make beer, you boil it which kils all known germs.
Hygeine 2 Yeast makes alcohol, which creates an antibiotic environment
Hygeine 3 You add hops, which makes for antiseptic.

Wine has alcohol and tannins, which replicate items 2 & 3.

Water has none of these things and so might be okay, but might not. So, do you drink booze or play russian roulette ? Temperance only took off after tea/coffee arrived, boiling and tannin.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 03:40:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is this a bootlegging recipe of some sort?
by The3rdColumn on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 04:23:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Samuel Pepys diary, 8 flagons of claret was the average daily ration.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 04:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A crisp morning's work methinks. Tho' he was at the very top of society and I imagine, given the transport costs, that claret was extremely expensive back then.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are indications he was an alcoholic

"[H]ere I drank wine upon necessity, being ill for the want of it."


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was an alcoholic in the way people of his time were (see comments above). Water in London came from the Thames and was hawked in the streets by water sellers. No one drank the stuff.

But a "morning draught" would be small beer or not very strong ale, often mulled (the heating process burns off alcohol). I don't think there's much evidence Pepys was sloshed during the long days of hard work he put in at the Navy Office, or that he would think well of anyone who was. He enjoyed drinking beer and wine on leisure and party occasions, though.

The above quote about wine seems more to be about his endless fussiness about his health. He worried about constipation, stomach pains, and wind. Given the very high salted meat and low fibre diet of the time (among people of his class), constipation and associated pains are hardly surprising, but Pepys observed himself minutely, finding that this or that cause - cold, eating at the wrong time, washing his feet - set off the symptoms he dreaded. For example:

20 June 1664

It having been a very cold night last night, I had got some cold, and so in pain by wind; and a sure praecursor of pain, I find, is sudden letting off some farts; and when that stops, then my passages stop and my pain begins.

One of the things he decided "did him good" was to drink wine rather than the standard London fare which was beer, and so he made a good resolution to drink wine. As with others of his good resolutions, he didn't always stick to it. I think this explains the excerpt you quote, rather than a craving or need for alcohol.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 04:25:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, clearly, fermented beverages were much safer than polluted water in providing daily liquid intake.

But Pepys' assumed consumption - based on his household accounts - indicates a high tolerance for alcohol whether binged or consumed French-style. Even if the drinks were low alcohol.

His demanding duties as a top civil servant, the long hours, and his involvement in a lot of other stuff such as the Tangiers Committee do not preclude him from being an alcoholic. In my association with researchers and practioners of alcoholism treatment, I was very surprised by the high proportion of 'decision-makers' who had been still functioning at 15 or more units a day. An alcoholic friend of mine managed to present an entire 6 part TV series on at least a bottle of vodka a day. He is fortunately now dry.

It seems to take about 15 - 20 years of steady drinking for it to become a dominant behaviour. Most of the high-flyers got into real problems in their late 40's after starting stress-related boozing as their careers started to mature in their late 20s. And they could still manage another 10 years of concealment, after alcohol became the dominant behaviour - probably because in hierarchical organizations an alcoholic in a top position is supported by those below.

What worries me is that stressful careers are starting much earlier these days.

However this doesn't explain Pepys ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 04:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Like, they'd get up in the morning and drink a fat mug of beer for breakfast. ..... Everyone was blotto by noon and behaving improperly.

Bad history, they'd drink very weak beers of which you'd have to drink a large amount to get sozzled. It was called small or boy's beer.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the amt. one has to drink to get sozzled is something that varies from person to person.  2 weak beers and I'm sozzled.  8 flagons of claret and I'd be in the morgue.

And I think the very fact of "boy's beer" rather underlines my point.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:09:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, seriously, it's very weak. A content of perhaps 1.5 - 2.5%. Modern low alchohol beers have more than that.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And very often drunk mulled, which evaporates a good deal of the alcohol, see my reply to Sven above.

I don't know the reference to "eight flagons of claret" but a flagon is generally a large vessel or bottle, and I can't believe this is supposed to be a daily dose for one person.

OTOH, until well into the mid-twentieth century, labourers in France consumed several litres of weak wine a day. It was considered "food" for hard physical work. Though they'd "work it off", they'd obviously have a certain constant alcohol level in the bloodstream.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 04:45:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great diary - although you have given me an argument to use next time you accuse me of drinking too slowly.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 04:37:32 PM EST
different permit. A lot of neighborhood bars were like this, and the beer was not just less alcoholic but also much much cheaper. We'd go to the one near my house and shoot billiards and the pints were $2.00, and on Mondays, $1.00.

Alas, there are very few of these places left. The move to refurbish everything in this country over the past decade has taken such "old-fashioned" places out, and "upgraded" them to "beer and wine" licenses, the stronger stuff, and in some cases, full bars. Of course much more expensive.

When the one a block from my house went full bar, I quit going. So did most of my mates. Of course, we were replaced by a much more free spending crowd, to the benefit of the new owners, which was perhaps the goal. There are many colleges (three within a mile) in the area, so beer on a credit card is more profitable than two dollars cash.

No great loss. Truth be told, most of the time, I hate being drunk, and with the 5.5% beer that most stuff it is, I don't get too many pints before becoming stupid. 8-10 pints? I'd be catatonic, but then usually I'm clocking in at 78-80 kg, as opposed to maybe your average 8-10 pint drinking englishman, so that probably doesn't help.

There's always near beer...

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 08:41:25 AM EST
Now I understand why American beer needs to be served chilled...
by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 11:06:07 AM EST
The worst aspect of this practice is that practically frozen beer is now a cultural norm, even when the beer is of high quality. You get a freezing glass of beer that you have to hold between your legs for 15 minutes till you can taste it, by which time other quality aspects, such as carbonation, have deteriorated.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 11:56:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds much like champagne but in the reverse -- drink it chilled it's fine, drink it tepid and it's ghastly!
by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 12:54:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, it feeds into my suspicion that champagne isn't often particularly good wine.

Just add bubbles (changes the taste profile considerably) and tell the punters to serve blooming cold and they'll never tell the difference {laughs all way to bank}

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good champagne is good wine. Cheap champagne isn't.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bad champagne isn't good wine. It's normally, but not always, the cheap stuff.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agree!
by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:18:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not quite Hellen -- like beer (from what you say), there's bad and good champagne, bubbles or no bubbles.
by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe, but I can't possibly afford to run the risk of a speculative purchase of a bottle of a wine type I don't normally like to find out if I like it.

All I know is that I have tasted 30 - 40 euro champagne and didn't like it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which brings us back to the thread title :)

Alcohol and the problem of taste

by The3rdColumn on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's easily done. I've been less than impressed by bottles in that range. And I've had nice stuff that was cheaper by far.

There's also issues of variety and target market that I'm not competent to comment on: some is specially targeted not to offend the delicate tastes of the pure conspicuous consumer.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This reminds me that industrial capitalism (and whatever we have now) doesn't really provide much choice, per se.

There tends to be a number of brands on offer, but they don't differ all that much.

Reminds me of mobile phone plans.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 12:48:35 PM EST
Actually, I wonder what it is that restricts the choices so much.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 12:50:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Diversity is expensive. There's numerous and expensive ways of making beer taste different, but all cheap methods end up in similar places.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 12:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but why the convergence on cheap but low quality? It is just the same process as the total disaster in the food industry?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 12:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the dichotomy between high-volume low-margin and low-volume high-margin. Most of the volume is low quality, low price and low margin.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 12:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Market research and management types with MBAs. If you don't know much about a business it is easier to compete for the large mainstream market than it is to carve a niche market.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 12:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In part, but it's also to do with the financing models.

Fundamentally, banks and equity markets don't want to hear about niche market companies. Sure banks lend to small businesses, but largely to ones who follow traditional business models.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 01:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that the same issue of lack of specific industry knowledge coupled with management conventional wisdom?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 03:42:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reminds me of mobile phone plans.

grr...it's all right there in a nutshell, more complex finessing, less choices masquerading as more, scam city.

it's apparently cheaper to spend less on the product, and more on the ads telling us the quality is great...and we suck it up, mostly.

There are no blank spots on the map any more, anywhere on earth. You want a blank spot on the map, you gotta leave the map behind. Jon Krakauer

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2008 at 03:40:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Melo - haven't you noticed? It's cheaper to fix the mind of the consumer than it is to fix the product ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Mar 6th, 2008 at 09:05:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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